Endgame with Gita Wirjawan - Aldi Haryopratomo: Indonesia Mapan & Mendunia Lewat Kolektivisme

Episode Date: May 19, 2021

Pendiri Mapan, Aldi Haryopratomo, bercerita tentang mimpinya menciptakan  nilai tambah bagi orang banyak dan mendorong ekosistem kewirausahaan  dan budaya kolektivisme sebagai fondasi yang dapat membawa Indonesia  menjadi kekuatan ekonomi global. Dari keluarga Mapan untuk Indonesia.

If we can be a good a new country but we're here, but we're having the identity of our own our country, we're here, that's from the world, it's not to be from our culture we can't be from outside. This is end game. You're in time.

We're coming Aldi Harriopratomo, founder of Mappan. Aldi, thanks. You can't come to our acara our Thank you, You're a very successful entrepreneur. But many who are not know that successan is a core of many of the big of the gagalance.

I want to hear of your story, from the from where, school, and where, and then, where, after school, and then, we'll go about about the next to the next

about in 2004, so. Okay, so. So, so I'm so, I'm very in in the complex Bina Marga,

so complex that complex of the government which is around land and sahuasahua. Taun? I was born in 1980. Okay. Now, Bapac my guy,

the employee, he worked in Department of Perjian Umum. And from, from the little, you know, I was, he was born,

So I'm going to the deserts, literally, I'm like jeep, yeah. So I'm still like off-road. Okay. Or skateboard, you guys. Okay, skateboard, yeah. Yeah, I'm just like, I just like, you know, to come on the back on the you're going to come on. And then, yeah.

And then, yeah, when I was like, when I was like, why do you, like, what's like, people are like playing ball or what, I'm, I'd like to be able to getterer, to get in the same to go to the survey, but I'm going to go through the way, but I'm going to say, whatever that's been able to be able to be able to

give access to the person that's most because, because, that person will be sure, and what's the name is, the rejeky, and then, he did that with Rhodes, and so I like to think that

so I'm going to live that I always to the people who need to get up. So, where? In the Jakarta? In Jakarta, in the SMPA's Pangolidulhur. Okay. One of alma mater. I'm a dropout.

It's okay. I also gottick a Sema to the Sema 8. Why? Not to PL again? Well, one, more more. which is a lot of the other things. I wanted to experience different things. So, from the kids'O.L.

S.M.P.L., S.M.A.L., so I want to have a diverse group of friends. And, as a cacallel, that's three-ganty-a-kot. If 8, it's just a 1. And no, there's a co-ceweigh-a-L. And no, no, there's a ceweaneta with Hanur. So, it makes up for it.

So I did that. And my mom, that's a docent, architect. architect, I learned from my mom, don't chase money, because the money, because of the money can't even when I'm going to get from her. Wow. I read about three or four books a month. Okay.

So, universities in other-negrary? University in Purdue, yeah. So at that, at all of course, at once I'm always an out-one-out-out-out-out, SM-A-N, to M-P-T-N, E. It's like U.I. Everybody assumed that, so, people are still thinking I'm like

I'm not going to be because there's an Ateb, but I always wanted to do something different. So I look for a scholarship to go to the US. Dama'u was really, I didn't know actually which schools were good. So I just went to, there's name Aminev,

it's the institution for education. And I just took the top 10 engineering schools for my major, which is computer engineering and just applied. That's how much I didn't know. Like, I know now I would have to other schools schools that may be easier to get in. It's a good, but it's good, but too, but too, but it's good.

I think I got a really good experience of really learning what it feels like to be an outsider. Okay. And what the independence that you get by going to school alone, and in a place where you can't necessarily afford it. I felt I was always struggling. Honestly, college was very difficult for me. I had to work, I think, 20 hours a week at least. Worker part-time?

Okay. 20 hours a week. Yeah, not jave-jave-jave-l, like with my experience. Yeah. And then I had to take a break in between semester. So I would go to school for a semester, and I would work for a semester. So I would work for first job actually, I was working for a commons, which is an engine company.

And I was driving a semi-tachn-18-wheeler. No kidding. Yeah, yeah. That's, kind, same is a license. Bidda. My job was a programmerer, I was a computer engineer. And they wanted somebody to do a simulation of the program of the truck going. So they told me how to drive a truck.

Wow. So I understood really the grassroots culture of America. Like I went to Katlynburg, Tennessee to dollywood, like, to dollywood, like that. So it was... It's very much, it's really, and you learned to respect different cultures, right? different cultures, right? And you learn to struggle.

Abuse, I was a company at a striker medical company they made a medical device company they make surgery tools and everything. I was working in the factory, helping them build Bluetooth devices for six months as an intern. So, did really, a lot of assortment of jobs,

just to get by, like. Then, lulus, then, then, Or did you or like that? I was like to do. Okay. ...to... ...the American?

Yeah, America. Yeah, okay. So, after lulose, I considered what I wanted to do. And I really wanted to be in San Francisco. So, really, really, I really... I don't blame you. Huh? I don't blame you.

Yeah. I mean, it's, it's kind of... ...and I felt, okay, that I want... I want, I want, I want... ...and, I really, what, yeah... ...enable me to see, like, different things. I like to explore. I'm going to to look adventure, and I'm interestingly, like I never thought that Ernst

Nyang would be a firm that would be adventurous. But they have one division, the name's security and technology solutions. So it was a white hacking. So our job was to hack or penetrate security security from the biggest banks and the biggest companies in that in the region. And it was really fun. I learned a lot in in that job. But I think after about about about about about about about about the biggest, the biggest, most pivotal moment in my life when I had moved from Ernst & Young to a really, really small startup, which is called Kiva.

Okay, I heard about this. Tell us, how about. So, So, at that, at Ernst & Young, I've already gottle. I've gottle, I've been going to make something something that's different. So, so it's a different from the competition.

And our project, it was a group SMS software. Gottenroiang it, it makes people closer. You see a theme here, that's a sense of community is always that. My first idea was that, we're going to start up was that,

we're going to start off in Stanford Businessman Competition. And across the table, there's a person, there's a person, And when I got pitch is better than ours, that's, so they're picture of our,

who's like to buy a pamping. Orang this is but to $200. How can he can raise $200? Diffasang photoshop, put it's put on the story and be perbolehackan people from America to give them pinjama, not donations,

not each one of dollars, 20 people, call it's $10,000, wow. When I saw that, that's really, really game-changing so, so, so, capital flowing

from a country to a country that needs to be what my dad would have wanted me to do, right? So, I'm,

I'm, I'm, and then, wow, well, if you can't beat them, join them, right? So, I went to the can't the, can't,

the roomaner, maybe not, even in a really rinketink area in mission, really ghetto, gotto, and I talked, and I told them, hey, I'm going to join. Like, how do I help? And at the time, Ernst & Yang had a program

if, if we're just for non-profit, you can do like two days in non-profit or three three days in non-profit, and two days in Earns & Young, as part of their pro bono program, right? So, I did it. And... Wow.

I was so lucky because the founder is the founder is the product manager, the PEPL, Pemal Shah. I just talked to him actually like a month ago. We recorded a session about all these early founders. He's a big dude now. So are you. He's super, yeah, he's super famous.

And we had somebody from Google who was employed like with number 100 or something, very early. So the place was just filled with talent. And because of PayPal Mafia, I got to meet a lot of other people who were in the PayPal Mafia. There are, there were a lot of time. At least, when I was in front of four. Wow. So, there's four people, I'm one other.

One other, named Ben Elberger. Ben Elberger, who's from me from me from me, like, like, I'm still more than the other's already independently wealthy. We were like the struggling idealist. And you know what? Ben ended up becoming my partner in every business that I started. No kidding. Yeah.

Until today. Him and I have been working together for 16 years. With a gap when I was in school. But yeah. So that decision to leave my comfortable job. Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah.

Named, yeah. I'm going to tell you, like, gajuny-notes, okay. I had a nice apartment, expense account, everything. And my parents were like, why are you're why why why why why why profit but man it was worth it the people that

the first batch the first 10 people in kiva ended up building some of the world's best fintech companies actually because we're probably the first in pirtipel landing in the universe we're communicating we're communicating like this is how it works it was so cutting edge right it was so different And it's what you could feel the pepals. And people pepals just like,

like this like pepal just like that's the growth of Kiva. And then yeah, I did that. I was in San Francisco for a while. My role was to help, when you have that smaller team, we do, we can do everything, right? But then the turning point after that, after that,

to me, to make up to Asia-Tengara. Mom and Dad? Or? No, actually, nothing. It was actually a movie. So, what? Motorcycle Diaries, Che Guevara. Okay.

So, so the story is it in Kiva, it's interesting. We have a problem that's interesting, because there, is it's all, like, I'm, like, We're like that's always focused on the people who need need to put up to TV we've got to bea BS with Oprah Oprah Winfrey with Andrea Agassi that's who's silo. Now that, we're, we're kind of beckon-buckin-magnet, but in Asia-Tengara, in Africa, no-a-known, conno-can.

On the website we've said, I'm going to say, I'm going to give you want, we're too much, Many of the people who's going to give money. Like, as a lot, like, oh my God, that's really. Why? And then I read a book, book of Professor Yunus, about banker for the poor, and, that's the film,

the film, which is the most, motorcycle diaries. That's Cagua Farah, around America's Latin, with motor, to learn, understand the community. So, like, literally the next day, I, I, to the boss, see Pramol, Boss,

I'm going to look at the Kiva. But we're going to bea not going to be it's okay. Whatever you can afford, later I'll live in a tenta with a motor, just like, I'll find some other money, like, okay, sure. How long do you want to do it?

Six months? Okay, okay, and I had to find other sources of money, right? And because it just like, I think it was like, maybe like, budget, not yet up to $1,000 from Kiva. Okay, how do I find more money? Indonesia's suba, right? 2004. I read an article in the Walsh's journal.

There was a McKinsey partner. And in his name was, I literally called every combination of his email to be able to his contact. And like, talk to everybody, and finally he replied to one of them. You'll see a theme. I do this a lot, actually. Just randomly email people 40 times until there is one. And yeah, and he also,

If you can't get a.C. You can't get akeh, to help Kiva in Aceh, and in the area that's it. So yeah, I left my cushy consulting job in San Francisco to go around Southeast Asia, on a motor, knocking door to door from Vietnam, Cambodia, Indonesia.

Selama six-month? No, actually, 18-bunuch. Wow. But, yeah, but, yeah, But in Ache, back again to Vietnam, to Ace. I didn't do it continuously like ECE, I was viral, but it's, then after a month in the land, it's a back on, but...

Sondyrieve? ...withsendary, or with companions, or...? ...Sendary. ...withity in the country, there's a telegram, like, Kiva, many life, when we were in a village, in Vietnam, yeah, and I would ask,

at this from where, I'd get a pinjama from the institution. I'd say, I bought laptop, I give them the laptop. If you put your picture here, you can actually get money from the US. They can't know the internet, they would pick up the laptop and shake it. Where's the money? I had to explain everything.

Actually, this is what I learned about the power of women. Until today, I'm really advocate for female entrepreneurship. Because I'm really in microfinance bank in Vietnam, in Indonesia, where it's all women. And they're very strong and they're actually are the motorists. they are the motor for the community. And yeah, and I did that for a while. And that's my crash course in business and fintech.

So, you have to beaunding, the foundation is there. Because, maybe, there's more than, it is 1,000 microfinance bank that I'm doing diligence. And as a computer engineer who can't get finance, you have to know it, right, how to read the balance sheet, how to manage a loan. And that's why, if you ask me,

am I a payment guy or lending guy? more of a lending guy, because a different mindset. That's a different mindset. Because I learned it the hard way, like Kiva, if the money not in the pinjemean and then did pay, Kiva, reputational, right? So it's my job to do it. It was really fun. Seeing these microfinance banks go online, and seeing the website,

and then, malmallem we upload the file, gnazarin the file, I made a little code how to help them compress files. It was really, really, yeah. And it was the real, I don't know, millions of people that we helped get access to funding with my little motorcycle adventure. Wow. So that was a really interesting part of my life. It was like my first kind of...

You were before Ambleas II, before BCG also. What turned you back to school? Oh, well, actually first of all, I needed to get married. So Kiva needed, was not necessarily the, what, yeah, not the most for the most of myrtua, right? Because, because she was like this, you know. The in Indonesia, or what? In Singapore.

She was in Singapore, Jaby Morgan in Singapore. I used to be there, you know? Yeah, I used to run it, right? And so she used to, like, you know, be in the trading floor in Singapore. Basically, she was, career-wise, he had got to talk to Hong Kong, to transport, moving up in the world, right? And here is me, this little hippie guy,

with laptop with motorway, with the work if they had a foresight when she saw you. How do you explain to your in-laws? What do you do? I'm, cliling, sir, cliling. It's easy. Just tell them positive present value. So, yeah, and then, so I had to get a real job. And so I applied to BCG.

B. B. B. B.C.G. next billion users and it was focused on the last in billion. And I got it. Actually, I got in as a post-MBA consultant. Oh, because I have a penalom of my project was really focused on helping big companies access the base of the pyramid.

And yeah, so then I was in the BCG, maybe one, I haven't really actually had a... Pasta S2? No, past Kiva. So, right, Right. Right to get married. I have got bills to pay, got an in-laws to impress.

My in-laws were from IBM, so they're used to this, like, thing. My parents, actually, I'm happy. The child, they've had a job that's a good one, just one of the BSIG, already making company, make mappar. You know, I almost worked at B.

You did? Yeah, they made enough. But I, I don't know what that, It's a good banking just a good company. It's a lot of the people. I learned a lot of the B.C.G. Then, to S2, Kameri, after B.C.g. After B.C.G.

No, actually, I started my company first. You're a serial entrepreneur, man. Yeah, I am. So I started my company first. So, at B.G I did it on the side. So, I did it on the side. I'm actually my company. Professor Yunus actually helped.

So, when I was in BCG, I'm going to look at that in Indonesia, that I was studying this thing called community. And I always felt that community is under leverage. Because, actually, in each desa, not just in Indonesia, when I was in Pakistan, I saw, wow, the center of community is so strong. In Pakistan, it's used for money transfer, for Hawala, the name of it.

So, because there's community leader who we're percaya, He made up the central bank for each of the desa. I was studying the center of community, I thought the best leader, the best thought leader for community is Muhammad Hata. He said that Sanubari Indonesia is full with a with a rasa, that'sa of the same thing that can't

be seen in the community with the other dyesa, with the work abakti, arisen, gottong, rotong. powerful, and it's very human. And, that's the economy we're on the world, which is actually from him. So I thought then, if Indonesia wants to make a business

that can be a scale international, and if we want to be in Indonesia but still Indonesia, we have focused to build a organization that can use I'm not only making that's a lot of for something that's more than what's

an idea of community to create positive economic value. So that when our country becomes wealthy, we don't forget our roots, we don't become an individualist country. And so that's where I founded Mappan. And the thesis was actually interesting. I was a translator for Professor Yunus. He was at that to here, he had training microfinance. I was a volunteer.

I remember. Yeah, I remember. In 2008. He's here at the point. I'm not quite, I've got to be in the English, well, like, so. So, I'm going to be able to be

so, so I'm going to be three days, and the last day he'd come. I'm going to say, Professor, Markofinance is good, but I've been around, I've been seen

almost 1,000 microfinance banks, and it's not enough. You need more than just giving a loan. You need to give them access to goods, in Bangladesh, in Bangladesh, in Bangladesh, they have built all of that. In Bangladesh, they have put up a brand here. I said, why don't you open a brand here? And instead, he actually said, well, why don't you open your own company and do it here?

I'll help you find the money. Oh, kaget, can. I'm from NGO back. Kiva, is an NGO background. So I was like, at the time for me was evil. Right? At the time, right, I was like, yeah. And then my first angel investment came from Grameen.

Wow. I met a person. There was somebody from the U.S. name, Sean, who was my co-founder from Mappan. He was building a project to help women share a phone. To help share a phone and sell top-up to each other. Because at the time, top-up was still physical. And so he wanted to help women give credit to each other in the form of top-up, which is easy. And they did this in Bangladesh.

And he said, yeah, let's do it together. So that's how Mappan was founded. It was, again, again, a random encounter with a person, and explaining what I believe in. So, yeah, that's how you started. But then, then, at some point, can't get enough enough of the money. And I'm not from a family

who can't invest. In Indonesia, unless you come from a family, you don't know, right? So I... I... I... ...n't... ...no, I'm...

...no... to Harvard or to Stanford. So I applied, I got in. And then I got a call and I said, oh yeah, oh yeah, how much does it cost? I forgot. I didn't, I didn't think about it. And I was like, oh, when they told me the amount, I was like, oh, gaggagal, though, not I was already past the level. But then, I did you want to go to school? You already passed the level for school. Okay, shit. And thankfully, I told Harvard I got a scholarship at another school, and Harvard said, okay, fine, fine, we'll match you. So, I got a scholarship from Harvard to go to go to Harvard to go to

to school, so I went to and I'm going to use going to go to school to go to school, so I went to school and I did that, I did exactly that. I won the Harvard Social Enterprise competition that year. Wow. And I met Pierre Omidyar's investment manager. Peer Omidyar, that's founder of eBay. him and another person from Patamara who invests in the microfinance bank in India they became my first investors along with Paddy Rahmat and Patrick.

Because they're going to come from conference. Again, I bug the person, please invest in my company. I'm just very persistent. Wow. Locked out. Yeah. I have so many lucky moments in life. I don't know.

It's just... Because I'm just... because of some things that people maybe not, yeah, maybe there's not, like, who's not there maluling it's just. Yeah. And then, fast forward. Yeah. Mappan, can, we're great enough.

Al-hmm, yeah, well. Yeah. Yeah. What's the moment, there, the story, there, the, yeah, who, who's kind of the okay, okay, okay, okay, just. Oh, ad-d-do. When I'm from the first, yeah, what, yeah, We want to build software

first, get ridgut the first, the most of the worst. Awal, if we recruit people, for tech startup, in 2009, 2010, is nearly impossible, because everyone wants to work in the companies termed. And then the second, and then,

you're doing the country, too, wow, It's expensive, because it's expensive. even though we had to rinkid-dust, the top of jobol, and the server's in the banjured in the air. And we had to redo everything. Wow, it was such a struggle. And when they were, who are you?

I felt like, at least Kiva is an American, text out of America, there's more credibility. I don't know, that perception is too better, but if people's an Indonesian, oh, this is this a scam or whatnot, right? It was very hard in the beginning. and convincing people to join, convincing to make upbun to gawing, not gampang.

And even for a few years, it's still too, because it's still still very slow. Even when we're going to, sometimes, we're ahead of our time, from the sisi-regulasi, so our product that, maybe, that's made, that's been made, and, actually, it was in that moment when Mappan really had an inflection point.

when we're going to getta-jutor, so we've got to get good, you've got to do high-nest-services, and then we had to shut down that business for regulatory reasons, how long? Forever. We just couldn't do it.

Okay, wow. And so we had to find a new model. Okay. This is when... Another person changed my life, the name is Teh Ayat. Who that? Ketu-Taharanan-Pretama.

So, I was... Right, right in the community, for the different things of digital, right? And financial service, we're going to be a regulatory reason, and we're going to Cilegon, in the desa' in the area, atop up the buchet, he, had to have a warring

that in the front of schoolhan. And, usually, the parents, nitip the other to because, sore-sook, because, he's clear that if he's been by the community. Now, and then, it's really,

he's, like, so I'm going to be so, what I'm going to, and then, but then, and then,

then, and you're, sad, is, people, people, people, who, people,

that's allude, that's, there, must be nular, , there, What? I said, hey, I was, I was therein'i digital. Why do you know how much?

Oh, this, man. In here, it's been there, when we're going to make make up to eat, that the masack the other thanthian. Ah, how much? Because pancy is mahal. Pancy is that in Jakarta, the price of $250,000, in there, it can be able to $600,000 because you're chill.

Wow. So he's the payer $100,000 for six-month. So six-bunas, it's about about half-bucked-a-half-bagnan. Because risked also for the gasekhanes-a-lis-a-basket. Maybe if Ms. Ali, it's got to the price moreh, dot-tok, talk. And the fabric-n't,

it's, at least $150,000. I mean, there's $100,000, must be margin, like. Okay, we shall, we'll tell, let's-lap, if the hargaguen't? If it's $250,000, can't? I'm not so much more so much more so 600,000 is the sameahed, too, Teh, you know?

Oh, no, not? Not to have to cicil, my business just shut down, how can't you guys just down, how can't you guys in a business in the damang-ayam, it's there areisan, there's an arisen, boulanan, and then,

maybe to be can't just be it'sanin barangue. So, at this point, my investors were super concerned, right? right? Like, like, my business just, I just raised some money, right? And they're like, what's already going to do? This? This is what? This is 2013. Okay.

Okay. And then my investors flew in from America. Just to see, like, is this Aldi going to actually make it? So, I'm going to be able to actually make it, so. So, I'm going to be a bay desa desa in the desert tamangayam, in the pinkir-pankai. Not, not. Not, no, not. Not bad.

Cuts. Just, it's. I'ma Panci, I brought a rascuquer, about a small place, where they're cumpur, they're cominggian. It's every day rabo,

jambu, from gung, to come to come to. And then, I came to come acci. Pagy, what about? Today, I want to buy pancy, teflon. I'm not even,

cosso, kosok, here, there, red, redang, s, mules, mousse, you. Who, who,

people, who, who's up the water panes, oh, who's got to make up the gas the up there's going to run up, and allangies, and then if you're going to keep a coal-litric, no, no, but we're going to be able to make up to make a gas more so, I was the salesman, like the... And this is all on video, by the way, because my investors were there, right?

And, and, and, and, at the end, at the end of the meeting, the day of the first one, the a bums of the bribu-ebus-u-striced, That's $250, they're patung at one, and they're each, masing $50,000. Then there's, like, like, it's still, still kept making sopherner.

Put the name in glass, and they're taking, one of the last, the one, one, that, brought the pancy. So we changed the game. Instead of having to take credit, or to buy it by the cash, they're collective. Wow.

Gotung, royong, $50,000 per-bun, then, then, gantyanty can't get the pancy it. And because they have a lot of the same They're the other than they're not there's what I think is so amazing. The genuine happiness that I saw that day, wow, there's something here. Talk about that culture. So, I think I've been to a lot of villages in Indonesia, in the other than where. And in this, the, the, the, the, is the more than your next of kin.

So, there'sa in the Kaka, there'shawarison, there's a Ketha, or there's a mannedu, or a Ustatt. That's, they're really, people who are really

more than some government or commercial reasons. So, they're genuine, and even, and even, even, if there's many, we're so close,

we're so close. So now in RTAQU, in Bari to, every month. These kinds of things are foreign for people in the other country. And I'm also, if Indonesia is to still Indonesia, and to still be toleranty,

because tolerance also from from because we have a and there's a lot and the power of the power of there, because the responsibility is important. If we, if we can be a way in a big of a lot of our own.

It's about our identity of our own. Because collectivism is foundation from why Indonesia that's all of the 1,000 of these with a lot of different with different, with different, with different, because we believe in this unity

that same is the same is the of the collectiveism. And I felt that if I were to start a company, right, the first company that can make the foundation of Indonesia to come-maju is a company that's a company that's a different collective.

And Arisan is manifestation of the of a community there's in the there's a country there, in the country in China, there's

there, and in here, there's not there. It's long, the amount of, Because you trust them, you want to help them. And I feel like we're...

Sometimes, we're... Sometimes we're trying to make it up. We're going to bring it here. But... ...coran originality. Yeah. This, we've got a buddhae-buday that's like Arisae-taddy, like we built a startup based on

a... ...aswatra will change the way people think about it. If you think about it, right, the country... ...the people are the company that's been the always has all about the world. Hollywood, America is all about showing off, right? And so Hollywood, of course, it's going to be in the US.

Toyota, the Japanese, it's very efficient. Wow, that's manufacturing yeah Toyota. Just in time, Kaisen, like, it's like, from there. Germany is all about craftsmanship, right? So, many of the companies like Bosch, who's, wow, if B.M.B.M.A. is very, from Germany,

if you can have a company that's a world, must be from our culture we can't from outside. And that's why I felt it's from from collectivism. How can it can be able to be for the importance of our to make up to increase inoclution? More than what we've seen

over here, that's really, so this is interesting. So this is actually why I ended up joining Gopé. Because collectivism, can, I'ma, much to focus to men, to be the way to help them, so long as there's no matter the ground to go to the world has to flow right?

And so one of the things that, so Nadim and I, can school together. Nadim actually was an intern in Mappan. Well, you probably forgot. The both of you came to my office long time ago. Oh, that's right, yeah, it was a long time ago, yeah, remember. When I was about that short. Nadim was an intern at the time.

You're right. Yeah. And... So, he had ambition in the car... ...and ...and driver OJek, that's more like, I was in the village and Ibu-ibu-ibu,

so I thought if you connect the two, you make the family earn more. And then what was missing was infrastructure our, to connect the pay-and-it-as-allat-allat-E-C-tossed that's allat-a-cally, cost you. In order, to make-each-concac-inclusion

barrier of the has to beaubahed infrastructure the other and so, when we're given to come in a lot of it was ambitious, buy three companies, so ambitious,

buy three companies in merger, and then it's just 20 people, and transaction, maybe not even to get 1,000, so, like, but I didn't, because, with Gopin'i this,

so MAPAN, it's been a foundation for culture in mass. But for this can't move, we have infrastructure that can connect them to the other. So, GoPAY, to be in fact, fintech, at the end up in the way, that we had to build,

so that all this wealth from this e-commerce, from ride-hilling, this can trickle down. Like, driver, misal the room with, every day, balance is did did not.

And so much more than they can't buyer arisans and get paid with using gopé. And that's all we're doing with we're using machine EDC to QR. Wow.

And that's why we were the first in Indonesia to launching QR. At that, comitator we still still use EDC, so I'm like, you know what, I'd rather be a little bit late, but we do it right. And, first,

For six months, oh, why are you not launching, this, we're going to be behind. Everybody was like, oh, all the malls, we're still commotitor, we said, don't worry. In the month, we're from 1,000 to a $1,000 transactions a day. Because we had the right product. And now, that Gopé,

can, it's pretty, in many, that, al-hmu-a-oh-oh-oh. I feel, when I was in June 21st, to a town in Chioma, and she's nother way she's she's just so different from like three years ago when I first started, he had to buyer with gope, in the room there's sticker gope,

he already can top up, and I felt that not only was she able to preserve the culture of this Gotong Royong, because he had had people who helped, but he also, can be a bridge to the real economy. And for me, it was priceless, that these two companies working in tandem can actually, hopefully, change a nation.

Budaia savings is how much? Is it, is more than the per day of technology? It's very. Because, it's just like this, because, gopia, in the way, we're being, we're going to be, Kaki Lema. Why don't think about we pay for the other money that's going to go pay,

it's it's been to beiturned as a bank as well. So they're not out of it. We're putting in, we're getting out of the way we're going to be out of the we're making to give them because they're thinking they're going to make out of the money for a perputarant. But not get out of out, a month, not out of out, oh, bu.

This is a tucangoddegade in Tugueningan. Why not it's not for tabungan, if I'm not think my son, I'm going to pay for my own. So I think MAPAN, what made MAPAN also add to this, is because MAPAN is the Ketua Community, the Ketua community's actually helping their neighbors to nabung. So, if you know, if you're having a day, can't be like that's because of

if you can't have ari-an, don't credit, can get two pancy not just one. This literati, education, this is important, and a lot of companies underestimated. They're like discount or what made MAPA different because these moms are from the community,

so they're literally serving their customers. Like, you don't need to train them on customer service, like, you don't need to train them on customer service, This is how to the this is how to the future? For Indonesia, five years to the next. Five years? Yeah.

Wow. Five-tawns. Inclusion of the money, now, can, kind of, 50-a-one percent? Yeah. Is it?

With, with technology like this. And education, literacy, and so other. Yeah. If we're like that's now, in the first digitalization. This is just 1.0. So, what's the bigun is industry e-commerce,

industry rat-hilling, it's basically a market place of exchange. Now, there's a layer of the other, with the other, with the bank jago, bank, like, you start creating these financial products that, that's later, that will be tailored for each,

segment. When we've got to work infrastructure, we'll focus on the infrastructure, then the layer on top will start to arrive. Products, lending products. There's now, there's pay later, there's chichelan, there's many some commissary of the other,

they make, to help people, if there's musibah. So you start having this financial products, right? Now, if the product that's out and more targeted to the right segment, then you can start seeing adoption increase. So that's the cost to serve, and regulation should not even though

because, because the way is B.I. and OJK have already made roadmap, right, where we're going, right? And I feel like having that roadmap and industry will work together. I think Fintech is kind of taken care of. So, so, right now I'm like focused on, okay, what other industries that we can build

to complete this puzzle for Indonesia, So that is an example of a company that I'm advising I'm on the board of, that's also accessible healthcare. Nothing motivates a mom to change their behavior more than their children. It's not. It's a child or their child's not. But if they've got changed behavior for not even but they're not just to access, then percuma.

So by companies like Halodoc to be able to be with using the main access to the way that's access to and make-education people on how to use the telemedicine that's used, it will change the way healthcare is provided. E-fishery, I'm also, I'm also,

I'm also, I'm from the sameusarer's in the same. That's where, the place? E-Fishery? In-Ferickery in, Bandung. But right, right, right, right, right, right. So, yeah, that we're mbb,

to petanikin, we can basically, donation, gototong, or like a certain asuransi for people who are going to be able to and I think what we want is an ecosystem of these kinds of companies that, which, collectively,

to bring Indonesia to a level that more mappan. So, we can be able to look in the country that's got to be that mindset has to change. Look, I mean, you've done so much and so well. What is it that you could have done differently with the benefit of hindsight?

Hmm. And this is supposed to inspire future generations who want to be like you. What have I done differently? Yeah. Hmm. To me honestly, it's a hard question, because I always look at failed to be like you. look at failures as a building block for me to get to where I am. That's necessary.

Yeah, can't. Yeah, no. Maybe like, let's talk about a company that I failed. And what I think I would have done differently had I, you know, had I, with the benefit of hindsight. So, I'm going to surfing a trip to Costa Rica as a friend's wedding. as a friend's wedding. And beautiful country, but it's up to that, when it's from there,

like, it's about about 18-jamb, like Indonesia, like, but then, it's very green. And I learned that, that's about, almost 70% of the electric in production with

renewables, in this, hydro. Because they have, same like Indonesia, with a lot of the bigot, and in the bigotan. I'm thinking, why in Indonesia,

there's a hydro company. So, while in business school, my first year, I'm pitching Mappan, men. On the other business plan that hydro this and

thesis is simple. The thesis is if if every sunnays in Indonesia that will make the bit air more than things

that's put you can't make as much energy. And now we have 75 gigawatts of potential power. And we're not, how many degrees? And we don't have a... And it's continuous, right? You don't have the storage issue of like solar or wind.

That's probably where we are today, cumulatively. Exactly. Exactly. But you don't have to build these big dams or these big things. You can actually build, because Indonesia has fast rivers. They're short.

So I decided to raise some money. I brought my friend from the US. my friend from Kiva, from my name's from from here. He came to work on this hydro company. So I have Ben on this Mappan thing, and I have Darren on this, like, ... we say we're employ bule, right? And my brother, I can't do it. I can't do both of my brother.

I can't do boss, so I, my, my dek my dad I was to go to to bring up to the hydro. So then, my dad, my dad, we were able to, we were raising like $30 million. And we've got almost all of it. And we've even had even built up, even when we've built this thing. I think my dad mortgages house to build this thing. It worked, don't worry.

Like that one actually worked out. So we still still, and our money, but we want a business plan competition in Thailand. The problem was that the regulation that set the power price price, it never got settled.

And so, as a business, you have a 20, 30 year horizon, if you lock in the wrong price, you're dead. Yeah. Yeah. And there's no way to change it, because you lock it. And I think I underestimated the regulatory risk of that business, right? And I don't think I was, I mean, had the enough foresight at the time to

to look at the government really on board, and having them also see the vision of where you see the world, that's really important. And, that's when we're going to gophe, when MAPAN, we're going to MAPAN, we're very, be able to beinication,

both B.I. MAPAN, finally, we've got licensicant to get to be lending. And, Because, because of the policy, because of the policy work, with one stroke of a pen, you can change millions of lives.

And I think sometimes we're in swastah, we say, well, it's better, that's not really. We need to embrace them and be rankle so we're to make in Indonesia for Napaan this same-same, not just, not-sinduced, so that's the thing that I wish I had been more mature and know more about. Maybe I'll try it later. But to be fair to the government, if the government would have had a bigger fiscal space,

maybe a regulatory framework can be more than. That's fair. Because the problem is also a lot of cost to the government also. And it has to be synergistic, if in Costa Rica, why hydro it can't be able to do because they're really is not going to push ecotourism. So the green aspect of the entire ecosystem is important. I think I'm glad, so now Nadim,

my partner, my partner, now, now we're starting to see a lot of innovators that, who are making Indonesia be a bit of course in the time, 50, or whatever, can be a problem that's a pretty much drastic.

And, and, if it's not in the context of digitalization, or if that's right-sharing, pintech and allan, the need of the cost of it, that's not much. Right, not much. Because the predacatting about, how to make valuations.

Right, and infrastructure, more focused. Where, if in hydro, the number gigawatt is finite. Valuasi is, based on that. Not there's perkeemmangue. Not that.

And if they're salangasing hard, it's a fine balance. I understand. But yeah, look, the company's not yet we had to give back the money, Darren already in America again. So you're saying that if you had the foresight of the stickiness of the regulatory framework,

you probably would not have started that hydro business. Or I would have had a backup plan. I see. Because, now climate change is very hot, right? Real. I could be able. The additional, it's got from, say, big companies, like, big tech companies, Google.

I'm like, I have this idea, government, can you pay the rest, like, I didn't do that, right? At the time, because I was just, okay, I thought... For carbon credit or whatever. Yeah. Now, I think, had I done it now,

that's how I would approach it. I would have started with the, okay, what private sector funding can I get? For making this more green. And then, okay, government, what's the price you can give? Okay, then... Cuan, yeah, Cuan, we're going. Okay, so on, okay, we're going to be

disrupts. disruption. If we've got disruption, we've got disrupts in the sector, agape-latered with marketplace, transportations, with ride-sharing, yeah, right-sharing.

But I'm seeing there some of the sectors that need disrupts that more more. I've spoken on a side with you, about energy. This disruption not much.

Not much, yeah. Then, There's been a lot of people, but there's been disrupts, and there's still much. And, is still many. This, if we're about people who are now

who are going to be like you, so they're not just not care, opportunity for more, for 10, 20, 30, time to the time. It could be very well be that people who are like this show this.

Eh, I want to be like Aldi, what I'm going to do. Talk about your views with regards to each one of these or some of these sectors. Okay. The most, I think, the super-penteing for us, is manufacturing. Like, MAPAN,

now, MAPAN, D'UAL PROGRUAL-PADUAL-IndonA. So, from the AWAL-AWPAN, we have product wide-label, where we're sometimes, there's the people who's in the arisen Mappan, they can make spray, like a certain that,

then they're made in the deserts, then they're selling to arisen, they're going to other. So imagine, if economy we can make with UMKM that buying products from each other. Because the collectivism that made

people to... ...and to look, and it's quality quality is good, now they've already export. That's a small that made spray this, it's almost gone, because it's almost gone, because of the barang import,

but with the arisen, with he made the sprays, it's very skilled, Indonesia, can very skilled labor, like that, there's a case where there's a lot, he'd have exported $5 million.

Wow. Per-boulan? Per-tour-purt-one? But still, quite a lot for that small village, right? And... It's, I think, something that we have to start thinking about. about it's because why Mappan is focused on the product Indonesia,

not that we're not going to be able to take from the other-negris. But we want these small businesses, these moms to understand that, yo, we're together got on the royong, we're as a collective, so, so, I've got to come from

Korean, when in the complex that, to miyawak the room of this, then, and then, and then, he was jewell, when you're gonna buy Hyundai, because you're gonna buy Hyundai, because I'm a Korean, And I feel like,

if we're the time for the world in KMKM, I think industry we can be able to be able to make sense. Because it's too, many factors from policy, investasies, infrastructure, pelabuhan. And at least if we can make sure we can make channel with arisen,

with e-commerce, then, the perjans, the regan can't get a level. That's why... I'm really excited that with the government to make up for Indonesia, we're like, mappan, we're doing

so, so we're not going to be connected, like, there's going to be a disruption there. There should be companies that... ...termastu permaidion robotics? ...termastrmast, I think that it's not just like... If you're a robotics company, right, ultimately. Then I think there's two things, right?

There's a supply chain part of manufacturing, which is how do you make the whole chain where efficient? Because now, it's expensive, expensive, the manufacturing process itself. How do you use robotics, how do you use machine learning and how do you use simulations and 3D printing to actually evolve better? And how do you aggregate these small entrepreneurs, the way that Alibaba,

how do we do that in Indonesia with our own with our own with our own with our own country, because if China can have that government investment in the manufacturing industry that export to America, so Alibaba just used that. Now, how do we as a country create the policy from government, create the demand, with mapan, dual product Indonesia, and create the tech innovation

that can make what sector this is efficient. So that's, I think, a sector that I feel is really important. See, what's another sector that is extremely important? How about agriculture? Agriculture, yeah. Indonesia has... 13% from PDB. 13% of PDB.

and 10 hundred of the petanee, small, and the land not yet not yet eight hectares. So, so that we're being trotocotanam is still traditional. So, the yield-neigh-it-it-youldt potential, yield potential. I'm taking courses in the Blanda for agriculture,

but how much of their. They were their education. D'uiochapir. And this collectivism in the petanate is very big. I'm now, I'm now, crowdy.

They focus on the collectivism Colomacier 2.0. So he made petanicaabe to learn how to panam with padi, with, with seeds, with the pupo,

and then their yields can go up by 40%. It's the same concept as Mappan, collectivism for petan, did digitize. Mapan, collectivism, for the room-tangue, to digitalized. It's from Hulu, to hilir, too, that's really that's being unleashed.

Banyan. Banyan. Banyan. But, but the problem is different. I think what people mistaken in agriculture is, that's the cabe and coffee did treat same. Although, if coffee,

or mango, or the other, more than a lot more than a better. It's almost like every single crop is its own industry. And so I do believe agriculture is important. But agriculture is not only from information technology, but from the biology. Somehow, with our country that's very suburb and we have rainfall that good and the

the land that volcanic, So that's not really investment to make us people from anywhere from where to make Indonesia to be a center biotech, I feel like it's going to be game-changing. Because we're, as a geographis,

we're as a de-de-de-de-kechina. And I think we have what it takes. We have an internal population that can consume. So, in the care of the economy is very important. So I feel like agriculture is definitely a sector. And that's why e-fishery and Crowdy is both in agriculture. So personally.

Next one is healthcare, healthcare, education. Healthcare and education. Healthcare, I think, primarily, is about access. That's about 5% of GDP. Yeah. But it should be more. I think we should be treating, you know,

there's a lot of people that just don't... Actually, in the negasas, it's more than 10% but it's men cerminiscency, because, because assurantia, that's true, that's true. That's a separate conversation. But if I think that's about 10% is the ideal.

But right now is the access, the number of doctors per capita, it's not even if it's not even in one generation. It's need to be able to make a better to learn the doctor our, or training upskill of our bidsane or nurse our. And using technology like telemedicine to be able to be it, to use a technology to make-education to make-education that if you're going to becky-education,

I think that change needs to happen, that's right. And I'm not optimistic, because I think the whole last year, 2020, it's made people aware about the education for healthcare, so, yeah, like HALODUC can work with LAPAN, can work with crowdin,

with, if we can, for assurances it, you can create this ecosystem where awareness is more than And I think what's important is not educating people at the top, but the one in the bottom, for the — — if you're not to — — just to be the — to come to the — —, like, to do that, like, and Mappan, I think, is actually in the position to do that,

can, right? Okay, I want to push this. This, if we look, this, if we look, in the countries in the in the other than the other than disrupts, there are innovations, technology that's disruptive.

There are five that's notable. Pick one out of the five, and let's go deep, to end this conversation. The five is, genomics, energy storage,

artificial intelligence, robotics, and with blockchain. Okay. Let's talk about that. Blockchain, is the inting, desentralization

a certain that's a bit that's a bit more than a stifat before, which is centralistic. And on that there, there's also transparency and recourse on-gras-maring-accuntability for the people-gunagued. So, this, it's be-pac-pac-pupupular.

Plus-minus is what, or minus-ne-ne-ne-neous-ne? We've got the plus. Not really the whole plus, right? I think blockchain, in my view, is the manifestation of collectivism. Okay. Okay. Because,

before the other than we're going to do we're doing with other, that's not we've got to trust, it has had the penangangu-neigh, the intermediary, right, whether it be a bank, whether it be some firm, or an e-commerce website, or whatnot.

But with blockchain, verifications, it's a trussetka-cuitary it's a technological solution to eliminate the need for a centralized authority. Because, because, because, if there's centralized authority, a lot of the value from that transaction will be captured by the central authority. The same way that Facebook holds all of our data, right? And banks hold all of our money,

I think what blockchain enables, that's something that has had central authority, so that's not but to me. The reason why it is positively disruptive is because it will increase equality, it should be equal. And it's scary, I think the biggest that

the most that's that people that is that's the people that's about blockchain is, if not there's central authority, then what happens to the companies that's been to just do exactly that? Exactly that. It basically makes them non-existent or irrelevant. Unless they adopt. Like China, the government, already made a central bank digital currency,

right? They've already made a central bank, digital currency. And maybe that's been a way you want to replace the dollar. And I, I say, that with blockchain this, if it's more the more than we can make up, we can make up, we can move to the new new,

and for farmers, smart contracts, That's because of blockchain. Smart contracts, the concept is that was, if there's authority, to put in the people, if they,

if it's insuransi, okay, if you're the cuacan you're going to be paid $100,000 because crop had it didn't, if not do you. With smart contract, you don't need an insurance company to do that. You can actually just get the data from the satellite,

make contract the, and then, when when you're just to get out of the time, you can pay. So it's immutable, and because of them am Ikechalking, everything is transparent. So you replace authority with transparency, and I feel it will make make friction be a lot. Carlinsey hedging is another example.

How do you address the concerns within the pre-existing authority with the penexisting technology this? ... ...the first, it's, it's, ... ...theidermain with crypto. Yeah. I want to go into crypto.

...or blockchain with crypto, or blockchain with Bitcoin. Because, I think, three things, ... ... the intermingle, ... ... ... because, ...

... ... let me give you an example, ... NFT, non-vun-vailable tokens. If we have a lookistan, there, that real, that's a lot of $10 million, but that copy-in-y-y-dra and actually that concept exists in the physical world.

But in the digital world, can, don't even until it's an NFT, which is, with data authentication that's the data of authentication, we know the chain of ownership, so that the authentic lookiesan or authentic digital piece can still be sold. And it's, actually, But musisi, ramifications for artists.

Suddenly, you don't rely on a record label, Lucas, musicians. It changes the way that art, as we know it. Poets, peniourts, and stuff. You can put everything in the blockchain, make it an NFT, and then you can set the contracts, royalty can be taken to the smart contract in the NFT that. It's nothing to do with the central bank,

and, because, they're, it should embrace this really. But for that requires infrastructure, to make the smart contracts, to transition from cryptocurrencies that smart contracts this is based upon to rupee. So there's a lot of things to be worked on. But if you do it well,

we can use blockchain for something positive for our industry creative without... ...legitimization or sovereignty our... ...sovereignty, and this is one application. So as a central banker, I would find out what are the problems that I'm trying to solve. Don't just, just maybe we're playing crypto, because it's true,

but what are the fundamental disruptions that can be able to? Yeah. If... If I, it's important... ...theircate... ...perbeda... ...andar ...ant... ...antarididmal. with the same with the new.

It's a bit philosophical. But if we look, there's standard emas to make up US dollar. And, why that's it's been a lot because that is amalgamation from one that's the fact

that's a time, that's emas. He's not gampang to travel over space, because it's... And one other, the other, travel over space. Jal much more than it's not necessarily over time.

It's not being a convenient partnership. But it's still, it's still, that's the one one that's been that's the most of the people, so they're a bit more than what, how, how, how, how, why, it's more than it's more than it's more than to assign value, because, you know,

what other than with the pencatacan of money in the last year. So the philosophical element of this is that maybe this is this is the concern this with existence of Bitcoin, who's success med democratization of money, which in that, he can travel over space, and travel over time.

Because finite, the sumlhaned, so that value is that's very assigned. Yeah. Now, ah, is that the way to sell? The Bitcoin proposition over the over-value dollar proposition. I'm not too, because Bitcoin is

I'm going to be it's like that Bitcoin with emas is like. Two-two-two-punate amount in this the two-dunay-dunay-dunay, two-douin-dain, actually globally valued, today at least. As in finite. Yeah, so it's finite, and everyone's just, there's finite, but there's, but there's not devalue, right? So this is finite and people perceive there's a sense of value.

So it's liquid, basically, today. I think the question is, right, actually amaz, now is able to be traded in digital format. Yes. Gold certificates and whatnot. So the question is not whether or not the standard it has to be able to from emas to Bitcoin or from the government bonds,

about bonds, to the amazes, I think it's a question whether we're based on a finite asset, or it is based on the, essentially, right now, the credibility of the government. Yeah. But within logic, something finite is more

gampangue. But it's also very restrictive, right, from a policy perspective, right? It's very restrictive. Because emas, because of the time, or something like a big time, or something like a hack. I think it's very restrictive from a government perspective.

And I think the way that global trade is being done today, it is much, much easier if the governments are able to still manage their currency. Now, I am a proponent of using digital currencies, central bank digital currencies, as a way to intermediate this issue. Because people are like, oh, let's do Bitcoin as the currency of the world. I think that's a bit utopian. But let's stick with the current standard, I think it's also not great. Now, if every central bank start issuing their digital currencies,

then it becomes more transparent, which currency is actually being used for global trade. Then, man, man, may not be able to value dollar or not, Yeah, if it's the people believe in the digital you want or the digital rupee, then that currency will hold, and it's transparent at least. If we're, we're going to be from the central bankers, right, in the US, and I feel Indonesia actually can play a leading role in Southeast Asia in this evolution of digital currencies.

I wasn't referring to rupee. This, this is more per-parker in dollar. Dollar, yeah, as a global trading... Yeah. I think you can change that once the central banks make the digital currency, digital Euro, digital U.S., and then suddenly people can choose, right? Yeah. And because it's transparent, it's all in the, you know, it's all open.

You can start seeing that the dollar is no longer going to be the only currency of choice. So, yes, you can use Bitcoin, but the volatility also, because it's a bit scary too, Biana, so. Like, like, man, week later, time. Yeah, now it's like again, since we've got to meet the week last. So anyway, last question. 2045, there's been about a unicorn by then. I think we'll stop counting by then.

Yeah. Maybe not even being called unicorns again, yeah. Yeah. But it's not an impossibility, can, for maybe there's more than 100 unicorn

in the year of 2004. No, I don't think it's impossible. But I don't think it's impossible. It's also the definition of a unicorn. Because unicorns right now is based on valuation, right? Let me give you an example. Germany. Economy their economy, maybe,

such a number of unicorns, but their economy their mapan. Impacting is gila. Because they're many, medium-sized companies who don'topang the economy because they're making a very particular type of engine. And what's the idea is? because they're economy in the economy in the company this menager

the company is high-as-called the owner knows their employees, and it's made German, in a state crisis, people are still learning to work hard, people loyalty also big, the problem we ascribe to the very western far-left, far-right side of the equation where everything has to be consolidated at scale

and you have the megacorn, You have deca corn, you have all this corn, corn, corn, you start losing the collectivism in person that. And I think that's why, like, Mappan itself, in structure, we always focus, like in the day of the cedar-level cader. So you have this hierarchy where that human boundary of collectivism is about 150 people.

There's a research around this called the Dunbar number, right? So if you can make these groups of 150 people, and people feel that way, like the German companies, I think Indonesia is more mappant but the the mappanism, not necessarily tech unicorns. I like it. I like how you're using culture as an angle to see where the future is going to be. Yeah, right?

Yeah, many of not look, from the cacamata, this. Right? Yeah. They see the economy, right? Yeah. They're going to look at the non-budayanaean. Yeah. to drive valuations,

and the drive the value and everything. But just through, that's really structural, that's a culture that there. Butto. And if Indonesia, still Indonesia, still collective, and gototong-rooyong,

I think, we as a person in private sector, as investor, we cannot forget that the foundation of our foundation our collectivism that, and percuma,

if we're like a raya, but we're all of individualist, that's not tolerant, they're not saying that's not like. And I don't want my kids to live in that world. Yeah. And that's why I feel like, I think Mappan is a company I founded a long time ago,

but it's still really near and near to my heart. Yeah, you know, you sound very passionate when you talk about it. Yeah. Dee, thank you, thank you very, same, same. Is that at you. Same, same. Thank you for the time.

Fascinating discussion. Same, seru, from the day'sa, crypto. Sip. Treman, that's Aldi, Hario Pratoomo, founder of Mappan.

Thank you. Endgame is a podcast by the School of Government and Public Policy Indonesia. The first Indonesian policy school to offer a full-time master's program in English and is a production of the cinema Indonesia's award-winning entertainment and technology company. Oni Jamari and Angad Wima Sassonko

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