Endgame with Gita Wirjawan - Janet DeNeefe: Bali, Literature, and Cultural Diplomacy

Episode Date: January 27, 2021

The world needs to understand Indonesia in the way that Indonesia has always deserved to be understood. For far too long, the story of Indonesia has been written with a foreign pen. Janet DeNeefe, the Ubud Writers and Readers Festival founder, is seeking to change that by harnessing Indonesian youth's immense power. Through food, literature, and other creative means, she believes that now is the time for Indonesia to finally author its own story and enchant the world.

The world needs to understand Indonesia the way it deserves to be. Yes. Right. Well, and that's my thing too. I think I just see myself as an ambassador to unravel Indonesia and just show them how fantastic it is. I can't think of any, not that I travel that much, but I can't think of any other place that is so incredibly creative.

And, you know, as I said, with so many young people and this incredible energy, and I'm just constantly blown away by it. And yeah, I feel it's my job to let everybody know that. This is N-GIN. TEMAN, TEMAN, TAMAN, Founder of UBUD Riders-Readers' Festival,

that's been around around 14-year-old. Good morning, Janet. How are you? Good morning. I'm well, despite everything that's going on. I know, things have been very different in the year 2000.

I want to start off with how you grew up in Australia and how you first interacted with Indonesia and how you managed to just keep staying here. Please tell us the story before we talk about the more substantive stuff. Okay, so I grew up in suburban Melbourne. My dad was a businessman and his father was an artist. we were always, yeah, surrounded by art and my dad and his brothers ran the family business that was started by my grandfather, who was quite eccentric. So I sort of grew up with this interesting life where we were sort of taught, and it became my mantra that you should only ever be your own boss, actually.

But anyway, so when my dad and the brothers sold the family business in the 70s, My dad had a bit of money in his pocket and decided to take us on a family holiday. And he didn't want to do the regular thing or the European holiday that everybody does. He was a bit of an adventurer. So he decided to bring us to Asia and starting in Bali, which in the 70s, we heard about that. My sister and I were pretty enchanted with Bali because it was made famous in the surf film Morning of the Earth. So we saw, you know, this image of this tropical paradise and thought, wow, cool. So, yeah, I think my mum thought we must be going to somewhere like Hawaii.

So I think she thought, you know, like fancy cocktails and high heels and summer dresses. But anyway, so we landed in Ubud in just after Christmas, 74 into 75. So, yeah, so we were blown away by the experience. I mean, for me, it was life-changing. And so we came to Ubud. then I went to Kuta, then Jogja and Singapore. So it was like, wow, this Asian world is intriguing. And, yeah, so he sort of started my adventure into Bali.

As I said, it was life-changing. So when I came back and finished my schooling, my whole thing was, how am I going to get back to Bali? I even looked into, you know, somehow doing my final year in Bali as well or whatever. but in the end in my art folio in my final year, I did batik painting. So my whole folio was huge, big batik. So yeah, so I didn't come back to, I suppose it was nine years later because then I, you know, I started teaching.

I studied art and crafts. So art was always a big part of my life, as was literature. So, yeah, I didn't come back until 84. And I met my husband the second day. So yeah, a lot of people say, oh my God, that's the best barley bargain, you know, they've ever heard of. So, you know, that was another life-changing moment. So after that, I, you know, decided to spend more time here. But I was also, apart from everything about barley back then, I was really enamored with the food

because it was the most extraordinary food and flavors I had ever tasted, of course, coming from suburban Melbourne, you know. As I always say, frogs' legs and even, you know, you know, Gatoh Gatau Pinat sauce was intriguing, sate was intriguing, samba, all these flavors were just like, wow, explosions in my mouth 24-7. So that's when I decided to learn about the cooking. And in Melbourne back then, there were Indonesian cookbooks, but nothing really looked like authentically Bahraini's. So that's when I thought, oh, obviously that's something I have to do myself. So that was the start of my culinary journey with barley.

Now, you have a few restaurants in Bali more so in Ubutt than other parts of Bali. Yes. Do you have any presents in Australia, your hometown or anywhere in Australia? No, I looked into it. I mean, I'm such a home bod that I like to, everything I do, I like to do in a short radius around, you know, my home, from my home. And I sort of toyed with the idea of setting up a restaurant in Melbourne a couple of years ago, when I felt that it was time to really explode on the scene and present Indonesian food like nobody's ever tried before

in a really cool way. And I was even trying to get sponsors to try and do some sort of art collaboration to have musicians and artists and Indonesian poets and just sort of explode, you know, with Indonesia. But, yeah, I tend to think big in case you haven't noticed. Yeah, which is good. Yeah, so I was talking to Tony Wheeler from Lonely Plano, all sorts of people trying to just cook up this idea. But, well, it's the real estate and the rent in Melbourne is prohibitive.

And, you know, people said to me, oh, it's really hard to get loyal staff. I said, I didn't say I was going to employ Australians. I was going to be, you know, talking to Indonesians. I was going to have Indonesian staff and I was going to try and link up with the hospitality schools here or in Bandung, for example, and try and create an exchange thing. So it was going to be like a platform for educating Indonesians, you know, on the other side, you know, in Australia and going back and just this wonderful exchange. Yeah, but I just got chewed up by real estate and rental costs.

And I don't know, it became complicated. And I guess in hindsight, maybe it's better now with COVID, you know, but that was a dream I had, but I didn't get as far as I wanted to. Well, we're, you know, our family, you know, we're regulars to... Yeah, I'm so amazed. Casaluna. You know, next time tell me. Sure, sure, sure.

But let's, let's, you know, talk about how you got started with these Ubutt writers, readers, festival. I mean, it's a pretty amazing platform that, you know, seems to be able to project Indonesia onto the international, you know, community in such a positive manner. Yeah, I suppose because I've always seen myself as the go-between. You know, I'm sort of the narrator between two cultures, so I feel that's something I can help Indonesia with. But of course, with the Writers' Festival, you know, in 2002 we had the Bali bombings,

which was a really devastating time for Bali. And of course, we're going through something. Yeah, sadly, similar right now. And I guess I just felt, okay, Bali's been. so good to me. Now it's my turn to help and I thought and I can help because as I said I'm the I'm the go between I have one foot in the west one in the east so I decided okay we've got to find a way to boost the economy but it's got to be in a really meaningful way and actually at that time I was finishing my own book fragrant rice my sort of cooking memoir you know and so I was already connecting

with literary circles, with festival directors and publishers, etc. And so with another friend, we were talking already before the bombings about having like poetry readings and kind of cultural events at Casaluna. So when the bombings happened, I started, you know, okay, think, think, what can we do? We've got to bring people back to Bali. It's got to be something that has international names. It's got to be something that's meaningful right now. And that's when I thought, oh, a writer's festival.

Because, you know, they're huge in Australia. But I thought, you know, what it's going to provide Indonesia with is a chance to discuss, discuss issues, you know, meaningful issues. And also we're going to throw in a bunch of non-Indonesians and start talking about things in a cross-cultural way. And so I thought it can only be a good thing. And I kept thinking, you know, the pen is mighty than the sword. And so we have to recover from this, you know, negative event.

And so we're going to re-flower Ubud and Bali through the positive power of literature and the arts, actually. So I thought, I think it's going to work on all levels. Now, you know, we live in an age where more and more people are spending more and more time on their handphones, right? Yes. And a lot of the stuff that we read off are mobile phones. It's not so great, right?

And I've been actually going around places to promote reading, reading books, and probably not in such a big way as you would have tried to do in the last 17 years. Have you seen progress or correlation, rather, between what you have done by the way of the festival, with respect to, you know, more and more people actually reading good literary products? Yeah, I believe there are more people reading just by the growth in the Indonesian audience. You know, at the start, we were accused of being an Australian festival in Indonesia. And I thought, yeah, yeah, just give me time, okay. I can make a difference, but it's going to be slow, you know, you can't do things overnight.

So I've been so excited to see. the growth in the Indonesian audience, the young audience. I mean, it's mind-blowing just to see the enthusiasm from the young people, young people, and that's what makes me really excited. And also, while the festival's going on, what people don't realize is there's a whole host of workshops. This is the normal on the ground festival. And there's a lot of Indonesians in the workshops who really want to learn the craft

of writing. So that, again, has been hugely popular and exciting. And also just to see the development and the growth of young writers in general. And again, I'm really happy that we provide a platform for them. And also, I don't know if people are aware of during or after the festival, we do the satellite program. So we actually, the festival takes off a small group of us to maybe six remote cities around Indonesia to connect with literary circles.

Because we, you know, we understand not everybody can, you know, fly to Bali, but so then we have to go to them. So that's fantastic. But the other thing I'm particularly fond of that I'm really trying to forge ahead with this next year, 2021, is the emerging writers program. So we already have, we have that in place where every year we put out a call for young writers unpublished to send in their work and then we curate the work and then we actually publish it and we translate it also. I want to take a step forward next year in working more closely with the emerging writers and actually getting them mentored by other writers so that they start working together

and then by the following year present a whole new piece and really try and focus on how we can create better opportunities for them and also upgrade their writing skills because I'm constantly amazed. I mean Indonesia has so many young people right. I mean Australia they're all old like me, but Indonesia, they're all young and they're groovy and they're energetic. So for me, this is where we really need to put a lot of attention into. What are some of the areas that you would like to focus on in ushering a better generation of writers? Well, yeah, I mean... I mean, we can talk about topics or we can talk about some of the maybe early learning skills that would be

be necessary, if not a precondition, for somebody to become a great literary, you know, innovator or writer. Yeah. I mean, I definitely want to focus on climate change next year as well. So that's sort of a side stream about looking at the environment, looking how they're impacted by that. But I think when you're talking about writing, it's just about how to create better literature. You know, like in the West, everybody has the privilege of having an editor. I remember that too when I wrote my fragrant rice. So they sort of pick it to pieces and, you know, while we just write, they come in and say, well, look, I think you should develop that character a little bit more.

You know, tell us not just what they ate, but how that felt when they ate it and all those sorts of things. So I think young Indonesians should have that experience where someone says, yeah, that's great, but why don't you just develop the story? or develop the character or tell us how you really felt. You can see that with literature from the West, especially all the amazing young writers. You can see that they really think about all these aspects to writing and probably because they've studied literature

or they've got a mentor, something like that. I want to see young Indonesians with the same privilege that writers in the West have. How much longer do you think it'll take for us to have that necessary? editorial capability so that whatever comes out of the gate is worth reading internationally. Yeah, I mean, everything that's worthwhile takes time. So, look, I mean, it might take 10 years. I don't know.

I mean, we're starting a conversation with, I don't know if you know, intersacro. We're going to start looking at, yeah, how we do really top-level translation, editing that goes with it. already have a gorgeous team that help us every year. But, you know, what are the next steps, you know, the editing process? I mean, look, at the end of the day, it all comes down to funding. And this, of course, is our biggest struggle. So if you want the best, you have to pay for it. And you have to honor people for their skills. So it's something that people need to invest in,

basically, for the best results. Because I know there's a lot of great writers out there, you know, and they just need a bit of effort. Yeah, they need guidance. They need, yeah, they need opportunities. And your platform certainly provides both of them to some extent or to a great extent. As far as we can, yeah. Let's talk about climate change, right? I've been saying this over and over in many conversations.

It's just not enough in the necessary conversations for particularly the younger generation. What is your view in terms of what can be done to change that for the better. Well, that was, that's part of my program for this next year, focusing on climate change, finding young writers who can write about that. But again, maybe mentoring them, getting them to work alongside others. You see, we were trying to, we were planning to try and get this grant for the British Council, but we didn't have time to finish the proposal. So I thought, or why don't we just try and do this anyway? And even find those young people that have been impacted by, like,

of water or some sort of environmental issue, etc., and just get people writing about it. I think that's the first stage, you know, or find the people, then getting them to write about it, and then, yeah, maybe getting them mentored or just starting the process, getting the wheels in motion, and then, you know, which takes time, but I think it's really important. And I know that after COVID,

everybody will be focusing more than ever on climate change, and it's really important. Yeah. Let's segue a little bit to COVID-19 before we go back to the climate change topic. How has Bali weathered, you know, this unprecedented episode of COVID-19? And how do you think Bali will be able to come out of this,

thriving, not just surviving. Yeah, of course, it's an extremely difficult time. I mean, for all of us, it's been about how do we keep our staff employed, you know, for us personally. We've kept Kassaluna open the whole time, actually, after that first month or two when we all sort of shut down. But since about May onwards, we've all, yeah, we've been open, should I say. So, yeah, difficult times.

It's hard to tell right now. I guess everybody's just cruising along to their best ability. I mean, there's been some fantastic stories about young people going back to the land. You know, we did a whole little series, actually, for the Writers' Festival online about, you know, how resilient young Baranese can be. And also, I find it really interesting now

when you walk through villages, the site or in front of their house, they're all planting saior, you know, vegetables and things like that. So more than ever, people are growing vegetables again. Because again, you know, agriculture and all of that, you know, that's part of who barley is or what barley is. So I don't know. I think right now everybody's surviving as best they can.

I've also been supporting an initiative in Demposa, just trying to see who doesn't have enough food and how we can all help them. So everybody's all in help most. as well. And right now also there's a little bit more tourism. So I think suddenly people are feeling really optimistic. And Balinese are eternally optimistic. So, you know, I think they know, okay, we just have to be patient, do the best we can.

Everybody's there to help. And after that, hopefully they'll blossom into something better than ever before. But of course, we also all hope that can we revisit tourism and can we shape it or set it into a slightly different direction that's a bit more echo friendly or, yeah, we're just sort of talking about what if we could change the plan a little bit. So yeah. Right, right. I, you know, of course, people in Bali, they're known to be optimistic and resilient, right? And I'm just hopeful that, you know, we all can get vaccinated sooner rather than later. Yeah. And that, I think, will bring about normalcy in the context of just about

everything. Yeah, I agree, absolutely. Whether we like it or not, it's the way forward. Yeah. Look, I mean, there isn't a lot of travel bubbles, right, involving Indonesia or Bali or any other parts of Indonesia. But I do believe a lot of that is correlated with the degree to which we can vaccinate ourselves, right? Faster or better or more effectively. Yeah. And I think the first quarter of 2021 will be pretty telling what's to come. Yeah, I believe so. That will mean good for Indonesia and for Bali. Yes. I want to push this a little bit. You know, we got in 2019 around 14 to 15 million international tourists, right?

About 6 million of those actually visited Bali, right? And you're aware of this massive infrastructure development plan that's been undertaken by the government, right? So with the hopes of, you know, creating or promoting better connectivity, right, would you be optimistic about a future where Bali actually gets visited by a lot more than 6 million international tourists? I have to ask this question because, you know, before we segue way back to the climate change topic. Yeah. No. I think, well, as we all say, it's all about infrastructure. structure and we all suffer in Ubud in peak season.

I mean, we don't even go out anymore because, you know, that thing where you'd go to Jakarta and say, oh, it's great, but the traffic's horrendous and then suddenly in Ubud, in July, August, you suddenly think, damn, we're the same. So I don't think volume is the key. I think it's the quality of the tourists, not the quantity. And I think we all feel that way. And I don't know if that's going to ever change.

Yeah, because we can't handle as it is that many tourists. So, you know, there needs to be a lot of thought given to that. And people in the right positions or people with integrity that really genuinely care for Bali in terms of the people. And, you know, what's happening on the ground, not just in terms of economic growth or whatever. There must be other ways to make it. Let me throw some numbers at you, right?

If we were to grow the number of international tourist arrivals from 15 million to, let's say, 150 million on a yearly basis in the next, I don't know, maybe 10 to 15 years from today. To Bali? No, to Indonesia. No, to Indonesia. Right, from 15 million to 150 million. That's a tenfold increase, right, in the next, I don't know, 10 to 15 years. A good chunk of that is going to want to go to Bali. It's a point of inevitability, right?

Will it be manageable from the perspectives of many things? From the environment, from the cleanliness, from just the simple operability. Ah, look, I'm not an expert on those levels, but I don't see how it can work. It's just like it's not that big an island, really. I mean, do we really want that? Look, I mean, Indonesia's big a thing. We've got to talk about it because, you know, you're thick in the hospitality space, right? And you're going to be exposed to this possibility by way of just a sheer amount of money that's being poured into infrastructure development.

Yeah, because the thing is it's all very well to talk about the economic side of tourism. But I think in a place, well, Indonesia generally, so culturally, rich. You know, what happens when a culture starts to break down? I mean, I'm really concerned about, you know, cultural heritage and all those wonderful things that make Indonesia so special. And in Bali, you know, the arts and the music and the dance, can all of that survive with this non-Indonesian influx that may have different priorities? So I guess I tend to look at it on different levels, but it would have to be really well-managed or well thought out. But yeah, I mean, look, in Indonesia, of course, you can direct traffic to different

parts of Indonesia, but as you say, I guess they'll all want to come back into Bali at some point. It's inevitable, you know, people, you know, the brand, the brand equity is just so high that people would not want to escape or avoid Bali. But I'm with you. with you in the sense that I think there's got to be a conscious effort of redistributing tourism to other parts of Indonesia. And I know you're a big fan of Bandanera, right?

Which is a place I've never visited. Oh my God, you have to go. I mean, look, I mean, it is purely selfish. I wouldn't even like to see a ton of tourists there either, to be honest. Yeah. You know, because I can see just some tiny changes since I first started going there. And I thought, damn, you know, somebody really needs to be running this. place, you know, in a really effective way and, you know, sensitively. So, you know, there's so many

pockets around Indonesia that could be developed. I mean, I find it really annoying when they talk about 10 other Barli's. Like, can you just drop the Barley bit? Because Barley is Barley and nowhere in Indonesia will ever replicate Bali. It's not possible. But think of what is unique to each of those islands. And that becomes your selling point. And of course, Bandanera, the history. I mean, it's gobsmacking, you know, and the fact that it's still there. So when you go there,

you feel like you're walking back into centuries ago. You know, there's still like cannons on the side of the road and just this colonial impact, which, while it's a negative thing in a way, one thing the colonizers did was they built strong buildings. So you've got all these massive,

sturdy buildings on this super quaint, picturesque little island And it's really sleepy, actually, given their tragic history. Right. And just an amazing place. So, yeah, there's many amazing places in Indonesia, and they should just market them for what they have. So I think there might be a way to manage, right,

the arrivals of 150 million international tourists someday in the future. I mean, if we take a look at, you know, money matters, right? but the environment also matters, right? And if we take a look at the contribution of, you know, international tourism to Indonesia's GDP, it's still below 2% of the GDP or of the economy, whereas, you know, other countries in Southeast Asia, you know, international tourism makes up between 15 to 20%,

particularly Thailand, right? Thailand has just been successful, relatively speaking, in attracting, what, 40 million tourists, internationally in 2019. Yeah. I don't know. They just seem to be more strict on issues in Thailand. I don't know.

Maybe there's... Yeah. I don't know about that. But I think isn't now Thailand sort of re-looking at tourism since COVID and enjoying the quietness and of their beaches and things? I mean, aren't they now kind of revisiting all of that and just thinking about how they want to move forward, you know, with tourism? I don't know.

It's in, yeah, it's the pollution part that's negative. Yeah, it's scary. But, you know, there are efforts that are being made to make, you know, the world environmentally more safe and sustainable, right? So let's stay optimistic on that. So coming back to this point of climate change and coming back to the point of literary production, right? What is it that you want the next Pramudia Anantatur to write about

so that we can understand a little bit better about where the climate change, you know, is heading and how we can actually preserve the planet a little bit better? I guess, you know, the strength of any writer is they're masters at stories. So I guess for me, I would love to see stories being told. And I actually think it's often more digestible than something that a scientist or something might, you know, present. So I suppose, yeah, just the stories that can be told about the climate, about the changes that are happening, about real people. I feel like Indonesians are really moved by real stories and real people. I often think about the film Lasca de Palani

and such a huge success because it was about real people. I think a lot of people identified with that. So I guess the stories have to be meaningful and the meaningful stories are again about what's happening in the villages. I mean, everybody feels close to that. I think even in Jakarta where you're living in the city, people still resonate with stories from small communities or remote communities or just the village people, you know,

but real stories. authentic stories. So I guess to me the power of storytelling can really move and shift the way people think. You're a big fan of Ekakurniawan. And name some other Indonesian talents that you think will or deserve to be on the international stage. And hopefully winning an international recognition in literature, like a like a, like a, Nobel or anything. Well, I think we're still growing those. I mean, there's your older, highly respected writers like Leila Kudori and Luxby Pambunchat

and Deelis Diliust Dari. I'm a huge fan of hers. But there's also Norman Pasaribu. He's really interesting. And there's a few others coming up. from Eastern Indonesia as well. I'm trying to think of names of the top of my head. Yeah, but I guess too,

I've just been watching all these emerging young writers, but I can't think of all the other names at the moment, but yeah, there's a lot of exciting writers out there and a lot of interesting stuff being done. So that's the thing. I just want to sort of focus on that next year and start channeling and finding them and just seeing how we can move forward

with these stories and the climate change, things like that. Do they have what it takes to win internationally? Yeah? Yeah, I mean, absolutely. Or maybe from a popular standpoint, like, are they capable of producing a Harry Potter type of literary product that's read by, I don't know, more than a billion people? well that was what was so funny about harry potter like when the first book came out i think it was my husband said what's all the fuss about this book and i said well it's yeah i said well it's it's

it's about this uh guy or kid and he's got a magic ring and my husband looking at the rings on his finger said yeah so and i said well there's kind of like these um you know there's the good guys and the bad guys and, you know, like the wizards and, you know, they go flying around. And he said, yeah, yeah, like, yeah, we have that too. You know, so he's like, what's all the fuss about? I said, well, I guess because it did a story that everybody can read. So I tell you, you have all those stories in Indonesia. I think maybe sometimes people feel a bit shy to write about those kind of things.

But of course, that's what the Western world laughs to hear. Yeah. So, I mean, in Bali, they're living, you know, everybody virtually. What, what, I'm just curious here. Does it matter if you actually can write in English or it's, it's not a precondition to be internationally successful? Well, I know that's an argument. And I know there's the dilemma of, you don't have to write in English, but I know there's the dilemma of translating. Right.

And some people say, you just cannot translate. into English. But I suppose for me, I mean, I would be devastated if I could never have read Gabriel Garcia-Marquez, you know, and the fact that when they translated his work,

it changed the face of, you know, South American literature, Latino literature, etc. So I would just feel, you know, be devastated if I could never have read that. And for me, as an Australian, when I go into books, bookshops in Australia,

I just always feel really sad. I mean, now I see Ekakunia one, but I just never see Indonesian authors, and I don't want them to miss out. I just feel like so many other countries have translated work, but Indonesia has very little. And I think, I don't want you guys to be left behind. You know, it doesn't feel right in a way.

So, you know, I always feel that's my job. I have to help and see if we can't promote their work. work and get it translated. So it just means you have to, you know, have a good relationship with your translator and really find the best words possible. It will never be as good as the original work, but you can still do a fantastic translation. And I know with some of the sponsors in the early days, they'd say to me in Indonesia, well, you know, maybe we don't need an international festival, you know, I think it's okay. We just have Indonesians with Indonesians. But I guess for me as a Westerner and Australian is like, no, you shouldn't be holding yourselves back.

I want to see you on a global platform. You can talk to each other any time of the day, but I want to see a platform with you and people from all over the world or the writers, should I say, discussing issues. And for me, that's just what makes things flourish and become even more exciting. You know, when you get artists or musicians and writers from other parts of the world and you throw them into a room together. You just produce greater work. Absolutely.

And just wonderful exchange and all those opportunities. So I guess my thing is, I don't want to see Indonesians left behind. I want to see them out there and having the same opportunities. Yeah, why not? Why should they have to stay in the background? The world needs to understand Indonesia the way it deserves to be. Yes. Right.

Well, and that's my thing too. I think I just see my. myself as an ambassador to unravel Indonesia and just show them how fantastic it is. I can't think of any, not that I travel that much, but I can't think of any other place that is so incredibly creative. And, you know, as I said, with so many young people and this incredible energy and I'm just constantly blown away by it. And yeah, I feel it's my job to let everybody know that.

Right. I mean, if you write stuff in Spanish, you're likely to get an audience of a few 200 million people, or potentially more than a billion people, right, on a planet. Absolutely. But if you write something in Bahasa, you're not going to get any more than probably 300 million in a number of countries in Southeast Asia. So there is that seeming need, right, to project this internationally. You can effectively do it either by way of a proper translation capability, or you just write it

in an international language, call it English or Mandarin or whatever. That's read by a wide range of people. Yeah. So, well, I suppose there are more Indonesians now writing in English. Yeah, but I feel that in a way they should be able to write in Indonesian and just have someone translated. I'm okay with that, yeah. As long as you can translate it effectively. Yes, right? Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah. And that's where, you know, like, you work closely with the translator, and they say, so what do you mean by that? And you can arrive at something that's as close as possible. So it's about the relationship with the translator. And you see that with translated authors. They always, you know, praise their translator, and they tend to work with them throughout all their course of literature or through all their books, etc. So they develop a really close understanding. I see this as being related to some of the stuff that I've been saying,

you know, in separate instances where, you know, we've got a fantastic narrative, but we just need to have a fantastic narrator or a set of narrators. And I do believe that what you're doing by way of the festival on an annual basis is really an effort to... produce the next best narrator, right, for Indonesia. Do you have a view on that or do you disagree with? No, no, no, no. That's exactly it. I want to see as many fantastic narrators as possible and I know it's possible.

So, and that's the, you know, in this year of COVID, it's helped me really think about, okay, now, you know, why are we doing this again? you know, let's get back to how we really want to focus on Indonesian authors and young people. So it's made it actually clearer for me to think of the next steps to move forward. Because I think, you know, this year, COVID to me means creativity. And we have to harness that in many ways. So through literature, of course, is one thing I plan to be full steam ahead on. I see COVID as relatively a blessing for people to, you know, work a little more efficiently and pollute less and get actually educated a little bit better, right?

Yeah. I'm definitely spending more time looking at stuff on YouTube to learn, pick up on anything new, right? And I read, you know, as much, if not more. than I used to, you know, in the old days. Yeah, that's the thing. I mean, you can never stop learning, and I think that's the wonderful thing about life. You know, there's so much to learn and on many different levels, isn't there?

So, yeah, I'm trying to read more and just to, I guess, too, I mean, for us with the festival, the other thing was we had to learn how to do the festival online. So we were also thrown into this, you know, Zoom world, you know, and learning new technology, which has been fantastic too. as much as we were all a bit hesitant at the start or a bit nervous, it's been great to come out with these new skills that are all kind of home taught. So, yeah, it's been an interesting year. We cannot doubt that one.

Let's talk about the future of Indonesia. Where do you see Indonesia heading into in the next, I don't know, 10 to 25 years? You're right, yes. Well, I think it seems like it's growing. I mean, with the right governance, of course. Indonesia is a force to be reckoned with. I mean, there's no doubt about the talent of the people in Indonesia, especially if you look at it.

If you look at the other countries around us, Indonesians are highly creative. So I think it's just a matter of investing in education, investing in young people, getting them, yeah, getting them or upgrading their skills. And I guess just, yeah, looking at the economic benefits to be made in terms of business and what it is that Indonesia has that others in this region don't have. And I guess, you know, we're talking about tourism too, how to really move forward in the best possible way. So I guess it comes back to the governance and just, you know, focusing on the things that can help Indonesia move forward because you have everything here.

It's incredible. If I tell you by the year 2045, there would have been five Nobel prices in literature won by an Indonesian or by Indonesians. Does that sound crazy? Yeah, maybe. Well, because, I mean, it's all right to be aspirational, right? Yeah, true, true. Yeah, that's good. Look, I mean, they didn't even give Pramudia the Nobel Prize.

I mean, that's a tragedy. Let's talk about that. I'm just, I can't ever, I will never believe that, you know, just so, I don't know, I'm just not sure about the Nobel Prize anymore. They still could posthumously, right? Well, that's true. Well, they should. It's really outrageous. I'm not happy about that. There's no rule against doing it posthumously.

That is true. Well. The last time I checked, I could be wrong. Uh-huh. But I think your friend, the Indian guy on the other program, he was talking about the Nobel Prize too, and the fact that, you know, they need to look at those. He's actually Singaporean. Singapore. Okay. He's ethnically Indian, yeah.

And yeah, yeah, so just, yeah, how to move forward with the Nobel Prize. I think we need to look at who's on the judging team. Well, he looks at it from a different angle. He doesn't see the relevance of the Nobel Committee, right? Which is not connecting with, you know, some parts of the world. But let's assume that that gets corrected, right? Ah, okay. I mean, if I tell you that by the year 2045, Indonesia would have won five Nobel prices in literature.

And a chunk of that would have been on the back of the exposure they would have gotten through your festival or some other international festivals. Is that a pretty credible story? Yeah, okay. Let's work towards it. Yeah, why not? I just want to plan something in your head, right? so that when you do your next event, this is sort of like the endgame that I want to go after. Yeah, true, true. No, you're right.

And people have said that to me before. When will an Indonesian win the Nobel Prize for literature? So, yeah. Okay, I guess I've just been a bit disturbed by it because of Pramudia. But if we're going to correct all those other things, then yeah, of course. Of course it's possible. Yeah. Something to work forward to.

Yeah. Okay, how many quality writers are there that are visible to you? In Indonesia. One hand, two hands, multiple hands to count with? Well, I suppose there's, let me think, because the thing with the Indonesian writers is there's probably more that are working with short story and poetry, etc. etc. So in terms of novels, you know, there's there's not as many that I'm, you know, like in Australia, for example, everybody writes novels, whereas in Indonesia there's,

you know, the poets and the short story, etc. So I guess it's about, I can think of, you know, at our top level, but I know that there's the next level that we can develop. But at this stage, a lot of the others are more short stories. So whether it, does the Nobel prize have to be, you know, a novel or, you know, is it something we need to think about, you know, pushing people to write more novels or it's sort of that tradition of poetry that's really strong as well. So, yeah, I guess it's, yeah, I'm just trying to think, yeah. And the thing is too, because Indonesia is so big, there's, there's writers all over, you know, the archipelago, of course, that we haven't even really connected with yet. So that's why I feel like there's more out there

that I don't yet know about that I need to find. I agree, I agree. Look, you know, if I go to the bookstore or if I go to Amazon, there's not a whole lot of history books on Indonesia. Right? I mean, there's a lot, but there's not a lot, if you know what I mean, right? Now, the lot that I see are mostly written by non-Indonesians. Right?

That's true. It's true. And is that a problem? I think it is a problem. And I think it's important for Indonesians to be sensitive to their own way of looking at history, not other people's way of looking at history of their country, right? Yeah. I mean, it might also be a question of economics. I mean, if you decide to write a book, I mean, that takes a big chunk of your time.

And maybe for Indonesians, maybe they don't have the liberty to just think, I'm going to write a book and not have an income, you know. Whereas in the West, you can do that. You can say the publisher, I'm going to write this book and can you give me an advance, which might be $15,000, which for people here, that's a huge amount of money. So maybe it is a question of economics. I mean, I read the most amazing book the other day, but it's written by an American journalist about the last whalers,

you know, the whaling community in Tamarera. And I don't know if Indonesians have written about that. But I thought, well, he would have got an advance from the publishing house that he could focus on this work that would pay the bills, etc. Yeah. So, of course, you're going to get a lot of non-Indonnesians writing about these things because they can survive when they choose to do these works. Let me push on this. we have seen episodes where publishing houses have gotten disrupted, right, by the uprising technological behemots. Right?

They're not only democratizing, but they're disrupting the conventional wisdom of publishing literary products. Now, does that offer a hope for the future writers so that they could get, you know, monetized or they could get monetary support from some of these, you know, technological or tech behemots who can actually afford it a little bit better, a little bit faster, a little bit more than some of the pre-existing publishing houses. Well, I mean, it probably is the way forward for a lot of people. I guess, you know, as you're saying, publishing is changing by the minute anyway. Yeah.

So if they could get support. I mean, you know, I love reading books, but I tend to use my Kindle a lot now because often I can't. You know, I can't do that. I'm amazed. I just can't get out of this, you know, paper. Yeah, I know, you mean. I mean, I know. I prefer a paper book, but if I really want to read something and I don't have it, I just think, okay, I just use my Kindle.

Yeah, I think there's probably more opportunities now. to find a voice or to put your work out there. And of course, social media is one enormous way also to promote what you're doing. Absolutely. Yeah. You can monetize, you know, on any of the pipes, you know, in social media. It's true. It's true.

And I think I know like with the Aussie authors or I'm not sure about other international authors, some of them are reluctant to promote their work, and if you don't, you just get forgotten. So the normal publishing houses now don't really promote writers as much as they would have in the past. Right. So it's an open field now. You know, the more you promote yourself, the more you'll be seen and heard and sell more work. So, yeah, there's a lot of options around. No, I think this will catch on.

And I hope your festival will expose, you know, the year. young writers particularly, the not so young writers also, to these new possibilities of monetizing, right, as opposed to the traditional route that they would have been, you know, basically depending upon. And number two, going back to the history or topic of history, you know, there need to be many more books on the greatness of Indonesia throughout the Sriwijaya empire, the Majapahid Empire, and anything in between or anything thereafter or anything preceding. And anything preceding, I think, could have included, you know, the Toba explosion, you know, which took place about 75,000 years ago.

Not many people talk about this, but I've been hypothesizing that, you know, whatever happened with Lake Toba, which was a huge volcanic, you know, eruption about about 75,000 years ago. And this correlated with the cognitive revolution of humanity that took place about 70,000 years ago. Just by way, the sheer pain, you know, because billions of tons of materials were spewed into the air for thousands of years,

and that caused a major climactic disruption. And I thought, you know, anybody that survived that, I think, would have been or could have been or should have been, must have been. smarter than before. And that was the cognitive revolution that took place 70,000 years ago. So how about if we get some Indonesian writer to research into that and write about it and present it in a plausible manner? I think that would be awesome. But you know, I mean, you know what we could do with that? If we had funding, right, that sort of work should be many,

by Simon Winchester. So I sort of think you look at people who were doing it well and he's an absolute expert and loves Indonesia. And he wrote Cracker Tower and those sorts of books. So I think to do something like that really well and to hope that it would enter an English market, you should look at those people who are already doing it well, like Simon, and get them to mentor someone

because I think it's a whole different skill set how to write that kind of nonfiction kind of work in a storytelling kind of way that makes everybody want to read it. So I think there's a possibility, but I would think they should be mentored by someone who's already doing that. Right. I mean, maybe because we mentioned this on a show, it's probably going to get written, you know, by an English or an Aussie or an American or whatever.

I'm okay with that, but I think it's important for that story. to be told, narrated by an Indonesian. I agree. But the other problem can be, so once they've got the published work, and this is something we've noticed that sometimes if they get invited to our festival, for example, and well, for a start, not everybody's comfortable speaking English, that's fine. We bring in translators.

But sometimes they also need guidance in how to speak, publicly about their work. You know, this was something we were trying to get some sort of workshop together as well just to say, okay, because again, as I said, my whole thing is I don't want to see Indonesians left behind. So sometimes I think they need to learn how to be a little bit more forceful because, you know, Westerners can be really bossy. So, yeah, so once you've got the work, there's also some of them need a little bit more

guidance on how to present the work. I agree. Look, I mean, without mentioning names, I think some of the tech companies, they ought to be vested in supporting financially, you know, some of the literary talents of Indonesia so that, you know, the market is huge, you know, with 270 million people in this country and more than 300 million people in Southeast Asia. To be able to read things that are cool, things that are interesting that that happened, you know, in the past. in this place. Yeah. You know, one thing we've started with the festival. Actually, my daughter's started this, Lakshmi. She asked if she could start a book club with the Ubud Riders and Readers Festival

on Instagram, IG Live, because she also wanted to somehow create a community for young women to appreciate literature more. And I think once you start to appreciate literature more, then you read more and then maybe you start writing. So we've started our own book club, IG Live, Wood Writers Festival at this moment for women, but we'll open that up for everybody. Just talking about favourite books, you know, interviewing someone each week, discussing these things.

And, yeah, that's our job to just try and grow our community to create more interest in reading and then eventually a greater pool of writers. I think, you know, we do things step by step. So that's stage one at this point. Wow. Okay, again about the future, right? And let's talk about cuisine, right? If we go to, I don't know, New York, London, Tokyo, Beijing, well, in Beijing, you'll find lots of Chinese restaurants.

But equally in New York and London, right? Why is it that we don't find as many Indonesian restaurants, or as ubiquitously as we see other types of cuisine. Is it just about money or is it also about taste or is it just about lack of education or socialization of the cuisine to the international community? I mean I'm always blown away by Chinese because they're so fearless in business, you know, they have the confidence. Yeah, confidence. that's the key word, confidence to, to forge your head with business, where sometimes I think, and certainly with...

The entrepreneurial spirit. Yes, there we go. Yes, entrepreneurial spirit. So maybe with Indonesians and Bananese too, I think, sometimes, yeah, they're too shy sometimes to do these things. But anyway, aside from that, what is it? We all ask ourselves, what is it? So in Melbourne, for example, there are Indonesian restaurants,

but most of them are sort of catering for the student. So they tend to be more casual kind of canteen-like restaurants. Whereas, you know, with Chinese restaurants, you now have the really top-end, fantastic ones. So I guess it's maybe it's a financial issue, you know, because even for me trying to invest overseas, like in Melbourne was in the end too difficult. and yeah, the entrepreneurial spirit.

I think also, for example, with Chinese cooking, you don't need a lot of ingredients in a way. You've got your ginger and your scallions, etc. And all the rest, a lot of it can be bottled sauces. But when you're talking about recreating Indonesian food, you know, you've got to have your turmeric and your galangal and your ginger and barley, kensur, and then you have to have all the seeds and the nuts.

Don't forget the tamarin. And the tamarin, yeah, and the palm sugar. So, I mean, there's a lot of ingredients there. And they're expensive over there. You know, lemon grass only is like, I don't know, in Australia, it's like worth 15,000 rupees just for one, you know. So I think there's, yeah, there's the additional costs of recreating the most authentic food you can.

And you can use the packet Bungbuya, tapikan. It's not as effective, you know. So there's kind of dilemmas. And we've talked about that a lot with, we've had so many discussions lately about gastro diplomacy and how do you get Indonesian food out there. But yeah, I guess until you have to support them with financial benefits, I guess, or maybe come up with an even better product that is a packaged spice paste.

I mean, they did that in Thailand, didn't they? So I guess follow the model of Thailand. You know, the Thai food is ask, complicated as our food, right, in terms of the spices that are required to make. But they seem to be, you know, be more present. Right. Yeah, no, you're right. But they got support.

Remember? So they did have a whole program to, okay, push the food out there. So suddenly almost overnight in Australia, every other corner, there was Chinese food and the other corners of Typhoon. So, yeah, there was that government assistance that helped them to, I think, they provided, yeah, that the paste, suddenly you could buy the paste, you could buy the sources, so everything was accessible. And I, and that's true because even then, that's when suddenly you could buy lime leaves. So there seemed to be this effort from the Thai government

and bringing in the ingredients needed at an affordable price that then helped them push their food right out there. And maybe, I don't know if they had programs that assisted these young entrepreneurs, you know, how to style the restaurant and how to really get it off its feet, you know, get it going. What's exciting in Melbourne right now is that now, you know, you've had the parents come out and start up the restaurants. Now the next generation, the children are moving forward. And we have one fantastic one in Melbourne called Jinta Thai.

And what I really love about it is it's the second generation of kids. They're all young Thai kids. They're all groovy. gorgeous restaurant and the food is as authentic as they can produce it. So I think there has to be financial assistance but also a commitment to make it as authentic as they would eat it and not adjust it too much for the Western palate. I'm not talking about chili heat. It just has to have those layers of flavors that we all know about and love. They just have to represent that as authentically as possible.

See, it doesn't sound that bad. I mean, it sounds like these issues are fixable, right? So that actually gives us hope. Oh, yeah, it can be done. Yeah, absolutely. Again, it just needs a dedicated team. It just needs government support. Yeah, you can do it in stages as well.

You just need to be really focused. Right. You know, we had a guest here a few weeks ago who is a, who is a, coffee guy. And he, copy canangan. Right. And he's basically, you know, expanded in such a big way.

He's going to exceed a thousand outlets. And he's thinking of expanding to three to four thousand in, I don't know, in the near foreseeable future. But he's already thinking of the long game where he's thinking of getting 30,000 to 40,000 outlets across the globe. I mean. I think I heard about him. You know, it's very rare that you hear this sort of ambition or aspiration, you know, from a young entrepreneur who is really, I think he's figured out the mojo in the sense that, you know, he can get each one of these outlets to break even in like a number of months.

I'm guessing eight, nine months. And he can sustain this business, you know, in a good way. And if he does that successfully, my gosh, you can imagine. imagine, right, what sort of a brand ambassador this thing is going to be or he's going to be for Indonesia around the world. Fantastic. That is going to put Indonesia at the same kind of level that, you know, we think of India, we think of China, we think of Thailand, you know, from a cuisine standpoint. Yeah, I'm going to ask him to sponsor my food festival. Well, okay, he's probably going to be mad at me.

No, no, but I think he's a good guy for you to have a conversation with. No, you're right. And he's a good guy for the government to have a conversation with because you need those creative minds that are actually going to help everybody move forward because that's what you need, like a fearless entrepreneur that says, okay, this is how we're going to do it. And he's got all the facts behind him. So, yeah, they're kind of set up for, you know, expansive kind of big efforts.

they succeed. But you know what's interesting is that see when I was young we didn't know that Indonesia had coffee like we even drank like my mom if she was really lashing out she would buy the Dawa Eggbirds coffee, Makona. That was an absolute treat that was our special coffee for guests and it was from the Netherlands you know it's like Dutch coffee so so it would have been Indonesian or one of their colonies. So we had no idea that coffee was from Indonesia, let alone chocolate, you know. So sometimes I think Indonesia has to claim these things more. I mean, now in Melbourne, you know, Melbourne likes to think of themselves as the world coffee or

cafe latte experts. I mean, you see Indonesian coffee on the lists now, but that's only quite recent. Yeah, we had no idea. it was something that other countries had, but we never knew Indonesia had that. And the other thing is, you know, I teach Bahra-Nese-Indonesian cooking. And I have a lot of fun with this nowadays because every time I serve tempe, I say to the students, okay, so where do you think this comes from? And most of the time people think it's maybe Japanese or Chinese.

sometimes they say California or America. Oh my. And I know. And these are kids from outside Indonesia or from Indonesia? Yeah, no, outside Indonesia. No, these are Westerners, right? So some of the Australians now know that it's Indonesian, but most of the time people don't really know.

Not even everybody has actually tried it, you know. So I think sometimes Indonesia needs to tell. their stories as well. The fact that we have amazing coffee here, chocolate, tempe, and all sorts of things. So they have to claim what they have too. Look, Spice used to be the narrative, right? And the Dutch became the best narrator for Indonesian Spies, right? In a good way or in a bad way.

Coffee, I think, is a narrative, right? And I think that any coffee entrepreneur that's going to globalize, will be the right kind of narrator for Indonesia. I mean, it's sort of like the same effort that you're trying to do in terms of getting literary talents to write and narrate about Indonesia or about anything that projects Indonesia onto the international scene. Your coffee is sexy too, isn't it?

Yeah. And I think after coffee it could be Tempe. Tempe is, it could be the next narrative, right? We just need to figure out who the narrative. will be that's going to popularize Tempe internationally. Yeah, yeah, true, true. Yeah, well, coffee is very masculine too, isn't it? I mean, if you...

So we've talked about, you know, tourism, we've talked about climate change, we've talked about, of course, the environment, we've talked about, you know, food, we've talked about the future in terms of how we can help shape Indonesia. Indonesia. Any, anything, any final words you want to say that would be good for Indonesia in the future? I just think it maybe needs a whole new team that are going to help drive it forward, the right team. Young people, you know, like your Kopikkanangangangay. As I said, I'm just always blown away by the amount of young people and the kind of energy and creativity they have. So maybe there needs to be, yeah,

a team to help direct all of that too, you know. It reminds me the film with Tom Hanks, you know. Which one? Oh, the one where he goes back in time and he becomes a kid. Oh, okay. Big. Big. Yeah.

That was in the 80s, man. Yeah, that was a good movie. Yeah, so he came in and ended up with the mind of a 10-year-old. And he turned their business around because suddenly. part where he was trying to eat that little corn. What do you call that? Bamboo shoot or whatever. Baby corn.

Yeah, baby corn. Yeah, true, true. So, I mean, if we want to move forward and create more opportunities for the young people and really, yeah, show people what Indonesia is all about, maybe we need a team of young people, you know, to head that movement because they have such creative energy. But, yeah, there is. many stories to tell, even just in terms of the history of the islands. I mean, I just find that

fascinating. Yeah, so we just need good storytellers and young people who are committed and passionate about these different aspects of Indonesia and how to really present that. And just kind of wow the world because, and I think right now is a time to do it with COVID, because I know every time I post something on Instagram, even just like a dog on the road and I get all these comments, people saying, oh my God, I miss Bali so much. And you're thinking, you miss Bali even until you get upset or, you know, like sad because you miss the animals. And, you know, so there's so many stories to be tell. But yeah, as you'd say, you need the right narrator. Yeah, the person that's going to represent that story or etc. Yeah. I think you're doing a great job in encouraging.

encouraging the young talents into becoming, you know, good narrators for the country. Yeah, well, they're so cute and they're so cool and they're so sweet, you know. I just, you know, they're so polite. You don't get that in Australia. I mean, you know, I'm just always, yeah, it's a joy because it's just that real compassion that everybody here has, you know, and just being respectful. Right. So lovely.

Yeah, it makes you feel good. Yeah. Well, it's been fascinating, Janet. We've talked more than an hour about a bunch of things. And continue the whatever, you know, the journey. And I hope to, I hope I get invited into your next festival. Yeah, you must. Yeah, please.

I would love you to come. Yes, please. I'll bring my family out there. Yes, yes, okay. I'm going to keep annoying you about this, okay. some poems or whatever, poem reading and whatever. Yeah. Yeah, and music too.

Yeah, you like music. So I'm ticking over about how we can do more collaboration with traditional music and other groovy people. So, yeah. Very good. Okay, Janet, thank you so much, and I look forward to seeing you soon. Yes, thank you so much.

Thank you so much. Thank you. Same, same. Teman, that's Janet Daniv, founder of Ubud Riders' Readers' Festival. Thank you. This is Endgame.