Endgame with Gita Wirjawan - Levana Sani: Pengobatan Masa Depan dengan Farmakogenomik

Episode Date: February 24, 2021

Levana Sani mendirikan Nalagenetics, startup bioteknologi yang mengembangkan tes genetik yang lebih mudah dipahami, lebih terjangkau, dan terlokalisasi untuk dokter dan pasien di pedalaman Indonesia dan Asia. Dengan mempelajari respons obat terhadap karakteristik DNA tertentu, Levana Sani ingin mendobrak status quo dan tantangan struktural pelayanan kesehatan, sembari kembali memposisikan pasien dan masyarakat sebagai penerima manfaat utama sebuah inovasi.

Market size in healthcare almost means nothing. You know it's a big problem. Everybody knows it's a big problem. The question is, how do you, from the money is, who's the peganguant of the same thing? This is N-GEN. Hello, we're coming Levana Sanih, founder of Nala Genetics.

And this is a one of a commatant because we've been a lot of ourmatter because we've got to be about genetics. Levi, thank you, can come in our our time. Yeah.

Thank you. There's been in my, today, today, about going to be about genetics, but maybe can be said

about kind of like, you're going to like, you're going to Ursula, and Santa Ursula,

and to what's, hobby, and then you can't with bio-chemia? So, when I was little, I was very with my my family. So, we're in the room that just there and there's a beremant, and the family of my goshah.

So, and then, I'm at the Semarang? I was from there, and then, then, after two-bun, then, because my father, I was architect.

So, he was designed my house. So, from from the little, we've already did didic to enjoy, I guess, I guess, barang that can be made so, so,

so, we're making, we're making, we're going to be here, so, not going to beindah, that's, you know, and then, mom's there, from the family,

pharmace. So, they've been talking with opat-obat-obat, and then... Pharmacist or doctor, or? She's a business, So he's a person.

So he's a man, but from my mom my, or other than my is my son-in-nay-nest-a-farmacy. Yeah, so they're get-tembed, then, and then, and then, it's in P. Now, there's in Semarang, and then, there in some locations in Indonesia,

also. So, from the little, maybe, the conversation in the room that, had, I've been talking in entrepreneurial journeys, so, mom and papa, you know, go on business, you just, in the meja, in the mecha on the meja-makan.

They're, there are a problem with or to fire a people, just, just, just, just. We're, why, why marra, we're not really, but it's part of the daily life, for a had. So, when I grew up, mom and papa,

we always said that we should pursue our passion, so they're very, like, like, people, they're also. So I want to like what, it's just what I'm going to be able to be what, what's the important, the community has good, what they're saying,

values are good, and also, push to the extreme that you can do. So whatever you decide to be, but be the best that you can. So... There are a brother? There's a car.

There's a architect, okay. So my brother and my dad, I like to work with talking about, with the big-bidang architecture, so, after that, if I'm, sometimes, I'm going to go-in,

you know, like, sometimes, like, sometimes, yeah, room-sacit-in, because we're, yeah, well-myrude, so it's quite a, like, like,

entrepreneurial family, and I owe it to them to, to, to, to, to, can make what I'm doing what, what,

catalysts to bio-comia? Oh, When you're in high school? Yeah. Yeah. Okay, yeah. So, we must be three, yeah. So, make life very simple.

IPA, IPS, BAS, BAS, BAS, and that's the biggest life decision that I had to make. So, yeah, that's the biggest life decision that I had to make. And, I was, I mean, I'ma, it's much mathematics. Yeah, I feel, Ipa. Then, after that, in IPA, that's what I think that I think

that I'm the most of the world that I'm really, better, not know, and just can be able to learn to use technology. That's biochemistry, which is molecular, things that happen on a molecular scale. And, why that is that because

Atom Periodic table, you know, are interacting with each other, so, so, it can be in the way that A, B, or C, it can just be in the number or things that you can measure or things that needs technology to be able to be it. To me, it's a life of mystery. So it's a life of mystery.

So it's really, I want to learn more about it's what, and, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, mom, papa, monging infarmacy, that, bio-chimia was the center of all of that. So, while my mom's my name is the economy,

my mom's like pharmacist, so he always he always talked about why this is more effective than other, it's very simple discussion, like, yeah, this can not not even uping, but, can't as a lot of people, we think, why? Why?

This is this, and this, while it's just the other one, can be effect something, one, one, no, miscellaneous, one, no, miscellaneous, I think, really drive me to ask why. And my, if I asked why, they never said, they never said, no, say, no, say,

they always try to answer. Yeah, that, that, my family, my family, my family, my family's, really, to have conversations and discussions. So, from the child, that's been made up, percapable like that. Like, it's more the binan for

to, uh, so, so, so, so, byproducts are yeah, yeah, yeah, So, it's a cuterbuking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, they're kind of,

so they're even dumb, like, but... And then, I... ...and, I like the field too much that I overshot a bit. Now I do genetics. But it was because of that early... Obeye.

What about? For the little? I draw. I paint until today. That's from... Exactly. Yeah. So, yeah.

So, if we said, So, Papa, it's, can, look at buildings, so if we're living, for him, for he, it's to belajured. He wants to design, the building in where, so if we see,

we look at home, museum, we can't play Game Boy, until, at least, 10 paintings, that's... So, and so... And so... ...they... I think, as...

My mom and dad, I think they're really like artisan, so they collect a lot of paintings. So if in my house there, there's many of the lusings of Indonesia, they're very much. They're very much. Oh, I'll let them decide.

I don't know. It looks nice in the house. But I think they're meaning to keep it. I think it's more of a price possession at this point. Yeah, but because because So, it's like we're very comfortable with just colors, and creating things with hands, that's, that, it's got to,

it's quite natural, I would say. Because my dad draws all the time. He, if, if he's at work in the room, also, he's just in the table, he's going to think, oh, it's... Yeah, in the cartas, in tissue, in, in the gambas, in the backunan.

Okay, I'm not... Yeah, so, if he's like, Then he's like, menta ballpen, then he's going to be able to. I'm there, that's people who are going to make, like to make, right? Like, right? It comes and goes. It's what they say.

There's also, if they're like to go brough, they're just to makegang ballpen, for he can't, like, what he's like to think, or what he's going to say. Oh, and while he's going to be able to say. No, no, I don't know how he's like to, like, like, they're going to, you? Wow.

Wow. That's so interesting. So I'm not surprised. You're not surprised. I'm not surprised. I think it's so interesting that the way that my dad and my brother also, if I'm going to be able to, they're like, that's always we're saying

my brother, is, if he's a very visual person. So if he's always the hand where, like, like, trying to describe concepts, he's going to janexan the building, it's already a 3D model. He's trying to communicate it with words very hard. That's okay. College, how?

College was fun. Can, like, school in the Sema Santo Rusula, is disciplined, academic, but maybe not the most wholesome, so, maybe, um, when I was my father in USC, I went to University of Southern California in Los Angeles. Caget really, that there's all these cultural aspects that have all these cultural aspects,

that have been, not just to learn, then, then, there's actually a lot more things that you can learn outside of the classrooms. So it was the first time. It really was. It was a very fun experience, I would say. And, in there, too, there's a few professors professors that,

because the vibe that's very, what, what, yeah, if Los Angeles, can, yeah, it's just, it's a Nobel Prize winner. Yeah, right. Nobel Prize winner, but if you're going to do with crocs and caos kaki, and, like, bolong, like, bolong, and they're, and they're going to gawling, they're, they're going to gung up the murid

the next appeared, they've been here. So they said, I have had this idea, there's who's who's who have been what I've got, or some kids, oh, I've ever baca, article,

that's entertained with the professor. And it wasn't based on a textbook, we, first, lecture, but, after that, just go off tangents on... Real events, current events, that, that, absolutely.

Yeah, exactly. So, we were talking about the central dogma. which is RNA DNA protein. Then, that was like 15 minutes, we managed to stick with that topic. And then the professor, then, you know, the professor, then, you know, the professor, then, different types of RNA

that, maybe create different interactions with the molecule such that not always, if one, one RNA, so DNA, so DNA, so protein. Maybe it can be different, the protein can be da, because arenas can bind with itself, or bind with another molecule or something like that. So, and,

and, some way, is something that's been in textbooks, and that is the questions that he intrast just. That was the first time I saw someone who can, who can, um, who, who, um, who, So I think about new ideas, but even though he's really

expert. And I fell in love with that. I think I fell in love in science, because I saw that people who are expert, but they're not, they're not, my expertise is in learning.

So whatever new science, let's bring it on. Bring it into the class. However young you want, doesn't matter. You have a question that you're that work with me. We'll figure it out together. So I really like that. That's more about subject or guru that's that makes you really,

bener-bele with bio-chemia? Yeah. I mean, you know, lots of people who who've got to major, right? When you're going to major what, then, to this, to this, here, here, here, because, maybe, user experience is a bit.

That's true. what he aspiracred. Because guru or because quality of the or the topic or subject? But, I do think we live in a world where if you're in a, if you're in a, if we're in a, if we're in a, more, then you make a lot more money.

It's not measured by value, yeah. Tell me, buddy. Yeah. Yeah. I think I was lucky that I saw this intersection of business early on. I saw an escape. So I still can be science, but I also saw a career in science. There are a lot of people who amissed, but they have to feed a family back home.

They have to make it themselves in the measure that was, yeah, it's financial measures, then material success first. And, that, because science is model apprenticeship, if not, if not idealist from the first, you never come back to science. It's so hard to come back to science. So I think you're right. It's unfortunate that the system is very hard,

and when I was graduate college, I've made more PhD. But I was very lucky, because, there was program business school, work two-torn, school two-year-two-school, and in two-town,

I was in the middle-genetic before going to business school, and, and, in the bidang-genetic, then, then, I was just super-lux. So I was just super-lux. When in the business school?

When in Singapore, in Genome Institute. Yeah, exactly. We're like, yeah, we're working with project just, one of the boss of my ideas, like, if we're making this company. And I just happened to be one of the only people who interested in science, sorry, business. And I told him I was going to business school,

and then my, and then he said, Great. We're the scientists. We'll take care of the science. You'll do the business. You'll take care of the money. Okay. So, okay, so what's the thing to business school, it's for the endowment scientific discovery of the story, so, how it's so sustainable?

Yeah, right? It's so interesting. So sometimes, can scientists, meant, because funding, limitation, or what and stuff. Absolutely. It's this balance of communicating what you have found. and sometimes communicating what you have found, not always,

arting it has publicized. Which is, all scientists, basically, I think, financing. At that time that's at that in Singapore, that's also,

I'm looking, how scientific funding is a problem that is a very deep thinking. So, at that, Singapore was doing So they're going to invest what is the next big thing for Singapore.

They decided it was biotech, about maybe 25 years ago. Invested in this giant city called Biopolis. And then, at that, they decided that, okay, we're too invest to the R&D, but not much of commercialization. So we want to change the funding structure so scientists, scientists, to apply.

They want research just to apply and make a commercial use case. then they're going to research, it's like that. So they have to think 10, 15 years ahead, if I'm saying I have to say, yeah. And it was a lot of debate, because all scientists,

there were, to be there, so, I'm at the principal investigator, I don't need this, I just love the science, I want to go to the US, where they pursue pure science. But for Singapore, they needed this to be

economic driver of their. So they made that shift, and it was very interesting to be in the middle of that debate. I still don't know, the answer answer to which is the right which... But... It's... ...theircantamata si, if, pragmatisman is kind of tingy... And they, of, I'm thinking, how to them... ...tetept survive for...

...jank, for the... ...itialism yet, but it's... ...the... ...medialism yet, but, but, it combined with pragmatism. I think you're right. I think being a pragmatic in Singapore means that everything needs to be measurable. Yeah.

And it's... Measurability, accountability, responsibility, blah, blah, blah. Yes, exactly. Meritocracy is in the heart of that. You know? And it doesn't always sit well with science at that time. Okay, then... Melang Buanna,

then we'll go after in business, then s'lose, then think, make-mikir, making Nala Genetics. So Nala Genetics, actually, incorporated two-bun-before I'd go.

Okay. Yeah. And then take care with the people scientists, then you're going to beck, that's-2, that's back, or more?

Or, or what? A lot of product development. So, so, at the time, we got funding to make prototype. So, so the project first thing, we're not a business plan,

we're just saying. You're telling me, Nala genetics, is what? Yeah, of course. Nala genetics, it's, we believe that genetic knowledge needs to be localized. It has to localization, and to be impactful,

to make an impact for the most of the population. So, because that, test that's genetic that is made, test genetic that's made up of the person, and clinical recommendations also also with effect that in the population that. So, two data set that has been independent to be made the population that's targeted, that's, if, if, if, if, if,

people in Indonesia, that's... The idea to make efficacy, right? Obabat-obat-abat. So, use case first we are making-effication, opat-obat-obat-abot, the bidangenamic. So, pharma and genomics.

We focus on the program it, because the recommendations is quite, so because we know protein-mone that should be-bac-or-gain-mone that gene-money-harmes

and effect is exactly what on that drug. Or very close, so very predictable. But it's a whole other field of genetics where that's a pretty much what's not always what's in the body in the body, like, BRCA 1 and 2, or breast cancer mutation,

from DNA's, there's very translasin, so that's just to be cancer, and that translation is quite different. But, paracogynomics is very close. If, if, if, if, we have, there are variant gen,

can be poor metabolizer for that particular gene. And the opatine is the endem it, so active metabolat not as much of the normal, so, this, so, this is going to take more than other than, or has to be able. So, very actionable. So our first project in Nala genetics

was to create a test for leprosy patients. So, the people Kusta. So, the people Kusta, the story is... In Indonesia? In Indonesia, in Papua. Sorry. Singapore is there's just not there, there's not there, there, but it's very little.

There was, like, one doctor who was working on it. But Indonesia, in lead bank of Papua, we're working with, that there's one gen, HLAB-1301, where if, if this person this type of gene, he'd mean a opad dapsone, can, like, all the epitale tubular, like, like, terbacar.

It starts thinking that the body is under fire, needs to fight it, you know, to be rantam with this. Then, then, of the other people Custah not many from the peniacit Custah but, but malh, mal. So it's very ironic. Then we make test that's much, well, hopefully,

it's $50,000, then we're doing to get bankers, and now, like, the time this is to reimburse with BPJS for Indonesia's-Timur. And it was crazy because we think HLAB-3-16-01 this, at least, 15-20%. It's actually up to 30% in some population. So one out of three people can't die because effect

the abet this. So, yeah, it's pretty interesting. So that was the only thing. So, first time, like, one year, that's really really doing it just, then we're getting it, oh, why,

it, come, validation biomarka this, be done with very good, lead, bankas papu's super responsive, we're so, we're just looking, maybe we can do this for the other

other, there's, there's, there's that, if it's, if it's really, if it's not it's not very efficacioning not because of their drug. Not knowing it's because their disease is getting worse. But no, if the drug works, it's not, not just not to back to the hospital.

So blood thinners, clopedogrel, yeah, a lot of medications have that type of side effects that can be pretty fatal. This big pharma not doing? Yeah, interesting. What kind of so exhaustive that we think is so long as farmaicinomics is something, it's not so new, but it's pretty new.

So maybe genetic revolution was early 2000s. Some of these drugs have been approved, or the FDA approved in the 50s. Pre-dates. Exactly. And mutation is, so. So, so.

But why they're not update? It's because they can make money Sorry. Tolong to elaborate? Yeah. I think they would do... Is your mom watching?

Yeah. I hope not of the pharmacy will go and see that. I think, you know, you have a set of resources. They're a for-profit company. They would look at things that give them the most, the biggest returns. It so happens that, you know, these adverse drug reactions, obviously is something that is something that is not the that is not the first thing that comes to mind, especially for opat-obat-obat-obat-upon,

that's not much, rather too, but in developing countries, these are the drugs that are prevalent that's the most of the past. For pharmaceutical company, that's done in the past. We need to work on the more bigger blockbuster drugs. So, so there's gap in there. But gap the gap the two-negap,

if we're going to talk about doctors-doctor, we're talking, oh, oh, abat-obotan this may have been able to identify what is an adverse drug reaction sometimes. So, maybe if effect samping ofabat it's not bekerja, they can say that, oh, well, the patient's just not

not drink a bit of a doctor. Or, yeah, if you know, the patient is going to doctor and then the other than the other's not the other not the same, that, the care system is not connected. very hard to identify. And this is a type of decision that,

why I believe that pharmacogenomic it's really quite because it's a type of thing that if you know in the beginning all these side effects or permutations of what could happen next, it's very important to just get it right in the beginning. Part of least resistance. Perfect.

So your clientele, So, the end-tojun-to-firmation or end-users? Yeah. So... Or it's two-two. I think in healthcare it's interesting, because the Paca, not the payer, sometimes.

And, the big-bayer, not the decide. So, it's three different people, sometimes. In the worst case scenario, or the most complex, the buyer is the insurance company. The decision-maker is the doctor. The user is the patient. So there's a patient.

So for one thing to happen, three people need to agree. Each of them have their own incentives and their own interests. But the prussarance, they're vested in this. And user, it's vested. Doctor is how? Exactly. I think you have read extensively on this. You know this very well.

I think doctors are, I think doctors really want to give the bait, for patients, yeah, it's no doubt. But what's making them make them suck is, because it's just the time of day. It's really, I see a patient in the front of my, has to do something, and I just have on average, 6-10 minutes. Is it.

Is there a time to tell us what? have to take samples, or anything? Effects something? No, no time. I just give, if this patient this is like the patient that I've seen before, yeah, I'd just give just the medicine and redos, that's right.

We don't blame the doctors, but it is the system that's even sometimes to adapt technologies technology technology, where requires a little bit of investment from them. So part of Nala genetics, when we make,

we know that, to make tests, don't, not be to-jual. Because test, we're just, we're doing information. So, information that is, it's be packaged as a suiopay... It's to be able to beacredaicant. Exactly. Yeah.

...aregant, to some extent, the end-users, and the doctor's also. The doctor that's the best, can, is the doctor that not-bacal get-lame with the patient's, I agree. Yeah.

Yeah. But, now payment system is back. Yeah. Before BPJAS, I think it's much better. But before BPJAS, the question is how much,

it's just to come to me. Yeah. Yeah. So, like, yeah, so they're to beckle too, yeah, there's a little

just enough, you know, that. And then, I think, it's good, But it's the same time, the time of the patient that, the most of the school in America, I saw when I saw that companies that in the TASDNA what's what I'm doing business model

that I'm doing this I implementatis in here, or Southeast Asia. The main biggest difference is really the awareness of the market. There's this class of users in the US Namaic, citizen scientists. How great is that name, right? It's a, you're a, right, it's such a citizen scientist, And we usually think scientists,

that's a lot of people are in lab, but because, because, because many people, these days, it's, it's, too, it's about their health of

then, then, digital data, and they want about about about their themselves, that they

will see you now. I love that, book. It's said that that doctor's to be able to the other way around, the other way around.

So I think that's the biggest difference. So when I'm back to Indonesia or back to Singapore, you guys, that's culturally speaking and awareness level is something that we still that we're still to the end-user, and then to insurance company. Give me some numbers.

If this really, this one-tem-tem-tem-in-in-in to make upicacquacy from from from from from from from from, so there's adverse reactions, like, how percent, is, from the from abatant,

from the same this is the same thing did do, at least, how much per cent, the time. We did a study, the same in Singapore, a year can save $240 million.

Okay, that's, that's from the... Glontor can, oh, okay, so like the percentage of savings. So, you could save, what, 20%? of how much you would have been spending before?

Or 10%, or 5%, or... Right. So, if we're getting into the rate of hospitalization can be reduced. So about 30% of hospitalizations can be reduced. If, if, if, if, if, and, and, to be the other past, right? Right.

And it's just in ambulatory care just in ambulatory care just. Many, maybe, in psychiatry, where we've met a patient that eight-town, depression, try, many of the other, so, this type of test can tell you, yeah, this type of test is not just not good, not, not just not good-not-not-coced with me because genetica my,

and because of the depressive I'm different, or anything like that. It's just that you need the right medication for you. Yeah. the other, it's just, not to drink of a bit ofabat same again. Absolutely. Yeah.

Exactly. Yeah. So, one of the, yeah, I think that's true. So, interestingly, so one of our project we with Dr. Samuel Hariono in MRCCCC, he, he, can we're like,

project that they're for tobacco, for breast cancer, adjuven therapy. So, it has to be a drugsyphine this is to be minimum every day after chemotherapy for five years. So, when we're going to ask, is, if again, is, if it's going to be a person that has to beinum the abat 40 milligrams, or gante opat as well-nowning?

Patients who are getting Dr. Sam, this, okay, like, genetic-neux. But most of the conversation is, is that is, is that I have to eat more more than I'm going to be able? Orpacca? Yeah. So, we are grouped. It's so interesting that pharmacogenomic, genetic testing,

is grouped in the age of wellness. And that's a reason, it's a reason, it's one of the other, we, we, can be hopeful, because if it's a very patient-driven. So a lot of room to grow, because patients are rising middle class.

They're all very interested in their health. But at the same time, if I look, there's very much science education that's doing, from the doctor's, from the side of the patient's. And that's one of the things that we are constantly doing. You know, I've been following this line of thinking. There's one book, the diabetic coat

that's written by Jason Funk. Paradoxically, it's... ...sooky, the... ...some people, to, ...withsumptyching insulin, ...smoking insulin resistance... Yeah, right? It just sounds like it's been a scam.

Yeah, right? And if I think, it's industry insulin in America per-tawn to, it's, at around $27 million. Yeah, right? And this, it's already from maybe 25 to 30-year-old to 30 years later. So,

for we can be able to be about to not to not to untic the other, this is the type of diabetes. Because exposure basically causes resistance. Yeah.

Yeah. So, we're exposed with the climate, the more we're quite with the dingin. But, the more we're exposed with insulin, and we're resist,

insulin. So, the glucose that's the must be anterin that's not into the cell of theot. Absolutely. So, I don't know, how to we can socialization or to make-education to the people who are much. It starts with the doctors.

So, okay. Ideally. Ideally. Ideally. Because, by the way, full disclosure, my dad was a doctor. Wow. But I'm looking, this, doctor, this, has more be able to be able to put in-noticed

or to letak-can proportion of the pruducing of the penur, or what's that, which, not-washed to be abatting. Because he's more than, no, no use to do that, I think, also, maybe, I see, sometimes I also look, I mean, the resistance is because, the way that they are paid, yeah.

So the incentive system is very so that doctors, doctors, it's practic as perluner as a fee-for-service model. So, it's a fee-for-service model. So, it's the payer if there intervention. So, he has to do an intervention. Passing, it's already in the front of the to do something,

so that visit worthwhile for the day of it. But if, if you can't be like model BPJS, so, it's, if it's been able to be able to, it's aligned, that's more aligned. So if I buyer, yeah, if I'm just so much. Accuntability is, it's just.

Exactly, yeah. I think I was so excited. So, when we were so excited, to make test DNA we're to payers, we're getting with people, not many, like there are 5 to 10 people who are in U.I. now, health economists. They do cost-effectiveness studies

to look, okay, this is what is it that's going to be in B.P.js? And, why? So, if, if, mindset, we can make a decision on a public health level to say that not everyone not everyone has to be the most money. We can even more than we can give more access,

or less side effects to some people. Or we can test people so that effect on the other than the effect of the other than the other the effect's the same thing to the next are put in place. That's why I think genetics today is so interesting. Because of that systemic level change. If not, if just for diacognosis

or just to pay a test-mahal. Not even because that can't just be that's just, who can get access to information this. But if, if, if it's in implementation the system wide-level, it can touch everybody,

so who needs it the most. I think the pern of genetics, in batas, wadar, it's very can make make make sense and make sense, to increase efficiency, proficiency, and health-and-saint.

And, long-javity. Yes. Yeah, right? And... Now, I want to ask, we'll... We'll end up next, DNA, RNA, and everything. But I want to ask,

if you're impamination, that, if you're going to be sequence genome of their, this is like this, and the abat this is not-cococed. Obabate this is not just not just not just not just not just, not there's no alternatively.

How that? Yeah, great question. And then there's not pharmacies that can can't make upaughts that's about? Great question. I think, um, the job is,

don't be-bacca. Okay. Because... Don't bebac what? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, so, um,

I think it's, one of the reasons because implementation in the calang of the doctors, there's variants of uncertain significance, or VUS. Artin' that if, if in the car of the cancer, we know mutation this is happening, but is this is the mutation that's the

that's not sure. Similar to your question just now. We know that this can can't cause this enzyme this is not as they say, cancer is the biggest perversion of genetics. Interesting. Yes. There's so much unknown about it.

Because it replicates. It does. It does. Yeah, can't... Sorry, I cut you off. It's just, there's a whole other... I was just thinking in my brain, oh, there's a whole other topic. Yeah, I was like, oh, should we go on that tangent?

But, yeah, so, so, if, if, if, if, if, one of one decision that we have to make early on, we're doing, to make, to make tests Alzheimer's. And Alzheimer's is a disease that no other medications, one of the things in the other pharmacogenomics that we make is we want to

also prediction of chronic conditions. So with the same level of thinking, if we can predict, effects something of the other than other more advanced science, but basic science is the same. And if we can see that people who would be from Alzheimer's,

no other than the time of the 30, who's got to give us to give them information to the person. And we're as a time, at the time, when the founding team, we'll hold back that information. We focus on, because there's a bio-marca that's actionable. why we have focused to information information that maybe not be actionable, so we decided or not to do that.

But, many companies other who are the right of the patient to know. And I completely agree with that too, as long as the doctor, or as long as there support system so that patient is to do it's to be the plan that's as well. So, with some product we have other,

we always look at that recommendations that we're that's the best science out there. So we have a team where, who's really, really, it's just to be in the database, database that's that's that's that's the recommendation engine that we're doing our own recommendations,

we don't make our own recommendations, just to read what is the best science out there. And just to the doctor at the time that they're the best decision. Asal doctor's percaya that recommendations that's been good for patients, then should go with it. But we're treating, we're not giving information

that's about genetics for man, for man who is something so dear to us, it never changes. It's very unique to all of us. information that's not be taken lightly. So, in our own, we think, that's something that we have taken responsibility. If you've got to give us a solution, do."

So, this has it been there's not there's resistance from industry? Because the importance of their gerus, yeah. Now, that's how that, so, that, so you can't be able to be don't even it to discourage upay of your to be optimale can

to make uptimorean the power of abat or not do not be taken in the drugation? If you're not really. Yeah. Resistance, I think when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when,

technology, anything, there's always the 80-20 rule. There's just, there's just, early adopters. People who, who are the people who are the people that, yeah, we're just grab the lowest-hanging food first. And, the good is, because doctors this, the resistance is not coming from,

what, uh, not from, uh, opinion, because this is a fact, that, you know, that personalization, of the opat-obat-obatan is here to stay. Not even, not we're going to be back 20 years ago. Yeah. So, it's either join now or join later. That's just the question.

So if there are doctors who are who join now and really take a chance that, okay, this technology new, I want to learn technology this and I can put up my name that this can make uper practice can help me help me make up practice my. And I want invests to solutions this.

That is doctors who end up making the, what nulla genetics exists today. So, when I first time I started with Nalajenetics, one of the biggest decisions as a CEO that I have to make is choosing the right partners. Because, if I will just talk to WAL. Yeah, so resistance is key. is there, doesn't mean we can go to other doors and other partners.

In Nala Genetics, the kareawainanian is there. We have 25 people. Yeah, 15 people in Indonesia, 10 people in Singapore. Scientists are about? Oh. Actually. So, that's into one, secretary, yeah.

No, there's a secretarice. Wow. So, it's, it. Not there, no, no, no, there. Can, if, if, fundraising, then, then, then, then, but... But, but the portion of scientists,

many, can? 22 people scientists and three business development. Wow. And even from business development, I always interview for people who have been there background science. Wow. So, I think, as some,

the, not so many, so, but, interestingly, we can, we also have engineers, because we also we also make software, so that's been using the genetician, this is interpretation genetic,

yeah, with software this, now softwareingy, while upon they're software engineers, they're married, or are dating scientists. So, you know, indirect effects

of, I think it's quite a niche industry. So, if, if, I think that I have to be a bitam with Gojek, like how many ways software engineers have had that's like, there's interest, if I can't win. But it's been interesting.

They're like, if we're going to be a Friday happy hours, where we try, a bunch of nerds. But there's not there, now, time PSPB like this. Oh, we're going to do. We make do. It's hard, but it's not impossible, yeah. But yeah, so when we do on Fridays,

we talk about each department pitch an idea. That is the best frontier of their team, so, the engineers pitched an idea for, the federated learning. So, we can, we say, just like, I'm just going to be. I feel like I'm getting younger now. I'm getting younger now.

I don't know, that's all that you are already very young at my heart. So, yeah, and then, and then, there's one of my product managers, before, kerjana, at the U.S.S.A. Let's talk about that. I wish she was here, too, talking about CRISPR. And then, you know, my co-founder is a bioinformatics. So, he, he, he, this is the field of biometrics. And, and the shrews, if in Nala, or there group scientists,

scientists, they're always want to share, like, this is what my field is doing, and I want to share it with you guys, and this is where we think what the company is going. So I think it's fun that there's a lot of scientists, many scientists, many scientists in the company. In 2015, Jennifer Doudna ...engibarking bernera

on CRISPR Kast9. What's your view? Net good, net bad? Oh, net good or not bad? Let's start with the easy one first. I... Oh, not good. I'm in that camp.

And I'm... And I'm also kind of when I read He was the story of the RNA is predates DNA. I'm scared. I think just through sequentially after. Right, right, right. R&A was the predator. Yeah, right.

Fromordial soup, right this, right now. From single helix to double helix. Now, how that, in return, CRISPR, Indifications, it's already looking, to where we can, how we can't mediation pediatric blindness. We can be so excited.

We can evening. We can eveningadaked many ailments or illnesses that are aggrus, humanity. Now, this, there's interpretation that's that this therapeutic, but there also that's it's enhancing.

I see, whatever's as long as we can live, more safe, more good, yeah, right? Yeah, more seychera, more than more. Yeah. Yeah. Even more is a debate, yeah?

Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure if I want to live until I'm 150. Yeah, right? We have this fun, well, not fun, but... Because we're just not used to that notion. Exactly. Would you live until 300 or 30?

Gosh, I have so many bad dreams. So, would I want them to repeat? Right, right, right. Or bad memories, rather. Yeah, right. If I'm, I think, it's relative. But, the option's there are, right? Yes.

Now, that's how, in, for the for the penitia to the front, , Chris Per Kass 9? Like if with any technology, technology itself is neutral, I think. Or knowledge is neutral. It's what you decide to do with it. can make it good or bad.

So, but that's also my personal belief. So if CRISPR, the application, like, like, the HIV babies in China, they try to cure... I think, if, if, if, if, if, there's counterbalance to technology this,

where we can say, oh, this is where as far as it goes. Of course, there's many things that's the other things that the end up the case that's not good, when it was in China, tibba-tibba public backlash not communicated well, no legal structure. It, of, it can't be cacao-bagnet,

because technology is very strong. We can do many things with CRISPR. So I think as long as there's that counterbalance, I think innovation drives towards the good. But if there's no, if there's no, if there's no, if there's no, if there's no, if there's not two sides, it's, it's just a pagard,

right, pagar moral, pagar spiritual, pagar, ag, ag, apopun, so,

if, I think I think this has to be discourses-can with all of the pangu of the penitings to beaiccad and per-beyean because, because who's who's who, who's who not want to be not-sacit? Yeah.

Yeah, right? Absolutely. Who's who's who not want, yeah, whatever, that's all this is this is a deficiency from the healthan. And that, if, if, I think I think I think we're saying we can edit,

one of G, C, A and T, that's, that's not, that's, I think, that's, if I'm in order to, I think, the possibility is endless. And just thinking, like, like, in field I'm like, the question that, I also said, "'Sebenar for Indonesia is like what?

"'We don't even to CRISPR just, we're just to CRISPR just, "'this I'm just, this I've got to say, "'doctor, you know, doctor's, "'doch, this is, this is, "'any there's a very simple decision, "'a just, they're afraid and not-brani. "'So, where it is for Indonesia, "'likey-n-fortunately, we're still,

We have to, how can't, how many people like you, like practitioners in the field, comfortable, gomonging technology-bure, especially in the policy-making sense. So if we want apply, like, like, like, alat of the health in the country, we're going to beaute, at this, they're going to the forefront of technology.

So we're the first time, we make a test, then, then, and then we're the test DNA first We're the test DNA first that is manufactured in Indonesia for test pharmacogenic. So, but we're at the end of the day, if we're at the end of the day, we're at the end of the day, we're not first time we're applying to Indonesia,

genie it's not going to apply to Singapore, because we're not getting feedback from people, In Singapore, we just present in five minutes, and there's many questions. Did you do this? Did you do that? That type of feedback, that's what that's what technology will be more better. Not just a bunch of scientists running around,

like headless chickens, so they can pinpoint, oh, this, how I'm how I can't know technology this is really, and can't be in population, without that conviction, without that dissent from regulatory bodies, like it's like not, not, not, because there's skeptic,

like, someone's going to be, oh, this technology is very bad, but, but, I'm going to. So, the end of the jukeye's like that just, it's just, it's just, it's just, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, people who are skeptical and the person who are

that's good, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's immense. I've been, uh, I've got to, uh, that, in the situation, that's too much linearity. And in the side, the side of the past, exponentiality.

Yeah, right? Now, this is how to be padu with good? What is the exponential policy making, the benturet making, the benturet? If, I'm not,

we have provocation, percapable. This is one of the platform, platform, where we're provocation percakaping that maybe just not being a percapable a day-day-a-harmus. This is not a typical breakfast conversation. Oh, I don't know what you have for breakfast, so maybe this.

Yeah, right? Yeah. But, if we're going to doork to the ball starts rolling. Maybe, the ball starts rolling, maybe it's lamben, but it's snowballs, and it's no balls, and it's more long, it's more than two, three days,

but in two, three months or two, three two, three, but it's more than not, same-a-one. So you gotta start somewhere. And I'm just to try, you know, we're not we, we're just to drawong. And, as we're sure that the impiris this is very pronounced and

and it's compelling, yeah, no-so-cathleting. And it's amazing why COVID that now, you know, the tucang gojeet, I know, it's like, I cannot imagine this... Not-girre, not. Never in a million years.

Never underestimate the lay people. They actually can get it. You just have to mention it. Every time. And if it, if it, yeah, it also begs the question, if, if it's, if it's, what trends will stay, and what trends will go away? It's just, not, what, for,

if, what, what, what, what, what, conversation that could be, in the people, that, how we can we can make it, to increase conversation this, so that they're to the right. Policymaking is a unified voice to tell them. Because if, if they're going to find

the different antigen, with saliva tests, and they're just, and too many sources of information that they have to try and it's really, it's so interesting, if it's really up to the government now. The ball is on their court. How do they shape this, you know, this curiosity and hunger for now,

health and diagnostics. And I'm, yeah, I think we're monitoring very closely as a market too. If I'm, in the way, from becoming, what, or assuring designer humans. Yeah, right? But for the importance of therapeutic, there's a lot that can be done. Cobainging.

Rakiat that's this has not hasuransy, not have B.P.js. And then, then, he'd know, But it's, if I checked DNA that cost is still or still there's just to bejanko, he's not really, to jazilin the obad that's

that he's justin that he's not mampu or he's pass-pas-past, right? Yeah, right? Or, even, he can, what, what, which, which, which, that's more more. And I think, if that, if all have got to have to beaptainan.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. important, because he's not want to bea-bebanked. Yeah? Yeah?

Yeah. Even, eh, it's, it's, it's a bit more more if we can't be more, if we can't know,

or temuant, and we're coverage of more much more more than this now, but it's wow, to

all the population in the country, and I think that that's, going back to your Go-Jack example,

or I shouldn't mention a name. But going back to your right sharing example. But if you're not, it's not, it's popular-in-like. Yeah, it's not. So, it's not. So, it's not much, like, which is a matter

for every day. Because they have been important for their health more good. Yeah, right and center, yeah? So, everyone's like, well, okay, it's not,

because if I'm not so much I can't even be thinking. So, you just take it for granted. Yeah, just take it for granted. Yeah, so, yeah, so, yeah, it's interesting to see if, if, if, if, if, if, we can't play volume. Because if we see, if we see Indonesia, can always, the, any business is very interested in Indonesia

because of the market potential. One of the other than the other one is, if it's really, it's really, for people, for something, convenience, health care, whatever it is. whatever it is. If healthcare is here to stay, and knowledge of people is here to stay, yeah, I think it's a very interesting time to be in genetics today.

Yeah, if I'm into a typical developing economy, the plonotoran for healthcare, that's 10-15% from PDB, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that not efficient. Oh, yeah efficient. If more efficient,

if more efficient, it's below 10%, even even to turn to 5%. Yeah. And, it's funny, or ironically, that's not efficient is in the negara and the major maju. Yes. Yeah, no say no-shavene but if we're not even in the UppDB, our $1.1 trillion, that's a 50 to $60 billion market.

Yeah, right? But we can make make sure that, in context of the $50 to $60 million, the people are safe. Yeah, right. And if you're not, and if you're a good, it's a good,

yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If we think about if we're just, if, if, if, COVID-19 testing just. Yeah. Why not, you know, there's the money, we're, we're now,

3.4%? Yeah. Not enough. UAE, 250% of population. Denmark, yeah, UAE, sorry, yeah, population is a small. I thought we're not saying names, but now.

Okay. Denmark. 230 percent. America, Singapore, and what like, 100 percent. We're still 3.4 percent. Just that alone. It's right in front of them. The money is there, and it's so clear.

That is just one thing that you have to do. Not just to test other, it's really, the solution, already, just in the front of the other, maybe mobilization, so. So, like,

that one of one of lab that we've seen, so, when we've got, we've got to help Rumsacet, Rumsakit, making lab in their home of their. So, we're trying, we have to build a lab, we have to build a lab, we're going to be where. We think, the most the next to the home of the sick.

Because if, if, if, a, person who can take care. So people don't die. Because at the end of the day, you're just preventing death. So we project, we're making lab lab in the room of the but always bentureance, it, no, there's not enough, it's really, it's really, it's really,

can be centers testing, but they don't have the money, not just enough manpower in there. So, you know, market size in healthcare almost means nothing. You know it's a big problem. Everybody knows it's a big problem. The question is,

how do you... From this, who's the pegang of what? From this, who's what, who's, who actually who have a stake 10% on the pharmaceutical companies? It's, you know, this little players, and then, they're like, they're peduling what each, and make one product that every single person will say yes. Then, that product that can't do.

Yeah, so interesting that, even with COVID-19, we also look, we also look at Singapore, how they respond to the pandemic. It's very different. In Indonesia, we can play as a very part as a person private, to help, help with the work with the public, but in Singapore, peg just not just, we can't even do testing.

Because government... Oh, because the government's... Oh, because the government's very... Exactly. ...beckyrear. Yeah. So, we'd, we'd make test pharmacogenetic in Singapore shut down every single project.

You all do for COVID-19 testing. That's it. No questions. And that type of kind of strong hand sometimes, yeah. It's something that's interesting to see, like, the difference like how much. So I think one of one of the ones, I'm learning from the time this pandemic

is if I see if I look at the company like, like, it's a winner in one market, very big market. if in healthcare, it's like it has at least exposure to another market. Because you never know, you know, opportunity and the health care or payer system in different markets will be able opportunity like what. So like if Singapore, there's a big bit of the grant, like, if Singapore is very strong in the grant ecosystem, similar with Australia, in the U.S., for Indonesia, very strong in the consumer market.

Thailand is very strong in, like, consumer and also, so, for the tourism market, so being able to kind of see that is also interesting, I guess. But, yeah, payment and science is very important. We can talk about vaccine. Okay. I don't know if I'm qualified. Not about it. But from the side of what, yeah,

what, yeah, the sudut of the end of the next to the future? In terms of... In terms of how quickly we can and, is there a other way to be able to be it to be able to or whatever, so, if I see, this supply constraints,

not demand constraints, yeah, the demand is all over. Supply constraints, this is quite And supply-in-it-to-d from the negara-nagra-maju. They have had capacity manufactur, and they also and will just and will just

and prioritizing the same for minimum one time to the time. And I'm not yet diplomacy vaccine this will be done with well, maybe,

Tionk. He's already to come to come to come here, but there's 20-20-juta people. And I don't know,

I don't know, this can't be long, the story here. Yeah. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think, yeah, I'm, like, COVID will in here, will, not know, but, yeah, it'll,

like, but, but, like, polio, like, long, right, right, can. Maybe, maybe, can be like that, I'm not know, like, the other, like, Is there not what can be peranked by Nalagenetics?

To be able to jembatine, ontas, in here that's still the here, the here, the recoupan. Yeah. The conversation that we're actually in this is from two sides. One is for sequencing the virus.

So, because, there's a couple of articles that who's been saying that the fact that vaccine that's now that's not effective again for some of the strain

new. So, they're must start to make different type of vaccine and give them to people who's to come to

the person. So, genetic sequencing is going to be very important in there too. And then, the other side the other thing

is, for even though, even though people have given, the, people, that people have to be tested,

or rate of testing, not be able to stop. That's the most we're taking with the home-sackees, is that, okay, people all think they're going to get vaccine, but they've got to be able to test again. We're, yeah, all, we're not going to get again. We're, now, and then,

can get again. Or mentally speaking, they are already, already, already, we've got the solution is here. So, we're not really aware again. That's what, like, that's not just to gala-can, where testing for PCR, or whatever testing,

that's just do PCR, right. It's to have to be situation where PCR is still being important. For example with employer, manufacturer, they're in fabric, so manage thousands of population. How can't the way,

we have, we have a few, just one-jute just, or just a 50,000 vaccine, but they have 100,000 employers. How can we manage population, where, okay, this is we've got testing, in the next month, we test again, we're based on their stratification of risk,

where who's who has to be vaccine, or who's who has to test first? That's not maybe it can be get-tahue if there's testing, not there's population genetics, which is something that we also care about, and not be making situations, if not if not even if you're not going to be

information genetic, information, clinical, or medical information. Now, this, if we're going to, if it'ser, moderna, or synovac, or, and astrodenica, efficacy is 90-and-percent, 90-skian, that's, kind of, trial or sample that they've

but it's not localized. And you're in a business of localizing. Yeah, the DNAs of... Now, what, the...theaqasiness, it's, not like what's been what's been about what's been about? Would've been ever been,

but... It's hard to... It's hard to... ...it's hard to... ...so, if, if, if, if, if, If we know, we know if we know if vaccine this is, if we're not very effective in the population Indonesia, what are we going to do about it?

Right. Or, like, popular opinion, maybe the version of this vaccine is more the efficacy. Or maybe, if that's... ...tornecatharer more than the efficacy it's, that, if I'm,

if I'm not for much more than for the other people will take a lot of data sets. Oh, that's a lot of data sets. So we'll have to make clinical trial, where follow these patients. So we're re-bond patients, we follow, then we'll see-upon-pacquence everybody. Then we'll see population,

okay, if we're, because, we have to have the other than we do with the US, we can make data from US, that genetic sequence in Indonesia, efficacy from each of the vaccine, then we're bading in, so how many permutations that is.

And then you need to be able to be convinced. So at the end of the day, that, after making the patient this, with vaccine is better, and ethnicity, then we can't even be that patient ethnicity this is the question is, is,

is, what this trial design is worth it. Because it's expensive. It's very expensive to do so. And if the government, or there's funder that that's important, we can do it in a heartbeat. We know how to do these things already. The question is if we're

if we're saying that, okay, there's more effective like this, if, if government, we're saying, okay, we'll buy vaccine this, just, like, Then the question is then the other other is supply issues and all that type of stuff. But I do believe if there's coordination to make decisions based on data, much, much better.

But it's unlikely, if it's actually if it's ifcassin, efficacy based on ethnicity, it will be more than the ethnicity is, logistical issues. Yeah, like that, like that, like that. Cold chain infrastructure. Yeah, it's just like that. need to minus 70, minus 20, minus 2, how to in the areas of the perpennel?

It's not gampang. Yeah, we're doa'n, we're doing. So, we're not going to doa. Yeah, okay. To the watchers out there. Okay, this application to the manusia, what you've done is what you've done.

If you're doing, if application to flora and fauna, Howna, how much? Genetics and flora and fauna, I think genetic sequencing in Indonesia, uh, uh, uh, have been doing for these types of things. Um, uh, because they, the basic biology of it is like breeding, so they're going to picket the best of the way that's the itself, so already genetics, right?

Right. So, genetic sequencing is a step above, where we're really want to know, what what's what's what kind of what's this, or this kind of this, or genies, this, can't-nays, not-nayr, long, that's... And how can't even if you can't... And how can't, like,

so, that's put-a-that-like-that-be-be-be-be-nour-be-n't-wust-nung-musim. Yeah. ...bis-a-oh-tare... ...it-a-pan-a-pan-a-boh-pon-boh-buttun-uner-buttun-un-unned. Unting, we're not a lot of a first-world problem. a first world problem. We're not ever the problem. That's not, because we're a tropical country,

but not, but sing-kong only, only two-kles-a-half, how can't even if you're not more than other, in Thailand, it's, like, so, how that, how that's the way?

It's, like, if, if, I'm not an agriculture background. I know, I'm just pushing. But can, can, you do, do, you can, Yeah, yeah, it's really.

Yeah, it's really. I think so. I think, um, uh, one of, uh, important to, to be,

to look at all the other people, people are, if they've, if they've chosen one type of crop that good, they also, can, different characteristics

that better, misalementally, more friendly. You know, which crop is, is, is, uh, actually can be more than it, yeah,

more than, and other than, so, as well, there's can't, Pactant, Pactivity technologies is really just selling information at the end of the day. What you do with the information is the powerful thing. If, if I, I, not know, if, if, if, there's this, got to get this, this,

what's what is what, we're going to this, we'll crisper this to the new vivid, or whatever, or brief, for that type of it, that's actually... It's not, not one butir-brass, but canang. Yeah. I'm just, I don't know. I'm just being imaginative.

Yeah, I think there is an episode on that. But it's... ...notic, how, how, yeah, right, not for manusia, but what other and other, too. Are you worried? Are you concerned that Indonesia,

maybe, not be joined revolution this? Now, now, yeah. But will we catch up in the next 10 to 20 years? I'm just like it's been saying this many times. It doesn't take 270 million people. It takes just a few to have the right conversation. Yeah.

Yeah. And it could start with you. Yeah, right? With your friends, scientists, and everything. And if, if it's going to micceu the conversation. And how, it's actually this is actually a percapable, like, you. Yeah, right, right.

Yeah. Because if you're going to be like, ah, that's, but it's actually relevant. Right. For the thing of the day-day, and how we can narrasiccan just. Right, yeah. I think that storytelling part is very important.

You are, one of the few storytellers, if you're one of the storytellers, to be transacicant to the world. And when people see that there are people in there, being beneficiary of the temuan your, that's, that's going to viral.

Yeah. One of the best tips I got... If there's a person, in the area in Indonesia, and what you've done what you've turned, it's all over 20 years 20-town to drink or a lot, it's not even to be a bit of a bit of a bit.

Because it's actually, or it's not efficacies. Yeah. ...berdasar-demean that's one story. Right. One success story. And a champion.

Now, there's not upay, upay to the plosok, to make doing DNA testing, and then, and the other, kind of... Yeah, this, the one Kusta, that was in Papua.

Okay. So we think that Dana, Dana, it's not even more than that's Dana, it's not really. That's Dena, that's not really, asal we know what we'll we'll we'll be it. Because it's really,

because approach that, okay, we'll just beaced so we can as much data as possible, and then we'll get as much data as possible, and then we'll need to dole-to-farmaceutical company, the business model is different. If we implement this, it's one of the best things that I've learned is the power of focusing.

Just one thing. We can, in panel, there are 159 of the drugs. But my first use case is just two drugs. One, Kusta, one is the tamoxifen. The three, we're with RSCM for psychiatry. then, three that just, if we can do those things. The... The...

...orang to be... ...they've got to be... ...adictsia, ...that's... ...that from the doctor from... ...that... ...theidiction... ...theidiccone...

...theidiccone... ...adiction? Sorry? Addiction? Addiction? Addiction to what? Like, you know, opioid... ...and stuff like that.

gang killers here, too, so how can... Are there can't gengien that can predicts? So, once there's success story, people will come to us for ideas to collaborate. So a lot of the collaborations that we're coming, actually, from doctors who look at the problems in the population of their,

then, then they'd come to Nala, they say, can't we work with them with. So it's so important that there's a storyteller, and there are people who can and that's why I'm so happy to be in this podcast. Good. Don't even like this, not be platformed.

Yeah. Yeah. This is just to be platformed, in any way to us, people can be able to hear and learn. Okay. Nala, to the end game.

What's your end game? We think that So, every person who come to a home of a sick, has information genetic, like they've had test of their, type of their type of their, like blood A, type B, type C, type A, type A, or type O.

This is same with genetic. So they've already what medications that they can take, and risk their risk for getting, what, or what about, or, you know, or, you know, what's what they've got to know. So, the room of the same, how we take care of the patient.

That's our dream. So we have some projects, where we're... Even, it's just on the chip, it's just in your phone. No, sure. Yeah. It could be someone else's chip.

Yeah, well, yeah, that's true. That's the cyber security is so important. Yeah, right. If genetic, it's really, really, to guard, really, really. So we're, yeah, it's a whole thing on its own. Yeah, aty-at-a-a-a-a-all, to open-source, can,

code or information like this, but I'm afraid that, it's not be hacked, too, can, be able to use, right, right, sorry, so, so, , go, how, go, five years. Five years,

to the time, we want, we have, we have a project that use case that. So we have worked with a home of Singapore, where everyone who want to test, the information is to simply in electronic health record.

Nanty if people who want to give or a pain or a pain or a pain of it, they're warning. Oh, don't, this patient is there effect on this. So, doctor, no way to think. Their split-second decision changed to another drug. No issue. No fuss.

That's our goal. I think in the five years to the time, we're going to implementations in at least Southeast Asia, and then branch out to risk prediction. So, we can't even if we can prevent one of the other, the effect of the opat, why we can't prevent other things? And that's one of use case is for breast cancer.

So we can't know stratification of population there are high risk, intermediate, low risk. breast cancer, high risk, we're surumomogram, one-kly a year. The intermediate risk, two times a year, two-tawn, and then, the low-risk, one-three-tourn, for example. So, to look at this type of intervention,

we're also very very much with Parkinson's disease. So personally speaking, very passionate about Parkinson's. My dad, my father, my father, so how we can't even Parkinson's. So how we can check, people are at high risk, then we can intervene early. Because there are some intervention early,

while even there's clinical trial many people who want to look what we can see what we can for patients who can't Parkinson's disease to the so that's going to be from the patient can not just for patients, but also scientific community in general. So we're doing that type of projects,

of projects. And, and, I'm going to time in the time to come these projects, there's volume numbers in my head, you know, these things. But that's how we measure our impact, is that how many lives do we touch,

how many hospitals do we work with? What are your targets? How many lives will you be able to touch? Oh, I feel like I'm shooting myself in the foot. Okay. You're going to have to put that on a business plan when you fundraise next. Well, that's going to happen really soon, by the way, very nervous. 100,000 in about three years.

That's my... That's too little. That's little, but the data is powerful. The type of data that we get from that 100,000 has to be... Because if, if we've got clinical data, patient behavior and genetics data, we've got together, we've got together,

we've got to say, we already have the data, we can show you that if you do our test, we can save you money. What is stopping you from paying this test? So the moment that we do that, the conversations. Pramie will be able to. Yeah. Assuransi, or the company hasuransi hasuransi have

the importance here. Yeah. So I'm going to do-on a little, you've ever heard of neural link, right? Yes. Now, it's, can, intie-being from Alzheimer, dementia, possibly Parkinson. Yes. How that?

Oh, can it? Yeah, the intingia, it's re-electrification neuron our body, and the body our body-facizcification, neuron. Reaction chemia, which is what you're doing, in terms of biology or biochemistry. I think, I'm not an expert in this. Neither am I.

I'm the one asking the questions. That should be an disclaimer in the beginning of the video, yeah. But this is just real. Yeah, I think so. I think, I guess for, I think it's cool. I think it's such a new technology. So, maybe with any new technology, I think the most exciting part is to see

technology this is, it's actually the most good for use case what? So if, if, if, neural, I've heard, or, from reading from from Elon Musk, he said, we can record memory. As good as a camera. That's one of the first use case. Is that the most powerful use case compared to solving, I don't know.

No, I like the re-electrification of the neurons. Yes, exactly. Depends on that company and how to where, and hopefully it's the electrification of neurons. And the brain, I'm at GIS, one of the University of Singapore, I work with Alfred PhD. He,

the task is to make brain cells in Petridesh. So, that project my project is to make mini-brains, so we can learn. And I think we, at that, it was, how many years ago, three, four, four, four, four, five years, we still not know, even we've even we've done, in the neuron in

in the D.3D.E.C., characterization of what any of what we're at still at that stage, where we're at that stage, where we're not that's a dopaminergic neuron, is this or something else? The characterization is still unsure, like, we're still unsure, like, this type of that type.

So, if, this type of disease or neural link can and really, really, can pinpoint where that has to electrocute, so effect it's amazing. But it takes some basic science to get there. Absolutely. I think. Still, much,

but if, the rationality is well-defined. And that, if, if, if, for the penithingingan that's great and for the good and mulia. And I, question is,

Is it going to disrupts, what you're doing what you're doing as disrupting, or more compliment? Maybe in healthcare, disruption is it's very much because if you, disruption implies something changes very quickly. I think in healthcare, nothing changes very quickly. I think it will, it will disrupt, but over 50 years,

Maybe it will change over time. But I don't think it will disrupt in a very traditional sense. It will disrupt for a very particular use case, which if, if, if, if, if, the people just want to one use case, and they focus really to be, it will be, that will be it in general, or maybe,

generic sequencing in general, or genetic testing, maybe not because application in healthcare is very wide, so, I'm quite, so I'm quite. I'm quite optimistic, where, for use case that specific, it's two sudut pandang

that will be more embour with better, not can't tabracken. I'm going to be that. And, t'n't'n't be cala, with better, with the part, and penelitian, too. Yeah, right. Yeah.

Yeah. where, where, now, where, penelitian, it's not just only, not just one just one just. So, just genetic data just, like, with Prof. Herra, genetic data, Indonesia, many, but,

if this is this is to be used to predict of the healthan? To do that, we have to have medical data. That, that's just the also it's also a lot of the company, if any, as anyone trying to make that decision, not we can, like in NeuroLink, maybe they're very good at the technology,

but also, well, side effects are what is the biological side of things? So, the joint disciplinary research, that's very interesting. Okay, this is a bit utopian. If, if you're impamely with CRISPR, that we can be able to beauching manusia. The human who's the human. The most extreme, how to the way our our eyes are just the blue?

That's designer humans. We're not there. We don't want to go there. But how we're going to be more safe? Yes. And then, what you're doing can,

can, you can, for the paymatan. Because it's more matching, between manusia with and if you're not even it's not even if you're not being utopian, right?

How fast do you think we can get there? If I'm in the country, in the country in majeu, in 10 years. Based on what I read, which could be wrong, but, and it's probably will be different, will be impact to the percapaping our day. We don't need to be 10 years from today. If I'm in my own, two years to be able,

we're going to be, we're going to be able. At least to be able to be cacob. Yeah, right? And then, we just, just to make just, if we're going to act, if or not? If we're going to do-mone-as-a-oh, but we'll be kind of get-tingal.

But if we're not to do-manis and we're action, can be different. Inflexion, if I'm not for Indonesia. And that's for the importance of the of the future of our, generation of the rest of it. That's too. That's too

that's like, many conversations this because there's people who, who, do not stay in US for advanced technology, they're now

all back to Indonesia to to make technologies technology, technology this is a very good trend. I think, it's like it's actually one to two years the next year it is truly because

because of the people who have seen what the future can be. And then they try to implement, it will be doing, you know, your big tech companies, now, it's already, many people like I, like, people like I, who, companies, companies,

that, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, we're not, we're getting down, now. or we will never get there. And I think conversation this is also many people who are many partners that we look like the companies, like, I'm not even though,

I'm not even though, there's insurance company in Indonesia who may buying test our time, but they're already, so they may not have all the data at hand, but they're not having technology and making decisions based on data that is very important. So they're going to invest to that first,

So if, if, if, if, if, if, as a partner, Nalalgenetics in Indonesia, there's one thing that we can help do is always, like, teach on what our data set can do, what decision making, based data, it can be able to be it's like what, so if, if, people, or people, or people,

there are people, but, the people, that, but, of data, it's, it's, So I agree absolutely. So things will happen so quickly, because the rate of decision-making with data is just so normal, even though,

it was a money-making business, they're not going to try again, but now everything needs to be data-driven. It's very exciting. This columb is a big, in Indonesia, 270-juta manucia, and growing, and consumptive, and we all have to

We have to our key-entings for we can be more more safe, and for we're more sechartra. This is many of the people in the out who are backed, like you, and then, and then, back, too. The people who are in the out, and can be able to be able to beware, it's, and will be made by that the colam, this, this,

is this, and they're back. Now, if that, in padu, With talenta from out of the world that not asmestin the people of Indonesia who's the prospect or the opportunity to make make sure that's the only the key is we have to be inundjew can't get a great to come to talenta,

the best. Like what's what's done by America, Srikat, Singapore, and other, yeah, right. If, if, when I was in Singapore, my PI, principal investigator, he always want to try PhD PhD who are pint-pinter, kind to Singapore, how much the way they're

they're trying? They said, even in Singapore, if I'm saying, if I have to take scientists, that's the biggest reason why they go to Singapore is because their family has a Singaporean ties. So, I think it's so interesting that at the end of the day, it's all about the person making the decision,

one person at a time making that decision to to invest in Indonesia. Either it's because of a personal interest or something like that. But what's interesting like, I think infrastructure in Indonesia also has been because there's start-up

that's starting that, okay, government not going to give access this, I'll do my own. I'll do my own, the entrepreneurial spirit here in Indonesia is unmatched. The to-do-do-al-euro-e

attitude's like, yeah, just go, like, let's just go, I love it. One of my friends actually created this, the company named Neliti, where, Doolot, we... Neliti. Wow. I love it.

Yeah, you should... You could speak to the guy. So, he... ...whole. But, he, he, he, past research in Indonesia, he, he, he's, oh, why, in Indonesia,

I'm going to access scientific paper just not just, so I have to pay $700,000, $300,000 per kall, no, no, there's research, you have to read tens and dozens of papers. So, how can we make open access journals to more and more people? So, I'm so I'm so much about this way we're making how we're making access to infrastructure for scientific publications, just for basic scientists, and how we're doing end up to end upendia can,

the find out of Indonesia so, be indexed with Google Scholar, be indexed with old metrics. You know, all these, like, you can be able to do nilite does. It's just to index library, make digital libraries for... You know, it sounds boring,

but you have no idea how useful that is. Oh, my goodness. The level of exchange, just putting it on Google, it's just so powerful. And, and like idea, you never know where an idea comes from. Right.

Right. It's a lot. It's a lot. It's just like kail, then the nalayan and the naliencing will come. A lot of investors are coming. I'm not worried about that. Jujure, because liquidity is still very rampant.

Liquidity, in the world, —-cuitity in the world, — it's not an issue, is it. Yeah. And, how, there's one. How there's one storyteller, two storytellers, three storytellers who can be communicates with the international, and narrations are great-a-great.

This, we need more safe, we need more sechre. What, that? Financial inclusion, like, genetics, like, whatever. Yeah, right? We have to have to have an under-are-are-on-Intyreta-one

on other, or be able to be able to back, but people non-Indonnesia, who's also, who want to help. And we have, we have, we have hospitable. Yeah, that's right. Because if there are a bit of a lot of, understanding that's too local,

like, well, that's not the Indonesian way. It's not the Indonesian way. We're just, I also, I think, that's another episode. That's a long conversation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But what is the Indonesian way?

Can't really? Why? The Indonesian way is what needs to be. Not what has been. Exactly. Yeah, right? That's kind of, we have forward-looking. Right.

Don't too look at kacaspion just. Absolutely. Yeah. We've got to go-git, Levy. Any last few words? Um, I think, what would I say? What would I say?

I guess if genetics, I think if, if genetics, I think if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, about people who are not in the genetics, the hope for Indonesia is, people are more, to look more about the truth, they care more about why information this is important for them.

So, if, if, there, I, say, I'm very optimistic, for Indonesia. I'm with you. I'm with you. I promise you, we'll make with with Prof. Herra. And I'll also invite Charlene, I think the three of you will have a blast.

And I'll just be a bystander. I'm sure we'll include you in with all your CRISPR views and what Indonesia can bring. I'm not going to be marra maybe. Well, I think it's like I do marra in. Ah, oh, no, no, but that's so fun. Okay.

Yeah, of course. TEMAN, that's Levy, founder of Nala Genetics. Thank you. This is En-Genex. This is Endgame.