Endgame with Gita Wirjawan - Elbegdorj Tsakhia: Sandwiched Between Russia and China

Episode Date: July 11, 2024

No country is more fitting to discuss peace, diplomacy, and multilateralism than Mongolia. Despite being geographically and ideologically positioned between Russia and China, Mongolia has the means to stand up for itself and determine its own fate. Endgame proudly presents Mongolia’s former President and Prime Minister, Elbegdorj Tsakhia. He was a central figure in the Mongolian Revolution of 1990—a revolution that transformed the country from communism to democracy without breaking a single window or shedding a single drop of blood. In this conversation, President Elbegdorj and Gita cover a wide range of topics: how Mongolia maintains peace with its neighbors, why he believes that "war is no longer a tool to solve problems between countries," and the three main reasons behind the current global turmoil. #Endgame #GitaWirjawan #ElbegdorjTsakhia ---------------------- Thank you to The Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs at Harvard Kennedy School for providing support for this episode. Visit the link below to know more about research, ideas, and leadership programs for a more peaceful world: https://www.belfercenter.org/ ---------------------- About the Host: Gita Wirjawan is an Indonesian entrepreneur, educator, and Honorary Professor of Politics and International Relations at the School of Politics and International Relations, University of Nottingham. He is also a visiting scholar at The Shorenstein Asia-Pacific Research Center (APARC) at Stanford University (2022—2024) and a fellow at Harvard Kennedy School's Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs. ------------------ Earn a Master of Public Policy degree and be Indonesia's future narrator. More info: [e-mail] https://admissions.sgpp.ac.id https://wa.me/628111522504 Visit and subscribe:  @SGPPIndonesia   @Endgame_Clips  ----------------------

World today suffering from three big things. One is American complacency. Second is Chinese expansion. Third is... President Elbegdorch. President Elbegdorge. President Elbegdorch. The former president of Mongolia.

Prime Minister in 1998, and again from 2004 to 2006. And in 1989, at the age of 26, President Elbegdorch became an... early leader of Mongolia's underground democracy movement. At very great personal risk, he and other activists helped organize demonstrations and worker strikes that ultimately forced the ruling Politburo to resign in 1980, peacefully ending 70 years of communism. In December 10th, 1988, we had that big demonstration.

I was moderator of the demonstration, handing microphone and paper and saying that we lived under silence for long. how we have to take action. How was the transition in terms of yourself and all the other guys that were involved in the government? They didn't have any experience in governing, right? Was it difficult? Yes. Every day there is one new freedom, one new door is opening.

Almost miracle, you know. We did not shatter single window, we did not shed a single drop of blood. And while you were president, you brought about fantastic economic growth. 17% for you. 17%. How? What's your secret recipe? President Zelensky says a fierce battle is underway in the Harkiv region after Russia launched a surprise attack.

Russia has launched a new ground offensive on the country's northeastern border, advancing about one kilometer inside Ukraine. This world has no place for war. We had enough. Why we should have war? Why Mr. Putin should have this war? I met many times President Putin. I talked with him. I shared tea with him and I know his mindset.

What's happening in Ukraine, I think that's the very bad scenario for Putin. a really bad, it really worst this scenario. Hi friends and fellows. Welcome to this special series of conversations involving personalities coming from a number of campuses

including Stanford University. The purpose of the series is really to unleash thought-provoking ideas that I think would be of tremendous value to you. I want to thank you for your support so far and welcome to the special series. Hi friends, today we're honored

to be visited by the former Prime Minister and President of Mongolia, President Elbegdorj Satya. Mr. President, thank you so much for gracing our show. As always, I like to ask many questions, but the first one with respect to how you grew up. You grew up in a western part of Mongolia. Yes. Tell us. You know, Mongolia was a big country. is still 18th largest country by the landmass, and we have four very distinct features,

Altai Mountains, and northern part is part of Siberia, and we have big plain, very big, and also Gobi area. And I was born in Altai Mountains, in the western side of Mongolia. I was born in a Hurtzman family, and I am one of the eight children of first man and I'm the youngest and all of them are boys, yeah, eight boys and I'm number eight. And how is your educational experience, you know, while you were a child? Educational experience, you know, it starts from the childhood. When you live with your mom and dad, we call gear in one room like apartment. dwelling and ate your children and of course some of the adult children usually go to schools

after that to army to study abroad maybe and we started our education early from the early childhood and you know hurting our herd during that time hurtsmen means mainly my father had parents had sheep and for the Kashmir and for the Kashmir and we have some goats. And also for milking, we need some cows, and you have to have around 20 cows. Also for riding, you have to have horses, around 20 or 30 horses, at least.

And in order to move from one place to other place, you have to have camels. In Mongolia, we have two comb camel, you know. And we move from one place to other place. And that was really something interesting. Every movement, every new settlement when you move to the fresh grass area, everything was new, everything was kind of the adventure. But I started during that time, socialist system, that healthcare system and also educational system was quite good. and also that infrastructure that reached to most of the even smallest units of administrative center.

There were some small school and some small hospital. And I started my first grade schooling at 8 years old. Would have been more influential, your mom or your dad? Usually, yeah, both of course, both of them. But my mom is more influential. She stays at home. My dad usually hurts the herd, cattle, and you have to go 10 or 20 kilometers. And sometimes you have to, with your tent, maybe spend seven days or months in fresh grasses and, you know, grazing your herd. And you usually belong to your mom. And mom usually take care of everything. And the one thing was really interesting, you know, We were so removed from one, each other, one family. I hardly see other people.

When I was child and my mom used to say that when Elbegdorch was at a girl, he usually runs out and someone is coming there, horseman or someone is there, and I usually call them like this, hey, come on, come on. And when they come, you know, when they exchange their talk, that was so interesting for me. And we were very close to mom. Also, isolated means my mom, for example, from milk. She can make around 15 or 16 types of dairy products.

Only one milk. Milk, from milk, you can make yogurt. When you boil it, you can make, we call it horse. and when you boil it and after that you can get the cheese. Also, when you put into places and mix that and you can get butter, and even you can get some kind of alcohol, you know. Fermented. Fermented.

From milk, fermented milk. And that's really interesting. And there were no shops. No place to go, no restaurants, nothing. Just one girl and you and your heart. That's it. My mother used to sue every cloths, everything. My father used to make some kind of shoes for their children.

And that's it, yeah. In a warmer time, sometimes we didn't use shoe and barefoot you can go. That was sad. Warm for you, but not for me. It's still very cold. Yeah. I mean, summertime in Mongolia, it's like in the... In Mongolia, we have that four distinct seasonal climate.

Also, other thing I like my country, of course, that landscape is really fantastic. There is no fences if you go 100 kilometers ride. You're just off-road. You can camp there. And Hurtzman's local people are very friendly. Other thing, of course, that, you know, in the world we have four-seasonal climate. Mongolia has that four-sharp seasonal climate. That's really great.

When you have winter, that's the very cold three-month winter. After that, when you get spring, everything is born, newly, you know, burgeoning and everything coming into life. That's really nice when you experience. that. After that three months, very nice autumn. Ah, no. Yeah. And those things go like each season is three months. That's nice. Summer, yeah. Three months summer. After three months summer, after three months summer, you have autumn. But your winter is really, really cold. Even colder in Siberia. People say that, but not cold in Siberia, but Mongolia's isolated means Mongolia is dry.

We don't have ocean access to the sea access, and because of that, Mongolia is circled by two giant countries. Yeah, Russia and China and northeast. And because of that, that's very dry. When you get winter in Mongolia around 25, minus 30, I used to live in Massachusetts, for example, while I studied at Harvard. That's nothing. When in Boston, you know, winter gets really cold. If you see that maybe minus five Celsius, maybe, that's equal to almost to Mongolian 30 minus, you know.

Bowen chilling. But in Mongolia, because of the dryness, that winter is not going through your body. It's like kissing your cheeks and, you know. Go white snow and you enjoy that and blue sky. If you go out of the city, of course, in a city, in lately in cities there are pollution, everything, bad things. But when you go to the countryside, when you live in a countryside, very fresh air, usually those Hartsmen enjoy winter more than any other season. Because you have that, hey, you know, hurts will not go. far to grades just around the tent and places.

And you all all prepared a lot of meat, you know. During winter, then Mongolia becomes one big refrigerator. You know, under snow, you can put all those meats and that's frozen. And that will continue three to five months. And you can eat that fat meat and enjoy. And this winter is more relaxed. Of course, yeah, spring is more... Comfortable.

Yeah. There is this perception that it's... More demanding. There's a perception that it's very, very cold. To the point, people are discouraged from visiting Mongolia. That's a really wrong one. Yeah. Just three months.

Winter, when that comes cold, it's January, February, maybe half of the December, maybe that 45 days, We call it 9-9.99 means 49. And first 9 it will become like this. And they're saying every 9 days has its own features even yet. You know, you studied in Ukraine and then you studied in the U.S. How do you contrast and compare the two, you know.

I was lucky. I was lucky. Yeah. Yeah. During my study in Soviet Union, there was two superpower, of course, the United States of America and Soviet Union. And I studied in Soviet Union actually in Ukraine today's in a most western city called Ilwif. And I studied there for five years. And during that, and that time was very interesting. During that year, when I'm about to go to Soviet Union, Brezhnev died. That was a big tragedy.

But for us, it was good. You know, one day we off, you know, we sit at home and watching TV. After that, we found out that Chernenko or Andrapo died, and he became the Secretary General. Andropov died after that Chernenko also, passed away. Wow. that was something. Why those Soviet leaders

are dying? After that, Mr. Gorbacheau came. Of course, everything changed. During that time, I was in Soviet Union. And I was actually in cadet, in military academy and studying. And that was under discipline.

You cannot go from your places dramatically or materially, except maybe in Sundays when you get permission. And I just every morning around today we call in Russian kiosk, very small place to go by newspaper and other journals. And that was very interesting, very critical things published, first published about the Stalin, what happened, about repression, all those things. That was really eye-opening experience.

And you played a very big role in transforming. the country from a communist regime to a democratic regime in 1991, right? Talk about that. Yeah. You know that timing was right and also place was right. I graduated in 1988. It was just before the dissolution of Soviet Union. Back then you were still a journalist.

A journalist. And I graduated and came to the military newspaper. We had military newspaper and I was a reporter there. And during that time, we found out that was young people. We had energy. We saw there are some big changes happening in Soviet Union. Also, as I studied in Ukraine, in Western Ukraine, closer to Poland, there were some movement.

We know that solidarity or something, some movement there against that establishment. There are some happening some big changes. When we came back to Mongolia, to my country, everything was just smooth and no changes, nothing happening. And we were very critical. And we started our kind of talk with friends. We call it kitchen talk, you know. You can sit in a kitchen, three, four, five of us,

and just whispering to each other. And what was happening, what we need to do. And okay. It's like the French Revolution. Yes, yes. Same thing. And we say, we need to act. How are we going to act? Most importantly, we need to know, we need to act. Our action should be seen. That was our first goal. After that, they may persecute us. They may jail us or execute or something might happen to us. It doesn't matter. When you got more purpose in your life, more than bigger than life, purpose, those small things, you know, jailing or going persecuted, all those things became small, small. And in the late of 1989, we had meetings and there were the big conference and we tried to

make that conference, even management of that conference into our hands. We don't need to have Presidium, you know, sitting those big guys coming from Politbu and giving big speech. We don't want to do that. That was one of our initiatives. We want to just open discussion. What we need to do in Mongolia? What is not should happen? Why it shouldn't, why it's not happening in my country?

That was first kind of a rebellion. And we got lack-minded young people. And after that, we decided let's establish. some kind of movement. And movement should be called some word there should be, and we found democracy, democratic. It should be

different movement than the communist or other. It should be democratic movement. And we established that democratic movement and after that, we intentionally chose that date December 10, 1989. December 10th

means international human rights state. I see. And we choose that date and we said, you know, Mongolia is the member of the United Nations. Mongolia accepted that human rights fact, you know, all those things we joined and we are the part of that. We have to celebrate these things. And, you know, when you see that human rights fact, all those things written and people should express there. We use freely and they are free to.

freedom of assembly, freedom of speech, all those things should be in my country. Why it's not there? And that was our first thing. In December 10, in 1989, we had that big demonstration. I was moderator of the demonstration, handing microphone and paper and saying that we lived under silence for long. Now we have to take action. We are demanding these 13 things from our Politburo and multi-party system, democratic elections, private property, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion, all those things which were prohibited by our constitution, we demanded. We just gave them one week.

Okay, after one week, today is Sunday. If you until next Sunday, if you don't give positive answers. to us, you know, if you don't meet with us, we're going to have second demonstration. Of course, they didn't give anything. They just pushed their propaganda machine against us, calling rubble-rousers, you know, these bad guys, there were some bad holligans, you know, young people are calling and calling for destroying our socialist state and everything, and we will take care of them. That was the first reaction.

When we got in the second morning Sunday demonstration, more than 5,000 people. Third, we got 10,000 people. Fourth, we got almost 40,000. 50,000. In March, closer to March, we got 100,000 people. In Mongolia, you know, we have less population, 2 million people during that time. 700 million lived in our capital city. out of 700, 100,000 people already in streets.

When our people who are in the power, when they realized that was too late, they felt that their country no longer in their control. And they forced to sit with us negotiate. And through that negotiation, actually, in Mongolia, one thing happened, really great thing. That's almost, almost miracle. You know, we did not shed a single window.

We did not shed single drop of blood. You know, what happened in June or 1989 in Tenanymin Square? We all know in November, 1989, in Romania, in others, you know, excluding Chavissela and wife and all those. things, but we didn't have any violence. But many reasons was we were just demanding that change through by peaceful means. We said we have only Mike and we have only paper and we want to discuss with you how to handle our situation, how to manage our society, our country from now to the future. Let's talk about that. How about a multi-party system? And we even did not corner that

communist party. We said, you're going to be one of the parties. You are much powerful. You know, Mongolia was second communist country after Russia. In 1921, communism, that Bolshevik revolution that came in Mongolia in 1920s, most of the socialist countries became socialist after World War II. Mongolia was already established. Even before China. Even before China, 1949, before China, all the way before China,

just after Russia. When they capitulated to the wishes of the people, what do you think would have made it peaceful? What would have made the transition peaceful without any drop of blood? Do you think would you attribute that to

maybe the evolution of the DNA of the Mongolian people. Because people tend to think of Mongolians as really fears and, you know, heart-biting people and all that, right? Also freedom-loving. Freedom-loving. And I think one reason was when we had that demonstrations, that demands, they really didn't answer to that. And they resist to it, of course. But after that we had a big hungry strike in our main square. It means that hunger strike means you cannot go endless, you know.

People will die by hunger strike. Just you will not after 24 hours, 48 hours and 72 hours. When you have that big hungry strike, all those people heard about that kind of the way of the fighting way of the political disobedience, you know, that was really something. That was wake up called for all our Mongolia. Why those guys have a hunger strike and all those media propaganda, of course, they're using in a negative way, but when people came there, it's just guys, young guys demanding by their life, just change for us, for Mongolia, for good. And, and They're forced to solve that problem.

If they're not making some kind of concession, there will be some young people will lose, starting losing their lives. And that's going to be big, big, big, might bring big problem to the people who are in the power. And during that, I mean, a third day, they announced it, a resignation of the Politburo. You know, Politburo in communist country,

it was that nine people or 11 people, most powerful people, they resigned. Whole Politburo. A resignation of Politburo was like a pinnacle of the revolution. That was the something, you know, resignation or something, you know, your king or something like that. And that's it. After that, they forced to sit us. And after that, we had that people's deputy meetings. And through that, we made first exchange.

in our constitution. Let's allow multi-party system. Let's allow that privatization. Let's allow people to talk, you know, openly talk, openly express their views. Let's allow people's belief, you know, for their religion. Let's allow you can pray for your God.

Mongolia is mostly Buddhist country. All those things happen. Every day there is one new freedom. One new door is opening. Wow. And that happened in Mongolia. During that time, especially during that time, there was a Soviet Union was intact. Soviet Union actually stayed until December 1991.

Those things in my country happening in the beginning of the 1990. And Soviet troops were there. In Mongolia, we had, in Mongolia, in 1960s, when Soviet Union and also China had a very, Big friction between them and that Soviet troops came to Mongolia and around 100,000. That was big contingent. I think after Afghanistan, Mongolian contingent of Soviet troops were the one of the largest one. And they didn't do anything. They didn't do anything.

But we demanded. These are the domestic things. We just brought our demands to the Soviet ambassador in Lombat. We had that our paper. Don't do anything. Don't use any force against us. We know you guys used forces in 1950s, in 1960s, in Eastern Europe, in Hungary, in Czechoslovakia. We don't want to do that.

But even we want your troops should leave Mongolia. And we demanded you have to live from Mongolia. And they started living in 1990. Amazing. How was the transition in terms of, yourself and all the other guys that were involved in the government, they didn't have any experience in governing, right? Was it difficult to transition into the new role?

Yeah, you know, yeah, that was really, during that time, 70 years, Mongolia was one of the closed country. After when we had that big changes happening in my country, we became one of the connected countries. In 1990, when there was dissolution, of Soviet Union, we got a lot of friends already there. You know, in June, first big high-level visit from the Western world, that was the American Secretary of the state coming to Mongolia, came to Mongolia.

That was until that June months, Mongolians had that seven months struggle just between each other. How to find that consensus, how to solve that problem. means that why Mongolian transition, not every transition resulted in democracy, but why Mongolian transition resulted in democracy means that was people's own. And we learned by doing. Every day we saw some new window and there were some new reporters coming from Beijing to Mongolia to report. All those things, what's happening in Mongolia. That was one of the most watched, most recent reporters, you know.

Cheng's Han, country of Chengxan is awakening, you know, freedom, something is happening in Mongolia. And Mongolia became democratic. All those things were big news outside of the country. And Japan paying attention to this. America is paying and Europeans paying attention. And they knew that when there was a lot of. Soviet Union no longer taking care of Mongolia, that country, that economy going to be in a very difficult situation, and they already formed donor countries meeting.

And Asian Development Bank accepted us, Mongolia as their member, and World Bank accepted as their member, and the International Monetary Fund already bringing their first tranche of the of help, you know. It's like North Korea coming into, within the seven months, becoming the open country. Imagine today's North Korea, within seven or nine months, becoming just normal open country. That happened in Mongolia in 1990. You took a break between being a prime minister and being the president. Yes. To go to school and all that.

And while you were president, you brought about fantastic economic growth. 17% per year. 17%. How? What's your secret recipe? Yeah. That was fastest growing economy in the world.

When I was invited to the Amampur, to the CNN, even I didn't know that when Ammanpur mentioned, you know, Mr. President, your country is fast, fastest growing economy in the world, 17%. That was eye-opening. I know my country growing maybe 10-something percent, but not the fastest growing. There were two, three things happened.

Of course, governance issue. You know, I was elected president from Democratic camp first time. Presidency in Mongolia is very new thing. We established presidency in our constitution since 1991. And I became the fourth president of Mongolia to be elected from the democratic camp. And I usually say that

when you are in the streets fighting for freedom, you are calling for big change. You are calling dismantling the bureaucratic system. You know, you are calling for the serving the people. While you are in office, you have to do something. You have to

continue your call. You should not change when you became president. Oh, now I'm president. I'm your boss. No, no, no. You are no, no boss. You are just one of the Mongols who have that title.

You have maybe bigger audience to serve. That's it. And when I entered after my taking out to my room, it was like this big room. And I said, Hey, guys, I'm going to make from this room like a citizen hall. I'm not going to sit in this room. I'm going to sit in a smaller room.

Let's make it citizen hall. You know, that was big news for the people, for the media. What do you mean, citizens, you mean that, you know, when we brought some draft of law to our parliament or I'm going to sign some decree, before that we will introduce it to our people. to our people whose interest in there maybe. If you are talking about some segment of the people, they should come and they should discuss, is it serving their interest or president interest, political interest.

And they should have place. Let's repurbish this room and make it citizen hall. Things happen from a small thing. During that in Mongolia there was no citizen hall. There were more jails than citizen halls in Mongolia. And after that, just within one year, we found out in Mongolia, throughout Mongolia, we got 600 citizen halls. People were very happy. Even in a small settlement, even in a small village, they got citizen hall.

If there were governor running that village, that city, governor should introduce their decision to the citizen hall. And they had that calendar to meet the citizens. That was, that will come to you. And that, that just started that. After that, we moved most of the services to the shopping mall. We said, why this service, you know, issuing the driver license or extending your marriage license or something, you know, giving the license for the establishing a restaurant, opening a restaurant, or starting some kind of the construction business.

Why some bureaucrat or sometimes layered burqrat, one guy after that, that big one, and sitting there three months, three years, you know. That should be issued by like a butter and bread in a shopping mall. It should go there. And we just rented the space there in the shopping mall. And we put in order to be, to be look good and then we put if that green paper, if you are green paper things,

or you want that service, that's just within one hour. That will. Please, please wait. Just five minutes, you have this. People will remiss that. Ah, you are thinking, you are asking for this. Ah, that's yellow paper. It will take only 24 hours one day.

Ah, this is red. it will take seven days like that and when after that when we ask it people it's revolutionary you have to bring that you have to do that

when you are as a Democrat when you are freedom fighter you are talking for the people if you are there you have to do that after that when I became president our corruption index was 120

every year that international yeah that organization makes that corruption index, transparency international, and 120, after five years, I introduced a lot of laws, you know, in order to change that 70 years of, you know, 70 years of under communism, all those mindset, all those legislature, all those laws, regulations, and after that train your people and tell them to serve, not the, to serve your people, not the power.

That's not that rhetoric. You have to do that in everything. After that, 120 that dropped to 70. Every year, Mongolian, you know, in terms of the index of corruption, improved, dropped two digit. And that means attracted a lot of new investments. And people saw in Mongolia, wow. And Mongolian competitive index actually improving. All those indexes are improving.

And that was really, really good news. And also just before entering my office that coincided, we opened in Mongolia one of the biggest copper mining. That was opened by other company. And after that, that copper mining giant eriotinto came to Mongolia and they agreed to invest. And we signed that agreement. Also that, of course, changed a lot. And they see that Mongolia is one of the country we can invest.

Still, Mongolia is one of the 10th richest country by mineral wealth in the world, natural resources. Also, very close to the biggest market in the world, which is China. We have with China land border, 2,900 miles land border. 4,700 kilometers. 4,700. Wow, you exactly know that. 2,900 kilometers. That's long border.

Just next to our step, doorstep, that big market. Of course, because of politics And in Mongolia, just one thing I would like to say in this regard You know, we have two neighbors One neighbor is that big market, big opportunity Other neighbor is Russia Russian economy also, you know,

founded also operated by mainly by the national resources Right. Means Russia sees Mongolia as their competitor. Russia wants to export their coal or cooking coal, high-quality coal to China, their copper to China, or their other mineral oars to China. And Mongolia wants to do that. And in order to bring more things from Russia, they usually put some kind of obstacles, you know, through their lobby and through their, you know, troll factories, through their politicians who,

claiming, you know, Russian interest. And usually they claim, we are for Mongolia, but behind there are always Russian interest. And they put a lot of obstacles, a lot of things, you know. I think democracy is weak. Democracy is sometimes very difficult system, comparing with others. Why those, even those enemies of democracy,

can use that tools, tool of elections. They can be elected. They can be very populist politicians. And they can be part of the decision-making. They can become the minister. They can become prime minister, even president. And they can stop those lobby for those big interests, you know. Not the foreign enemies is big threat to Mongolia.

but internal, local politicians who are supporting others' interest. That's the big obstacle in Mongolia. Actually, that happened. And after that big, high growth and decline, and long, long decline. How do you think Mongolia has been able to survive peacefully being sandwiched by two giant? that have completely different ideologies from your democratic, you know, system. Thank you. You know, one thing now we learned when you are, some people ask that we, I usually say that, you know, we used to exist next to each other for centuries.

Yes. I may say for millennia. Yes. You know, because of Mongolia, because of us, maybe Chinese built that. Great Wall, which extends for 6,000 kilometers, something like that, Chinese Great Wall. Because of us, Russians, Russia was in 14th century, very small and, you know, fractured principalities, Russia United, Russia United as a big land empire. And means that after that we found out that, Mongolian,

became a small country and we have our own interest. And after one time in the 20th century, Mongolia became the satellite country Soviet Union. I tried to copy other country. But it was maybe that was a necessary way. I think I don't blame that. But I blame something there that there happened. We lost, for example, one of seven adult men were killed during the Stalinist.

purge. That's the big massacre. More than 700 Buddhist temples were destroyed to the ash. Even they did not left single boy or girl

from the golden lineage who is related with the Jenghisan lineage, Jenghisan family, that famous Hans family. They were all the way you know by generation, generation and born we knew that but during that and they registered everyone and they exterminated

that was the bigger revenge i think and that was not good good way and but in 1990 there were the kind of soul searching purpose searching how we survive we never choose our neighbors we're gonna be yeah circled by these two countries and my assumption as one of the leaders in that movement, democratic movement, I told to my people, we should be different, means that we should have different political system. If China has a communist system, communist ideology, one-party system, we're going to have multi-party system. If China has that economy, we're going to have that marked, you know, economy. If Russia has one main system, of the quadratic system,

we're going to have more democratic system. Through that, we will connect with the rest of the world. That will give us, you know, essence and lifeline to survive. And because of that, our way of life is very different.

Our philosophy of our development is very different. If in China, center is powerful, then country is going to be stable and more perspiration. Maybe Russia's same thing. But in Mongolia,

if our people are powerful, if you guys have more right, you're going to be more creative. Then Mongolia is going to be more creative. You know, every day, every morning as a president, I see, ah, there is new enterprise.

There is new restaurants in town. There is new, you know, new things, new business opening. That's great. We need to give to people. people more. But now we see that backslide, you know, there are some democratic decline, all those things in Mongolia happening. It's still one thing. Mongolian democracy is quite resilient.

Still they are resisting. In your view, the average Mongolian has to conviction that nothing bad is going to happen at the borders with Russia and China. Yes. Right. One thing we managed to do that with China, with Russia, every inch of our border, there is no claim from Russia or China that settled down in that market. And every inch our border is registered. And we signed bilaterally with Russia bilateral agreement with China, this inch, this is well-de-point. well-depined and that is registered in the UN. Now, you know, ever since you became a democracy, it's interesting how more and more Mongolians started romanticizing with Jiangiskan.

Why is it that they started doing that only after they became a democracy? Was it a pent-up sentiment that they actually wanted to reveal or express during the communist regime? but we're not able to? Or this is a new, you know, development? I think why there were the extermination of that lineage from Jenghis Khan or that big perch or that oppression, you know, political repression happened in Mongolia. I think communism is one way, it's ideology, one way, maybe this is irreligion.

They cannot coexist. with other point of view. For example, in Mongolia we worship our hands, Genghisad, and that cannot coexist. But in a democracy, that can coexist. Even you have very left-wing, left, you know, ideology or right or center, or nationalistic, you can coexist in Mongolia.

But all those origins come all of, the way from Kun Empire before Jingasan. Jingasan wasn't he was he not was born out of blue. He just grew up

from that great tradition, great history. Before that, 2,000 years, now in Mongolia we are celebrating 2,230 years of our statehood

means that that's long before 1,000 years before Jing's San, there was big, you know, tolerance to the religious belief and that law order, all those things were in Mongolian steps. And actually, Chengxan collected that and saw that and took all those valuable things. And he used that in a big way. And means that that actually, it means that in 1990, Changshan, that ideology,

when you are nation, you have to find some kind of pride from somewhere. And we found it from our great arts. And people usually ask, was Jing's son that bad guy, you know, destroying everything? And I usually say that, no, no, he was not that bad guy. But during his time, he did not pay, you know, money for PR things, you know. He didn't employ PR firms. Even though Ching's Han invaded the most known world, he did not ask to build for himself one statue.

No, he just built those bridges. Before attacking any country, anyone, they send in voice to them. And they just asked, you know, Cheng's son, all those Hans thought that, you know, they were destined to rule. They give you a choice. And they gave you a choice. And under my rule, live in peace.

Yeah. And maybe they asked some kind of taxes or something like that. When they destroyed, when they cut off their heads of the invoice, when they had so arrogant, they paid price. The year 1258 was pivotal. When one of the descendants of Jenghis Khan by the name of Hulagokan, Kulag. She wasn't happy with what the people in Baghdad did to the envoy. And my gosh, the consequence was game-changing.

Grandhan Chenghis Khan. Yeah. I mean, obliterated the House of Wisdom, the Baital Hikma, obliterated allegedly a million people in Baghdad. And because of that, you know, many people in the Muslim world, I think, have thought that it brought about the decline of wisdom or scientific wisdom. But there are very different views, of course, on that. One view is that, of course, those people were very arrogant. They killed their own voice.

And they didn't accept, of course, their offer. Right. And that was not good. That would not happen maybe if they had that kind of a peaceful settlement. And maybe and the other thing, when Kulekhan was sent, he's the grandson of Chengsang. And actually, Chengxan went all the way to Afghanistan. He remained there for three, two, three years. And after that, he retreated.

And of course, after that he died, passed away. And after, you know, when, yeah, Ching's Han, Uyghudok became Grand Han, and he dispatched all those, yeah, things, and continued his invasion or his conquest. But the other thing, when Kulagu came to that part of world, Persia, Iran, Iraq, there were the cold. People called Assessons. Right. Who lived in the mountains, you may know, and who used that narcotics or something like that, gashish, and they call it. And they terrorized local people, and they went to the mountain.

And like a terror group, kind of. And when Kulogu came, he took care of those clans, you know. And after that, he brought kind of peace. And that was, and that local people thought, wow, that's something from God's sin or something, you know, God and warrior. And Clegg was quite successful there. Just my first encounter, when I, one time I visited Iran, I met, I told a how many. And his eminence told me that when I checked his hand, I said, Your Eminence yesterday I visited Sultani Muhammad Muslim.

And I told how many responded to that. You know, Sultani Mohamed did good things. And that was opening conversation. Your eminous, what do you mean good things? And he said, Sultani Mohammed built the observatory, first observatory. And he built first university. universities, post hospitals, and even libraries, of course, yeah, that was different. And he built.

And he did really good things. And most important thing, he made Shia religion, main religion, on this land. And I told him how many regarded the head of the Shia religion. That was the Mongol Shia, Sunni Shia division. That is started with that. And also after that, I met some professors who study, we call it Ilhan. Ilhan kingdom, Ilhanat. And they are studied, the professors who are specialized on the study of the Ilhan time,

they were very much, you know, supportive or very much, very different view they had. You know, Mongols, you guys, your. predecessors brought many good things. They did a lot of good things here. And they have tons of books and they have all those things, you know, to show to the people argument, you know, scientific study. That was really interesting. But they told me they are minorities, of course. When you go to Iran, when you go museums, one of the third artifacts.

from the past is related from the Ilhan time. There is really very visible footprint here in that part of world. Would you argue that the way to Khanate made decisions would have been highly democratic? Yes. Because they were so open-minded, right? Yes. With respect to new ideas, new people, new directions or what? In Mongolia, in Asia, I think we tend to value more wisdom.

Wisdom means more experience. Experience means when you are become more older, you become more experienced. You get accumulated more wisdom. Means that when first, for example, Chingasan himself was elected, he was chosen from the assembly, assembly of the, of those aristocrats, maybe 1,000, 3,000 people came there, and they had a very open discussion. And after that, there were several candidates.

Maybe Temuzun was one of them. But they chose Temuzan. Chingeshan's name before, Chengsan Timuzan. And after that, Jingasan. Changs means people say that Ocean, Tingis, we call. And Tingis means Mongolians landlocked. And, you know, we are far from ocean. Something related with ocean, we think that that should be big.

Ocean should be big. And Mongols gave to Han that Cheng's awesome title. And he chose that. After that, when Ching's son passed away, that took two years to choose. Even Ching's will was to choose his second son. But after that, they had that big meeting also. And one time in Europe all the way, Subeda and Bhattah, you know, today's Ukraine, Russia, and Poland, and they were really invading that big place, and the Europeans were very unhappy and feared, you know, to that and what was happening.

and something powerful is coming from there. And there they call Mongols. And one morning when they wake up, they all disappeared. Even today, they wonder why they disappeared. They found out that Great Han, Uygheda, died, passed away. In order to choose next Great Han, that big chieftains, all those commanders, all those people who has that lineage, they have to return and they have to in person

in their big assembly in Mongolia. And they returned. After that, they never returned to that place. But when they went, they left there around 1,000 or 2,000, 3,000 people or 500 people in their places. and to rule to continue. And because of that golden horde and also one of the Chingshan's sons,

kingdom and Ilhanat, all those four big kingdom after Changs an actually sustained or happened to be on the earth for 100 years. Even the great Mogul empire that built the Taj Mahal. Some people say, that's also

related to Tumurkan, who basically also some relations. Yeah. He traveled all right on. Yeah. I mean, he would have been one of the elements of lineage or affiliation.

I think so. Yeah. I want to go forward now. Means that we have big heart. Yes. We have big history. Yeah. We have something to worship.

We have something to study. And our history, I see that endless. You can study that and you can extract good things, good treasures from there. And combine with today's values, maybe you will have something good. That's my worldview. You sent out a tweet some weeks ago. That became viral, you know, with respect to the earlier map of Mongolia.

Talk about that. million, 12 million people. Talk about that. Yeah, when President Putin had that famous interview with Tucker Carlson. Yeah, I just saw that President Putin talked a lot of historic things. And some of them, I agree, some of them I don't know. And some of them I don't agree. And I think that's a kind of desperate thing, you know, leader in his history.

texture, using that historic things, and trying to put in judge his actions or imperialistic views, what he is doing and what he's done so far. And that, I thought, that's wrong. That's wrong. And because of that, I found out, I watched your interview. I found our old map. I see that. And but Mongolia is today peaceful and friendly.

freedom-blown country. That was just my comment, kind of humor. It means that people lack humor and that actually get that 12 million. That was only on social media on Twitter, but in websites, you know, in TV. I know you're coded all over. Everywhere that was coded. That is interesting. But what do you what do you think should unfold with respect to Ukraine? I mean, I talked to somebody who is a neighbor of Russia, Ukraine being a neighbor of Russia, Mongolia being a neighbor of Russia. Yeah. We have many similar things with Ukraine and also different things with Ukraine.

Similarity means we have, between us, there is only one country, Russia. Mongolia is in Asian part, Ukraine is in European part. If that invasion did not stop there, if Ukraine cannot retain their territories, that might happen in Asia in other parts of world. And because of that, what President Putin did and he is doing, no one should attempt to do that. That's my deep belief. I think it became the belief majority of the people. When we had after just when it started that Ukraine invasion by Russia, at the UN, there was big vote. And you see that only five countries voted for Russian invasion in 144-something countries.

overwhelming. 140 countries representatives saying that it was not good. We are not supporting this one. And maybe around 30 countries abstain one of the Mongolia.

And that says a lot. And it means that war is no longer the tool, the tool to solve problems between countries.

political issues or, you know, no longer good tool even for the big politicians. It's obsolete now. That might be good, was good tool during Chengx Khan, during Kulikhan, during Hubei Han, during other dynasties, during 19th centuries, up to the 19th centuries, maybe in 20th centuries, we saw two world wars.

And all those war conflicts, actually, people suffering more than who are initiated, who are doing that things and who's rhetoric, you know, irretoric is not stopping war or not bringing peace. And because of that, I see war in big terms, now it's obsolete. Now we have to understand it. And now we have to change our worldview. No war. What else? There are thousands of opportunities. How to cooperate.

That's the way. That's the new era. If you say that if you want to determine by one word, our new era, new reality, no war. This world has no place. for war. We had enough. And now we have enough civilized tools, enough opportunities. I think even though soldiers fighting in the front, they know that if they live there, if they not die there, if they not killed there, they, when returned to their homes, they can have very different

future. They can start new business. They can start new family. They can, that guy can have new family, children, wife. And there are, I say it's like an annesance time. Why I am saying that in terms of the creating knowledge, creation of knowledge and also distribution of knowledge, We are living, we are experiencing the Renaissance time. Why we should have war? Why Mr. Putin should have this war? Other thing I usually say that

I met many times President Putin. I talked with him. I shared tea with him. I did, yeah, I had a long, long hour with him and talking about our bilateral relationship. and I know his mindset and I think he should now stop

and now I think before he started war he didn't thought that this war invasion of Ukraine may end up in this way it was now it's happening what's happening in Ukraine

I think that's the very bad this scenario for Putin. He really bad. He really worst scenario. He thought after three days, maybe a regime changed in Kiev and, you know, everything. But it did not happen. Instead, he got this, this, this, this, a lot of mess. And from that, when those autocratic regimes have maybe advantages and disadvantages.

So one disadvantage is you are their only decision maker. All those people are bringing information maybe not good, suited for you. And on that, if you make decision, you're going to fail. You're going to fail miserably. And also, Putin is tested. Before Putin, you know, I studied in Soviet Union Academy. I know Soviet Union military and their doctrine. I know Russian Army.

And I thought even myself, I thought Russian Army most power, one of the, after America, Russian Army's second most powerful army in the world. But now we found out not that powerful Russian army. Some people are joking today. Maybe a Russian

army is second most powerful army after Ukraine. Of course, Ukraine having that net of veterinary, all those things. But he tested and that he failed. And all those, most of the autocrats around the world, they are

watching. In China, they're watching. In Africa, they are watching in Latin America in Middle East. They are watching. If Putin succeed, they will be very much encouraged. If Putin punished, if Putin stopped, if Ukraine return their territories, those of the crats will be discouraged. They will have second thought always. It's good to good. to make this decision or this war, this invasion, maybe that's not good. I think China's one thing is good. China is always learning. From my student years, from Brezhne of time, China learned.

It's, you know, this way of the developing economy, Maoism, Marxism, Lenism, communism, communism, it's not good. We are stuck. We need to bring that market economic principles into our economy. capitalist tool. We have to accept capitalist tool. After that, they learned from garbage of one thing. Hey, maybe it's not good to liberalize politics.

Politics should be in one hand, in a tight, and economy should be liberalized. Politics should centralized. That learned from Gorbache. And they learned from Putin also. Maybe this war, forcefully uniting. some parts of the world, some parts of land, you know, it's not good idea. We had a discussion with our colleague here, Professor Stephen Gagin. He was using the phrase, interestingly, winning the peace.

Do you envision a scenario with respect to Ukraine? Yeah, now circumstances changed. If you asked me a year ago, I had a very different vision, maybe very forceful. Right. You know, Ukraine should win. Ukraine should not accept, you know, lose their territory, all those things. Yeah, now I see that this war, this conflict. If we don't think about the winning peace side, it will go further.

It will have more destruction, more that. And I really don't believe that in a quick, good solution. Of course, means that by one-sided solution. Maybe that winning peace. Some people call it cold peace. Like a Korean peninsula type of piece, that 36 parallel peace. Let's have that. maybe

I think still they are talking about that when frozen conflict yeah frozen conflict I studied

one thing President Zelensk is 10 that peace plan 10 stage peace plan that not starting

they stopping war that starts with the nuclear safety issue after that maybe environmental

safety issue after that all those hijacked children should come come back to their country, all those things, you know. That six, seven-s-punct actually starting with the negotiation with the territories, all those things.

Also, they have that idea, that initiative, peace initiative is still talking. I think it's good to talk. Also, you know that I'm one of the elders. All the 12 people, quite exclusive clubs. Yes, I know. And our elder members go to Ukraine, our elderly. elder member go to Gaza. And since the Gaza event, we issued third letter to Biden, how to solve this problem and all those things.

And that was established by great Nelson Mandela. And in every country, I told you that when person became elder, usually if you are looking for some solution, sometimes you come to the elders and ask for their advice. And we are just advising. We are no longer holding the office because of that our views are more balanced. But highly respected. Yeah, quite highly respected. And we write letters to the secretary general of UN and to all those people.

And we try to do that to Zelensky and we're sending. And even Nelson Mandela said one thing. Things seem impossible until it's done. That's interesting. Today maybe peace is impossible in Ukraine, but until it's done, you have to try. You have to try, you have to work. I want to go to China.

You know, if we talk to most people in Southeast Asia, we recognize our rich history with China in the last 2,000 years. And if there would have been any military confrontation, the Chinese would argue that it was during the Mongol dynasty, the Yuan dynasty. Yuan dynasty, Hubeihan, yeah, a Hubeleihan dynasty. And, you know, we've seen skirmishes in Sumatra during the, you know, the 12th and 13th centuries. to that extent there is this intuition that we could have peace and stability with China because now that China they have consolidated their ethnicity right they're mostly Han now right there shouldn't be any reason for war and whatever with China

however when we talk to our American friends they keep a certain that there's this hegemonic tendency of the Chinese. I'm curious as to what your perspective is with regards to this. Two differing views about China. China has that the red line policy, for example, inside their country, for their people, for their enterprises, for their economy, capitalistic economy for their entrepreneurs, they have one red line policy. If you accept Chinese Communist Party monopoly, you can do anything. If you don't harm that thing, you know,

Chinese Communist Party is main party, ruling party, policy making, decision making. If you not compete with that, you can do what you want. That's the instance. inside of China. Outside of China, if you not harm Chinese interest, they call it core interest, you can be good neighbors, you can be, can have good relations. And one thing I really highly respect one thing in China with the Chinese leaders. I met the Xi Jinping president at Ho-Jentau and before and some Chinese leaders and I see that they are predictable. If they say something, they go for it.

Even President Xi Jinping, when he came to Mongolia, he told me that, you know, Mr. President, China will always respect your people's choice, your way of life. And China will always respect Mongolia's in the business, independence, sovereignty, and that sanctity of the border, and all those things, we will respect. And I asked presidency, Mr. President, today you're going to make big speech at our parliament.

Please mention that to our people, just not between us. And he said that really to Mongolian people. And if they say that in China, there is one. One belief, if our emperor, if our president today say something, they will live up, they will pursue it, they will go after it, they will hold it. And accountability is there. Accountability is there. I think one of the main belief, one of the main thing, why this Chinese Communist Party, this rule, this kind of the political system is so kind of formidable. I think that's the thing.

If they say, they do. And most of the people believe. That's very important when it comes to your country's relations. What would define a red line with respect to Taiwan for the Chinese? I think in Taiwan issue, as a elders, as a member of the Club de Madrid, and largest prime minister and president's club. And we listen to many experts. And I think there are many, many avenues.

There are many, many ways to solve, to try to tackle this problem. Not only from the Chinese way or American way or forceful unification. That's maybe that forceful unification is just only one way. There are diplomatic solutions. There are expanding those economic relations. human relations. Oh, there are a lot of angles, I think. Yeah.

I agree. And we have to try all those things. You know, we're seeing a decline of multilateralism. The role of multilateral institutions seems to be declining by way of the global order, having become much more multipolar. You were talking about peace earlier, very passionately, which I embrace. But if I take a look at, if we take a look at the defense budgets of the world, just keep increasing.

At the moment, if you sum up the defense budgets of all countries around the world, we're talking about $2.75 trillion. I've asked this question to someone else before. The UN only has a budget of around $3 to $4 billion. How do you expect a multilateral institution to help bring about peace when everybody collectively spends $2.75 trillion a year? Did you try to this question yourself to answer? it's almost impossible, right, to bring about eternal peace when everybody's just outspending the other militarily.

Yeah. Right. You know, humans and all those leaders have two, three, maybe many sides, maybe many two sides. One is craziness, you know, one is more militarized, one is more to look, kind of the powerful person on their positions. I think it's still that's dominant. even in relation with China, you see, when presidency come up with that uniform

and giving that military salute, I was there in the amendment square and watching, and when he go in front of those pride, you know, those military and making that. And every man, every leader has a little bit of that, little bit of Ching'san, little bit of that military ambition. Of course, yeah.

I think now also they have to, now in their stature and they are thinking about their legacies. Of course. When you are president, you think about everyday business, what you should accomplish, and sometimes you think about your legacy. It's sometimes better to think about from the end.

When I leave my office last day, how will look like my country? Like Putin or Xi Jinping or American president. They should think about that. World today is suffering from three big things. One is American complacency. Second is Chinese expansion. Third is Russian intervention or Russian aggression.

Yeah. aggression. Yeah. And they need to, these three countries, if you are a big country, you have a big responsibility. Big power means big responsibility. And you have to think about that. And we focus as elders on these issues and we criticize those people. You only think about military solution there in Hamas or destroying 100% those people.

But if there is, yeah, broad, you know, punishment for those people, yeah, ordinary people are dying more than those people who are committed that crime. Why you are doing that? You have to think about that. And I think war is not good solution. Now we have to think, take out that war worth. after that when we took out war things from our business we will consider why if there is no war why we are investing a lot in our weaponry

you will think about that and that means we have to talk a lot like this like we are talking today and we have to bring our worldviews to other people and we force and when we go to other audiences, we have to bring this message to the people. Gaza, is there hope for sustained ceasefire and ultimately a two-state solution? I think there is only one big, only one man, the president of the United States, can do that.

If he really committed, he only can. He stopped Netanyahu. I think Biden. But if he asked Biden, he would say only Bibi could stop himself. Yeah, that's the problem. It's a little worrisome. Worrysome. Yeah.

Politics is, you know, really is business like in Mongolia, we call it on the tin ice, you know. Yeah. You are walking on the thin ice. no. Yeah. Also, Mongolia in terms of the geopolitics, we have to toy the ice. When you are on the menu, bear and dragon, you are freedom-loving pony. Every day, every morning on the menu, you have to think about that.

You have to have a lot of angles. You have to deal with that. I think when I was president, I had also fairly good relations with President C and President Putin. And we talked about our bilateral issues and also global issues and their core interest issues. Mr. President, you've been very freedom-loving and peace-loving, right? How do you spread the message? One thing is through the social media. I'm very active on Twitter.

I'm very active on my Facebook. Of course, there are some fake ones, but with that blue line and all those things, if you go there, and please, yeah, if your listeners can follow me, I can follow them and you follow me. And through that, I'm still on the polls of, you know, even I'm away from my home now, but I'm seeing that people, at least on the social media, what they are talking about. and I am feeling the pulse of my nation every day and through that wider world. And that's one thing.

You know, in terms of technology, we are equal. In Mongolia, Hurd's men, they use that smartphone. They, you know, Hurtsman wife, and when she wakes up and she's messaging to her daughter, hey, wake up my daughter, you are late to your school, like that. And the father is asking, what is the price? Kashmir price in Ulambatra market, you know. In terms of that, we are equal.

Technology is greatest equalizer. And means that through that also you can share your knowledge, your information. You interact with the people. If you more interact with the people, you will understand with people. Some people say that What about hate speech

You know in social media Your social media users are bad No When I put my My post When I see that You know there are 95% people like this

You're good It means good Maybe just Zero-08 or nine Are very angry face Something like that means that in terms of that soul, people's soul are very healthy. You just bring, you just keep them give more opportunity and more interact with the people.

Through that also, you can update yourself. Any final messages, President? That's it, yeah. It's a great. Thank you. It's a great discussion. You know, you are my friend, and I found you. at the Stanford University, I met you.

It's like treasure, you know. I really value my time at Stanford University. I usually say that it's like a nursery of the great ideas. Yes. All professors, all fellow, all those people, students, they are trying to solve some problem or they are trying to study something. They are making some research to make this world.

a better place to live in. Let's work like universities. Let's be like, you know, like these fine young students. And then our world will be more peaceful. More, yeah, beautiful place to live. Let this podcast become a nursery of ideas. Yeah, nursery of ideas, nursery of ideas. Exchangeing of ideas.

When we talk between each other, we became much more similar. We found out, wow. Yeah. This guy is talking like this. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. Looking forward to seeing you again.

Thank you. Yeah, thank you. That was Albegdor, Sakiya, former prime minister, former president of Mongolia. Thank you. This is Endgame.