Empire: World History - 274. Pirates of Panama: Francis Drake Strikes Spain's Empire (Part 2)

Episode Date: July 21, 2025

Who was Captain Morgan, and why is a spiced rum named after him? How did a Welsh buccaneer lead an attack on the heart of Spain’s empire in Panama? How did Elizabeth I fund Francis Drake’s first slaving voyage?  William and Anita are joined once again by historian and archaeologist Mark Horton to discuss pirate raids in Panama in the 1600s. Empire Club: Become a member of the Empire Club to receive early access to miniseries, ad-free listening, early access to live show tickets, bonus episodes, book discounts, our exclusive newsletter, and access to our members’ chatroom on Discord! Head to empirepoduk.com to sign up. For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com. Email: [e-mail] Instagram: @empirepoduk Blue Sky: @empirepoduk X: @empirepoduk Assistant Producer: Becki Hills Producer: Anouska Lewis Executive Producer: Neil Fearn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you want access to bonus episodes reading lists for every series of Empire, a chat community. Discounts for all the books mentioned in the week's podcast, add free listening and a weekly newsletter, sign up to Empire Club at www.mparpoduk.com. Hello and welcome to Empire with me, Anita Arnan. And me, William Duremberg. And this episode, There'll Be Pirates. Let me tell you, there'll be pirates. I know you love hearing. from us about pirates. We did that three ships series

in Christmas of long ago, maybe two years ago, and you loved it. We did a whole series after that too. Yes, we did. We did. Pirates of the Caribbean. You almost went poirits and then you lost... Poirates. No, I like it, pirates too. Of the Caribbean. Very fun. But we have again got our brilliant, very, very special guest with us. And drum roll, you say his name, and I'm going to tell you something you don't know about him. Mark Horton, the great archaeologist, my old friend since I was 16 years old.

Yes, we know. But did you know, and it's going to be very important to know this, I want to see the look on your face when I tell you a thing. Mark lives in a very special house, a house that belonged to, and you better zip it because Mark's story to tell Mark, whose house are you living in? Sir Francis Drake. Sir Francis Drake. What? When did you discover that?

Well, this is while you were late turning up to the recording. This is why to be on time is quite useful. Do you actually? Well, yes. I mean, the tradition is only 19th century, but there's very good reason to believe that he did live there. Well, we certainly hope there's a myth. Did he play bowls on your lawn? No, but nearby Lidney, he would have played bowls with his great friend William Winter,

who funded all the little expeditions we're going to be talking about shortly. And guess what else? And guess what else? Well, we'll get into all the funding in a second. That's all fine and good. But you told me that he haunts the house. Now, I'm going to shelve my disbelief in all things supernatural, but I'm dying to know.

How do you know that he haunts the house? And what does he get up to? What way does he haunt the house? Well, well. The rattle of bowls down a corridor. The rattle of bones, the sense of spay. We get the sense of tobacco. That's really interesting.

Ancient tobacco, not modern tobacco. which then suffuses the house, the type of tobacco that was brought back in the 17th and 16th century from the new world. He is being serious. You should be on time. You miss so much. We have a smellscape.

No, but you also said, can you see bum compressions on cushions? Is that something that's real? Or are you just having me on there? You just see him in the corner, you know. A little bump impression. Oh, my God. You recently fell off a boat and nearly broke your leg and were wandering around limping for a long time.

Was that Sir Francis Drake trying to teach you some seamanship? Some seamanship, that's right. I mean, the reason we're banging on about Francis Drake and who we learn in history as this gentleman, nobleman adventurer is because Francis Drake's first independent privateering, and remember privateering is that very polite word that they used to use for being a pirate and pillagin on the seas. His first independent piracy was along the coast of Panama.

That's right, isn't it, Mark? Yes, yes. He'd fallen out a few years earlier, with John Hawkins. He was basically one of John Hawkins' go-to captains in Hawkins' slaving voyages, taking Africans from West Africa and taking them and selling them illegally to the Spanish. The Spanish didn't like this because it undermined their own monopoly. And in one famous naval engagement, Drake abandoned his position. As a result, Hawkins and Drake fell out, and Drake went off on his own way as a privateer. and managed to persuade a sponsor man called William Wintel to give him lots of money to go and raid the coast of Panama.

We should perhaps, for those who didn't have a British public school education and grew up with Sir Francis Drake, give a little bit of the backstory. Francis Drake, when I went to school, was very much remembered as this heroic Elizabethan, who was such a cool cat and so unbothered by wicked foreigners that when the Spanish Armada, the largest Spanish fleet, invasion fleet that was going to come and destroy Elizabeth in England. When that hove interview over the horizon, then a runner came and said, sir, sir, you must go, mount your sails and sail off. Drake says, I'll just finish my game of bowls. Now, that's how he's remembered. In reality, as Mark has just indicated, he is more nefariously remembered these days as the first English slaver or the second English laver, along with John Hawkins.

and the two went into business, breaking what was then a Portuguese and Spanish monopoly, and actually going raiding into the interior of West Africa for the first time and capturing human beings and selling them at a profit, taking them from Sierra Leone and selling them on the Spanish main. Is that right? Where did you sell them? Mark? No, no, into the Caribbean. At this point, the Caribbean Indians had all been wiped out, the Caribes. And so they needed a new source of labour to run the mines to keep the Spanish economy going. And so there was a massive, insatiable demand for Africans.

And again, the backer of his second slave voyage in 1564 is none other than Queen Elizabeth I, who gives him one of her ships, Jesus of Lubeck, or Yisu of Lubek, which serves as his flagship. So we have, for the very first time, the British Crown, associated with a slaving expedition. which is something that, of course, will develop in the Royal Africa Company. With the Duke of York's brand burned into people's chest. Now, let's go back to Panama, because that's what we were talking about in the last episode. The Spaniards have discovered, or discovered, they've claimed for their own, a sea, the Southern Sea, then Panama, and the Isthm. And there have been plans sent to Philip of Spain, saying, you know, it might be a good idea to build a canal through this very thin stretch of land.

It might be helpful. And he said no, because if God wanted a canal, he would have put. it in there. But what they are attracted to is the gold and the silver that is coming out of these lands. And the gold, although they think is still in mines, is actually not. It's been taken from elsewhere in South America and brought to Panama or is generational gold. But the silver is flowing. And the silver has transformed the European economy. And as William said, all the way up to China, the silver fever in the world. Spanish dollars become the main international currency in the same way that the dollar is today.

And the English are looking at this. You know, they have been enemies of the Spaniards for ages. The Protestant Catholic thing has never been thrown into sharper relief. And they're looking at all these Spaniards getting so very rich off the back of this silver trade that they think, well, we could have a bit of this and hence the pirates or privateers. And that's what we're going to be talking about. You have to put it in your accent again, Anita. We don't recognise it unless you say...

Oh, you don't mind doing it. I know you're going to get complaints about it, but there'll be pirates. There'll be lots of pirates because there'll be lots of silver. So, where shall we start? We have to start in 1572. Drake has a couple of ships. They're absolutely tiny. One's 25 tonnes, which is a large yacht, basically.

And the one's about 50 tonnes. They have 70 men involved. And he decides to attack the heart of... of the Spanish Empire in Panama. A completely mad scheme. I mean, his reputation is in tatters after abandoning Hawkins a few years earlier. Out of cowardice is the accusation

that he just ran away in a battle. That's right, out of cowardice. And stealing some of the treasure at the same time. His reputation is not good, but he does have backers who basically say, well, give you a couple of small ships and see what you can do. And he comes up with the idea

that if he's able to, intercept the gold and silver trains, the bullion coming across the isthmus, then he can make himself extremely wealthy and disrupt that flow of silver and bring that flow of silver back to Elizabeth in England. Which is not a bad plan. Not a bad plan. It's a highest, basically. And so he hatches this plan.

He goes to a place called Port Fesant, which he creates, which is on the Samblas, archipelago, on the north coast. Is that his name for it? It doesn't have very Spanish. It has lots of pheasants. probably cockatiels or something, but similar. The key thing is, because you've got a tiny number of people, the Indians have mostly been wiped out.

But in the mountains are Cimarones. These are escaped slaves from the Spanish mines, who, as it were, don't like the Spanish, and want to get their own back. So he manages to create an allowance between the remaining Indians and the Cimarones and his small number of men. Only 73. I mean, you're not joking.

73 men, that's nothing. That's right. I mean, it's kind of like Cortez, really. So he first of all attacks Nombardadillas. He comes in behind it because everyone thinks it's going to come from the sea. He lands a bit down the coast and attacks it from behind. Like the Japanese at Singapore or something. Yes, yes, the asking.

And it gets a little bit, but there wasn't very much in the town to tell you the truth, Nomba de Dios. So he then, as it were, retreated back and decides to, as it were, attack. the gold train, which he successfully does with his Cimarone's a few miles outside Nombardillos, says it's coming down from Panama. This is after the moment. There's a rather nice story, which I remember hearing about, that at some point he has a cannonball come through his state room.

Is that when he runs away? That's when he runs away. Yes. He decides he captures Nombardios, but he's slightly wounded in the process. So he withdrawals and bander's Zonbriotios and then goes back and launches this attack in the interior. And he manages to capture this moultrain of silver totally unprepared. They had no idea and ends up with 20 tonnes of gold and silver. That's not a bad day's work. 20 tons is extraordinary. But there's lovely fact is it was so too much to carry that he decides

to bury some of it and come back later for it. That's correct. That's not a myth. Absolutely. That's exactly. Is there a treasure map? There's a treasure map. I mean, nobody's ever found it, and whether he actually most unlikely. Why don't you dig there? I understand about your pottery. I understand about your excitement and foundations. But why are you not digging there, Mark? Well, indeed, there might well be, an enormous treasure waiting to be finding. If we hear that you've done up Sir Francis Drake's house, it's now got crystal chandeliers. We'll know that you've found it. He then, as well, takes what he can, what he could carry just a few tons. to the coast, where the ships that he thought were leaving had disappeared.

He then builds a raft, rafts his way along the coast to find some pinnaces that he's also left. So he realised, as a result of the expedition, that he didn't make millions out of it. He nonetheless brought a considerable amount of silver back with him. And when he arrived back in Plymouth, everyone ran out of church to welcome him back. The parson carried on preaching to an empty church. And we think they ran out of church to warn him because a few months earlier, a treaty had been signed between Spain and England, and much against Elizabeth's better judgment. So while he went out as a privateer, he came back with all this Spanish silver as a pirate. And he then disappears for 18 months.

And he didn't know. He didn't know. I suppose there's no radio. There's no warning. Is that when he hides in your house or when does he hide in your house? Well, one possibility is that he hides in our house at this point. The man who sponsors his voyage, William Winter has this spare house on the banks of River 7 where Drake then hangs out for 18 months. No wonder it smells of tobacco. He was stress smoking.

Stress smoking. Hang on. So I didn't know this bit of the story. Is he then pardoned or what happens to him before he goes back to Panama? I think the war then breaks out shortly afterwards and there's so much silver that he's been forgotten. And the key thing is that he's then, so hatching his plans for the round-the-world voyage. He is a first Englishman with John Oxenum to actually spy the specific. So he, part of this, climbed a tree like Balboa did earlier and spy the Southern Seas. Is it the same tree? No, we think not.

Spies the specific. and then that then gives him the idea that he wants to have an expedition into the Pacific, which of course is his great round-the-world voyage, sponsored by Queen Elizabeth and Robert Dudley and Christopher Hatton and all the great nobles of England. Remind me, Mark, has this been done before by the Spanish and the Portuguese, or is he the first to No, Magellan had been round. Magellan, of course, didn't he? But Magellan had died on his way.

So obviously some of his shipmates did a circumnavigation, but Magellan didn't make it all. all they round. So his was a continuous navigation round the world. And this is in the famous golden hind. That's right. It's his flagship. Maybe another podcast we'll tell you all about this. Oh, you spoil us with your expertise. We could have you on, honestly, every other week. Okay, so we've got Drake who is not a privateer, is a privateer lands and then is not a privateer because war breaks out lucky for him. But he has, he's had a taste now, hasn't he? So Panama, does it call back to him, because he's also buried a whole bunch of gold and silver there. Yes, absolutely.

So he then persuades the Crown, wars broken out again with Spain, and persuades the Crown to launch a major expedition, not just two little yachts this time, but 25 ships, 2,000 sailors, 1,200 soldiers. It's a proper expedition. Proper expedition. 20,000 pounds, the Queen invests in the cost of the expedition, which is millions. What date is this? This is in 1585 to 1586.

And he goes down, he catches Santa Domingo on Haiti. They then goes to Cartagena and he managed to, as it well, attack that and sort of semi-sack it. That's a nice place for you to go and dig mug. Absolutely. And then he then ends up in St. Augustine and destroys that while he's on his way, capturing quite a lot of loot on his way. It probably never fully repaid the investment that was made on it, but it mightily annoyed the Spanish, who saw that the English were an emerging maritime power, and El Drac was somebody to be contended with.

El Drac. El Drac. The dragon. Is that what they called him? Yes. Wow. Okay. And so he returned back in 1586.

Incidentally, on his way back, he popped into Roanoke and picked up the desperate colonel. who were at this point starving on the coast of Virginia, and he picked them up and brought them back to Plymouth, but so annoyed the Spanish that they then made their plans for the Amada, which of course is that moment of English history in 1588. Which is defining, and we are taught that, you know, great length. Shinging of King's Beards and the Armada and all of that stuff is the stuff of our history curriculum. But why was he so successful against the Spanish?

Is it just because they didn't expect him? They were outgunned. They were out sailed. I mean, what was it about El Drac that made him so successful in attacking Spanish interests? I mean, this is the discussion about how the English managed to defeat the Armada. The ships were much more versatile. The sailors were better trained, better gunnery. They're smaller and have got more guns, as I was always taught at school.

Is that right? Absolutely. And faster and generally more maneuverable. These great big lumbering galleons look very good, but actually hopeless. And the guys themselves, the Spanish on them were nobleman. They were laden with gold and armor and everything else. And one of the Spanish Armada ships dug up on the coast of Northern Ireland, the number of chains of gold that were found in this ship demonstrate it was an extraordinary,

so aristocratic, but not professional sailors. And so they were easy prey. We haven't said, but it's an important point that Draker comes from a very modest background. Yes, absolutely. Dr. Drake is self-made. Self-made man with a dissenting father as a parson, and he learns his craft, sailing small boats on Thamesestry, basically. Wow. Actually, it's really interesting.

How many of these expeditions are led by Hungary otherwise could be poor men, failed pig farmers or people from modest backgrounds who want to make so much more of themselves? Isn't it interesting? Okay. So carry on, Mark. So he's being successful. He's really annoying the Spanish. The Spanish have had enough of this nonsense. and so they're building their armada and we know what will happen next.

But in the intervening period, it can't just be Drake who sniffs a fortune in this part of the world. So Drake comes back in 1586, a similarly successful with this hugely expensive expedition. And of course, the Elizabethan Crown get wind of the Spanish armaments. So Drake is then dispatched off to Cadiz to singe the King of Spain's beard, as the famous saying. is to provide us of counterattack to the Armada, at which point all the ships can't leave England because every ship is then needed to defend England against this extraordinary invasion that's being planned. So what you're saying, Mark, is that, you know, had the war not happened, others might have hurled themselves into the ocean and had a go, but because every ship is needed,

every boat is needed for Cadiz, he's the only one, he is the pioneer and he remains the only one to have achieved what he did in South America for some years. That's right. The Amada happens. He's becomes a national hero, but actually, I think naval historians have a bigged up Drake's role. Many other naval captains were also involved in the defence. But then the year after, there was the counter armada, which is a disaster. Our English historians tend not to dwell on the counter armada, which was led by Drake. This is 1589. And this is a massive British English armada against the Spain.

I'd never heard of it. Of the counteramander. And actually, more English ships were lost in the counter armada than the Spanish lost in the Spanish armada. It was a complete and utter disaster. It's funny how that isn't tortured our schools. It is. It was a complete disaster. And as a result of this, Drake, when he returned, was in disgrace.

He became an MP. What you do is you're in disgrace. I had to hang around a bit, wondering really what to do. But finally he persuaded investors in 1595 to undertake one last crack at Panama. And he did so, along with his old foe, John Hawkins. Have they been reconciled sitting in the Westminster corridors? Yes, yes. They were both in their dotage, probably way past their best.

What sort of age would he have been in 1595? 55, something like that. We don't exactly. Around 55. Which is a very old man in Elizabeth in England. Absolutely. And he managed to marshal 16 ships, 600 sailors, and a set about attacking the Caribbean again, raiding Spain, trying to, as it were, recover his reputation, which was now in tatters as a result of the debacle of the counter-a-mada. So, I mean, the reason I was asking, was he the only one, and, you know, circumstances meant that he was the only one, it's because he has knowledge of the waters and the coastline.

And so, of course, Hawkins is going to have to reconcile with him because there's nobody else to do business with. He's the only one who's been there and done that. So that would explain that. Okay, so talk us through the pillaging of the Panamanian coast that follows. So they go to Puerto Rico, first of all, and would have a rather ill-fated attack. Unfortunately, John Hawkins then ascends to dysentery and dies and is buried at sea shortly afterwards. They attack on Puerto Rico. And then Drake goes down to Panama and tries the same trip that he did.

again, which was to capture Nombard de Dios. Now he had sufficient ships to capture it and to hold it, but then sent a military expedite. He has soldiers on board to go along the Camino Roy, the Royal Road, to sack Panama, which is obviously on the Pacific side. He successfully captures Nomba de Dios, and he ransoms it, doesn't he? He ransoms it for huge sums of money, which eventually gets paid, but the military expedition fares less well. and confronts a large Spanish army coming up from Panama. And they are rather nastily defeated. About 60 English soldiers are killed.

They all run away, and about five Spanish are killed in this engagement. We should say at this point that Panama that we're talking about is Panama the city, not Panama, the country, which doesn't exist yet. Yeah, no, very good to point that out. But also, some of you might be scratching your head saying, what do you mean he ransomed Panama? And what he did was, he said, if you don't want me to destroy this place, pay me, whatever it was, one billion pounds or whatever it is he asks for.

He doesn't get the money, so then he does order the town to be destroyed, right? I mean, what do they do? Burn it down. Yeah, they burn it down and kill everybody off. And although they don't find any money in the town itself, there's a watchtower on a nearby hill, and they go up there and they find a chest of silver with two bars of golds and pearls and a few other goodies. But it isn't the same sort of stuff as he got last time. Not your 20 tonnes of booty that he left with before.

That's correct. So he's kind of slightly, comes in empty-handed. So it's all a bit bloody. The soldiers have been defeated by the Spanish, and have had to come back and withdraw. He's in Nombardor de Dios, sort of, and they decide to withdraw to the harbour just further up the place, because of Portobello that was discovered by Columbus in 502,

at which point, Drake contracts dysentery. And over three days, he eventually dies. I think in the evening, on the morning of the 30th of January, of dysentery. It takes me about three or four days to kill the old man, and at which point, morale collapses in the fleet. Surprisingly, both Hawkins and Drake have been put into lead coffins and thrown into the sea. That's right. So Drake ordered, as he was dying, to be dressed in his armour, his suit of armour,

and then placed in the lead coffin, and when he was then thrown overboard somewhere and Portobello Harbour. We don't quite know where. And treasure hunters obviously have looked for it the last 50 years and have not found Drake's lead coffin. So, Mark, poor old Drake has got dysentery. He's died. Hawkins has died too. They've been defeated by the Spanish. How come that we all remember Drake as this great hero? How does his reputation suddenly get dry cleaned and he now represents this? It is actually probably the first Englishman to be remembered in the same way that we like to think of James Bond as this character so cool and so collected and calm that even the approach of the Spanish Armada doesn't ruffle him. Well, it's a really interesting question. You see the

sort of historiography of Drake in terms of the sort of changing tenastic politics of England. So the Stewart hate Drake because he created all this horrible warfare and so forth. It was very much associated with Elizabeth and Elizabeth in England. But ironically, his reputation is rehabilitated during the Cromwellian period. Cromwell himself sent out expeditions to the grand design to Jamaica and again, confrontations with these nasty Catholics in Spain. So here his reputation is rekindled, accounts of his voyages are then published, ships are named after him. And it's really from that period, from the 1650s onwards, Drake then becomes, as it were, of a household name. He's a kind of symbol of anti-Catholic pirating. That's the point of him,

that he's one of these characters that today we forget that there was this massive prejudice against Catholics, which was a major part of English history for such a long time. And Drake is the embodiment of that. That's why he's remembered. That's right. But there's a second, as it were, bite at the cherry because the Victorians also needed a great naval hero. And there was a famous historian called Sir Julian Corbett, who wrote a big vote called Drake

and the Elizabethan Navy, which is this eulogy about how what a wonderful seafarer he was. And it was from that from the 1880s, 1890s, that Drake's reputation

as a sort of the great naval hero of the British Empire was fostered and created with, you know, HMS, Drake, of course, being the, the naval station down in Plymouth and everything else, the founder of the Royal Navy.

So, I mean, I'm just thinking now the landscape has changed entirely. So no Hawkins, no Drake, the Spanish are sickened tired of getting attacked in this way. So there must be some Spanish response to this. Do they start fortifying? Do they start re-arming? What do they do? So they decide to abandon Nombududor dios as an unfortifiable place and moved to Portobello, which they fortify in 1597, and they build three enormous fortresses at Portobello, two guarding the entrance and another one guarding the harbour. And within Portobello, they build a great treasure house, an enormous, great big stone building that's able to store the bullion as it comes down the road.

And they divert the Camina Real, the Royal Road, which went to Nombardidios, that now goes a little bit further down the coast to Portobello. And then that becomes the great entreau for the export of the bullion through the 17th and 18th centuries. Okay, now this is a UNESCO World Heritage site now, these fortifications. I look at a picture of it. It looks lovely. Yeah, I know it. I mean, it looks amazing. But is it somewhere where you have dug or would like to dig? And what is allowed there?

Alas, I mean, it's such an enormous site. It's actually in quite good condition. So the fact very little archaeology has been done in Portobello, simply the sheer scale of the fortresses, are completely overwhelming there. It looks very like one of those lovely fortresses in Goa with the sort of palm trees all around and those little pepper pot turrets. And great batteries of guns that face out into the ocean

to protect you. There's another fort that was built at the same time called San Lorenzo, which guards the entrance to the Shagrass River, which is the other route into the interior. So they were guarding that coast, and the route down to the South Seas. I mean, 35 canon, I mean, they're not joking around now.

If the Brits want to have a go again, they are ready, their guns are pointed. They're not going to take this again. That is very clearly the message that's being sent out. And then, of course, shortly afterwards, we have the death of Elizabeth, the accession of James I. And don't forget the founding of the East India Company at this point, also. So interest for confrontation with Spain somewhat declines, and James pursues a policy of peace.

with Spain. And English energies are diverted off into the Indian Ocean. To the Indian Ocean rather than to the Caribbean. So Panama in the, as well, early 1600s is literally churning out this silver from the mines of South America. And that's the great period of the wealth of Spain. But you know what? If you've got a churning of silver, do you know what happens? There'll be pirates, because it doesn't matter how much you fortify if there is a substantial amount of coaching. The pirates don't care. They don't care. You've got 35 cannon pointing out. So we're going to take a break here. Join us after the break where we find out the hungry ones who come back despite those enormous fortifications. Welcome back. Well, we've had pirates, but we haven't yet had rum, which is the important part of any pirate story. And who better to introduce the rum flavour of this second half of our pirate special than Sir Henry Morgan, after who? Morgan's rum is named. Mark, tell us about this figure.

Okay, so this man was a kind of a minor Welshman, actually, who set out to make his fortune in Jamaica. This was Port Royal, which was the nest of what were known at this point, the Buccaneers rather than the pirates. These were freebooters. Buccaneers being a plight term again, like privateers. I mean, honestly, it's same meat, different gravy. They keep renaming themselves. Basically, they knock off other ships and take what's in them. But yes, okay, a buccaneer if you like.

They're named after Bucam, which I think was some for dried meat that they ate on the coast of Haiti, where they developed their particular rebooting activities. And Jamaica itself was a kind of a nest of these pirates. Port Royal was the site. Actually, not much of it survives or does survive underwater. There was a big earthquake. And the whole city, a pirate city, subsumed underneath the way. This is very Pirates of the Caribbean.

Yes, absolutely. And so where does Morgan fit into all this? So the Spanish get wind or the English in Jamaica get wind that the Spanish want to retake Jamaica. Jamaica had been captured by Cromwell's troops during the Grand Design and realized that the way to stop Jamaica being captured was to go and attack the Spanish and the Spanish wealth. So Morgan was elected with a group of other ships to set sail onto attacking the Portobello, the Atlantic port where the treasure was being removed. No idea had a good eye also for the loot that he was going to be founding, but it was also to disrupt the Spanish treasure flute as part of the general conflict with Spain in the 1680s.

So give us the whole story of Morgan laying siege. to Portobello in July 1668, what's all that about? So he was, although he didn't have a huge amount of members, he was able to lay siege to these impregnable fortresses guarding Portobello. He basically attacked them one by one. And what was extraordinary, he again demanded a ransom of 100,000 pesos for Portobello, threatening to burn it if they didn't actually pay up. up and sent invoice to the governor of Panama who branded a Morgan, a pirate, and refused

concession firing no Englishman would be spared. And Mark, just to remind us the kind of background of this, we are now 70 years after Drake's death. What's happening in the wider scheme of things? England is rising now. It's much more has a reputation as a naval power, not just a bunch of sort of terrorist with big yachts going around, nicking stuff from Spain. Yes. Critically, the English were claiming large tracks of the Eastern Caribbean. So pioneer settlements have been set up in places like St. Kitts and Barbados.

These were becoming important plantations as well as Jamaica, and particularly in the 1660s was the arrival of sugar, which suddenly became this incredibly valuable commodity. This is where we're heading towards rum now. Indeed we are. And huge quantities of sugar were being produced initially by indentured servants. These were sort of Irishmen and rebels and various other people who were shipped out from Ireland and from Scotland and so forth. These are the poor people who got shoved out of their houses during our Irish series with the building of the plantations and the resettlement by English people of land previously owned by the Irish.

But unfortunately, very rapidly ran out of these indentured servants. And some of them actually stayed on and became really quite wealthy plantation owners in their own right. But most of the indentured servants died, which meant that they had to then open up a slave trade to run the sugar plantations. Well, they didn't have to, but they did. They did. So this is the context of Morgan. So that's the context, but also the conduct of Morgan is worth talking about. is he and his men were ruthless and their purpose to subdue great numbers of people. As you said,

you know, 470 men is what he took on his nine ships. It's not that many. It's better than the 73 that we had earlier on where, you know, you had Drake coming with 73 men on his first adventure. But the way they do this is by terrorising everybody, you know, shoot first, parley later. And they get this horrific reputation, so horrific, in fact, for cruelty and putting their captives to the sword, that when they come across their first Spanish commander, he surrenders. Morgan's very gracious and saying, you know, we'll give you good terms on this. But the commander drinks poison rather than actually fall into the hands of Morgan. There's real terror in their wake. So it's hardly surprising that eventually the governor of Panama coughed up 100,000 pesos

to save Portobello from destruction and massacre. So Morgan left Portobello largely intact with just huge quantities of plunder, but left the city intact. But then that was the basis of his fortune to become an extremely wealthy plantation owner in Jamaica. And is he already now shipping black enslaved people from West Africa? Is that the next thing that happened? This is the next thing. This is a little bit later.

They're still using indentured servants by and large. but the Royal African Company who were basically incompetent. So the liberalisation of slave trade only took place in about 69, a few years later, because these nobles were not capable of shipping enough slaves required to run the plantations. Not just the nobles, but the stewards. It's a kind of Stuart monopoly, isn't it? It's very much run by the Stuarts for their own profit. Are there any Caribs left at this point, Mark?

Or are they been basically wiped out already? Caravs in Panama be pretty well wiped out. In the Caribbean there are a few, but not many. And there's all sorts of funny people, descendants from shipwrecked African slaves who set up little communities themselves. And we don't know to what extent there's interbreeding between African slaves and the caribs that survive. But in terms of pure caribs, very, very few are surviving. So you've got now Morgan, who is proving himself to be terrifying and, you know, it's successful because he says to Portobello, we'll ransom you if you don't give us the money, we'll burn you to the ground. And it must be in their memory that, you know what, Drake did do that. He did ransom a place and he wasn't kidding about. So they pay up, and, you know, 100,000 pesos. He is a rich man, but it isn't enough for him because he's got his eye on Panama. Portobello, one thing, he's rich beyond the dreams of most privateers, but he wants more.

So tell us a little bit about how he starts zooming in on Panama. So it comes back two years later in 1670, and at this point, his approach is slightly different. He goes to the Fort San Lorenzo, which is defending the entrance to the Shagras River, and has combined, basically English and French pirates, has an army of about 1,400 men in total. And they sail up the shaggrass and then managed to sail across, basically following the route, followed by the later railroad and the canal, and attack the city of Panama. This is what Drake wanted to do and never managed to do. Never managed to do so. And they attacked it in a horrendous form and burnt the place to the ground into ruins to such an extent that there was nothing actually left.

And so after Morgan retired, the Spanish rebuilt Panama and another location about four miles down the coast. And where you go there today, the ruins of old Panama are sitting there, another World Heritage Site. And you could literally walk around this Spanish city as it was abandoned, this frozen moment in 1670. And you just mentioned Fort San Lorenzo at the mouth of the Chagoras River. I mean, that is the river that will later be damned to create the Panama Canal. That's what it is, isn't it? That's where the location of people are sort of scratching around in their heads. That's what we're talking about.

That's right. So this is the route. So it shifts slightly to the west. And basically Morgan is lying out that subsequent route across the isthmus, which is the lowest bit that you can cross. I mean, we talked about this before in the last episode. Are there people, again, pressing for a canal because it seems like a very doable thing and it's changing hands this area.

So, I mean, is there a petition going to the Brits saying, you know, we could really do with the canal here? It would be really helpful. No, I don't think so. And by the later 17th century, the Spanish Empire was fairly enfeebled to tell you the truth, was running out of silver, was hugely bureaucratic. And I think this is the furthest from their idea that they were going to build a canal. So let's just finish off with Morgan. He unexpectedly joins the establishment. Charles I the second knights him. And he ends up as governor of Jamaica, probably. That's right. He becomes this great.

This ruffian becomes this great naval hero who has, as it were, bloodied the span. Of course, we're now moving to the period of Anglo-Spanish and Anglo-French wars, which is ultimately creating as dispute over particularly the Caribbean islands and control of those Caribbean islands and their supply of sugar. So if you're a little pirate and you have a poster on your wall, it will be of Henry Morgan, who's now managed to become governor of Jamaica. Yes. Rich and powerful. So does that mean that there is a glut of pirates who follow in his way saying, you know, I'd like a bit of that too? That's right. They suddenly realized the wealth of Spain and Panama. And so the most famous, and rather than the Glitty expedition, is the great South Sea expedition of 1680, in which 350 pirates all meet Golden Island.

This is William Dampier is one of these, isn't it? We've talked about him. This is William Dampier, who of course subsequently was the discoverer of Australia. And various other pirates all then established and marched across the Isthmus at this point, following Balboa's route across the Isthmus to the Chicanarki. where they find a Spanish city called San Maria El Real, which has never been discovered. Which you discovered? Which I then went and rediscovered it. Yes, I stumbled upon it while I was surveying down there.

Come on, tell us the story. Well, we just went into the bush and there was all these brick buildings sitting there lurking to be found. What we all finds there, Mark, just lots of Spanish pottery or? Well, I was only there for a few hours because it was extremely dangerous because the FARC guerrillas from Colombia were very active in this part of Panama. Oh, wow. So there was a serious risk of being ambushed and kidnapped, which you wouldn't want to be.

So the place remains unexplored, but I know where it is. So what did these 350 pirates, including Dampia, what did they do? They persuaded the Indians to lend them some canoes and set about attacking various Spanish ships and I might to capture five Spanish warships in the process. which were empty, unfortunately. But they found a galleon with lots of pieces of eight on board. 60,000 pieces of eight. 60,000 pieces of eight,

which were meant to be paying the troops in Panama. That's doing better than Drake. That's right. Huge amounts, but they didn't succeed in attacking. They tried to attack Panama, but they were repelled. And then the pirate expedition, like all pirates, broke up in chaos. Some pirates returned back over the isthmus route. including Dampier and the surgeon, the man called Lionel Wafar,

who left an account of the Indians that lived in the centre of the isthmus, which is our first really detailed evidence of what they would look like. He was stuck there for two years. Now, we can't let you off without, you made that little hint about William Dampere in Australia. Now, we all think that it's discovered by, well, worked out, of course, by Alexander Drimple, but discovered by some character called Captain Cook. He keeps trying to scream down. We all learn it's cook.

But yes, as you were, carry on. But no, no. How did Dampier beat him to it by 150 years? He beat him to it by 150 years. Now we know we have a really good narrative. It was new voyage around the world. In 1702 to 1703, he sailed round the world. He knew his excitement for the South Seas was probably because he was there in that earlier

South Seas expedition in the 1680s. Picking up. of eight. Picky up pieces of eight and realize that there was wealth to be had. And, you know, he was a pirate but also an explorer, a botanist and a really compulsive reader, actually. We should say just in case anyone doesn't know, didn't grow up playing the board game Buccaneer. Mark, tell us what a piece of eight is. What does it look like?

Why is it so called? It's essentially a silver coin with the arms of Spain on one side. but it could be divided up into eight slithers. If you were a pirate. If you were a pirate, you would find your eight pieces. So it was a divisible coin. So that's known as a piece of eight. Was it like a Cadbury's chocolate bar that you could just split up?

Yes, absolutely. And was the Vardimecombe of this period? Anyway, so I just said the pirate expedition. So Captain Sharp, who was one of the pirate leaders, actually took one of the captured Spanish ships and sailed all the way down the coast of South America and was the first person to round Cape Horn in an eastward direction, rather than the westward direction,

thus laying the line for, effectively, that Cape Horning roots that then kept the Australian economy going in the late 18th and 19th centuries. So, Mark, at what point does Dampier discover Australia and what does he actually see? Does he land? Does he see just the top of the continent or the bottom? He comes along the top of the continent,

So it basically goes along the north end of Australia. And we have maps that basically very clearly show the shape of the basic northern territories. But if I saw a map the other day dating from about 1700, which has that line. And I had this conversation with the person in the map shop saying, how come the Australia's there 100 years before Captain Cook? And Dan Piers the answer. I didn't know that. Yes.

But we must just finish briefly. one year later, then I shall leave you to talk about the Panama Canal. But in 1739, there's one last attack, successful destruction of Portobello, by Admiral Vernon. And this is during the War of Jenkins here. Oh, yes. Another thing we learn at school. Another for the War of Jenkins here. And successfully managed to attack and defeat Portobello. This was an official naval expedition, This is the Royal Navy in operation in Portobello. And that was ready the last time that the English were engaged on the coast of Panama. Okay.

Look, you have set us up so beautifully because in the next episode we are going to start talking about, finally, when they get it into their heads that they can build a canal across this tiny strip of land and it will be transformative, the Panama Canal. You can hear that straight away if you don't like waiting by joining EmpirePodukuk.com. That's EmpirePod UK.com. com. And all of this is leading to where we started this entire series, which is why is this important to the current president of the United States, Donald Trump? But until then, I just again would like to say how much of a pleasure it is to have you on, Mark Wharton, because you take

us into all sorts of trenches we never thought or dreamt or imagined we would end up in. An amazing number of places you've discovered in your life. It's just wonderful. And we should just remind our wonderful listeners that they don't have to spend a piece of eight or even an eighth of a piece of an eight to join the Empire Club, which is a treasure trove equal to any doubloons or a chest discovered by Drake or Morgan. Enter this box and wonders will pour out. You can access all our theories in advance for free. You can get access to all sorts of things. Tell them all the other things they can have. Chella, you're doing such a good job of stumbling around in the treasure chest of doubloons.

We have a newsletter. We have discounts. on books that we talk about. We have early access to miniseries. So, for example, you won't have to wait for the next one on the Panama Canal if you're a member of our club. You get it straight away. And on top of that, there's a discord community. You can chat amongst yourselves. No ads. I mean, honestly, the list is endless. It is a treasure trove, a Dratian mule train of delights. Yes. But anyway, if that doesn't tempt you, we'll meet you at the usual time. If it does, we'll see you in a minute. But till the next time. we meet. It is goodbye from me, Anita Arnon. And goodbye from me, William Durhampool.