Endgame with Gita Wirjawan - Iman Usman: Good Enough is Not Enough

Episode Date: January 13, 2021

Iman Usman, salah satu pendiri platform pembelajaran berbasis teknologi terbesar di Indonesia Ruangguru, bicara mengenai me-mainstream-kan minat baca, berpikir kritis, dan ‘growth mindset’, dalam konteks misi sakral mengejar ketertinggalan pendidikan.

The problem is, the problem that we're living and we're not just living in, like, like, like, like, not catac in the tempurong, that's just, yeah, just mutter here, just, just mutter here,

but, but there are variables other than we can't control the other like how, like, how much, trend like what, evolving taste, so, so, at the end-acted

if you're not continuously hacking, what's actually is, we are not gonna be relevant anymore. This is end game. You know, Hi-Man Usman, my friend of my friend of my and also co-founder

from Rueuru. Iman, thank you. You're welcome, on the podcast Endgame. You're welcome, my pleasure. I want to go about when we're small before we're going to

talk about things more substanti. Lakhir in Padang on 21 December T-N-1-Termin-1. That makes you Sagittarius. Yes.

Because I'm sorry Sagittarius. And I'm just sooc-b-than-day. And calm, but tajem. Tell me, what's about. So, I'm like, so I'm from the last in Padang, I'm from six of six of the other

from the other. So, my father, so, so, so, that's a lusan-a-n-lossan-S-P, I'm a lusan-a. So, actually, when you're saying, well, you're doing in education.

Sometimes people are people who are you? Well, what's the other people? Yeah, yeah, annautka, just a lot of people. And, actually, to come to the end up to the education, it's quite an outlier, because in my own,

actually, I'm the first in my who have got sarjana. So in my own, not the meaning, not the meaning, but maybe not the thing important, if there's a thing

that's the prioritizing, yeah, maybe other, so, So I'm, I'm going to in the community that, but at the same time, also, gives many of the other

to make sure to what I'm going to that's what I'm going to get into what, because I'm not really I've got enough freedom, I have a room that's enough of

to explore, to actually, to actually, to actually, can't get along to where, and, can't really firm,

know, So, so, how do you know, how to look at you all this? So, because I'm also the other than I'm... Because I'm also the child. I'm trying to try to be... So, interestingly, yeah, so, maybe, this is,

this is the person, that, oh, this is the most the manja, it's always, like, so much, if you're all, but at the same time, because, also, because, you know, and the other one of the other,

with other, so there's expectations to how can take care of the family. And, and that's what's going to be more and more dis-indered, because, you know from the little bit of the time that, okay, there will be a time where I have taken care, so that identity,

that, that, it's, it's, many of the way of thinking, of my own way of my own And maybe, it's not just not just, so, if there's anything, I'll go to this person. If I'll go to this person. If I look at the prestation of their

is a great, from from S&P, SMA, and college, that's bingun, is, I'm thinking and to make and the dimension where. Because you're not only active, but activists. Yeah, right? That's activism that you've rancol

that you've got rancol this long, it's must expose you with many things. So, maybe, if I had, I'm interested in art, so I'm interested in arts, I'm interested in art, I'm interested in the art, I'm interested with film, I'm attracted with technology, and sootusiness,

and if, and if I never, I mean, I'm not just about about, okay, I, that's scop just in just here, or I'm just here just in here just. that's maybe because, because not know, not to picketan, what is promising, what is the more the more is more than more than

the more than what is more than then you're doing, and you're doing, and then, maybe, not, yeah, because, because,

I'm, so, so, so, not, so, the time, and, I'm,

And maybe I was also who, what, what, that's the time, when I'm actually, I can actually be good at this, you know, actually, that's, oh,

that's, that's, whatever, what will be being, versatile enough, that, able to, able to be flexible enough,

to be able to be good to the whole I'm actually there, there's a few episode, that can be able to you,

and that's been taking point, or even even, even, even, try, let's tell it, one or two. Okay, so there's, maybe two, maybe, that's quite, yeah, maybe, that's quite, so, that's a major,

when I was in 2006, so, so, so, I was in the linguongan, where I, I was diddick, if the result, that's not going to inanat-usah so, if you, if, if, if, if, and I'm going to do you,

I'll get what you want, and then, so I'm from the S.D. S.M.P., I'm going to this mantra works. Because I've learned, yeah, I'm a joara-class. I'm sure. I'm going to win a lomba, or I'm going to be.

So I never think that, okay, if I'm going to go to go to the school, and then, I'm not going to be taken to, like, no, no, no, no, no, no, because I know, I'm going to belaj. So, so, when that, that, in 2006, when that, when,

when I was in school, it's like to do with a time, I'm not even if people are like using using the answer. Like, everyone's using the answer. I don't know from where it's got it, but everyone has got to get it, but I'm going to get in the USMP, nilay it's a good,

9.2 or, or, rata, so I thought it was enough, for I could, I was enough, for, there was 10, there, there's, there, and I don't know, I can't be in English, but why can't be 10,

like I can't like, like, not ever muncule, but why can't be 10? Now, in the same-circuit, I'm going to school that I'm in the Urundtta, which is 2. So I'm a second number 2, between solution 0.01. So, it was,

maybe, for some of the other, that, can, you know, can be to school that but for me, it's like, like, kind of, I'm then, the position, where, well, I've, I actually,

and I actually delivered a good result, but why I can't I can't get what I want. So I was frustrated, and I was prepared, okay, all right, maybe, maybe to the other than just. But, in-sing-a-there-like, and I'm going to get-to-the-out. But, in the day of the orientation of the

student, I just realized that's got to be 320. So there are 60 people who are left, the way, the other people who are in the other people, there's a child of the other, Guru, like, for you know, it's all that. That's all. And what's in my mind that was, I'm not

I'm not thinking, oh, this is how I'm going to be the simple expression that I can't imagine until I'm really, and what I was that I'd come to to the room of the school I then, I said to know who's the school, he also not know who's who I'm, I'm a new, pa,

class 10, there's what, there, there? I'm, now, technically, the person's the most bad, here, and I'm almost not to come to come in here. If there's not any one who's not even when it's

why it's just to be around, where, because I'm going to say, technically, I'm the most basically I'm the most of the most but I'll beautee to Bapa. I'll go back one. Then I banting the door. Draft, sir, ma.

So I'm bunting the window, and then I'm going to be at that moment, three-torn school, I'm going to look at it like I'm going to be a good reason, yeah, for, for saying that I'm going to, but at that, I think of the time I was, how I think I can't be able to this place in this, I actually pantasar in this. And, I was, I'm from the SMA,

I'm going to be like 30 or 40, like, like, like, not just in Padang, because Padang not just not many of the borg. So, I'm to Jakarta, I'm to China, I came to Malaysia, to Singapore, Lomba. And, I'm actually, I'll lose, uh, UJANNational is number one, Sumatra-Barad, get-a-u-I-sebelung-lose,

or anything, anything, it's the situation, like that, and that's what I think that's that, I think, that's, oh, um, so, um, but,

but, maybe there are things that out of control, and one of the one of the that you are bad. But it doesn't mean that you are bad. So, maybe that's one of the one of the That's one of one of the one. You know, when you're at the

school? No. Wow. So, when I read the book of my so, yeah, there's like this. There.

So I was, so I'm vocal and active, but I'm not much about about like, like, struggle, or what I kind of

I'm, because I'm not not going to make more than more, so, And that's, and same, like, like, like, like, I'm going to make a room guru,

like that I was, so, I was, like, when I was, I had everything on my pocket. I was, I had everything on my pocket. I was lulles, I'm still up for presation national, I'm at least cum laude, I lulled, I lulles three-and-tah-tah-tah-half-tah-tah-lough.

So, I've never just cupu-cupu-cupu-lough, but I'm sibook-b-buck-bank, So, I do everything that people tell me to do. So I never kept in that if I'm going to do, that's not ever to think that if I'm going to work, but when I was, and I was going to work what I'm I'm trying to do with the world of the education and I was thinking,

okay, if I'm going to do with an issue of the education, or what I'm going to do with people who know about but never have a problem in the class that's like what. And, I think, okay, the one of the most of the same is the guru. So I'm going to be a new to be a few places,

and I'm going to get to get me, man, many of the other things. I'm not overqualified, there's been able to be able to be. So I'm okay, I get to remember. Then I'm not just that just I'm going to say,

I always make anything I'm doing something, I'm founding organization, making communities, so I'm thinking, so, I'm, maybe I'm, I'm,

I'm, I'm, not, I'm, I mean, why I'm just, I'm going to be boss, like how much. So I've got to be a bit of some nonprofit, even to some of the same. Singat-true, and it was very frustrating.

Borderline embarrassing, because my friends my kind of already started working, and people ask, and people, anticipate, like, you, abys' what's this, and at this,

and at that, I'm then I'm depressed a little, because I'm kind of, okay, what is wrong? But then just the point that, that's what then that's the main inspiration

I got, and then we're going to be able to and then go back, and then after school, and then, and then then,

then, so, so, if I'm going to look like, titic, lowest point, yes, it was not a pleasant experience, but at the same time, I know that when it's in position it,

it's actually being turning point for something that's more much more than more much more than I, when I read, I don't think you, I don't get to be taken as a guru, yeah, right? And what I'm curious, if you're not

to, if you're not to the SMA, if that, it was still 260, 20, not 262, plus 60-1. Would there be a Rwang Guru? Interesting. Maybe, yeah, or maybe not, that's not, in the, in a tundacutip,

I'm, maybe can still be being able to be in U.I, but the drive-notes better, yeah? Bedea, yeah. Jail, more little. Because I'm not more, settle.

I mean, no, there's situation where there has been out of control of my, and that then, it's then, to be more, more, what, like, more, more, more, prepare for things that I can't dogg, like, yeah. Okay, when you're

fanatic about Harry Potter. I, I, I, I, can't, I can't even know. And, try, yeah, and I want to know the room where you the one of the most of the other people.

So, well, if at home, not can't take the most of the most, but, can, it's the fact where? If I've been doing test, but as a fan, as a consumer, where's the most of the most of the grand? Griffin, Nor, like. This is, I'm going to tell you,

something, Griffin's door, with Robin Klood, but, actually, Griffin's North, but anyway. But it's, it's, I think I'm going to be able. Because I, if I'm like genius, that's kind of, that's not. But I think I'm going to be able to be able,

and at the same time, I'm pretty loyal. Grit. Grit, and persistent, bodeo amad just. You're playing street smart, so, so, yeah, because, again again, back again to the question. I, and I used, I used to from, from, from, from, from,

But I was in the time, I was really, but I was actually, actually, actually, I'm at least, I'm at least, this, Harry Potter,

in my job, that's, and it's, it's, like, book, or, did, or did, give, or did, give, or,

then, there, at my job, , and then, I'm, cause, I'm, because, I'm, all the book in-the-the-the-mach,

so, I'm, And I was intrigued because, this time it's the same way, it's like, wow, this is like, this is like I'm like I've never seen before this, this is what,

so, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, and I'm gonna do that, right from number two, can, back from the number one, and then,

after after something, I'm, I'm all out, so, so, so, I'm gonna bother and so, I, actually, I'm not-sabaran, because, you know, we're not going to,

like, you know, so, like, must be a year, two-torn, to be termed to get termed. So, I'm at the first, the book, if I'm not wrong, or the four, yeah. When I was, I bought the version English, it's,

mahal, it's, it's, just, you've, to buy a book this, and I, and I, I read, I'm not getting up with a camus. So, I'm not going to go to two years. So I'm going to be able to do. There's a big of English, but there's more than I don't get more than I'm not really.

So literally, I've got it's a lot, because, this is what, it's one. So that's one. So, that's one of the one of the contogne. Then I, I'm, I'm interested in collect the merchandise Harry Potter, like. But, right? Where?

Where? Like, where, like, where? Like, where's, like, where, like, where, like, where, like, not there? No, no. No, no, no, there. So,

then, I'm, like, I'm, like, to, like, to the other, to Jakarta, or to Jakarta, so I'm,

so I'm trying, merchandise, to Jakarta, I'm to, I'm gonna, I'm, to come, there's,

some, there, there, there's no, there's that I'm gonna, ya, well, yeah, if there, if I'm gonna, so, so, this, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, so, I'm gonna gopickrard, so, so, so, I'm gonna think,

so, so, we'll edit the bagelan. Okay, so, so I've been, back to, I hired the Jihad, I've been jubah. I make jubah,

I make jubah, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna puttukes, I'm, I'm gonna, like making magic wine, and then I make pin pin, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna photo, whatever,

and then I just wanna do it, just gonna be business just, so, so I got, and there's been there, there's been in the market place, so I'm gonna, like, like, making shipping process like what, packaging, how much,

from, and then, I'm gonna, make events, event local, for Harry Potter cosplaying, or, or what, He's not like in Padang, so. So, I actually, I think that I've got

that I've got to do that one. So I'm saying that Harry Potter is quite influential in my life because from there I'm from English, from there's that I'm from business, learn community, how much, and I thought I was

to get, the way, so, this about sehir. And this, this, this, this, then,

yeah, yeah, so, so, so, so, so, who, who this, the talk of the most of the world in your, because, I mean, like, Mahatma Gandhi, Barack Obama, that's okay.

I'm like, Harry Potter. Because literally, that's the character that's the character that's impact and tangible to the skill I, to the same time, also, it's made me imaginative, you? You're more than character Harry Potter, or the character Harry Potter, or the

JK Rowling? The, of Jack Rowling, yeah, so. Harry Potter per se. Because if they're the character favorite of the favorite of his name, but I think the whole Harry Potter universe, yeah, that I'm making sense that, oh, everything is limitless. Like, everything is possible, at the same time it's influence me.

Who do you think would be the Indonesian equivalent of JK Rowling? Oh, wow, so sorry. because there's also a different from Jayne Rolling, but, but... but... Controversial, because of Jake Rowling. But...

I would say, Karekaresma Di Lestari. Top. Top. So I would say, D.Lestari, because it's also... That's top of mine. Beto. I would say, De Lestari.

I would say, De Lestari. She's coming on the show later. Oh, okay. But... Imagination is a lot of-biasa. Okay, fast forward. Then, then, so I'm going to university in 2009,

so I was 2013, yeah? Right. And then what's a good question. Because, that's a good question. So, that's not ever out of out of country, or I think of out of the 2007.

I've got a puttokera to learn to AFS, to Japan. But this, so, there's, So there are some, there are some, there's a problem. The first, can't,

like, I'm like, like, I'm, like, I'm, it's not a sort of, but I'm,

I'm not sure achievement that makes me that I'm actually good, because I'm actually like, what is wrong, and that,

and I'm saying, I'm saying, I'm saying, I'm saying, so I'm putee back, so, I feel like school, with a full scholarship,

to say that's then, yeah, I'm actually not bad, there might be something wrong, but I'm not actually bad, just, that's one, but I'm not really, and I'm not really, it's actually an escape,

for me, I'm actually, actually, I'm actually, where, yeah, maybe, not even, not even, not even, but, maybe, now,

people, I'm, but I'm, where I was sader that there, at least, at least, people as an age of my, look up to to me, and I'm active to where, so there are certain expectations

that are you're saying, oh, you're going to be like, oh, I'm going to be this, and I'm saying that I'm not saddened I'm doing for many machoanot that because public pressure, and I'm not,

and I'm not that I'm just from all from all the higar-binger and it's from attention of people, even though I just felt like to be afraid of people, and I think one of the other one of the other one of the other one, I think I'd like to go to where I'm going

to try to live in New York, that's like, oh, if Stanford, in Palo Alto, kind of a desa, even though you think it, but also not desa, like, Cambridge, at Harvard, you really like,

like, because New York, now, the city, that's a big, yeah. If you're like to like Harry Potter, to Oxford. OXFord. Dullo's about it's like, yeah, I'm not so much with program the studio there.

So, it's like, so, like, yeah, it's, yeah, to, yeah, so, so, so, so,

then, two-town, so, so, so, so, so, because, because, when it was,

making Ruong Guru is, when I'm at Columbia, Belva, at Stanford. So, we're LDR, make RUWRU This, and we hire people in Jakarta before we're going to be run-out, so we're committed, so not just not just as well asar-asaran.

So, so, so, 2013 or before, Yeah, So, so we have had idea,

that's in the time I'm taking behind, while at least in McIncee when I'm going to be doing, So, three-bulan, before we're going to work school, we've got to work in a work-in, then we hire people, we from America, we're

in. So, every night, I'm, in here, in the time so, every night, I'm in there, I'm doing, making, orancang Rwur-Niqa-gimana, design product, and, you know, and then, that, okay, this is something that I can work on. So, I'm trying to get-upett-in the classed the classed the classed then then, then, then, so that actually can full-time in Jakarta.

Why Belva? Why Belva? Yeah, so founder that I'm... Or, maybe I'm gonna, Iman. Oh, that's just trying to be there, like, no, there's no other. If I, if I,

so, I, like, so, I remember, I've ever did I'm with one of one of one mentor I, when, first, don't focus on what you're doing but you're working with what you're with what? Because from there, actually, can be much of the other than

I'm even though I'm going to be able to my but I'm two years ago, but I'm amazed with him. He also came from nothing, he worked very, very hard, one of the hardest working person I've known, pinter, very strategic, when what's what he has,

at the time, I had the skills that I had the skills that I had the skills that I don't have, how I think, if I'm going to be with BELVA, as a partner. So I'm rather, honestly, I'm, of course, I have, to have, and I'm interested,

because it's something that I'm passionate about, but I think it's also the fact that, oh, I'm going to be working with Belva. And so I'm seeing that it's as learning opportunity, growth opportunity, which I know that I was that I didn't get what I didn't I don't know technology.

I think I heard startup that first time when Belfar making Rung Guru. I never heard before. I didn't know that I'm not going to do fundraising, I have to get to investorsing, I have to do something like what, I never can't even. So I just jumped in, because I think this is going to be a great work

learning opportunity for me. And then, after I'm going to go ahead, while school, so race is a little bit of a little bit of school, I just realized this. I can see this becoming big, I can see this helping people. So, I can see this, you know, I'm going to just, like, I'm just looking, okay, I'm,

but I can bring to the table, what do you bring to the table? What do you bring to the table? So I think a few things, so I think, a few things, so, so if I'm going to be it's a good combination of a startup founder, a hacker, there's hustler, there's hipster, they're like,

Delva will be a hacker and a hustler. Hustler's a more like strategic, strategic, like businessmen. I'm a street smart, so I get things done. I'm hustler, who's really to go to the market, or to go to where, I don't mind, and slash hipster.

So, I'm very interested with design, what the product Al-Ruang Buru, I bring a lot of network from tutoring, their tutor-in-it-tort-y, which, maybe, for now, it's not relevant, too, but, if, well, it, ultimately, it's complementing is there.

And I enjoy communicating with public, with public, talking to external partners, bring external parties on board, what's what's the most of the world? What's the first, the one of the world? Right, right? Right.

And, well, business plan is there. And what, what, I think, I think, I think, having good idea alone is not enough, that, oh, you might have a good idea, you might have a good team work,

but, but, but, not even the market response. And when it was, it was, so, right, like, now, the model was a market place for guru private. So, like, GoJack, or Grapp, but this, this, or, you're getting a guru private. So, we had to then, to scale, that, it's,

it's, it's really hard, because, it's dependent, supply that's very limited, which is good. So, actually, this is good, we're generating revenue, and at the same time we help people, but one, that this is very targeted to affluent group, because that's actually afford,

just people are certain, and the two is very hard to scale. So we don't get the scale that we are looking. And it's actually, and there are things that are working, there are things that are not working, and sometimes I'm thinking, I think that is this like, like, is this what I'm going to do,

so, so, there's such a kind of like that. So, there's a certain, not, you're going to give up? Or, like, make-mikir just, to give up? Mikikki, but, like, okay, I'm like, if this, or this, I'll give up,

because I'm not, I thought, it was, like, what was the worst thing that could happen, if I even fail doing this, almost nothing, so, I mean, I'm just, I still, I'm just, I'm just, and one other, maybe, that's all the last of the other is because you're just nobody, right?

So, so, I'm just, I'm very, when we're making product, product, we're trying to convince, I can personally, so, whatever that's the team I've done to do I've been in. I'm having customer service,

I must get to come government, get to school, and I've got to one, that's a story, this is like, this year two, Rwanguru. I'm gonna, I'm jane, I'm gonna'n't one of one of the governor, in one of one of the area,

I don't say to be it, I don't even say in the name. I was jane, and I was gonna'n't, and this, we're not gonna'n't, actually, it's already, it's just, just, it's just, I can't, y'all, this, I'm just, maybe, I'm just, I'm gonna, get up meeting, I,

I'd get to the time, the janees'n's nine, I came to come to my, so I'm with one of team's we, we're, we're, He was just to go, and then, I'm going to take, and I'm going to take,

and I'm going to get in, but I'm doing to do with, there's many of them to come, until just to run before I'm going to time at least, time two,

so I was at the time I think, I'm going to I think, I'm going to I'm going to and I'm going to get to the room and then, then the first

what's the boss's where? because they're getting here, this, there's a little, and I guess, you know, not there, just like, just, not just, no, like, with a meja, just, right, right, but the boss's where, and then, and then,

this, pa, who, who's, you know, that, you know, I noticed the, what, the, what, I'm, like, it's, like, it's, like, oh, this, like, you know, there, and then, there, there's,

there, there's, oh, nought, he's, this, this, this, this, So yeah, sheans, this is this, this, he'd be taken. He'd just, then I have meeting, right, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, what I'm saying, what's going to last for one minute.

The meeting only lasts for one minute. And then, he went, oh, I'm also there's agenda, and then I'm going to talk with team this just, yeah, right, after that I'm going to be with spalinas. Not just, not just kadiv,

kind of, what, there's kind of, and it's just like, not until five minutes, oh, yeah, then, you know, if you're just, yeah, then, if you're just about, it's very formalities, just. Then I'm going, out,

then I'm going to say, like, like, I'm going to like, like, I'm going to like, like, I'm going to, like, you know, it's okay, like, yeah, we're who, we're, what, we're, what, we're, what, we're,

try to calm my, my team, but at the same time, I'm really, and, um, and, um, so, yeah, that, so, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm not going to be like that,

or there's a story of, I've got to meet investors, and then, this I remember, series A, investor, I know investor since from now. I'm saying, oh, this is a room guru, this, I'm going to, this I just, I'm going to series A.

Then, he asked one, one acronym, that I, I've never heard this acronym is what is what? What I'm like, what I'm being bingue. So, like, what do you mean? What do you mean? What I mean?

What's the idea? But he's not going to say, oh, you do not know that? You do not know this? If that, how do you want run company or or whatever, like that he said, it's just the same with daily active user. But he's not the EU,

so he's, he's like I don't know what I'm not I don't get it, so, I think you need to read more. Like, you need to read more. Like, you know how to look good, you know how to go to Amazon, look at rating. If the rating of four,

five, it's the tannily book, book, good. If you're not book good. So, you know, better, more, if you can't, you can't, then, I'm, good, yeah,

good, but I'm like, like, in a way, like, you know, that, like, I, I'm not even so I'm saying, I read it from Columbia, I read it from Columbia, I read a lot of books, you I bought probably more books than you, but not even can't even be able to, but, that, it's real, that's

that, that, that, that, it's real, that. That's really, that people, for whatever reason, because, because of the umur, or because status, or because of the different of the unethappoan, or whatever position you are in, And that, that kind of gajarin me that whatever position you are in, it doesn't justify you to look down on people and to undermine people, because you never know, that.

So, yeah, yeah, you're missing out. You're missing out on our Series A. But life is a humbling experience. Oh, it is a humbling experience. And in the world of ushaha, it's, it's... Oh, yeah, it must be. Yeah, right.

You got a... You have to have a thick skin safe. Yeah. But it's really, you can't, you can be able to get episodes of episodes like that, and just through things like that would be inflexy, right?

Yeah. Maybe fast forward a little. This, this, angupla-scalability issue is already at the first, the first of the

time in the Rueue the Rwang Guru, if we're at the end, we always we're still doing scalability, profitability. Covee, do we talk in two contexts to the two contexts. To the time, in the past, so maybe,

people are people, people think, the, the, intinginging that scalability and profitability or growth and profitability that's not a concept in hand in hand,

but I think I'm actually can hand in hand. I mean, okay, of course, like, like, there's people who need to grab the market first, try to be the leader in the market first, and then sacrifice the profitability aspect of it, and then, I believe, everything needs to be calculated.

So, not just, it's just burning just, just, it's not it, not it's, it's not it, it's not about, customer acquisition cost is mahal, yeah, and the market it, but, but, so it's still calculated, So, you must know what is your margin, and why is your margin? And why CAC then justify that?

Or, or, what is your retention number look like? So, actually, it makes sense to then to then, you can afford CAC that's a more, so, that's something that we religiously, like, monitor in the Wung Guru, so we don't want as well as well that, But at the same time, we know in the context of Rwang Bure,

especially the last two years, we invested a lot in brand and building the trust to the market. Because we know that education is not commodity. This is not a business that, where differentiator, one product and product other is just price. So if people give a higher, then people can't. If education, it's not.

Harvard is Harvard. So I can't say that, oh, I've been making like, like I'm like Iman's University, and it's like Harvard, and I charge 10 times lower, and I expect people are going to me instead of Harvard, like, it's not even Harvard, so we can't even in addition to our content, our product, we need to invest in brand,

and that is why for the past two years we invest a lot in building the trust to the public, getting the brand out there, so people aware with our brand that so, yeah, in the condition of the current, people, if you know, if it's like, online learning is almost synonymous to to Rwang Guru, like, it's about it's about.

And it helps, and it's, it's, it's, it's, less aggressive, like, in terms of, marketing, or, because brand's already, but, yeah, it's calculated, and it makes sense, because, also, business model that, that's,

that's, to make make us to know-and-it-that doing like that. I will not do that if, if, if, if we're just like 5% it's not worth doing. But, it's not, okay, like, let's not there price elasticity. Right.

How you're you're making the samebanger between elitism and outreach to masses? Right. This is something that's something that's because,

because, if I'm doing their own due diligence, and making research, they always say, why are you charging so cheap? They're, they're making it so much. Because if they compare even to India or to China, that's maybe market is relatively similar, there's not there's a high for what we're talking.

And from their study of their, they got about willingness to pay it's actually actually, why you're charging here, but I think it also goes back to our mission, we mean, we're making a product that is affordable. We're not making product that's for free, because we're not public education, education, and we're actually delivering value, and we don't

also the product in devalue, and we've never tried at all, when giving us free and everything, engagement is very low, people are not taking seriously, people are taking it for granted, and then, but with, but, yeah, that, so, so, it's, so, it makes sense for, as a business, but, at the same time, how do we go for impact? And, and, and, and,

we come up with business options that's making product that has tiering and has audience of their own. So, we have product that's targeting to mass, that's maybe, the more, but if people are willing to pay more, we, we also have product for that segment, because if I'm at least this,

this is, at least, school, that's more, it's too elitist, so it becomes a luxury good instead of a public good. And I'm a quite a critical good. Because, just to, we can get the education that's that's not be percepticant as luxury good. Yeah.

Not even to say, but that, if it's, if we look, if we look, inflation, in schools, the school's elitist, is not much more than the ill-itance-rate. And not even greater than inflation rate. And not simple, but while the quality of the quality of the education is also the most the higher than 30 years ago.

But the higher tuition has now the higher-and-perts or a lot of percent. And that's actually, that's actually, it's actually, many people who think, people who are people who are people who are who are who are who are who are who But if we look at the demography of subscribers of our

70% that's never been meaning of learning from from the bottom of the economy menh and to beaweh. And, after we think it makes sense, because, for them, they don't have any other alternative. So, if you're mampu, maybe they can buy private tutor one-on-one, why would you, this, you, like, if you'd, like, if you'd, like, if you'd,

but, if you're, like, if you're not, they're not that, you know, this is my only hope, like, that's, like, and we're then, we'll get that, then, you know, it's an argument of technology, or a equalizer or divider, but when, if, it's actually equalizing access, it's actually equalizing access,

and, actually, the people who, that, that's really, it's really, it's really, so it's really going back to my personal experience, Because I was, I was that was in U.I, I was in the year I was in the year, the number of Massachusetts from Sumatra-Barath

that's from U.I, it's just 40-hundred. Wow. From total? How many? From, from... From, or... ...darthur or... ...dardtor maybe 10,000 or how,

that, like, you know, just 40... Oh, for one-ting-a-one, from one from the provincy. Wow. And it's shocking. Because, Mr. I know, we can we all that's all right,

we check from from school where, just 43 or 40. But maybe the kind of the of the from from from the from from from from from from even, but we're talking about, that's, I'm bringing it, that's the school,

that's, one SMA in Jakarta can give them one 100 people, how about a story of a school can get him more than one province, I'm just, it's ridiculous, and

and then, and then, it's stillsury, like, and when you're looking like profile, this is the people who have access to bimingan, learning, or who have access to this, and, and, and, if,

if, if, actually, we're not even with technology, we're going to be able to come, so, and then, so, I'm going to try cupas a bit,

in, in the context of COVID, or context COVID, this, can, it's the more How does that make you much bigger, or bigger, or more the more, the more, the more, the more,

the more than the amount of course there's growth, but, because we've got used user-based that's not enough, demography, so, maybe, instead of exponential, more incremental, like, it's in a lunch without our target, target, but maybe what I'm more the more than what I'm

unlike, maybe in many in India, or in China, or in which, maybe, when, when, just, just to sort of COVID in this, people, like, all kind of, like, I need to study more,

just through, because the pressure is probably getting more intense, then otherwise I can not catch up, if I just, if I'm, people, people,

well, in Indonesia, which is a bit concerning for because, and I'm a lot of learning doesn't really happen, especially this year, and it's a bit worrying, because I'm not saying anyone, because, like, first, like, in school, I know a lot of teachers are working very, very hard, they're adapting, they're adjusting,

but it's also, and there's also, that's also, if it's just, if it's just, if they're just not just, So, it's not just PR, don't, give a P.R, don't, and actually, because model that's just, the idea, what is the immediate solution, what is the immediate solution?

What's the case? So people just go to Internet, let Google, get, look, what, every answer is there, copy, paste, nalach 100, and that, and that's actually, there's software, like,

can detects. But, right, but there's also, there's other, oh, how how much the way that's that's not to detect copy paste that's not like that. But I heard there's software that's

that can detect. Well, yeah, there's... But right, but there's, many who can't have able to have capabilities to do that. So, actually,

even, I mean, questions just many multiple choices, so, not there, so, in a way, that, you know,

get immediate result, without actually, making significant And it's actually, so I'm not quite because it's because it's not going to have great and not not got got a growth mindset, like, so I'm, so, so, if, if, if, maybe,

if, if, maybe, if, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, going to go back, like, school, like, to go back, like, that, I'm going to, that's really, that's very,

that's going to be bong, because, and realizing, that, that, six-month or seven of the last, maybe,

Okay, I'm going to push on this. I'm not too much about profitability, but scalability, but scalability, again, because we have a keypentingan, so that more people in Indonesia to be educated, or be a good good, if I'm not saying scale is important for a country like Indonesia.

One again, if it's in context COVID-19, this, can connectivity, really, it's very much, we-fi, or broadband, or 4G, minimum, can, can, it's still in the desert. Yeah, right. And that's not can't be able to be abate in a time of the time.

One, two, physical mobility also, that's even to be able to be vaccinated. Right. that it's maybe it's going to be able to two, three time at least. Yeah. Now that's, how that?

Yeah, so, so, on accessibility. We're at all in Ruralmuru, too, about how much more than how much more and more accessible, and it's more,

and it's all of many, the one, how, how, how, consumption data in our data, in our own private theory algorithm that we've built our own private theory algorithm

that's compresses compresses but not compromising on quality. But, it's still to go to 4G, at least. Yeah, but, can, they can download so if we can, if we can't get them internet, they download, so, we can not be in the condition of offline. So, like, like, like, some, like, video on-demand, and, one.

Then the second, we're also looking offline capability, but not, not then sacrificing copyright, or, miscarriage, and, like, and, like, thinking about really, thinking about offline, because it's not being able to be able to make people who are still offline. And the third, how do we push for more partnerships? Atkernia, to stakeholders'-related, so, actually, with provider,

making it's a more ramah, and, and so-stress. Then the other than the fourth is how, how we've done this is, we've done this, so, even in the kitap, called the Rue On the Go. So there's USB, it's connected to mobile phone,

but, so, so, when he's going to watch the video, the video is loaded from this USB. But USB this is encrypted, so if they're not, if they're using the USBs to laptop or to device that line, he can't not be able to beca this file

file in this, and this we've been used in the area of 3T. So, they're many people, they're giving in, for example, the kids in Atambua, like, they're,

they're using one TV, but they're just malem, because the electric is there is just a lot of the class, they connect to one, and they're both of them from, so, and,

and many things that we're actually, we're really, we're actually quite creative, I mean, I'm thinking how, actually, so, it's still to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to behexed. It's just, it'll be more than,

if, if, more people who can facilitate it, so, that is more, making, moumukkinkin. Okay, I'm going to doong again, me, about stem. Yeah, right, I mean, I'm going to be about how we can, ... ...

What's your view? Yeah, so, I mean, I think it's to doong stamp erat, kaitanedat kind of to draw, how, and how, it's really, root from that, that's right from, how it's going to build a more scientific, who's not even with hoax, that, that, actually, can data-driven,

that, and, actually, there, and, actually, when we want to say, we want to make the same time, it's also at the same time, how it's mainstreamed stem. So, not just looking at stem as a singular subject or a singular sector, but then, there's a connection with sectors

that other, how, like, interlinked with literature, how interlinked with arts, and, so, things like, that, which, I think, actually, so, it's not-cal-penting. Then, the two is,

it's actually, it's also, because not the punky, our people are not being... I don't know, this is a bit transactional. So, I mean, when I'm going to do this, so what? What will I get in return if I do this?

So, must be coming to there's effort that significant to how to how to show that career in the stamp is very promising, as much as we want to say that, you know, education is not for employment, and, and, and, and, but at the same time, we need to think about it,

about it, about it, so it can't be any more obvious. Yeah, right? Yeah, can't be more obvious, yeah, right? Yeah, but, but, but, can, what's the problem is, is, when, then, then, sample, role model,

that, then, then, then, it's also, I still remember, from, from, from, like, from, like, from from-a-pand-a-pans, P&S, but, because it's not so. Okay. I want to what extent do you mold that in your business model?

Yeah, right? If in the room guru, we want to, we'll go-grap, that's more heavy at STEM. That, of ternetorpeg, by perception of the people's large. If at Padang, it, that, the PNS,

than non-PNS, but that can be able to be able, through pipa. Can't go. That's, there? No, that's, there's not. So, if we're gonna do you know what, so the first,

we try to bring it into practice. So, like, why, you know, why you're doing about, like, why you're doing about about the relevance, what, this, relevancy,

in, in, the way, in the case, in what, so one, someone, not to learn something abstract, just. The other,

about, I mean, education about options career, people even about, oh, and even, even if they're going to learn what, what's going to do, what's going to do.

So, so, then, we know that , we're going to be there's many people who are who maybe who've come in industry,

and also, maybe not have necessary skills, especially in the area STEM this, so, we're going to actually, focusing on and hard skills, in the bidsam

the other than the same time that, so, actually, if they're missing out, yeah, they can catch up, like. Okay, so, now the curriculum that's the program that's that's the breakdown, where the most popular, where the not too popular.

So, if, if we're not, we're not going to go, we're going to get curriculum national. So, now there are three curriculums that we've got KTSP, K-13, K-13, revision, so there's not one unifying curriculum that's used in Indonesia.

So, even though, the idea is move to K3Base Revisy. And, maybe, now, K3Base Revising, also, there are many adjustments with the predacets, what's medica-beladjared, campus of Redeka, and,

so there are adjustments, that's happening, but if we're looking from now, actually, if you ask me, like, what is the most popular subject, like, in the, the place of the place, yeah, math and science, because, also that's that many people aren't,

so, so, so when they're in school, and if we look profile science teachers in Indonesia, it's really, that's really, that's really, we're not liking,

so we're not liking, We're not lacking the number teachers. We have 4 million gurus. As a teacher-student ratio, good. But quality, quality and relevance, and distribution. So, because he not end up-aspect-as-pike-it-it-it-and-er struggle in there,

then, when they're learning at work at a student, and the focus, finally, there, so. If we look at ranking Indonesia at Pisa, is a bit less than-a. Oh, yeah. What's your vision? Okay.

Five, ten years to the time. There's a lot of, do we can't get up top ten? Wow. Amissious, yeah? Top ten? We need to be ambitious. We're going to be Harry Potter. Kind of Harry Potterish, like.

Yeah, in five and ten years, I would say in five to ten years it's a little bit difficult. I mean, if you want to top ten. Because, so, so, so, so, let me ask you, what would it take for us to be in a top ten? So, so. This, so there's an idea by Professor at Harvard Kennedy School, named Lein Pritchard.

So he's been deletit, basically, especially, the kids in Jakarta, even not going to be in Indonesia, gettertingal with the rata of OECD, is how, and he's made that the kids in Jakarta,

to be setara as as a rata OECD, but to 128-t-tahun-tahue-d-d-you-be-d-d-d-y-d'd. Yeah, that's 20-tallon when we're just as usual. So, no, anything happens, anything that's been

that's going to, the other, that's, oh, not they said, there's research other than the other other than that's the

quality of the class 9, it's actually, when it's actually effective years of learning that in Indonesia, it's just, when,

class 12, it's just a certain with class 9. So, three-tahue is basically gone, so, he's maybe,

but, actually, as a lot of quality, same like a lusanne-SMP. And this is really problematic, yeah, how much, yeah, how much, yeah, what I think, actually, actually, and then, teacher, actually, not much, you know,

in five years, we can, tibb-tibb-tibu-fits we, and, just, so, it's just, not-bigh-bac-and-gett, we're actually talking about the whole, like, like, human capital chain, like, how do we basically recreate,

even re-create, even the teacher training before the recreat, then placement of like how, the system reward how, performance management is like what, and then re-training, upskilling, like how do we, basically, revamped this?

This is one. The other, if we do business as usual, like the latter Lans Pritchat that, it's not going to be to where because, because in the country, too diverse, and then,

then can't even be able to be different kinds of and that's where technology comes in, yeah. Yes, to interject. But,

if we're too sticky with four jute and the quality not be able to be, uh, with, with,

but with people, we can be as far as well can be able , can becaeasa. Right, right. So it's actually, how it's

so that it's actually, that's not just, because this is, because, because, because, because, because, people, it's aware, that can be able to

online and, but, people look that's just, oh, this is substitution. So, when it's online. But, actually, the effective

is, when it's the integrated, so blended learning, then how teachers utilizing data, to know, performance of the kids, how, actually,

with the technology, like, where we can learn to be personalized, we can identify where missing link or prerequisite that they're not solese. So, so, how it's how to integrations it,

and this, and this, and, and will, that's very much from from from the bank of the but, but, really,

Because if, if there's a bigjikings, but in-bawaresing that, it's a suhast. But I just as well, this, hikmahed, COVID. Because this, it's, it's, it, what, yeah, penelarassan, or streamlining

from pipanisasi. Yeah, right? And pipa-pipa that good, that's be able-daiacan. Pipa-pipa-pipa-a-bago, yeah, not be-deged. And, yeah, we focus to guru-guer who

And it's been in to the pipa that's just just we think about broadband access just in all the two titic in Indonesia, right? That's going to game changing. It's so, so, so, so, that's, I think, internet is, internet access is really key, and, and, maybe, I'm maybe, I'm theory,

it's like, it's not just like, say no more, but... Well, say no more. Yeah. But okay, like, if with this, when we can't get up top 10, in Pisa?

If we're going to be these, it's a moving target. Everybody is moving, and we're just basically staying in the same place. So, we're moving, and we're maybe

moving, but we're incremental, but, actually, I've been to so many countries, and, not just visiting the countries, but talking with students, teachers, and parents in so many places.

One thing I think I'm really can be concerning about Indonesia is about motivation of learning. So we're one of one of a country, and this is also a study, with growth mindset, the least-renas. If there's no growth mindset, you want to be like what,

it's not, not, not it's. So, and this, because, for the, for the same for the for who's also like, like, many of the mindset, is in general, in the learning, or when I'm not good at math, then I'll be forever bad at math.

I'm not able to be physical, but yeah, well, I'm not even if I can't physical. But, though, even though, actually, with hard work, with learning, it's not a condition permanent, that's not a condition permanent, okay, we've got to go brough STEM.

The two, how we can't make buching baca mucu. This, this, this, this, in the book of scalability, right? Yeah, right. Right, right.

Not just about profitability, yeah, let's just, let's just, we're going to be able to math and science, and how can't be able to book? One, is how,

I mean, actually, I'm going to make access to the books to get a more and then, and how much the activity

to be able to to be able to be something that's integrated in the process of learning. So, this is, like, this is maybe it's not just a very this is just a very much, but, like, the way of the American,

like, when people get to be class, can't be back up to beck, because approach of the pediccanness is, not just to just like, but facilitation, when people get in class, they're just actually, they're just really,

and then just goes to, how it's just to be applications in practice in practice, but with but with method or the way of our time we're very textbook heavy, I mean, really, actually, learn to memorizing, yeah,

and then, it's not to be seen as something that, that's, that's, that's, that's, integrated in the process of it, because,

because, well, it's, So that's one. The second is how, then I think I think I'm I think, I think, I'm going to give an incentive to more to the industry in the industry

literature. How do we make it more, what, what, what, what, how it's attractive for the intellectual property. Intellectual property how,

how we're going to mons about the about them, how to make conversion from books to formats or to formats, or to digital and and stuff can be more than more than, so, at the end up

supply also, and there's also, and, actually, the direction literature is being mainstream, not something that's a lot of people who who's really about literature, that's what, that's what we're doing in the room of guru,

actually that's what, that's, that's a bit of a little bit of a little bit. Because, like, when we're in Rwung-Guru, many people, to ask with us, why, why, why, why, why, why, informations the Rue, but the brand ambassador's gamer?

Or, if, this, this, artists, who, not intellectual, in the tundacutely, like, just to say that target audience my, who want I educations, just through, are people who are

people who are very I think of my own things that's that's really in many of the ECHO-Champers. If I'm like, if I'm like, I'm not why, I'm saying, like, I'm saying, like, it's a good, because it's just to be role model. But when I'm asking,

if you can relate, it's not certain, because they'll say, oh, yeah, right, yes, pagita, and school's a good, this, this, this, this, and, this, and, just true, I think, to make how much the paracapan, discourse, about the education

that's something that's mainstream. Orang, where, where, it's where, it's, he's going to be in the room, gulmonging what, yeah, not a matter. And that's what I think, that's the other, we want to try to popular-can.

And, at the end of the reduction, because we can't, I mean, to try, want to get in the same, but, yeah, but, but, I think, you can play a big role. in getting many, many people to to be in Indonesia. Because the pipa your pina you've been pervasive,

it's just massive, and just how it's just to make it make a good way to be able to bea-bac-bac-bac-buck. Because it's, it's really hard to how to get people to be able to be more to becae They're more like to look at whatever, they're in their, which is maybe catchy or what,

and it's a bigot-chamber, two, embuffer, what, yeah, asymmetry, information. Yeah, right? And that, if, I think, yeah, it's so, because,

there's so many content out there, and people are basically fighting for the same attention, And then we talk about the book is how to make it, it's just to make it, it's just, because people people are being cut, and I've got the point already,

but actually, but actually, that's the book that's more than medium and the other is because the depth because the capacity to then can elaboration, can be able to

and some of the other so, and, so it's not reducty, that's... I think, I'm thinking, like, we're going to be polarization of the talk about in many countries,

in a country, and, after this I'm by hypotesa, it's a little bit correlations or or...

or ratio this yeah, yeah, and, the more senjang, or a senjolinginging, it's more polarization. And you're called eco-chamber. Here's just want to hear in here,

that's just modern here, no, there's interaction. And it's because, it's a little, and the people can can be right from book, and that I'm a bit of a lot to be how,

so this can interact with and it's a great-upuco-and. What's your view? What's your view on that? Yeah, so I mean, so back again, one of the one of the one of the one of the access,

because, at the end, how it was the fact that core and substantial that didn't just consumption of a lot that's just, and the other, and the other is

how, it was, and it made it to make it to be relevant even I'm not really important for this. So, it's relevant for it. So, like we're going to be in climate change,

we're going to go in issues, like how do we basically mainstream that? Yeah. Yeah. There's many that have to do not about the people who don't get that's not that the number of carbon that's

that's very finite. We are in danger. Yeah. Now, I'm going to go about I often, if I give lectures, I'm going to give us to illustraising Indonesia in 2004-5, yeah, right,

25 years from here, where, okay, we can be the per-economy the first number four, we can, we can't take-tap-tankan. But what I'm imping, how we can, we can have won

five to ten Nobel, five to ten Grammy, five to ten Grammy, Oscar, top five in the Tally Olympi-Olimpiada. Yeah, right? Yeah. If we've got to be a new democracy the number three, economy the number four,

no other alasan, can, not be able, to be prestation in things that multidimensional. Now, that's correlates with education, right-based. Yeah. And, and how, Where where this is Rue to 2004? Okay, that's a good question.

I think, maybe the most of the most of the way, how, at the end up as a bit of a bunch, it's not to settle with mediocrity, and that's, at the way that we're not making meritocracy in different places, people who are in the place that are in the place that's like, and, and what I'm just, not, not, I'm not, quick, puas,

Because, this I also, I also, to, to, to, to, where, how, how much, whatever position, whatever, tell you know what we're but we have standard excellence that's same about what we'll work in. If you are right now in a finance sector, then, then, make a lot of money,

for a can't, it's good, it's as well as well as the procedure, but how how applying that same principle, that same attitude, when, if, so, to do not do with an for acar 12-a-in-in-cum in the campuong, which you do the same,

and what you do the same, and what's not, if we're all about it, this, the pran can be reductions, quality can be reductu-the-cuitousy. But, actually, mentality that, that I'm both to deliver the same excellence,

the same quality, regardless of what I'm doing, that's important, because we still, we still, we still, it's okay, it's good enough, how it's it's being a bunch of people who are not not to get-quacred with good enough,

that, that, that, actually, that's important, and that, and it, and, that, it's, it's very, with all of the narrations, we're doing what, and, and, like, because, we're then,

then, then, in, in, in, what, in, what, perception and wacana that we're big, and that's enough. But, and it's a very superficial and artificial matrix,

I mean, now, we're, even we're not number of number three, democracy the most of the most but then, it's terminated, not, in process we're in a democracy, when we're talking about, oh, we're, we're, we're, we're positive,

when people are all on deficits and and whatever, whatever, that's like, but is, is, it reflected in, in the world, in the world, so, they're, they're,

so, they're not, so, so, not even, then, then, in, that, that, that, that,

that's, it's good, that, that, that, then, , then, have, , put, , put, put, , and, you,

But, but, don't even then, it's then, it's fine, yeah, it's fine, yeah, that's it's, that, that's, and we can't see. And, we can look at Korea, right? Yeah. Yeah, right.

But, gila, you know. Sure, dance, okay, sure dancing okay, so on the laboratory, okay, in laboratory, okay, yeah, right? Yeah.

Oscar won't again. Yeah, right? Multidimensional. And that, if I'm in I think I, with great, and the craze-krat, yeah? And they're jabanin

what all. Right. The thirst for success in just about every dimension. That's, how, so, that, in Indonesia,

from Sabang, to Merok, And you've got to have pipa you're in control of the pipe that's the people that's by the people. Well, as much as I think I'm also in control towards the pipe. You can manage the pipe. And that's been a bit of the pipa. Yeah.

If I'm like to back to the other than the other than that's maybe that's more than what's really is that's not so that's not inferior, so, yeah, so there's an inferiority complex to have, wow, you know, Western is a lot better than us. So if there's, if there's, but that's like a process that incremental. Yeah, right, not exponential,

and that's very incorporated in education of their, and then, in, and then, with, and, and, and, they're, and, really, also came up again, it's also, like, right, like, right, like, but, but I think, the part of the other than

when I'm appreciations to the local creation, it's also, and I think it's cultural, and, and, we really, we have that, but I also have, really, I'm really, because I'm kind of, I'm also, I don't have the answer,

the answer, like what is missing, because what is missing, because because it's not actually from the other than who's not actually from from the other who's consuming and then, then, it's not really the other than consuming and then appreciating that, and giving them, and giving them, give them, to what what we're doing for what we're doing sometimes, if we're saying,

not always, but, but, but it's often, if you're going to look, say, many of the various, art, or, or whatever, like, oh, this is to export. This is, when we can get jatis, it's going to export. My question is,

is, because because not the day of the in the country, or because it's not our taste, which is also not, or what's, so it's, so it's always to think when we look at something, When it's when it's been to consume

in the world, it's kind of the result, that is the amount of the amount of the amount. That's what I'm asking you question, and I'm asking you question, but that's one way to look at it. But I'm going to back to the Korea. I was to come to come back

to the fabric Baja in Korea. It's in the door-mustra, there's a big bagon, it's copy of the surat-tolak-tolk. from the bank of the world. When they first time they wanted loan, and they tolake by the bank of the world. And rejection,

that's just as with your experience. Yeah, right. To be able to bemovie. Right. To make sure of the alternative, and they've got from the land, and they're now now,

the fabric of one of the biggest in the world. Is it like, is like, right? Yeah, right? Because we're gemach, ripah, loggia, you know. So, yeah, yeah, that's it. We're not ever in the condition, where, like, yeah, it's, is, is, is, is, is, is,

live or die, like, that, we can still survive, and we are happy. And that's so interesting. We're so interesting. We're not, because, when we've talked about the, like,

we are one of the bottom performers, but at the same time, we are the happiest, when they're not really, you know, when they're the kids the most happy in the it's Indonesians, like. It's amazing.

If I, if I'm, if I'm going to ask, why can't, how can't, how can't, how much the story. If I'm, because there's because there's a lot of the, so, happy. All right, we're back to

Corpola. Okay, In the five years to the back'll have pipa like the other, like, like, like, in the other, or in industry, I mean? In the world,

who's not, I think, it's not quite, I mean, how will be what about, being, the end, so, so, if,

in this, even, and maybe, because, because, who are looking at the same time, also, maybe because we're in the position where we're at now,

so people look at that, people look at this, that this is not just a sector that is not just a sector that's actually attractive, investors, are paying attention, and then, also, many people who are looking this,

so, actually, we, actually, we've seen more, more, more, more, as far as far as well as, come-uncuncuncun which is how how it's all the way to make it's sustainable and not just hysteria semata, that's. So, if I, I'm actually,

the more than how many, from the five years to the time, I'm more than how much more that will be able to be able to be able to be able to be because when I think I think it's a lot more than just, than just, you know, opportunity and, and, but passion, but passion alone is also not enough. So, that's one, that's one. Then, the other is how, it's depending on,

is, is, is, is, is, our society, also, then, be more than, and, and, and, what, what, yeah, mean, interpretatisic can that's,

so, that, it's, okay, this can be made consumption, that's just something that's a sort of incidental or even

alternative, so. So, it's and the other factor that, and the other than the other than the economic, whether it's, whether it's more

or not, but I think that in five years to to the other than, and also maybe, we're going to look like how many other than the other processes, because if we're about like the years of China or how many years in the other than India's

that, yeah, the a rhaughn't more, like, if, in Rite-sharing, there are two. In marketplace, there are about. In the penidicent,

there are about? If, if, if, if, if, how the number of the programs of local in Indonesia, the number of about 40s, but that's gonna be scale. Now, how to say,

or mindset is, you're the Facebook, not there's social networking platform number two. You're the Google, not the search engine number two. I will see, I'll see, I'll- see, I'll-

think, if you're gonna aspirative, yeah. When the last time, it's in China, because, because Google's not so, because Google's, We just two years two years, a year a year ago.

But, but, is the founders of the founders of Rwang Guru, we're going to be the only dude in town? No, because, because, again, we're talking education, the spectrums great, so, we're good at K-12, and we're also, now, now, now,

but we're not even though, there, there, there, language, There are, like there, like, early childhood, there's higher education, corporate training, even STEM, our school activities, so there are many spectrums. Now, actually, maybe,

maybe, what's interesting is how much the people who are ready nekat in things that haven't been able to this, the potential that unpep in, because, because, because of, because we're good at this, it's, it's, it's, it's,

so it's like to us. But, although, actually, diversification that, so that's, then, I think, it's like, maybe, there's one or two that but, but,

that's also what we've seen in India, or in China, in America, like in China, like in China, yeah, there are, there's, two, maybe, company that's at $10 billion

dollars, you know, in education, and, and still in sector that's same, so, so, so that's just one or two, yeah, that's remain to be seen, that's. Will there's consolidation

of the people in the community? In the peddican? Mugent, because. Because. Is it part of the of your for the thinking of your equity event, or whatever, I think,

because, If I'm, I mean, I mean, I'm saying, because, at the end, we're basically tackling the same problem. And it's not, like, as I said, like, like, like,

like, like, okay, I'm just making a different, it's not like food, but we're basically solving the core problem, so, so much, so. So, one, the two,

auditors are also, the audience is also, But, in other, I also, I also not know, I'm not know, is also good, because what push innovation is also competition, right? So the fact that we are doing the same thing, it's actually pushed us to think more creatively, but what we can do more,

so not settle with the thing now. So, maybe we will see more consolidation, but it doesn't mean, come there's only one single player, what keeps you awake? What keeps me awake? What keeps me awake? competition.

Since you brought it up. Okay. Am, is it up? Is it a bit of the day, before, what's-app, want to do you, make making

pediccan? I, not, not too pushin with competition, because, I said that I believe that

education is not commodity, so, even though, if, Google, or WhatsApp, or Facebook, or Facebook, you can,

Maybe it's, and technically Google has YouTube, who have many videos, and other things, but not make people, it's not making YouTube is YouTube, and Rwang Guru is Buang Guru, I go for YouTube for something, and I go for Wong Guru for other things, so, from the audience,

from the appetite to purchase, what's the tackled, it also can be different. And it takes time for them, It's not something that's just creating a platform and suddenly it's there. Because it takes an iterative process to know what is good content, what data you are collecting, so and so forth. I know, that I'm not, I saw that I saw data in 2018

that's on Netflix, that's the number of hours, 50 million-jard-jams, in one-time. And you know what's up there with Netflix? gaming. Gaming is 51 million hours. Watch time. Imagine, if all the world

to see screen for 51 million for to learn, that's how much smarter, or more educated, the planet will be. So, for me, it's fulfilling, because for me it's fulfilling,

because there's nothing like over-learning. It's not like I'm in e-commerce, Then I'm going to say, I consume more. And, or, if I'm going to landing, like, oh, you need to taking loan, so you can, you can, be consumptive, but if we push people to learn, there's nothing harmful about that,

so, I mean, hypothetically, if you had a choice to be taken out, right? Would it be by Netflix, or by gaming company, or by Google, or by Facebook? taken out, that's... Yeah. Because if I'm,

now, I'm not on Netflix, I'm that there's unsur-sejarrahan, documentar, and, and, it's... I don't think it's not an impossibility. I think it's an impossibility.

I think the thing about education is, and maybe in context it there, there's education just for sake of knowledge, that, okay, actually, this is, can learn new, push for curiosity, and and then, then, there's what we're doing, where it has to be structured,

because you need, the learning not just to lompat, because you need to understand the prerequisites what, to be master something, you know. So I think that structure and that experience, where it's not just about videos, but the quizzes, the study notes, the, what, the, the social element of it,

that's what's made it to be full experience for learning. That's what I think a lot of video on demand platform, or company that's a platform focused, that's not just about the platform, but what content you're producing that are tailoring specifically to your audience, I want to say, philosophically, about education.

Are you a believer of formulating the mind or lighting up fire in the mind? Because the pedagoguagin is a better, right? Right, so if I believe, I believe, I believe, to formulate so that there's fundamental, but

for formulating continuously without, there element of surprise, that lighted and the same it, it's like robot just. But just lighting just, yes, it's more responsive, but it's like not a core, not have substance.

So, yeah, it's not easy. I know I don't answer your question. No, no, you did. Yeah, but it must be. It's through sequential. It's just to be here. Right, it's sequential. It's either or.

Okay. Okay. You mentioned the word robots. Yeah, can. I'm going to go, I'm going to push like this. I can't subscribe. To what extent we need to hack our own,

so we can be able to be bigger and bigger. Now, if we're, this is a few times I've this on a topic with with the number of the power of genomes, sequencing, and artificial intelligence.

That's, I, I'm just with the theory singularity, that, as it's biological intelligence will intersect with artificial intelligence. And it's exciting, but also, menerick. If, if I'm not asoo, even, I believe,

to the different the intersection of intelligence that is in the world, and intelligence that in the universe. because it's not impossible, that's only there's something that's in the world. Now, that's how that's how in Indonesia, in 2004-5,

more cool, it's really fanatic about dung-dut, we've won 5-10 Oscars, 5 to 10 Grammys, 5 to 10 Nobel, and so all of it. Can't hack it, can't? Or if we can't, if we're content just, or we need to hack, or we need to continuously hack ourselves, see?

Then it goes back to, I think, in the last day, yeah, lifelong learning, so that's what I mean by continuously hacking, because when we are settling down with, like, okay, this is what I know, and then we are good with this, and at the same time, the problem is,

we're living in the world that continuously evolving. And we're not just in, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, that's just, just mutter-mutter here, but, but, there are variables other that we can't control the other like how, how different kind of,

like, what, evolving taste, so, at the end, if you're not continuously hacking, what's going to be relevant anymore, so I think, the question is, how do we make what we're doing it, continuously relevant to the ecosystem.

Wow. Okay, you're brave, which is good. Okay. Okay. Now, when do I appeal, Rwang Guru? Or, there's a man, from investors. Have IPO, before upon, or what, Well, I think, I think, because, because, because, if people get IPO, the end up, what's the reason why?

Is it for exit? Is it for, because we need more capital to actually, actually, we can achieve our goals and, so, because there's also a lot of intricacy and complexity by being a public company, and not necessarily that you have to be a public company you can still be a good private company

and deliver the output in an imaginable way, so, so if, for me, so if I'm like, like, okay, I'm like, like, I think, I think, it's more to be about milestone what, in the person that we'll get to,

so, then, then, we can say, if we're ready, if we're ready, yeah, but, still very, When will be unicorn?

Hmm. Um, um, I don't know, it can be, the thing is this, I mean, it's more than the answer

if it's over Yeah, yeah, maybe, that's true. Um, because, I,

it's, if it's investor asking, I probably have a question, which is your investor, you know, I might have an answer, but for me, but for me personally, and this is not typical entrepreneur,

I've never been driven by, by, by, I've been driven by, boss, I've had to be unicorn, and, I mean, the, and, I mean, the, you're basically, you know, racing, or basically there's an external party that is valuing you at that, you,

at that, you, The question is, is, is that, if we're going to raise for the sake of fundraising, to get to that status, because at the same time, it means dilution, it means you have less control, it means you're bringing more people to your family, and by the other, because we're going to be able to race

in December, the year, so far, so far, still, much, so far, it's still, so, there's, like, urgency, like, like, like, or the year of the time it's a unicorn or, that's, yeah, if I see,

no, there's no reason you can't be unicorn in a while I'm close. I mean, first mover advantage is, you have enough of a runway. Now, the enacquered that, you can be or you can be repiky or you can be rational, not too get-guesa,

and the more we're not-get-guesa, it's, we can focus. So, it's when you donate to race, right? Exactly. Exactly. It's been fascinating. I want to ask you some rapid fire. Okay.

Okay. And it's prepared. No, no, it's just. Okay, okay. Ten billion dollar valuation in five years for Ruehung Guru. Oh, this the job is what, yes or no?

Achievable or not? Achievable. How? Rapid Fire, there's an answer. It's not that easy, man. You got it. Without this closing too much. I think if we are continuously delivering the value,

and at that point, where, where, now, even, already, has made, and it's been on the network effect, so, I believe, on the network effect, so, it's easier to, it's much harder to get from 100,000 to 1 million, to 1 million, rather than from 1 million to 5 million or 10 million.

Because there, that's been there, that I think given that, it's possible. And at the same time, we're also doing a lot of other things as well outside of this border, we're now in Thailand, there's also promising, so I think in aggregate, out of everything that we do, possible.

I don't want to be overconfident, but it's possible and, yeah, it's possible, and, yeah, if you want to. If you want to. If you want to, if you want to, if you're going to watch time. Oh. And it's interesting. Because, in we are not driven by metrics and one that we're not

watch time, and not completion. Aga better with the many education companies. Because at we, we think, if people, if, in terms of put, not really, like, be like, be able to learn, and they can get something, that's even better. so that they can do and explore other things.

So what we're trying to do, approach to our is how, in time in a short, we can give in a sense, we can give them can't be able to get by the time, because if the matrix is just watch time, what I'm going to do is make the video a lot longer and it might not be efficient,

or, because, like, that's like, because, again, we're supplementary, people who, people who's not to get to get in the part of the we're not like like, like, people must have to make a course that they have to get from all to the after after after. So, that's a different.

So, maybe, if you're talking watch time, it's not something that I religiously focus on, that's not intuitive, because I think, it's more, it's more, not necessarily. Not necessarily.

Okay, that's good to know. E.V. In Indonesia, When will be it massive? EV as an electric vehicle. Oh, electric vehicle. I'm not one of those series A investors. Okay, okay, look at what is EV?

You don't know this? And you read enough books. Okay, electric vehicle. Interesting. Depending on policy, I mean, that's my next question. It's not going to be it under the policy,

or if it would then give an incentive for electric vehicle and... Yeah. But, to be mainstream, it will take a longer time than other places, because, awareness,

then, like, like, so it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, where it's out from the comfort zone this is the same time, how do you build also infrastructure

to permutement people can charge in where, so it will take time to come from now, it will be made to make it possible. I think it's going to happen. It is going to happen. It is going to happen. I just think that's just to, yeah, I'm going to predicts,

five, ten years, people will be more than if you're going to use fossil fuel. Okay. It's cool to drive EVV. But, but the definition mass is, like majority or the genie? We're just in the production,

buy one-jut-mobile a year. So assuming that at least half the people are... Yeah. Okay, that's doable. And, like, the, in the world, there's 2.5 million. Productions, 100,000, if we want to gante,

all of the mobile that's that, it's, that's just 25 years, which is a mockery. But I'm just a statistic in the where the people is just 4-5% the rest, it's in garassi, in the place in a parking. Yeah, right? Yeah, that's true.

We're not taking a mobile to 24 hours, but 4% per day. So if I'm thinking the production of mobile is more streamlined, and if autonomy, that's already, that makes sense. Yeah. Singularity.

Yes or no. Yes. Okay. Next question. If you had been offered to be in the government, not now, one day before IPO, or one day before one major corporate action for Ruang Guru, what would you do?

Not going to take it, sir. Not going to take the policy making job. Yeah, if it's one day before major corporate action, yeah? Yeah. Because that's where you're needed the most, and also maybe also the time where you can have a break for a while. Okay, the last. Pendidikers, it's must be it,

in Indonesia. A bit of a long, this job. But from a policy-making standpoint, and out of respect for our friends and our friends, yeah? Yeah. Okay. So,

the people of Indonesia, how that, how, I think, that there should be a balance between pragmatism and then, then,

liberty, or, or, yeah, to bea-bebasan, in general. So that then, if, if I'm assuming that, yes, that, oh, that's a liberating, yes, I agree. That's, that people can have options, have choices, and then,

can explore so many things and all and all, I agree. But, but the question also is, have we equipped people with the ability to make choices or not? Have we made enough choices or not? So, so, in my opinion, so, in the end of the effort that must be gradual. So, then, when we're saying that,

we are eliminating exam, we are eliminating exam, is it good or is it bad, I understand all the arguments of the proponents, say that, oh, exam is it gives pressure, exam that makes people so cramming, exam that makes people just naffal, not gregn't,

and everything, but at the same time is like, at the moment, it's the single, which is very sad, but it's the single motivation that majority of the kids have, why they're being that, because there's also, so when you're taking that away, which is okay, not not saying that's not as a milestone is important.

Yeah, what is the alternative? And how quick you can come up with the alternative. Otherwise, what's the other than what can't can not, there's not, there's not motivation, because they're making, that's the point, I'm going to go to the where, if you're getting to school, I can't go to school that I want,

it doesn't matter, for what I'm doing, I'll all of all of all of it, so, it's important, because at the end of the day in life, we're also, we can, sequence of tests that

then, or not be, that's something that I often think. So, for me, there should be a balance between, you know, I want to be pragmatic, that, then, yes, that, people can acquire these skills, and with those skills and with those knowledge, they're getting this, this, this, this,

but on the other side of the equation, I also want to say that, yeah, there are choices, Yeah, it's an answer to the question. Yeah, so that's what I feel about how I think about how how I feel, but how much, yeah, education. Okay. Thank you, Iman.

No, my pleasure, Pat. Fascinating. That's a fascinating conversation. Okay. Tumann, that Iman, Co-founder from Ruang Guru. Thanks. This is Endgame.