Endgame with Gita Wirjawan - Christopher Bennett: Sebuah Keagungan Dalam Penantian

Episode Date: April 27, 2022

Sabar serta adaptif. Tangguh namun rendah hati. Saling terhubung untuk saling menguatkan. Layaknya sifat sebuah pohon, Indonesia pun diberkahi dengan memiliki etos-etos yang bisa jadi modal kita untuk merancang masa depan kita sebagai bangsa yang besar. Christopher Patrick Alexander Bennett adalah asisten profesor di University of British Columbia Kanada dan peneliti di Center for Transdisciplinary and Sustainability Sciences di Institut Pertanian Bogor. Selama lebih dari 30 tahun, Chris mempelajari pembangunan berkelanjutan terutama di bidang kehutanan dan agroforestri dan hubungannya dengan sumber daya air. #Endgame #GitaWirjawan #ChrisBennett ----------------------- Saksikan dalam versi video: https://endgame.id/bennett Pre-Order merchandise resmi Endgame: https://wa.me/6282133365263 Info pendaftaran program Master of Public Policy di SGPP Indonesia: admissions.sgpp.ac.id [e-mail] https://wa.me/628111522504

Hattie from who who like to buy utopia. In 15 minutes, I can say, everyone will be happy, everyone will be able to get what's like. It's all right, utopia, but it's not ever been right.

And, when the abad the 20, we try to utopia, in China, in Russia, unis-soviet, and other, and other things. Try to look how we we're going to be in Nazi, in Europe, all,

uh, menoopia, so yeah. This is NG. Hello, I'm, I've seen I'm often

I want to contribute for Indonesia that in more in 2004-5. It's from where maybe

one of one one of my one public policy. Now, that's the important thing. Sturt to change

is definitely also policies, right. And to deliver it, Taddy, put up technology, need money, and puttow policy.

Now, the problem to do notlis the can't we make actualizations solutions for other permasalhan,

apolaguerg, and the different the not only in the government, but also in the in the world-usaha

and non-profit. Manton Seagiant P.B. Ban Ki-Mun, the President of Singapore, Lishin-Lung, and journalist Richel Meadow, all of the lullusan Jurusan Public Policy. SGPP Indonesia,

School Public Policy in Indonesia with the language Pankanter-Bassie for English, is a new for better

for detail on program and or just to be on the same to be aftar or just consultations on the career with your friends to the different, hubungi SSPP Indonesia through link that's

in description. Now back to the show. Hi, time, we're coming with my name is Chris Bennett. He was a university of British Columbia

in Canada, but also already in Indonesia. Chris, welcome to the show. Thank you for coming. Thank you so much. for inviting me, Giza. It's a pleasure to be here. If not a good way we're going to be in

Indonesia as much as much. With a single of happy. I want to hear the story of you. When you're in where, the bestar in where, and how can't you can't in Indonesia,

that's, well, that's a question panang, but he's, In English, I'm a godogado, I'm a group of

France, Sri, and in Russia, in English, and in France,

and in France. My program I have at the Exeter and in Manchester in English

and in in the field, peniiiiiiatic plant, particularly the disease bohon. And as I've got to have I've done, I'm going to do with I'm going to keep

something of the chita-cita, which is from America Uttar, from Alaska, from Alaska, ... Jailan Kaki, Naikuda, Prao,

BIS, and Trucks, all the whole 1,5 time. Kira, what are the south? The end of what are the south? The end of the Ushuayya,

in Argentina. This is Antarctica not too far from Antarctica. And from as the journey that's all right, I've already I don't want to

back to English. So I'm trying to work in other, and I'marantau. And I've got to And I met with a while a with a person who

said, "'Silacan call me "'If I back to London, "'I'd back to London, "'I'd telephone him. "'He said, "'Cobald, there's "'in' there work in Sumatra.

"'Maw, no? "'I said, yeah, "'mau. "'Cenapent, "'pulupon, I don't know, "'Sumatra in the country "'mana. "'Bah, at the end

"'I'ma-warned, "'and I'm going to becaged "'atat, "'in'' work "'at, "'at, "'and, "'and, "'I... I think in Solok and I'd live in there for five years. But, the first career my career is more as well as what I've been

studied at university. So I'm being in Indonesia because there penickech-inacke. In Solok. In Solok. And the I'm to go to find what the cause of it.

Padishy I've methammed but but it's just about five years in Indonesia. I've got in Indonesia because it's just to-coced with the swasana,

iklimia, orangia and and I'm started with aspects aspects more of economic and anthropology And when I was going to work with

people from University of Harvard. And I made a career change. A career change. This is how much? At that time. When I was still more than I'm still I don't know what, I'm 26-tawn.

Wow. No, the more than 99% of what I've learned I'm from from the world I'm from the world of Indonesia, from the swasana Indonesia and everything. It's, but I'm very much because the people Indonesia, especially the Minang in Sumatarabarad,

and I'm there. But I'm starting to start with aspect of the lingungan, more loas, than the problem of the disease. And at the end, I made a career change. So, it's still, it's still with pohoun,

but more of the power of pohont, but more of the kind of anthropology, sociology, and other, and other, and so again, that's kind of... If you can't know, what's the thing is what is what do you're going to

The disease or the disease or the disease Buzhang from Cenkkei is because of a bacteria. Now, I

have been in one sysing, menmucked that's what. It's a bacteria. Sudamona solanusiniaarm that's

Latin. But I'm gagged in the way in upay in the plant

from the disease that. Because there only one one's one way to make abate the point

to the plant with the end uptoe antibiotic tuntus it's not economic

and not even because antibiotics that are antibiotics that is an antibiotic manusia

so not so, and also as I said I I'm really I'm very

I'm very I'm why people why people, why sub-soucett why

not not want what what I'm what I'm what I say

that I'm that I'm that I start with with aspect

economy anthropology sociology sociology psychology sociology psychology so

my career my career to go to there, and other than with the Rekken of Rekin of University of Harvard. So that's good. But, but still focus on the Pohon.

Chris, you've got long as long as in Indonesia. What's what makes you want to keep you want to stay in here

since five years in Indonesia? I've I'm just 40 years in Indonesia I'm talking

about about 40 years in Indonesia and the most the most the most most most

the most there are there many frontiers here many that don't be caught

many that have been that are and gettowed with with with

with with with of all the other. And as I said today, we're, all

chocot for I'm in here. Makan. Orang, swasana, the area tropis, it,

all of what I'm what I want to. So, that's a lot of luck was involved. Many of

people were involved. Many people were, why I'm long as in India since even, while I'm going to I'm not saying about 40-taught

that's that's not the one of Indonesia, but, but, this is also this is also

the problem that has to do in Indonesia. I think that's the point the

the samebangangany is Because you've got, you've got, you've got to be one or some or a few or a few issues that have to be obadiensual, that's a multi-dimensional. Tojure, we're, when I first came to this,

I was given a name by the people Minang, the Pemarra. Wow. I've been much be learned from the people Indonesia, not the other than it. I feel like I'm really, I'm going to come to help, but I'm going to,

I'm going to, I'm going to, but I'm going to get that. But I'm looking that people, especially, has a certain, that's a sort of that I'm making I'm

optimistic about the country Indonesia, the country Indonesia, and the And I've learned how to be able to be able to be able to be. So, many aspects of psychology that that's interesting to me.

And, can be it can be a bigamonging on the other I've brought and what I've learned from the people of Indonesia and it's because why I still want to Indonesia. In Indonesia.

Where in Indonesia? You've been... Oh, now, now, now, have been... ...and from Sabang to Merokee.

And, it's just in where such. There's... ...cuchup long in Papua too, in Papua, in Papua, in Ache

too. Where? Where? If I can tell, what, what makes that's different, and each of the areas that is same, one of the same one, from the side of the

Bidangue. The great miracle of Indonesia, what that miracle in the Bajaibaheban? Yeah, to ajaibane. Is, in many, where we injure the Bumi Indonesia,

There is there ethos, character Indonesia, from Sabang to Meroke, Kalimantan, Sulawesi, NT, NTB, NADD, Menado, to the Philippines. It is amazing, amazing to me, that we still we're nother, the character of being Indonesian, in Nusantara that's the world.

Incredible. Okay. I've, I, I, I've been, what, see, lecture of you, you know, about local endowments. Bicara, de,

just about that. Thank you. Thank you. For the, for the people of the people, so, so,

Thank you, thank you, we thank you. One of jihad, struggle from I, is to make making sure that all the people, i'm, the jabat, swastah, the importance of the alifan local.

The alifan local about the perolahing local, the world-biasa in Indonesia. I've seen in different locations and has been

written about it and has been litigant that the Aariffan mennucing how how we can control sumber-dai-alam

with a economic, but also that's also that's a land and to make manfart and

it's from the arifan local Not that it's not that only the arifan local that can make Indonesia maju,

of course, but it must have perimbingen, in myriad mybans, perimbangan between the alifan

local, indigenous knowledge manololah sumber data, water, man, and the

land, with the world, with the new modern. That's a even not new, but it's not just not just to comebanked in Indonesia,

this is one of Indonesia's great assets, asset Indonesia, is the perimbangan, is the kyrgy, interi of the arifan local, with the new modern. I want to try to go about And, after this, many people have talked about

on on the climate. You and with me, know, that realism in the development of the climate that's very much I'm very, right? I want to try to see how,

what, what is? For the kids' young in Indonesia, to them can make to take a sip, is it in the hulirn or in hulun that we have to be,

for we can more more more than we're more than we're we're in. An easy and a difficult question at the same time. This is just a difficult, but it's also, yeah. But I want a little as provocator, not provocator politic, but provocator of the people,

but provocator of the people. Marilla, we focus to what what's really for the banks of Indonesia. This is the same thing, it's in Africa, in America, in where, yeah. Lupakkan this,

ma'af, yeah, lupacan carbon, emissi carbon, emissi gas, Ruma-Kacha. It's important, that, yeah. But it's justa me reassuring people at this that emissy carbon

that's very much impunguiting the climate in the world, that's important for them. They're looking how to live. So, I've taken to entry point, the it's a point, titic-massu, which is to carbon,

but not to carbon, that's the sumber-dai-air-air-air-air. Sumber day of air. Because we're we're merlucked water. Now, today, mawere as a set,

not as a chancement. And, that is under existence of penutuping in the area Hulu. So, if you

want to be think from Hulu to Hulu to Hilir, titip I think of my heart of our own data, how much, so that we're

about, we can't make it to be able to use and it and it's enough and quite and quality of it. But for it also, we need we

think, we're making, and makeirkan the unutupan the area hulu by huts, poh, and, and other, and,

and, like, That's a titic, in my opinion, to make sure that there action that there's a connection, but the kind of not with a proban climate global. Sering-kally, people, can't, can't, kind,

of quality of air, or, or, or, with what is to-sikaping, in the hudu-na, so, in-you-a-ad-a-u-it-a-it-a-it-it-a-tud-it-a- that we need this first, that is the most fundamental, which I completely agree with you.

Because it's existential for humanity, but how, how it's the same thing? If we're going to, we need, we need, not only quantity, but quality also. Now, how it's the what we have to keep in the hulunct. Because the realignat in the land,

deforestation, it's too pervasive in the world. In Canada, also, in Brazil, in Indonesia, and in the other. Process of education is, how, Chris? That's the challenge of Gita, yeah. Process of education, yeah. But, not only from the book, this, for this, this has to

there's visualization. I'm myhmat I'm another one of tools,

instrument that we need we need to use more more more

more than tools visual visualizing data and the ,

you know the information and so the people people

also know the community they're at the They know if Bukit Gundul, then, it will be a risk of lonsor

in the musim of the jane, and the risk of the beacarant, but if in the city, we're from one day to the other we don't even to mind so far that, but there has there is an upay visualization. Not in the city,

30-jut-old people from Metropolis, Jakarta, in-bawak to dolew to learn that. So, it, there's a good education, communication with various alat to see the relationship between huloo and hilier, between the problem semalam, which is banjir, or asap, with what is what's

that's being from death. Sorry, Jow from matty, Jow from the Mata Jow from the from the

from, from from the heart, so it is an educational challenge that's a tantanan education, but it's not can't be with a book

just, have with with many mechanisms and visualization from this aspect is very, very important. That's one of the decadal. I want to back to the air,

but I want to try to book this in context that, maybe, can't with a secarra, and, if we're going to the middle of the abat to the 19, when that,

the amount of carbon that was in the UDARA, is about 285, PPM, particles per million per one jute molecules of the other. But this has been up, 450-an. Carbonization is really, and I'm saying that, for it's to doacobonization,

this is to do-carbonization. This has multilayer. Yeah, can? What you're in here is we have to look, we're having, the problem in the air. Yeah, right? Now, this if I'm taking the Spaketan Paris, which we have to make a carbon,

50% in 2030, 25% in the 2040, 25% the last in in 2015. Realistice, is it? If we're just like this, just. There dichotomy, and the kemp that that's the technology

that will be able to do but there also camp that's a policy that can't or to bemenuie aspirations, I'm concerned, the panaghaned Chris, to move to 20,

so, to get to be carbon neutrality, that's how? I think I, I'm also frustrated as a rubek as a lot of what we're getting, so much, I think, we're thinking mitigation. Mitigasy. and every there are a partumann,

like this in Glasgow, there's a lot of, in COP 26. There's who make janie again, yeah, Janji, janie, and it's just, and it's never

to realize it. Padahal, carbonization is still being increased, emissy carbon still macked, whileaupon there's a pertemuan

COP, with pledge and everything, but, but too much focus for mitigation. In fact, I'm not enough we make sure we're making

adaptation. We have to be a way mitigation, it's just. But, we don't we know we know,

because the plumber making ajar we know, the emissue carbon still, I'm going

and then you know, in the past Industrial Revolution that's English, and Europe especially, in Europe,

in China and the other other than China and the other other than the other mitigation. But I'm not. we don't we

make abey adaptation Marilla we make upuue that carbonization it will be neveres

going to be able but just sure a little yeah marilah we make

think about adaptation not just mitigation not just mitigation so that that

that the the of the other one meter on the water that's

the top from the how do they adapt? Because only just making

mitigations it's not true, and the biggation just not just enough

we have to make and to the question The second, apache if we can

adaptation if we can't if we're going to increase, the sun and then

I'm can't. But I think that with technology with innovation, we're

we can make a adaptation. So, so, as a In the conclusion, on the same, there's up there upyigation that,

which is still not yet, marilla more than than more than a aspect of adaptation. Siap, siap, and anticipation if, if the up not 1, 1,1. But, 2, 3, or 4, or 5 degrees or 6 degrees,

existential. And I'm, I'm so, Adaptation, maybe realistic, from mitigation, for some time. And, if I'm going to be about adaptation, this, in context

the open-manusia, right, and, but the open-manusiness to make a perubah this also can be up from some, the process of the

education, or, is it's education, of the culture, social, economy, technology, and other, and other. And then, Chris, if I look at Greta Thunberg, this is Pulsa of Buda, right?

He followers Instagramm is maybe $17,000. But if I'm standing, with Kylie Jenner, follower Instagram is 280, this is dichotomy, right, right, right? It's a kind of gaiyub that's a lot of

this is very peck to the environment that's like it's a co-carbon, the gay of it now, from there,

it's just this is that the generation Z, it's that it can't as much as

what we can't how we can how much so it's two hundred-d-gut-juta followers so that the problem, education, socialization,

and the peckoan to the penitings of the korean, it's massive. And that I'm more sure if this is the imbang, followership. Even if it's, if it's in-bawar. It's about this, it's mennugue optimism, that adaptation that's what we're going in the right direction.

I think the problem is that there consequences of what we're that's what we're saying, there's a one of the other one of the other, to make a partemboan economy, or to move, uh, forlindungan, the linguan, the, it's a false choice.

That's a, it's a false choice. is a choice. So, the economy is the economy, the of the continuance of the of the development, to be it to the people and the people of the linguant.

And the people of the inkungan need invests that were from economy. The two-douanes saling menunge. So, two of the two-dunia have to be upay it,

to becawinged. And I don't with with the people in the in the human who are too

anti-usaha, anti-business, anti-investation. So, the investations, business and economy can,

can't support and the other if, if if the if, if the

or cariwan in the times in the summer comaraw and

because the because the ruusaking and other and other

and other and so we see that we think that the

economy and the perlend the environment it is

it's must it pantow and look as as

they're something that's something that's something that's mutually reinforcing. It's not, is it this capitalism, economic growth, or is it looking after nature and the environment? How come back the two-douan? How come back-and-and-and-a-gouement

that one, it's undergantong to the other. And that is one of the, of the, of the, The challenge this is this did not look that we have to choose one or or the other.

Kylie Jenna or Greta Thorneberg like that. No, I just wish they'd somehow talk to each other and and, and

the, and, uh, and, uh, they don't talk to each other. They're not want to know one, with the other, but there

Mastey, they'll look that what they're that they're to be it's going to be the mission, vis-vis from other. Bring environment and economic growth closer together. They rely upon each other,

and saling menonging. Intersects, between revolution industry, with capitalism, this is that's concept or actuality welfare state. Yeah, right? If we think about welfare state,

yeah, it's not being of humanity, can. This is a panang, but simplistically, well-being, if it's, not only the importance, just the amount of endangue and long, but it's how to we can can be educations to the

people who are you to well-being to be able to for the long-jank this, you're what you have to do so much in

but it's not much, but not and I'm going and I'm looking the example, if I'm talking with

the of the GENRisi Z there, many many who still have been to understand the number of carbon that's been still much of the number of carbon that's been emissing

every time that's how much. So it's so it for they're making action or long to make a decarbonization. And I'm as a part that this is not binari between the of the linguanguang

with the protumbuant And, it's very can be to find a point balance or a titic of the two things. How, Chris? This is a... This is a... This is...

...but I'm going to be observation your observation you. I'm sorry, I'm going to again, that, still too many dichotomy.

Dualism, a genus dualism, but in the world global, and this is that's being bingung Generation Z, yeah, and generation that's going to come, because they're being, they want to pick where? to make to take the environment

or to have a puttumban economy. And, I'll say that we need that we need to that the two – the two-one-shundering. Now, this is a bit abstract,

that I can't, that I'm saying, we need concrete examples. We need concrete examples. Because and come back to

the water for the for the economy that has been

there has there water so the quantity mutton also

good good also or then we can we can we can

consume we can't consume of the industry also. And, water from the environment. It's the second great

commodity, if you will, as a sudda-udera. And... ...tapy, we have, in education, we have to give a example, so that's

anyone can help me to help me to look at we're in the world and the economy that.

And, like I said about, about the source of that's a point, that's a point

where we can see that if if if the water and the let'sardical and conservasical

the air not there to be in the industry that's more be a while will be gaggle too and then

it's not enough so it's a work in progress and I think it's ongoing educational

process but but not in book that we have we can visualizeizati

it so it's because attention span attention span we attention spans, we're dewasa, this,

pendet. So, that, sometimes, people not want to book YouTube or what, or maybe endgame if you have to hear about 45 minutes, yeah? Thank you, because there who still still, still, now, yeah? Amen, amen.

But you've got to think about how to package the message briefly, in the elevator speech, In 1530 minutes, we're giving a person that we have to be that we're going to take our attention that, who will make make sure that

to more to more to more than what we're about what we're about here. This is a lot of the partanation. I was, I was asked about the impact of democracy to be around how democracy that's has been able to,

and to rungerangue the miskinan. If people talk about the commiskinan, it's often we're only just about about miskinan, and chastrable. But, the, that's the one that is the tendrungan

We all, it's for miskin attention and miskin idea. If I'm nother, I'm notherstaking attention and the kind of the kind of india, it's more structurraha, than the humuskinan of chastraan. Because what can make up to make surean that is idea and attention. And, okay, we're going to talk, In the years of 50-an, I've ever talked

with Mr. Emil Salim. Mentioned, there was a one of the world from Belanda who made sure that the bank of water in the utarraining the Uttarra. And this is only for the importance of the Jolla, for sometara. But, in a nationwide, we can think about. But how much the infrastructure

in the Uttar, the Uttar, from the Uttas, from the Uttas, it can beaughan many many benefits for the country and of the country. Tentunner,

from the sysak or air-bersy or the water or where the air that that's down from the gunong through the

land to the long-claman will be made that are built or be or bebentook air tower. It also can't use the salurances

or canal of the important the importance of maritime. Breakwater also can be used for the importance of the land,

pipanisasi, much, much, whether that, gas, the, wind, electric,

fiber optics, and, and, even, transportation, the road, rail, car,

rail, car, and, and if I think, and if I think it's it's a need of the need of investments of a long-pangangue like that, in context PDB, or economy, it's just a small. Well, it's maybe, it's about 10-million dollars,

but if undertaking like that it's done in a few years or a few decades, it could be the solution to your water thesis. How can it could be. It could be. And it could be. And it could be.

And, sometimes, a new technology, a sort of a pedicatant is ahead of its time. So I, before we've got to tell me

that idea this this is in the 20-a- if I didn't say, in 1,950, yeah. And it's not, it's not the time. Maybe, now, 70-tawn, that's the time for that. And, now is the time for that. And, it's probably this

but not only about the perjabat, by the ill-oan, but by all the people also, And this is, this is about the word of our partan we're

about the important thing that's something I believe that is the of democracy

that is inclusivitaz Marilah we're we've been back the idea that that

that's for a infrastructure canal in Jawa it But with a chart that the that the possibility is

it's about by the other people, not only the people, and all the other, because this is for the for the Kulawah can be one of one solution of the of transportation

and sumberda-air-air-air-and-sue. That would be amazing, incredible. and it's not the first time in our in our own, in the world, that an idea, first, diabaica, by the aiding,

it's at first, it's, why not? Why not? Timing is, sometimes, if off timing, yeah,

it's not going. But if the timing on, who's to know? Taw-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-pp-pil-l-pil-tttun, of it's not timing Indonesia, at the time it was to have been bickering

things that more existential than the suburb of water. Wachtu, there's also, many hutsa, many water,

sumber dair, not been a problem, now, this, yeah. And if the idea that

that that that did, disampo today over we we're going to be it's,

if the daywaxe this is it's also there's there's

with the problem ecline because we think how we're making the infrastructure

canal it always are used with water for it for it we have

we have we're the area huloo and penutupan and and

other and the time for that. Okay we back to Sorry, before to the other, I want to talk one

again, maybe a bit provocative. Good. After I think of think, after I think, it's hard to runoffer of climate. Hanyl, only a bit of energy terbaru-can. We've spent gopi, groprole about this before. Yeah, right?

And I'm... I want to... Oh, oh. I know where you're going. Because if I think itung, if we're going to if we're going to mingle energy ter-barucan, whether that's the wind, the energy, sun, hydro, or air,

or even the planet, scale that's not enoughy. Yeah, right? Intuitively, It's so hard for I can see the solution climate change without there's pertimbing nuclear.

Because nuclear, it's the fact that's the most scalable. And if I think statistic the number of the number of commatian based nuclear, that's a per time not more than 4,000 people. But the number of the amount

that's based fossil or emissic carbon, that's about 7-8-juta per-a-one because pollution and everything. Mbuk, we'll start discourses-can, and how, how much, Chris? Thank you, on the question and usurant provocative that. Jujure, in my

because climate change is a something that is a danger it's an existential issue. So, nothing should be off the table. Don't, in my mind I say, we're not going to be able to bechara, not be it, that's not politically correct,

not correct, it's not, not so. With one of the chart, so yes, let's think about nuclear options as well. Together, openly, not it's not, but it's not open, inclusive. And this is not a

from I'm from but there are other than there are thinking that solution nuclear to be hindering the

happen in Japan, in indeed, at Three Mile Island, at Chernobyl, and other, and other,

so that model nuclear not even, that's very very, but to think nuclear modular, that's a small, the scale of the scale

like the nuclear that's in submarine, in the capal, and other, and other, and sogain. Because it can be developed in one fabric, and it's

there are advances in the world to have innovation that's more more than

the scale with the problem with scale and it needs 10, 20, 30 20, 30

time and it's in the technology long, that one. Sedangkan with

scale more small, we can we can anticipate some situation

where there's there's there's technology nuclear to be efficient and so that the limbagh

not one again and if should be making think that so demician lupac

I'm sure that I'm can't make sure how much endow um... limbh

itself so that the limba not before you malap at this might be

going to get in where there there there's there there and then

doolach back and statistics that and that there

can't and bad from nuclear with scale with

scale that is more more less than damped from carbon

so So don't take it off the table, but don't, but don't, uh, and don't, uh, don't, uh, di-cadji, uh, with, with the truth of,

with mellied, and all the time, but, the predacatonal, small-scale nuclear, that's still-de-lacel this, uh, because climate change is existential,

yeah. Don't, because political correctness, we're not going to make them think nuclear. For who's who are men's talking to the showan endgame this, we'll put it to question that nuclear not make-housel can, and as you said, energy terbarreoucan, while it's been in-haping, it will be able to be able,

but closing the gap is hard. So why not? Why not put it on the table? I would not take it off the table. Hello, Treman, thank you, thank you,

release the new from Future Narrator's Merchandise Collection and do-took to us to find ideas the idea of the great narrator, narrator, link of the description

Now back to the show. I'm not want to be inodorkan absolutism in here. But, like you said, the open, for the importance of adaptation, for we can't even to try solutions, and to the minimum, to go about about topic this,

before we discusses-can. Now, we're going to about about about about about about the hudan, I, too, I, too, I like to read the book of Suzanne Simard, who's also from UBC, from Canada.

Also from UBC, but from the U.S.S. But he's not English, but he's gazed from British Columbia. He, is, if, when they're, it's really, as kind of, it's something that's something that has a joy. And I like so, because I'm

because I like, and the plantmen. And how he, he's descriptsikyka the d'amac that's in the of the bottom. And what's

the most about one is about how the importance he is can bring nitrogen and carbon.

This can come with climate change. And how it's discriminative, he can if if the pohont that is the

there is a good with him he will be supplied or to make up nitrogen and carbon compared

of the of the around it. How, Chris? Pengeance that for how we

more to how we're more to hutsan in Indonesia to the end-ugging is, so that's about more in the bottom,

they can be able to be in the back, and so on it. That's the fact that's that is the same we're saying that one, there's a good with the pohont from one genus

to gendatani by Micoriza. Micoriza is a genus It's a genus cindawan, jamur, like that. And there communication between one of the one and the other. And this has long it's been that

the point of the don't even to be it, it's the symbiosis between the of the cendawan. Cendawan nanty-data, gulah from the

the point, while the pohonts, the pond, different minerals, unsur hara from the that, that's

that won't that it's not sometimes there are reforestation reboizasi if

if not if if the not be in the cendawann nia, it will

be a partumban it. It's only, it's just being popular since there's a book doctor that from University of British Columbia, and other than he, not only he, yeah. So, in the upay reboization, the plant, and everything,

have also, we also, we're also, we're still, to be, and to bring jamur that that pohont

and in technology, it's very important so, sometimes, reboization, if not,

the land of the a bit tabur on and and cendawan and

then, and the pond more better so, it's a fact, it's true. So, that not all that we're

important, that's a point, we have to be able to be able to to beaute-to-the-the-the-thead and the pohont to bea-simbiosis with cendawan, that's the mikor-hisa, that has been in Bokor,

the bohghar, can't. How? How? Okay, why not? I, two, three years ago, there's

in the location C4 E-Craft that with IPB and there two pohont

two poh pop-up in there. I don't know why but but one one

cap-pok that was, I'm asked how much, why did be

there? The, I'm, I'm And this is true, I can give the the like the

time. Kedgeran tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tit, tick, tit, tick, tick,

t'p. And I am I'm too. I'm a kidd. I'm a human,

but I'm also hobby, poetry and philosophy, and I'm feel that the

pohont sudarang with kind of with some the blueness rontok, until

have-hiss, I just just mess. I just I don't have HP and I take photo yeah.

It's just maybe one minute, yeah. With attention span pendet, I'll posting that on

YouTube, yeah. But, but it's that the point that the other one underdard

myemad because because the sodarang, that's that's a something that's a certain

that's very much and menacken the attention I'm going to not a reason to make moas

why it I'm sorry I'm too I'm too can't beaxical

it because that is one one of a of a booktie what we we've

about that there communication and that it's it's

like the internet in the it's in it's and it and it's

that community that I think to it's it's it's a genus it's

a genus World Wide Web or what the Web of Life or what. But yes, absolutely. Chris, we're going to go over on the Mesa Dement. Biasan, at the end of the end of the of the end of Indonesia in 2004-5. Pandangan Chris, how about

Indonesia to into 2004-5? In context, whatever, Okay, thank you. I'm I'm very optimist for the future

Indonesia with various but optimist because we're looking to look

if we're to the we're in the future, we have to be in a future. And, and, and, why, I'm optimist? First, I want, one of the impion, one of the one of the time I,

if I, if I didn't have sibb, care of the B, CD, maybe, we're going to make, we'll make, write a book, yeah. Dulu, 20-taan-n-lough, Adam Schwartz, I'm going to write a book Indonesia, A Nation in Waiting.

Yeah, Indonesia, is sure, set, to be a nation, a nation, and all of the other, the title book that that I want to write with with Gita,

Indonesia, a great nation in waiting. Not just a nation, Indonesia is already a nation. Already a growing democracy. But it can be great. Why I'm optimist, I'm cautiously optimistic.

I'm cautiously optimistic. Not too optimistic, not but not optimist. That's because Indonesia has two ethos, two characters, two sifat. One, courage, but the other one is humility. Perimbangan, courage, the barrenia,

and humility to render can how much how much and humility. Kerendahan heart and smanat.

Yeah, because because because I'm optimist for the demand.

Kira, what is what is to do you So I'm sorry that Indonesia follows the rule of law. Just, hat-hati, sometimes, there are too much the rules. And it's more like the law of the rules,

not the rule of the law. So, so there's deregulation, so that there's deregurization The rules that there can be be and can be there

can be there panagakang that's very more sederhaner the second to think I'm not

I'm making some thing that this also this is a character from Indonesia is a lot of people or not

but have more coordination, in my heart my mat, I'm notar sector. There's been there, egosectoralism. And, I'm really,

that I'm really that the people that in Indonesia there's in a but, sometimes,

one sector is, such to talk with the department, It's hard to talk with the department other, even though it was in the boxy-inia, the job of the focus on the fuchs.

So I think that's one of the challenge. And the other, the end of the end of the plan. But, but, hat-hati from the pre-enchanan. There's a part of the German in 2000, in 2000, in 1,870-a-kid, I'm,

says, no plan survives the first encounter with the enemy. It's not possible that one of the present it's a adaptive. Revisi, busy, or it will beckon

it will beckon can't even make-enhanes and innovations and and everything. Plan, perenchanan, perenchant, peru, as a cranker, framework, but not like straight jacket. That's very important. We need to acquie

that we who make a perenchanan we can't know all about the future. And, come back to end game. End game, I'll lup the stilani, but at the end game, it's at the end of the horizon, there are things we don't even know of.

It's, help, it's termack, but that's one of say goyang, the motto, from end game, that's the jaw-mata-mendang, But more than more than we don't know. We have to be redacted, we have to be able to know all. So, and this I'm not even though, and this I'm not sure,

I'm not sure in terms of Indonesia, but there's a philosophy of poisee from Nazir Od Tussi. From 800 years ago, philosophy Islam, who said, let's just let's just we're just to make themhameh, but I'll be

plant-plank, and I think this is one of one of a peringatant for Indonesia to be a great Indonesia. He who knows and knows that he knows that he knows,

can make the steed Kudanya, of his intelligence, leap over the vault of heaven. He who does not know, but knows that he doesn't know, can bring his lame little donkey to the destination nonetheless. But he who does not know and does not know that he does not know is for ever. forever stuck in double ignorance. Wow. I think it's pretty self-explanatory.

I don't know. Right. So I'm optimistic going forward to 2045 for Indonesia. With that's a spakot. This, I'm, there's a few there's about about going to be this. This, if I look at this, with this philosophy.

But if I'm looking at, what I'm taking from the from the other than we're going to be able to to not back-upon-and-and-and-a- not back-and-so-and and I'm not back-ed, but also revisions

must-nest it must be kindle with the penetawen. Yeah, right? And, But, the funny, if I see at the end up here this, the Penedephanion technology, or the technology, science,

that's not did damping with philosophic. Like what we've seen in the era Enlightenment, the abat 17 and 18. Even, it's been the 3,000 years of the time. All the great philosophers, Aristotle, Socrates, Pythagoras, Tagalogous, which where

their who are kind of with abstracts, it can't be able to be with scientific discoveries. Sorry, this is a bit philosophical, Chris, but it's very, if we're to the front to make a different science

without philosophy or philosoph. Because there is risk there's not any of the bigiakshanaan in application or for the power. How much? How, Chris? I agree. I don't be it's not

that's about the development of the of the people, the people, the development, economy, and the environment, should be in-cuit-sertaked

and, by reflexes of philosophy. It's just, it will be able to make up to care of our thinking of our own to the different. I think that's very, I'm very that I'm going to

that's in Jakarta, there's philosophy cafe and a sort of, yeah, philosophy is important and reflexes about

introspection and give with the people implications philosophy to have the

path that we and not one one than one than one than other

there there there there there there there there

there the of the planarioning, only be able to be able to beacquia if they're in with reflexy or penguenaan, of the use of philosophy. I personally believe that.

It's not always gampang to be that to be it, but philosophy has a very important role to play here. No question about that. It had an important role

to play 2,000 years ago, dewa this lebeep and things like Israel. Don't even be able to beaacan. There's also, sorry, Chris, this is a cabangna's many. There's a chenbrungan in manusia, the last, after in policy-making bodies, which, where they're,

who, who, underdata, amnesia-segare. And they're under from, the cognitive immunity to make a facta from fixie. Fixing how, we can't be able to be busa

to try to make-obati this, but how we can make we can't fix for the or the abatn't, we're not to beerita from amnesia and also, and also,

cognitive immunity. Baha'aughan immunity is very very. Cognitive immunity is very very bad. Yes. The saddara is very, very important.

If you want to know to where we, this, there has there, there is there some of

other people, and, uh, and all that's all that's all that you don't

know and make about the history, the world, and the history is terribly terribly important.

When I was I'm a school, and I'm not talk about sejara. It's finished. No.

Now, now, I see that to to more to more more, we're

to not even there cognitive immunity about history. And also

be could in in our think we we're not what we

what we're what I'll give one of the example of concrete, haty-haty from who's who's going to buy utopia. Utopia can be, I don't believe, although I'm optimistic, but I'm optimistic about a second-best world.

I don't believe we will ever go to utopia. Utopia is kind of scary. And, when the abad the 20, we try to utopia, in China, in Russia, Union Soviet and other and the other and soaghan. Try to look how we're under it. Or in Nazi, in Europe, like that, all,

men's juotopia, like that, yeah. I'd be happy if the world went to a second best world. Beware of the first best world of the utopia. And, the matter with janj utopia, this with attention to be at least, that utopia, in 15 minutes, I can say, everyone will be happy,

and everyone will be able to care, and get what's like it. It's all set, utopia, but that's not ever been and that, back to point from from the point from

we have to we have to to make sure the history, to make hindering the utopia that. Revolutions, in the

of the most they're then I think to step-by-step processes to the from to the

utopia. Sejara mennuched that there there's one of a big one that's that's a big disaster. Catastrophic scenario,

like the war of the first and the two, it's often is called as black swan. I disagree. They're actually white swans. They're actually white swans. They're,

event that's can be hindered. And we can anticipate This day, this is the prospect of the of the catastrophe that's not-inquent, especially in context of the climate. The last, Chris,

we can't bathe in abstracting just, after the other, these young people who are going to be in the blockchain. It's not my cup of tea, it's not your cup of tea. But, maybe, don't, if we're daigant concept like that. For how we can tokenization air.

How we can tokenization pohone? How we can tokenization jarring nicoriza? So, whatever we've been for this

for the of the untingalam. How, Chris? A great nation and waiting. Why not? It's never. been tried before. Let's wild, let's wild blockchaining non-fundable tokens. Why not?

There's still there that has done it. I don't know mathematics, algorithm, and everything from crypto-cyber and the money but why not this

this is, it's, with, with, water, can, it's a nature-based solution,

a nature-based solution. nature-based solution, where nature, nature, alam, can be hibunked with the frontier, rintisan of kowangan. Why not?

It's never been done. By anybody, anywhere, as I know I. Why not Indonesia explore this? Indonesia is in a great place. Indonesia has a real place. Indonesia has had almoan, have a he had the heconomies, monetary, and

everything that can't be blockchain, cryptocurrency, and non-fundrable tokens, and other, and sobagania, and so on the right-canan. Why not Indonesia's the banked it? Why not? Fascinating. Thank you, Chris. Thank you, thank you,

and thank you, and thank you, endgame. Same, same. Well, that's, that's our friend Indonesianis, we're Chris Bennett. Thank you. This is endgame.