Empire: World History - 262. Berlin Blockade: Airlift Across The Iron Curtain (Ep 2)

Episode Date: June 9, 2025

When was Checkpoint Charlie created in Berlin? What triggered Stalin to enact a blockade on West Berlin? And how did the Western powers airlift over 2.3 million tons of supplies to their occupied zone of the city from 1948 to 1949? William and Anita are joined once again by Giles Milton, author of Checkmate in Berlin: The Cold War Showdown That Shaped the Modern World, to discuss the Berlin Blockade, the Berlin Airlift, and the way in which the Iron Curtain hardened towards the end of the 1940s. ----------------- Empire Club: Become a member of the Empire Club to receive early access to miniseries, ad-free listening, early access to live show tickets, bonus episodes, book discounts, our exclusive newsletter, and access to our members’ chatroom on Discord! Head to empirepoduk.com to sign up. For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com.  ----------------- Email: [e-mail] Instagram: @empirepoduk  Blue Sky: @empirepoduk  X: @empirepoduk Assistant Producer: Becki Hills Producer: Anouska Lewis Senior Producer: Callum Hill Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you want access to bonus episodes reading lists for every series of Empire, a chat community. Discounts for all the books mentioned in the week's podcast, add free listening and a weekly newsletter, sign up to Empire Club at www.mptopoduk.com. Hello and welcome. What? What are you doing? What are you doing? Is this a clue?

I'm not going on me to go do it. Of course not. No, no, I think you should do it. now that was weird. No, no, no. It's not how we normally do it. Hello and welcome to Empire with me, Anita Arndt, and apparently an uprising from you, William Dalrymple. I just tried to do the intro and I got put firmly back in my place. So previously on this podcast, we have been in the company of the the uprising. Before the South West London Spring, as we now call it.

Bloody hell. We were in the company of the very patient, it turns out, and brilliant Charles Milton, author of the, I cannot recommend this book more highly. It's such a good book. Checkmate in Berlin. It is a rip-roaring ride. And if you haven't heard the episode before this, go back and listen because it is wonderful. A host of characters. And I've said this sort of before, history often presents you with people that a fiction editor would say, go back and rewrite this, this is not believable. This is not a convincing argument that a person like this could exist. This person could not possibly exist. No, so go and do it again.

Anyway, Giles, just to remind people, in the last episode, very briefly, we were talking about the way in which the allies, the progeny, if you like, of the big three at Yalta, are enacting the will of that conference and it is actually in the spirit of the conference because they're all at each other's throats almost from the get-go. There are some horrific things that have happened in Berlin

and it culminated in the decision of Stalin to enforce a blockade on Berlin. Now, we should actually just say what this means to the people of Berlin. Yes, also why he decided at that particular moment to do that because, I mean, obviously now it's part of history, but it wasn't perhaps inevitable, was it?

it would be said. No. So what's happened is that the city of Berlin has been divided into eastern west. The Soviets run the east of the city. The Western powers, the British, the French, and the most importantly, the Americans control the Western sector of the city. And over the course of three years from 1945 to 1948, the divisions between these erstwhile allies during the war have become deeper and deeper. The police forces have split into two effectively rival forces, one in the Soviet sector, one in the Western sector. The city assembly has split into two as well. But the crunch, I think, really comes in the spring of 1948, when the Western Allies introduce a new currency into West Germany. The currency in Germany, and particularly in Berlin,

is worthless. And so it's all, everything is carried on by barter, cigarettes, chocolate, silk stockings. That is what is being used to buy stuff. And the West realises they've got to bring in a new currency, they bring in the Deutsche Mark. Originally, they're not going to introduce into Berlin. Then they do. Stalin responds. He brings in what becomes known as the Ostmark. And so you now have two rival currencies to go along with the rival police forces and rival assemblies.

It's an untenable situation. And Stalin, who for the last three years, has had his greedy eyes on the Western sectors of Berlin. I think he decides, right, now is the moment to start. strike. Charles, we're used to this idea of East Berlin being sort of poor and impoverished and full of crappy cars and sort of West Berlin being full of Mercedes and richer. Is there any sense two years in that this is already beginning to look different, that the East and the West have got very different levels of prosperity? Or is that not clear yet? No, that's definitely not clear at this point. There's nothing in any of the shops. And in fact, either way. Yes. In terms of food,

probably there's more food in the Soviet sector than there is in the Western sectors. And Stalin, he knows this and he realised this is a very strong point in his favour that traditionally Berlin was always fed by the farmland that lies to the east of the city. In Pomerania and places like that. Bomerania, exactly, places like that. And so he realizes, okay, so the Western sectors are dependent on food that comes from Soviet-held territory. And so, you know, this is where he thinks, well, if I were to cut that off,

the population of West Berlin would starve, you know. There's nothing the Western allies will be able to do about this. So he hatches this, great plan. We're going to effectively create a medieval siege situation. Imagine a medieval castle. You pulled up the drawbridges. The people inside cannot get any food in. And what's his public excuse?

Why does he say he's doing this? Well, the excuse is the currency reform that the Deutsche Mark has been brought in. But that's, frankly, I mean, that is one reason. But, you know, he's been eyeing this up as a possibility. for some time. He thinks this is now the moment to strike. And again, I mean, we'll just have a little brief look over our shoulder because one man is warned that this is coming all along. And he was sort of like Cassandra at the altar conference and he remains that. And that's Churchill, who in 1946 makes his famous Iron Curtain speech, just throw back a little bit before the blockade

was a thing, just one year into this sharing of Berlin and the carving up. He's in America, he's with Truman, happens to be with the bowtied car salesman, Truman, soft-sooping him all. whatever it is that Truman complains about smarming up to him. He's lost the election, but he's still been invited to go over and has this sort of heroes welcome. He's very popular in America. And he does this warning that, you know what, something really rotten this way comes. And I'm trying to find the actual wording of this. I've got the quote here, from Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic.

An iron curtain. You do it, Giles. You've got the voice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I think you need to do it in Churchill. From Steading in the Baltic, to Trieste in the Adriatic, an iron curtain has descended over the continent. Very good. Your audition for the movie.

Publicly, certainly, the front-facing thing is, you know, no, we're going to make it work. We're going to make it work. But there are increasing numbers of people who are saying, you know what, this is never going to work. So you've got, on February the 22nd, 1946, you've got the American ambassador to Moscow, George F. Kenan, who has this famous long telegram that he writes, saying, the Soviet Union's is in a state of perpetual hostility towards the West. We cannot trust them. We must prepare when they move against us. And this will then shape foreign policy thereafter.

But still, does it come as a surprise when the blockade actually happens and Stalin actually fronts up to the West? Just to very briefly rewind to that famous speech by Churchill. This speech caused shockwaves around the world. In Whitehall and Washington, the idea was to try. to keep this Allied alliance together, you know. And Churchill stands up on a world stage and basically says the man who he was toasting as Stalin the Great

only a year earlier has now become public enemy number one. His speech causes uproar around the world. And Truman is asked by journalists, you know, what the hell are you doing allowing Churchill to make this speech in your own, you know, hometown? And Truman, who'd read every word of the speech, said, I'd never said, I didn't know what he was going to say. I'm no idea. I'm as shocked as you are. It's shocking. But anyway, but to talk about George

Kenan, as you mentioned, he's a diplomat in the American embassy in Moscow. He's been there for years. He knows Stalin well. And actually, this long telegram is really crucial in turning foreign policy on its head in America because he says, and I quote from the long telegram, one line, Soviet power is impervious to the logic of reason and highly sensitive to. the logic of force. And this is going to become incredibly important. This is the whole policy of containment, containing the Soviet power, but also holding on to those Western sectors of Berlin. But also, it becomes the very foundation of what will become NATO, that you have to show force. The only thing that will make this man back down is a show of force. And that Kenan

Telegram is utterly transformative. I would suggest not just of American foreign policy, but everybody's foreign policy in the West. I mean, the crisis in Berlin, which we're about to come onto, is what leads to the foundation of NATO. I mean, there's a direct connection between the two. And of course, the central tenet of NATO being an attack on one is an attack on all. And this goes to the point made by both Kennan and Frank Howling Mad Howley, that the Soviets will only dare to attack when they think they have overwhelming force.

This is obviously why we are interested in doing this mini-series now, because now that NATO is under the scanner, now that Trump is calling into question whether this is a useful alliance for America. This is a moment when we examine how it all began. So we're here in Berlin now. Charles, tell us what happens next. And I think it's worth giving we're on a podcast called Empire. I think it's just worth reminding ourselves that this is a big clash of ideas that's taking place here in Berlin. Listen to Sir Brian Robert. who's in charge of the British sector of Germany, he says, we are empire builders, he says, the empire whose boundaries we struggle to extend is the empire of true democracy, the empire of peace, the empire of dignity. So now we are presented with a real clash between Soviet ideology and the ideology of the free world. We're now in 1948, it's realized that the allies really have to hold on to the Western sectors of Berlin. We should perhaps put this into

the context that 19848 of course means one year after the British have left India. And it's it while the British are in the process of abandoning Palestine. So one empire is very much going down at this point. While they're trying to shore up the ruin of another.

But what I'm really interested in is how easy it is to blockade the western sector of Berlin. Because was nobody ever fussed about the fact that there was one main road and one main railway that could completely cut off the whole of the Western sector and starve them out. I mean, was nobody screaming that logistically this is a real problem and that logistically, you know, we're surrounded by Soviet territory and we need to have a plan B earlier than the actual blockade?

It's absolutely extraordinary. It never sort of ceases to amaze me that some of these conferences. Someone doesn't say, hold on a minute, that's not going to work, because if this happens, then this happens, you know. And so you're right, there was one autobahn leading from Western Germany into West Berlin. There was one railway line leading from Western Germany into West Berlin. And of course, some of the Allies had feared the Western Allies was that Stalin would shut these off and say, right, you're not using those anymore. And that means you've got two and a half million Berliners. You've got about six and a half thousand allied troops. And And they have got access to nothing, no food, no fuel, no supplies, you know.

And this siege, this blockade is going to be more than just cutting the railway line and the autobahn. Stalin's going to cut off electricity. He's going to cut off the water supply. He's going to cut off the gas supply. He's really pulling up the drawbridges and leaving West in Berlin completely isolated. So there's the success with which this happens. And then you get cold feet. I mean, there are sources that suggest. The Americans were thinking of hauling ass out of there, as they would say, and pulling out. But it is that man Hawley, who we talked about a lot in the last episode, Howlin Mad, Frank Howley, who says, I'm not going anywhere. Are you crazy? You think I'm going to leave these 2.4 million people to starve, cut off from all food, because Stalin does not

care about them. He doesn't care if they starve to death, their collateral damage. That's absolutely right. And Howley's really fighting against the entire sort of bureaucracy of Washington, there's a growing feeling that they have to pull out of their Western sectors. There's a growing thing. There's an untenable situation. There's no way they'll be able to hold on, short of forcing, you know, battalions of tanks across, you know, Soviet-occupied eastern Germany and forcing a way into the city, into the Western sectors. And they realize, well, that's going to be World War III. And no one wants that. And so the feeling really is, yes, we're going to have to pull out. But you're right. Colonel Frank Howley,

is saying absolutely no way we're not pulling out, and we've got to find a way around this problem of feeding two and a half million people. So that is where the idea of an airlift, a bonkers idea, a mad idea, something that it just seems so insane that anyone would even countenance, breaking a blockade from the sky. Who comes up with the idea that we will drop supplies from the air? Well, you know, when you're in a time of crisis, it's time to summon the expertise of a good old-fashioned English boffin.

And that is exactly what Air Commodore Reginald Rex Waite. We're suddenly in a kind of 1940s patriotic film here. Bring on the Barnes-Wallace of Berlin. Well, he was. I mean, he was obsessed with maths, applied math. So he loves logarithms and algebraics and all this sort of stuff. And he sits down and he works out. He says, okay, so in West Germany, there are eight air bases, and in western sectors of Berlin,

there are two airports. And he works out, it's just about possible if you have enough planes and you fly them in at sort of 90-second intervals around the clock, you can just about supply the population of Berlin with what they need. And what do they need? Frank Howley has already worked this out. The absolute minimum subsistence level for Berlin is four and a half thousand tons of food, a day, 6,000 tonnes of coal a day. Now, they've only got access to C-47 decoters, and they can carry two and a half tons each time they fly into Berlin. So you realise that to bring in four and a half thousand tons, or almost 10,000 tons of stuff, you need an awful lot of decoaters. And so Reginald-presenters to his British overlords. They say, don't be ridiculous, Reg, you know,

get back to the maths in your study. But just one point on why they think it's ridiculous, It's because, you know, this mathematician's brilliant idea is that you have to fly, almost six flights simultaneously at different altitudes, you know, and they'll just land. You know, they'll just like, one, one, they're barely off the tarmac and another one will come in. It just seems completely illogical. It's logical on paper, they say, Reg, good job. But hang on, six different altitudes coming in at 90 second intervals. What on earth, how do you think that we're going to manage this?

Yeah, and also, while we're at it, Reginald, what about the fog that deflects Berlin all the time? What about the snowstorms that come in every winter? You're right, on paper, it was a work of genius. But actually, you know, in practicality, it was, everyone said it's not going to work. So eventually it's presented to Frank Howley. Eventually, it goes all the way up to Truman. And Truman by this has, you know, come out with his Truman doctrine, this idea of containing Soviet power. We've got also the Marshall Plan, which we can touch on, which is rebuilding the German economy and other economies. And so Truman says, look, let's give it a go. the American Air Force could do anything, lads, let's give it a go.

And what begins at that point is one of the most remarkable logistical exercises, I think, in history. I think a lot of people have always found that Berlin to be a rather unsexy topic to write about. But it's absolutely extraordinary. The Americans bring in planes from every plane they have, from Honolulu, Hawaii, from Alaska. Everything is shipped to Germany.

And the British as well comes in from India, comes in from the Pacific Islands. they just congregate. I mean, it's got a real D-Day feeling. You know, it's got a real like little boats, but here, big planes from everywhere we can get them. Just come one, come all, we need all of you, and you need to report right now. Yeah.

And it's, you know, when the Americans do things, particularly, they do things on such a grand scale. You know, they don't bring in 50 pilots. They bring in sort of 10,000 or 20,000 pilots. And these planes, they're remarked, these are all survivors from the Second World War. They've still got their camouflage markings from North Africa on them. They've got their D-Day landing stripes painted on them.

They're battered. They're dented and everything, but everything is brought into Germany to begin the greatest siege-busting airlift in history. Can I also just say another bit of kudos to Howley, who I may be a little bit in love with. I think I am. So he also comes up with this idea of, you know, to maximise the cargo on these things. You know, if we need fruit and vegetables, they're quite heavy, we'll dehydrate them, which is kind of a revolutionary thought from a man who is in military uniform. but as you say, quite a complicated mind, who went to the Solvon as well. It's extraordinary.

I mean, they get round so many problems. Like salt was a real problem. They needed to bring salt into the city. If you put salt into cargo planes, all the electricity, the wiring rot, and your plane doesn't work anymore. So they use Sundner flying boats, which are used to flying on the sea

or taking off and landing on the sea, they can bring in salt, you know. So every problem is going to be surmounted. Is there a lake? Where do the flying boats last? Yeah, Berlin's full of lakes, so they can land all over the place. Yeah, that's not a problem.

Yeah. You also need somebody sort of nutty enough to make this come true. And let's bring in General Tunner here, because this guy is sort of a legend for doing the impossible air drop, isn't he? I mean, he's made his name flying over the Himalayas and dropping cargo in places. The hump. Tell us about the hump. The hump lift is such a great thing. He's a great character.

General Bill Tunnage Tunner. He's known. Tunnage Tunner. Tonege. He's the man you need at this point. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

So during the war, yeah, he's become famous for the hump. So what he's doing, he's been flying weapons, explosives and munitions into the forces of control by Chiang Kai Sheck in China. And this was a remarkably difficult and dangerous flight, because essentially you have to fly over the Himalayas with a plane laden with extremely heavy equipment and firepower. And so this became, this was the hump. The worst, the highest of the Himalayas were the hump. But tonnage just, you know, he didn't take no for an answer. And so anything he was told to do, he would do. And so when in Washington, they're thinking,

now who could we get to run this airlift into Berlin? Notter will do this. Well, which we get to exactly, which nutter will do this? Oh, let's call Tunnage, you know. So Tunnage gets a summons to Washington, said, can you fly, you know, a ridiculous number of planes into Berlin at six different altitudes, flying through thick flog and snowstorms landing every 96 seconds?

Tunnage goes, yeah, I think I can do that. And so he arrives in Western Germany and he orchestrates this truly remarkable operation. And remember what's at stake. It's not just the lives of two and a half million Berliners six and a half thousand allied soldiers, but the prestige and the ideology of the West is at stake here. So there is an awful lot hanging on this in the post-war world. Now, look, let's take a break and let's find out what impact this has, this cracker's idea of just keeping Berlin fed, despite Stalin's best efforts to squeeze the life out of it, how it works out and what impact it has on actually the politics that we face today.

So welcome back. We should talk about what life is like under the blockade, first of all. Until they get their act together, people really are on the brink of starvation again in Berlin, aren't they? It's terrible. I mean, there's no food, there's no running water. The sewage plants have ceased to. work because Stalin's cut off the electricity supply, so the sewage bubbling into the rivers and lakes around Berlin. The electricity has been cut off, so the water purification systems which pull water out of the ground for Berliners, they've stopped working. But above all, everyone is starving, they're hungry. For fuel, they start chopping down trees. These wonderful sort of 200-year-old, 300-year-old trees in the Tiergarten are all felled to provide fuel. It's a desperate situation. and the realisation is, well, can the airlift?

In the summer months, it can probably bring in just about enough food to keep people alive. We're talking subsistence rations, you know. But what's going to happen in the autumn and the winter when the fogs and the snowstorms start? That's the big concern. We've got another great character we should talk about, and this is Ernst Reuter, who is the mayor of West Berlin? Is that his title? He's been elected by the city assembly.

When life was slightly happier in Berlin, he's been elected as the mayor of the whole city. But the Soviets simply refused to have Ernst Reuter. It's a hated figure by the Soviets. They refuse to have him as mayor. So he eventually ends up as mayor of the western part of the city, but not of the east. And that's because he's a very steadfast opponent of the Soviet system, isn't he? Anti-Bolshevich. Yeah, but he's particularly dangerous to the Soviets. Because look at his past. Ernst Reuter was previously a communist. He knew Lenin. He knew Stalin. He lived in Moscow, he fled Nazi Germany. He knows these guys and then he turned and he became a nice willy liberal. And this makes him an extremely alarming and worrying figure for the Soviet authorities

because this guy understands them. And once he's become this willy liberal supporting Western democracy in Berlin and in Germany, he becomes a formidable enemy. And one of the things that Ernst Reuter has is a remarkable figure for is his oratory. He looks very unremarkable. when you see a photo of him. Oh, he sort of wears that little sort of French resistance cap. And he looks like, you know, he carries... Bery. Yeah.

Bery, that's the word. And he carries Werther's original in his, you know, sort of cardigan. He looks like that kind of man. He does. But then, you know, the Allied commanders who met him, they said, my God, when he's coming to his presence, it's like another Churchill, you know. And he was great in a small room, but put him in front of a million people, put him on the Reichstag balcony and get him to speak to a million people.

And he starts delivering these. extraordinary speeches. Can I give you a couple of lines? Yes, 100%. Because Ernst Reuter knows he's not only speaking to the people of Berlin. He is speaking on a world stage. This is going to be transmitted across the Western world. And listen to this. He says that one of his speeches, we cannot be bartered, we cannot be negotiated, we cannot be sold. Whoever would surrender the people of Berlin would surrender a world. People of the world look upon this city. You cannot. You must not. You must not forsake us. So these words are sent around the globe and they're electrifying in their effect. So, I mean, you know, his words outwardly are one of the reasons that things like the Berlin

airlift or even countenance, because he's telling the world very, very clearly, you abandon us, you might as well abandon all of Europe. But also internally, he's telling, you know, his Berliners, do not give up. They are a menace. They want to kill you. So it sort of galvanises, you know, internal public opinion as well as provoking the conscience of external public opinion in other countries. Let's get back to the airlift. I've always wondered... How do the Soviets react? Yeah, why don't they just shoot the planes out of the sky? They could, but they don't, but why don't they? This is a very good question, which the Americans and Brits kept asking themselves is, how will Stalin respond to this? What they do is they set up blinding searchlights at the end of the runways.

Remember, the sexes are very close to each other. So they send up trace of fire into the air all the time. What they don't do, and what the Americans and British are gambling on is that Stalin won't dare shoot them out of the sky. He'll do everything he can to make them crash, but he won't actually shoot them out of the sky because that will be an act of war. So an act of war, so what is his calculus here? Because, you know, if it was an act of war, he doesn't want a shooting war. But he's still got the upper hand here. You know, he's got the territory. He's got, you know. He thinks, Anita, that he is going to win. Now, Stalin has made a study, a very careful study of the siege of Stalingrad. The Luftwaffe, which had enough planes to resupply the American, the German

army in Stalingrad simply could not make that airlift work. It failed and of course, Stalin said. Staling said. He famously held on. So he thinks they're just going to screw up on their own. He doesn't need to do it. There's absolutely no way that they're going to be able to carry this through, particularly a long-running airlift which runs through the winter months. I mean, it works. It works. It keeps people fed. And then what happens after it's sort of proven to work? Does the blockade get lifted? What does Stalin do? Because he's been confounded. This is no Starlingrad. There's one little detail which is worth building into this, which is the propaganda war that's taking place, because the Americans are acutely conscious of they can win a

propaganda battle here. And this comes about when one of the pilots, Gail Halverson, starts dropping little bags of sweets, candies, down to starving children, down, you know, who congregate around the runways on the ground. And these children start writing thank you letters to this unknown pilot. And Gail Halverson's hauled into his commanding officer's study one day. And he thinks, oh my God, I'm going to be court-martialed, I've done something really bad here. His commandant officer shows him the front page of a newspaper, which shows a picture of beaming German children munching on American sweets and candies that have been dropped by Gail Halverson. And they realize this is a fantastic propaganda coup here. What do they do?

Far from stopping it or court-martial and Gail Halverson, they say, do it in the Soviet sector. Let's drop candies and sweets onto starving German children in the Soviet sector as well, which of course goes down particularly badly with the Soviet talk about. Well, they must be livid. They must be absolutely furious. I mean, what do they do? Do they come and snatch lollipops out of crying children's hands? This is capitalist. Give me that capitalist liquorish. You're not having any of that. No, they were furious, but there's nothing they could do. It was a brilliant propaganda victory on the part of the Americans at. That's fabulous. Okay. So how long does this airlift go on for? And what is then the resolution of the blockade? Does it just fizzle? Does it end dramatically? What happens? Is there a crisis point? I mean, at one point, I remember you writing about the Soviet aircraft buzzing allied aircraft that, you know, looks like they are going to attack them. But it doesn't actually happen.

Well, a lot of planes crash. I mean, let's not forget that 79 airmen die in the airlifts. So there's all sorts of problems, particularly when the weather turns bad. And as you mentioned, I mean, a particularly notorious case of a Soviet yak plane, buzzing an allied plane, getting too close and actually knocking its wing off, causing it to crash and everyone is killed. So there is a price to pay for this airlel. It lasts for 323 days. And by the time we get to Easter, 1949, the Allies have cracked it. They're bringing in, you know, you'll remember that number. They need a minimum of 4,500 tonnes a day. By Easter 49, they're bringing in 12,000 tonnes a day. And I think behind the scenes, so Stalin realizes that the Allies have effectively won this. They've cracked the blockade and behind the scenes.

And it's all done in secret in the corridors of power in Washington negotiations. start taking place to end the siege? Because don't forget, not only is Stalin besieging the Western sectors of Berlin, but what the Western allies have done, as far as they can, they're blockading not just East Berlin, but they're also blockading supplies going into East Germany from West Germany, all part of the reparations that Stalin is due under the agreement struck at Yalta. And so I think Stalin realizes he's a realist, he's a pragmatist, he realizes probably time to back down out of this, I'm not going to win. And thus begin these negotiations behind the scenes.

And on the 12th of May, 1949, after 323 days, it is announced that the blockade is lifted. The Western allies are free to use the Autobahn and the railway again. And, you know, there's this wonderful moment where the cars, the lorries, the jeeps, the trains, everything, begin pouring back into Berlin laden with supplies. It's a great moment of triumph for the Western democracies, in fact. I mean, they've dared to do this airlift and they've been proven victorious. There is a rather sweet vignette that takes place because Howley, who has just been steadfast and loyal to his post and position and the reason that he was there, ends up having a farewell drink because his work is kind of done after the blockade is lifted with his nemesis, Sergei Kotikov.

Now, describe it to us because you've had unprecedented. to all of this primary source material. How does this drink go? So they've fallen out, you know, and they're virtually not speaking to each other, but they have this kind of valedictory cocktail party. And even at this point where they're all meant to be, you know, sort of friends for the final time, the final meeting, Howley is thinking, how can I get one up on Kotikov? And so he says to Kotikov, Kotikov's about to take a glass of champagne. And Howley says, Howley, knowing that Kotikov has got terrible stomach ulcers, says, why don't you have a martini, vodka martini?

And Coticoffi said, I've never had one of those. What's that like? Howley says, very, very good, you know. So he downs one of these, then downs another one, then downs one. And then he clutches his stomach in absolute agony. And Howley relishes this moment. You know, he's caused his enemy untold pain from these four vodka martinis that he drinks. Yeah.

No, on a more serious note, we should talk about the legacy of this whole experience. Because we touched on this. it has taught the Western powers. They believe now the warnings from Churchill, from Kenan, from others that, you know what, Stalin doesn't attack strength. And so now we need to have a new club. The United Nations is not enough. They also have a position on the United Nations.

They have power of veto. Everything that Roosevelt gave them makes the United Nations not a strong enough forum for us to avoid situations like this in the future. So can you just talk us through the transition from this experience in Berlin to actually what we have now. The formation of NATO. NATO. Well, you're absolutely right in setting that out. The powers that be in the West, they realize we need something stronger to combat,

to keep this policy of containment and to, you know, bring a halt to any future Soviet adventurism into Eastern Europe. And they sit around a table and think, well, we've got to have some sort of defence pact and thus, you know, in the aftermath of the Berlin blockade is born NATO. And in its first incarnation, what is it? I mean, is it born fully formed in the form we note now, or how does it begin? No, it begins with a small group of countries, which will become ever bigger. And in fact, the key moment, I think, in NATO is when the Federal Republic, so West Germany, joins in the 50s.

And this is a sort of red rag to a bull for the Soviets who respond to that. Rather like the Ukrainians at the moment, the same sort of idea, exactly. So they respond with the Warsaw Pact, that's what they do. Yes, they respond by forming the Warsaw Pact. And this sets a seem for the next few decades, you know, that you have these two rival blocks at each other's throats. And of course, they will remain at each other's throats in Berlin, because the Berlin Wall is then going to be built in 1961. You have the famous checkpoint Charlie, one of the crossing points between West and East Berlin. And it is the great standoff.

This is the point where, you know, American and British soldiers can literally look into the eyes of their Soviet counterparts just a few metres away. And, Jalz, do you think we're now at the end of that process? Do you think NATO is dissolving in front of us now that what was created in the aftermath of the airlift is being undone by Trump? Or do you think it's still got legs? It could have legs. It's very difficult to know. We're in such a fluid situation at the moment. But I like to think that Howley's sort of valedictory words ring true for Ukraine, certainly at the moment. Whenever Russia attempts an adventure into another country, they must be resisted with every force that we possess in the West. And I think if Howley was in charge of things at the moment,

the story in Ukraine and on the border with Russia would be a very different one indeed. We need Howley back. We do. And I just put another thing. I mean, I often, I do a phone in and I often get calls from people who say, you know what, this was not Russia's doing. You know, it was the West that formed NATO. It was the West that has pushed up against agreed borders. How much is that based in any fact that you know and understand? I mean, it is completely prevalent in Putin's Russia, but also sort of in those former Soviet republics. These days, how strong is that feeling now that, you know what, this is all NATO is doing. They all gang together. They were bullies. And of course, you know, Russia, stroke Soviet Union, stroke whatever iteration,

will come to pass in the future, has every right to do. defend itself. Yeah, I mean, I sort of think that's nonsense, really. I mean, you know, you take my guys going back to the 40s. You know, these guys have lived in Moscow. They knew the system very well. They knew Stalin personally very well. They knew that wherever he could expand, he would expand. And of course, you know, look at Putin. It's a recreation of the old Russian Empire. That's what he's seeking to do. And, you know, the answer in the 1940s was to gang up together in the West, form a block so powerful that the Soviets wouldn't dare to make any territorial incursions, you know. Now, the problem nowadays, as we can all see, is when you have NATO where

Trump and America is, you know, increasingly an unwilling partner. Where do we go with that? It's very difficult to know, I think. And one which, moreover, sees Russia as its friend, another Christian country, as they imagine it, with family values, none of these liberals that you get in the West. And let's be quite cynical about it, a massive market for America. American goods as well. And a massive market of American goods. Yeah, exactly. I think it's a very crucial turning point at the moment. Yeah, I mean, I know this is not your thing, but I'm going to make it your thing. Is NATO going to survive, do you think? Has it gone through crises like this in the past, or is this unprecedented? And is this the end for NATO? Well, I think that's a question for

Europe. It will survive if Europe believes in it and wants to make it survive. But that's going to require, you know, sacrifices on everyone's part, because it's all about money, investment, re-arming. But surely it's not Giles about Europe. It is finally if Trump wants to make a reprashment with Putin and if he regards Putin as more his kind of guy than these wet liberals that he sees in Europe, he can claps it from his side. It isn't Europe's unilateral decision. That'll be one-hand clapping. No, but something might well be reborn out of that. Right of NATO. Yeah. So America may be no longer part of it, but the European powers, Canada, other democracies might pull something out of a hat.

Well, I mean, they're meeting, you know, they've met a number of times already talking about maybe a European Defence Force or something like that. So watch this space, you know. Well, maybe in a few years' time, we'll have you back on to talk about these unprecedented days that we're living through right now. I think it's one of the most extraordinary stories of how America came to see Russia as its friend. This all began with Pat Buchanan and the evangelical Christians.

and they, as long ago as five or six years ago, Anne Auperbaum was writing about these guys seeing Putin as their better friend. And it's a complete revolution. It's a very, very interesting moment. But anyway, in this podcast and in this series, we have looked at how, first of all, the United Nations, then NATO were formed, the creation of this world. And we're going to go on in the future to look at the other areas that Trump is upending.

We're going to be looking at Canada, the history of Canada, We're going to look at the Panama Canal. And first, next week, we're going to look at Greenland. So we're going way back to the Vikings next. And Eric the Red's voyage to discover new lands in the West. So until then, it's goodbye from me, William Durimple. And it's goodbye for, well, no, before I say goodbye, I'm just going to once again plug Jiles' fantastic book.

It is called Checkmate in Berlin. If you're watching this on YouTube, this is the book. It is absolutely brilliant. the First Battle of the Cold War. Charles Milton, thank you very, very much for being with us. And come again, please, soon. Thank you for having me on again. And it's goodbye from me, Anita Arnon.

Goodbye.