Endgame with Gita Wirjawan - Indra Rudiansyah: Diaspora as Future Bridges of Innovation

Episode Date: July 28, 2021

Indra Rudiansyah, an Indonesian student joining the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine research team led by Sarah Catherine Gilbert, spoke about his passion for molecular biology, accelerating the immunization program, and strengthening diasporas' role in leapfrogging Indonesia into the future.

Many people who say, when you comeang the technology in Indonesia, like that. We need to bring in the world with the institutions in the United. Right, Indonesia is known, Indonesia is quite the power of the people of the world.

Why we not manfaited the title to be in the world to be a workuling diaspora in the world when the institution that is working we're doing for the other for the other than Indonesia.

This is Engame. Andercih, I'm from Indonesia who are at the University of Oxford. Hello, Indra, what's about? Hello, good. Hello, good, sir. Thank you, thank you, sir. Thank you, sir, for the time.

And I feel such an honor to be here. Thank you, thank you, sir. Sama, same. I'm going to go over a long, yeah, with Indra. Because, after, this, of the information about you. And this is very related to the the development of the last,

with what name is Oxford, AstraZeneca. But before we go about about study you're in there, a little about about perjailant of your life, where, school, then,

to get to ITB, then to come to Oxford, and then we'll talk about a little about about about the next of our Thank you.

Yeah, so, thank you, sir. Yeah, so I'm going to tell you, about my last last year. So I'm from in Bandung, in 1991, 1 September. I actually, I'm basically, the family that's a very

so one PNES guru, my mother, she's only a personer to print-to-praner, he has a to-o-to-per-relander, So that's about background academic, maybe two people are my parents I'm just too much, I mean,

just not something whoahs just, just as a student student guru, then, I'm going to be a lusanne, so at that time, there's privilege of special for children that are being raised in my life. But, maybe, Maybe, maybe

I'm back to be with with career or education I'm going to be a problem, there's a problem it takes a village to rise a child. So, I'm trying to say that I'm being because

not only from the community, but also to have people who've ever been interacting with me. Maybe why I'm to be able to the more than the more than you as one, S1, S2, S3, because my dad's a guru,

when I was 4, 5,000, I always I go to school to look at myasar how I'm going to be made. I, do not dood in class, I could gogambar when I wasangangay when I'm going to know, what is the time?

When I was the first time I'm going to Maybe I'm going to be like that's just just to tarot-kered-hapen-as-1 if not-sha-sha-all. So if not-sala, we're not-sla-sla-luss-s-2, so I also lost S-1. Thank you. But I have a k-kka. I have a kaka, one kaka-prempore.

He's two-tah two-tweigh-darder than I. It's more than more advanced two years than I. Kertatraika my time to the UNAs, when I'm from my second, when I was in the SMA. When I, I was often I'm going to be in KAPA, then I'm often just to see a book of packeting her, kate, or textbooks, yeah, or textbooksing, about the book of the packet of the

and I'm looking at that, the other than chemistry, like structure atom, molecule, or, or gambar of biologue, this system peredaradar of the manusia, this system sycambe in the human, wow, ternatraff in the science,

from there, I, if there, if there's when I'm going to comeer of my kakkak to read, this is this, this is this thing, like, this is the system's like, So, from the S.D. S.D. S.M.A. I'm going to getchaq. I, actually, I'm going to go to school local, yeah, sir.

So, my, from the school in the U.P.P.P.A., kacca, my. So, Kaka. Sucalah, I'm going to go to school in Bandong. So, so, I'm going to go to a half-jamb. And I said to my parents, I also want to be M. in the samea in bandung, because maybe, as far as in quality and as far as access to, and in fact, more than I'm more,

more than I'm going to be in a school local, at home. I'm going to puttasked for school in Bandung, still, still in the same, because it's still in

science. In the SMI, I'm going to be by the vaccine. Maybe when I'm actually by the people's actually, I'd just by the vaccine by the people who are but I'm not even what's the way,

I was to teteasy vaccine polio when it was really, and it was really, but kind of I'm just like, why, I'm like this, but at the time SMA, there's one guru biology that, I was still class one SMA, I'm not why, from the students in class in the class of course,

I'd beajaced to compete with the perlombaqan vaccine in Biopharma. When it was in the team that class 2 and class 3. But still in MSMA, yeah? Yes, ma'amah, sir. So, when that, when that, by the guru biologues, my name's Buyani, let's lomba vaccine,

what that was training, what that's vaccine, how how it's being made. It's like, pengotawan, the basis about vaccine what men, what the same time, what the same thing,

and serum, like that. Afterna, I also did biming by seniors, senior, senior, I, that's about this, this is from here,

the way of the vaccine, this is the source from here. At that it was going to beaforma. I also not know if biopharma is the product of vaccine because of my SMP. Yeah, from there we're lomba, even if we're called, but it's very interesting, so, we're in ajap tour

to the living fabric here, this is a fabric for production of vaccine, this is the place of the same thing, And when I was called called room. Coldroom, so much like a cool-kass. But it's one room. And that's the sunuinen in 2 to 8 degrees. Like, wow, it's really interesting.

Yeah. It's been given since the S. It's been given, right, but, sir. At least, when, when I was at the end of the SMA, when I'm at Kulia, I was,

When I was that was two jurorses between the first of the first of the I heard about if the perminiakhan, the genguesescendarine is a lot of the way. Because, maybe oil and gas company, everyone needs energy, so it will be good for the future. But, then, in the side of the side of the side, I want to make microbiology.

I was going to know, senior my name was going to go to and when I'm going to get into the microbiology we're just about this is something that's a new thing for usmah, we're more than we're in a macro, yeah, manusia, tumbuhan, while microbiology is more to jastatic that I'm actually never even

to see physic it's like what. Okay, I'm okay, I'm the two microbiology SITH, so two, it's B. I'm going to keep SPMB when I'mb because urgian sarin'am to private at USM, when it was, It's very much of the wayiagy. I mean, I was in SPMB.

Then, sphembe, that's synaptan. When I was in time I was in test, then it was not in the terminiacan, but it was in the same biobiology that. So, the juicuosan, there are two biologi, microbiology. Ompamany, if that's if it was, did reminiacan?

What would have happened? That's also a question that's interesting, because when I was lulled S-1, it was with crisis the price of in-miniac, yeah, pa. When that was $1, 2008. Yeah, right, $2,000.

From $147 per barrel to $30-an. Yeah, that's really, but when it was even when it was heard that the price-miniac-notes, but you're just, you're just about there's transports like, wow. And at that time that there's kind of people who are also that

so I don't even think, how much the next thing my life I'm going to be able to other than to the bidang like that, but maybe maybe this has been a tachir, yeah, for being a career in microbeautil in the world, microbiology, like this.

Yeah. So when we're in the first we're we're about the ITB we're more to practical, so that's better than, like, like, at Oxford, I'm looking at undergrat in this they're very quite, theory and critical thinking, but they are lacking of practical skill.

Yeah, right. I'm looking at many undergrad in Oxford when they're S2 or S3 even if I'm not even if how to be able to reactsicant what, chemia is what? Meanwhile, when I compared with the when I was S-1 at I-B,

at least-neying, I know how much how to make piquet or melanching. So, we're actually, as a practical, more advanced, like that, when S-1. But, maybe, is the skill critical thinking that has more than than what's in part.

So, yeah, so when S-1D-B, when I'm actually in curbsalusant, I'm going to be a practicum, I'm really very very much more than what name is molecular biology. Because, wow, this mayn't-mine DNA. I can be re-recha-D-N-A, like that. I was like that.

There was Mention, there's... There's also, we're not going to watch. Yeah, that's right, sir, ma'ameter. And then, if you're seeing, it's really, like, yeah, sir, the world, or something like, wow, I'm really, I'm interested in the human molecular biology.

Uh, In fact, that, there was senior I, a year, a year, named Rydio Jayanti, he, he, in Imperial College, she's she's making me an M,

scintetic biology. Now, so, this is there competition, this is about synthetic biology which, which I was not able to what the difference synthetic biology with cloning bisoning, and, I think,

I'd give them to learn, to learn, and, wow, menaric-and, wow, and, wow, I'm very much. So I have some kind of extracular an additional to beaulmonary biology just like that.

Because if in class, they have had a puriculum that's paris so, oh, practicum is this, this, this, but we don't have any change to explore deeply, like what kind of application that we can do with this. So, yeah, from that I have

maybe, Maybe it's been able to know advanced skill to cloning or molecular biology because senior my own majoring I'm going to ask you. After the last year, I'm going to be mad. But you're going to be a program special, right, P, P. Yeah, right, Chilers, and F.S.2,

did gabong, right? Yeah, bet. So, so, there, there was program fast-track. Weisdh, if in Indonesia, in two years, we used to beaughan fast-ray, we've got a BASISI from DICTI, the name's BAU fast-reg. So, at the time the year-kete,

we can't make up the class-cullihe S-2, so that year-S-2 first, that's been rank up with the year-E-1. Because, maybe, in the year four, we've got to be, a few times, a lot of class, so many, maybe, the task of the end-eastern research. Now, when I lullus S-1,

I've got made some of the S-KS-2, I think I'm going to make up the S-KS-S-S-tenthen again in one last, in the year, in the year-the-lain-K-Wast-Rae. So, okay, I made-accet-comped-Rae, because IPK my first one, I'm going to lawless bianasysa, and then for S2 in the bidang biotechnology, which is with my natuiline,

myrilecular biology, when I was going to beaulmonary. I'm sorry, what I'm going to do, after S2 this, because when S1, S2, I'm still given money-unan by the people of my but my people's quite too much more than if I'm not having been there's been a lot of

time I'm, maybe, when I was quite quite too, and I'm having my dad and my dad's my also have to be able to implement. You're not as the best of the time you're not as well as well because you're going to hit-bagnet many seniors

my, like, from S-1, S2, S-3, like that, man. Meanwhile, I, I, I was I was I was I was. I was actually, I had to find out of the first to find out of FMGC, like, yeah, yeah, some of the FMCG, sorry, FMCG, and then,

to be the person equitas, just the important I'd have to do, and when there were There are many of the students of LULUSANB who's being bankier, so, yeah, yeah, right, right,

But that many people who are al-a-zab. Then then, then, when it was about there was an offer in internal program study.

This is one of one of course of clapac-sawit that needs of the olivist to be research to make up productivity

of the water. When I was I was after before they're not just like six-bunus and then I said, but I just said, but I'm just about, but I'm going to be able to do.

But maybe, my father's my, because you're going to because of the Serpong that when you're going to work in the Bandung just, you can't do not with vaccine, in Bandung,

there's biopharmah. Coba, try apply just, after I'm going to when I lullang I'm going to to biopharmat, when's alphaned,

I called for you know-fonded. I think I'm lulled, de, because there was a problem with sample my, sir, I'm going to, I'm going to, no, ma'am, pa. At some point, I'm also, I'm also get taken in Biopharma, to work at R&D,

and medadak all the task of my time S2, that's been perlancar, so, oh, sample, it turned out of, it's been more quick, and then I had I experiment. Lancered-lancered just,

there's no matter of it, it's like, it's like, it's like to work in biopharma, because when I was learning to do, sir, you, so, sir, sir, sir. So, I'm going to be able to ask you, to the company Kelapac-Sawit that, that I've got to work other, and maybe this is more than my opinion of my life.

But I'll try to find out of my opinion of my, like that's because it's based on personal choice. And I still haven't yet yet enough. So, at the time I'm going to get a new so on my bio-farmah, I was interview by my bo-shaelection. The question is, you know, kind of, five years to do what do you dofarmah? Then I look at, I think, I'm going to be able to,

I'm going to S-3. because I'm not that vaccine is a person who's been a person who's beeno-due-diery, so, right, for preventive, you know, when people who are not there that's not that's been under-are-can-pocket, that's not a part of smallpox. Smallpox is now, we're not in the world,

so we don't need vaccine smallpox. That's the same casus with polio, we're already eradication, and biopharmat is one of the world that's one hundred hundred hundred thousand three negas for fashin polio. If you're miscarryo barriced eradication, it's biopharmah not really selling folio again. Income you will be able to bellowed.

So I'm thinking, maybe we have to find products, product, vaccine, which, until now, I don't. I'm still up. I'm sorry, I'm not. I was in biofarmah, and I'm four years after, I'm going to continue to stay as well-farmac.

Because when I worked in biopharma, I saw that urgency we're going to make up to make upholstic product that's very, it's very, very, very. Yeah, because, other, for the way of the company, it's also to help, because we're still endemic, you know, for three big diseases like HIV malaria and TB. Meanwhile, now, now, there's not.

So, yeah, maybe if I'm going to contribute to the result, to find the vaccine the same, why not? Like that? And then you've got a disoesuit from LPD, right? Forksford. Yeah, sir, that, that, That's right. Yeah, I don't know if you're going to do with the

with a lot of school. But too, sir. I'm actually, because our country we have a mechanism for scholarship like LPDP, that's a program that's great. Right, right. From as to the

sum of the stipend and that in coverage, that we're relatively more than solar ship other. I'm very much more than solar ship other. of the same relationship that they're also they're also in-lawful-negues when you're in-lawful-negris. Like that, sir.

Very far, there are bioponement-lain like book per-town, or settlement allowance, or, what like, if it's up after we, we get back we get some of bonus,

like that. Yeah, yeah. So, man. Robes, like, yeah. That's right, sir, sir. It's more than the program bea-sysuah that we've seen in 80s, 90s. Yeah, that's how it can scale up just,

so that more than people in Indonesia. Yes. ...bees of schools, ...in out of the world-neutral-neutral. Okay. There's one thing that you hobby, that is music. You're in marching band.

Yeah, right, right, It's really good little. But it's not guitar. Okay, playing guitar just. I see in the camera you have guitar or that's on the gantuk. I actually, I can't play music, when I was going to join marching band. This guitar, not guitar,

my guitar, hostman, my. So, in T. In T.E.B. It's many of many of the unitesis-a-hachers-in-allan, you want active in unit, want active to be-bent, or in-hump-and-himp,

that was personal choice. But, when I was looking I'm not as well as I'm not as I'm going to I'm trying to try to make up to make up to see how I'm going to do with music. When I was very butted with note ballok, there's not background music in my life I before that I'd come to,

back to stand. There's a music that's top, not know, note balok, too, if you're talking. Right, ma'am. Right, ma'am. When that's two units, the iso, ISO, it's like an orchestra, and MBWG, marching band.

When I was after unit orchestra, it's the waiting for many because they're going to play orchestra, and they're at the same has still had skill music, yeah, pa. Wow, I think this will be a lot for me and also will be able to resists in the first. Yeah, well, dafter, so, daftar, just, daftar, then.

Then, when I came to Stan Marching Min, When I was like to ask the strenuern, then he's like, like, encourage, like, like, it's like, ''It's not about, I can't play music, but we're not going to be from the first from the unit marching band,

and, and, t'''athing-bent, it's really like military, because, maybe marching band is, has high discipline, and then, has to compact one team, because we can't be more than molecular biology. I agree, ma'am.

Even, back. We've got to know, Pat, man, that you're coming from, your course of marching band, unit you're microbiology, because we're not being when there's event,

it's from day, since, when when you can, from 7 to 10, if the day, if it's from 8-pague to, time 8-pague,

So I'm playing instrument what? I'm playing melephone, maelophon. Melephone is like brass. From there, I'm playing melephone. Diojured how to nipoble, turelap, taut, mellophon, or melephone that's really difficult, yeah, right, not gampan. Gets, lute.

Trompet, not gampet. Not gamp. What other, it was not toobath. Yeah. Because, I know that trompet is that for a new, not blow, like, right-forward. Yeah, right. For this thing we have to, like,

there's some kind of what we're trying, make adjust, the blood our, bibir our bit of being so that there's a kind of pressure udra, that can, finally, make-sil canada help-and-bent-tomble-tombole-y-tip-y-tombole-y-tombole-y-tall. I, like, when I was able to nip-same-same-same.

And then I was in one-to-one session with senior I'm going to do you know, like, here. Yeah, I mean, I'm going to be able to play one or two octave, ma'am, like that? Okay. Then, still maylephone now? Now, it's often, sir, because the alattinger, I'm not there.

Then, maybe I'm more perturring with molecular biology, like, but maybe if I'm going to be able to play I'm like I'm going to talk about. But talk to do you. For the favorite of you, you're just molecular biology only. Not like physical, like, not like chemia or what,

mathematics, maybe. If mathematical, I like statistics, actually. So in the mathematics, I'm very I was like that's one, we had a mataculah, probability and statistics. When it was, the doserner is a lot of stagicat.

But somehow, I was always challenged with people who are people who are afraid, like, because of this is complex. Like molecular biology, it's quite complex, yeah, ma'am. But I'm challenged to be able to be able to be able toadest, when the doserick, the docet is quite a lot of course. So, everyone also, people, too, the person is it too, not at the class, just as well as well, I'm going to class,

I'm going to say, oh, t'ubleuze, oh, t'ystogram, it, he's justoicom, and the data that's not yet, data, discrete, it's good by, the tapilance of this, like, like, so, so, yeah, when it was challenged to be excel in class And until now, it's not yet the amount of applied in

many things. One of the ones of course of the vaccine, uci-clinis, like that, so, sir. So, and, and, and,

related to be able to biology, actually, molecular biology, is, kind, is, like,

with, bio-inia, with, and em-simology. So, if you, if you're learning one

core, you, you can be understand, cellular biology, biology, bio-chemistry, and

enzymology. So, yeah, the world's there, but if I'm not, but you know, what's the name is, you know, oh, maybe I'm going to be able to be able to be able, right? Yeah, right. Even, statistics, too,

also been made for data science, that's very applicable so, for technology, and all the other than all the way. Okay, we'll fast forward, to Oxford.

If I read, that's Sarah Gilbert and Catherine Green, that he's been a book, The Vexers, right? And if I'm learning, he's actually, it's been any of whatever, like, for years. But what's very interesting, if I'm in front that is technology that he's developed, which he jolucy, as a platform technology,

which, which, which, which is importantality is, it's much more than, and that's what about capacity in Oxford to be able to be to be the virus the last this. And try, let's go get, we'll golly, what what you're doing what Sarah and Catherine

do, and what's what you're doing, and then, and what's also, because of the DNA which is a double-stranded molecule is that's about RNA. And RNA is that's that byzor-biotech and moderna. Why not, not-munganagan, just to use the use, and then-a?

Yes. So, if we're talking about platform technology vaccine, yeah, we're talking, maybe, that's established before, conventional. If we have two ways. We have a pathogen. Patogen is a microba or virus that can give up to the disease from the body. So there's virus, bacteria, parasit, that we're called pathogen.

Now, the pathogen, we can take, we can lemhack with the way in the condition that not optimum. they're not yet yet we're left, or we're able, and we're inactiv-can, and it's given to be able to be able to be able, because they're pathogen, and they're being a bit of asing for our,

our body our human, that's the goal of the vaccine, you know, sir, and meddick system immune we're more early. Now, but with becoming technology biomelecular, and also and also, and also,

and also, because of the pathogen, like, light-adwinated atonated atonitpip, is difficult to beapplication to be a few cases, because, first, like, H.I.V. It, it's too be badahyed for we can culture HIP in general or other than a lot of the bacteria,

like microbiome tubulosis, which is also to move on bacteri the lab, it's just so difficult, but with the helpuant technology molecular, we're playing, oh, what's, what, is, from the partogen that that's actually can induce our human, for massacan response immune?

For, for hepatitis B, there's protein in the permuccaulting virus, that's if we can produce in lab, without having produced virus it can be a badu-utama vaccine. So it's with the banquant cloning, it's in the way to ragi, ragi, it's more for in culture, yeah, and ragi also be a part of a fabric

to make production protein it. And in culture, ragu, protein is done, it's been made the morenican, it's been a product of vaccine. Okay. But just for the other than the other than the disease, like SARS-CoV-2-SARs, or Zika, or influenza, you know what, yeah, Pat, right, influenza. That, we don't know the next step-neux-neap-near-it-ne-to-rerereact.

To be reproducing protein, too, just for a time-luck-wake-lame, to identify the pathogen. Why, we don't have a platform that's like playing Lego, so, plug-and-disply. When there's pathogen or virus-baru which is unful, we can infill information genetic-ness, into into a certain kind of land, and material genetic, is it,

is it, it, is, it, sir, the set-bidu-near-bred-nial-protein, yeah, we're, put-in-to-in-law, yeah, ma-suffeat-a-cruhouty protein that. So, after all the birth and friends'embourg, medallomavirus, using adenovirus or phox virus. So, so, Pat, Patro? And that adenovirus, I heard,

they were from chimpanzee, yeah? Yeah, bettool. Awareravirus platform that's from the human being, but then, you know, virus, too, you know, part of... Yeah, yeah, right,

99%. Yeah, but, yeah, the problem is, when we're using that, just the other, the other,

with the, same, about, Right, right. Sometimes we're like a poin-piesing, so pinter, but we're 60% same. Right, ma. So, sir.

So on, please. If we're using adenovirus that's from a manusia, because we've ever been before, because we've got we've got come and come and cold, it's because of adenovirus, yeah, ma'an cold is,

in the world of the that's been in the virus, that's because it can be a bit of virus too. Now, artiness we've got to be metabolize the kind of vaccine that might be able to affectivotan, toactivity of the vaccine that's about. So, after Gerey Blot and team

be thinking, okay, we have to see adenovirus that not even no-skelsumannes. Finally, they've been making screening. Ditemukenovirus from chimpanzee, which, turned out of seraparvancy, manusia, is never tapar, or jarang, very far,

with virus that. And then we've used a vector that in various model vaccine. So, okay, we try, fellow factor this for influenza, for Zika, for what? So that's like, like, like the DNA is part, then we can't be part,

that we can't passang-ganty with target from pathogenes. So if, okay, we're going to do youclinease vaccine MERS, or Ebola, okay, we take DNA Ebola, then we'll use it to be human, oh, t'nata, be, and so,

oh, oh, oh, it's not yet, okay, we're trying to try the other. So it's really technology viral factor that, for example, for the technology, parolvaporin. So, why, when, when the pandemic this is actually, vaccines, vaccine, the first time, made license for emergency use, is, either, viral factor, or RNA,

because the two platforms, it, um, has a flexibility that's high and it can fast-respon to respond to the other than that. But if we're seeing, if you're going to be a certain, more than less than DNA,

than DNA, right? If DNA, it's, can, it's going to be musketeen to nucleus then we're re-caisacan to be what, what, see, messaging, messenger RNA, to produce the protein, so immunities can be able to be able to come back.

And when RNA, can, it's just to platamines just, I don't need to nucleus. I'm just a bit more stage, just as if it's just as what it's done by RNA. Yeah. Why, maybe, when a while someone Gilbert decided didn't use platform MRNA,

because at the time of the platform MRNA, that's still so hard so much as far so concept it's possible but when in fact practical in the lapangangans

it's difficult because when we don't know or the limonial that MRNA this must be modification there some some kind of

some kind of molecule that can stabilize the MRNA that because MRNA it he's quickly degradation, so he has to content in the sun who is very high-rendah, if we're handling in lab,

if we're not handling, if the shuhrushed a bit, that, yeah, then, R&A's degraded, so, it's not-as'd be used, but, we don't know there technology, some of modification,

modification in R&A that he can make more stable. But DNA, can't be stable, because double-stranded, right, If that's more stable. If you're not as well as far as, if you're not as far as far.

He's a setak-bri-you-pa-you-part. So, he's not going to move to the cell, not pern't-must to inti, but it said Bhopa, but it was the result of protein. But when that, the problem is delivery system, so, so. So R&A is not we can't put into the body, only RNAs just, because of the body

will be degradation, too, so there's a formulae, where the MRNAI is like a buncous, and he can't go ahead to cyto-plasma, like that. Now, when technology, technology not there, and for viral factor this,

it was more straightforward, So that, maybe that after Gilbert and Kalan decided, okay, we're we've got to paral-factor, we'll even take forward, then we can't have resources also, and then, yeah, maybe decide, this, too, Pat.

This I'm going to gali some of the about the tompunner and friends. of the same, it's not mattened this is very much more than and that's also the core of the this is efficiency and

the curahean if I think it's going to it's, maybe, the jatto-jadowing for vaccine Oxford AstraZeneca is 3-5 dollars is more than Pfizer or moderna or which which is a lot of intellectual property is more than beprotectsia and be redayaka

for the pettingal commercial, it can make uphackan $20. Now, it's kind very much morea, and even beingingat, yeah, there's been many many people in the world

this has been underdampak for 18, 19, and this the end up to the end up to look at least, it's not even, it's very for feasible for Oxford AstraZeneca it's reproductions or reproductions to 4-5 million doses. Yeah, right?

Because of all of like that and doses that's that's that for the first part of the first that's, that's just, full, even just a half just a half just What is what is about? What is about?

I don't know, I'm going to check just with you. How about it? Yeah, right, sir. So, technology viral factor, this is developed from 2013, if it generated that that, and, actually, technology is that, patent is,

the patent is, and the patenting, and there's technology scaling up manufacturing. So this, this is this is manufacturing, for the number of the same of the technology. It's also that's also that's one of the technology scaling up manufacturing,

it's also one of the W&I, there's a one in a name of Karinajo. He's who is the methodology of production. Vaxin AsraZeneca that, he also has patented, but... When I'maic-tapy. Tampycan, thank you. From Karina Jha, from here in Indonesia. Yeah, really, sir.

Karina Jo, this is that we can't have vaccine AstraZeneca in the world, like that. They have patented. But we can't sader that this is for humanuciaan, and we can't even that's not can't make up against vaccine if we don't have support, funding

from the company, or government, or philanthropist that they're giving downed for the development vaccine this. Okay, after the core management team's, like Salard Gilbert and other than other, decide to, and also from, and also from university,

we've got to, yeah, we have put in this, but we're not going to be royalty from the sale of vaccine this. There's a kind of component of biopactin, that's royalty, that not beaunted to the heart of vaccine that. So, really, benarer vaccine that's actually, if it's just COGSs' just, sir,

so it's cost-productions just. So we can produce many. Like that, sir, why the price can't be more. Yeah, it's per 7 or 1.6? than the other than the other apatollary for the country and agamonging, yeah, that's capacity of fiscal-in-a-capacitiveness or capacity of the money that's not as high

that in the negara-negeer-negeer-negras-maju. Yeah. And, that's true, Pat, absolutely. And we also sader that everyone is not safe until everyone is safe, So we can't... We're not able to be able to rein in COVID-in' if everyone in planet Bumémy this, if it's not by... If you can, if you can, if,

not by vaccine COVID this. And not all of the country, but, Pat, not have comempon fiscal to buy vaccine. Tindersmone the country can produce vaccine. they decide that, okay, we don't have royalty, and we'll join with program Gauvi and WHO to VACS facility, so that all the countries can have equality

to address vaccine that they can prolete like that. Yeah. If I learned that, it's efficacy in dosis the two for Oxford, AstraZeneca, it's very very good, did the efficacy that there in products products other.

But there's one statistic that I look, that's in context hospitalization prevention. That's a big, you. Yeah, right? And that, if I'm in myruth I, that's why it, it's not not be underestimate, effectivitas'y.

Apatheavititit, that's also not even underestimate. It's also can be factor-factor that can can make amann can and menhamanca

we're to come if this is in context process vaccination in Indonesia which I think this is much It's quite long,

what's the other after the variant delta, this is a kind of of a certain, there's variant variant barian, and, you know, the uniccannes also and the keyininaned

also, not can't be controlled, to be able to be able to replicate but mutation, but also, mutation. Yeah, right, so, Because of the virus Sarscofti is because it material genetic is RNA, you, Pa.

So if you're human, can, you know, manusia or mhaluk, the humanoid thinga or RNA or RNA. Meanwhile, virus is only DNA or RNA. So, you know, just one of one. Now, virus, virus, R&A, like Sarskoff, too, influenza. They, that, not put,

when they're replication, yeah, in the body, in the human human, they're not have the capability to make up to make sure of the material genetic that they're perbrient. So, that's why the extent mutasiness is big,

artiness, more people have infected, the more often the virus, it's more frequently, the virus, it's more mutton-baraue that's new.

If you're using, So they're in other, they're both ways, they can fit for virus-ness, can even make unfit. Now, variants of variance that turned out of the virus,

which, he justeru, gives us the virus to be able to infects our body. Artiness, yeah, that, if, if, if, if, if, if, we want,

to, make-en-mutory virus, yeah, we have had been to bea-re-re-re-dus So we have to beaughan so many people's just because virus that's not-punate the virus that's favorable

for the virus that to be mutation like that, Pat. Yeah. Amman, not to be hypotesa that, with power power technology that's developed by Sarah Gilbert this,

if there's variation or variant is more, more than mutation, it's more than more than for Oxford, AstraZeneca, make uptacate. Yeah.

Yeah, I'm... Yeah, I'm just gonna bechorcan a little, so, so, we're, we're just, there are Aheleculecalae

in team, named usumoris, it's, it's, we've got to, okay, we've got a vaccine for variant variant

baruan-bourou in case, vaccine that's existing that's effectivatessing that, it's up, sir. So, yes, in case is like that. So, the team's that's actually made back vaccine for variants of the new new

but, but, but, al-hmm, that variant that's true now, must be handled by vaccine that existing now, at least by Australia, Zanika, Pfizer, and I don't know

if data data for vaccine other, but if I'm, if I've got in a paper, the capacity of the metabolization that's from the antibody that's still there, even though, even there's a decade in the trend, the example of Australia Zeneca,

that's a strain beta, or South Africa, strain, but, but I'm still miliki. But I also want to highlight, when we've been given variant that, it's not a rar, and we try at the lab, the antibodies that's,

if it's not true, if it's not true if it's not even gagal or there's been under, it's not as a matter of fact that vaccine not be effective. Because that's, it's a penuptych, which, parameder's very badas, and we're only looking at antibody that's working.

Sedangan in the body, it's not just antibody that's working, there SELT, there also innate response or idyllaboa-in-boa-boa-boa-beckers-worked, There's also complement that can't help antibody to be able to be able to becarsion. So it's not engabarcate what what's in the body of our,

like that? So, can't be you guys in a while in period or mass trial that's done in several countries, in Brazil, in Canada, and in English, that efficacy after dosis the two, it's a biter,

is not different in each of different whether it's because factor geography, demography, or ethnic, or apopun,

I'm curious just. Yeah. I'm sure, fact, the factor demography it is be a part with efficacy

from vaccines. Because geography or race They have a different genetic background that's different which can be a different to be a different, so now that's a certain bit of vaccine,

the system vaccinology. So they're looking at how much vaccine it's into the body and correlations with genetic, like. That, Pat. It's a bitaghanes that's very advanced I'm also very much I'm sure that's I'm thinking that's a lot of

efficacy from a few different different people, but other than that's there, there's a different between regimen that's the penitement, it's, pa, but, but... of the vaccine, Pa.

So, there's two, there's a different different than two, there's been a better. Let's say, let in Oxford, it's all only-dose, so, but it's just one dosis. Because, can, again, for the vaccine for pandemic if one dose is effective,

it's more than to get hurt immunity, like that, but, but, so we have co-hurt that one-dosis, and cohort that two-dosis, the result of immunology that, the cohort-2-dosis, he's immune response more robust. And then,

in clinical trial that was one dosis, that's the number of volunteers more that's being called to be called to the other, because the result of dosis the two turned out of the genocititans. And they're being called back in the sutiqued dosis

two, which means that's a gap of the longer now, the reality finding that that's not long, if you're a gap that's long, let's say, let's 12-mingue or 3-bulan, immun response that's true more than justerle-bigh-bye

if just for 4-mingu, if, you know, pa. If you're more efficient, the efficacy is, maybe, can, be more than that. Now, theory that's how much, Now, maybe the theory that I'm because we've got to get the dosis first, our body, right, sir, respond to the body. Then we're not-papar,

and the tubu also has required time to process vaccine that, hinder-and-bodies-and-body or cell memory-lainly. Now, can virus, that, in the material of vaccine, in the body, also, did degradationist, you, but, long-lame, illang. When we're in dosis, like, suntic the 2, maybe that's more than memory cells, and soing that's the result of antibodies

that he justru can beckxed more quat, or memeliki affinitans that more than more. So, maybe theoriness is like that, but I also cross-check again, because many theories why that can't be able to be. So, that. So, maybe, the difference anti-geographic in one of the other than the other, because one of the other than genetic background,

regimeningementing is also be better. So, sir. Sure. Maybe that has been anticipation in other countries that are musim dinged, this, can, the climate will be able to be able to be a few months

to the future, right? So this, this, product of vitamin D also beckorong. Or, to beangue. That's, it's just, in the batas lohika, can make upanguropi immunities, Now, maybe I want to try to ask you, this is what we have

anticipated, what we have anticipation, in the other? The other, what we have anticipation in the calang of the world to COVID-19. Yeah. Yeah. But, Pat. Because we don't know virus this actually we can't

from the Mucca Bumi this or not. Is it, is it like, as if it's like, or not want, to live with virus that, for the future, yeah, for the that is

the antisipation is that, when we have this, the virus this is not from the Mucca Bucan, we have to be like that the influence, it's just to be a small or outbreak at a certain way, and we have to have

data surveillance that's very quite, Pat. Don't even if this virus, he's turned dormant, or maybe, it's not yet, it's, it's different variants that, Pat. So, more than I'm going to want, to the future we have to make sure surveillance our,

as far as, ma'amanteau mutation of virus this, and then you're regularly checking if the vaccine is still effective or not. In one side, also,

the people of the now, the different than the more with the probability there's pandemic pandemic that's because,

because, when I'm looking the pandemic, like, the start of, the SARS-Coron-2 this, because we're

contact with wildlife, it's now, the time- now, more, more-er-out- , sir,

wildlife, that's like animal wild, like, like, like, like, like, they're, they're also, for virus, for virus, that's not ever apart before if you never ever to popper before,

it means we don't have an antibody, and at some point, when the virus jumped from animal to human, we know, the isolitis, yeah, outbrick, like this is what's the case, so much so on the next time,

we have surveillance, we have to purport then to be, at the end up, at least, exit now, from COVID-Contin, and that's the, carveragination, the coverage has to be taken. Yeah.

So the moral of the story, important, for the people who are supposed to be vaccinate, or divacinacea. Socephabate, know, SinoFack, SinoFarm, AstraZeneca, Oxford, AstraZeneca, Oxford, or even Moderna, or Johnson and Johnson.

Yeah. Then we'll back again to point that we discussed in with the capability or affordability and reachability too. Okay, I'm going to go about a little, we'll we'll start to the next day. Yeah. This is very interesting. If we can't book

a Cracken Creation by Jennifer Doughton. This is a CRISPR, right? It's very fascinating, how it can helpang the can't comepunuant manusia to be able to be able to be from chronic diseases, including sickle cell,

the parietic blindness, termitescum, like, this is that's what's been discursus-can is how far, we're going to make

doing things like that, whether that's a bit of therapy, or can be as far as augmentation. You're, I'm not as well, how indra, panagant of your

about CRISPR? Because it's also a little bit of molecular biology and Jennifer, you know, she is a fantastic that, molecular biologist, chemist, and and allan- Yeah. Wow, is, ma'amara, ma'am.

Yeah, we can, we can't, if you're going to make of the pastime. Yeah, sir, ma. I'm sure, sir, if, if you're still put a lot of the way of the side, yeah, sir, part of the side of the pedant. It can give us benefit,

but also it can be a, some kind of, um, what, uh, uh, anciman for the future of the future of the new energy. Like that's a certain of new energy, like, Krasper.

I also think that Krasper has two sifah this one side, it's like cutting edge technology. If we read a book, if we want to jumping to the other we just to just to just, it's just to get to put it.

Now, yeah, that, that's technology, the technology modification genetic, it's very much, and take-along type. With CRISPR this, we can't even with Chrysper, we can't, and everyone can do it, like, that,

that's a major-grat, it's going to do, that's not. Yeah, right, yeah, yeah, because, because, that, we just,

we just, just, It's just. But just one of the other four words, C, A, G, G, P. Right, right. To be added just, more than the key,

want I-Q-N-N-U-N-T-U-Rue. Yeah, right, right. Sorry, sir, sir, please, go, please, go. So, so, so, so on point,

we, benefit that is foreseeable, okay, we can edit the like sclerosis, we can't be able to as a sclerosis that,

or, as a certain scientist that in China, they're making edit baby to be resistant to the HIV, because the people are the ones who are supposed to be positive,

when their child, the child's being resistant to the HIV. It's a foreseeable application. Cumae, we need a control because, because,

to edit genome, the power of the to look correlations with system in the system in the body is, but, okay,

let's say that's, in edit, he's resistant. But we don't know, when the process of the baby that, there's part that actually may be able to be able to be able to be able. Now, this is the time we're still samar. The fact-ahue that we're still samar.

Now, I'm going to be inevitable. At one of a certain time, we'll reach point, where Chrysler is massive, in the manusia. Cuman what I'm not quite is, the development of policy, it's not as much with the technology.

Yeah, right, but it, technology, it's much as far as exponential, yeah. Meanwhile, the policy is, linear.

Linear. So I'm notarer, that's why people have many people who are more than technology this just to the way to the way negative. If you're going to be itchogenic, if, during, the time of the time of the call-coun. You know.

Dibilang that rass that's better better. So, then, that's also, that's also we need to, but at some point, I believe that technology will give us more benefit instead of the negative. But, but this is, Indra, if we're going to, or another's someone,

it's kind of pediatric blindness, or because of the same or or cell disease. I think I'm still in a batas, lohica, etica, moral, morality. For that, it's been to be able to be able to beaumboch. Yeah, I agree. But if we think,

the way of our lives, it's, the, that's more blue. Ampacae it therapeutic or that augmenting? Yeah. I'm not the parcarses, but if I'm not just to discursus-can with a pacar, moral, moralities,

packer religion, pack social, packer buddha, packer economy, packer... ...machmachmach, yeah, and that it has to be bentook

a sort of consensus. But I think, Indonesia is still far, as a scientific, yeah, right? To get to get a titic like that. But I'm looking,

yeah, the other and the countries and the and the country maju, it's much more sophisticated, yeah, right, in the

in the how we can get-up, how we can be more shardas, more than if we're going to keep in pace that's now, how, how, so there's a thousand-hru-indra? Yeah, right?

Not, not many, or people who can do make up to make uproxed in I-1-S-2 in four-town, can be taken at University of Oxford, can be a part of the one that's something that's very game-changing. Now, that's how to be scale up? How would you read the next chapter?

That's a question that's that manang, ma'am. Okay, maybe I'm Learn from the experience here, if we can't, as Indonesian, yeah, Pat, Indonesia, we know capabilities like in the country, our institutions we can't catch up with the current pace. So, if we're going to be doing with it, we can't do,

make sure face that we can collaborate. So, trend now, it's in the institution, institutions that's much of the data sharing, it justrues, make escalation progress from from institutions, Pat. So the only change that we get as an Indonesian is that we're getting

institutions that's more advanced. Because big institutions, they actually, they need to help, but to, but to help, you know, but to help, And not all resources they have but they're using, they're using,

they're using, for the COVID trial this, we're trials with Imperial College, for example, because Imperial College also, if we're mixed and match with MRNA, how we mix and match with MRNA, and we're sharing data and data again.

Like that. Just so with the data sharing, we can't even more more than more quickly, with more than technology in other, like that. Now, maybe this is a great for Indonesia, because Indonesia is now has been bringing down the diaspora that out,

but this is a question that's interesting, but many people who say, "'Capan you come back to Indonesia, "'Ayo, comeang-can technology in Indonesia, like that. I'm not popular opinion, yes, sir. I think I'm in your camp.

Yeah, sir. I know what you're going to say. Yes. Please, I'll be saying. But I'll just be sure if we're going to catch up with only in the country, we will never get at some point at the same time with any other institutions in the other country.

So we have to bridgeing connection between the other institutions in the United. Can Indonesia is known, if I'm going to be able to titar, Indonesia is quite the power of the people in there, ah, habate the people in the realm of it. Now, why we not manfaited title to be to work in diaspora in the world,

when institution this is working together, we're doing together, we're doing together for the other than Indonesia. That's what I think, because there are... I'm... Right, right. ...sillan, sila.

Because I see, there's been a diaspora that's currently still have been established lab in the UK, there are some kind of hub research center for cancer

between Nottingham with Indonesia, there's a name of Mb. M. Santi, M. Kwan, if I was Santi, Kwan, if I was there, Nottingham. There's also,

as much as much as much as people in different perspectives if Indonesia, in the world, it's not only known as food, tourism, which is it's huge, but we also can be known as Indonesia has sumer of human, scientists

that's capable, like that. Right, right. I mean, I, there's two observations. The first, Because in the 80s, there's film called Field of Dreams. It's a pepatah that nempel in my head of my head. If you build it, they shall come. This is a person who romantic with people and people who are famous players,

that's a but he's still in a farm in America's the American-Sirka, he's made upangoon lapanguble that's great-cant the same thing that's people,

the people are going to come. Yeah, right? Now, that's... The onus is upon us, Indonesians, to make-beignan saran-na-na-now-and-scaran-in-cannad-old, and,

Now, candidly, the saranaghani, maybe, maybe even semapan, like what's in University of Oxford. Yeah, can? It will take time. Now, so long as well as

somemapan what you've seen at the University of Oxford, yeah, the better, yeah, right? That's the commentar my first. The second, I'm looking to the

in context science, yeah, it's, that's more than more open source. So it's more than more than more than democritization of the illu. Yeah, right?

And, as you're still in Oxford to galley the ilmoo as a little more more than you more than democratization for the other for the other than if you're back to Bandung or to Jakarta. Yeah, right? That's it.

So, I'm, I see, I see from two of the two two of the long run, you're actually going to make a much greater contribution for Indonesia and the time in Indonesia to be in the United with, still, for somementara,

galilah, ilmue, so in the same bar, so much, yeah, right? Yeah, sir, now, sorry.

Some frequency, I was I've got to have I've got to come up and I've got to I'm going to be able to, I think I'm going to be able to I'm going to get to make up and I think I'm magnetization, I'm going to be back and to be contributorypresent. And it will happen to you, it will happen to Karina, it will happen to all the others, which is, in the other, in the diaspora our

diaspora, our our, I think, has really, um, nationalism that can't be underestimated. Now, back to code genetica, genome we can, it's from, Angupe-1-24-gien. Yeah, right?

Temptation to re-recahasa, one of four-hurf, this can't much, and it's very, and it's kind of high-as-as-as-allie, what can be built, be-pup-pup-divot, to be-raught to-depant, so that temptation-temptation

like that, it's allured. as a good enough. Yeah. How do you know, yeah, sir. Advanced technology is the the reason for muddha,

ma'amap, sure. Uh, pasty, the scientists, too, many who that

it's interesting to edit anything in our genome. But the problem is, we kind of, Because of the body of the body is not work with, he's not working with the other.

We, we're as it's the way of it for human good. It's justification that's important. Because when we edit something, we have to think, this is the for the good of human's sake, or for just curiosity. Now, there's really, there's not a solacea. There's not a lot of it's about to be reticcation,

but there's one that's to be retimack, what will be able, if, if, if, let's say, like, let's say, what, mitigations. Because, can, life, is, between taking a risk, but we also have to have mitigation, so, because we can make sure.

That, that we can put up to the scientists, that technology is very advanced. We don't have a slowning explore more. But we also, we need, that what we're doing on now that for the guilt of humans' like, that's right, that's right. Okay. Where do you see in Indonesia, 245?

of your 54 years from the same molecular biology Yeah I'm looking 2045 Indonesia will be

as advanced as this is a case, yeah, sir, Silicon Valley where where I'ma am I'm seeing with

many of start-up that now from technology like nonsantics, that I appreciate that's very much, that's a real-mobile, to co-founder or founder-founders-slanders to make startup in Indonesia. Because the market is in there. We have a population that big,

we need improvement in healthcare, so I think in 2045, many people who have been melancho-the-the-noblast, and Indonesia will be the next, in the case of Silicon Valley. Okay. I'm sorry. I'm always ask you to some of the other

narasumber, we've got won't know how many 2005? Hey, you could be the winner. Or maybe B.P. Never doubt yourself. How? How? Or maybe, maybe,

the Nobel Prize for... Oh, no, I would rather interview a Nobel Prize winner. Maybe at some point we can we can't make up when we can't make sure that science is natural, with how much it's not in advance to for the kind of people, I think we will reach at some point to that phase. In spite of what we're saying,

if I'm in fact, I think, in fact, Indonesia deserves to win Nobel in predomayance, curugunan in spite of, and try to deliric in context what we've got we've got to lewati for 2,000 years. It's very peaceful,

stable, relative, in what we've seen in Europe for 100 years in the last year, in what we've seen in America, America Latin, Africa. That minimum, there.

Now, I always be a hypothesis that, peace and stability, that's the becal that's the most rudimentary for we're doing capyance and other. Sucur-sucur,

in science and technology. Yeah, right? Yeah. If you're gung gung, then we're not going to be able to be able to be able to talk, like in molecular biology, yeah, physica, or anything.

Yeah, right? And, I'm, that, I mean, that, this, can, this, there's many many sound bites about about

companies, that's known in the world, because their own-in-enhanes their to make up-o, because of the reasonanning of America America, because their plan for making combinations

and all-and-secre-n't-know-gumannes. I don't know how, it's more gampang, cuop-cub. Mugnaisia, in context tech, to people in the world that far, in Europe or in America, because it's in the headline that's

by them that, if I'm not as well from super-cycle for Indonesia to the future, minimum 5-10-10-down where it will be through disrupts, disrupts, that's very much, and, of course, disrupts, is that about whether it's about in jasa-buanguangan, more-dalen, and even-lebar-larked, with the plantainment,

but with the health, we have not even scratched the surface. Yeah, right? And I'm looking just through with phenomena or episode COVID-19 this, we're making not only deficiency, but it's becoming

that's only potency to the the future that we can do in the sector of the health this is a world-biasa. Right, right? What do you think? Yeah. I'm not sure.

Kesthetan is the part of the distribution is the part of it. For India, in Indonesia. Tell me about it. Yeah. Let's say that system of the our system,

we've got to have system of the national, but I think we still can optimize the system, that's, that's just, that's, and before to go-mobrol of technology, yeah, sir.

I think about that. I think about that. Because of the university, or the other other than in Indonesia, they think about that, but they can't channeling that idea at the moment in Indonesia.

Because, maybe, the teratessan resources, the better of the system. That's why, with collaboration, that's one of the disrupts that's the the disruption of technology in Indonesia. Katakal, now I see Nusantik,

that's going to engagement to industry, which is it will bring both of them, but also to the society. For example, that, you're all right, Shardini, Levy, oh, that's very, and will still and will still be inspiration

for generation, who's in the new, not generation I'm going to be the same. Okay, there's other for us in

Indonesia. Maybe before that I want ask you, you know, you, the program S-3-n-

-s-lety-a-n't- kirk-a-oh- program my four-ttah-tah-tah-tall- I'm sorry, I'm going to to go to the third, I'ma'a if I'maugh.

Amen. We're going to be it. We're going to say. Okay, we're doing. Okay, for Indonesia to the next. The other, for Indonesia to the front. We're going to keep on, we have to be sure of this. Then, to be out of COVID-19.

It's need to effort from all entities, like that, individual, swastas, or other to be able to be out of COVID this, with a report that's good, what is our it should be our...

how it has been our... how it has to be ...it just say, because, Indonesia, because of the epicentrum pandemic, you don't even come,

Then we're in the pariabat, it's come back and we're going to be able to be able to be here. But we're going to have been, we've got to learn from the past month ago, foreign new, we'll, we're going to, this, this, this, this. Then if we add some point in the result out of the pandemic this, what we have we plagiary, so that we can't even the next pandemic

this, sir. And don't look for the people of the United States, because that's one... Without vaccine, we can't get out of pandemic this, like that. And vaccine what's all? And what vaccine? Any vaccine is better than no vaccine.

Yeah, I agree, sir, sir. The vaccine that's the best is vaccine that's available so this. So, vaccine is what? Amen. Amen.

Amen, amen, amen. Thank you, thank you, thank you, for the time for your time. I mean, B'amma, thank you, thank you for your time. I'm not as well in Indonesia, yeah. That's Indra Rudhanshah,

Ilmuan from Indonesia who are at the University of Oxford. Thank you. Endgame is a podcast by the School of Government and Public Policy Indonesia. The first Indonesian Policy School to offer a full-time master's program in English. in English and is a production of the cinema Indonesia's award-winning entertainment

and technology company. Oni Jamhari and Angad Wima Sassonko are our executive producers. Ahmad Zaki Habibi and Jimmy Kuntoro are our supervising producers. Hannah Humaira and Farah Abida are producers. Bobby Zarqasi is our director. Aditya Dema Pratama is our director of photography. Video editing by Felicia Wyradi. Alvin Pradana Susanto is our sound engineer. Ratri Pratiwi Pratiwi Paratiwi Raghmati are research assistants.

Aulia Septiadi and Ferdizal Optama are our graphic designers. Transcriptions and translations by Isfi Afiani. The song you're hearing is by Neil Giuliarso, Ferdinan Chandra and Philippus Chahadi, mixed and produced by Gibran Wiriwianwan. The production of this episode adheres closely to the local authorities' health and safety protocols.