Empire: World History - 355. Liberator of Latin America: Napoleon & The Legions of Hell (Part 2)

Episode Date: April 29, 2026

Who were the cowboys and Indigenous people who made up the “Legions of Hell” and why did Bolívar fear them so deeply? How did Napoleon’s invasion of Spain speed up the collapse of its empire? What was Simón Bolívar’s secret revolutionary mission in London? Get the entire Simón Bolívar miniseries early and ad-free by joining the Empire Club at empirepoduk.com  In Episode 2 of this series, Anita and William discuss the fragile nature of the Spanish Empire and the total war that broke out in South America in the fight for independence. For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com. Email: [e-mail] Instagram: @empirepoduk Blue Sky: @empirepoduk X: @empirepoduk Assistant Producers: Alfie Rowe and Imogen Marriott Social Producer: Charlie Johnson Editor: Vasco Andrade Producer: Anouska Lewis Executive Producer: Dom Johnson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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that helps L'Oreal Group create the best beauty products for all people. Visit laurel.com to learn more. This father's day start with a question, like where did dad's story begin? Ancestry DNA now has up to $75 off on our father's day sale. So dad can explore his roots across more than 3,600 regions and discover the places and cultures that shaped his story. Save now, give Ancestry DNA from only $69. Offer ends June 21st. Visit Ancestry.ca for details. Terms apply. Hello and welcome to Empire for the second part of our series on Simon Bolivar. Now, if you want to hear all the episodes, you don't want to wait, you just go and join Empire Club at Empirpoduk.com. That's Empirepodukuk.com. But let me just remind you all and, Willie, where we left off in the last episode. So Bolivar, this young man, age 22, he'd experienced a lot of personal tragedy. We talked about that in the last episode. And we sort of found him on top of the sacred mound, Montesacro Hill in Rome, vowing to remove the Spanish colonial power from his homeland. And we, we sort of found him on top of the sacred mound, Montesacro Hill in Rome, vowing to remove the Spanish colonial power from his homeland. And we sort of described the huge vastness of the Spanish Empire and how it was managed, and a key part of how

the Latin American colonies were kept under Spanish control. So just to recap a little bit, you had a local Creole elite that were doing all the work of senior civil servants, and just a reminder that Creole doesn't necessarily in this instance mean mixed race as it does today, but people born in the colonies, like Bolivar himself, Spanish parents, but born in what is now called Venezuela. And this is going to be a tension that runs through this episode, the struggle for control over this incredibly wealthy colony between the local Creole elite, which is what Bolivar is part of, and the Spanish crown, which is trying to claw back control. And this is the background to everything that we're going to be describing in this

episode. But Anita, tell me, how did Spain at this point hold on to such a vast empire with such a small population back in Europe and its own economy in decline in this period. Well, through families like Bolivar's family, you know, these are the Creole elites who owned the colonies, ran the colonies, the plantations, the mines. They were the ones who kept the indigenous and enslaved populations in Czech. And this is really key to why things are difficult here, because remember we were talking about these different vice royalties, you know, were different sort of viceroyers, as India had one in charge or overarching. In a place as big as this, you have different control centres.

And what is odd and really special about what goes on in South America under the Spanish is that communication between the colonies was punishable by death. So they were sort of setting up, and I suppose this must be a centralised fear among the peninsularies and the Spanish, that they wanted to keep their possessions fragmented. Because if they, I'm always minded of what Mary Beard said about Roman slaves, that if they had a uniform, they could see how many of them there were. And, you know, the elites would have no hope, no chance. That was really striking fact. And that is very much the thinking in the Spanish mind as well, that if they see how they outnumber us, if they start talking laterally rather than deferring upwards to, you know, the Spaniards that we put in charge right at the top of the tree, then how are we going to keep control?

And it was a good point, but it was one that people would realize. Yeah. And this is going to be what's running through this episode. The 18th to 19th centuries, over 300 years of colonial rule from Spain are showing distinct signs of cracking. In the 18th century, let's start from there. You've got the new Bourbon dynasty in Spain. And they start to think, actually, we need a little more control than we've had before.

So they start initiating a series of reforms on how their American territory. are going to be administered. The whole aim of this is that, you know, Spain's economic growth is central. It is all about extraction. What happens to Spain is all that is important. So, you know, whatever is happening in the colonies, you know, tough for them, they just have to bolster what we are doing and where we are. So the reforms are quite convoluted, but let me just boil it down to something very, very simple. They are basically creating conditions for a growing politicization of the colonies because what they're going to do is going to really annoy people. Creoles who were in administrative roles, who were, you know, sort of doing some very senior

jobs. Yeah. Okay. So they were high level, but they weren't ever viceroys. So you send in a vice roy, but the guys underneath that are all local. Everyone who's doing any work is going to be a Creole. Got it. Okay.

But suddenly, this Bourbon reform says, you know what? Actually, that leaves us a little bit vulnerable. We are only going to put Peninsulares, you know, these officials born on the Spanish. mainland in those jobs because these creos are kind of getting a little bit big for their boots. Uppity. Uppity, exactly. Uppity to use that horrific thing. And also, you know, they start getting a little bit suspicious of the Catholic Church as well

because the Catholic Church, you know, their constituencies in the colonies are the colonists, right? So they start thinking actually, you know, they're going a slightly off book as well. Not all of them. I mean, by and large, you know, the church is very loyal to Spain. but there are these sort of renegades who are starting to think of themselves as an entity rather than, you know, sort of a Spanish loyalist. We should perhaps also mention, Anita, the reasons that this matters to the Spanish crown, the things that are being extracted.

It's no longer presumably the massive flow of gold and silver, which kind of, you know, gushed open in the 16th and 17th century when Spain was just afloat with gold from Latin America. But there's still, you know, a lot of mineral wealth coming from this part of the world, copper in particular. But there's also this new product of cacao, which is being used for a luxury drink, hot chocolate. They haven't yet got chocolate bars, but hot chocolate is a posh drink across Europe and people will pay for it. And this is what Bolivar's family are making their money from. Under the pre-Borban reforms, they were making money.

But what does change here? I mean, what is, because there has to be a change. It has to be a catalyst that makes radicals. And that is actually we're going to change the tax system and the trade system so that more profit flows into Spain. So that depletes the pockets and the bank accounts of those families that you relied on to do all the work. Not only that, you're telling them they're going to have to pay you more. You're also going to tell them that they're not going to have such senior jobs anymore. So this starts really cheesing off those Creole elites who have been doing all the work. This is actually

going to go into a lot more in the final episode. And it's very much central to that. But we should just flag up front that there is an ongoing debate about how you interpret Bolivar. Is he this sort of Che Guevara figure who's liberating the continent for the sake of it? Or is he, in fact, just representing his own class? Is he wanting to replace a Spanish king with someone that looks a bit like himself? And so this is something that's going to be running through all this. Well, I mean, I have some thoughts on this. I have very strong thoughts on this. But first, I've always been a Bolivar girl. Well, no, it's not bad. I just think it's... I'm more skeptical, I have to say. It's not that at all. What it is, I think, you know, you can have a man who can do different things at different

points in his life. And so I think that's why it's important to follow his sort of trajectory, his journey, if you like, to see what the motivations are and how they change him. Because he is not a, no man is a constant, William, you know this. You know, no man sort of is fully formed. And it's through this, this life story that you perhaps see how his priorities change. And at the end, not going to blow it, but how maybe he looks back upon his own life and sees himself as a success or a failure. But we'll come to that in a moment, we were talking about the changes that the Spanish had instituted. And one of the reasons that they needed money was because of the Peninsula Wars. Now, let's talk about those for a little while. So Napoleon invades Spain

in 1808. And this triggers a constitutional crisis that will eventually shatter the Spanish empire. And this is a big surprise, isn't it? Because initially, they're allies, France and Spain. Yeah, but nobody has you known in this period of time. Friendships, they fragment with startling regularity. This is quite complicated, okay? So, I mean, just, but in essence, the old king, Charles IV, is forcibly deposed by his own son, who then becomes King Ferdinand, the 7th. Now, both appealed to Napoleon, who is a Frenchman to say, can you sort this out between us?

Who should it be? Should it be me or should it be my son? Sounds like a dangerous precedent to get him involved. It's just stupid. He's French, for goodness sake. And Napoleon is a land grabber. So when is he going to look at a situation when a father and son are squabbling and looking to him to adjudicate who should be running Spain? He sees the opportunity.

So he says, you know what? Let's chat about this a bit more. Come to France. Let's have a cup of tea and talk about it. And so when they do, he says, right, it's going to be neither of you. Joseph, my brother, is going to be on the Spanish throne. shock, horror, surprise. I mean, if only anyone could have guessed this could have been in Napoleon's playbook.

Who would have guessed? Who would have guessed? Mad, isn't it? And, you know, you put your brother on the throne. You're going to send your troops to support him. So French troops pour into Spain under the pretext of what they say is going to be a joint invasion of Portugal. Because Portugal is a troublesome entity and Spain has rubbed up against it for some time. We're going to come in and we're going to help you, stroke, take over and send all our military garrisons in.

And we're going to sort that out for you. No declaration of war, but Spain and France supposedly allies, but suddenly, you know, you've got a French occupation of Spain. So one of the guys of let's help you with Portugal, they basically flood the place with French soldiers. And it is absolutely bonkers for a while because you've got one crown and three heads, effectively claiming to be king. And so, you know, the realignment of powers in Europe makes this all the more complicated. And you have, you know, different local junters who say, you know, we don't like the French.

being here, we want them to be out, in the name of this king, which king? Oh, that king? Well, that's not our king. So, you know, you just have this kind of fragmentation within the country as well. The colonies, they're like, who is our king at the moment? You know, what is going on? This is a bit like the kind of French empire once Germany takes over France and Second World War, what happens to Algeria, what happens to Vietnam and Cambodia. Right. So, yeah, if you don't know who's in charge, you kind of start running the shop yourself because all of those people, that have been appointed who are answering to Spain, they're not getting very clear instruction because who are they getting instructions from? Who do they sympathize with? So what happens in effect

is that you get the Creole class, of which Bolivar's family was very much a part of, they start making decisions on their own. They get a taste of autonomy, a taste of what it is to, you know, sort of run the show themselves. And when finally it is sorted out what's going on in Spain and Ferdinand's the seventh returns to power in 1814, he comes back going to. Hang on a minute. What are these colonies doing? They're not listening. They've just been doing things on their own. And he tries to restore absolutist rule. Now, by this time, the Creoles, even the moderate Creoles, had a taste of doing things themselves, probably running things a lot more effectively because they know the country, they know their people. And even the moderates

start saying, which Spanish king? Who the hell are you? We've been doing this ourselves for a few years now, why are you here? So they start talking about self-governance. Some, the less moderate ones, start talking about independence. And that really is kind of that, you know, you were asking before was Bolivar thinking, you know, along the lines of independence? Can't go into his head about this. But the theme at the time was independence started being talked about for the first time after Ferdinand tries to sort of become the heavy on the creos who've been running things in the absence of any clear direction. This has many parallels, whether you're talking about Algeria and Southeast Asia during the Second World War or the fragmentation of the Soviet Union. Once the center goes down,

you get, you know, Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan and all these other satellites breaking off. It's a pattern as a template, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly right. And in Venezuela itself, or what we now know is Venezuela, you know, the Creos are now meeting in secret to discuss, you know, how outrageous it is that the king far away, who has been absent and involved in a ridiculous squabble with the family and inviting the French into Spain, is trying to now act the heavy. So they start talking about this. And there is this 30-year-old plantation owner who was the same 22-year-old who swore the oath on the hilltop in Rome that he would liberate his country. Simon Bolivar is in the mix around this table. And very much,

much steering the conversation to, we don't need them anymore. We don't need them. I've seen what they're like. I've seen what they do. They are chaotic. So let's return to Simon Bolivar. What is his place in all this? How does he end up back in Venezuela? So after his trip to Europe, Bolivar sailed back to Venezuela, where this resentment is bubbling away against the Spanish government. But Bolivar was far more radical than his peers around that table. Because he is saying, you know what, I know you're talking about autonomy, but I want independence. We don't need them anymore. We don't want them anymore.

They are fools and buffoons, and they can't even control what's going on in mainland Spain. So in 1810, he joins a diplomatic mission to London on behalf of, well, the royalist junta in Venezuela. So it's kind of a look under cover of being a royalist. But you're actually, I mean, it's sort of spycrafty, really. You're going to meet influential people and have a parallel conversation rather than the conversation that they are thinking you're going to have. And in Britain, it's interesting at this time, because there is covert support for this Spanish-American independence.

Presumably entirely self-serving. Of course, as always. You know, if you break Spain, then you break their trade monopolies. And, you know, you break Spain, then, you know, their markets on the continent, they're open for business to you. So he goes there sort of Bolivar, you know, and supposedly seeking British support for, you know, Ferdinand, the Seventh. But they're doing something else, having another conversation altogether. And it's good to introduce another character in this. Francisco de Miranda, who's a very important part of this story, isn't?

He absolutely is. I mean, first of all, you know, our producer has described him as looking like Lucius Malfoy in Harry Potter. He does. It does. And he's got this sort of shock of slick back white hair. You know, he could be a Targaryen. It's very white hair. Draco's dad is definitely, yeah. So let's tell you a little bit about de Miranda because he's important. So he's born in Caracas in 1750 and what was, you know, then New Granada, just to remind you of these vice regalties, Venezuela in new money. He had very wealthy parents like Bolivar, but unlike Bolivar,

and this is why this whole Creole thing is quite a muddy mix, Miranda's father's ethnic purity was often questioned by the other elites. And that's not because he was mixed race black, and we've just described him as a Malfoy and a Targary. But it's because his father was an immigrant from the Canary Islands. Was that considered dodgier than the kind of mainland? Or why would the Canary Island be a... Darling, it makes him a mudblood in effect, because he's not straight from Spain, right?

He's not a peninsula. He's come from the Canary Islands. Well, they're, you know, the yocalls from the canary islands. They're not like us. So that is really, I think, interesting. And, you know, we will carry on talking about this sort of creostatism, whether he was mixed race or not. And largely, I don't think he could have been,

because if you did have any sort of mixed blood, they would go for you, even if your dad was from the Canary Islands, right? He is the Che of the 18th century. He fights in every revolution that's going. He's been in the American Revolution, he's in the French Revolution. His name's on the Art of Triumph. Yeah, and he fought in the American Revolution. I like to sort of think about him as a, you know,

he's kind of like a Lafayette character. There's a revolution. I'm on my way. I'm on my way. At the turn of the 19th century, Miranda was spending a lot of time in London. He also was all about Venezuelan independence. He'd been, as you say, in France for the revolution in America,

he saw what was possible. So he thought, why not for my own homeland as well? Even Leeds actually a really, I mean, it's a failed attempt at independence in 1806. And then he gets booted out of Venezuela because he's an undesirable. And he moves in exile to London. So in London, Bolivar is restored. by the then Foreign Secretary, Marquist Wellesley, who's a very familiar character to anyone who knows their Indian history. He's the former Governor General, arguably the most important

Governor General of the entire period. He is Richard Wellesley, the elder brother of the Duke of Wellington, at the time more famous than the Duke of Wellington, but now completely forgotten. He had been the man who got rid of all the pro-French courts in India. So he takes on Tipal Sultan, he overthrows the French in Hyderabad, and he conquers more of India than Napoleon conquers of Europe. So he is sitting here, he's one of the great francophobes of the period, and so he lets Bolivar into his web. His web is in Apsley House at the centre of Hyde Park, where he's living in a slightly seedy existence with all his mistresses, and he's now an old man who's past the best of his days. So true, but the person who smooths that introduction, remember, is Miranda.

Miranda has a huge part to play in this because Miranda is so much seen as, you know, this wedge that can drive a space between Spain and its colonies that he can get, you know, people like the Marcus of Welles to see this man Bolivar from nowhere who's supposedly representing the king of Spain and who is doing no such thing. But they do. They, you know, they kind of like each other. They get on with each other. And there are. some very important seeds that are sown at this meeting with the Marquis of Wellesley-Apsi House, because later on in this story, you are going to see six and a half thousand British volunteers joining Bolivar and actually at one point saving his life, but more of that to come.

But it's not just Wellesley, actually, it's also the Foreign Secretary George Canning, who is actively championing the cause of colonial independence, you know, that these colonies should be free. You know, which is so bonkers because Wellesley is, you know, a colonist. He's more responsible for enslaving half of India, exactly. But not when it comes to Spain and her colonies. He's very outspoken about Spain and his colony, you know, her colonies. You know, you shouldn't have colonies at all.

Let's go back to Bolivar. So he's had this successful meeting, Willie, in London. He's got the ear of people. So he now then heads back to Caracas and is shortly afterwards joined by his mate Miranda. And they form a political club under the disgust. of the agricultural society. They're pretending they're talking about tillage and seed rotors and combined harvesters, whatever the 18th century equivalent of that is. In reality, of course, they are just discussing ways of getting rid of the Spanish now. Yeah. And so what they start doing

is agitating. You know, they send out people, like-minded people. And it is very cloak and dagger stuff because it's dangerous. What they're doing is very, very dangerous, particularly, you know, if Spain is trying to come down with an iron fist on those who are trying to. trying to rest its colonies away. But the agitation is successful. And you have this very important date. On July the 5th, 1811, Venezuela declares independence. It is the first Spanish-American colony to do so. They have the numbers. After the agitation of this, you know, sort of farmers' club, supposedly this agricultural society, they gain a head of steam. So quite often we find that sort of, you know, great heroes retrospectively get given jobs

that they haven't done. But this is not actually Bolivar himself declaring independence, is it? No, because I mean, who is he in the scheme of things, really? So it is the first National Congress declares Venezuela's independence. But the two people pushing them to do it and assuring them that this is going to work, there are two. It is Bolivar and it is Miranda. And, you know, Bolivar was 28 years of age at this time.

But what's important is he made a vow six years before that on a hilltop. and it's just beginning to take shape. But you know what? It's very, very different declaring independence and being independent. So we'll have more of that after the break. This episode is brought to you by The National Archives. It's Tom Holland here from Goalhangers, The Rest is History. Now, American independence is often painted as a quest for freedom,

a triumph of democratic ideals. But it was also a period of immense risk and violence, which turned the colonial world upside down. So if you want to go beyond the familiar tales of the Boston Tea Party and red-coated battalions, I have some marvellous news for you. The National Archives is holding a free exhibition. Revolution 250. America's Independent Story 1763 to 1783.

It's not just a story of declarations and battles and revolutionary heroes. It uncovers the human cost of decisions made on both sides of the Atlantic. You'll also encounter voices too. often push to the margins. Don't miss this once in a lifetime exhibition. Revolution 250, America's Independence Story 1763 to 1783, June the 24th to November the 29th at the National Archives in Q. Welcome back. So 1811 is this crucial year for Bolivar and for Venezuela, but his victory and the victory of Venezuela, the independence of Venezuela, is short-lived. In 1812, this dream of an independent country is crushed, both by military might of Spain and an act of God.

Well, yeah, that's certainly the way that's Spanish. Well, you know, it depends how religious you are, to be honest. If you're an atheist, you're like, it's an earthquake. It is an earthquake. I call that an act of God. We've even done a secular reading of a... Okay, fair enough. Well, it is a devastating earthquake. And, you know, the day that it strikes is kind of notable as well as on Holy Thursday, March 26, 1812. And what happens with this earthquake, which is just so unlucky for, you know, the independence movement, is it particularly hits pro-independent city. I told you it was an act of God.

There's no question. This is the hand of the archangel Michael, with his sword, perfectly, taking out these revolutionaries and upper-ty-level. says. So that is what the church. So do you remember in the last episode we were saying that those who are particularly loyal to the Spanish crown, the church was loyal. And then there were certain members of the church who were being less loyal. And that was worrying, you know, the peninsula is the Spanish back at home. But by and large, when the cities that are pro-independence are hit very hard. And weirdly, the royalist strongholds are pretty, you know, unscathed, in a disaster that kills thousands of people. I mean, there are some estimates that suggest up to 20,000 people

may have been killed by these earthquakes. Buildings are destroyed. Infrastructure is destroyed. What comes from the pulpit, unsurprisingly, is God hates a revolutionary. God hates all these people who are trying to break away from the Spanish king. Who the hell are they? They are not on the side of the angels. And Bolivar, you know, is, here's this from one particular Although it's being said from, you know, church to church to church. And he responds to a priest's fire and brimstone sermon about how they're all damned and go to hell. And he says, this is attributed to him, if nature opposes us, we shall fight against it and force it to obey. It's very enlightenment, isn't it?

Yeah, isn't it, isn't it? Exactly that. Tito Salas, who's the father of modern art in South America a lot later. I mean, he paints this terrible tragedy. something that breaks the soul of Venezuela and these terrible earthquakes. So it's certainly a thing that, you know, if you are from Venezuela, you know when God didn't feel like he was on your side. It's rather wonderful painting. I'm looking at it now.

Yeah. Yeah. And one of the wonderful reds and blacks and whites. It makes the whole earthquake look rather attractive. God. She's absolutely not what the artist intended, but all gay. So nature has. punished Venezuela for declaring independence, but then the Spanish come in no uncertain manner.

The Spanish Captain Domingo de Monteverde leads a determined royalist counter-offensive from the West. And need to tell us what happens. Well, so the Republican forces are already, you know, depleted because as I said, it was actually jolly bad luck that the earthquake hits their centers are particularly hard. So, you know, they're struggling to mount any kind of effective resistance. And you've got regional militias and local leaders and, you know, no centralized control. There is a spirit of wanting freedom, but there is no organisation behind how you get to that freedom. So are the rebels in any sense coherent or are they all spit up and divided?

No, not at this point. No, I mean, they're regional militias, you know, led by possibly rich and powerful men who are used to having their say in their particular regional plantation. but they may not be the best at, you know, leading a military force, and they're certainly not together. This sounds a bit like 1857 in India that we had in our mutiny series or our First War of Independence series where all these different landowners are rising up, but they're not coordinating with each other. Right. And the imperial colonial forces, which are centralized and coherent, can take them out one by one. Similar sort of thing.

Well, I mean, it's sort of been noted that, you know, they spend as much time fighting each other as they do fighting the empire. And the reason that they are as divided, apart from the fact that you've got these different people who aren't used to being told what to do who are leading these military junters is that you have also class and racial tensions. So you have enslaved people or padros mixed race people who are sometimes siding or often siding with the royalists because the royalists come in. And we saw this, did we not, with the British and the American Revolution. they are promising freedom to the slaves. They're just saying, you know what, if you side with us, if you side with the crown, we will grant you your freedom.

And these guys who are leading the revolution, they are your slave drivers. Recognise him. It's his plantation that you used to work on. Recognise him. It's him who's swallowed up your entire family and you've been, you know, working for for generations. So oddly, you know, an enslaved population

is siding with the country that demands, the fruits of their labour until this point in time. But is that a surprise? Because the Creoles who are declaring independence are the slave owners. Right. Well, it works. It works because it's a narrative that makes sense. I mean, you know, you'd have to delete from your mind that the Creoles were driving them to work

so that they could send stuff to the Spanish monarchy. I mean, you'd have to delete that from your mind. But if you can do that and you believe the promise, sure, of course you would side of them. Of course you would. But I think, again, we shouldn't expect 18th century revolutionaries to be Che Guevara. In a sense, we try to read these people backwards and turn them into Castro's and Gavaras. And they're not. They're slave owners.

They're plantation owners wanting more power and more control, which is a very different thing, albeit ones who've had, you know, read a bit of Montesquieu and a bit of Voltaire. Yeah, I mean, I entirely don't disagree with this at all. We just remember in America, you know, the founding fathers were slave owners. Yeah. We went through all that is exactly. the same thing. But, you know, people go through a journey. That is the parallel, isn't it? It's Washington all over again. Yeah. Well, I mean, Jefferson in particular, all over again. So where does Bolivar fit into all of this? Shall we talk about Bolivar's attitudes towards

slavery? You can read it both ways. There are, there are, there's enough evidence in his letters and different times of his life to interpret him in different ways. When he was young, he had a vested interest in this system because it's what his family did. It's what his family is always. done. It's basically what made him a very, very rich and eligible bachelor. But, you know, he's also been steeped in these Enlightenment ideas. He's had a teacher who has exposed him to enlightenment ideas. So, you know, he's got this own struggle happening within himself. I think consistently, I think I'm right in saying, and correct me if I'm wrongly to that he's always against democracy. He doesn't believe Venezuela or Latin America or however he visited

at this point. That they're capable of running their own shot. He's capable of running. And, you know, not after a democratic system. So I think that's so interesting. I think it's such an important point because this is what actually puts him in a collision course with Miranda, who remember it was his brother in arms, because Miranda does believe in that. Miranda does believe that, you know, the people should have a say in this new world that we are creating for them, whereas Bolivar is not.

So just getting back to the slavery thing, even though he's been exposed to these enlightenment thoughts, when he's with his own Creole allies, the ones who are running the other junters and who have the power, he tones down anything he might have thought about liberating the enslaved population. So if he'd give him the benefit and the doubt, why did he not speak out about ending slavery? You know, you were talking about pragmatism before. The other reason, I mean, back to, you know, so the battle with the Spanish, the reason that there was a great difficulty in pushing them back, you know, the command structure is a mess. It's diabolical. You've got every man, Jack, who thinks they should be in charge.

And nobody there to tell them, actually, you know what, it would be much, much better if we followed that guy. They all think they're the guy. And for the others in Venezuela, particularly the rural areas, this feels like a big city swinger revolt. You know, these are the guys with the canes and the nice suits who are making all the noise. This is a city. It's nothing to do with us. So beyond the big city, like Caracas, there's limited support and appetite for this kind of chaos. And why would anyone support these guys? They're the slave drivers. There's no reason to have a popular revolt if the people leading the revolt that are the slave

owners. Unless you're promising something like freedom, unless you're actually making it explicit, which people like Bolivar can't do because then they lose all their lateral support, you can't make that promise. You'll lose all of the people who do have guns and men. And these guys have kind of local militias. but while the Spanish forces have got a proper up-and-running full-scale military, and they're completely outgunned.

So what does Miranda do? So poor Miranda, right? Miranda's a brave man. There is no doubt about this. You know, he's sort of riding from militia to militia saying, you know, this is, come on, let's fight. And he's right at the front of this battle against the Spanish troops. And he's the Republic's military commander.

This is... Absolutely right. I mean, as much as you can command, you know, a rag-turg army that's not listening particularly. But when it just looks as though it's all going just dreadful. And he is, remember, you know, that Draco Malfoy face, look him up. I mean, you know, sort of, he's the face of independence. He's been watching his side being hammered, losing in blood and coin, and just showing no sign of being united or organized in any way.

So he signs a capitulation with the royalist commander, Captain Monteverdi, in July of 1812. And this is so shocking, weirdly shocking. I mean, because they're there. They can see what's happening. But Bolivar takes this as a personal betrayal. Does Bolivar want to kind of lead a guerrilla action up in the hills, retreat into the mountains, all that sort of thing? He just says we fight until the last man. He is the guy who made that, you know, while there's blood in my veins, we shall fight, fight, fight for independence.

That's a 22-year-old. And he's still that guy. So by 1812, Bolivar has risen up to be the other rival military commander. And after Miranda signs this capitulation, Bolivar reacts by having his friend arrested. And he hands him over to the forces of the Spanish crown, which is effectively a death sentence. So this is a very dodgy personal moment. And actually, towards the end of his life, Willie, he will express regret for what he did. It will be one of those decisions that will bother him into the rest of his life.

And what happens to Miranda? Well, shall I tell you, I mean, it's awful. It's kind of a pitiful, pitiful end. He's taken into custody. He's moved to a prison in Cadiz, and he dies just a few years later, you know, a broken, emaciated figure. So for a man who was celebrated as this, you know, the great... Dashing revolutionary, yeah. Yeah.

I mean, he died considered a traitor to the cause by many, and he died broken. and far away from home. Sad. And we should talk about Bolivar, because, you know, it's not safe for Bolivar to hang about now the Spanish of one. So he has to get out. And he's kind of lucky enough to escape arrest. He doesn't go, you know, he hands Miranda over and he makes his getaway.

And he flees to Colombia. And it's in Colombia in 1813 that he makes this decision that will define his military career and also stay in his legacy forever. So, you know, we talk about how complicated this man is. Because what he does is he says, this is going to be a war to the death. It's an infamous decree from Bolivar. Any Spaniard who did not actively support the revolution would be executed. Full stop.

Any American who supported Spain will be executed. This is total war. There is no quarter. There is no mercy. This sounds very 20th century, doesn't it? This sounds like the sort of internal fighting of the Maoists. or the Russian revolutionaries. And it's not what Miranda believed.

And Miranda said, you know, you have to let people, you know, give up. You have to let them raise a white flag. You have to, you know, you have to be magnanimous in victory. If you're going to have victory, you know, any counter-revolutionary conspirators, Bolivar said, you know, kill him immediately when they were fighting. And he said, no, I don't think so. I don't think that's what we are going to be about. Miranda says, you know, automatically if you're born in Spain, we shouldn't kill you.

Whereas Bolivar says, no, there's no place for them in Venezuela. If they were born in Spain, they can get out. So you see this, you know, actually quite extreme positioning of Bolivar. And if you needed more evidence, does he mean what he says? After one battle, you know, before he's fled, he orders the cold-blooded execution of around 800 Spanish prisoners. Bolivar did do that. A staggering piece of violence. But Bolivar believed it is necessary if you want a nationalist movement, if you want to scare your enemies, if you want to force Americans to choose sides and make collaboration with Spain impossible, that is what you're going to have to do.

Again, it sounds Stalinist or Maoist. This is, again, revolutionaries turning to really intense bloodshed and against all the kind of established rules of law and respecting prisoners, which is very much around in the 18th century. you don't mask a prisoner's date, etc. anymore you do in the 21st century. So the brutality goes both ways, doesn't it? The Spanish are also very brutal at this point. Tell us about that, Nita. Let's crystallise them in the figure of one person who actually haunts Bolivar's nightmares, and his name is Jose Thomas Boves. If you sort of saw Miranda as a sort of luminous kind of character,

Boves is not that, okay? He's a brute by the look at this portrait. in front of me at the moment. It's not great, is it? No, I mean, describe. He's a kind of bull in epaulettes and, yeah. Yeah, and really sort of snarly brownie. He had been a Spanish sailor had been arrested for smuggling, and he'd been sent to the dungeons

of Puerto Cabello, and then he was exiled to Venezuela, where, you know, he fell in with this marauding bunch of cowboys. He's described as being strong-shouldered with an enormous head and piercing blue eyes and a pronounced sadistic streak. the man you want opposing you at this point, no. No, really not. And he ends up leading the legions of hell. Now, these are hordes of wild plainsmen and mostly actual mixed race indigenous people.

This is a complicated line up here. So the indigenous are against Bolivar. They are because, you know, he's Creole, man. He's been driving us into the dirt for ages. So they hate him. So they join Bovis. And they use the weaponry of the indigenous. So they have these sort of long lances carved out of palm hardened to, you know, sharp points.

And you sort of heat them in the fire. So the sap hardens. And they're really very dangerous. And they fight while they ride a gallop. You know, they can hang from the side of their horses like, you know, the armies of Genghis Khan or Cossacks. You know, they are deadly accurate. They are very frightening. And they ride with Bovis.

And they don't fight for political ideology, but they want vengeance against this rule. ruling class that has kept them down for such a long time. And the Spanish, you know, they come forward again. And like, as they do to the enslaved people, they say to these indigenous people riding behind Beavos and these sort of, you know, the cowboys, if you like, they say you will have freedom and we will give you land if you fight and if you kill them. This again has echoes with our American series where the black slaves fight with the British in the War of Independence. And these are not simple blacks and whites. There's a lot of grey areas.

If all the indigenous against Bolivar and Bolivar is a slave owner hanging out with the plantation owners, it's a very different story to the one we had, for example, in Haiti, where it's the slaves rising up against the French. This is a very different story. Bervis and his forces are absolutely brutal, and they really do show no mercy at no quarter, and you have cities that are sacked, and atrocities become routine. And you have, by 1816, Bolivar, who keeps sort of dipping in and out, you know, trying to fight from wherever he can with whatever he's got is defeated multiple times. And then he ends up on the run in 1816 from the legions of hell.

And he ends up in Jamaica. I love the legions of hell. I'm glad you do. He didn't so much. But he ends up first in Jamaica. And then he goes to Haiti, which you've just been talking about. So he flees to his fellow slave owners in Jamaica. Jamaica is at this point the biggest slave centre in 1811 in the world.

It's not uninteresting, is it? Not uninteresting at all that he does that. I was expecting a much more sort of hero. When we started off with him, you know, as this sort of Latin lover boy with his fancy wife and everything. But actually, you get this. I told you, it's complicated. But both things can be true. You can feel sorry for the, you know, the young kid who's kind of all at a loss and sort of

floating around and, you know, losing everybody he's ever cared about to, you know, this slightly. brutal. Dogy. It's a very dodgy thoughts about warfare. Resting his best friend, massacring prisoners. He's not an easy hero, this guy. Not easy. No, but on Empire, we don't serve them up.

Simple and two-dimensional, do we? But if you want to see how these visits to Jamaica and Haiti will influence his political views and his legacy, and you can't wait, just join our club for the price of a coffee a month. month, EmpirepodUK.com, Empowerpoduk.com, and you get these mini-series all in one go. Till the next time we meet, it's goodbye from me, Anita Arnan. And goodbye from me, William Duremberg. Spotify, it's Jay Shetty. Are you one of those media strategy people?

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