Empire: World History - 88. The Russo-Japanese War: Asia Strikes Back

Episode Date: October 12, 2023

1905 was one of the most pivotal moments in history. Japan, the supposedly weaker Asian power, overwhelmingly defeated the mighty Russian Empire. The effects of this rippled through the 20th century, inspiring nationalism across Asia. The Indian independence movement, through figures like Gandhi, Nehru, and Tagore, took direct inspiration from it, as did Chinese nationalists like Sun Yat-Sen. Russia was equally rocked by this disastrous defeat, putting it well on the road to revolution. Listen as William and Anita are joined by Pankaj Mishra to discuss this epochal moment in the history of Asia and the world. Twitter: @Empirepoduk Email: [e-mail] Goalhangerpodcasts.com Producer: Callum Hill Exec Producer: Jack Davenport + Neil Fearn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you want access to bonus episodes reading lists for every series of Empire, a chat community. Discounts for all the books mentioned in the week's podcasts, add free listening and a weekly newsletter, sign up to Empire Club at www.mpowerpoduk.com. When things stood still like this and we in Asia hypnotised ourselves into the belief that it could never, by any possibility, be otherwise, Japan rose from her dreams and in giant strides left centuries of inaction behind, overtaking the present time in its foremost achievement. This has broken the spell under which we lay in torpor for ages, taking it to be the normal condition of certain races living in certain geographical limits. We forgot that in Asia great kingdoms

were founded. Philosophy, science, arts and literatures flourish and all the great religions of the world had their cradles. It's an unusual start to the program. Hello. Welcome to Empire. It's a goodie. I love that quote. Yeah. Well, I mean, tell us about the quote because it is a powerful, powerful quote. Who did it? So this is Shrabindranat Tagore writing about Japanese nationalism and the rise of Japan in 1916 after the events of the Russo-Japanese war. And it is a moment when, you know, When you're looking back at history, you can see certain points when the tides change. It's impossible to see it at the time. But looking back, you can see them.

And if, in a sense, the beginning of the colonial period can be dated to Vasco da Gama, landing in Calicut, or whichever date you want to take, this one, 1905, in many ways, marks the point which the Western advance over Asia reaches its highest point and then begins to roll back. what the Scots call the Spring Tide and the Nipatide. Yeah. And this is the moment that Asia realizes that it can defeat Europe, can defeat the West, that it is a place with its own astonishing history, its own empires, its own power, that it is the center of science and maths and religion, as Tagore said in that quote. And here we are now in the early 21st century with China, the second power, economic power, on earth, India, about to overtake Germany and Japan in the next decade to become the third economic power in the

world. And we're in a completely different world from that 1905 moment. But going back here, here is the moment that the tide changes and Europe begins to recede and Asia begins to rise. Yeah, and it's very interesting that it is really not talked about here in the West and perhaps there's a reason. I mean, it's had a seismic effect on the way in which Asian countries think of themselves, is hardly spoken about at all in the West. And we have such a great guest to talk us through. The Man on the Subject. Pankaj Mishra, author from The Ruins of Empire, the Revolt Against the West, and the Remaking of Asia. Pankaj, we're so delighted to have you on. Thank you so much for being with us. Thank you. Thank you. And delighted to be with you anytime, really.

I should say Pankaj is not a man that always accepts invitations. I've been trying to bully Pankaj for many years to come to my literary festival. And he's turned me down more often than anyone else. so I'm particularly pleased to get him on this. I mean, he heard I was here. It was your reputation that did it. Yeah, yeah. Bunker, it is true to say that this is a tale of two perceptions, because whereas in Asia, this is a big deal,

this is a turning of a chapter, but in the West, I mean, 1905 doesn't mean very much at all. It's true. I mean, you know, I actually wrote this book because I was astonished by this great disparity between historical narratives, the narrative in Europe and America, in which the big events of the 20th century are the two European Civil Wars, the two World Wars,

and then, of course, the great struggle against Soviet communism, of course, great historical traumas like the Holocaust or what Stalin did to various peoples in Russia's borderlands and indeed to his own people. So these were the big events, and these were the events to which entire libraries were devoted or, you know, if you walk into a bookstore, a majority of the history books would be on these subjects.

And this was nothing about the experiences, perspectives of a vast majority of the world's population, which, as we know, lives in Asia and Africa. What were the events that were more important to them? And indeed, actually, when you think about the present, also more important to the world we inhabit today. and as really pointed out, the world we are going to inhabit very soon in the next few decades. And that's where 1905 and this extraordinary battle between Russia and Japan becomes absolutely crucial. Do you want to just give us, before we go a deep dive, Pankaj, what happened in 2005? What was this central event? So what happened was that, you know, there were sort of

clashes between Russia and Japan several years leading up to 1905. But in 1905, but in 1905, but in 1904, kind of full-scale warlike situation developed. And there were some major battles, and this was a sort of concluding battle, the Battle of Tsushima, where Russia suffered a decisive defeat. And this was really the first time that a major European power with modern weapons had been defeated by an Asian power. And the news really spread around the world very rapidly and impacted a whole range of people from Gandhi, from Nehru to Sunya Tsein, the Chinese nationalist, nationalists in Turkey, in Egypt, in Indonesia, just everywhere. And sort of, you know, this became, the victory of Japan became a kind of demonstration of what Asian nations, Asian countries that had been dominated. bullied, humiliated by European powers, what they could do to regain the dignity and self-respect and sovereignty. Yeah, I mean, we may not hear about it now in the West, but certainly at the time,

those who were in charge knew how dangerous this message was. I mean, I just like to quote something, and it's something that you yourself have used. But it's Lord Curzon, who, anyone who's familiar with this podcast, will know very, very well. The Viceroy of India. So he notes that 1905, he says, the reverber. of that victory have gone like a thunderclap through the whispering galleries of the East. And he knows that this is going to embolden people who have not been happy to be ruled by colonial powers. Far from it. Not happy at all, but have somehow, I don't know, felt that they can't do anything about it, internalised it, you know, maybe not thought that anything better would be coming

their way. And suddenly in this moment, 11 Russian battleships are sunk in a single day. And the world changes. It really does. And I think, you know, I mean, for me, what was really important in this book was to focus on a particular experience of the 19th century for a lot of countries that were once very great and powerful, who had very strong memories of their power and glory in the past, such as the Chinese, the Japanese, of course, Indians. And for them, the 19th century really was a long traumatic period of endless humiliation. It started, of course, early for the Indians. There wasn't much for European presence in China until late in the 19th century. And of course, in Japan, too, it was the second half of the 19th century. Pankaj, you mentioned that this was

something that surprised you when you came to England and to Europe to find that this was an event that was not known. Was this something that you were taught about when you grew up in India? Was this something that everyone knew? I can't actually remember the, time when I first heard about this, which perhaps just goes on to show that this was very much part of, you know, the air you breathe or the water you drank, it was very much, you know, part of the kind of historical narrative you grew up with. So I certainly knew about it before I'd read about it in a history textbook and also knew about Japan's influence on Indian nationalism. That was, that was massive. Can we talk about Japan pre the battle? Yeah. Let's go back to the

the beginning. Yeah. So tell us, I mean, what was the situation in Japan like in the decades before it faces up to the Great Bear and defeats it? I mean, you know, Japan was one of the most isolated countries in the world before the mid-19th century. And then, of course, the Europeans and the Americans broke into Japan and disturbed its centuries-long solitude and started to order the Japanese around. They'd earlier kicked out these things. India Company and the other Europeans, certainly, the Portuguese and the British had tried in the 17th century to make inroads and been shown the door very firmly. It was always extremely resistant, much, much more so than other Asian powers to European and American encroachments. But in the

19th century, they started to succumb. And out of this experience of defeat, humiliation, being bullied around by people they're considered barbarians, I mean, you know, they look down upon these sort of Americans coming in and the Europeans coming in and had only complete contempt for them. So out of this experience, they started to modernize their country, started to adopt Western methods, political institutions, economic policies that they had seen in Europe and elsewhere. They sent out people to Europe and America to learn from Western countries and sort of apply some of those methods, some of those technologies back in Japan. So Japan underwent a very rapid process of modernization in the late 19th century. From being this sort of isolated,

relatively poor country, it became very quickly, a heavily industrialized country with a very modern military. Pankaj, how far does the Emperor Meiji take responsibility for this turnaround? Can we attribute to him the beginnings of this, 1860s? Definitely, I think the so-called sort of Meiji restoration, whereby this new regime managed to reconcile various warring, conflicting aspects of Japanese society and sort of in a way channel all the energies that were then released into the work of National Reconstruction.

So that was the, you know, that was a, sort of big project. And replacing a kind of feudal chogunate with a constitutional monarchy. Exactly. Exactly. Did he also, you know, in this moment of wanting to rebuild the Japanese identity, figure that Japan needed its own empire? I mean, how imperial were his ambitions? The thing is, I mean, I think if you've been bullied around by an empire and in a way felt extremely helpless, then through certain steps, logical steps, you come to the conclusion. And, you know, they did come to the conclusion sort of late 19th century that actually the only way to beat these other empires that are threatening us, are very likely to threaten us, is to have your own

empire in your own backyard. And anyway, what are these barbarians doing in our neighborhood? We've got to throw them out at some point. So I think the germ of Japanese militarism, and we saw, you know, some of the more repellent aspects of it in the 19th, in the 20th century, they were already there in the late 19th. And I think they were to express themselves far more strongly and virulently after the defeat of Russia in 1905. Right. And just before, in the run-up to 1905, I mean, the other reason that Japan feels it can flex is because China is declining. China is in a terrible state in the 19th century.

The century of humiliation now, they call it, don't they? Exactly. The century of humiliation. One setback, fiasco, failure after another. and there is really very little the Chinese intelligentsia can do to arrest, to check this very rapid decline the country is suffering. Not least because the British are selling vast quantities of opium via Hong Kong into China. So for the Japanese, looking at this big neighbor next to them, this is, you know, these are very easy picking. So the Japanese start to become greedy at this point. But, you know, there are a very interesting aspect of this story. I mean, first of all, that so many Chinese, for instance,

traveled to Japan soon after 1905 to learn the secrets of Japanese power. Really? And these Chinese intellectuals turned out to be some of the most important in the intellectual history of modern China. Pankaj, is there any precedent for this in a historical relationship of China and Japan? Because in the periods of Chinese history that I know, you get Japanese intellectuals coming to China to learn about Buddhism and to learn at the feet of the Chinese. Is there any other period before this that the Japanese have been loading it over the Chinese?

Not really because, you know, you didn't have modern communications or modern modes of transport. You couldn't have so many people traveling to Japan. So it was really only in the sort of late 19th century. There was a sort of influx of students. I mean, obviously Japan was seen as a place with good educational institutions. So there were already quite a lot of Chinese students in Japan before 1905. But after 1905, the floodgates opened and a whole lot of people from China went to Japan. And not to mention, you know, people from Burma, people from Java, people from Vietnam, people from everywhere.

Right. I mean, listen, at the risk of doing a dial-remple, let's not jump to post-1905. This is a thing that William does all the time. Let's work towards it in a strict chronological fashion. Absolutely. I'm here as the scary pop-ins just to get everybody back in line. So we're not yet at 1905. I just want to talk a little bit more about the run-up to 1905, which, of course, we're going to go into in detail in a moment. But what is the relationship like between Russia and Japan at this time?

Well, you know, Russia is an expansionist empire. And, you know, at some point in its sort of eastward expansion, it comes into conflict with Japan, not only with not only with Japan, but also with, you know, all the major countries in the east. and, you know, there were a series of, as I said, there were a series of clashes between the two countries, but never a kind of full-scale war of the kind that erupted in 1904. But you do get a full-scale war, though, with Korea, don't you? They land, the Japanese actually land on the peninsula and begin to start eating up chunks of Korea.

Exactly. You know, they're very much in a kind of expansionist mode themselves, because I said, you know, they thought this is actually an empire, is doing. the best way to protect our hard-fought sovereignty and independence. But you have to remember, I mean, Russia is also trying to modernize. Russia is also trying desperately hard to match European power because it's constantly living in a state of paranoia about being attacked from the West. And there is already, you know, too much, too many historical precedents there. So it's trying to accumulate power of a different kind from the one it had previously. This is power that comes

from having a modern economy and having a modern military. So both are expanding. Both Russia and Japan are looking beyond their borders to exert their authority and their position in the world. I mean, to put it really crudely, who tweaks whose nose first? Exactly. That's what really basically happens, is that you have two rapidly modernizing powers.

One is modernizing much, much faster than the other, because they've got the political system, place, and I'm speaking here of Japan. The other one is politically, extremely backward, a fact that is a source of great despair for a whole lot of Russians, a whole lot of Russian writers, intellectuals, thinkers, including, of course, the makers of the Russian Revolution. And 1905 is a moment where, you know, they realized that, look, this system that we have with the Tsar in place, with this kind of, you know, despotic structure. We're not going to get anywhere. We know, we know. We need a revolution. So we have a revolution. There is a revolution in Russia in 1905. Unfortunately,

you know, it doesn't quite do the work. So there is obviously another revolution in 1970. In fact, there are two revolutions in 1917. You know, I'm the equivalent of the toddler, the annoying toddler at the back of the car that usually goes, are we there yet? Are we there? I'm just going to say, we're not there yet. We're not there yet. We're not there. So tell me the first time that Russia. Yeah, so Russia and Japan are, I, I, I'm not there. I'm doing this square dance, they're sort of peacocking at each other, but they actually do start rubbing each other up the wrong way because Russian railways are damaged in a boxer rebellion in 1890. Russia then invades and occupies Manchuria in 1900, 100,000 troops are sent to

defend its investments. And so it is, I suppose, inevitable that there is going to be a collision course, right, William? Yes, and you get a major Japanese landing in Korea. You're getting now boots on the ground. And it's in this area that you're going to get the Japanese and the Russians facing off against each other. And Japan is looking to weaken Russia. It has intelligence operations and psychological warfare against the Russians. They're funding nationalist revolutionary movements across Russia's European territories, places like Lithuania and Poland. I mean, it's extraordinary that a kingdom which has been so isolated for so long is now not only westernizing itself and modernising its army and its navy and buying the very latest equipment.

But it's also involved in long-distance intelligence work at the other end of the world. So, okay, so now it is inevitable. They're on a collision course. So as in the more familiar campaigns of World War II, the Japanese are relying on speed and initiative. And their plan is essentially the same as in the Sino-Japanese War. Japan launches a surprise attack on the Russian fleet anchored at Lushan, Port Arthur on the night of the 8th of February and the battle lasts for two days.

Japanese forces also land at Incheon and move north to cross into Manchuria and the Yellow River. Now, Russia's leadership is divided. The Tsar's uncle, Admiral Alexei, this commander-in-chief, and he is completely inexperienced in warfare. Just before we take this story further, can I just give you a tiny little absolutely delicious fact about Admiral Alexea, right? He's a great strategist. Not really. He's an inexperienced warrior to the point where he's scared of horses, William. So when he inspects the Russian cavalry, he insists on doing it on foot because he won't ride a horse to look at them. The ideal man to inspect your armies. So you can see the runes are not good for the Russian

endeavour. With the Russians in disarray, Japanese forces move northwards. And Russia has a whole series of losses. There are three Japanese armies converging on Lao Chang, Manchuria's second city on the 26th of August, and Russian forces are inflicted heavy losses by the Japanese. Their command breaks down. Their units fail to receive orders. They fall into confusion. And then you get this battle of Shenyang, which, some say, is the largest battle of its period. You have 250,000 Japanese troops and 375,000 Russians, respectively. And Russia's defeated. It has 70,000 casualties, 20,000 Russian prisoners of war are taken.

And then you get this extraordinary naval campaign when the Russians send their fleet, the Baltic fleet, all the way around to Port Arthur. Tell me about that, Anita. Yes, this doggar. bank incident. Is that way we are leading us up to you? I mean, it is such a fantastic, you've got, you know, Russian agents stationed along the route. They've issued reports of Japanese spies and torpedo boats everywhere. The fleets on high alert. Which of course are entirely mythical. Yeah, it's not true. And it's, you know, sort of proceeding into the North Sea. The captain of the

repair ship radioed that he was under torpedo attack. And then other officers are reporting sightings of mystery vessels. None of it's real. It's all in their heads. The order's given to open fire, but searchlights reveal damaged and sinking British fishing vessels, because that's who they've been shooting. They've been shooting, you know, sort of fisherman. So the whitby fisherman. So but you've got the Russian fleet then splitting one group going south to the Cape of Good Hope. All the way around. I mean, just nuts. Just think of the geography of this. And the other going through the Suez Canal and then everybody regrouping around French into China, where they have to keep sailing in and out of ports because, you know, they're only allowed to stay for a

little while. I mean, I find this as like a parking permit situation. International maritime law, they can only stay for 24 hours in a neutral port and then they have to hop it again. This is like trying to park outside your house to do a podcast of it. Well, I know, which you managed to get a parking ticket every single time, every time. So that is sort of the backdrop to this great decisive. And Punker is the thing that changes everything, which is the Battle of Toshima on the 27th to the 28th of May, Willey, talk us through the actual battle, because I mean, it has just been an absolutely cluster fudge until this point. What happens now? So you know how in modern warfare,

look at the Ukraine, for example, so much is dependent on the latest technology. To be one technological leap ahead of your rival in war is always the crucial thing. And in this naval battle, the Japanese have managed to get the latest range finders. And these are supplied by a Scottish firm from Glasgow called Barr and Stroud. I knew you'd leave her in the Scots. I just knew that was going to happen. Wait, what's a range finder? It's a telescope that you look through, which has a dial, which allows you to estimate

the range exactly through what's in focus. So you use the focusing dial to tell the exact range. It's a farawayometer is what you're describing. It's a farawayometer, as you said briefly put it. You should be in marketing and arm stealing, Elita. And this Glasgow firm called Barr and Stroud have been perfecting this range finder, which allows gunners on ships to look out to sea and to estimate exactly the distance of a ship that they're firing at. And therefore, to land a shell exactly on it.

and Barron Stroud had just managed to export to Japan something called the 1903 FAA3 Range Finder, which is bought by this extraordinary figure, Admiral Togo, who has rearmed the Japanese fleets and got them absolutely cutting-edge technology. And the Russian fleets are, you know, 30, 40 years behind this. And so what happens is that the Japanese can sink the Russian warships at a distance of 5,500 meters, and fire with incredible accuracy. And one Russian ship has the unbelievable distinction of becoming the first modern battleship

sunk by gunfire alone in the first minutes of this battle and in the minutes that follow 11 other Russian battleships go down. The speed of the devastation is extraordinary. But the most extraordinary thing about this story is, yet again, you found a Scott. I mean, how, wherever we are, whenever we are in the world, That's amazing. Less surprising than me bringing a Scott into the story is the fact that the Japanese had gone to Glasgow,

researched this thing, negotiated the purchase. This thing had only been invented in 1903 and in 1905, every ship in the Japanese Navy has one of these and is brought into action and the result is accurate fire, which sinks the entire Russian navy. Yeah, now, Banquage, back to you. I mean, what does this do to Russian morale? Of the Scottish interlude. Yes. What does this actually do to Russia, Russia's sense of itself and everybody else's attitude towards Russia?

Well, actually, like quite a lot of countries, the Russians too are forced into some very urgent and harsh self-examination. And out of which, you know, comes their own efforts at reforming the political system of modernizing the military, you know, a process that starts in immediately after 1905. you have actually some very capable Russian leaders at the time. Even before, you know, 1917, even before the great events of 1917, you have people trying to rapidly reform Russia. But, you know, this is a process that is happening simultaneously after 1905 across Asia and Africa, where Japan's victory has demonstrated that basically everyone needs to learn very far.

two, the secrets of European or Western power. And if that means going all the way to Glasgow to learn the secrets of naval technology, if that means going to Germany, as the Japanese did, to learn about how a constitutional monarchy can work or how an economic system not built upon free trade can work, well, you have to do all that. So I think the biggest lesson from the Battle of Tsushima is not only military, it's intellectual, it's political, and it's also, you know, to use a slightly abused word, spiritual. I mean, I think, you know, with people like Gandhi, obviously were not in any way inclined towards, you know, this kind of modernization or this kind of militarization. What was really important was that Japan had regained its self-respect.

after being humiliated. And that was really the crucial message from this victory. Well, look, it's a good place to take a break. Join us after the break when we find out just how this remolds, reconfigures all of these different countries sense of themselves. Welcome back. So obviously, this is a series on Russia and the Russian Empire and the Russo-Japanese War had a huge impact on that.

It played a central role in the reforms, that were going to come in 1905 and the creation of the Russian Duma. But in the second half of this episode, we're actually going to focus on the impact that this war had on Asia. And then next Thursday, we'll be releasing the first of three episodes on the Russian Revolution and the end of the Russian Empire. So we'll go into full detail then on the impact that the war had on Russia and how it played into the revolution. But Pankaj, before the break, you were describing a situation where, the global south, in other words, that the non-Western chunk of the globe, suddenly sit up

and realize that the West has Nikiti's heel, that this is a power that can be brought down. How does that affect the different regions? What happens? Well, I think, as I said, you know, the main moral that people draw from Japan's victory is that there is no reason for us to be dominated and bullied by people from, from, from, the West, and that if we organize our institutions, if we organize our political systems, our economic systems in quite the same way that Japan has done, there is no reason we cannot regain our sovereignty, our freedom, our autonomy. Japan has shown the way for all these different countries in different ways. Exactly. Now, how do you do it? You know, that's the sort of big question.

where do you start with something like this? Obviously, you know, so many countries are simply not in a position that Japan is in the early 20th century. They are, if not directly occupied by European imperialists. They are certainly completely dominated by them. If you're thinking of places like Java, large parts of Africa, large parts of the Middle East. So how do you start? And I think for most people, it's like, okay, let's look at, what Japan is doing. They've had a new constitution, they've had economic reforms, they've had political reforms. So let's learn from them. An emperor has become a constitutional monarch. Exactly. So instead of, you know, the emperor consolidating despotic authority, he is, you know, almost a kind of, you know, symbolic figure, someone who kind of helps guide parliamentarians and not sort of, you know, this imposing figure from the past. So everyone is thinking, how do we kind of modernize our political and economic systems? And how do we set on this path?

So one step is, let's have a new constitution. Sometimes, you know, that happens very rapidly. For instance, in Persia. 1906 is a national assembly. Exactly. You've already had, the Ottomans at this point, have had a constitution, which was, I think, sometime in the 1870s that was created. But it has been moribund for some time.

So now they revived that. And again, with the sort of emphasis on, you know, let's have other people involved in the political process, not just the sultan, not just some guy sitting in Istanbul. Now, Pankaj, you talk very, very interestingly in your book about a character. We actually dwelt on very briefly with Eugene Rogan when we were talking about the late Ottoman. period, who is Jamaldin al-Afghani. Tell us about him. Yes, you know, so here is another character who is sort of starting to travel around

the Muslim world from the mid-19th century onwards. Where does he start? He starts sort of, you know, soon after, I mean, I think his first kind of reported travels are in India soon after the mutiny. And this is a very crucial period, you know, as you probably know better than just about most people we know, that Muslim power in India has been decisively broken. The moguls have been swept aside in 1857 to 8. And he's there to observe their humiliation and to draw lessons from that whole debacle. So he's there immediately after 57 he goes to Afghanistan. It's not quite clear whether he's from Afghanistan or Iran.

Isn't that interesting that we don't even know where he's actually from? Exactly. Very, very crucial figure. I suppose we didn't really have kind of organized scholarship back then, so a lot of these details are very murky now. But anyway, we do know that he traveled through Egypt, he traveled through Ottoman Turkey, through Istanbul, he was in Iran, he was in Tehran, plotting against the Shah. He was in practically every major Muslim country with one central central country.

message that if you don't educate yourself, if you don't organize, you're going to be further humiliated by Western powers. And so, you know, Al-Ovqqqani really is in many ways the first original figure of what we now know as political Islam. Because he's not attached to one state or one ruler. He's moving across the entire Islamic world, wanting a revival, wanting to go back to the roots and a restrengthening and a rebirth. Exactly. And one of the advantages of having traveled through such a vast realm is that you can see that the problems of Muslim societies are not necessarily inherent in some sort of, you know,

local factors on some one particular society. The main source of the problem is foreign occupation, is imperialist plundering. And if you don't organize against that, no amount of tinkering here and there is going to do it. So I think he's the sort of first figure from that period to kind of focus on just exactly what Western imperialism is doing to these countries. And he actually gets into the Ottoman high command, doesn't he? He's living in the palace in – is it Dolmabache or the Yildiz Palace? He has a great talent for intrigue, for conspiracy. So he manages to insinuate himself into ruling classes wherever he goes.

It's not just Istanbul or Tehran, also in Cairo. He's sort of immediately after arriving there, he's talking to officials, he's talking to intellectuals, he's talking to writers, he's starting magazines. So a lot of what we know as Islamic modernism indirectly or directly is related to his travels and to his doings and to his saying. So again, I mean, you know, really obscure figure even today. But when you think about it, he's had a much more enduring influence than Karl Marx, you know, another great exile that we think of of the 19th century. I can think of other examples. But Al-Afghani remains really completely unknown compared to these other figures.

Yeah, I mean, you talked before the break about there actually being a sort of almost spiritual awakening. I can't really. You had a very elegant phrase for it. It wasn't just a notion of national pride, but there's something more than that. There's an innate, this is who we are and this is what it means. Does that appear evident in al-Afghani? And Rabindra Nat Tagore is another person that you mentioned in your book as being really inspired by the events. of 1905. Absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, I think, you know, the role of humiliation is very

underrated in geopolitics, international affairs, definitely in domestic politics, you know. I think it's a very good point, Pankaj. If you look at so much of recent history, whether it's happening now in Russia or the Germans in World War II or what's happening now in India, so much of it is related to past humiliations. And if you belong, as many of the people I talk about in this book do, if you belong to the highest caste or highest class in your own country and culture, then that humiliation is obviously sharper. It's felt more deeply, you know, which is the case with Al-Ovgani, which is the case with Rabin Nataigur, which is the case with Lian Chichau. Oh, tell us about Lian Chichaud because I guarantee that that's not a name that people will recognize.

Well, no at all in the West. Yeah. Who is he? Where's he born? Actually, thanks to this book, Penguin Classics have commissioned, the collection of his writings, it's coming out in a few weeks. So, you know, we'll know a little bit more about what he wrote, what he thought about, his travels through Europe, through America. I mean, who was he. He was a member of the China's sort of Mandarin class, very much, you know, brought up in a particular tradition of being a bureaucrat, of being, you know, part of the sort of gentry,

the Chinese gentry. But aware in the late 19th century that China was in a terrible. way it was being bullied around by Japan, which was nibbling away Chinese territory, and also the regime, the Qing dynasty, simply didn't have it in them to confront Japan or to modernize the country. So he's, you know, trying, again, he's traveling around the world, he's going to various places, he's hanging out with overseas Chinese, which eventually become a big source of support for him.

And he's also spending a lot of time in Japan to... somehow bring together a like-minded, you know, community of people devoted to rescuing China from its fallen state. And in this endeavor, you know, he's sort of, I think he dies sometime in 1940, in 1939 or 40. Again, this is a man who has massive impact. He sets of magazines, he sets up a publishing imprint. He meets Tagore. I mean, he meets everyone. Someone like Mao Zedong, grows up reading Liang Chichau, revering Liang Chichau, Xiaan Lai, any Chinese leader,

any Chinese intellectual, any Chinese writer you name, they all basically were inspired and influenced by Liang Chichau. Another, you know, we have not a clue about... What about Sanya Tsen, Pankash? Is he reading him? He's a more man of

action. Absolutely, yeah, yeah. Tell us who he is, first of all. Well, he's, you know, again, one of the sort of people deeply, obviously, affected by the European encroachments upon China. There's one particular part of China that sends a lot of people out of the country, as far as the United States, as far as the Caribbean, because the situation there is pretty intolerable. And he's one of those people overseas Chinese who kind of develop a Chinese national consciousness

while spending a lot of their life abroad. And again, you know, for them, if you remember how sort of racist the United States was with both Chinese and Japanese immigrants. So you are kind of not only suffering from the fact that your country is in a terrible way. His brother was in the California goal rush. Am I right? Exactly, exactly. And his Akuli is being bullied by. Yeah, with this very large Chinese contingent abroad. And Chinese nationalism really first flourishing.

within these overseas communities. And of course, they have more money. And so they are able to organize. And Liang Chichao, Sun Yat-Sin, they all become part of this network of Chinese nationalists abroad who are conspiring, were plotting, a kind of national renaissance.

And then finally, they have their moment, you know, very soon in 1911. 1911, the overthrow of the emperor. They overthrew the emperor. And Suniatzen comes into his own, you know, becomes a major figure. Yeah, in Chinese. politics. And of course, you know, in 1919, the Chinese Communist Party is formed. These are also

people, you know, a lot of people in the Chinese Communist Party are people who spend time in Japan, who went to Japan again to educate themselves in the ways of Japanese power. I mean, it's really interesting that you name, it's almost like a waterfall of unfamiliar sounds or these people, because, you know, here, when you think of India and you think of, you know, the 1900s, it's Gandhi, Nehru? I mean, they dominate. I mean, how affected were they by what happened between Japan and Russia? Actually, both of them. You know, Nehru

was traveling. He was on a train in England when he read about... On his way to Harrow, wasn't he? On his way, indeed, to his private school. And was absolutely delighted as he records in his autobiography. You know, Gandhi,

Tagore, these are, again, people who were not at all invested in the idea of, you know, war or military modernization, I think, but they all were deeply enthused by this. And, you know, a lot of Indians at the time who were not, again, you know, at sort of thinking much about resistance to the British Empire, how to go about, you have to remember, you know, the Indian National Congress, what became the major anti-colonial force in India,

was still in a pretty rudimentary state in 1905. And so the victory in many ways galvanized this all sort of national consciousness. And again, for Gandhi, the immediate lesson was, look, Japan has shown us that we can earn our self-respect. So, you know, kind of drawing a very simple lesson from it. And of course, you know, for Gandhi, self-respect and, you know, creating, creating a culture, creating an economy whereby you're self-reliant, self-sufficient. these were its lifelong goals. In effect, Kersen was absolutely right. Everything that he said was going to be a problem with this became a problem.

Absolutely. I mean, he really saw what was happening, which was a kind of moral and spiritual earthquake. And what is this? I mean, I think we've talked about the global south today and how power is shifting from the west to the east and Chinese nationalism, Indian nationalism, indeed Russian nationalism, these are going to be major players in the next few decades.

But I think if you think about how were these nationalisms formed, like who were the people even thinking about nationalist identity? How did they start? It all really started in the early 20th century. And it's, again, it's very hard for us to imagine how much ground is passed in such a short time. This is 1905. only 42 years later that the British round of India and the whole colonial period is beginning to be rolled up. And again, you have to remember the crucial player in the expulsion of

European imperialists from large parts of Asia is Japan. So Japan plays. I mean, I think, you know, again, you have to think more and more about the role Japan plays in world politics, especially in the first half of the 20th century, because there is that 1905 moment. And then, of course there is the Second World War when Japan, with the help of Asian collaborators everywhere in Java, in Burma, drive out the British and the Dutch and the French from their old possessions. This is such a crucial point, package. I was very struck when I went to Java last year that still today, when you go to the museums in Java, they talk about the Japanese liberation of Indonesia, of Java from the Dutch. And in the West,

we're so brought up with the certainties and the simplities of good and evil, Nazis, bad, British and Americans good, that we still look on the Japanese as part of the enemy, part of the Axis forces who we overthrew. But there are large parts of Asia which still see them as liberators, aren't there? Including India. Including India. Just talk us through, Punkage, in this day and age where all these major powers seem to be doing something of a square dance, the fact that the way that the way that,

doesn't recognize these catalysts for, you know, the thinking of the global South is an issue. But what about the way in which these countries now are exerting their identity, their muscularity, their nationalism? I mean, what is happening with that these days? Well, you know, I think, again, there are people already talking about just what shape the assertion of Asian nationalism would take. There are people extremely worried about this. There is Rabin Nata Gore, who becomes a great critic. of Japanese nationalism and then later Chinese nationalism. He goes to China and he's mocked by Chinese intellectuals

for coming from a slave country, as they call India. People like Tagore are trying to tell the Chinese that please don't follow Japan, don't be militaristic, don't be imperialistic. And he's mocked wherever he goes in China. This is a very interesting episode that is covered in this book. And back in India, too, he's warning against extreme nationalism of the kind that we see in India today. So there are voices, even back then, Liang Chichau is another.

You know, the most interesting commentary on the Russo-Japanese War in 1905 was provided by Tolstoy. Who we did an episode on this week? He covered the war, he wrote about it, and took from it the conclusion that, you know, this business of imitating the West and imitating its means to firepower, greater firepower, this is going to end really badly. So when you ask me that question about,

so these countries now preening themselves and flexing their military muscle, where is it all going? Well, I think, unfortunately, history tells us that we need to be extremely anxious about where we are going with this kind of scenario where, again, what Japan did in the past, So many Asian countries feel that they can only be respected, they can only achieve dignity and self-respect if they are feared.

And, you know, this is what the Chinese are doing. This is what, to a certain extent, the Indians are doing. And again, this is an extremely worrying scenario. Bunkage, Mishra, that is a very powerful, if incredibly depressing, place to end. We thank you very much for being with this. That is that is it from Empire for this episode. But we'll be back. Till then, it's goodbye from me, Anita Arnan.

Goodbye from me, William Duremberg.