Endgame with Gita Wirjawan - Chatib Basri: Kelas Menengah Digempur Ketidakpastian

Episode Date: June 4, 2025

Chatib Basri, ekonom senior Indonesia, membahas tantangan ekonomi Indonesia, termasuk ketimpangan kelas menengah, investasi asing, dan reformasi struktural untuk meningkatkan daya saing global. Ia juga menyoroti pentingnya pendidikan, digitalisasi, serta peran pemerintah dalam menciptakan kepastian hukum guna menarik investasi dan mendorong pertumbuhan ekonomi.Mantan Menteri Keuangan dan Ketua BKPM Indonesia tersebut kini mengajar di Departemen Ekonomi Universitas Indonesia serta menjabat sebagai Komisaris Utama Bank Mandiri serta Presiden Komisaris PT XL Axiata tbk. Dengan keahlian di bidang perdagangan internasional, makroekonomi, dan ekonomi politik, ia pernah menjadi Senior Fellow di Harvard Kennedy School, profesor tamu di berbagai universitas terkemuka, serta anggota dewan penasihat di World Bank, IMF, dan berbagai institusi global lainnya.#Endgame⁠ ⁠#GitaWirjawan⁠ ⁠#ChatibBasri⁠Catatan dan referensi tambahan episode ini:https://sgpp.me/eps216notesJelajahi dan jadi bagian dari komunitas kami:⁠⁠https://endgame.id/⁠⁠Untuk ajakan kolaborasi dan kerja sama, hubungi kami di sini:⁠⁠https://sgpp.me/contactus

The other is that's the world is the world's always with the world's the same thing that's the specific for the middle-class So even if they're given Peabasance Pajat, they're not niquatine One of the reasons of why many Indonesians become religious is because they have to deal with the government Because uncertainty is that's big What I'm going to what I'm going to watcher.

Government, but it's got to beauntleting the best. Capacity. Wobachin inequalities of opportunities, wealth, income, and centripetalism. Of economic development, how do you know? Pedidica, training. Not be able to, not. Intellectuality or swasana at university in the discussion that

that's not muchle, because audience not there. Critical Masses also must becumculecant to make making sure that the country has been a lot of hello,

kawan, we're coming with my catap basri who also a person public intellectual that's great. Be, thank you much atas the cunjumannes.

Thank you, Gitt, it, has been done. Co-harmatan, You're likeer 22 August, in 5 in Jakarta, tell you, de, perjalan of the

life, process penediction in the room and then, in school, in institutions, social, and how much,

you know, when you're in a little? This, this, what name it, yeah, maybe this stereotype, yeah,

from people that people that, and in the people in Jakarta yeah yeah yeah, yeah that's the way

and I'm in I'm sorry to back to Jakarta I myself I was born in Jakarta and grew up in Jakarta so when SD that's D'SD that's Dressula

yeah in the Dekat Ruhmah school is Penang yeah then again then then

SMP in Samp, you're at Nisius, you're D'u Kanishis, right? SEMA Kaniyus. Then, then, Kulia, di FUI. So, there's always in the KATH, or school,

that's not more than five kilometers, from the room, so that's stereotyping. So, maybe, what, what,

um, the, what's, the place more, to, then, then, then,

then, that's in the the other thanaghan the under the undercutta-kent the under-kerja-worked. The department-tenag-kerja then, and then-rubhawed,

then-the-termigraise, and co-peration. It's from from 67 to 78 to 78. Now, one thing that make because of guise, we have

we have used to work so, it's the time not the night, you know, but at the time 7th of us, we're going to be and we're going to be together. Now, there, he's many story because, what,

the name, she's also tentara, yeah. Okay. So, he's pension, too, Mayor-General. So, he's about talko, that's something that's something that's

like I'm not then I'm sure give you. So, it's very much to beacca about biography because

he's about, the, uh, the, uh, in the work-a-

with, um, what name-a- uh, Peron, juanita Peron, yeah. Wow.

And then, in Mausadong. So, so for the child like I was like I was like that, this is something that's something that's very much. I'm going to beaucing. Now,

the adikna, is Asurusani, sutradar and penulis. This is a person that many really, and this is one of the other,

the other, the person's, I'm not overtaught backang. You know. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Very sure according to order as far as the other not there not sure. So, I said,

I said, I'm going to talk, so he'd ask, you know, go to go back.

So, they said, it's, that's the So if you're not You're not because of what you're like You're going to be able to be able to be able to begoal I'm going to come back again

He said you're going to be able to Adairn't your Adairn's bocab So this This is it's with perspective That's the way So when you go School out

Amil Master He said he gave Pesan that You know, you You know, You're school, textbook is same Inan Yeah, yeah

Yeah, but what but that's if you're about the like you're about if you're the way that intellectuality in the place it, it's not a good if you're just

from the basis of school that's actually only malady we're thinking systematis because in the work that not can't be used

afallan that y'amahua the mother, the mother-tangab but people who are who's obsessed with And this, this, this, this, this is very important.

So, he's all right. He, he's, um, I want to take master and PhD. Because he said, you know, if you can't be able to, uh, So, that's something that's a way, so much more yeah, so that's typical,

that's the only, it's not, bock up, that's, that's, that's, and this, this,

what, this, what, I'm, I'm, I'm, about, man,

man, men, men, men, men, men, men, about,

what, people, who, people, who, the, I'm I'm going to be

I'm going to be going to be in whether I'm going to be in a time when I'm not know what to be what you have been

you've been yeah yeah yeah because because because I'm not know what to be what so that

because more more than theater more than satra I was back I'm going to be better

I'm going I'm could I'm I'mccccc yeah Atchay, because, can't, from the omni, right? Yeah, can't be in college,

playing theater, I'd be able to do, but in time, but I'm going to be able to be able to be tentara. So, he said, if you want to school, you know, live from where? This, can't era now, where creative industry,

to be people, can't be money, right? Yeah, he said, you know, if you know, definition of the sameoer, doctor, yeah, or sarjana economy or sarjana

hukum, that's, like that's, so because, I don't know, that, in ICAJ, has to, amble jurusant like that. Now,

I, too, not tertarick economy, that, really, not tertaric economy, this, I'm serious, because I'm,

because I'm, there's, I'm sure, but I'm but I'm afraid of evolution so I'm not I'm not retaric because I'm not

not so economy because I'm going to economy is something that's a lot of everything is all it's unung-dung-rugy this, this is not manu-law

as well the world in the theater is kind of person's a human-n-n-n-y- human-n-n-n-to-ty- so I'm thinking

I'm better think I'm either psychology or politic. Now, Daftar, okay? Daftar, I'd tarot Pilihan per capita, put You, you, put, piquant,

you must, pick, pick, two facultas. Now, then, I'm being king, there's a friend who said, you'll pick two, what? I'm going to be able economy. Then, he said, he said,

it's not, it's not, he can't, FIUIUI, that, competition is a big, so. So, if you're not Yeah, if you're not you're not if you're not up. If you're not about. So, he said,

you're rubhae first, economy, then the other political. And he said, you'll not be able to get ridima too. I and I also believe with him.

I'm not going to beckonement. So, I'm going to beckoning. Then, yeah. Politic, the two. Eh,

he, didima. Diterima. Dityvaue, reacti first. Maty, me. I'm going to school for something I'm not like,

this, this, this, this, this, this, this, how, from there, I'm going to be able to learn how, how to make economy that, so,

I can't, the compampuan cognitive, I've been't in class 6 S.D. So, I have to make it

to be a hardana, Bisa, I'm not so, I can't be able it to

make it more human, that, that's that's the way, that's the that's kind of the way to something that I'm notary and I'm sure. But you've got to be

sure you can survive in economy, because maybe the dashar you, too, quite, sootulness. Yeah, can? Yeah, muddha-mudda-udahan, yeah, but when that, but when it was...

It's... ...jaddy, it, barang. When, it was, it, because, Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, right. Yeah, no choice, can.

If not, IPK in the back, where about that? Two, can't come out, well, if I'm not sangue, to, to bempertangue to jop to give to, to give up, can?

It's hard for that. So, so, I'll fight in there. And so what I'm doing what I'm going to do. Forre, sorry, rather technical. Mathematic, yeah. I'ma think mathematics is language. It's a bahasa.

So, just the way of the way it's different. How much the way that we're going to look that. We're going to look that because of all. Now, if there's one model, yeah, Jantua'etka, because of the javagintrisno, because of Sucoculino. So if I make, down model, bayangangangelo, if you, if it's dependent variable the jacetka, why, then it's detuant by frequency pertemua, y, function, if it, if you're going to beaughnessetka, I'm just two-cali-geted

I'm that's about beta that's per X plus one he asymptotic. That's what you're that's about. Yeah, not pern't d'apot.

But with that I'm getting get into, that's what I'm doing yeah, al-hmdulilah survive, so it's you, gap, this is, the time of the

time? Nugue, how long? 9-2, S-1, 9-4, um, 2-3-town, ma'i.

Yeah. Now, that's also, that's also, that's also, that's not, that's not, that's talk about, that's too? That's too? Yeah. Or, that's in a gap, that? Uh, after you're losing S-1? He said, he said, you know, he said.

You, he said. Wow. But you're peru, three to make a few, time, to make sure. S-2. So, bet, because of course, because of scholarship, not available. Okay. Yeah, so, you must be able, and, uh, uh, uh, When that to America,

there's stiller's scholarship economy. There's not that only to environment because of the new or the bigang like urban planning or what. Okay. I want Jaya Asis,

can look up really. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not look up, la. I'm going to look up, you know, ma, it's, you, too, you're protegey-negedy yeah, you're the most of the MES, mutual.

at my race in society. So he scratched my back, I scratch his back. But he doesn't know you to go to America when it. So, he went to be able to beauntar, it's 7,000, after I I'm going to and scholarship is quite there's before there's LPDP so if we're going to go out of

the Mneph Fort Foundation and it's not there for economy so I got scholarship 9-3 actually that

that's after from English schoolhally not schoolhally not schoolhally not but scholarship but the but the way that

again, this is the second another one of the same, there's a person that there's a course dulae about two months or three month, for like orientations,

that's, in English, much, much, in British Council. It's, every day, jam seven pago. I, too,

It's a big up on the big up again. So, but it's just like, no, no other, no other without, Maripangestu. He, he was in the F.A.U. He said, you want to come

to where. I've got to get scholarship from the U.K. Schoolhany up? Then he said, why don't you go to A&U? Because that was the school he was.

And then, Enek, okay, okay, why, I try. I'm going to apply, not know what, did remember, and it's program acceleration, so it's going to master. The problem is,

not a scholarship, but, so, so, the, so that, the U.S. The U.K., had a scholarship, the, school,ash,

the school, yet. Now, then, then, she's, with Ma'am, Rue, again, I,

I'm, I'm, I'm, he's it's it's you he's just you do you he's called you're in how much how much more than there's people

in Asian Development Bank namainer Michael McColley who's who's you come come to give a word with

to me to call ship I'm going I'm not with Peter he said he said come back

you've got come up sure you've got you're just give just the the book soot to Peter McCauley

yeah, yeah, and I'm gonna do you and you, then I'm going school, but there's

there's scholarship now, then, and then the form of the language they can't write in

the language, give to give, there, there's, there's there, D.

Wow. Surat from D. I don't know to, because why, because unflop the

actual D. So, what this? I'maupon, I'maulah,ly, he said, we are interested to pay for your scholarship. Why don't you go to ANU? So, do you? Now, in sisi-lain, I'm al-a-lapagued. So I'm going to make a cutusan that same-susk, not systematic,

which I'm random. So I'm going to golly, though. If you're an economist, I'm assuming that what, what name a economic agent to rational. Butal, but there's like that's impulsive, so I've got to do you've got to school. A lot more I've been to be able to be able to go back home 7 every day. I've putuskhan, let's go to Australia. Top.

Then, then, long, S-3. At Australia, S-3, then, then, get-temned with Hal Hill, Professor Hal Hill, he, and you, I'll be happy to be your supervisor.

So, then, he's written, he'll telly a scholarship, he's going to talk about his house aide, that he wants to be supervisor. Now, I only know about a year, because of the long, the year's going to start Ph.D. This, if, how,

How do you? to be more Kativ Bastry. How much how we can scale up? What's the we're saying

is what the the of representation as as

as a or sisui or guru in the this is this Yeah, that we got upy

in America, there's almost 400,000 India, Amper 400 000, Indonesia's just 8,500, in English, 200,000 from the Hong Kong. School, in all the campus, Indonesia, just 4,000. How much, to me, for the lembagakan? Good question, because it's, there are some factors.

And soalunay, that I was, availability of funding. So, that's not that we're same as in the government, we're location budget for LPDP, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because we think, because how and the good, that's good,

that's good, top school. It's got to be when I remember when I was visiting fellow at Harvard 2015, after I was

after I was done, I'm done, I'm doing, the people who people who, people, that can't

get you, in Harvard Square, that restaurant yeah, because just total that's 11 people. I'm,

bayangin, yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to get to be able to be able to be. Backer to be. Now, April, I was to Kennedy School, that's in Indiana

that's in this only in 20, only in Kennedy School. Not at Harvard Business School, not in, so much, so.

So, the artiness, But then, but then that's more than the the person that's different. people who's privileged and even asyliness pinter. So, so he

disediaean facilitation via-sissua, he's-A-T-N-U-D-N-E-R-N-N-U-Bugus, the year-n't, he can be back. Massalhania, can't not everyone can't, this is per-bella-in-k with Tionkok

T-T-O-N-N-D-A. or India. it's their nurture, they prepare people to be able to be top school. This is that I'm going to be people must be thinking not only the ANBASISISWRN,

but also them persiaping people to be able to be able to get to SAT GRI. This is a problem practice

actually, soinga, more more than more than that can be that. That's one That's the two

The other The other Why is, quote, yeah, intellectuality or a suasana in universities in the discussion

that, yeah, I don't know this definition, quot and quoth, that's not muntu, because audience not there.

You spend as fellow at Stanford. Comearen, the last, when we got to getmue, so,

Right, if we're in there, we're here, we're here, we're in the that's the day-hawar-to-dus-discu-called. Yeah, seawur-gaworthy-n't-a-wondy, so we're not-could-baud-a-old, so we're-bac-bac-bac-bac-bun. Yeah, can't, because it'll challenge. Now, we've got to mill you, or the lingquang that kind of. because that. critical massing up to

because of course of course it's still more than back where there's brownback seminar at campus, it's been being done to be able to scale up that it's not gampang because factoring not only

funding but the linguanguing You mentioned about Iwan, I'm Jaya Aziz. He's pergy to Cornell maybe because he but to audience, right. Yeah, because if

in here, maybe, he's hard. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, right? Yeah, right. Yeah, he's got to, they're in general, if that's been becoming.

Now, in the bayangangue, that, but this in, it's, it's not much that, that's that's about, that's that's about that's about

maybe, uh, one day, it's, yeah, he's dolehka to, uh, put a network and

work, soingga, diaspora we can't be able to be sure, that's, so, so yeah,

so, we can be, yeah, we're gonna, weirian, in Stanford, at, at Harvard,

that, right, right, it, can, moda, yeah, moda,

like that, But I think that we also how much we've got to be able to you too you're really goodung about in the room of the topic that's

about every day on the meja-mackan and if we can look yeah 88% of from the room-tangue in Indonesia this the

of the home-tanguans not have S-1 or to-at-a-at-a-a-tas to the So, we're hard to because of massif

there's discursus on the peningan penitism that's a bit of little, like, if you know, there's

a good or anomaly, well, now, not, must be disruptsi. Yeah, right,

in institutions social, if they're out of the room, there's a talk about, to beaupon if you know what's about

whatever's called, that's called, like, in the institution social, in school, like, in the place ibada, or if it's, they'd,

to bring back to umhack. Now, that's, so, the, the power of the,

and it's like what we're looking in India, in Hongk, in Korea, South, Singapore, Taiwan,

Taiwan, Japan, where, that? Al-dalen Yeah, this I'm because I'm because of this

I'm serious but this whole this. This we can't use can't perspective we in the time with now.

I'm a kind of, just, just, just, just, just, I'm saying with my assisua my, you,

that, we're not not yet. We've we've got, we've got, so, so,

the tools' already, yeah. Now, in the era like this, It's a part-because of podcast because of the podcast, because they're not the talk about

about the discussion not like the time we, we're out, but he's melancholy digital. He's belgare from endgame. End game, to have been the segmentation and serious. I'm going to ask about mysysua,

if they're going to try but that, and game. So, so that's between really, you know, is to be able to media like this. And it's actually more effective, yeah,

yeah, yeah, more effective, for, to make, what, yeah, a, a, kind of,

a, where, where people, about, on things things that really, people,

you know, yeah, about, and about the about the different. and now with almost every people

it's possible information that is properlehe with good. Tentu, this I'll read paper law that the paradox of the

internet. In this way is information that's much also can't be cacao. So, the role of the pediccan this

is also important. This I'm true not have got to have a good but I've got to be able to be able to puttensy that's very discussion that's important

inshawah yeah I'm sure yeah I'm sure you know to we can't buddhaia that's that you're being superlative yeah and you

if you look at in India, Singapore, the, the, the, the the competition-that-ness is very. And with the other now, I see see, I see,

one of the other of some of to disrupts the to the , you know, to, you know, and,

and if, if, in the out of the home-tank-a- -to-the-the-the-the- -cuh, I was in cubo I'm more people who's more than

if I'm moreover she's-saintiffingingian to make-sci-sci-wis-wis-wain from-a-cru-cru-cru-cru-cac-a-ha-ha-cli-cac-a-cac-a-cac-cac-a-cac-cac-a-cac-cac-a-cac-cac-a-cac-cac-a-cac-old. But, not asbany-cour-cruing. Yeah, minimum, cogniziness, also be be be it's now this, like it's

it's going to be it's to make sure to make sure people more because if we're going to we're going to if we're going to if you're going

if you're good quality of the good if the university from the faculty member yeah look just all the school

school members that that's good This is easier to be said than done. But it's the key is the question you've been said. This is I want to test. So, how you'll you percaya, for the importance of democratization, idea, or education,

that if it's only if Indonesia, it's, or merankul, even, concept for, for our friends we're in Sumedang, at the bigot, atroqu, in the ata, in the

they're in the burqa. They're in the people who are the most of the matter of allayloran apopan. If he is a person from

Ethiopia, but he's the to make to make whatever what do you can't, can't, can't be able

if it's if it's not there, There's the good-a-a-aharan for the good-a-pacarant. Very good question. Because, even in FAU-I-W-I-A-W-A-J-I-R-I-G-U-I-G-U-Y-BU-J-U-U-U-S. Much, maybe it's not that-U-U-U-ROMU-BOR.

But, it's now, it's not-mulled, Yeah, yeah, that we've got to be able to do. Yeah, even while in the university in America, if we're talking about, if we're talking about, if we're not at the university that, unless you're not there, not, not be able toluck again, must be able to go ahead, after a year's life. Then, then, then, so that's about that's about it's about it, so that they can't be a perspective that better. In kita, it's not, but it's already now.

So, if we're in FUI, we're going to recruit or take people. It's been plon, plent. But, the idea is important so. Even if, if it's people from outside, yeah, who has skill or the powerbomahomahed that's been able to. Sometimes,

we're also, this is lucied, so there's one, there, another, the student from Indonesia, from EVEW in Harvard,

he, he was going to go to, the political economy in class Andre Sliver. Lucuia, when,

then, the campus, to be it's about the campus, about it's about it, not about? I mean, I mean, if you're going to be able to theory,

can they're making sure the topic of the economy in Indonesia. So, so, so, it's just being gand,

this, this is a this is true. This is a structural, yeah, this is very, that's structural. That's not

that. That's why, Harvard, it's open really to to know you to gawatergaple in Indonesia not asetrebucked it. To gondang anyoneamonding

this is the person who's the person who's the best thing for topic that I'm going to I'm going to hearin. I'm seeing this this is an impediment that's the same thing that's before

for if we're really want to scale up and making up and to increase quality education. It's been since, it's already

Now, now, now is more so much more than, but now, now, now, can, campus-outure, you can, move to be able to be in Indonesia, right? You're so optimistic what? For campus-campus in Indonesia, it's to be reich at the world. Good question. Because, I want flip the narrations, yeah.

Okay. So, if we're ambitia, or bea-aspiration, yeah, no, there's a lot of the for targeting top 20 as long I becky with A, B, C, D, D, that I've got to meet

the, the people, and the people of the school in Indonesia that's like that. Realisman is too thinky, which, inshawlah,

if, if we can, we can to number 150. Now, that's that's really has to puter-balik. Now, this I'm see-you-in-school without jow-jav-a-jav-a-gaw-law.

That's right, I was about, too, I was about, too, and that, that's, why not like that? How, how? This, this,

this, this is the question if, if you're, if you're, if, yeah. Singapore, it's,

is that's about what they're because of what I'm going to doodok board of Liquan New School of Public Policy that they're willing to recruit the best professors to teach the best professors to teach just the dean of

Public Policy Danny Quah is one of the best economists in the world Andrew Rose in business school is one of the best economists in the world And so willing to give you're willing to give them, endowment,

support, to make sure LKY is maybe number six in the world for School of Public Policy. In our, one, funding, there's still a problem. The second, the second, I said, I said, is the caterbatasance from faculty member.

Yeah, this, but this is, This is just because of the reason why not be made. So, if you're looking, the people who are not, the kids of Indonesia that good atop school, that's really, must be given the schemation for them, and whether they're still in there,

make network to see. Or, we're also, we know, to teach this. Misalya, yeah, yeah, if in a year he can be sparrow in this, that?

How long, in front, we, we can't, we can't, top 20th. If we're not if we're not even if we're even if you're making mindsettings by the way that

Singapore is going to be able to sped, issue-necessely, the issue-as-rely, it's about data, so on the question, you know, if you're, if you're, if you're,

about the allocation to where, yeah, so-al-al-lacusiness to come-one. Jumla, for the data-pennarer, but,

some-gian, the area, and, such, m'am. So, so-n't-n-n-lucas-ic- with-allocations- with a good,

yeah, while just from the project, maybe just a time in a relative appendix. That's a great start. Yeah.

Okay. Enough of education. We're going to economy, yeah. I'm going to be. This area of expertise,

you know, this. How do you look? We're, we know, yeah, can,

you've been I'm Trump or dampak posture of the I'm about about that you're not there near term midterm

long term okay the first there there there there there

there risko that has been managed yeah we're from policy of Trump he this, you,

yeah, I'm like, yeah, pragmatic, and in arty-cata, it's, it's not

so, can't also, the biggackance that, that's that's that's if it,

it's it, it can, it's good, that's somehow, it's rational.

Yeah. Now, but, let's assume, that what in the campaign it will be implementat start

from there. He he's going to doportation from illegal undocumented but don't remember in America that position the workerjaan that unskilled

that is the coassey did dominates by the group of this so if they're then, the deportasies, the application, it's the America,

that's probably for the other than position that all like that's like that. And it's not there's a other pangantyna.

Yeah? No, there. If it, if it, if, if, if, not, if, the production cost is, it's,

but, although, like, you fully aware, it, the, the, the, the, the,

the, the market-and-and-and-and-and-a-a-tank-a-cargare-a-cargare, because I'm-bac-a-ball-back-a-cargare-send-dement-nigh-nigh-nigh-old. Now, I can look at one, risk-co-dar-old-a-lung-a-lung-a-old-old-a-funk-a-old. Yeah. What-namb-n-n-nour-nation? Or, even, if, if, if, the fat, it's-hout-the-vade-hout-bun-bun-bun-bun-lagy. Then the two, Trump

Trump's trade implications of the money the money money that's going to make. If the deficit belangia will not be paid by the tax, it's not to beware by the tax. It's a issue bonds

if it, if you, issue, bonds, bond price's, then, then the yielding the yielding can, if you're going to if the fat, it's not easy to get gampang to menrunging bunga.

Now, implication the first from here is Indonesia, and many emerging market, has kept with situation where

strong dollar will be able to this. This is not because rupee only lemah, but, even,

the X, Y, or dollar index is, it's made to want to this kind of, this, this, this,

not be atas if we can't even if we're going to intervene in the market, the bottom of the market, so that's the same we're going to be able to happen one with exchange rate that's that can't belemah. Then, the second one is, the level bonn't buntan't be able to turn.

Now, allure central bank, in allure the world, I'm looking, it, bekerja at the mercy from fat. So, they're just to run in BATs, if it's if it's-hmm, if not, if it's-a-saint-rate-kina-cenaed. Yeah, right, tent-tentoo, this is option. If we're not-pap-upyraiseries, yeah, it's,

the possibility that's there. But, we've got, what, yeah, put a trauma in 98, every time rupegia only people, too, make sure about Asian financial crisis. Maka, what's the implication is, there's limitations or room from the bi, because B&E because of the longer down the exchange rate is melemah. In the down condition this, get, the factually, that's

the law that's not, ifical. If the monotermenia, not this, fiscal. Persuolation is fiscal. Fiscal space we're not atabatous. Yeah. Tax ratio we're still in 10, 11%. So, in 2005, what's about the same?

So, what's the amount of the sum of the cost of the amount? Bunga cichilance, that's about $800 trillion. So if government has issue bond again for, to buyer utang this, that's supply from issuance of what namah bonn of the government naik, that's yieldingham indonesia

and cost of our money is so much of money sohinked not much room for fiscal also make sure in the condition the option that's the option that's the actual reform

what that structural reform the pastion of the investment climate I always say one of the reasons of why many Indonesians become religious is because they have to deal with the government because uncertainty is great.

we've got to be quite certainitying. We've been able to dole-that-one-fere-you-will-all-a-pocket-a-poh-be-cappar-BKPM, we've got-beckas-ke-mahmac, we've got to beckxed how we're that we hadaping. Now, that's issues-issue that we have to docketing. What opportunity is. With the trade war, between U.S. with China, That's not not want, people, people, about the person base

dipinded from China. Now, this is a number that's interesting. I'm going to get correlated import from China in Vietnam with export Vietnam to US correlations is very strong. Artin what's happening.

Yeah? Yeah. I'll like in the same. Yeah, can't. Yeah, right? Yeah, can't. With that, I look, that's true.

That's true. That's right. 100 billion. I see what I'm I'm about Indonesia not there's a lot of so that's really there's room

to relocation to go back to here yeah yeah but how how people want to make sure

the factian the equipment climate the catitapastiener that's that's that I'm in

that I'm need to address if we want to make the opportunity if we we don't get investment

yeah China can't that's in the U. the U.S., he's uping to your Minister of Trade, you must know,

implication it is import our from China will make. So, so, the, I'll see, there, there's a

case if we want to be benadir, but if, if it will be pressure for us. This,

this I've mentioned, who's in Asia, Tengara. Every time, to, $200 million

dollar. From that's that's consistent get 100 to 140 Indonesia 25 up 31 Vietnam, Thailand

Malaysia, Malaysia, Philippina 10 to 10 to 20 yeah Pake Pekatan Tanahang just if Indonesia

want to make in Pertubuan economy not use not going to monetar, not use not going fiscal, we

talk the word I just right, right and if and if if you're I'm 3% to 3%

base line we're 5% that's kind of $401 million dollars from GDP 1.4, 1.5 Yeah, so, but it's up from 31 to 71. $71

million dollar FDI, that's also just down what in the Singapore has got. But, yeah, buntut-buntut-n-n-n-s-to-n-the-the-custy.

Yeah. I'll be okay, right if I'm going to do it. And in the community of investations, they're not too absolutist. Right in the way not usa perfect. What's the best of before. More than this is more than before

the day before. New Zealand. That's what they're trying, and directionality. So, but there, though, solution, right. There. There.

And I, and I, I think I think about reshoring French shoring or off-sharing but I'm in the Hongkog too much as industrial base

and they're productivity marginal that's very mappan and then rare earth capabilities that's not mapant

energy transition capabilities business is notepard. Even if we can't even if you get up even if you're not too much more than the rules of origin for routing

that correlations yeah, yeah, correlations from Vietnam, like from from from Korea, but the end-ugging we have to benah too, right, right,

yeah, right, yeah, right, right, but I'm, the keyn't, because, I said, I said,

I said, I said, I was, the, the, political, the world, the,

fiscal is, So if you know, if they're not too much more than what? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It's just 45%. Now, this is a good, very good, very good point, yeah. Because, this is a good good, uh, because this is, if we're doing boudo-burdue than it's core, yeah. Our core is kind of big-huged.

So, if we're going to move, how much anguish, 7%, let's call-can-la. We need, it, maybe, about investment over GDP, about 48. Yeah,

if we're still $23,000, that we need to need investment about $11,000, that's. Massalalance, domestic savings,

we're, 37% that's 30% 40% is about 8% artiness not too much resources domestic

so if it's from out from from from from that's not no other option so yeah

so although even even though it's tried did happen even sumber from financing

that is limited in this what we we have to to make up to make sure. Okay. There's two. There's a lot of

that's a new tariff. Tariff rate, the new thing. The second is administrative reform. Now, I want to tell this about the study

that I've been doing with, what, there's, Ben Olken with, Ben Olken, from, Ben-Oakin, by MIT,

with Reima, Rehanna from Harvard, we published in American Economic Review. Optioning upsy first, it's just making sure that price the taxed. But that additional revenue still not too much, it. Because, because tax base-neigh-neigh-neigh-based.

It's not meluas. So, while upon the price the rate-aumableness, not too much. If we're then turn-can rate with the hopean tax-based more than the cost-based

not-rength. So, there's study from World Bank that menugue that our problem our tax ratio that is because compliance,

a big because, yeah. Persuolation is a big issue of compliance. Now, now,

the question is how, compliance. I go from the study I'll do with Alken with Hanna, yeah.

So, we can look what can do you can do to make can make an tax rate.

Now, what's in Pajack, sorry for being technical, but this this is the name of

the way, in the in the the same's a. A. Representative. Okay. In the can'ter-pajak

that's the capital paratama that's one AR from the study it, it's pegged

150 perusan. One, he has pre-exed file-n't may. Mookin,

what he's what he'll he'll be maybe 100 taxpayer. Right, right atas. Or the person at 10% so much.

So, burden of tax office in the can'tor-kechil this is one of the 10% or 100 people because, because they don't have capacity to protect them. Now, what is that? Perusanne,

with looking to look that, the more they're paying data, the more discontinue, the same-in-ize, not there's nothantive to grow so if they're going to grow.

So, if they're still now, then how much the solution it? We'll look if this taxpayer top taxpayer dipindain

from the can'ter pagac Pratama to the market madia where the number of the people

partugas pagacted more then, then the burden from the company can't be sure to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to beaq. Now, if if that,

if that's done, it can't make up significant. and cost-it-it-it-it-it-it-a-f, now, idea this is important, and M-WF, it's already adopt this. So, in 2012, if not so, in 2003, they've got to be able to make KPPMADIA,

about 38. But this has been more than it through, so if, with that, will be more people what name a lot of the so that's not, because of the kentor-pajack not only be able to

in the kebun-binat-ang, but that's one. Then, the two, is so-al compliance. Persuallant with compliance to data. Now, in the dirjan-pajak is good with

the munchulness. In-mang, in the top-awal, there's a problem, so, he, so, he, so-s-system-it-i-i-tie-s, business process is more

more than the more than automatic is but this also to combination with access data to other people, samsat, activity e-commerce

soing they can't there can't exchange data you are an expert on this yeah now in the era like this data is the new oil Right? Profiling is

It's important. It's bethurtling because if we can do you can't identify from profiling data, the perilaku people, behavior

of people that there is many that we can make to make. So, so, so, so,

so, so, it can be cross-check if he report the pagegnax, but in per-banked why, he's not

match, that it's can do-cooked. Now, this is this is I believe that tax ratio can't. But, that's the standardization

has been done. There is, there's a lot of, for this, you know, to be able to make predictions in 5, 10 in, 10,000,000 20 years

this, this maybe and the numbering because of the good news is that's about the idea this is about

to government and then the government and the people want to make make make make sure the name

that koti is, where now that all data exchange will be done this is a problem. This is not process

that's because because of the because of the same because of course but the process now is now the present the President

is before 17 August that, that team has been made to be built. Barrowing, the time that came to

talk about this. 15%? Achievable? No. Tax ratio. If we'll bank, tax gap our $6.4% of GDP. So if we're about $1.1.7. Yeah, so much.

In the? Now, this, it's the speed of how much faster. If this committed, it's all, musty-n't-n't-it-dil-dil-tacko' in-dolmaping. Cucup slar-as, like, the thing is. Yeah, yeah, butto.

But, but, but, but, But that, but that's the digitalization. Right. Right. So, what's the javean AI is as a while? This is we're making, especially in the Dalmatite. I can't, I can't imagine,

that's actually, that data, for predictive behavior, and stuff like. Yeah, that's actually, yeah, that's actually, I can, I, one day, I'm I'm being, I'm about

platform that's used to. one day, maybe they can be able to insurance because if we can't make money, they can't, he can't be resico cholesterol is high, right? From, from there, premy, can, or if we're going

BLT, if we're, people, people, can, if they're pegang handphone, and 90, in terms of Susanna, 90% on the Asia, has been handphone. Mobility can be detected with Google Mobility,

And typical because they're not much because they're not because of the balli he's not, mobility's just just that, he'll buy SIM card

notas. So, profilinginginging can be able to do for the payback? Precisis. Precisis.

Precisis. Yeah. And also, it's not only for penguulalal page, also, for spending.

So, so I'll give some of a bit. Listrict, yeah. Listrict, that PLN, if they can't by name, if they're not, if they're not to make billing. So if they've got data by name, by address,

he knows room that's-magnar-mana that's miskin, that's not-miscan. If this data, then, the cross-tap, with Susan Nas, with e-commerce, they've got single-ID.

We can profiling in room-tang-a-in-in-or-nizkid or not. Nanty, it's-bentoo-bentoo-bent-a-l-old. So, b-l-t, but, right to household in the in the building built so that's about

it's quite quite you're quite passionate about penchiutan class mennaghan this why and the the way

and the okay this is you think I think you so that so that so 2003

that that ratio percentage of the class mennang in Indonesia isa percent from the total population. 2003, 2014,

it's up to to 18 percent. So, the kind of a time that's time from 2003, from 2014. And this, it's going to go to 18 19, 19, 21, I'm not so.

Yeah, 23. 23. 2009, he's down to 21% after that in 2002-203 into 17. Now, okay, people can be debat how do you define

on the class menenagued? But I have one one that's one that when we're going to get granular now, not can't again, so there's

10% the the bottom, 20%, 30%, 40%, What's, Gid, Gidot, that period of 2019-203, the lot of 40% is, the plumbuant income-necum more than more than more than

the class pendapotan 50-10, so that deities 5-8-8-8, that experience negative growth. class 80% it's 80% per cent it's the top of course real. So we're hadaping what brando Milanovic

said as the elephant curve like gajah so from here in class menhaghanhani and then on top again on top now this this is betuln't

that's what I'm beingung with Indonesia in one side say they say yeah belie melema class mennang

menchute but in Sisi-Syselfth. People-Iphone because of the iPhone because of the phone that's a lot of $80 to

that is they're spending in atas $12,000 $1,000 to $1. But, but Dessil 5-8

is a class that spending-n- $800-Jutte $800-0-0-0. This is experience negative growth. This is the But the billion,

Miscan, desil 0-4, they're notepatheed BLT. The social protectioning of much, there PCH, there, so, the helpuan the government focus on the poor,

you know, miskin, who's kind of the development, that class menhah this, not, dapet up,

what, yeah, the, the, So that's but that's in the same but that's about the amount of business. The government has to beaugh-lawful, we're going to cash 800,000 to 9.9, a big amount of the best that is the pedopatant not-pacact.

So even if they've given the bea-bebasin pajerk, they're not gnatin. So this isue that, I think, I'm serious. Now, if I can't let's continue it, yeah. So, so much, yeah. So, Gittembourg in Harvard Ministerial Forum, I've got to sharing one session with becass president Chile, Michelle Bachelet. He's about the best-perhasilancelland-in-a-capital.

Now, Chile is a country with pertumbuant economy at the time time in Latin America. Income per capita is the most big in Latin America. Human Development Indexes is the best-bake in Latin America. But 2009 was almost a revolution. when the government fair when they're about

the question about how much the phenomenon it's Sebastian Edwards then you're saying the Chinese paradox Now the causellation is The President of many the countries in the world

that focus always with the poor Then you can't makemating Pemangunan but not no specific Peaqaqan for the middle class I'm going to bea'uid. I'm going to beaicue this. That's because of the time of the PPN

want to be made up, one of the proposed and I dookung idea is to give them fordick for the home of tanga 2,200 watt to beaugh. Because this is a clompok in desil 5-8. So if he got electricity bills gratis,

the airstreyser, the end up the $1. 50% a few months, it will be able to they're going to this if I'm going

look yeah, there's phenomena economy that's universal with consenjangin

inequality of wealth inequality of income and inequality of opportunities but but also in many

the antipatal, not centrifugal. So, so accelerations per-opanedent per-oran in the more than the country in the country, the other than in the area.

Obatn'y how about this this, I'm going to go to be with how internet that's the that's the to to

to democratization moda-modic- but not that's just the elitization modality. Right, right? And, and, and, and,

oligopoly the power of internet that they're who are who are who controlled model and also for the the importance of the redistribusian model. I always, can, yeah, over the years,

with thebaghiaxilies that's allahuechusie co-wangan, that's all the thing. But, inclusion of not nimbun with democratization model, semestinia. Yeah, this,

in the country of bank, the capital cabang in the limit's far more more than the caper in Polo Rote. So, the penglontoranors of

or injama, just more than the other than the puset. Two-two-two-ypuner hasabhaphaned. But access to modality disproportionately different. And then, in compound with, if I,

I, that can even elitization tatan that pre-existing that's already elitisting that's elitist. Mubatin inequalities of opportunities, wealth, income,

income and centripetalism of economic development, how much? This is the question. This is true. Pedidication, training. Not-biscerap-a-gainting. Sput. Yeah. Pediccan-in-it-in-it-in-a-it-cuncunciness is that. So, so,

so, we did we talk about, what-nam-a-I, yeah, about disruption that's not terhindarking. we're going to back office will be it. In the back office, it will be able. He will be able. He can'ttick by AI.

Call center, which had been in Bangalore, in Manila, yeah, is 24-jams. He can be done accurate with AI. It's already.

It's been doing. Now, The question is, people with people with people with what do you? Sollusiness is, has risk-killing, right? Harus training. Now, this, maybe, bethutal, yeah, the way,

that's the technology digital, AI, the end-in-uped-a-li-boreau, where it will nirap, the energy-perja-le-per-bary-basket-re more. But, the problem is, adjustmenting is what? Yeah, if Keynes, we are all dead. If that, if that's adjustment that's about,

that's a reskilling, if we're doing, if we're doing, if we're trying, it's more efficient, where we recruit people who are new, or people who've worked with us, we're retrain? People like I, like, if, if it's, if it's justerle-gaininginginging not much, like, right now,

kind of the money's got much, but if you're like, but if they're correct new, maybe they're like, now this can put upplication in the down planning on the human capital, in company,

and all that will have, that's one. So, so, so we need to in the training risk killing. The questioner is

government can't do that I'm, I'm I'm sure, quite a lot of the people that's from government training center from BLK,

because the art art not too much. Not know, this joking just, yeah, joke just. Just, don't, not, even, I'm supposed to be World Star,

that's, but I'm sorry. Pascal, right? Yeah, Pascal, right. Yeah, to fortran. Yeah, that's like, like, that's like that. Because, you're not,

because of the money can't So it's the it's the private sector you city bank familiar with the DIPP executive development program banker Indonesia in 80 all over 90s

all right yeah 80s all right because they're making alenai because they've got to play policy policy and so I think what I can't do you do this is is actually asking private sector

to provide training on the job training now, of the job training, now, for they're not, give double deduction for text if they're

doing training. So, if we're making that not-gap, minted-a-gaping, what, from Google or from where

to do-in-trainings. Cases double-deduction for tax. I look at industrial policy with incentive like this, that's up to make-as-killing. Now, it's about the last thing, what's the last thing, the most repot.

I, actually, not put you to too much with industry 4.0. What I'm quiteer, is government 4.0. Because, bayangin, yeah, the government has to make peraturaan that, maybe, in 6-bun-lucked

again, because because disruption. I'm asking with my assisua, I'm in-a-court because of course card for pacar. No, there's a lot of course not relevant, right? Yeah, right? He's back on.

I just making making USB. Now, I'm going to air drop. A drop, right. Now, now, now, how can't the other than you can't be able. Now, now, now, now, now, in the condition like that,

if we can make regulation in six-bunct, maybe not relevant again. Padal, the end-unang, to not, we're not we're just to be able to be it's now this is the same thing about.

Agri-on-Rules to agree-on principle. So, if we're going to be able to, yeah, don't be, be, do you know, like, how much, give basic principles just, we want, for, the financial inclusion, not be there fraud,

there consumer protection, now, I'm going to say-in-same with you, government because they're sojave to because they're going to get ridgial bureaucracy. But agile bureaucracy is an oxymoron.

Not even bureaucracy can beaicrousy can. This is the problem and I think it will be adopied by developing countries, but I want to double-click to AI. Many who

think that AI is software. This is betuleners. This is the engineering. And if people who's about engineering, this is going to scaleability. If you're going to scalability, full-us, right? And who's full-us, has money to scale. That's only that, that's just that.

Not five or six-perusia-an. And I've got to have keyakening from six people. That's only thinking of their own. they're not can't make sure. yeah, right? Yeah, right? And, and this ischay. Now, it's a lot of it,

more elitization tatanan that's elitist. And if they're like, I'm going to spend CAPEX for the development data center for this,

it's about thousands of dollars. And if we're going to We've got to 3, 4, that's the Kappaed by the Indonesia. Now, that we can't think that. I just can't look at supremacy AI. That's only been

in Hongk and America States, where we're only being just a penantone and as long we're not, the risk we're not even can't

even can't make making cognizue, not can't redistribusically public goods, that's not small, yeah,

so it's the end-uging-o-y-joumess. Yeah, can. How about, de? Memang, want, not-mow, it's always, has been because, can, gina, if we're invest in the data, or digital technology,

this, can capital-intensive, very capital-intensive. This, if, if, you're not-gung-tang-gust, like that, man, that's like that, that we're in fact that we're can't do you, we're thinking,

we're talking about, why India it's, not, not, but don't, until Silicon Valley, yeah, Tioncok is relative

because he has network, with diaspora in there, right, yeah. Can, after the,

the end, there's, people, also, about where he can't invest, he's got a good

proximity, maybe location can be far now, this is in this I think we can't make you,

I agree endgame perkali and you tell you about about about

storyteller in Indonesia to make make sure that the country this has been and we

don't talk about soal potency this This is all the time. always being a potential, but never we realize. So, it's important soly, for storyteller.

Then, networked in international. Because this, this can't go-noburnished-you-you-tina, this kind of not-suka, this reality-iddub. It's, can, is club, actually. Yeah. If you part of club that, it's... It's... ...jadi, right.

...is-in-sina-old. also there in Indonesia, not there's not there. If you, yeah, it's, he can't put up access to

that's about that. That's what I'm from government, from what, it's, it's proactive, and the

can't be conventional, that, so, yeah, so, the money can't be able to get to

get to, we, we're, part from, from, from, the network it's,

this, it's, it's, it's, with, I, I, for Indonesia or Asia-Tengara,

with, with the United, how much, you know? In the tatan of the Unicah Multipolar, I'm going to look Tionkok is as

some of technology but I'm going to see, G7, that's a American-Slerik, it's as

as a sumber flus. Yeah, that's a good. And this ispherst, impetus, M2 is more than Tijuana. And Tioncok, too, if I think I'm gonna' since the luncurekansuropan, philosophy, dual economic circulation, domestication,

the domestication, and this is buled by the peoplepins in there. That implicitly, it will be able to POSY-based, in a relative. So, capacity their own exportation exporting model, yeah,

not can't be able to much up to take up and big data in context BRI, belt and road. This is that in 2013 for Asia Tengara, it's $720 million dollar, not wrong, realizations still in below 100.

This, this is structural, to manifestisical, to getterbatasance exportation model. So we have we can make sure or carto geopolitic

now it's maybe a bit more than participation we're in breaks that you look at it's how much this is a tough question in the art of the case in we're in this we have to look

in this in the context geopolitic to the whole yeah in one side we I've got to say, that's about you're about there's about

in your term to exportation modality. In other, we're doing not want to make sure, I'm not going to make sure, I'm not a expert on international relations. But this is a strategy also for balancing from the cites the bigs is being being a bigotan,

there's risk going to be people being in which, what's what what is, what is, what I'm, I'm,

more, get, so, there, there is a whole that must in Indonesia context in some

in Asia, position we're in Indonesia position we're escaping the binary choice. We're not want to come to come

to be there but one day this become unattainable because maybe I must

make if if one day there conflict or or or

or per- ingingan in the internet of things Yeah, you know, you know, or system China, or system US,

we should make. Now, before it's done and it's menulit can't we, Indonesia, I'm sure

proactive in this. So, rather than being a global spectator, is still you, just not on just on

just from the situation global this, we need, we need we need resources our for bargaining

in context in. Apaka it, is geopolitical location, apacheal mineral, is what is what is the resources that we have, geostrategic. So this what we're going to think about

how to make sure to make bilateral, workasama with China with US maybe like that track 1, before track 2, track 1.5 where not only

the administrative business also started to be able to be able to work and make sure about the trilateral between U. China, maybe not?

a real-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-i. Digital. You mentioned about AI. China, there's got a set-batassan in the what-naman modality. Indonesia has market

America, can have money. This is a thing that is, what, yeah, schemas, structur-ness is to be-pickir-ed

for that. Then, what other, what can be done? Mennay-an-Ean-er-Gy. about critical mineral. we're dominations, we're going to nickels.

China. We're soaracted to them. The problem is the person that's a big majority in the miliki China not can't access to America, right?

So, maybe this that we can be doing, and this thanks to your initiative and support when the Secretary of

the GANANN, RCEP, if we can, if we can, if we're up for we're uphap, if we're actually upbate asians as a single entity, berataping with China and with US. That's maybe langka that we'll make make

paracusay erssep more because it's more nimbun with developmental to developing economies sentiment. When we had we shouldorin,

carangka, that's the PPP, that's too abate to 22, in front of us, futuristic, but we're not, we can't be able to beaumavit, but, the concern is how to

get-jual it, to the community. Yeah, the most gampangueal it is, with thesis infestation, there food on the table, there's money,

at the other meja. You'll be invest not? I'm get into intellectual property. I know the human rights. I'm not I'm not sure. But I have to becky-kali, that's that kind of, kind of, the kind of, I'm not

given by them. So, I've said, I'm going to say. But if, RSEP, it's more to bea our pulsar our as a good self-being economy I see to look at the most natural intersection of Asia-Tengar with China or America

that is in context transition energy and AI and two-two-dain nimbung because every time if we're going to hearin

people like Johnson-Huang gomong about GPU the last, H-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-20-h, that he's-h-hrex, the pre-existing GPU. That's not-dysampa-can, is the channeling that's 30-kali. Now, this, it's got from-dragal-a-i-terbaru-ne. And I've known, I've been often-one-capacitassizabeth-a-watt-Electrification 3,300 kilowatt hour per

asia Asia, Tengara, just 400,000 megawatt, and terbanking. Electrification is varied. Brunei, Singapore, 9,000,

10,000, Indonesia, 1,000, Malaysia, 5,000. If we're modernization the minimum

1,000, with the partimbing AI and all the thing. This is sometimes I

I'm a bit more than I square the circles. Because we can't even 3,000 megawatt per year. If we can't be just to get electrification 6,000 kilowatt hour per person, we need to

more than 100 years. Sedangcan, in every cop, not in Dubai, like Glasgow, like, that we're going to we're about 2050, 2050, 2000. Not be reconciliation, this, between realism with optimism.

How much? I agree. Comeal again again, this, the issue is the, is the matter of financing, yeah, actually. Now, gomong about,

I'm going to, the transition energy this, I, I, look, If you've got to dole-bred, there's a lot of it's about.

There's a lot of some of the same thing that's not going to be able to be that. Domestic resource mobilization has. There are many things that can do with government, for example,

face-out fossil fuel. For example, for this, this will be able to run-kind-in-perminta-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh. fossil fuel, soing we're going to green. Then, from the revenue, can't use carbon tax. Model model, model,

like, with fiscal. But this, not too, yeah. This, I, I like,

with paper that you've got made the paradox of sustainability. I'm too too, I'm going to use a paradox. Yeah,

yeah, yeah. I, yeah, I, yeah, that there, there's proportionate, that's not proportional, under the country mayju and the country bekembang.

So, there, if we're going to use a stilat, from the government major, also has to have taken care of process this. Yeah, can? What he can do you? Is it? That's the same thing, that's concession loan. He has

too. now, now, is now, now, the ADR's the American Bank, the Pacte

for process this. But, also, they're expand. The problem can be

this, the penabah capital in Breton-Wat's institution that's not even

because if you if you know more money, then U.S. will be getting

the voting rights yeah, so, so, so, so much It's just

point I'm from multilateral to docung the world interming, including Indonesia, in the same biodehyaan that's important. If this is concession loan,

there's D. This we're talking technist, it's, it's not even innovative financing, with blended finance where

the name philanthropist or private sector can be able to make sure. Only with it that you talked about

electrification. Because if you're upheed from government, but if we're going to make uprolet listri, dairies from 80,000 megawatt, to 400,000, so that electrification we're from 3,300 to 6,000 kilowatt. We need $1 trillion. As a bigot.

Yeah, with pencatenation $2,000 per megawatt. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, right. Yeah, right. Yeah, right. If you want to be newable, more than $2 million per megawatt. Multilateralization, is, okay.

But, not just. I see, I'm seeing the real money is this wasta. Precisely. Right, I said, I said. So, yeah, if I got, if I looked at $100 trillion, and $70 trillion, from it's,

And then 70 trillion, by that's over only 17% percent. BlackRock, 11 trillion. Vanguard, 10 trillion. 15% percent of transnational investations that's allotted from 70. Mow, we're not, we're not we, we're not going to be able to be able to be multilateral. Validation is from multilateral.

But I, if I look at multilateralization, J. Mawmauv. Mawmawr. And, this, Trump, it's probably, he can't

get ridro. Okay, that's two million from $20 million. But, syndications maybe

can be to pleset. Yeah, right? Ipev. Mawn't Trump, kind of,

the paradigmat about the about the J. So, I'm thinking, me, If we want, we need to not want,

we need to one, intersection more optimal, and power with talenta. So, if someone who who's in policymaking, to academia, to entrepreneurship, even to politics,

it's like in Singapore, like, in Korea, or like in Korea, South, or like in China, or like, in any other. The two, you, if you, if you want, If you want to make resuscal,

room monotter, you, you have gotting, too, I, yeah, right? Now, the three, how we can how we can

make up number of basri, so that storyteller, that's to where can't

be where I, because rule of law is more okay. And what's about what's about what's I'm going to be able to talk about. Vector we're three that,

SDM, monetary space, fiscal space, and this storytelling. I couldn't agree more. Persolation is to be this, if we want to go going to monging what, what,

what, what, young clad-junker always know, we all know what to do, we just don't know how to get re-elected after we've done it. We know, we're the way.

So we're the way. Persuolation is like that we. We know the sumber money in private sector and multilateral not be able. We need, fiscal framework and support from multilateral

for derisking. Soing that you said you you said, you're saying, you're in 17 perusan, that's, whether black lock,

Fangard, and all the same because if, if, risk on the same, they're because, right now. Mankind, because of the sameat finance is very important,

schema, scheme. Like, this is kind of important. Now, this is the same thing again, back again, the time back again, I'm talking about, the person who, not can substitute

incentive with capatian. Yeah. You want to give tax rate the rate not. So, if.

If, if, not can't, it's, not can't, not can be able. So, the condition that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's again again again again again again

again again again again again people talking about the pastime investment climate that's been much urusance with politic right that yeah the airn't

it's something okay we're being realistic humble by the political reality what can't be able to this constraint this is more than the multi-polarra We're more to make up to make sure

multilateralization, more difficult. I guess we're exposed, maybe 5 to 10 years before. I, see, in cougu, that's more we're making we'll make sure we're doing bilateralization, yeah,

and we're more than competitiveness our, productivity, productivity, it's, And it's the multilateralization is the principle single undertaking. If there's a country that population is just 200,000, he's not yet. It's all set.

Fetotin is to but if we're in the room just two just, you can't get in-jave-a-jewsegu Jain, I'm just tojail-a-a-a-a-jave-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-sus. Yeah, I'll beaqaqaqaqa. Yeah, well, I'maubrik, yeah. Now, that's just to-sikapy to-de-de-pan. How does?

For we can beilateralis okay, scoosur, nantylaetralis and multilateralis that's okay. This is a question is hard because, we're even,

yeah, we're, if we look, capacity, in the negar and the agarer-negare that's not dountung can

with, with bilateral, that's not dountank, because you said, like you say you'll be, if they'll be able to deal

if it's like China, whether or not even with whether or something is one of the latteral because what you said you said you said it's, it's a compoan from people

yeah, comepuan from capital yeah competitive not only competitive advantage but also competitive advantage buttow. Now,

what repot again now is this this is not But now, that's the other, because of the concept comparative advantage to the economic security

can. Yeah. Yeah. We're not about about about about about just in time, but we're just in case

yeah, right, from then, if there's a perang, not there, not, not, not,

we're talking about French shoring. Well, if you've got about economic security, artin' artin'n't have been aligh,

has been alliance, right? Now, in the context this, soft skill, yeah, what name, soft power,

sorry, soft power, for negotiation, to to be very much, it's very important. If it's not, it's going to be very difficult. So, I'm going to believe, I'm sure, like, I'm in Kemp, you have, capacity like that. But this is era,

if this is, I'm in front, get. Foreign policy is, it's, it's, it's, it's, the way economic security has been important, that's the lead, is foreign policy.

like in the agonominess, economy, like the economy of the economy, the conclusion of course of course, but about foreign policy, what he'll do you. Now, we have to seep in the game this, and, juster juster just, if, if, it's still a bit better,

that. Yeah. Yeah. That's, you know, the way the grand, India. This, the, you know, the, you know,

the president of the country, that, Narasie Omni-directional Yeah, they can. They can't be dantsa with Russia, with America, with Ukraine and with Thailand, with with Africa, with Africa, with Africa.

Yeah, right? And it, and it's all along to to the pentinganation national security. Yeah, right. Yeah, right. They can projectsican the penit nationality with

And that's actually that's multidirectional. And that's, there's a lot of because we're not because we've got been in seeing,

the of the global order this, totem pole global order and and

to make the autonomy strategis it, this, this is, by the bigasas in Indonesia, yeah, maybe in a lot of Asia-Tengara.

So, I'm going to look at multipolarity this, we don't need to trypojok or to choose. Yes, Yeah, right?

Yes, we're very to rankul multipality. And this is it's been during 2,000 years we've got to with Buddha,

with Hindu, with colonialists, with Nasrani, Islam, and then, and all right, I'm not even I'm always

I'm going to talk about this is on the other opinion to be related with race, agamac,

ethnicitas, whatever, not more than 10, in 2,000 in Europe to 190 jute,

in duration in the same peace and stability the baseline that's wellieh how we're making up principle the good idea

this is that this is that I'm going to be done by Singapore they've got they've been can rancul but also

the principle superlative that's that that I'm that I'm going to try to how this

This is important Yeah, we're going to bea We've been able to Yeah, we've been able to In fact that you're going to Yeah, he's being Same here, man, in the same thing, man, in the case

Ukraine position's not-jolosia He still can do, Turkey also, Melakoucan Turkey also, that's like that, it's the way that's Now, this may back again again, breaks, maybe this is the

kind of the way to make sure to make sure you, even must be done, because in the situation that's like this, not to be hindered because if we're in black, it's repot for Indonesia. It's dealing with, it's, you are the expert on the Arssep, yeah, because your role was very instrumental. But, but one of the alasance is, we're

I'mangu, there's that's notheral, right, because of Asian asian as single entity, right? So, what you know is I couldn't agree more. It's, it's, that's what, but, but, come back again,

this, this, the answerality, this is. Puttaping, not, that's, to do, that? I, too, yeah, in school, I'm gonna'ajar,

now. It, if, I'm like, I'm gonna do, that, that's every time that's about it's about it's that's about it's a good yeah but if i jagerin

from tioncok jepang korea tawaini indonesia and europea america that cognizin is same, but not know how how it's india one this is jago-bogued yeah yeah that's great yeah, I'm at all right yeah, I'm,

I'm, I'm, I, I, I'm gonnaeck but people who's agaacu-needed but I'm gonna beaqaqaqa and I'm sure yeah, if in Asia, that's the

the most of the only the people, yeah, if you're in Sydney, in London, in Beijing, in Tokyo or in Washington, you want to know about

Asia-Tengara, that's the language Dubebis-Singapur. Because there predispositions that people Singapore is impenipers that people be able to becita but when

Dubes Brunei Dubes Laos Dubos Cambodia Myanmar Thailand Malaysia Indonesia Indonesia to bring in India To be able to be About about Asia or not I look in this Maybe in the case

Tuscott yeah Singapore he's one Sisi they're very good in storytelling yeah But also in the cissue other than they're delivered in the product to other.

So, the, people get to, people get back evidence yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't even get to go

but, right. Right, right. Yeah, this, this is, come back again,

that, I think, me, and I'm can't be the articulation is also

is also from critical thinking. Now, this, back to your AI.

I'm I got get set a bit because I get I'ma. How much is the way?

If we're not yet student, yeah, not there's goodnation, because the answer no other that's more better than chat GPT or Google search not will be able to be

better. Now, this, I, actually, from the long, I even not be thinking that this one day AI will be able to, but I'm going to do an experiment in class is, like, I'm going to be it. I. I, I'm when I'm a question, one of question, not a lot of it, because if you're in a lot,

because if you're going to give you guys, but how it's going to give me a.I. But how to make people can't make sure that's great. That's right. Yeah, yeah, it's, maybe the jobbant's not. So, if we can make jet gip-tip-t, prom-near, that's

that's that's that's when they're in partan that's a bit more research question that's a good, because if you're going to come from idea backus, it's from the contrary to be and people can't be able to beater or not, it's from questionia.

If, because if you're inundang to endgame this, we're just being able to beater, because the question's pinter, right? Yeah, but that, but it's, but it's can't be able to get it. So, so, because, I guess, I've got to make a question.

if you're not pern't repikyre. Now, that's what I'm going to be. Now, that's what I'm going to, yeah, India, Singapore, you told me, he can't get back with one person who's puttoy who's people who don't know about this, me.

Absolutely. Yeah, right, this is bad. I've never kept thinking, that. That's what we're not terbiasa with that, because we're not to give but he's just

give up, but I'm still about the other if we're not newbhaping, it's repot I've got keyakinant

that if we gaspol we'll we'll have storyteller that many like

like like you if you if there no no say $1,000 yeah

like Dede DeBasri so it's barang Indonesia will great very minimum our lifetime, hopefully sooner and then the end of the world because I'm going to go

to go ahead and so much this, this I'm going to be, I'm going to be I'm going to ask the question the last day day, you've been very generous with your time if your time. If I'm

I'm notewis-pulis-pulis-politic, this, this is more gaser to-can-can-can-can-can-can-can-cann. This, if I'm-law, I'm because of greglisah-can-grain-can-grap-tot. Yeah, right? And, and, the senjangan-man-minkat, is more

even more than more even more than the right because of the right because of the right because of the fear and or intimidation but if you're in the if they're going to

if they're going to be based a message of hope but if you're if you have to have credibility but if you're if you're credibility

you Soce, this is more than southe. Right. And we've got to look at America, in India, in Italy. Yeah, not just to talk, in other, in the country. This will be there. Belanda, too. Yeah, no.

So, how's it good? Is it okay? Is it bad? Is it something that... If I was, yeah, I was that I'mobrola-francukuyama, we've talked in one panel, it's been there's two distortions

to have liberalism. The one of the right, the first, that he's said, neoliberalism. Neoliberalism, is, mustn't, make things like

redistribusian model, but, but not there's so, want to bea- comment surate or fair or proportional. The two, he's distortion is woke liberalism.

I dookung, but sometimes over-identification to have identified identitist certain that's kind of, as a can't we can't we can't make them bedacken between the fruits, or fruits versus roots. Roots is liberalism. don't disarmacant fruits

it's been to be roots now this this, if I'm in front I think I'm in the right to be sure by distortion distortion like that I'm concerned you how much

I'm saying I'm sure and I I'm quiteir I'm quiteer this yeah I'm just around not put up solution but

that I can share with you is about you are the question because why yeah this

this you talked on the neoliberalism that globalisation is a lot of prosperity you look at the same. Sumber from conflict is globalisation exactly the opposite from what he was on 90

now people who look at the number cutitapestian if they're interdependent Russia tibatting resorts gas to Europe in Europe calang cabot But although, if you've got to beaugh, if you're not even if you're not even if you're important, from Russia.

So, what I was called as neoliberalism, and all the same, then, it's something that's quiteir kind of people. And then, you're bicarer ony, you know, bickhacken on many, I'm using, I'm using, I'm I'maism. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So,

yeah, issue issue that maybe more people that more more pragmatic, it's not be addressed in there. Sementara,

the right, this, this, this, down with a new narasy, for many people. a COVID,

after COVID, the America, because because of America about the American so much immigrant. Trump came, with something concrete,

he said, look, that, the work of, too, some, people, people,

from, there, right, this, this sentiment that's the movement, populism,

economic nationalism, and, so, so much, even, even when, evenciful, even when they're even when they're not even when, right? Now, this, then, did more than gettapagion because globalization, soing that people then larry, that you've been, if you're going to be able to, if,

if, if, if, if, if, if, the, if they're in the spectrum, to, the can't, He will be called, he'll beaupok He'll be able to make sure. The post-truths, now, situation is I'm sure with what you're talking about social media now. The post-truth

it's then merubahed on the data objective, not again made made relevant, but what relevant is something that can't be something that can't in.

In the context this, this is, is this ishamehurted and this is unique in America in all of the same. In general, yeah?

In general. Yeah. One day, oh, uh, uh, uh, uh,

uh, uh, I'm put on this with, uh, uh, uh,

I'm, um, I'm gonna'c't the name of the time. Um, Friedman, he is,

not Tom Friedman. He is professor at school of government Harvard. So, Jeffrey Frieden. With Jeffrey Frieden. Now, we try to about how much

it was how much the result of election in many of the people, why the group conservative to win, he also

also in America. And he said, the argument is precisely like you said, that, inequality, it's then, it's just a trigger

for the answer of instant. The answer's what? Identity. Identity, economic nationalism, much, much. even, even, sentiment, misalty from

other, much, that's mucle. Now, this, if you're, if you're, I can't givepikekan toquatira in this,

because this isuathing as well as well. Yeah, this is full circle, de. Yeah. Balic to topic of the conversation that awa. Yeah, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, not can't solve if we're not focus to resenguangangue, yeah, yeah, right? Seengangen, uh, can't be a penitement. It's, I mean, uh, kyaan and income, but also centripetality.

B, B, there's the other than the other than the other. This is for the men, time, yeah? Because if we're... Yeah, like, we're... Yeah, like, we're... If we're, what name a lot of... Tugasner, if, if it's... If you're not, that, is how to be given the...

Gerasia, yeah? I just want to say, this, really. People, sometimes, sometimes, judge-Genital, yes, yes, yeah. And, in myrude I, I'm fair, too, to look at

their perspective we're generation that has been a challenge and, have a questionitin'n't and have opportunity and, but if there

there, there, I can be able to bepessan with them, the, the most important is how much how much how much part of the same

the same thing that's because of the same thing that's made by generation we, so this is that maybe can be lesson learn that's good, because this this, this is not going to promote from podcast and game, but

yeah, because they medium-near-hadal this, so, so selection of information, to It's very important. because it's the same thing that's we're just. We're sure sure.

In fact that we're going to learn just. So, so it's difficult to demilha information that wrong with the right.

In the era, where there's so much information that can be prole the um,

the can't learn, to be learning, it's very important. Maybe that's that you want about.

Post-modernism. isme, characteristic more more than the other than what I'm good. And many of the men people are not just just being refacta,

more than you know, you know, that's the word that I mean, that's right. Thank you very, so,

yeah, thank you, very, I'm, thank you, that's, D, D, D, or Katit, Pasri. Thank you very. This is endgame.