Endgame with Gita Wirjawan - Jack Dorsey's Answers to Bitcoin Naysayers

Episode Date: January 19, 2024

Join Endgame YouTube Channel Membership! Support us and get early access to our videos + more perks in return: https://sgpp.me/becomemember ----------------------- Jack Dorsey and Gita Wirjawan engage in a conversation to explore the intersection of technology, finance, and social impact. These two influential voices discuss how Bitcoin might serve as a beacon of hope in creating a more equitable world. Jack is the Co-founder of Twitter (X) and Square. The host, Gita, is an Indonesian educator, entrepreneur, and visiting scholar at Stanford's APARC. Recorded on October 27, 2023, at the Indonesian Bitcoin Conference 2023 in Bali. #Endgame #GitaWirjawan #JackDorsey ---------------------- Understand this Episode Better: https://sgpp.me/eps172notes ---------------------- SGPP Indonesia Master of Public Policy: [e-mail] | https://admissions.sgpp.ac.id | https://wa.me/628111522504 Other "Endgame" episode playlists: Technology vs Humanity | Daring Entrepreneurs | The Take Visit and subscribe: SGPP Indonesia | Visinema Pictures

Jack, I want to thank you for appearing on the Indonesia Bitcoin conference. It's unfortunate that you couldn't be here physically in Bali, which is the island of the gods. Presumably you've been to Bali. I want to ask you a few questions this morning or this evening in the U.S. I want to start off with your background. You were born in St. Louis, Missouri, and you started out helping your mom with making cappuccino at her cafe. Curiosity has been a big driver in your life. Talk a little bit about how that has driven you into becoming what you are today.

Well, I unfortunately have not been to Bali and I'm looking forward to going at some point in the future. I'm really sorry I couldn't make it in person. I just missed scheduling and could not give from New York to Bali in time for the end of the conference. but in terms of yeah I'm from St. Louis my first job was my mother's coffee house she she chose to St. Louis is a very segregated, divided city

she chose to put her coffee house right in the center of the city was definitely a place where the people from all over the city came by and I learned a lot of about my mom, my, my city, and entrepreneurship from that. I had no desire to ever be an entrepreneur, but I learned everything I needed to from those moments and got my second job, which happened to be a contracting job with my co-founder at Square, who had no idea, found a company with, had no desire to found a company.

But after Twitter came back to St. Louis and found him again after over a decade. And we created Square and around the same time the Bitcoin white paper came out and there was just something in the water that inspired me even more into another phase. I want to follow up with the following question. You have made or created Twitter, which has a lot for communication to be a lot easier for the global community. You've made Square, which is not block, you know, for purposes of making commerce a lot easier for the global community. you've quoted William Gibson who said that the future has arrived but it hasn't been evenly distributed yet

I want to take that to the context of where we're living here Indonesia which is a developing country I know you spend a lot of time in Africa and other developing economies do you see hope for a far better far more even distribution of the future that has arrived? Yeah, 100%. He said that the future is already here.

It's just not even my distributed. That was this quote. And I think it's a beautiful way to capture what we're all trying to build. Everyone in this room has certainly felt the future. We felt it with a transaction that we received. of the first time we created a public-private key pair for Bitcoin the first time we read the white paper. I certainly felt that magic the first time maybe some of you have gone on oster and experienced apps and you know the biggest at-scale experiment of micropayments for content

on the internet that I'm aware of. And you can you can feel it immediately and you know it's just a matter of how we distribute it, how we spread it, how we get it to more people. And I imagine, you know, that's the work of a lot of people in this room. We have many developers, we have engineers, we have designers, we have advocates, we have educators, every person plays the role. And, you know, the magic all kind of comes back to this like very selfless act from Satoshi, create something and then gave it to the world to develop further. And there was a beautiful and again selfless gift and it's our job to spread it. But with every technology I found it, like when I first experienced the internet when I was 12 or 13 years old in St. Louis, you had that

feeling like this this is the future why is it not everywhere right now but you know it's just going to happen and that's you know what I felt with Bitcoin and what I feel right now with with Noster and um and uh yeah I hope you've all felt it too because if you feel it it's much easier to spread and it's much easier to spread that future has to be tangible before we get into Bitcoin. I want to talk a little bit about technology. A lot of people have been saying that there's been a pretty significant degree of suppression of innovation in the past few decades. I know it's kind of weird because we've heard a lot about, you know, innovations being made here and there in many parts of the world. But, you know, there's this argument that the central bank

hasn't really been too innovative. You know, the only thing that they've been innovative in would have been by way of doing a massive scale of quantitative easing. And it hasn't really reached, you know, most parts of the world. And it's gotten a little more elitized since a few decades ago, you know, from a global economy standpoint.

would you agree to the statement that you know there's been a pretty significant degree of suppression of innovation in the last few decades and if you did what do you think would be the antidote and would bitcoin fit into that uh well we're i mean in the last few decades we had bitcoin so certainly there wasn't a suppression of innovation. We had something major that I think well it certainly replaces the need for the bank that you just talked about. And I can't think of a greater innovation than that to replace an entire institution, replace an entire system, you know, give something that, you know, people can use directly, see directly trust because they can they can verify it directly um that's pretty powerful and pretty innovative so i don't think

there's been as if there has been any suppression of innovation it worked because it creates more innovation and uh um you know the the right way we'll always find a way and um no matter how many people are our systems um are created to suppress something there's always there's always a way out and i've certainly experience at my own lifetime and my own creations and my own work. And, you know, I think we're at a yet another precipice with Bitcoin with Noster. I think there's a, I think Bitcoin showed a path, an alternative path that reminded us of the early internet that that was against the path of a more centralized corporate internet. that you know my my company was was going down as well and i think um that reminder was important

and it only um it only helps um bloom and you know a thousand more flowers of people thinking about similar things and and and building uh towards that mindset and i do think that is innovative I think that, you know, we, the world kind of sees things that move fast as the most innovative and they may in the quote unquote crypto space, they may see things like Ethereum as innovative because it has so many developers and it moves so quickly, but quickly towards what is the question I think we need to ask. Bitcoin has been very deliberate and that means it's a little bit slower but I think if the use case is currency if it's replacing the central bank you speak of if it's replacing the

medium of exchange that that we believe is possible and required for the internet going forward don't we want it to be deliberate don't we want it to be a little bit slower Don't we want it to have the properties that Bitcoin is exhibited from day one? So while that may not be seen as innovative because it doesn't iterate as fast, it will last longer, and it will probably outlive all of us in this room. And I can't think of a deeper innovation than that, something that lasts, something that spans generations.

So I don't know. If there was this impression, it certainly produced the right thing. Well, I wasn't referring to Bitcoin as something that would have been suppressing innovation, but I was referring to most other things. You've alluded to the beauty of Satoshi Nakamoto being a pseudonym. and in the context of the creation of Bitcoin. Why do you think that was a good thing, that it was created with a pseudonym?

I don't know why Satoshi created it with a pseudonym, but the reason why I believe it was the right thing to do is because it removed the ego from the equation. It enabled people to come in and participate and add, you know, their own voice and ego to it. And it didn't, it wasn't about, like we had so many years and I was part of this, right? We had so many years of this lionizing founders and cults of personality. And, you know, just like this found.

under ethos and how we put you know these these people on on an altar and you know i was i was in a you know very similar position and satoshi chose a different path um which was pretty spiritual in a sense in that uh whoever this was didn't want to be didn't do it didn't feel unnecessary for for the work to be attached to their personality and their ego, and it could speak for itself. And, you know, a pseudonym was the way to do that. And the work spoke for itself. I mean, if Satoshi came back today, I hope people would thank whoever this is and be grateful, but I don't think they would change the course of Bitcoin much, given how much it's, You know, it was built with that intent of living past a particular identity and past a particular person and it's worked.

You know, we've, we can all participate to carry the torch of it. And that's, again, that's pretty magical. When is the last time you experience anything like that? I don't know of one occurrence. I can't point to one other occurrence where someone created something of such importance and consequence

without attaching their own name and personality and ego name one zero I know you've been asked before but I'm going to ask again could you be Satoshi by any chance

no no no no I don't know I don't know but I'm very I'm very grateful and if I knew who this person was or would ever have the honor of meeting this person, I would just say thank you because it reminded me of why I fell in love with the internet in the first place, why I fell in love with programming, why I fell in love with building and creating and, you know, cryptography and all cypherpunks. like all that Bitcoin and Satoshi in 2009 was a combination of

like my childhood and my curiosity and everything that I aspired to be and everything I loved and I you know my life went a different tract but it was a good reminder of what was important and I hope to get back to that

even through corporate lens, which I'm a part of right now with block and square and form my Twitter. You know, we seem to be living in a world where values have diverged. And at the same time, wealth has diverged. And we're seeing this great tendency of people's wanting to immortalize themselves, as opposed to the institution. it just kind of feels that we need a lot more people or anybody like Satoshi who's never interested in immortalizing himself. I mean, he was really great at immortalizing institutional building, which I think the global community has learned to enjoy a great deal. Would that be the right path of thinking?

to follow following this person's path? Yeah, I mean, you know, he's never given us speeches, right? Yeah, I think we've seen a bit of it. I mean, I know one recent example is Noster, like Fiat Jav, pseudonym, I have no idea who this person is. I think he's a person from Brazil. I've heard his accent. Sounds Brazilian.

He's got the Brazilian. sarcasm and he's, you know, a little bit abrasive. So he fits the pattern, but I have no clue who this person is. He created something brilliantly simple, and people recognize that and wanted to support, including myself. And you have developers now all over the world who are taking

not only what he built, but mixing it with what Satoshi built in the form of what William did with Domus, with Zeps, who I think is at that conference, I hope he's at that conference. Sorry to miss you, William and Vanessa, and Mr. E. But you know, you have people like Will who, you know, took these these two pseudonyms and believed in what they created and are creating something new. And I think it's a use case that the world hasn't really realized the true value of. But again, it's like the only, it's the biggest singular

experiment of micropayments on the internet. We've been talking about micropayments on the internet since people were talking about the internet since I was a kid in, you know, on my parents' computer in St. Louis, people were talking about micro payments and what if. And then we have folks like Theodore who created Zanadu, which was a system prior to the web and Tim Berners-Lee work,

hypertext, and all these systems were talking about what now exist within ZAPS and within Noster. And Fiat Jaffe, whoever this person is, chose to follow. and Satoshi's footsteps. Hopefully he'll stay around a little bit longer than Satoshi, but I understand why Satoshi left, and I would understand, you know, similar path for Fyachoff. And I hope there's more people like this.

Spiral, one of the, we created a very small team of developers within Block who are just there to make Bitcoin better, have made grants to, pseudonyms from people around the world. We have no idea where they live, who they are, but we know what they do. And they've proved their work and their worth. And we trust that. And I hope that continues to be a model in the future where we see more pseudonyms and more people that want to work to speak for itself independent of their ego.

that, you know, they choose that path and we can support them. How do you think the creation of something like Bitcoin through a pseudonym would be able to resist this massive resistance from the pre-existing establishment called Fiat? And, you know, in a famous words of somebody that you know, I mean, money is really a database that allows for the exchange of goods and services, right? And money has to have certain qualities. It's got to be durable. It's got to be recognizable. It's got to be divisible.

It's got to be portable. It's got to be scarce. Bitcoin just seems like the perfect antidote or answer to any preexisting monetary instrument. It allows for that optimal intersection between what travels over time and what travels over space. But the Fiat establishment just seems so doggedly sticky without any ability to show open-mindedness about this cool innovation. How do you think we're going to be able to overcome that resistance? Ignore it. Could you be more elaborate?

Okay, well, there's a big hand here. I mean we're building I mean like what Zaps is showing is like I think it's the first the first way to like you can

and I've I've had this experience I've had I have a friend from Israel and I have a friend from Bordeaux France and both of them had no idea what Bitcoin was

and they had no idea what Nostra was but they were curious and I signed both of them up, they're named Dor and Lulu. They're on, um, so you can search for them. They started making some posts and creating some notes and, um, I reposted them and re-noted them and they, um, you know, were exposed to the circle of people that follow me. They hooked up,

they, they both downloaded wallet of Satoshi. which is an incredible onboarding tool. I don't know how this company does it, but they built something truly simple and instant. And it was the first step, and they took that up to Damos, and they got non-KYC Bitcoin within an hour. And then they used that Bitcoin to zap other people,

the post that they liked, and suddenly you have this circular economy, and where did Fiat enter the equation? It's far in the past. So as they continue creating things, and people, one of them is a DJ and another, it's a surfer, real estate dude who lives in, well, hangs out in Bordeaux and lives in Bordeaux. But they create really great content, and, you know, they get paid for it through Zapps and Bitcoin. And they only know it to be this thing that on the side allows them to create and potentially make a little bit of money. But they use it to give that to other people on the network. But there's no reason why they couldn't use Wallace Satoshi. If they happen to be in Bali this week with you all or in Austria next week in Tokyo,

at a merchant that accepts Bitcoin, they've both earned over $100. It's a meaningful amount. And they can buy a drink, a coffee, a beer, a piece of clothing, and all that done with out accepting any fiat whatsoever. So do we have to pay attention to it? I don't think so.

Like, we need to create new use cases where we can ignore it more and more. And I think those are all in sight. right now and they're so tangible that you can you can actually use them and feel them today. But again, it goes back to how you open this. Like the future is already here. It's just not evenly distributed. We have a significant accessibility problem.

We have a significant design problem. We don't have enough designers who think cohesively end-to-end around an experience and how the experience feels from hearing about it to going to a website or download. lighting an app to receiving a payment, however that is, to using it in the, you know, we need people who are thinking cohesively end to end about that experience and how to make it feel great end to end without any, you know, jumping icons or bugs or it just feels super, super solid with that whole flow and that whole journey feeling as tangible and as real, as going to a bank, getting 50 bucks, and going to, you know, a store or a farmer's market and putting that down and getting a real app.

Like, it needs to feel that tangible and that cohesive and that, like, rock solid. And unfortunately, today, it doesn't because, you know, we have a lot of hackers like I was that are putting things up and putting things together and they work. But they don't really feel great together. And that's what is missing in Bitcoin. There's a lot of developers and designers focus on this problem now. But this kind of take a little bit of time before we really get there. And then we get more of the doors and the Lulus without, you know, someone like me who's loved this since 2009 to encourage them and kind of sit with them to get on it.

but to me it's just a matter of design and accessibility and we're like right on the precipice but we're not we're not unfortunately there yet I want to get back to accessibility in a bit but I want to push a little bit on fiat what what is your prediction in terms of what's going to happen to fiat in the near foreseeable future well I made a prediction some time ago around hyperinflation, I'm going to stick with that one. But I will say that anyone who makes predictions like this has no idea what they're talking about because no one knows

what's going to happen. And all we can do is repair for the future we want to live in and the future I want to live in doesn't really consider Fiat. So I don't know if it really matters. It seems to have you know,

we're living in this era of unnecessarily high time preference. right and and I have kids and I'm vested in wanting to make the world a little bit better for my kids so that we can live with a much better way of deferring gratification but in a world where the printing of money is just so pervasive it inflates economies around the world unnecessarily and I think it screws up morality and it's cruise up capital allocation. When do you think all these are going to end up? And when do you think we're going to see a true inflection point where there's really scale for Bitcoin for people in Africa, people in Indonesia? I mean, you know, I live in Indonesia.

It's the third largest democracy in the world, but it's still a developing economy with a GDP per capita of 4,000. $500, not exactly a high-income country. So we've got a long way to go and we're structurally impeded by insufficient money supply. What do you think? When do I think it turns? I don't like the last question, I don't know. I don't think anyone knows and anyone taking a guess is probably going to be wrong. And we can make a bunch of predictions following the but I think it's just better to build for the reality rather than wait for it. And like we have a bunch of people in the room and a bunch of people in Oster who are building that. And again, like I think we I think I do think the global South Africa, Indonesia,

Central, South America will lead in terms of the use case because the use case in in Western countries in the US where I'm from in Europe, maybe in India, is very much focused on the store of value use case, which is a viable use case. And, you know, one that focuses a lot of our attention on the number and the number go up. And, you know, certainly there's value to that because the more it's valued, you know, the more attention it has and the more people that care about, the more people developing for it, the more designers wanting to fix accessibility issues I was speaking to. But there are other use cases out there that are utilized every single day and really important to people. And remittance, I think, is the biggest one for the global South.

And I think it's extremely powerful. And you go to, you go to, you know, Nigeria and Ghana, Rwanda, Kenya, Costa Rica. There's an area in Costa Rica called DeVita, Dominical, which has a circular Bitcoin economy called Bitcoin Jungle. That's more of payments, I realize, but like there's a big remittance use case throughout the country and across borders, Nicaragua, Costa Rica. Mexico, US, Venezuela, Argentina, and certainly Nigeria, Ghana, Kenya, Rwanda, and more. So look at Nigeria.

During the N-SARs protest, the government went around and found all the protesters, asked the banks to shut down their bank accounts, shut down Western Union, during those protests and people turned on Bitcoin addresses and the world responded by sending Bitcoin to them and they were able to send that Bitcoin amongst themselves as well. So again, it goes back to the quote. The future is already here. It's just not evenly distributed and we have to look at these use cases and look at where they can be utilized more and spread them and make them more accessible and it's all a function of like

building and more people wanting to build for the system because it's, you know, because it's the right thing to do and helps the majority of people instead of building for things that, you know, only help a certain class of people, such as all of Web3 and a lot of, you know, Ethereum. I'm sure there's some really good projects within Ethereum as well, but not for the currency use case, not for the remittance use case, not for the remittance use case, not for the the store of values, because you could argue with that, of course. But like, um, like, I, I want my, I want my currency to be what Bitcoin is and has its attributes. And then it lasts. Um, so, I think more and more people will come around to that notion as they see the importance of it. And there's more conflict in the world emerging every single day that, uh, points towards the reasons why it's, it's, requires more attention and it requires more development. I'm in a camp that believes that

sub-Saharan countries, most developing countries in the world have great ideas. And what stops them from becoming a Jack Dorsey or all the great personalities in Silicon Valley is really access to capital or lack thereof, right? And to the extent that Bitcoin can serve as a true alternative to a pre-existing convention, then I think there's this structural technological impediment where there needs to be an improvement in a context of how the number of transactions over Bitcoin are involving.

Bitcoin can increase on a per second basis, on a per minute basis, you know, to the level that the Fiat has been able to be achieving so far, if not better. How do you see that technological impediment being overcome? Oh, well, that's just work. I think to your point of access to capital, it's right like you know there is a you know there's a significant concentration in places like Silicon Valley I had to move from St. Louis to New York to San Francisco I tried to start a company in New York was you know we tried to start square in New York after after Twitter and we couldn't afford to pay any engineers because the hedge funds were paying them $800,000 a year. And they didn't have, you know, the concept of equity and,

um, and, and, and what made, you know, San Francisco companies thrive, um, in, in that model. And again, there's arguments for and against those models, but it is what it is. We, we were able to move very, very quickly because of it. And, and because there were so many people thinking in the same way, you could have really interesting conversations, meet great engineers, meet great designers and build something super quick. Those communities are building in other places. Ghana is one such place. Nigeria and Lagos is another such place.

I've experienced it myself, especially within the Bitcoin room. And there are places in Costa Rica, in South America, in Central America, that, you know, see similar attention. but the capital is not necessarily there yet. But I do think it will follow and I do think it will follow from, you know, demonstrating more of the use cases, but I do think it also needs a jump start. This is one of the reasons why myself and Jay-Z created a fund called B-Trust, where we gave 500 Bitcoin, which for

There's a lot of money when we gave it at the time and it'll be a lot of money in the near future again. We gave this 500 Bitcoin to a board. This is a board of, you know, four people and they're hiring a CEO. They all are on the continent of Africa. One of them is a core, a Bitcoin core developer. Sorry, two of them actually. And one of them created FETI, Fettiment, which I hope that some of you are aware of. If not, you should explore it.

But, you know, really, really great people who are now tasked with granting that 500 Bitcoin into the global south to really support these use cases that are actually critical needs instead of like Bitcoin in the U.S. in a lot of Western countries is you could argue, and I would argue that is a lot out of desire. But the Bitcoin use case in the global South is out of need and necessity. And necessity, you know, creates amazing invention. And it does lack capital and support right now. But, you know, this is one way to jumpstart that.

And then, you know, as you make these grants to people, they will, you know, earn more and be able to grant themselves and help a broader ecosystem. And the most beautiful thing about the Bitcoin and I think also the Noster ecosystem, which I keep mentioning because I think they're so symbiotic and they help each other immensely, or will help each other immensely, is that if you create a company or you create a project for Bitcoin, everyone in the Bitcoin ecosystem benefits. And anything they do to benefit it, you get benefit from. Like it's the most amazing virtuous cycle I've experienced.

And of course, they're bad actors, and there are people looking to scam. And we've certainly had them in the Bitcoin space, and of course the broader crypto space. But, you know, the, the ecosystem. is resilient and it's going to look out for itself and it will self-correct and it will have the antibodies to you know destroy the things that try to harm it has a good immune system I should say and and we've seen that many times and we'll see it again and again and again but the fact that like I can create I can focus my company right now on doing everything I can imagine to help Bitcoin and everyone

who also works on Bitcoin or starts a Bitcoin company benefits from that and anything they do, we benefit as well. Like, it's just amazing. Just to give you a sense, Indonesia, which is not a small potato, it's, you know, the largest population in Southeast Asia, the fourth most populous country in the world, the third largest democracy in the world. we sit on money supply to GDP ratio of around 45%. The banking asset to GDP ratio, 45%, capital markets to GDP ratio 45%. And it's typical of the other Southeast Asian countries, with the absolute exception of Singapore.

And it's slightly better than most African countries, right, within the context of those ratios. I just kind of think that, you know, I'm a big believer of Bitcoin. It's just going to take time for those ratios to improve so that we have true access to capital for people with great ideas in the villages, in the remote areas of countries like Indonesia. So I think it's going to require patience in addition to technological innovation. I want to take you to the next topic of energy. There's always been this conversations about how we're going to be able to energize Bitcoin, right? And there's this narrative of sustainability that wants carbon neutrality by 2050, which is only 27 years away.

But what's so paradoxical is that that narrative, only resonates to about 15 to 20% of the population of the world, whereas the rest are just more worried about putting food on the table. They don't care whether it's coal or whatever. It's got to be affordable. So I'm throwing a bunch of things there, but how do you think Bitcoin is going to fit into that picture where we're going to have to try to reconcile the narrative of sustainability with the narrative of development? so that we can find a right technological solution from an energy creation standpoint in a most optimal way for developing countries. But the economics also needs to work. Well, first, I would start with like the only way we progress is by producing more energy.

Correct. So like we need to create as much energy as possible. And there are a multitude of ways to do so. And I'm a huge fan of nuclear energy. Same here. I think it was overlooked in, you know, more of the 60s days, and it's a nearly perfect form of energy. And it's becoming safer and safer.

You know, if you feared a lot of its faults in the past, a lot of those have been mitigated. It isn't, you know, as cost-effective as other forms. of energy to initially create, but once it's running, it's far more cost efficient and efficient in general. But I think the, you know, starting with the realization and the principle of only by producing as much energy as possible, where we progress to solve the majority of the needs for the world and really advanced humanity. And there's going to be transitions where we're, we progress, we'll we go from something that might be, you know, truly polluting.

You can actually see the clouds of pollution and the people that have to live by that to one that is not. And that we have a progression as quickly as possible. Bitcoin's role in that is to always drive towards efficiency. Just the mining model will drive it towards the most cost-effective solution. I spend a lot of time in Costa Rica. We have the benefit of having, you know, the majority of the country powered by hydroelectric, which is very cheap, free, you know, quote-unquote energy. And there are, you know, places like that within Kenya, all over Africa,

all over Central America, South America, even North America, that you can replicate this all over tech. recapturing unwanted energy or unused energy. So like water, Bitcoin finds a way to recapture the energy and to make it valuable. Even if you were to package, which people do, package a Bitcoin miner into, you know, in the form factor of a space heater or a water heater or a hot-tiefer tub water heater. All these things have been done. And, you know, it's just looking at more creative ways to use the energy and to use something like Bitcoin to incentivize more creativity.

So my company block is, you know, building a open source Bitcoin mining system. And one of our hopes is that it will be used by industry and also consumers to find new ways to utilize energy and utilize energy in a efficient means where it's potentially creating multiple use cases such as a space heater that pays for itself because of the energy it's using and the heat it naturally off puts but there's going to be many many more examples but I think we all the line and admit that we're only going to advance by creating more opportunities for energy. And that, you know, the best way to make sure that everyone maintains health is to find, you know, cleaner, more renewable sources of energy.

But there will be a transition phase. And we can't just forego the current models today because it would cut off energy for people that need it right now and it would therefore cut off an advancement generally. The transition, I think, could be very long, right? Just to give you a sense, Indonesia and India, which are classic developing economies, right? We're electrified to the extent of about 1,300 kilowatt hour per capita. And I think it takes modernity to reach the level of understanding with respect to sustainability.

And modernity can be defined in many ways, but one way of defining modernity is really a country is being electrified to the extent of about 5 to 6,000 kilowatt hour per capita. If we were to use that rule of thumb, at the rate India generates about 19,000 megawatts of power per year. Indonesia, 3,000 megawatts of power generation capabilities per year. it's going to take India and Indonesia about 100 years to reach 6,000 kilowatt hour per capita. And that's completely irreconcilable with the 27-year period until 2050, right?

So we're just going to have to wait longer. So there needs to be a way to accelerate the development of energy that's environmentally clean, that's scalable, but that's economically viable. and for India and Indonesia to reach viability, it needs to be at most five cents per kilowatt. And you can't charge nuclear, hydro, solar at any point less than 20 cents per kilowatt. So it's just mind-boggling for people like me in the developing economies. So it's going to take a while, I think, you know, for that reconciliation between the narrative of sustainability, in the narrative of development.

In the meantime, we can try to do our best to improve the use case scenario for Bitcoin mining and Bitcoin, you know, at the downstream level. But the big variable on the energy creation, I think it's going to take a long time to resolve. Yeah, no doubt. But it will be resolved. And there will be shortcuts and advancements that can move that faster. Jack, we've got seven more minutes.

I want to touch on your personal lifestyle. You walk to work every day and you walk home every day, about an hour to an hour and a half. You take the same route almost every day. Sometimes you deviate a little bit to the extent that you're listening to a different podcast that's going to take longer. Why do you do that? Well, that was when I was full-time in San Francisco. but you know that the consistent thing is um i i want to you know i try to find a routine that allows me to to think and walking is the best uh version of that if i was there

with you all i'd be walking on the beach every morning um whatever the longest stretch of beach i could find and i can go like i usually do about two hours a day but if you know the beach allows it or or the road allows it, I'll do four or five, whatever it takes, early in the morning or surf early in the morning at sunrise to just, you know, clear my head and think. And I'm a big fan of, you know, looking for serendipity and like what comes my way and believe that the most important things always come back to the surface again and again and again.

and you can't ignore them and walking is a good way to get those and surfing is a good way to get that serendipity in those in those moments so yeah I just take advantage of the nature around me I like being outside

and and just being walking walking or surfing presumably you've been to Bali right and you've been surfing here No, I haven't been to Bali I said

I can't wait to go and I want to There's so many waves I want to experience and I really Really really really really been looking forward to it I'm super Super sad that I didn't I didn't get to join you all

But I will be I will get out there Are you still eating once a day? Oh yeah Yeah So if I eat once a day could I become Jack Dorsey? I don't know if you want to.

I don't know if you want to be, but I like experimenting a lot. I experimented with my diet a lot, and I was vegan for two years, and it was the worst thing for me that I ever did. I'm sure it works for some people. It just did not work for me. And I experienced with fasting, intermittent fasting, and fasts of seven days, and experimented with meditation, all these things that just like,

testing on myself and experimenting and see what sticks and see what practice I continue with and and you know I need I need to experience it myself and eating once a day

like the first thing I experienced in the first month is like wow I have a superpower because like all these people have to like eat three times a day I only have to eat once a day and like it feels like I get all this time back and it just felt like really I know it feels it sounds kind of stupid but it felt amazing

and then I would like skip a day and that felt even more amazing and I learned a bunch you know about autophagy and longevity and all these things so you know it's just like

practicing these extremes to figure out like what it teaches you ultimately like everything is a teacher and it's just, you know, how do you learn from it? Are you open to learning from it? And then how do you learn from it? What about meditation? What has it done to you?

Everything. I mean, like, I took a, my friend introduced me to Vimpasna. And again, like this, well, all you in Bali probably doesn't sound that woo-woo because you're in Bali, but when you explain this to, you know, normal. people it sounds a little bit like you know hippie and uh out there especially for someone um in corporate america such as i was i think there was like a episode of black mirror made about me meditating um and it's funny ha ha but like it's it's actually a meaningful practice so a guy introduced me and i've been like trying to meditate for like you know over a decade and

I was doing like five minutes or 30 minutes and like wasn't really serious about it. And then I asked him, he'd been meditating for a while. I asked him like, what should I do? He's like, well, if you really want to go extreme, do this practice called Impostanauts, 10 days. They take your phone. You can't read. You can't write. You can't exercise.

You can't look anyone in the eye. You can't speak with anyone. There's no music. There's no stimulation at all. you wake up at 4, you start meditating at 4.30, you have breakfast, lunch, no dinner, and you stop at 9.30 and you go to bed at 9.30. And you do that for 10 days. And you sit on the floor, cross-legged, ideally just on the floor with like a tiny little mat for two hours at a time, every single thing about your body hurts. And all you're doing is just scanning

your body for sensations of pain or pleasure, and you are training yourself to observe those, and then not react to it. You could get up and the pain would go away. You'd have no pain in your knees, no pain in your back. It disappear. And the whole teaching is this feeling of pain is impermanent. You're reacting to something that's impermanent in this moment.

You could get up right now, it'd go away. so why do we suffer so much for something that's impermanent and that's the metaphor for life life is impermanent why suffer because it goes away why not um take joy in it and uh it's a very very very difficult practice and you know on day seven you're looking around and everyone looks like a buddha to you in the room and you're like struggling and then you like get it then you feel it and then the next morning it all falls apart and you're crying again. It's just again, it's a teacher. Everything is a teacher.

So put yourself in some uncomfortable situations like meditation or not eating, not for too long, drink water, or doing something you've never done before. Like, you know, those of you in the room haven't surf yet first time in Bali, go surf. There's a very nice, very nice long board wave right outside where they come. reference center is, I believe. And just go do it. See what it feels like. I'm with you, man. I've done that too.

So the last question, you've alluded to revolution being better than disruption. Talk about that. Well, the context for that is like, you know, my my cohort of technology companies, Google, Facebook, mainly Facebook was all around like moving fast and breaking things and disruption and you have to be a disruptor

and you look at that word and like you realize what it is and like disruption is like destructive chaos and the thing that always got me about using that word is like it had no purpose whatsoever it was just like random chaos to be disruptive

and I know I'm being overly literal here but you look at that versus like revolution which has deep purpose and a reason why and a feeling of movement and that's what the internet was after it was developed by the military thank you very much and the people took it and made it their own it had this movement quality to it this revolution quality we're at purpose the purpose was to free information, to free cryptography, to free mathematics, to free knowledge, to make it universally accessible to everyone, no matter who they were or where they lived or where they came from, how they grew up. And that was a, that wasn't disruption, that was revolution. And Bitcoin, to me, is not disruption.

It's that paper is a revolution. there's a manifesto and it has purpose and that purpose was you know inscribed in 2009 with the first block the genesis block and the headline of um you know the chancellor and bailing out the banks the second time so you know i i was just very much against this term that my my industry and my my world was using, which was like disruption and there was a tech crunch disrupt, it was a conference and the whole thing was just like insane. Versus like, I don't we be striving for like movements and revolutions and like can that actually come from a corporate thing? And I don't think it can ultimately, which is why you find this work in open protocols such as Bitcoin, such as Noster, um, tour. And, Like, and you have these incredible advocates who are so fortunate to have, such as Edward Snowden,

who if you haven't seen his speech at Bitcoin, Amsterdam, please take 30 minutes of your life. He's an incredible follow on Nostra, a huge believer. We're going to be interviewing him at the conference, Nostasia, in November 1st, through the third it'll be broadcast so you got great people here and they want to build and they want to be part of a movement and want to create a revolution

and you know that that's what we need right now not just random chaos we need purpose Jack you've you've done great things you've done things on the basis of intuition timelessness and value for that we admire you

and thank you for attending and gracing this event. Thank you. I only wish you were here, man, physically. We only wish you were here physically. We got a surfboard here ready for you. No, but please, I know you're in the conference room, and I know you're listening to all these talks,

and I heard the last one, and it's amazing. But the best part of these conferences is actually getting out to the community and meeting the real people. and leaving a mark in some way. And the mark you all can leave is get someone signed up for Bitcoin and teach them why it's important and teach them why it can help them and why it keeps their government in check

and any authority in check. So please just pull someone aside that lives there and is native and whether it be a surfer that you see in the lineup or on the street and just, you know, show them what, show them, show them why you're at this conference. That, again, it's like back to the original quote. Future's already here. It's just not evenly distributed.

It's us up to us to distribute it. William Gibson. Thank you. Thank you so much, Jack. Take care. Yeah. Thanks. Thank you so much, ladies and gentlemen.

That was Jack Dorsey. This is end game.