Empire: World History - 398. Stalin: The Great Terror (Part 4)

Episode Date: September 23, 2026

Soon after Stalin’s purges and mass violence, Nazi soldiers launch a surprise invasion of the Soviet Union, opening up the Eastern Front of World War II.  Who was Stalin’s chief executioner who still holds a Guinness World Record for his number of executions? Why was Stalin surprised that Hitler invaded through Operation Barbarossa when his generals had been warning of an imminent attack? And how did the opening of the Eastern Front change the trajectory of the Second World War? In Episode 4 of this series, Anita Anand and William Dalrymple are joined once again by Giles Milton, author of The Stalin Affair, to discuss the purges, show trials, and Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union. Brought to you by Plaud. Empire listeners can use code 'EMPIRE' to get a 10% discount on their first order at this link: https://uk.plaud.ai/empire Join the Empire Club: Unlock the full Empire experience – with bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to miniseries and live show tickets, exclusive book discounts, a members-only newsletter, and access to our private Discord chatroom. Sign up directly at empirepoduk.com. Email: [e-mail] Instagram: @empirepoduk Blue Sky: @empirepoduk X: @empirepoduk Assistant Producer: Imogen Marriott Editor: Bruno Di Castri Social Producer: Charlie Johnson Producer: Anouska Lewis Executive Producer: Dom Johnson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by our friend Plaud, the world's number one AI note-taker brand. Now, when it comes to research, we all have our own methods sitting for hours in the archive, reading the secondary works, capturing every detail, grilling top scholars. But often we have to lose material in order to remain engaged when doing an interview. We've all been there sitting there with our notes, missing half the vital bits of conversation. and that no longer need happen ever again. Because now you just put Plaud on your collar and bingo. It records everything you say and transcribes it into sensible action points that you can refer to afterwards.

I only picked up Plaud a few weeks ago and already it's changing the way that I work. With One Press, the device transcribes those real conversations and turns them into clear actions. It also has a brilliant feature called Ask Plaud, which calls up details of hazy, long-gone conversations. in seconds. Empire listeners can go to UK.plaud.aI.4-E-I-Fourd-A-I-Ford-S-E-E-I-Fourd. And use the promo code Empire to get 10% off any Plaud device. From a murder in Leningrad in 1934 to the ruins of Stalingrad nine years later, this is the story of how Stalin turned terror into the central weapon of his rule. Sergei Kirov was a popular party boss and he was a possible rival to Stalin.

Within months, he was shot dead in circumstances that were never properly investigated. So, did Stalin order the killing or did he exploit it to unleash what we now know as the Great Terror? And after purging his army and ignoring repeated warnings of a German invasion, how did he use that same machinery of fear to stop the Soviet Union from collapsing? Hello and welcome to Empire with me Anita Arndh And me, William Durable. Now in this episode we are going to be talking a little less about who Stalin was and a little more about what he actually did with all of the power that he spent 30 years accumulating.

It's a grim and dark episode. Now in the last episode, which was also fairly grim and fairly dark, we left Trotsky dead in August 1940. with an ice pick in the back of his head. Oh, didn't we say it was an ice axe? Didn't we have this huge in-depth conversation? It is, in fact, a nice axe. Now, today we're going to lay the groundwork for Stalin's extraordinary rise to the top.

But we may have to go back a little in time to sow the seeds of the story with yet another gruesome murder, which is how we like to roll on this particular pod. we are joined once again by our gruesome friend, Giles Milton, joining us from Lumpfram Burgundy. There's a build-up, Giles. I've never been introduced like that before. Thanks, Willie. Can I see the fragrant and charming, Giles Milton?

Charles, most importantly, I mean, those of you've been following this series, has been our wonderful guide, and he is the author of the Stalin affair, the Impossible Alliance that won the war. Can we start by just doing a pen sketch of Sergei Kirov and just how important Kirov was to the Bolshevik machine. He was an old fellow revolutionary, a great friend of Stalin. He'd been a supporter of the Bolsheviks from the very beginning, really.

And it became apparent, as Stalin was tightening his grasp on power, that there was one potential rival, and that was Sagar Kirov. And I think that Stalin realized that Kierov represented a very real danger to his grip on power and that it would be much easier to dispose of him, get rid of him. And so, as you said, he was to be murdered. The great mystery is, was Stalin actively implicated in his murder? Or did other people see the way the wind was blowing and decided to take it into their own hands? We just don't know.

It's a mystery that's gone on ever since it took place and we don't know. But the consequences were to prove remarkable grim and gruesome because this would unleash the great terror. Yeah, I mean, just before we get into the mechanisms of the murder as well, we should say that, you know, Stalin is a paranoid nut by this point. And Kirov is, you know, he's a better looking man. He's a more charismatic man. He speaks better. You like your men with this swept back hair, that sort of 1930s sort of tsunami.

You know, it's not a high bar. But, I mean, is it true? There's that kind of pettiness that Stalin was. worried about, you know, that he is better looking, he's more charismatic. I mean, you know, there is, if he's still here, because he never says he wants the job. You've got to choose your favourite Stalin pin-up, you thought that Stalin was a looker last time, but now you're going off with his rival. They're one lady's a bit paranoid. Young Stalin. He represented a threat to Stalin, that's for sure. He was extremely popular. And I think one thing that's

absolutely fascinating about the launch of the Great Terror is that Starlin, is that Starry Stalin had watched, in fascination, the Reichstag fire, which had happened just a few months earlier. Many people will remember that the Reichstag in Berlin was set on fire. A communist named Marinas van der Luber was arrested, and all the blame was piled onto him and the communists. And Hitler used this to ban freedom of speech, to ban all the civil liberties, and to really take control of Germany at that point. And I think Stalin, it was in fact one of Stalin's closest comrades, Anastas Mikhailian. His son actually said that Stalin had watched the Reichstag fire with the greatest interest.

In what sense, Giles, and I mean, presumably wasn't television coverage of this? He was following it on the newsreels, following it in the newspapers, and clearly thought this idea of hoaxing a conspiracy is a brilliant way to seize power, to seize even more power. We'll never know if this was a case, but it was certainly, you know, we have. on pretty good authority from someone in Stalin's inner circle, that he saw the Reichstag's fire as a model that he could use to really secure his total grip on power in the Soviet Union. Charles, what was the method of the shooting? What was the circumstances? Was he sort of followed home and shot? What was the method used? It's very, very murky. He was shot by a failed junior a functionary in the Bolshevik party named Leonid Nikolaev, who burst into his office or in the

corridors outside his office and shot him in the neck. And Leonie was immediately pronounced guilty and was executed. But there are numerous accounts that suggest otherwise. We just don't know, but what we do know is that everyone who was in Kirov's circle ended up dying in very mysterious circumstances very shortly afterwards. Including even the kind of vand, drivers, apparently. These are the people who transported Nikolaev. So, I mean, the reason we can't know whether Nikolaiov received direct orders from Stalin is the van drivers were arrested and mysteriously died in odd circumstances. Anyone who chatted to him as he was being transported, there's this whole sort of chain reaction of death. So anyone who saw even Nikolaiev is erased

from the copybook. So that's why we don't know. We don't know whether it's a direct order or not. And is this read, Giles, at the time, as the beginning of a purge? Does everyone know what's going on or is it successfully covered up? No, at the time, no one knew what was coming. But clearly, from Stalin's point of view, this was the ideal moment to purge all those who had supported Trotsky, of course, all those who were criticising his management of the Soviet Union, which, of course, was causing absolute chaos. starvation in the countryside, the collectivization, the liquidation of the Kulax, the rich peasants.

This was causing total economic catastrophe in the Soviet Union, and Stalin had plenty of critics. And I think he saw this death of Kirov as the ideal opportunity to pounce and to round up and execute anyone who might criticize him or stand in the way of his rule. And he starts with big names. I mean, it's not that, you know, sort of starts small and works his way up. I mean, he goes straight for Gregori Zinoviye, who was one of Lenin's closest allies, and one of the most powerful figures in the Bolshevik party after the 1917 revolution. And Lev Kamev, who, you know, again, another sort of stalwart, one of the fathers of the revolution. Can you tell us, I mean, what happened? How were they

rounded up on how were they put on trial, these show trials that started? Yes, just to give the context, there are going to be three major show trials. One is called trial of the 16, the next one is called the trial of the 17, and then there's a trial of the 21. And these are key people, key old Bolshevik figures who've really been with Stalin from the very beginning. They were the ones that spearheaded the revolution. And beyond that, of course, the terror is going to spread massively right across the Soviet Union and is going to implicate and in fact end in the deaths of perhaps up to 1.2 million people are going to be killed in the terror. But you're right to say the trial of the 16, the first trial of Zinoviev and

Kamenev. These were two of the great supporters of the revolution. They could not be closer to the center of power. And you've got to remember what's remarkable about these trials. Not only is Stalin rounding up some of his closest friends, you know, and supporters. But these people all live within the compound of the Kremlin. So, you know, they are maybe a few hundred meters from Stalin's, where Stalin lives, and he's now arresting them. And they're going to be charged principally with the murder of Kirov. They're going to be charged with planned assassination of Stalin and those in his inner circle. And they're going to be charged with the crime of wanting to restore capitalism to the Soviet Union. And of course, over all of us, as like an umbrella over all of

this, is the fact that they are friends or associates of Trotsky. And so this is, you you know, fairly weighty charges that are against them. It's going to be a show trial. It's going to be held in public. There are going to be reporters reporting on it. Many, numerous witnesses. And, of course, the chief prosecutor is going to be Vichinsky, one of the most monstrous chief prosecutors in history,

which I'm sure we could come on to him in a minute. Well, let's come on to him now. Why was he monstrous? I mean, now you've teased this. Don't leave his hanging, Charles. What was monstrous about him? Vyszynski was a fellow Bolshevik revolutionary. He was from a Polish Catholic family, well-to-do family,

who joined the revolution and became an absolute stalwart of the revolution. In June 1933, so just before all this is beginning, he was made Prosecutor General of the Soviet Union. One of the quotes attributed to him, which I like, he says, give me the man and I will find the crime. And this was his approach to justice. He determined that people were getting. guilty and he was going to find the guilty.

Who could complain at that, Giles? What unreasonable person would mind that approach to prosecution? So, you know, his hallmark was really, his signature was forced confessions, torture in the basement of the Lubyanka prison. He didn't have the slightest need for any evidence. He was going to force confessions out of everyone. And he used this incredibly colourful languages in his court cases. He would refer to decayed people, terrorist thugs, degenerates,

the dregs of society. This is really powerful stuff. And one little detail, which I find absolutely fascinating, is in the trials. As I said, there were numerous witnesses in these trials, journalists and whatever. One of them sitting in on those trials was Roland Fraser, who was to become one of the Nazis judges under Hitler.

He listened to Bersinski's means of operating and thought, this will do very nicely for us back in Berlin. It is incredible. These methods being used, by Stalin in the Soviet Union, are then being exported to Nazi Germany. So these two regimes, which, you know, hate each other, are actually using exactly the same totalitarian methods to round up their people and kill them.

There's also, I mean, you know, the cruelty of killing is one thing. But there's also this sort of new thing of, if you accept that you are guilty, we will send you to prison for, you know, five, ten years. I mean, that's what they said, both to Zinoviev and to, Kamenev, they said, you know, look, just go along with it. You'll go to prison for a long time. It won't be lovely, but you'll survive it. And then they get dragged out and shot anyway. Yes, I mean, that Stalin's doing. He's the one that promises, yes, you'll be spared.

Your family will be fine. Don't worry. Just say you're guilty and I'll make sure you're okay. You'll have a couple of years in a gulag, but you'll be looked after, you know. Well, not a bit of it. They say they're guilty. They admit to their guilt, which is, of course, fake. And then they are promptly shot on Stalin's orders, you know, the very next night. So that's a hallmark of these trials. trials, they're overlaid with lies, with false confessions, torture. There's not a single ounce of justice. One little detail, which I think is very interesting. The show trials, as I say, they started with the trial of the 16 and we'd go on to these other great public trials. But there was one trial, in fact, Vosinski's first trial, which I think is absolutely

fascinating, because who did he bring Hall into court? It was a load of Brits, because the British had signed an Anglo-Soviet trade agreement and British companies had moved into the Soviet Union to try and get some work. And one of those companies was Metro Vickers. And they were helping to establish the electrification of the Soviet Union. But in 1933, they were accused, these British working in Moscow were accused of being spies. They were hauled into court. Vishinsky did his usual act of, you know, you're betraying the Soviet Union, charged them with espionage, and they were found guilty and they were chucked into prison. And those employees, led by Alan Monkhouse,

they were extremely lucky that the UK cut off trade relations, briefly with the Soviet Union, at which point they were all released and sent back home. But it's a little known fact that these show trials, which will see many of the great sort of Bolshevik leaders executed, began with the British company, Metro Vickers, and all their employers also being found guilty of crimes they did not commit. And, Jans, how quickly does this escalate? I mean, is it something that starts slowly, or does Stalin go all in straight away? I mean, does the Great Terror sort of go off like a jet plane?

Yeah, well, it does. It does. So the first trial, the first big trial is in the summer of 1936. By January 1937, you have the trial of the 17, as it was called. These are people like Radak, the old Bolsheviks who've been in there from the very beginning. They're all rounded up and they're all executed. And then, you have the trial of the 21, people like Yagoda and Bukharin, who is on the central committee. I mean, he is an absolute central figure. And as I said, both of them living in the Kremlin, very close to Stalin's apartment, they have been, it has to be said, critics of Stalin's approach to running the Soviet Union, particularly collectivization, which has caused massive problems with the grain harvest. It's called starvation across the Soviet Union. They're accused to being Toskiites, they are put on trial, and again, they forced confessions, torture, et cetera, and found guilty.

Now, presumably by this stage, Giles, you've already got this idea of sort of five-year plans. Everyone's been given quotas of what they've got to produce. But the Pollock Bureau, in a kind of bizarre move at this point, actually gives a quota for the number of arrests region by regions. And it assigns, just like it's sort of, you know, as if it's steel production or the amount of coal that's meant to be produced from the mines. at 72,950 victims, 28% should be shot,

the rest should be given 8 to 10 years in prison or labour caps. Who comes up with this? Well, this is Stalin himself, and in fact, Stalin personally signs off these. 28, not 27? I mean, does someone get in trouble if they do 29% of shootings rather than... It's insane, but you have this picture of Stalin sitting in his Kremlin office, growing through these lists and saying, no, we'll add a couple more here. No, that one, maybe we'll save that one, you know.

It was micro-management on an insane level in how to kill people. I mean, you know, we have these awful chilling albums where, you know, sort of 383 separate booklets of names and lists, which presumably Stalin personally sort of sits, looks through peruses like he's ordering off a menu and sort of writes names, adds, numbers and directions of what's going to happen to them. Deliveroo Stalin style. That's exactly what he did. He was micromanaging this whole affair. And so you have this, the great terror is spreading right across the Soviet Union.

So the most farthest flung provinces are being affected. People are being rounded up. Completely innocent people. Entire families convicted on trumped up charges and executed. But perhaps, you know, then to bring it back to Moscow, there's still the big show trials of the big beasts is taking place. And at one point, Stalin decides that the army, and the Navy need to be purged as well.

And this is perhaps one of the most extraordinary and most damaging of the purges. When he decides, well, just look at some of the figures. There are five marshals in the Soviet army. Three of them are arrested and executed. There are 15 army commanders. 13 of them are arrested and executed. And there are nine Navy generals, eight of them are arrested and executed.

Now, this is going to be an absolute disaster that's going to come back and haunt Stalin, because, of course, in a few years' time, Hitler is going to evade the Soviet Union. And when Stalin looks around to see, you know, who's actually going to counter this invasion, well, he's killed all his senior generals and some of the most successful ones at that.

He has basically taken the legs out of his own Red Army by doing this, as you say. But it isn't just the big beasts that are being rounded up. I mean, there's this really terribly sad character, Osser Piotritsky, who was, you know, he'd been on the central. committee for ever, even before Stalin was on the central committee. And he's sort of brave enough, this elderly man, white-haired, stands up and says, I don't like these show trials. This is not

what we're having a revolution for. And he is sort of taken by Molotov around the corner and also executed. I mean, so it's just at any level you could be rounded up and taken away and deleted. And Anita, it should be said that, you know, several thousand Americans and Brits had moved to the Soviet Union, this sort of utopia as they saw it, that had been created. And Henry Ford had set up factories in the Soviet Union. Many of these workers were now rounded up, sent to Goulags, executed. Victor Herman, he was American, Gulag. John Chitevsky executed. He was American. Pat Breslin, Irish died in a Gulaig. An English feminist and suffragette who'd moved to the Soviet Union editor of the Moscow Times, English language newspaper, arrested and executed. So this went way beyond

just Soviet citizens. It was all these fellow travelers who'd moved to this utopia find themselves either in a gulag or dead. We're going to take a break now, but when we get back, we're going to ask what's really going on in Stalin's mind as he unleashes this wave of terror on Russia. Hey, this is Michael and Hannah from Gollhangers. The Rest is Science. This episode is brought to you by Cancer Research UK. Think of some things that glow. Okay, fireflies, glow sticks, the northern lights. They're very cool. But what if we could replicate that glow inside our bodies and what if doing so could help us save lives? Because Cancer Research UK scientists, they're investigating whether a special fluorescent dye that sticks to prostate cancer cells could tackle an ongoing

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How was Stalin inspired by such delightful figures as Ivan the Terrible and Genghis Khan when he unleashed the great terror on the Soviet people in the 1930s? Well, I mean, we know a little bit about this because he underlines in a book, a line attributed to Genghis Khan. And it says, this is the line, the deaths of the vanquished are necessary for the tranquility of the victors. And he also criticises Ivan the Terrible for being too soft. So, you know, you know who he's trying to model himself, aren't? Can't argue with that, really. I mean, I haven't the terrible, you know, these pinko-liberals in Russian history. Charles, throughout this absolutely tawdry period of history where people are being dragged out

and, you know, in front of their screaming families, along with their screaming families, and executed. One man enters the Guinness Book of Records. Tell us a little bit about him. Well, if you're going to execute thousands of people, you really need a very, very proficient execution. And Stalin was blessed with having Vasili Blochin, an ex-shepherd and bricklayer who decides to turn his hands to executing people. And he was absolutely brilliant at it. He executed tens of thousands of people. At the infamous Katyn Forest Massacre, he personally killed 7,000 people in 28 days.

He worked all night long, 10 hours in a row, and he said he could kill one prisoner. every three minutes. And this would earn him, as you say, he would enter the Guinness Book of Records as the most prolific executioner in history. He just shoots them? Does he have a variety of methods? Or what's his preferred technique?

So what do you like to do? So he, first of all, he always dressed in the same clothes. He wore a leather butcher's apron, a leather hat and shoulder-length leather gloves. He would turn the prisoner around, hold his revolver up to the back of their neck and put a single shot into their brain. That was his preferred method of execution.

It should be said, and perhaps, you know, it's not that surprising. He was also an alcoholic and mentally unstable. No. Really? Okay. Surprise. But yes, he killed, as I say, tens of thousands of people and he incidentally personally killed Zinoviev, Kamenev and Bukharin,

who had written these begging letters not to be killed, Stalin personally ordered them to be shot by his faithful Vasili Blockin. I mean, at some point, you've got to imagine Stalin's just sort of sitting there on a throne going, you can be dead, you can be dead, you can be dead, you can be dead, because even the man who compiles his albums of death eventually gets put to death. It's quite extraordinary, really, that Stalin would just be signing off the lives of 10th of thousands of people. And I don't know if I can just give a little, a little, because this is a rather grim story we're telling here. And there are a few bright moments. And in the very, at the very moment,

when the show trials are at their worst, the American ambassador to Moscow, William Bullitt, decides to hold the greatest party that Moscow has ever seen. It is to be the Spring Ball held on the 24th of August 1935. And he imports a forest of birch trees. He has the main dining room table covered in tulips. He has a chickory lawn planted in the ballroom. He brings in an aviary aviary with pheasants, with parrots, with 100 finches. He brings in mountain goats, 12 roosters and a baby bear. And then he invites... I'm glad he's got some mountain goats. I always feel that you need a tribe of mountain goats at your parties. Anyway, he brings these into the American embassy or the American residence, Spaso House in Moscow.

then he invites all of Stalin's surviving commissars, and they have a great, great party. And in fact, the only sort of down thing on the whole day, or the whole evening, is that the bear got terrifically drunk on champagne and vomited over one of the Soviet generals, which was a bit of a black spot on the evening. But it is kind of extraordinary to think that this kind of gaiety is taking place in the heart of Moscow,

where tens of thousands of people, hundreds of thousands of people, are being sent to be executed. Charles, I'm quite intrigued by what you were saying about the Kremlin itself, that they're all kind of living in a compound. Is it collegiate? Is this a sort of communal dining? Are these people who are being, you know, informing on each other and executing each other?

Toasting one evening and then stabbing each other in the head. Yeah. Are they all living together in, you know, cheek by Jowl, or are they in their little houses, living family lives? How does it work? No, they had their little apartments within the Kremlin compound. They often eat together. They get drunk together. They get horrendously drunk together.

Interestingly, Stalin, everyone's always, you know, saying how he was drinking vodka all the time. Stalin didn't drink vodka. In fact, Stalin often didn't drink alcohol at these dinners. What he liked to do was get everyone else completely drunk and he remained completely sober. And actually he did the same with some very amusing accounts of the American ambassador, the British ambassador, getting right royally drunk at these things and then realizing that Stalin, his vodka glass, which he kept doing shots of, was actually full of water, not vodka at all. I mean, he did exactly that at Yalta. I mean, that's the hilarious thing.

And he acted drunk. He could act drunk as well. But when it came to memorising everything that had been said or getting his way, it's how he did it. You know, I sort of threw this in as a line that the man who compiled his albums also ends up being put to death. I'm talking about Nikolai Yezov. And let's just stay with that for one second because he was the head of the secret police. He was, you know, one of the architects of the Great Terror as the pinnacle of the NKVD, the very feared NKVD. And Stalin just suddenly decides in some kind of paranoid haze after Yerzov has helped him put thousands of people to death that he has to go.

And his replacement is a name that people probably will be familiar with. He's a Georgian and his name is Leverente Berrier, who was so memorably played by Simon Russell Beale in The Death of Stalin. And this man, Giles, I mean, is a criminal. I mean, he is a rapist. He's a personal brute. I mean, he enjoys seeing the life leak out of somebody's eyes. He was one of the most monstrous henchmen of this entire regime barrier.

He had total control over everyone and everything. As you say, he was said to have raped numerous young women. women and then killed them. And in fact, when many years later, I think it was in the 70s or 80s, his personal residence became the Italian embassy in Moscow. And they dug up the garden to do install some new drains and everything. And they came across dozens and dozens of skeletons of young women, almost certainly women that Berrier had raped and then killed. And you also mentioned Yezov, who was head of the feared NKVD before Barrier. And indeed before, Yazov, there was Jagoda, who was head of the

NKVD, both of them ended up being executed. This is a classic case of the sort of revolutionary, revolution swallowing its own. So they end up in being, you know, being disposed of by Stalin and the monstrous barrier, who will then be head of this horrific, you know, police state, the NKVD throughout the next few years and indeed throughout the Second World War, where it's going to have a very busy job and barrier, yeah, a monstrous blood-stained criminal. So we're heading, as you just said, towards the Second World War now. And tell us about the Ribbon-Trump Molotov Pact, which is signed in 1939 in the summer. In 1939, the two great powers, the two great autocratic powers of Europe, the Soviet Union

and Nazi Germany, sworn enemies, stunned the world by announcing that they've entered into a pact together, a pact of friendship. This really comes as a bolt from the blue. It shocks absolutely everyone. And it is to have profound and dire consequences because this pact enables Poland to be divided into two separate parts. Nazi Germany will invade the western part of Poland and the Soviet Union will swallow the eastern part of Poland. This, of course, is where Great Britain enters the war. This is really the beginning. of the Second World War, and it is started by this pact signed by Eurkin von Ribbentrop and his opposite number, Molotov, in Moscow in 1939.

And Stalin is very pleased with this, isn't he? He thinks this is a great masterstroke of diplomacy. Stalin is pleased with it, and many people would say, well, it was a masterpiece of diplomacy because both dictators got what they wanted. It should be said, and this is a sort of footnote to history, but I love these little footnotes because they sometimes shed much. light on things that the British themselves had sent an emissary to Moscow to try and negotiate a deal with Stalin similar to the Nazi Soviet pact. So they were hoping to get in their first and sign some sort of alliance with Stalin. Unfortunately, listen to the man that they sent as their emissary. He was called, and I've had to write it down, Sir Reginald Alma Ranfan Lee Plunkett

Earn Earl Drax. He has a quadruple... We don't have nearly enough of these people today. He has a quadruple-barreled surname. And when Stalin was told who the British had sent to negotiate, he simply said, they cannot be serious. And so poor old Sir Reginald arrived in the capital, found that he was not taken seriously, and he was still in Moscow when it was announced that actually Stalin had signed his pact with von Ribbentrop,

and so the Nazi-Soviet deal was a done deal. Oh, although, can I just? say, I mean, this is the tale of two bastards, really, because they both think they're getting the better of each other and they're going to, you know, shiv each other in the showers later because doesn't Stalin say, Hitler thinks he's tricking us, but I think we've got the better of him. You know, that this is not something that is, you know, either of them has signed in Amity. They both reckon that they're doing deals with people who are less than them and who they will ultimately betray.

That's absolutely right. This is the ultimate betrayal pact, in fact. It has far-reaching consequences, of course, because one of the parts of the deal is, that the Soviet Union is going to supply huge numbers of raw, huge amounts of raw materials to Nazi Germany, which will help Hitler consolidate and build the Nazi war machine. So, yeah, it's profound consequences for both Soviet Union and Nazi Germany, for Europe and for the world.

This really fires the gun that will start the Second World War. Stalin uses the breathing space created by the pact to go after the Baltic states, doesn't he? He does, yeah. he's going to swallow as much territory as possible. As I said, he's moved his Red Army into Poland, bringing with it a wave of appalling terror, executions, assassinations,

liquidating any sort of intellectual in Poland. Then he moves into the Baltic states. Then he makes his move on Finland. This is Stalin grabbing as much territory as he can while he's got the opportunity. And then in the early hours of the 22nd of June, 1941, Giles, you have three million German troops crossing into Soviet territory. It's known as Operation Barbarossa. Our sister podcast here at

Goalhanger, we have Waze, has done a whole series on Operation Barbarossa quite recently. And, you know, the thing about this is that, you know, a man who is endlessly suspicious of his friends doesn't see that Hitler is about to betray him. I mean, it's so mad. How did he not see it coming? This is absolutely extraordinary. He has three million venous. Mark's troops on the border. This is going to be the greatest invasion in the history of warfare. There are tanks, there are jeeps, there are enormous amounts of military hardware on the border. On top of that, Stalin is being brought intelligence from his own military, from spies inside the embassy in Tokyo, for example. Even Winston Churchill, who's got very good intelligence

on what's taking place, sends his ambassador to see Stalin to say, this is about to happen, you're about to be invaded. Stalin didn't want to believe it. He said, will not betray the Nazi Soviet pact. And even when in the early hours of the 22nd of June 1941, when the first Germans start to cross the frontier, several of those Germans defect and warn the Soviets what's taking place, this is immediately sent back to Moscow to the Kremlin, to Joseph Stalin. He says, I want those deserters rounded up and shot.

He doesn't believe what they're saying. So this actually causes a great crisis on the front line, because this enables the Wehrmacht, the German army, to roll across the frontier, almost uncontested. Yeah, there's a really lovely memorable line from Krista, decades later, when asked about this, he said, yeah, well, everyone knew. Everyone knew what Hitler was going to do. The sparrows were chirping about it at every crossroad.

So this is like just a really bonkers time in Stalin's already bonkers regime. And Beria is so encouraging Stalin in his people. belief, isn't he? He's telling Stalin how wise he is not to believe these rumors that Hitler's got an invasion plan. That's right. And even as the armies are, you know, moving towards Minsk, Stalin still does not believe. He says this might be just a little incursion or something like that. You know, I'm sure Hitler didn't order this at all. And what happens, which is quite extraordinary, when Stalin finally realizes that this is a massive invasion, he has almost some sort of complete breakdown. He retires to his datcher in the countryside. He refuses to see

anyone. He refuses to take any phone calls. And for three or four days, he is on his own and just denies any responsibility for the running of the state. He does absolutely nothing. He won't see anyone, and it's almost like he's abnegating all responsibility for what's taking place, you know, on the frontiers of the Soviet Union. Yeah, and so, you know, within days you've got a sort of seemingly

a collapse of the army, what is left of the army after his purges, and you've got Stalin disappearing in this nervous breakdown that you've just described. I mean, I'm thinking that this is kind of music to ears in London, because if you've got these two big

beasts fighting each other, that's two fronts for Hitler. Of course, this is going to have profound consequences for Great Britain. Churchill is woken on the morning of Sunday the 22nd of June by his personal secretary and told of this invasion. And for Churchill, this is perhaps one of the greatest moments of his life because he knows now that Hitler is fighting a war on two fronts. It is very, very good news.

The first thing he does, even though it's like 5.30 in the morning, is he pulls out a cigar from his case and lights it in celebration of the news he's just been told. He actually has Anthony Eden, the Foreign Secretary, staying at Chequers as well that weekend, and he goes around in his dressing gown

to Anthony Eden's bedroom, tells him the news and offers him a cigar as well, and Anthony Eden demures and said, no, I can't possibly smoke at this time in the morning. But this is a great moment for Great Britain because there is now the glimmer of hope that actually Hitler has overreached himself and that the Second War War is now at a turning point.

So one of the things that happens during Barbarossa is that among the many, many troops that are rounded up and captured by the very fast advancing vermouth with these extraordinary tank regiments shooting through great acreages of Russia is the son of Stalin, Jakov, from his first marriage. Benny knew his father and is now in the army. He is captured.

What happens to him, Jars? Well, you see, Stalin has issued this order of not, you know, not one step back. And so anyone who is captured or, you know, or surrenders Stalin thinks, well, they simply deserve to be shot. It is greatly unfortunate that Yaakov is indeed captured by the Germans and put into a prison of war camp. And there are sort of stories behind the scenes or attempts to negotiate Yaakov's release. But Stalin simply says, no, I don't, I'm not doing any deal. You know, he might be my son, but he's got captured tough, you know. And extraordinary on the part of Stalin, simply almost disown his son because he's been dishonorable enough to get captured by the Wehrmacht.

And he's still killing senior members of his army as well. There's, you know, a guy called General Pavlov who saw the threat from the Nazis, who told his higher commands that, actually, you know, the Germans are coming for us. Can I fight them back? And he's told, no, stand down. Hitler would never do this to Stalin. He's executed as well. So in the next episode, Giles, we're going to be joined by the wonderful Anthony Beaver, who is going to talk us through what the impact of having no senior commanders left has on Stalingrad, the great siege of Stalingrad. So let's leave this episode, Giles, with the Germans can see the gilded domes of Moscow. They are that close to taking the capital. They are literally just outside

the capital, they're waiting to move in. It's absolute panic inside Moscow. Stalin transfers the government way to the east to the Urals, where they're going to be safe from bombing raids by the Luftwaffe. The entire diplomatic community is moved to a place called Koebushev, again way to the east. The population of the city is also moved out. It is widely believed that the German army, the Vermat, is about to seize control of Moscow. Only Stalin, in fact, in the Kremlin. He decides that he's going to stay there. The only thing that Hitler has not considered, as Napoleon did not consider before him, is that winter in the Russia is extremely cold. And the snow and the ice is about to descend on Moscow. Winter is coming. Winter is coming. If you want to hear the next episode right now and add free, just head off to EmpirePod UK.com. EmpirePod UK. You can become a member and you get all of these series on demand.

Giles, it's been absolutely fabulous having you. Thank you. You're a great storyteller and it is just a horrifyingly great story to tell. Thank you very much indeed. Well, thank you for having me on once again. Great pleasure. Until the next time we meet, it's goodbye from me, Anita Arnden. And goodbye from me, William Droompool.

Do you wish you could just hit skip on the worst parts of your life? You know, the same way you can skip an ad? I get it. I'm Siaia. I live in Ice Cove. I've made some questionable decisions that didn't end up the way I planned. And today, I'm still figuring it out. Somehow things usually get worse before they get better.

Apparently, that's how I roll. So bundle up and come along for the bumpy ride. Stream a new episode of North of North Tuesdays on CBC Gem.