Endgame with Gita Wirjawan - Ismail Fajrie Alatas: Debat & Koalisi Ide di Era Imperium Islam

Episode Date: October 26, 2024

Ismail Fajrie Alatas membahas awal mula, puncak, dan kejatuhan Era Keemasan Islam, serta apa pelajaran yang bisa kita petik darinya — mulai dari masa Kekhalifahan Umayyah (680—750 M), Abbasiyah (750—847 M), hingga Utsmaniyah (1517—1924 M). Dalam percakapan ini, Gita dan Ajie juga menyinggung antropologi Islam dan dinamika komunitas Muslim. Termasuk di antaranya adalah fungsi pesantren dan budaya argumentatif para santri, serta bagaimana Indonesia — sebagai negara dengan populasi Muslim terbesar di dunia — bisa menjadi interlokutor antara Barat dengan negara-negara Muslim. #Endgame #GitaWirjawan #IsmailFajrieAlatas ----------- Gabung Langganan Channel Endgame agar kami dapat terus memberikan konten yang berkualitas: https://sgpp.me/becomemember ----------- Jelajahi dan diskusikan lebih lanjut episode ini di https://endgame.id/ ----------- Untuk ajakan kolaborasi dan kerja sama, hubungi kami di sini: https://sgpp.me/contactus

You can be as a pinter, you can be out of biase. But if you're not a manucusia that you, you're actually making upintrae that's about things that like,

the imaginescate like as a serpian that and it's tip-and-titpacan where it's that, and it's and, and,

for me, that is the idea of Baiteul-Hikma, to build room to comealy for hikmah One of one concede that I see as a concede from liberal philosophy is

angupe that we can be good with it. You know, you can't be good without people who are I really, I really really really,

I'm really sure with, with menusia. I'm always suspicious with, which is important that we're always suspicious with, with, but I'm sorry,

but I'm sure with manusia. Hello, Taman, we're Kedataka Kyi Alatas or Aji Alattas who's ghajah

Middle Eastern and Islamic Studies and history in NYU or New York University. Aji, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I'm a great fan of your show.

I'm a great fan of your show. I'm not so much. I'm not sure much about you. Tell us, tell you, de. You know,

you know, when it's just can't get in Australia, Singapore, Michigan, then New York. Yeah, yeah.

I was, in Semarang, 1983, grew up in Jakarta, until SMP, class

three, yeah, and then, the people said, no, it was 98, and, you know,

there's term oil, and, and, you know, there, you know, you know, to, so,

in Hadromout, the Yemen, because I was doing history, major and minor in Arabic. So I had to, I had to, I was, I was immersed myself in the basis, Basa, Basa,

um, Arab, so I'm going to, kind of, to get to, then, uh, meliutely and

study at National University of Singapore, the, I'm not, uh, and then I'm raseererer, this is about discipline,

so, I'm puto, anthropology, to be appreciates, of the different, different, people

people of people of narrasical people who are people from Rassick to the University of Michigan

and Arbor because he one-saturner because he's one- the first-and-an-thropology so I'm going to take two-daw-n't. So,

so, and al-D-Daw-Las after lullus from there, I'm pruntung so I, can get-uped work in New York University,

that, that's-tlene-old so-to-to-old, so-tlene-old, Not only, but I'm going to be tenure, titheba, just, time I'm getting tenure in the end.

Thank you. Congrats. This, if we're looking see the Islam, many of the

on the on the Islam as as as agam, and

and, maybe we can make acu to the al-mulah par-a-a-a-a- -a-a-a-

-u-a-a-a- umayat. 633-7-11. How much they can occupy territory that's large from

Spanish to Pakistan, but the peradal people, it's a minority and majority Nazarani,

60-70% that's to be anthropologists, it's, inso-a-custor- culture, how that? This is interesting

Because many people people who lot of context in the rabbi Muhammad

that Arabia in abat abat seven, it's a kind of from the old

people are people people who people are Arab, but actually historically

that is a territory that Christian that's that's so

so that from archaeological day we can see we can see monesteris

complex complex biari that big being that started

in many places in Jazeera Arabia. So, it's a Christianized society.

Now, some of the story that's not that the time, that by the time

the time the time, I'm sometimes sometimes, I'm not sometimes, I'm back if it's

a new a country, not, he's he's building a community, they,

he, it's, he, community monotheistic. So, that's like, if we see, if we're in,

say, the word, the word, is far more more than than Muslim. Because believers that encompassed.

It's in-companous. It's also in the people, people who are Muslim, who are people, people, people,

people who are, people, who are people, who are people, who then, who's, so, so,

the title of the community is, amirul-mukinin, yeah, commander of the believers. So,

this, It's, from, from, from, from, the first, the gagas,

community this is a community is a community that's from a lot of people, now, by the time,

we're saying, we're saying to the Umayas, or the Umayyads, uh, it's, we're looking

to look to be built a structure political new, which, um, empire,

yeah, imperium. And that, I'm, They're looking at the people who when we read Ibn Khaldon,

the idea of kingship, with the idea of kingship, with krajaan. Because they want you democratism, they want them, they want them, they want them,

they're doing, but they're being able to because they're looking Persian Empire, Imperium Persia and Imperium Byzantium that's, oh,

this is the way we've been a world, we're making a one, we've been born a perkinumian, and they're just And, even at all

the first of the Umayy, from the conquest, Arab conquest, yeah, penaculuked by the people of the Levant and North Africa, until to dynasty

Umayat, justro, conversion to the agamahism is discouraged. Because, the agamahsum as the agamation

people are people people, so, so, don't even be Muslim, though, and then there's not there's got a different.

And they're, we're notclucked it, they're always them build in the kota kota karnisun

Amsor Garrison City so what not not hangu the community people people who are

people who are people people who what name Armenians and like that we're doing there we're

we're not not not what name it and this one of we're always if I'm

I'm going to I'maer it I'm I'm always I'm saying my students that One of one of

one of polity or, or what, policy in this, the, negara premodern with a

modern, is a country modern, is a break with with the past later. If you,

if the country pre-modern, it's always, he's always, he's always, they want to,

then, so, right, so, yeah, and, when, the,

what, Ottoman what's Naculcan Byzantium they're also make a tital

Caesar and and then the Kaisar and become the unayat even like their

their their is a community as a community from from because if

policy that's not success you're not success because you can't you can't

be continuity if we if we're to Yordan one one RANs from dynasty umayat

that still there. It is Casar Amra. It's hunting lodge, hunting palace. So, the istana berburwned

the second, wallet the second, yeah, waliit the two, wallit the thani. And it's, mozaiquenia and how a person

caliphah presentasiccan his own image of Christus Pantecrator, and he melchis the,

it's, the, the, it's, He's the lookis in Persian Cosseroz and Roman Emperor and he's being disarmacan, it, and then later. So he's going to be samakan, it's part of empire. So that's what we're coming,

even, even, we'reauchy, there's many people, people Nasrani, people, people, Yehudi, and other. It's not there. Because, it's, I'm going to be it. I think, one of the characteristic, characteristic, from empire as a system politic.

He has been sifatting. He's always incorporating what what kind of of the better than structure political and continuity.

You know, I'm going to be able to M.Ibn Kaldun. I think I, I think she was, the first, just to runjurking people to skeptic

to beck. Because, because the story that is that's been based with bias. Yeah. And,

and the there's actually the of the curangan or upon to the about

the history Islam to how much fast forward 750 to 1558 Abbasia to Abbasit There is

Ibnusina Al-Kindi Al-Qaeda Al-Qarishmi The Great Scientist And, and,

this is be maraud in the Pemliharaan Pemupuking Constructs which is called

vital Hymn. Which I think I'm sure with the people people

Hindu, Buddha, Nasrani, Atheis, Zoroastrian Yahudi, Islam, even per

been impin by non-Muslim for some several time. It's is a

It's very the open it which is a sumber or becal

to ramo the quatins preservation and the kind of how that?

How about it? Yeah. So, this the, the kind of

the dynasty Umayat is actually actually enough characternally it's an

Arab dynasty is a suba a empire Arab. But when we're

we're we're about Abbasids Abbasid's more did dominations by the people Persia because

the people Abbas that's really people people are from Khorasan from Rican

from they're they're making capital in Baghdad in Mesopotamia Now there's

then the traditions tradition Persian Kuno yeah can disamping Tadisati

Bizantium which many Mawaii Mastu Mastu to come up to see And,

and, huma this is something something very important. Because, there's hadith that,

Nabi said, that hikma is that'shulatul muamin, something that's from the believers, maca, where, you know,

where you're a time you imagineer can, like, the serpian that is like, and diditipkan in any,

mana-a-tem-tem-a-tem-a-tem-a-mac-a-cli-cli-cli-serpment. And that, for me, that's a idea of Baitul Hickma, to build up back back to hickmah for hikmah

that's cheked in many, now, this is a program that's more because program this is always as can be

many, yeah, scholarship that's charnanan, karekresdalen d'awlo, make that it hathelelah penerjemahan.

But, but while they not only only can't even mernhackan, they're also menolus commentaries,

they also develop like that. But, But, also, in time, the time the people the same

the time it's also probably to be used because of Ghazali, this, this is,

about to the conservation and innovation, also, he's, he's, it's structure

epistemology Islam. So, so, okay, we're all here, we're

but, there's things that as well, theology it's, but it's but it's

but it's not about the whole, but it's like the about Ibnxana and Farabi is,

oh, you know, you're making matematica and engineering, from people people, but because

because, because you authoritative, you also make sure metaphysica their which,

which is the metaphysican with us, the fact, it's, you're, you're, you're able

engineering, you, and they're the logic, but not it's it's something

has to be able so there there intellectual maturity that's there's longbat lawn

in the era abasiah that we we need to we need to a open-mindedness and a but but

also in time we also we also must we need that not

not everyone can be incorporated not everyone can be but that also that's

I'm but I'm I'm I'm not know so much this is a

moment this something that is a dynamica this is like the geala

from imperium superpower artiness that you're when you see

you're seeing power as the center of the world as the world, as

the person the world so much the satellite you can't So, we have to come back to this.

And you invests besar-besarant to build institutions to build institutions that can end up scientists from where, and this, can, then, then, there's been,

there's been, like, let's say, London in the time Britania Raya, and then, United States, now, and

now we're looking doing things same. So, is, this is a one, a repatriationan

Diri as we're superpower, we're a world leader, then, yeah, yeah, the best brains and, like, other than,

you have to be it. If you're able, if we're, we're from Constantinople or from India and all, that, like, that. That's what you

al-Mak-Oleh, al-Mansur, Harun al-Rashit, so, scientific pursuit, that, if I'm that, if I'm not Aristotelian. Yeah.

How much they're always mennjewkan curiosity investigation, pre-existing truth, to axiom. Yeah. Yeah, right? And it's not leapsed

from process penerimaan book-bukes that's by people who people who people who were

from from there one before that's before the first was the first of the Raja Persia. Gondi Shepur.

Yeah, Jundi Shepur B'u. Yeah, Ruffu'u'an before Harun al-Rashit, al-Mak-Mun al-Mansur, And I'm

just through Islamic golden age Anguplah in duracy Abbasia they just through who can preserve

the discipline Aristotelian and Yunani also which, which was very much was very

really now. Now, this is just can't be illustrasic in

the story or dong or dong yeah yeah, And, sorry, and, and, sorry, and and, sorry, and since current, Aristotelian logic,

it's, it's, still being part of curriculum madrasa and asanthren traditional, including in Indonesia, if we're, to presentrae, which Lerbojo, or Ploos,

and, like, on, they're, they're still belajank, and, you know, muntik, and, illu-mongic, formal logic, scholastic, logic.

And it's all Aristotelian. Yeah, right? Because, not you can't who's a person fakik

if you, if you, if you don't know unawasay analogical reasoning that they're there are

from Aristotelian logic. So it's being a bigian of Islamic law Hulcom Islam is built

from one one of the one of one of aristotelian logic. Now, that's

that I think but I'm but also that's then what And what's like, whilepun

there's trend that you that's been that's very much, very scientific and like that but also

in the people in there's people who are people who are more condong to the vision Islam

and and be different than that's that's put up and and perdebatant it's always

there and that's important the debate because it can't and and, finally,

and, um, to be able to a synthesis that's like Gazali, as big as bigue

that's weird that. Um, uh, people, people, um, then,

um, land and it um, more, because when that it,

uh, calipha, yeah, uh, especially al-Makun, to, malmuk, that,

uh, Inquisition, he he wanted to promulgation a suba theology and it's

not ever ever been before you. That's that kind of people, it's like in fact,

this, lo, theology that's been that's the that's the malmun. And

he will be humongue people who don't want to do think

people not, but it has been several years. Ambersame with

Constantine. Ambrill with Constantin and Nicene Creed, yeah, but but but. But, but it's gag.

Project it's gagal. Now, because the gaggal that, ulama, ulama, this, which,

which is, this, this, this is, this, this, this, this,

because they're being, the people, because the people, the world, and,

there's, that's, and, and, time that is yet to

die, to make repartan theology their, who they're theologian al-Mak

not, not-be- now. Semedact that after the country and al-ulam.

And, ulama and the al-al- -an- -an- like, they,

they, they're- playing like check-and-balance to-h- -h-h- -cal-c- -c-l-cath-

-cath-could- because it became domain of the -ul-ul-lama. Now, one of the dampakness is, today, this project project Al-Mamun and Harun Arashid

that, it's actually, that's one factor that's one factor that's factor that is Mongol invasion. Because Mongol-258... 2005-8, Mongol invasion, it's very melancho-lutarchan structures of the information. Although, it, it,

even, it's still, it's been back by Mongolia. But, there, there, break, there. I, too, I was imagination if we can, we can back to

abate the end up the planet we're only there are three the world one of the

one first, angupeh Tang and the second Abasit and the

three Shriwja Yeah and and the eckor that is Shalendra

that yeah who mowbundra for 75 time 25 25 5-8-25

I'm baiangang if if there's intersection between three parado

where Indonesia or Asia Tengara can be per with China and Persia Garis Mering Timur Tengh.

Yeah. Now, that's actually historically Park Gita, Kawasan this,

actually really, it's been long. He's made a cross-road between

China and Timur-Tengar. Because because also the problem monsoon or the the problem

the problem angin that the people from people from say from people from

from Arabia that's coming to he has dented in Malaka in the slat Malaka

to end up but after this actually this this market there's

soing people who that that'd that the time Abbasit

malas before there there there direct sailing route from

from Hormus to to China, to China, to Kuangzhou. Then, then, actually, it's peccah, he made,

he made from Arabia brought by people people of people Arab, to Gujarat, then, commodity in that's puttukkarked

in Gujarat, and then people, people Gujarat, and then, from there, then, from there's,

there's, for the people China, so, so, it's, this, this,

is a maritime empire. But, but also polity policy Islam that's all the same trading empire.

Artinia they're not too be thinking about, like, Maj, Pard,

Pai, but they're more to look that policy policy this, this, this is

to putliction fordegan and facilitati communication communications of traders' traders' communities this.

Maka, Samudra Pasai, Malaca, Ache, then, to the Muck and Bantan, it's still being trading polity that's really,

really, really, most cosmopolite, maritime center, not, not, not, too,

mementting can, because, because they're looking, maybe, we've got, we've got, we've got

we've got competitive advantage as, the region that is the way of connect between two regions that's very

important. But that's kind of it's been back. That's the that's, that's, the pramudianantant

also, that's, it's also, back from maritime, cosmopolitan polities this, then then

back to, like, major, so it's being agraris with mataram mataram kuna, so he's

turnedutut. Yeah. I, to know or belajure on the pandemic in the Jaman

in the abat the 5 that's because of the people Oh yeah Dutah? That's why

we're all the way to Maragascar Yeah yeah, we gaharan them to nanem Adi

Okay and it did plazari by the people Africa, to Africa Uttara,

to Europe Southan. And, people are you know, if you're need to be good,

yeah, and if they got, banjured little, it's muara from the pain

people, and that can't be the pandemic that's the world yeah, the time

Romawi in the abate the 5. And that it's because people people people

from RANGAS yeah, 1,000 500 to Ottoman. If I'm if I'm looking Islam to

kren in three parading. Umayah Abasya and Ottoman. Differensiations Ottoman,

it is they are they're their under militaristic. Not like, like,

the time before yeah, that's important aristotelian for the importance

scientific discovery. Uh, uh, that's, what what can They're not

like before before you Yeah, because yeah, first time, that's about that's the one of the empire that's

the people who are Turks, yeah. And Turks, this, kind of they're awallic pastoral nomads from Central Asia,

from Asia, from Asia, from Asia-tenah, and then then they're really, they're so being,

and, pinter-so-iming. And we're see, we've seen at allureum or sultanate, that's been built by people are Turkish. And it's also like that,

they're not, the people, they're not, too concerned with management of the state. They're more more than conquest, so,

because they're saying it to people, people, Persians, people, who are people, who are

the state. They've been running the state from the state from the Sassanian Empire, to Abbasid, but they're,

so, so they're like, this. People are, this, not too, too, like that.

So, that's like, that's, yeah, they're, because this post-Mongol world, and many,

what, balik, belik, really, in Anatolia, that, kingdom, chief,

warlord, warlord, warlord, they're, they're, and they're and they're, and they're,

um, perluas uh... uh... but also this is the

time in the time otoman that's then the sultan it's not like rely not like dependent

to people tribal chifton to people people people people people who if the country is

the country always be uh... uh... the power it's always um...

...and baron baron and what name-a-naman This is called feudal system to give them to give them them to give us

and then. They're not they're giving to make. Now, Ottoman this is being cut that.

That's, that's, that's, that's, much, it's, because raja

has always be gantong to begantong to this. With what how it? With

Dev Shirme system, it, he's, he's, he's, the, if,

now, that, that's, what, what's the forceful removal they're able, they're giving, let's be balita,

balita from the cargreens, from the, especially from the people non-Muslim, in the Balkans, and then, and then, and they're dedicked

with good, and they're doing elite core, the vizers. What, what, Janissaries. Genisers, yeah, the geniseries.

The genisries, this is, well, loyalness only to the sultan as a yah their, right.

Now, it's, then, because, because geniseries is this militaristic elite that running the state

that they're who are who are in the state means military. Same with you knock. No, no, no. In China. Not in China. Not in China.

Not across the rate. Not. If castrate, the unix that's, that's the right. I see. If this, not.

Okay. But, but this is why Ottoman Empire that is called as early modern state. Because it's had transcissue.

Then, the Raja Mentioned-Rie, which didn't have, that's standing army. Then, then they're making, they're going to, they're going to intervene

the way of lilyahua' un-gamaan, concodification sharia, miscellion. All right, all of the effect, aspects of the life-hik with,

mel, and mufti-movty, this, and, actually, it's, so, yeah, the, yeah, the, yeah, the,

the country makes quite, but it encrgram society. If you Abbasid and

Umayat that, the country not menace not menchankram society. He only about

the problem defense, the problem the problem of the public, but

society have been the mechanism and the mechanismnion for the maintenance it.

Can't be hypotisak about it Ottoman at the end of the war the first it's in the systemic and systematis because

corruptibility of the moral dibunding Umayat or Abbasid which, which resilient in general. So, I'm sorry moral.

I think if if, if, if, if, casus Ottoman that, that's one that's one who's who

who's who might what know how know how them them them

them it's not only if if they it's they're they're

they're actually have been system survival of the fittest art the

raja it didn't have never have been he

he's he just he he only he he only there There's,

there's, a lot of from sultan is a all of the matter. Maka when Raja

not ever make sure that sultan it never made to say, this successor I'mka that's a

person who this is this is this is a bunnobuan one and one of them buchting

what's the people who actually the entire the matter of the chroniclers

that, the entire Sultan-Otoman it's d'an-Talct at the time atopet peti genazza

adi-edek-adik or kakak-kak-nia it, the bougha-kak-kak-khan that's that's what that's actually and but

but after Sulaiman Meper-Irisserie Sultan Sulaiman Meper-Irish Nihuram that, finally there succession

and apacacian and apac-it-un-ul-Otoman that's moment that's like or not or not, but also, in the

other day, they're trying to try to control society. So, many people people who

were the people who were okay with Ottoman Project, not mersa more than it's,

because, the idea, if the empire, is one one of one, that's one

that, the emperor that, Kaiser, it, never, to try encampure

urusance Raja Raja that's right so. Yeah, right. So,

yeah, so it's like federation just, yeah, yeah, uh, that's,

uh, but, but with Ottoman being Ottoman and it's early modern state,

macaa, autonomy autonomy, it's, and it's actually, the time that's the end of

getting cated puasan with auto-sism. I'm looking, from from the Mhmet, to Suleman,

that's Krenman. Yeah, but it's Miny Suleiman, that's like... Yeah. And that,

it's, it's modernization. Modernization to be. And it's, it's, that's, yeah, it's,

he's, being made a socialized state, and it's turned backfire to their people,

people who didn't matter with Ottoman project, I'm really, we're, we're, we're,

we're, we're, we're, so, so, so, so, it,

it, it's, it, And, and, many early modern empires

that that's that's that's people they're in that's that's

that's that's because people, especially Habsburg also even like

when when when they're all over all right, this Croats and Serbs and

and other yeah, yeah, they're not much, they're not much, too,

but if we look benang merrhy, from in the Jaman Umayat Abbasid Sopheot-Otoman, he harmonization antaragamahs, that's relative-tinged

very, uh, barring some aberrations, or anomaly, whether that's, the perang salib, or the militarization of the Ottomans, which,

maybe, a bit, a bit, kind, kind, kind, and, yes,

the one, in the calangue, now, this, why, in the abat the 21 and the 21

is a bit that we're that we're harmonization and agamagam abramic Yeah. What happened?

If I'm in my I would like to hear what you think about this as well

this as well this this is one is is there is a,

is a with with the with the a country modern. Because if

the country didn't encampurry the hume from the society. This is, this is that, this,

Abbasid, Umayets, they're, they're not legislate the, the, the, the,

the, public enterprise. Yeah, the, the, the public enterprise, like, rebin,

law, for the people people, people, people, people, the, now,

this, back, when, when, when, when, when, the,

when, slate of the right. And then, if you had they had been made middle system

means, I mean, it's a government that have beenpuny court's and the human and

have the way of the way and we're not, we're not including, we're not necessarily taxation,

but also taxation also, they're also, they're also, they're also, people, there's,

there, people, there, there, and, there, and, they're

not not not much non-cumption this community so it's very much there's

there's not not too not too but in the community is community that is common and

not much much much many much and back back to modern state that's

there's there is there imagines about standardization of and all right

and it's what the name legislate by legislate by the country and

like, and so that mucular terminology like the terminology like the minority yeah,

right, religious minorities, people who are people who are people that were that's

the country just like just like like in the messer with people

people, they're they're they're they're they're but now

the the right because the government and the government and the

government and the then, actually, get a tegangen. Because, the time they're communities

who are living living with dampingan, now, then it's religious minorities and then category in the same

in the law. The government a world. What, the way, to be harmonization to comeally. Meharmonisatik

in the bali. I'm in the kamban yeah, agama Abrahamic and other. Yeah.

I, actually, I really, I'm sure with, with the human, I'm sure. I'm sorry

suspicious with the which is important that we're always suspicious with the country, but I'm sure

with the communities, communities of other than recog in, by political and by the unruous

in the country, I think they're, I think, they're, they're all different and they're

making, manusia, it's not even when communities, to build a relationship but at least when a subunitist, then, as a group of agamac,

man, make capture a country, and then then, then, then, then, then,

then, the community, community, the other, this is the other than, this, community,

the other, the, they're, they're, the, coercy, coercy, the,

so, I think if if we're if we're back to the community communities communities, that I see

many, many people, but if it's that's too, if it's too, it's been part of dynamica political

with all the dynamics it, and it actually became the getagangangans. If, if they're to the

people to the civil society, I'm, that's also in cuboo that's theimbanger between the people who are at the level that's the level

that's right. Because if too despotic, yeah. Goyang, too. But if if too, so too silent, it's too,

that's too that has to try the benguanguant on two that which, that makesitakant. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, TATA Nagara, but also communal, but right. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. But, but the problem is, I want to try to mungus in context Asia-Tengara. But we had spent gawbrough beforemion. In 2000 years,

2000 years the last, the number of Asia, end uproarer, bydasarine, by thebidation and opinion

to be related with ethnicitas agama or or race, that's not more than 9 million. In Europe,

for duration that's 190 million. I'm looking this becal that's not quite

because people people are a aga alpha. Neanderthals. If if we if we're non-Neandotals so we're not

beta. Now this becal for pertemannan yeah becal for

and persatuan and persatuation that that's that's that's we've got we're

in the time in the this is I'm in the same way I'm but that's but that

the world principle how we're making making the amount and quality public goods yeah

or whether it cheshetraan health, cahatat health, the need social, nilililil

moral whatever, that's what's community community Singapore, this.

Singapore, this He mustsick, while upon a bit long, the hand the government,

but he is bullet to make the process democratization public goods and quality the quality. I'm going to

get economic prosperity that will happen without pertamannan and peace and stability, without carmonism. We've got

great in Indonesia and Asia Tengarra. There's one again, the name of the culture principle.

Not know, pananana how about? Now, buddhap this, this, this, now, it's come in

where. Is it something that is something imposed top-down by the country with

all the institutions or, or, he has been something that's something that's

from, the bottom, yeah. Ideally, from, down, to the But if

if you're if you're under IQing but the piece of not from

to to to public culture in in at the in institution

social, in in the where it chit, a hard,

I'm might be that, we're We've got got gontok-gontokan about the people who gotang of from the Sumatra, from this, from this,

from it, from it. How much, we're trying to get-dash. How much? How's up to be moral? How much? Now, it's ideal. But I'm not glit.

Gampang. To make a depend on political culture like that. Yeah. Which, more, more than top-down. But, this is, It's going to with quotient

on the yeah yeah yeah yeah if you're about, for being about,

misdemeanor or people, and other than that's, it's in there's been there's been the government

and it has been that's going to make facilitation this this all and it but also

also in time I'm I'm also I'm that the country that can make it

with it's they have been mitra with civil society And that's one

one example that's a example that's bad from the case of America America until

when Tocoville came to America and he looked how much it's the work in America as a place

and America and the government and never give support to and not to the room that he

makes the place for large for civic education that is very different with

the case Europe, that with secularization that's the secularization that's that's the same and other but if you're

because if you're case of America this is quite better because the country the country makes support, they're making

means of the education and and other and but also give them become people people of people of

agama. So, because now, because church it has been institution civic that

is very that I'm that I'm something that good to be learning for the community.

Because the communities communities community's community's there in Indonesia. Institutions

institutions, institutions, the institutions of the subject, they're not looking they're

looking their people, they're from the people, from the government, to make,

um, to pursue agendaner. Can, this is, I'm not, I'm, I'm looking

more, we're, we're making don't, institutions what, what name is, then,

then, then, with institutions institutions that that's more more than more than the community,

because of not the country, justerum to help, institutions, insidussies, that's, you can, make them

their facilities, and bring support, and all the , and other. Because, because they, many, from communities

communities, this, has been working this is, and, and, the,

in the United States of this is in a made-a-midra in realisation the big-your-kind. I think, uh, more than the country that can't make- big picture,

yeah, can, they have been putting down and have found out of this, but there are people who have done having been working big picture that, without what I'm going to know

to what they're doing, that's like, that's I'm looking-in-in-an-antar- But it's the latter the two-in. But, can, sulid if at a a suburbatic politics it's,

because at least the communities of communities this community-as-in-in-in-law. Only did get-ed-kind-it-kind-mit-a-law, after, after, after, after, that, it's, kind of, at all,

it's just, maybe, it's been-bend-s-as-a-old. So, it's not really And it's very... Very episodic. Episodic. And, and,

actually, also, relasiness more hierarchies, transnational and hierarchies, kind of, betimbing. The country

can't make up matrimat. I'm going to find out. I'm trying solution. How much we can't

make a new political culture in level apopin, in anypun. Agar buddaya perfectionism

or to to find superlative. This I try mungus in context how much we're not want, this chay and has

been to be going to be the country and the country and every day think they're like yeah

yeah, yeah, Korea, South, yeah, not, China, like,

India, Taiwan, Singapore, that, if I, I, cur, productivity

of Singapore, it, per- people per-town, and JASA, it's, it's, $200,000.

Indonesia only $25,000. Yeah, want, not we need, we need, buddhae that's new, so we can make sure productivity that's only with investations in education and technology

or innovation technology. Now, I'm not going to look there's percapable like this in institution social, in the place Ibadah, at school,

in room, in the can'tor that's enough. And I'm I'm not really in the jama'amab, Abbasia. That they're making, too. Not like in synagogue, greeja,

meschip, can't work, school, roomatang, like, I'm going to be so that we can be more safe.

How much how to be cerdas? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now, I think,

what, um, the, um, the, one of, the, the,

because, because, because, or, what namany, communities as this as in as as a big

matter, make sure, in the people, people, they're, they're just just,

we're doing the, we're making meditations without, without, misabotka, down,

the while even the mechanism yeah, actually, the mechanism's, actually, but this, came back,

like, we, this, what I, that I, yeah, that I, the, , you,

the, , you, the, mechanism, mechanism that and dynamica it's a man, Imam,

pastor, pastor, rabbi, what namanns, what namah, everything, it's, and so, like,

the people, people, and, always, and be consultations with their people,

and there, dialogue, there, there dialogue, there, dialogue, between civil society

in, religious communities, with, misalance, the, people, Now, that's what I see

didn't see, that's not really so, they're going to it, but actually, basically, basis is,

basis is, there, basis is there, but it's, but it's going to where, reseruusan,

from the people, the people, from the, what, namo of, the, the,

people, to, really, to be, this is a common project, that,

we've got to do we We're talking about PESANTRAN There's There's a question in Indonesia Pandanan

you're How much to Anguplah PESan this be perperan For

the importance College Social Reengineering From from Ciculum From

Sisi Pemberdain Gouru I'm I'm I'm I'm more percied

than Curiculum But this each Masing Pesantran, this BEDA with the other. Now,

is it, you know, so, penicaping, for, yeah, if you can, guru who

did the personatran is like how much, curriculum like how much. Yeah, right?

For the peoplean, the country and peradaband. And, and, same too with school

Nasrani, yeah. School Hindu, school, Buddha, and of completely, then we're just, yeah,

we're doing just, yeah, we're doing good. If I, if I'm in this, I'm going to

think that sub-San-en it's not, and he need to be suragam-can, because we've been putting in school national,

and it's too, too, too, the sentry-sand-i-sant-i- -sant-an-er, they're-menged in school-s-a-n-n-n-sion-

because, for me, the-san-s-s-s-san-s-s-s-s-san-sand-l. ... The present-terine, I always make-gap that if we're being a lot of institution of

education, it's too too small to to understand. Pesan-tran, it is, institution tradition, and tradition is form of life,

if, if, the concept of Wittgenstein, it's a form of life. So, he, it's going to make, the whole idea of the personatene

is not the whole idea of the personteren is, like, just cursive, like we're in, in the

pediccan modern or in university but he is a community where manned that can be a manusia

that can't with pertamana and and and did it people to live in a

tradition that even even should be back so that he can be being being a

being that that that part part of part of one of

contribution of the big pesant trend to what, what, what, um,

for things things, because you can as pinter whatever, you can be able but you can't be

human who, you know, you're going to use the kind of other than you to do that. Now,

I see that the power, the pen, the, he's, he's, he's, he's,

he's, he's, he's, the, and, the, the, the,

uh, yeah, at the time he's he's school, like, the doctor,

and being engineers, and he still be people, because he became over people,

and this, one thing one thing, that's, one thing, uh, Panty, uh,

concede, that I see, concede from, from liberal philosophy is, the, that we can't

be good with the samerily. Uh, so, this notion of sovereign self, that, eh, I,

This is a bitabular to to be able to be able to be. So, if I'm going to be able to beater, I know, man who are good, man who are you, but if you're in

the other, tradition of more than ancient Greeks, that you, you, you can't be able to without people, people who, without people,

without community that's being around. St. Augustine used, I've been said, Benhance of yourself. Built by yourself,

you built a ruin, got it. Yeah, Right, right, we're going to build and we're going to run-tuan. We're people. And that's what I see part of the part of

the centerian, from monastic institutions, and, like that. Because, like that, misaliening in Thailand just, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Many of the people, it has, um, in a world, the world, he's, he's being,

he's making, he's making, and, like, and, like, and, like, that's all things that's

something in the tradition modern that's true to under the discursivity

on the waccana, on the time of and other that I'm that I'm see,

institutions like as a form of life that that's to be to be used to live

in a rhythm in a thing that's that I'm that I'm think more

better than be able being began began that another that and

that is national and so many. But just true how it's it's like. Now, is it's already better better.

If you're people, if you're not not be able to university. If you're not even better better than

better than. That's what I'm that's what I'm important. Because if I see the trend in Indonesia, this,

the trend then modernization dirnization the dirinian, I think that defeats the whole purpose. The present

this is not should be a institution modern, I'm sure. He, yeah, yeah, be it's

a bit of institution tradition that's based and foundation from the people of

Indonesia. That's who can't move which is. Because he tradition, because he's

because I'm actually, by definition, he is conservation and innovation. That's what can't tradition to live.

If not, if tradition to be jumut and like what name it taklid just,

it's actually it's actually, it's actually, it's actually, it's actually, of Scotland, he said, he said, he said, because he's up,

because he's up from two different argument. The first is argument in the anter pananuts a suburb, which, which is the bad, which, man, that's one, which, man,

and there's been, and there's been people, people from the other tradition that, that's not, that's the problem, that,

that's the problem, if we're, if we're going to get to the present, man, it's, it's argumentative so. Yeah.

And, and, Scholastic tradition is like that. It's very very much back to precedent and analogical reasoning

because aristotelian logic that's important I think that I think that's more more than that. I think that's more. I mean, that's like kind of like the orang

India. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, is jago bedonging because they're very buddhary

to be argumentation about anything about. Yeah. Yeah. So, it's clearant

to the people of people who people who people in the dimensioning in the

world because they can be argumentation and I'm there's disagreement in this

just there just in how we need re-engineer apopun so that the IQ

we're to 9 to 107 to sure melampoey aQu of Korea Selata

106 Singapore 1005. How much how to position our position our

our number three or number two number two in the number one in where the amount of

the product product product product we're not more than more quality that.

Tionk is university is just 2000-an we're we're we're 5,000 but

quality of education their more than be partangue can be under that the

people that's in the in the penitran, like in monastery, in school, whatever, like, that's the barren. Yeah, that's, I mean, it's allusioning, that's allotting, because, you know, the, I mean, it's the way, it's allusiness, it's allusiness, it's not, right? It's not really, because, because they're, you, and sometimes mutuing it's questionable. Sedangka,

people are people swastah also, making, what, namé, institutions, institutions of the other. Which, which, actually, the university and other

other than universities that we don't know competitive advantage of what, because, because, and each-masing, mower one another ketimang,

miscarry specialization of and the kakotan and the kakotan each, you know. Now, but, but, this,

I think, Yeah, it's, there's a, what name, the way of the intervency negation in this,

that's the way of the way. Because this can be the one of the way is a pathway

that's clear that. Because every institution also, not know what specialization it,

then, the, that's, not, not, jelas to matter, if,

if, if, if, if, if you want to belajure this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, will be able to be able to be able to be able to. But, that's, it's going to be able to belaugn't.

I, not-bezzed this, this one, because, really, you know, because, first, yeah, don't know big picture. And because, because, um, reasoned death their, not even, but, really, mementue life. We're really, mementue to the home of life. We're to Timur Tengh

7 October Torn Lalo to come back. This is very painedekan. What's the way out? Prospect for two-state solution

to, is? I think, see, no-state solution, is, it's something that that's almost almost paled. Because,

you know, from, from the area, just. Israel, it's 80% the airn't

undergant to be able to back. So if West Bank that's like the government

to be in it's not it's but it but it's that's about one state

solution, if in Israel is a criminal offense and it can be pidana only

just about being a just about one state solution. But can actually

if if if you go to Theodore Hertz he He's

He's not only He said, and Salahatunvel that he he's written that he israel that he imaginescican

that it's not Israel that's like I'm Israel where I think that he said he said

where the people of the room of the room of the Jewish that made

a one one one one one and it

and be harmonized so so so viz zionism it

is not not everyone like it like this. What is what you can be

ideology this is a genosidal genosidal zionism yeah if there there are

there many many many things but yeah it's it's the it's

something that's something that's something important because because yeah from

from from not by the first can't people who people who are people who

Dijajajah in there. And they're not make knowledge that they're a settler colonial state

that's a settler acknowledgement it is the only way forward. Because I'm not I can't see consequences other from

first a one, a concept of a country modern, sovereign territorial state and the two,

conception about ethnicities. At the time you gotbunked two this, yeah, yeah,

yeah, the natural consequences yeah, he can be suicidal. I mean, I don't see this

a bit of aberration, but this is the natural consequences. At the same, you know,

the first, is ethnic ideology and ethnic supremacy, and one of the sovereign territorial state. That's the

that's that's that's and at the same that's there are military industrial complex and like and

that's long. It's been long. I'm going to see that's very proactive

to try to try to make make make make sure that it fatah with Hamas yeah

that's anyone that's partar yeah yeah which I'm

which I'm Iran Indonesia as Muslim majority the big in the democracy

the best number three. Why not can't be interlocutor that's natural that's what?

Atas dasar what we can be interlocutor that natural at the time we don't, our diplomatic

power we are our diplomatic power we're still long lemah, I think than, and, we're not putting

the publication with Israel. Andas to be interlocutor to I don't know how much. But,

but existence we're in democracy terbesar number three that's diacui, utah

by the world. Existency our own majority to be sure utus, do acu to be

there. Want to not there, relation diplomatic. Yeah, if you know should be

it's been there, no. Some some who's who's So, sohunei

Sama someone who's people who's people who in Gaza or in Palestine in Palestine as far as a whole

because because Indonesia I see I've seen since this time not never

never playing partia serious yeah playing can as the Muslim world yeah

um um um maybe there peripheral mentality or like Like what's like,

so, I think, it's, I think, has to be able to be able to, that, yeah, we're the most populous Muslim country in the world, and, while we're just away, we are supposed to lead,

and we're supposed to lead, and, and, and, if, we're making can play it, also, we're, can, be heard by, like, the country, Arab, or by Iran,

and, we're, we have a good with the country, the Arab, we have a good, with Iran. But, we're not,

not, not, not, make make sure in the same between, between the other

and the country and the country, yeah, right. Now, that I think, is because

there, there's root so-pangang that we know, that we're that, our country

that is, the, from the Muslim world. So, so, we, the,

yeah, the, yeah, that, I think, something, that, although,

Suarno, I think, in the first not, not, not he's bettob

that he's one of the leaders of the Muslim world and he's until now, the people

in the people in people also much much much people. I'm spent

he'd ask, during, d'u d'n't Rottonon. Singaporea also has been

Naurator Namedu. Yeah, but, but the betteran between Bungarno with Likwaniu

is if Sukarno to, maybe more ideologically biased. Siapapapun in the world who want to hear it, that's

that's maybe minging with ideology yeah. But if you want to be from monarchy like,

autocracy, like democracy, like democracy, want to be dener. Now, if, if,

I'm in the future, to, Indonesia has, with the narrator which,

which is it's it's enough ideology neutral. Yeah, right.

From anywhere want to hear. Want people who don't want people who not have people who

kind of democracy, like, democracy, like, whatever, that's that's

still want to hear. Because maybe quality don't the,

quality narrasiness. Now, that narrative narrative that also, you can

have been back up with a what the name of a I'm not I'm sorry that's

that's too that's one of the one of minimum in the which I see the

Republic of India that we we're we're because we're really

not really not not put in narrati that really correct can be

cring can be don't yeah can't because this is not

the country that's a garab that has been storytelling tradition that's that's that's

very much and that's that's really back again back to the institution institution

and we're too doctriner and not dogmatic yeah and not also become

becoming become being being something something that's and

because because I'm bad yeah yeah I'm yeah

this this is this this is yeah yeah yeah yeah

if you people in the person train, it's, they're pinter, uh, part of, uh, gusdur,

that's very, super pinter, that's one, one, uh, kai-inu, that's the, the most pinter

because, because it's, because it's, part of the thing from the end of and it's, and it's better than,

misdiction modern, that's, this facta, this, this, you're, this, you're, or,

uh, skills-in- you're, or skills-n-an- you're- that you're just, the, is,

um, ambiguity, is ambiguity. He can be tapirs, multi-tafsir. And it's, then, it's been based from imagination

that can be able to the box, and even, even if you're, even, you know, people like, philosophy,

is out of mythology, because mythology is what sparks wonder and bewilderment. And when you're shocked, you, why,

why can be this. Why, can't be this. And that's the birth pang of philosophy. But, in tradition of our tradition of

we're not into the tradition in the tradition in terms of time data data data data which is fine that's important but if you

if you're making data that you're not being narrasiccann that you're that you're that you can you can't there's a

one of a anthropologist that's sometimes she's about the theory political in Indonesia from from adu-a-um miscelling

just a lot adu-a-a-a-am but he can't comebanking it, be sure about that's the that's the

that's the intellectual intellectual intellectuals this is like that. Data is not much but it's

sometimes, this is this is happening, the time, the certain of the people to come

to get to the journal, the most of the American, that's the

data you can't do with it is, how are you going to do with it? How can't it's been

institution we're, sastra, it's not there's serious and there's and there's and more than

more than to learn philosophy. So, even more than epistemology. Apopun-upus. Apopun, whatever.

Yeah, yeah, and, and people, yeah, we talked about about Indonesia,

is, gila, galar. Yeah. But, but if they must be able to RANh

or pentas international, must get the process peer review and line, yeah, They're not

They're not know that rigor that's underdeging in the out there is big too.

You're one of not many product of the product and you're narrasical,

mendongenkan, menceritak and that that's also that I'm what I'm what I'm to say

but how you say it that matters form it's It's very important. And,

the really people in the world of us under the world of really, experimentation

with forma, with narration, with forma and how much capture imagination that's important so, to practice

to make the plight, the kind of, that's, that's, that's always there,

if there, while, there, there's, there, there, there, there pattern,

and there variation, yeah, Pattern's very limited, but from pattern it's a person dahlang, it's, what,

namen from variances variations, variations that's the way of course, that's the humahirate one, using pattern, pattern that limited

to make them backer and parisim and variations, variations, and then, come back again to make them, the same, the same,

just a person, that you have have been putting packam awal'n't, but then you, but then you're, back again,

back, that's, that's, that's, that I think, I mean, system of our system

when I'm going to teach. I'm going to asker another, that was a, when I wasa when it, the government, it,

and it was there, and it was a perdebatant best, this in 2006. Because they, because, they're, they're, maybe,

I'm trying, we're, we're taking clots in the machine, that's even top, but tibetableness, but tibetabre. They're getting,

yeah, again, then, the position, position top-in-sac, aggrained to expect and that's all. And that's a problem.

InSignableness, until the same time, this, not-susial. Massal. Entrepreneurship, not that. When that,

when that, the government, in-cate-cant-an- entrepreneurship, because, the people, the people, the same-in-

-bran-old-old- -old-old. So, that. So-sssss. Yeah, Because, it's true. Right, they're not. They're not really, and they're doing it.

And they're doing it. So, if we're, system of our own, we're basest by, it's not as if it's not, if it's not, you're not too imaginative, have to talk about, yeah,

we can't be being, and, and that I'm, and that I'm gonna from the people from India. They,

they're, they're going to be on about about what about about. Yeah. Orang Indonesia. If you're out of the country, people are

about about but you're very different. You're going to New York. Bercita about history, be sure about Islam, Timur-Tenha,

Indonesia, whatever. Now, this, I'm going, people who, brandy, be sure about topic that

something that's different. It's more messerick, capacity and ability to be it. Right.

Right. And, and, that's, if I'm, if I'm, if I'm that I'm

that I'm much much and I'm not psalam why. There's there's university

and I'm under the Indonesianis from the world, so I'm saying presentation

in the people, So, so, if we're, if we're confrances in academia, seminar, that's all about Indonesia, you know. You're going through many of those. You're going to beman from

about people to be sure about Indonesia. That's I, I'm not... So, I'm sorry. There's topics, like, conferences or, like, in human error or social science, who, and, you're being

about the country other, about things. And it's, and it's, it's... This is one thing, which is enough systemic, that's difficult to internationalization.

Narration we're Yeah. How do you How do we can internationalize narrative perspective just we're quite yeah. It's like,

it's like, and it's already from, I think, from primary education and secondary education to we're not about about,

um, about the story of other than, we're not many, yeah, okay,

this is, we're going to understand we have to understand it in a broader perspective. And that I think, it's hit-of-nia, it's.

As a country cross-road, it's, really, yeah, he's making interlocutory role, memaking role. So, not-bishopment of the narration national is too inward-looking.

Not to look at... ...areus out. ...that-not-lead that... ...we... ...it... ...we... which is more, you know,

more than the way. I mean, you know, you know, you know, you're going to question last.

Yeah. Sorry, I didn't answer your question that's about about the time. It's not.

I'm going to answer. Now, but how. But how so, there's a people,

people, like Aji. Ah, who can be in NYU, you, can't be in

Imperial, can't be in Oxford, can't I'm ajar. I, if I'm looking at campus

international, it's too people are people people. Yeah. People are Indian. People are Palestinians.

But, the most India. Yeah, India. Gila, yeah, yeah. Gila'uera.

Yeah. Now, that how? You've done it. You've done it. You've done it. You've got a year.

Yeah. Now, how much there's, yeah. Now, All over the world. Yeah.

One of the one, I think, actually the government has done with, there's program like LPDP and all that. But if you're not really, and then,

when you're not as well as as he's, to be able to that, I mean, it. I mean, we don't see that one of one of

strength our one of the state we have the diaspora that's quite, and it's with India and and, they're

they're, they've got to diaspora that's quite. So, so, the government with the

publicing being people are in even during because people are people who are from Indonesia Timur, if they're

being access it as well people who are people who are people who are people who are it's a first step that,

that they're having to bea international. But the second is, don't getep to be sure come to come back.

I mean, so, that's about, that the country has been really serious, to look that diaspora, this is a set

that's really to dook. And if you're betel, and if you're like Israel or Ireland, they're,

the country that fund professorial chairs, in where-mah that's, that's very thing, we're really,

one, not have, Malaysia, have two or three. Yonkuk, many, yeah, Tongok,

Malaysia, yeah, Malaysia, chair. At Oxford. In Oxford, there. In Ohio, the University of Ohio there.

We don't, because we don't realize that, yeah, it's, the world international this is, supposed to be our playground too, yeah. Not only here, but it's just, I think

it's a period. I think it's a lot of time, but I, I'm optimistic that we are heading to the right direction. Amen. Amin.

Insha. Thank you, Laji. Thank you for having me. Pleasure. Teman, that's Professor Ajalatatas from NYU. Thank you.

This is... This is endgame.