Endgame with Gita Wirjawan - Elvira Lianita: Rise of Women, A Work in Progress (Kartini Day Special)

Episode Date: April 21, 2021

Study shows that success and likeability for men and women in the workplace carry different perceptions. Both mindset change by the individuals and conscious efforts by organizations and policymakers are needed to create equal opportunity for women to rise to leadership positions. In collaboration with HM Sampoerna Tbk. Visit www.sampoerna.com or Inside Sampoerna social media accounts for more info: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/InsideSampoerna Twitter: https://twitter.com/InsideSampoerna Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/insidesampoerna/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/pt-hm-sampoerna-tbk YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChkBnsuC2XDA_t2fBUskXDw

Having the right mindset is the start the start the start to be the first how can be able to make a part of the people and not only for the room-tanguangans, not only for the whole of the world or even international, can many people who can inspirem. Today's pressing question, where are the women?

While women's representation is rising and and more and more industries, many professions are still assigned to specific genders. Perhaps because the study shows that success and likability for men and women in workplace carry different perceptions. While having ambitions as men are positively correlated, people would see this as arrogant, or quote, bossy, unquote, for women. Today for Kartini Day, we'll try to share the story of an everyday Indonesian modern woman. We'll talk to Elvira Lianita. She is the external affairs director of Haim Sampurna.

Just like many, she had to climb up the letter of a male-dominated world. We'll talk about how her dilemma in the past has led her to be passionate about helping her current institution to help more women empower themselves. So wherever you are today, look around and ask, where are the women? And let's share their stories. Thank you. Enjoy this episode. This is Engame. TENKINET

TORLINITA Director of External Affairs at PTHM-Sampurna. Elvira, thank for the gettanguance at the endgame. Thank you, thank you,

thank you, thank you. We're going to talk about many here, about the empowerment of women. And this is just a bigawing in mancha-negara. Howe how the peran the pre-empoan,

it's more be able to be able to be able to beurredaicant, not only in different professions, but also in the position of leadership. But before that, I want to hear Tellas. All right. So, I'm from where. So, tell us.

All right. I'm... I'm... ...Irable in Surabaya, Agita. I'm... ...and-besar and be in Surabaya. So, school, also, in Surabaya,

school, P, S&P, SMA, Kulia, too, ... ...bisark by a single mother. Okay. So my father passed away when I was like... one, Mr. Gita, that was tough, I was six, with a brothera, I was the last.

And, yeah, yeah, I was a career, I'm from my career in the Surabaya, started in hospitality industry, I was then I'd have to Jakarta, as a grand-hya Jakarta, as a public relations at that time, until I'ma, in Philippe Morris, in 2001. So, then, then, to Manjutin to Sampurnah,

because that was taken over by Philip Morris, Indonesia, in 2005. And here I am today, be career in Philip Morris, Indonesia, Sampurna, has, kind of, medecati 21-tawn, Pagita.

In hospitality, is kind of, with the power of a woman. Right. even, can't be the majority of the workforce is a woman. Is it a woman. Right. That's what's the person in the person that's how much,

the portion of the percentage of the population of the worker, that's how about, and aspirations to do that's how? So, if in Sampurna, actually, I'm going to be from Philip Morris International, Then too much, that's all right, when it's all right, in, in, 2005. From the first I've been working

in Philip Morris, in 2001, one thing I noticed is there's not a difference between the same. We are treated the same. In the same opportunity, in all the same opportunity, so, not we don't depend on,

if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if we'repani, I'm sorry, yeah, pa. Hamil, abys it, to the time, after that's not to be able to be able to, and that's the back again. It's not there, so we're all compete in level that same.

When I'm going to Filippe's in 2007, with bigger organizations, workforcese, we're getting up in Fulipfrey, in Indonesia, is very small, we are applying the same culture, basically, that, that's about the other women. But I have to acquitue that,

then, put, a upy-upyapy with a with a certain that's about that's the same, then in six years, 2014, I'm going to remember. So, really, really, didata so much, that when we have

intake, position, from the other, make sure that candidates candidates have been making the same. If we're looking two positions, then there's candidates five lanky-lake-lake, five pre-men, as-beas-muching. That's what we're doing just effort to make sure that we'll make sure that we'll be able

the same with the guy-lake. Now, in the dalam, it's also, parisdolsterned by, by Sampurna, by Philip Morris International, Soisional also. So how much more than a different way to findly to be a lot of women, but not

it's not even about meritocracy. Maritocracy is still bottom line. But we're just what is the kind of what's the kind of to come down to to come down to them

with family? How we can be flexible in doing that, asal can deliverables still same, quality is still good. And that's what I'm just as simple as, as as a small as, has a room lactation in the

for usaughan. Then, when we're festive season, like, like, like, we're like, we're we're making for a place of the people. So, not I'm making-selling the art of the lanky-laki, but, but, it's, if, if, with the child, that's going to take care. So that's not going to be there.

Right, it's kind of how to work with enough. That's then, it's then, in the world of the work that's kind of with the guy-lake-lake-lake, like, the percent of the people are small because, yeah,

tough, it is tough, in the labang. That's what we also adjust the way of the way, so that we can also can be participates in the bidonathean, not only the other than, it's got dominated the other than,

like, how to make sure about the equality of outcome, that's... ...that's... ...that you're... ...that you said, we were...

...if we're going to recruit, we interview five lach, and five... ...the... ...that we also, that attributes in each of each candidate, that's very be partangu-javent. That's what that's what you're doing in the company?

In the process it, still has been a process penilaying. Performance indexing is still has been same, not because of the women, oh, yeah, I'd say, I'd say, no, same same, not like that. But, still, it's all of the system that's been taken system that's been setaped. So we have basic qualities that have been to be able to positions

and it must not have the leadership position as far, sir, sir, that we're left that we have conscious effort to make up to increase the kineerja perempt, but bottom line is still meritocracy. So it's not there, Then the woman's more, the more than the more than the more than the more than the

men who is going to fulfill the quotas of the quotas, that's what is doing. There is a KPI that has to becapay by each-masing, and it's very kindle-sook, in our company. But, now, if for the relative junior, the organization,

it's been female-dominant, If you're junior, if you're about in production facilities, yes. Okay. That's the percentage of the position? Wow, dominant, if we're... More than 50% in the past. More than we... I'm talking about leadership position,

so managerial to the past, but, uh, and the aim our today is 37% and our aim our 2022 is 40%. Okay. I want to take observation of my own observations, if I was in the same TK, S.D. S.M. P.S.M.A.

Right. Majority from the guru is, the, is the, right. And, I'm actually, and I'm still remember, the, and ajaran of my guru-gouru-gura in SDS, P, SMA. But if it's in the Dementia,

it's the percentage of the percentations of the difference. Is it? There is a correlation of the percent of the group of the university, with the resumphantas, with the other people who are people who are women, there?

There is, if I can't be there. If I can back to back, back. One of one of our kind of our our kenthala is to find coach, the right, mentor, who we can make inspiration.

I went through the hard part, in the art part, because at that I didn't know, the women empowerment, it's like four, six years, so, you know, so I'm saying that that I said that

that's been in the class, it's been dominated by the like, like the other than I'm like in the junior position, they just may be in the entry level of managerial, just, you know, they want to share. They want to share.

Concerns is what, how many reassatiness, rather than having the hard part for trial and error, sometimes, with the same people who can't maybe make a process that will help, that will inspire them, even not even the way that's not the way it is possible, it is, that I can manage my personal life, to integrate with my professional life, that is possible.

That is possible. Well, you probably have become a role model for many women or a woman who are maybe still school or maybe who's junior in professions, but if I look at the end up here, after after this, there's actually narasumber our own. It's justro who's one. Yeah, right?

There's a founder of several start-up. Start-up. And, there's also, there's even, And, in the science, I was more more than a little more than a person who can be able to give inspiration on the scientific we to the next to the future. Now, that's curious.

How about Alvira? I believe everything started from home, if I'm which I'm not to my parents, sirs, I'm saying, one of the other one, one, one lady, and the same thing that's actually, it's actually,

I'm trying to see that. When I'm reflex, it's all that's from the home, how many people people are metreat the of the other

equal. The key is equal, to empower to be the best of themselves. Versy, whatever, whatever profession that they're going to

push them push them to be able to be able to be interested in, that more people who are more than the more than the way of the science. My son's a computer science, ma' okay. So that's what, then, that's also, that's the way that's communication

or, or, you know, or a-bubbunation- international. Like, like, that. So, it's not like that. So, I'm going to be the right mindset, that you can be whatever you want,

to be the best version of yourself. That's what we have to take in the room. Now, more than that, like I'm in organization that's quite big, so I try to play my role. In fact I'm reflecting, to back to back what I went through,

what I was through, what I was what I was in the same 20-torn. I know that's now that's not to be in my position. That's what then, which is then encourage me, because it's actually,

because it's also by organization, organization as a conscious, to make a system, where that can do get to be done, and to create a platform, platform, discussion, how how women in the organization that's in leadership position,

and even, there in the middle, can inspire the juniors. Yeah. So, back again, I'm saying is that it can be done from the room. We have the right mindset, that's equal, lo. Permanu's with the other than there, no, there's no,

we're going to bigger population, or in the organization, or in community. That, it's must be tularked, sir. And in our company, we also to the community more than how to come back-upam, the payum-besarer, but we also pay attention to UMKM that's done by the women.

Right. They can have role in the per-economian of the work. That's what we do, Pat Gita. That's a example in Bangladesh that was by Muhammad Yunus. He can bemerdayakhan about the bu-ibu and justru, with the mereddaia in the

places and in the places plosso-plos-poh, that collectability is more ... ... Yeah, right? And, yeah,

maybe it's very can be a good for us all but I'm just try to draw on a little, In your in 10 years, not-mooking, not there's tantangans, as a woman.

Right. Where you can, maybe, dejeel-in, or did dominations by lous-lake-lake. In right, atas and below. Now, that, talk about it. How episode-episode that just true to make make sure to be more

aspirations, to be more success. In the early career of myself, Pat Hita, there's true there, always there's dilemma, like, when the other kids also still, like, yeah. Not-jarang, I'm going to ask, sir, when I was at that,

when I am I a good mother? when I am I a good professional? So that's a very not very nice, because we are questioning ourselves, is because we're being a lot of a lot of a lot. But at the time we're with our time, when we're with our kids, we think of the work. And then, at the end of what I said,

again again again to the mindset, how we're going to, to make what's what's going to what? And whatever we choose, at the end of the day, we have to work on it. For me, for me in the way, yes, I went through tough times, with all of all kinds of, I have to integrations between professional and personal.

But I'm privileged, actually, I'm actually, back to be honest with you. Maybe not even, the woman has similar with me, because the power of the repokanees, then, the resupporting the problem that's being held up to empower,

we feel that we're empowered, we feel devalued by organizations, so in many things, I'm I'm thinking, I can be contributribusia more. If, Tadad, we said, process how much? That's, that's the time,

mentoring, coaching, it was not too popular at that time. But I'm just to learn Elvira, I'm going to learn Elvira. I'm looking for the figures that I feel quality quality of the quality I have to trypkan in the perjalan career. And that I'm doing. If I did,

if I did it proactively, At that time, I did it proactively to do that thing that's really. So I think that quality is to be able to by men, or other than people, that's the same thing, but you have to earn it. You have to put your effort.

At the end of the day, there's not that there's that can't work-keras, there's that there than dedication, there's not that there's

to getermination or or the commoan-krasy, so, three combinations. I want to try push a bit. Yeah.

Is it, in the episode that – wad, this, this,

right, did you feel that you had to work much harder than Koleha Laki? If

But if much harder, to be able to something a good-harka-an, yeah, can? Is it, is it more than more than with more than the people in the back in the can'tar? Now, so, in my case,

not like a lot, because from from, because I dididdyed in the room, I didn't be better with the other than the other. Okay. I never compare to me with the other people. Comparisoned my people, more people, more than people, more than the gender, that's irrespective of the gender. What I'm, that's what I said,

that quality of a individual, that's to be determined from the work of their, from the determination of their, from the focus of what he's doing, but I didn't specifically to be banninged me, oh, I have more than the other than the other than, I'm not. I'm looking for my mother.

I don't matter. I'm going to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to myself, and it's making it to inspire my own. Arne is that, if I'm going to be like that, if I'm going to be like, because from here, from here, I'm going to be able to reflect. Because from from, I'm not ever did not even I'm not even about your job is at home, taking care of the kids, doing some cooking, not ever,

I've got, I've got, like, so, like, so. So, whatever I'm doing that I'm just like I'm just like with my my brother-lake-lake-lake-say, and now, depending on the individual, when we're giving the same, one, one, want just to just-sant-santy-santy-a-o, that's one, that's,

But one is the one is the way, if you're the Jayawa, that's, but, yeah, it's not the result of the last yearn't. So, there's mythos or paradigm or or the people that, if there's a woman who's more than to classifications as arogant, or super-ambisious. But if, but if,

if, if, if, who's who is who is going to success with career, that's normal. How do you break that down? Because I think you can be example of good for women who are not only in the person you're in the world in Indonesia,

that's it, this is there, so we're very focused, irrespective of the gender, and we're really, can't even

can't make meditocratsy, There's no, there's not as a certain as it's not as a certain as a certain as it's not as it's as being as an agonial. Now that, I think it's going to be cool, if it's been able to be cool, if it's more than more female dominant. Right, right, right. And it's, it's going to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able-deged in the position of the

people. This is the right. This is the right beyond. How about it? How do you? Now, if I'm not going to again, back again, you know, the more of the people,

but what I'm the important for me, the individual, the individual the people, there's an idea to have to make the way of a lot of the people, but as a person,

every person, has been to do that. So, tentu-can what you want to do you, there's no barrier anything. And I've never said, you know, that's been a career. Not in, in the life, if you're even,

maybe, it's the mother-tanker. For me, it's the same way that he then, then, to be a career, that's... Choose whatever makes you happy, if, I'm not sure, So if for the paradigm, one, the people have to have

that people have equal opportunities with the other than the other than like the other than, and the woman's own, and the other than that's not if he doesn't have a mindset, it will be hard, oh, I'm going to be able to be

different with the other, so I can't get to get the position. Do not blame the world. C-cute. Cobarapes. What we can't what we can bring to that. What I'm the right mindset is the start

the most of the right for someone to build up for future. And mindset is actually can be a process, you know, we're going to meet a challenge, we're going to be a situation, it's just be able to evolve, but that's it.

But that's the right mindset is the start the most to the most of the most of the way how can be able to make a pramble more better, not only for the room-tanguangans, not only for the whole country, or even international, can be there are many people who can inspire me.

Right. What do you do at work to make colegha to make colegal, male, that's not... Not insecure, like, sorry, I'm going to try to draw a little. Be fair. Be fair, okay. Holding on the integrity, yeah,

but that's not just the lateral, but it's not to be the back, right, but that's, back, back, again, because from from, I've never seen that are different creatures that have been in a state of my, or to be a threat, I never ever doing that. So, so long as I've done, the same, that's the same.

As simple as, what I'm doing to my colleague of the same than I do with my colleague of my or other team members of my, that's same. So there's there. At the end of the day, that will recutting them is, it's, that's the result of the work that's done.

So, yeah, there's a paradigm, if, if there's a person in career, that's, that's arrogant, that's that's arrogant, the word that's

arogan. There's been, there, but, yeah, that's that. Yeah, because it's to be... Depecate.

Yeah, that's, Right, right. Right. Because, yeah, lousy-lake, tendonsie, it's like that. Oh, do you know, if I was my woman, how, if you're going to, what, yeah, that's what, that's target to make 40%

composition of the woman as senior position holder, that in 2020? Correct, ma'amble. Realistically? Yeah. Achievable. And that's done in our

in our own-sohn's it, that's I'm very much, be able to Sampurna, be working at Philip Morris International in affiliation, because value-value it's very deep-fellue, and effort that's, it's not a lip service.

That's a lateral pro-hire from outside, or from internal pool? Two-dway, sir. Okay, more than what? Internal? Oh, internal. Definitely internal. But that's that we also,

in our case that we need to have a professional position, and from within, like it or not as an organization, we have to acknowledge, and, then, higher from external, you know, but, t'tentousa, but, of the other thing is done in internal, massive, I have to say. So, there are platforms where we can

can't shareing, then, then, to give coaching and mentoring, you know, even the other people can get up, and the same, but what,

the channel for the women this also give give up to that, that the way, that's going, but, very, very,

very good. And I think coaching that, too, has multi-dimensional. In other not only for the key of the professions. Correct, sir.

Yeah, right? Yeah. How can't balance how to balance the house and and the other and stuff. And one thing

I have also also, in the process I'm making or coaching, or just sharing, or just not,

it's not toughness just, right, right? The same is sensitive, sometimes, yeah, it's just what they'll be sharing. But I do share those kind of things, like I said I talked to you.

I told to you, I was telling you, when I was in the middle position, I'm questioning myself, am I a good mother, am I a good employee, for example. Do I do enough, that's not. That's what I'm questioning myself. That's that's that I want to share

to other people who are from organizations that same, or other people, that you need to solve that, you need to convince yourself at the end of the day, so whatever you do, you focus, you find the happiness spot in you. Where, the portion of it, you decide, you do it, you take action. The way, it's right.

Let me ask you. This, we've got to look, we've got many people in a position in the position of the un-uponics of the organization. What's your endgame? My endgame is to look more people in leadership position.

If today I'm is one of the board of directors in Sampurna. There are two women today in the board of directors. I hope there will be more. At least it's going to be 50%, total, yeah? Total six, yeah. So there are two from six?

Yes. Not a majority of six? No, but we have... No, I mean the endgame not going to go to that? Yeah, more than... More than three? More than three. Why not?

Why not? Why not? Now, here's actually, in management position, we have – we have BOD, then we have management position. I think it's more than 50% already. Yeah. Which is good. And your personal endgame?

My personal end game, to look for your own career. Oh, for my own career, my end game. My end game, of course, taking a bigger role. To be as good as can be, right? To be as good as can be. Take bigger role,

today today's in Indonesia. There is always opportunity to be able to be able to global, international. Okay. And, I'm sure there is... And then, if I'm going to inspire the population in the organization, especially for the woman,

to be more moving up the ladder to the ladder to in the career. I want to ask, this is what we're going to get a little, but I feel there's relevancy. How to we can more than more the woman who

can be a guru in universities? And how how how a woman who's more than a gooder than a good quality work in corporations, I think it's ongoing, and this is just how much the same thing. But if I'm in myruths that's a systemic, how how, so, ...

...wantity can be a pedic in the Duna Tershireshire, because that if I see, the percentations is only 40 percent, Right. No. No. No. And I don't know how I think about, I think that's my guru guru's who are mutu, from TK.

From the time, it's more than the women. Right. And it's lecat, really, in the benack I, like, on their, ajaran their, and everything. I think it would be kind of cool, if more, more, the other than it. Interesting, Pat, we're saying that,

and I think, is that is where. Why, why, why, why, the world of the world terseer, the number of the people are being there, like, what's what is the problem is, we're going to identify. Now, same thing, if I'm in my opinion, I think, I think,

I'm going to be a very significant to be melanching for menelor can the people of the people who are the people who are what is the end up, that's what is the problem is, but then try to address. Because if there's conscious effort to make them un-enahue to make the flow, now that we're just going with the flow. Yeah, well, just, it's just, it can't keep making it,

but, is it will be progress the up the progress of the the more than the more than the more than the is the more than the more than the more than the more than the the, what's the way, did, do you do an action, then, did a conscious effort, so, the target,

the end up what, it's just, but it is interesting, Bap, Marese, that guru STK, S, D, S&P, SMA, that dominant is a woman, But in tertiary? Yeah.

Why that gap? Maybe there's a gaping. Maybe there's a kind of with them to be able to be able to be able to be a family, or what I mean, there's a way to create the case of the profession with a business in a roomatag.

Now, if I've put in, this, this, very, it's very, it's, ... ... ...

I can't even if the woman's long as a COVID-in-jave for the family is more than more than more than the other than all of the cost of the expense of commitment or dedication to profession in the can'tor. And it's not a wrong, if, in my, but But tell us your experience in the 13 months

in the context COVID. It's tough. Yeah. It's tough. It's tough. Apalagi, for colleagues who have had another, they need attention, that's lucky enough to have kids.

One, one, who's one, who's the first, that's the three SMA. That's just for me, for me, It's more than you imagine they who are still S.D., TK, who need to be attention, that we are going through a tough time. Not only to be the pandemic it's but have to juggle

on how you take care of your family, pedidiccan because of their for them, so it's not gampangue. And then, they have the time of career, and the job of the other, Now, back again,

if I'm not going to create communication that's between the members with who's who's been supervisor, what's the other what's going to work things out. What's really from us,

the term-wean, who's getting gansy to give to know, we've got to because, I've got to be there, I'm like that. I'm not like that.

But it's not like that. Again, again, that's been created by management of the company is to acknowledge there is a problem that we need to address. And it's okay people sharing their issues and problems. We have to create leaders

with qualities that can acknowledge how things personal that can be a kind of the way to look at the solution, that's what I think that's really, it's tough, to be honest with you. Now, back again, like, if I'm like I asked them.

I ask, as simple I ask. Then, when they have to give us, I acknowledge, and we try to seek the solution, what what, like, what, is about we'll be a meeting in the day, if that's a problem solver. Because of the kids can start at all the school, if at all eight,

jams 7 pager, yeah, sir, so after that, it's okay. If we, whatever meeting that we have it must be nine onwards, things simple, things like that. Encourage the team to be able to shareing,

to open open communication. I like I always say to say, like I'm saying, like I'm 7 o'amlems, tell you don't get to gung, because that's the time that we sit at the same table and talk. But, but after that, if I'm then, I'm going to work again

after time 9 to do what is still pending, as long as I have the right mindset, in the artian, this is part of my responsibility, I have to do it. I don't know if I don't ever I don't ever I do you know, the world professional has been

making what's personal I'm not that I said that's about work-life integration that is something that

as long as we put effort, yeah, and the second is for what will be your purpose, what will be your focus and you work on it. Work from home

Can you not come from To create from If I'm talking about in a personal life I like it Yeah, right? Yeah, right? I don't know that, because if when we're going to school

online, and then we still work at a can't know Yeah, right? Right, right. If you're just, then, then, then,

then, like, I don't want to go there, but, but, yeah, And that's in the country and that's about from home, right? Yes. So, actually, yeah,

yeah, even before pandemic, we have, we're simply, implementations flexible hours. So, acknowledge the kind of

what that the, then they can discuss, there is opportunity for them to make to make uplexible hours. Of course,

all of course, also, the supervisors, yeah, sir, and as well as well as it's possible. Now, working from home, like, as like to my personal, I always say it loudly, I like it. I like it.

If at one time I'd be required to come to to come to, I'm fine, but I also have time to to be with my kids, I spend time with them, have time, like, unlike the previous 20 years, where I'm, I'm like to come back to come back to the room, it's a bit malan, that's a bit of the situation.

For me, the last this is, it's been handed by pandemic, it is blessing in this guys, for me, I just as well, I just rube-in-lider, that can't open the way for women, to be more than to be able to be in career. Manageable, yeah.

Yeah, right? But it's just in a certain that if WFH, it's still able to bring productivity, efficiency, and it's just been true, can, since 13 months this is. Do you think this will create a lot more opportunities for women? Yes.

Yes, right? So this is actually acknowledged by the country by the other than the end up to the other way. We're not thinking of going back the old ways. So how we can actually combine on the work from the room, then, also, the work from the counter. The important, is the bottom line.

Productivity is still can't be able to be Now that's like to create systems of how productivity this not even then become become becoming becoming we call it smart work so, but we acknowledge it, with working from the room,

hey, turn it, turned the productivity more, more, because we're making good, because we're making, because I'm making, because I can combine between the two, I can spend time with my family, and also doing my job. one one, but the rest we can manage. The rest we can manage, that's we can manage.

Right, right. If we can look, this is a role model of the people of the people and the people who are women, and just to look, more of the more than, yeah.

Yeah, right. Yeah. In the German. What are your views about those? those female leaders? I think I'm going forward, because for the past years, we've got one,

we've given upy for a person can be more be able to develop with men's situation. Because, as far as, the woman equally good with the other men, that's equally good. We have to bequotan and the lema'amahs which I believe will

be in between the women and the other but opportunity, it's sometimes that's sometimes, it's what I think, that's what I think that's all of the government, and give opportunity that same,

and to give effort that more to be to be more in the country cancah political, cancha of the of the organization,

as small as from the organization, or from the linguanguant from, it's all that's been structur, through system, because if you're to be able to

get ackleseration will be very because we all become more that the people can make a quality of

that then can, comprehensively, to build a government to be a I think in a few people in the people will be a lot of people,

I hope that's in Indonesia, I hope that's in America. Amen. I'maam. Oh, three, and the four and the five. Yes. Okay, I want to ask, if we look at the people,

in the government, it's been looking to be a lot, yeah, the people, the head, but, but, You're still as a lot of the community in the area?

Curang, but. Curang, much, yeah. Currown. Now, that what can be what can do you do? To make up to make up in the area. Come back again, is the only thing. The only thing. Like it?

Like it or not? It's always the people, like it or not. Because, the time of the people who are in the room, then, like it, like, people go to work. And the energy is that's what is to bebeanked, in order to make them, make inspiration

that they have equal opportunity in whatever they will they will be politically, to be a professional, or even work, too, possible, many people from from from from from from people. Like we're doing from from from people, like we're doing tuku-tok-clon-tonged,

we're called it's a simple retail community. Tarnata, more than 50% the people are the people are the people. So, they generate money for the other than, from the company. For me, it's amazing,

yeah. For me, it's amazing, like, that, They are helping the economy of the work with with a part of the people. And I know, the toco-colon-toning, they're also, and they're also making up to-do-old-do-old-old-court. They're also, while, giving us the key. So, comealy again, the key.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm looking, this, the woman, can be very much of many things, but what, and many times come to me, in context of the inclusion of the money. Right.

Right. Muhammad Yunus, one of the one of the examples, in microfinance. In Indonesia, we've got, we've got, we've got, this is a bit out of the box, in the way. If you're about

the cramahingking, do you see women being able to play a more proactive role, in the other role, to to make in the narrative to make a narrative about our own things to the more environment to the future. I'm looking at the point, this is two things in Indonesia.

There's many, but the two top, if I'm in order I, is, inclusion of the money, which I've seen the part of the women is, well, right. And the other, this is the climate, what's it's like, what's like it can't be

done by the people? Because if I'm going to be a lot of the people who's not many who got many of the climate, that's not that's that's very finite, because we're not too aty-atty. So I think that's, in nature, Nature has a... What's the name is, what we're going to...

...buttick, right, from from, from, actually, but... ...theirce in school, but if they're more... ...buttere more than ...terempan... ...tentang around the lingungunan.

...that... ...how do you think they can play that role? ...bears... ...becile role that can be taken back again. ...someuany have to structure... in a mechanism of education that comprehensive. If I'm taking a point, when we're taking the petanies,

that we did it's the first time is the mother. Because he, how how to make-application the material to protect the plant. What we're didic is the mother. Because the mother is that will be making uphackingart when I'm going to the other than to the lander, he'll be it again,

he's going to be it that I'm saying that the women, this, this, have a nalurus, to be a lander to be a pedic, whatever he hadaping. If you had a time, if you had a context of the ramahlinguang The first is the first thing is the people is,

the people who are the first. He will be an ambassador of change that will be able to the lingquemunan the little, then if he wants to inspirations to the community that's more than that is he'll do. So, the prempuant can have a very significant role, because I said, we have a nullery, alami,

to give education and sharing. Because it's from narrate as a mother who want to educate the kids, and that's the same. So, I think, if they're about it, the area, then they can educate community, and educations, and education that population that's more-luas.

Did it, and to be police. Yeah, in-mahua. Same, ma'am, ma'am-a-wasing-an-an-a-a-law. to make up to the parents. Most of the majority of the even though, I'm not evenicil can't makechil-like-lake, of course, they do that,

but majority of the part of it is done by the people. Education, come back again, yeah, back, I'm back. I'm at least, I've always, I'm going to over on the

and I'm always, I'm going to I'm going to point about our to make up against a gooderun too. And I, too, again, guru that's been a lot of my life

there's a lot, there's a lot, and it's lecat, that, like, that, if we, you know, you,

you're, with a many, so, stakeholders, lapisance, can be being,

it's, How much what we have to be a very much for the importance of the education, the importance of the inclusion of the money, the importance of the world, the importance of things that, I think, you can play a big role

as a person and as an organization. And okay, if in Indonesia, we've had, has one woman president. Yeah, right? I'm going to take to 2004-5. There's many things we can do

and many times that we can be able to do in context women empowerment to get up to make uproar-biasa in 2004-5. How many more women presidents will we see in Indonesia? There's 24 years. That's four cycles of political,

I wish there will be some acceleration in the process. I'm not looking at 2045, but in 2004. At least, there's a candidate, Permanuant, in a candidacy for president, election. I hope that, that, in 2004. Because it's going to be the turning point, one, we've been about the gender equality has been a few years,

actually, not annais, the President we're first we're in our President, I hope in 2004 this will have a candidate women who will come minimum candidate, sure, sure, yes, yes,

so realistic, not to we can be able to see two, three, before 2045? Realistist. Realist. Realist.

On what basis? That's what basis? That's what kind of equal, and it can be still be coming that's the most important

that I said mindset population as a whole to be sure that's there's structur systematic,

systematic, so that people can look like, male, more people, so they can give them quality the best, whatever gender not a problem. That's, this I've been a lot. Now, this I've often go about aspirations of the year of 2004-5. It's not only an economy that's a big,

but also economy that's a kind, like in many things. With the culture, the beaubolitic, social, and many of them-machem-machem-like. One of the manifestations, or some of the manifestations, with the

Let's try, how much-as-ac-ac-crow, how much how much more than can be more than can be able to make making a narrative that can be more more than now

to come to 2045. We've got talked about in inclusions of money. I'm not not not heran, if we're

in time in five years to be able inclusion of the more than now that's more than 50%. On the more than the climate, I also, I think, like, the power of the women is very. I, if I'm going to bea-haelie-hally, in the world, many people, too,

that's more care, they're more than they're going toasay substansion and they want to, know, narrasic it. But if, if it's a gooda-a-bouda-it-with-it-if-it. So we're great. And then we're kind. Mammastikasks figure that

want sharing. If I think that there's still still not many and still majority, for making, what, um, inspiration for the generation that will come. I amble a example, I like the way Minister of Finance does her job,

so not only the work on the work on the money so that he's thinking, but how to inspire women. Many people. Right, that's I think, I think, it's really, by the leaders,

and inspirations more more, we need. We have to do-allon things like that. With we acknowledge, what the other leaders this will be the other than the other than what they're going to inspire more leaders to do more than the self,

or not doing it for the self, but to specific on the organization, but to the community in the more, we need, we need, very, very, very, very,

very important. Okay, but, culture or or the world, or the world, yeah, the world is, yeah, buttell.

Yeah, but that's not still, yeah, that's even that's not even to inspire, but the talk of the bit of the that is that

that's that is that must come and I think there, yeah, sir, figure figure that but, maybe,

channel is to be perluas, to be more than can more than the people other people. Okay. What else is, what's the important, for Indonesia to the end of the in the context the empowerment of women?

We've got about equal opportunities, equal, equal, much, like, equal pay, and everything. from there's other elements that, yeah, sir, if I'm, if I'm, from there's just as I'm going to ask, from the other than I'm from a lot of the other than you. How do you see us today?

Women? Yes. I think they're less empowered than they should be. Yeah, right? My sister, she runs a large multinational. Yeah, right? And that's testimony. testimony.

Testaments to what I think is possible. And the possibilities, too, many many people, maybe there's mental block, maybe cultural. Yeah, right, we've got to be a bit. And, maybe more than more than, this is all of the last I've tried to cupas, that if we're going to be

in the world and the great, we have really, tequat to make up democratization talenta. Yeah, right? And talenta,

that disregards race, disregards, gender, disregards, ethnicity, and disregards whatever,

religious beliefs, and whatever. And if we're really, tockad, to come to-and-and-demortization talenta, that we can't do institutional building.

Yeah. And that I'm not looking at that has been done by the man or a woman. So, while they qualified, irrespective of whatever attributes, we can make democratization talenta as a superna or as far as optimal,

and we can institutional building. So we don't need to be ideology. If we focus to institutional building, not a perusaan, not a ... ...noticot, not whatever, it's cool.

Who's in the institution that who's in the ... ... ...orusin social, ... ...and, ... ...and, ...

...and, ... is that's not that's that's been put-puped and be harnessed with good. Yes. Yeah, right? I hope, ma, there will be many organizations,

also effort that's done by the where to acknowledge that you said that you've said, inclusion and diversity. Not only acknowledge, but to make an action that inclusion and diversity is something that has to be used to be.

It's a lot of it's going to be able to be able to be able. I hope that's more organizations like that, the government also, as we're as a community-loas. This is to apply in all levels, in some level, to make a new one of a perubahance that, actually, positive.

Right. And the Icaan our in our own kind of our own kebinaika, yes, that's really, really, really, sure, irrespective of differences in appearance,

differences in beliefs, differences of whatever. And if we're really, I see, I think, if we're more able to look the more than the men's

to end up to the young people that will be more than the quality ideas creation, and that it will be the real democratization of talent yeah, not even we're mampet, like, be idea. And we have a model that's great, We can be a very great nation to be

very good model that's just that's in there. Education is to be a part of the important. Dapacus't, that I said, have special interests in education, you too. And, yeah, if you too. Yeah, you're really, you're very, you're very, to be in front of the education.

There are some of the other? I hope the right mindset, I hope that they're equal. And I hope that many organizations that then, and give them, and for the attention and diversity, and make effort that's right that's not just the lip service,

but it's really, but what I'm doing, like what I've done in Sampona, so there can be opportunity for the people to continue to be per-peran and to develop the pran not only for the organization and the environment but I hope for the country,

Amen. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Thanks a lot. and that's all right. Thank you. Endgame is a podcast by the School of Government and Public Policy Indonesia. The first Indonesian policy school to offer a full-time master's program in English. And it's a production of the cinema, Indonesia's award-winning entertainment and technology company. Oni Jamhari and Angad Wima Sassonko are our executive producers.

Ahmed Zaki Habibi and Jimmy Kuntoro are our supervising producers. Hannah Humayra and Farah Abida are producers. Bobby Zarqasi is our director. Aditya Dema Pratama is our director of photography. Video editing by Felicia Wiradiya Wira Sussanto is our sound engineer. Prateri Prati Pratiwi Prateri Pratiwya Raghmwati are research assistants. Aulia Septiadi and Ferbizal Optama are our graphic designers. Transcriptions and Transcriptions and Transcriptions

by Isfi Afiani. The song you're hearing is by Neil Giuliarso, Ferdinan Chandra, and Philippus Chahyadi, mixed and produced by Gibran Wiriwaiiwai. The production of this episode adheres closely to the local authorities' health and safety protocols.