Endgame with Gita Wirjawan - Marina Mahathir: In Defiance of Status Quo

Episode Date: August 24, 2022

When your father is the man who has been the most synonymous with the country's progress over the last four decades, can you still have a voice of your own?  Marina Mahathir talks about her latest book and her AIDS activism; chimes in on LGBT rights, the growing involvement of religions in politics, and cancel culture. #Endgame #GitaWirjawan #MarinaMahathir --------------------------  Pre-Order the Endgame show official merchandise: https://wa.me/628119182045 Join the next generation of progressive Southeast Asian policy leaders: admissions.sgpp.ac.id [e-mail] https://wa.me/628111522504 Playlist episode "Endgame" lainnya: https://endgame.id/season2 https://endgame.id/season1 https://endgame.id/thetake -------------------------

I mean I always say that there are no sensitive subjects. There's just a sensitive way of approaching it. If your rights are denied, violated, neglected, it affects you in so many ways, including in your health. And you cannot, in public health, everyone is equal because everyone's a human being. So you can't differentiate between citizens, non-citizens, migrants, refugees. They're all the same. And that was a mistake that we saw so many governments make.

This is NG. Hello, Hello, we're here we're coming Marina Mahatir, a person, columnist, and activist. Marina, thank you so much. We're coming on to our show.

Thank you for having me. And, you know, before we talk about some of the more deep stuff, let's hear from you how you grew up. you grew up, where you were born and how you ended up, you know, doing what you're doing right now? Well, I grew up in a small town. I grew up in Alosta up north in the state of Kedah, which is my father's hometown. And we had a very simple, I guess, middle-class life there. My parents were both doctors. My dad was in private practice. He set up the first Malay-owned clinic there, Mahaklinic. And my mom was in government service. She was in the hospital, and then later on

went into public health. And we grew up in government quarters in a nice little enclave with a big garden and neighbors of all civil servants. And it was an idyllic childhood in many, many ways. I went to a convent school, which taught in English. And it was very rare for Malay parents to send their daughters to a convent school because of the fear of being converted. But it's always been a good school. very high standards.

And, you know, you can spot common girls everywhere because of the way we speak. You know, English is usually good and very disciplined and that sort of thing. So, yeah, so I was there until I was about 15, until I went off to boarding school in Negri-Sumilan, and all girls boarding school, a very elite one called Tungu Kursha College.

supposedly for smart girls so I'm not sure how I got in there and then after that went off to England to do my A-Levels and university before we get to your education stuff your mom was a special

kind of doctor she became the second female doctor that's right she's the second Malay woman doctor in the country pretty amazing very amazing yeah I mean, after the war, you know, my parents' education was delayed a bit because of the war.

So they entered university in their 20s in Singapore. That's where they met. And they did medicine. And my mom was kind of interesting because she was one of only, I think, three women or something in the class. And the fact that her parents let her go. all the way to Singapore, to study medicine, was quite something. She's the youngest daughter out of three daughters.

It's pretty daring. Yeah, very, very. But she had decided early on that she wanted to be a doctor. If she couldn't be a journalist, she wanted to be a doctor. Really? So she would have wanted to be a journalist? Yeah, she loves to write. Okay, that's where you got it. All my parents love to write.

But then she saw her mom had been ill. And so she thought, no, I think I want to be someone who helps people and went off to do medicine, which is lucky for us, right? Because that's where she met dad. And, you know, medicine is... Lucky her or lucky him? Well, both ways. Okay. And, you know, medicine is a six-year course.

Right. And she failed her first year and had to repeat it and failed her. last year and I had to repeat it. So my mom is that sort of, you know, very diligent, patient, hardworking person. You know, once she set herself on the course, you'll do her best until she gets it, regardless of how long it takes.

Who would have been a bigger influence on you, mom or dad? It's hard to say because my dad obviously is, quite a dominant personality in the family, especially, you know, he went into politics and started to become known and things like that. But my mom was always there, and she's very steady, influence, although she was very naggy.

And so I thought she was evil. When we were young, you know, she'd go after us if we didn't do our homework or we didn't study for exams. So I remember that I would never tell her that the school exams were coming up until the eve of them. Because whatever it was, I needed her best wishes for it. So I wouldn't tell her so that she wouldn't push me to study, but I needed her to say good luck. So yeah, that was the way she was.

But I must say that she got so fed up with me not doing so well in school, primary school, you know, standard one first year, that she decided to take matters in hand and sit me down and tutor me on all the subjects. And I'd cry and cry and thought she was cruel and everything. Cry, cry, cry, cry. And then when the results came out, I came out first in class. So she polished my brain, you know. Wow, done.

Well done. Now, you know, both were doctors, our doctors. None of the kids. No. You know, it's pretty eerie because my dad was a doctor. Ah, yeah. None of the kids wanted to be a doctor. It's a bit similar, but I want to hear your side of this story. Well, my parents were pretty liberal in that they let us do what we wanted. All they wanted was for us to finish school, which means until the end, of university. After that, you can do what you want. Right. I remember there was a singer, singer, actress who came from our hometown.

And when she first emerged, all the biographies said that she had finished university. And my dad said, there you are. She finished university, and after that she can do what she wants. And that was, you know, the philosophy in our house. And so none of us really exhibited any interest in one to do medicine, you know, especially when it was, I don't know, actually. We were never pushed and we, I don't know, there wasn't just wasn't an interest in it, I guess.

Was it the number of hours that they dedicated themselves to? The number of years of study and things like that. And the fact that they just, you know, weren't pushing us to do it. And so in the end, we all did different things, right? But I must say that my mom has occasionally like side whenever she talks about her friends, her former classmates with doctor and doctor, and then all their five kids are doctors. You know, it's like, you know, we need variety in the conversation. That was my excuse anyway.

But in the end, I came closest to it when I was doing my AIDS. because I had to talk to doctors. I had to understand medicine and everything. Yeah. I know you talked about that in your book and let's go there later, but I want to peel the on in a little bit more on how you grew up, right? You spent some time in California,

then you went to university in the UK. Was that biodezine to open your mind up as widely as possible? I think so, definitely. Okay. In 1971, we hosted an American student under this exchange program, American Field Service program. We hosted her for a summer in our house in Alostar. And she was from California.

And we became very close. We're still friends to this day. And our parents became friends. And they found that they had a lot in common. So I think in that relationship, in that conversation, my parents decided that it'll be a good idea to do our own private exchange sort of thing and send me off to stay with them. Right.

And so that was deliberate. I mean, whoever thinks of that, you know, sending a 16-year-old girl from Alosah all the way to California. I mean, it was like sending someone to the moon, right? But it was, I think, deliberate for me to see more of the world. Although my dad set me down before I went and, you know, said, we are like this, and they are like that, and please remember your roots and da-da-da, you know, that usual talk. And I went, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then I went off for three months and had a great time. And when I came back, my dad says that I totally changed. And now he says he regrets it. He shouldn't have sent me because I became this, you know, talky, talk back, little girl, you know, what do you expect? You really can't expect to send a child off and have it have no impact on her. But it's pretty gut-seal him in your mom too. Yes, yes, definitely.

to send you as you being a daughter, right? Yeah, but my parents believe in travel. I mean, they went off on a big European trip when we were little. Not to mention the Antarctica. Not to mention Antarctica. Yeah, Antarctica later, yes. That was daring. Yeah, and he's been to so many countries.

And he just loves it. He loves seeing the world, seeing the way other people. people live and, you know, taking notes, his little notebook, all these things, you know, whether it's nice lampos or nice food, whatever, you know. So, yeah, so yeah, it was deliberate. And then later on to go to the UK to study, my brother had gone, my younger brother had gone before us. On a scholarship

because the government at that time was sending a lot of Malaysian students to the UK, mostly to do A-levels, but they wanted to experiment with O-levels. And for O-levels, because they are younger,

they can't be left on their own, they had to go to a boarding school. So they I guess they tested a lot of boys at the time, I think, around the country and selected four who all came from the same school and same class. And one of them was my brother.

And when they got offered, my dad said no. Because he didn't believe that we should take scholarships from the government. It should go to people who needed it more. I think it was a matter of pride to him. This would have been after your dad joined politics or before? Yeah, this would have been like the early 70s. Okay. He just joined politics.

No, actually. Well, he took a break. Yeah, yeah. That was when he was, you know, out in... He was in hibernation for three years. Yes, yes. Kind of hibernation, yeah. So he didn't want it.

My brother cried and crying, crying, crying, crying, and then finally. Ah, okay, got it. My dad agreed. Although I'm always suspicious whether he'd really agreed or he worked out a deal like, okay, you pretend you're giving him the scholarship, but it's actually from me, you know, something like that. So off my brother went, and I went later to do my A-levels, and that was partly because again, you know, we were sending a lot of students, and a lot of my friends were all going

off, Australia, UK, everywhere. And I guess he thought, oh, I don't want to have another weepy child at home. And I'll send her off. And he did everything. He found my school from a magazine ad. You know, and then sent me off. And then that was it. So, yeah.

It turned out okay. I think so. He might have still some reservations, but, yeah, I think so. What got you hooked with writing? I've always, always written. It's my favorite subject was English in school, and I always did best in that. I particularly love the essay writing parts of it,

and I used to write all sorts of little stories and things like that. So it's always been something I did, but never thought of making something big out of it. To me, it was like eating, you know, because it was just writing. And then the thing was that I went into the science stream. You know, we get divided into arts and science. And I went into the science stream because I qualified,

and it was seen as more prestigious. And that's how I got into the boarding school. And so that side of me got kind of neglected. So, you know, I really felt it when I went later on to the UK because I had very little idea of literature or anything because I never did it. And so I guess that side of me got dampened for quite a while. I mean, I still wrote, but I was writing nonfiction.

So the most... The more literary side of me was never, never developed for years, which is why I always feel a bit shy when I'm talking to real writers and things, you know, because I feel like I'm not really off the same ilk and all that. But I always wanted to get back to it, and I always, always, you know, kept talking about, I want to go and do a writing course and this and that. And finally my husband got fed up and said,

okay, for your birthday, your 60th birthday, I'll pay for you to go and do a course. And he meant a month or three months. I know, I know, man. And I signed up for a one-year master's. I know. That's amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I got your master's in the 60s.

Yes, yes, and I'm graduating It's inspirational It's a lot of people out there Never to give up, right? Yeah, exactly But then I have these parents You know, who are constantly learning, right? My mom took up French

In her, was it 70s or 70s? No kidding. Because at that time, I was going to have a French mother-in-law who didn't speak English. So my mom thought, well, you know, how do I speak to her? So she took, and as always, she took it very seriously and took exams and everything and had a graduation ceremony.

She fluent now? I wouldn't say so. But she gets shy. She's okay. She used to, her eyes are not good now, but when they were better, she used to. message me in French and then I'd have to reply in French and my written French is really terrible so she plays the piano too she plays the piano she plays the violin the violin she took up

in her 80s and and the other day she played in a concert with a 97 piece orchestra oh my gosh I don't know I really does that put pressure on you or more inspiration I guess, I don't know. It is inspiring. I mean, I admire most of all her courage. Yeah. You know, it takes a lot of courage to start. I mean, she gets nervous as anything.

And it's not perfect. I mean, it does get a bit squeaky. But, I mean, she's going to be 96, you know? Who does that? Who does that? Yeah. Okay, I want to deep dive into your writing experience as a columnist, right? And I want to try to weave that into your book, The Apple and the Tree, right?

Yeah. Talk about that. I mean, when you were a columnist, I know you've shared your views on this, for the most part, your dad was running the country. Yeah. How tough was it to stay independent? independent? Not really tough. I wrote the column for the star every two weeks and they gave me carte blanche. I could write about anything and so I did whatever I thought about whatever was happening women's rights or health or anything and I didn't I didn't have in my head what would

that thing? Because I think that would stop me from truly saying what I wanted to say. I have more trouble from my editors than anyone because the star is owned by a political party that was in the government and they are a bit more scared. And I said, you know, it's up to you, But I must say that in all the years, and I wrote the column for almost 30 years, I think, or still 30 years, they have censored me very, very few times. So most of the time they just let me do what I wanted. But I think I know how to write in a way that doesn't, I mean, treads of the line. I think I get my point across.

But I think, I mean, I always say that there are no sensitive subjects. There's just a sensitive way of approaching it. So that's the way I write. And that's kind of worked. And people read. I mean, I started off, of course, in the pre-internet age. Which helps. Which helps a great deal.

Absolutely. And I would get one or two, you know, angry letters. but most of the time I'd be walking around, people come up to me and said, you know, I love that column that totally spoke to me, it resonated with me and all that. And I didn't write it to put across the view of, you know, a lot of people. I just put across mine. And if it happened to resonate with people, that's my good luck, I think. Yeah. Was there ever a sentence or a word that made it difficult for you to have a conversation with your mom and dad?

Well, actually... Or even a paragraph. Well, actually, you know, people are always asking me, what is your dad thing? What is your dad thing? And how can you say that? It's so different, you know, from what the government is doing. Number one, I never, never attacked him personally. I mean, he's the government.

So if I criticize, I... the government. So it's the whole of government. Number two, I realized when I was doing my first book, and my publisher had this idea, like, why didn't you get your dad to do the foreword? Mostly to sell the book, right? Anything with his name sells, anything with his face sells.

And so I asked him, he said, okay, but can you send me some samples of your columns so I know what you're writing? And I like, like, what? You don't read me? So, yeah, that's when I realized, no, he hasn't been reading me. Which helps in a way, but it could have been better if he did, right? Yeah, because sometimes people go and tell him.

Yeah. Marina said, this, this, this. That's very bad. Right. And he takes it from there. It's secondhand. And he takes it from there. Amrina did this, this, this, you know.

And then he gets annoyed with me for that. And I said, read it, you know. And the one time I, he did get concerned was when I talked about a politician, a major politician who had been a accused of, well, I think she was underage, so it might be statutory rape of this young girl. And it had become a big cause a scandal. And my stand was very clear, you know, I mean, she's underage, therefore the law says it's statutory rape.

That's it. know, what are you doing with this young girl? This is way before me too, right? You know, giving her expensive presents and things like that. But of course, he was in the same party as my dad. And so this became a big thing, and everyone thought, wow, you know, Marina is standing against her dad. And then there was an election campaign, and the opposition went around.

with my column and say, even Marina says this. And there was a court case with an opposition politician, and they said, oh, they're going to call me as a witness because of my column. I was so annoyed, you know? So the judge had said to him, so where is she? So I had to go all the way down there,

I was in Malacca and testify about my column, you know? Like who wrote the headline? me the editor did you know that sort of thing so that that became a big thing I mean the guy eventually I think was found there was some something I think that I don't know I can't remember now but he I think he legally got caught away with it but then his reputation was totally tarnished completely you know and and so yeah Yeah. So this was sort of like a, you were the voice of conscience, right?

Try to be. To the country, to the government and whatever. I would think of this as perhaps either the start or the middle of your journey with respect to activism. Yeah. And I want to talk to you about your involvement with the AIDS Foundation. Because you're so immersed with it for a long time. You started out really not understanding much about AIDS, HIV, and how to run an NGO.

And you ended up being the voice that basically was exemplary for many NGOs. I would argue around the world. Talk about that. Well, you know, that activism really was not something that I had planned on. I'd never woke up one day and thought, I'm going to take up this course or that. I was always interested in helping out. I'd done a lot of fundraising for various charities and supported, you know, women's courses, particularly, that sort of thing.

but never, never thought of joining any organization. I was really a one-man band, basically. But my efforts had been noticed by people. So one day I got invited to join the AIDS Foundation, principally to help raise money. Because they thought they needed someone high profile, plus the daughter, the PM, you know, and I guess they thought,

Just my name there will Maharm-Khan the whole thing, as we like to say here. Mimulia-khan. Yeah. Mouroum-khan, make it smell nicer. And that's other thing. So I guess that's where I'm like my mom in many ways that when I take up something, I take it seriously.

So I went for this first meeting and they made me chair. And I was shocked. I had never chaired anything. anything ever. But I thought, okay, this is what I'm supposed to do. There must be. And I had been aware of AIDS because I had lost friends. I was aware of people who had died of HIV at the time. And I thought, okay, you know, let me let me try. And so I went in and I had so much to learn, so much to learn. I mean, there I was pretty sheltered person, right? daughter, the prime minister, this very comfortable upbringing.

And suddenly you found myself with groups of people that I had never encountered before. Drug users, actual drug users, sex workers, trans people, all sorts of things, you know. And all sorts of people. And then I realized I thought, okay, fundraising. I'm used to fundraising. I should be able to do this. And then I found it was difficult because people didn't understand what AIDS was.

All they could think of is like, oh, these people, why should we help these people? And I realized I had to be more convincing. I had to be more persuasive. And to do that, I have to learn. And so I started talking to the people who could help me, whether they were doctors or NGO workers, but most of all, the people most affected, the people on the street, the drug users, you know, what was it that made you

vulnerable to this disease? And that's how I learned. And then I realized, well, they can't talk for themselves. It's so difficult. And I have to do it for them until they're ready. At the same time, I'm going to push them to do it themselves because it has to come from them, not from me. I'm just a conduit. And that's how it went. And I always say I'm internally grateful to AIDS because I grew so much as a person in those 12 years.

I had so much exposure to the realities of the world, really. the inequalities particularly, all these different groups of people, I got to travel the world, I got to better my Malay, because I had to communicate. The important thing was to communicate. And if I had to do in English, I do in English, I had to do it in Malay, I had to do it in Malay. The grassroots, a lot of them were involved. Yes, absolutely, you know, they don't understand English, they don't understand what is, a quiet immune deficiency syndrome. So I had to pick up the vocabulary and train myself.

And I think by the end, I could quite confidently speak, you know, off the cuff in Malay and in English if I needed to. So, yeah, that's how it went. And mostly I became aware of. human rights and how important that was and how if your rights are denied, violated, neglected, it affects you in so many ways, including in your health. I mean, the most influential person for me was this guy called Dr. Jonathan Mann, who I heard speak in an AIDS conference who made the link between health and human rights.

That basically your health is affected by how much. much your rights are respected, right? And he was my hero and everything, and I always dreamed of, he was at Harvard, actually, at the School of Health and Human Rights. And I wanted to go and sit at his feet and study with him and all that. And I met him once in Geneva

at an international AIDS conference, and I didn't get to really speak to him. and we were on the same panel, but we were at a dinner with so many people, and I thought, I have time. Now that he knows my face, you know, I'll contact him and we'll talk another time. That was in July, and in September,

he was in the Swiss Air Flight that crashed, going from New York to Geneva, him and his wife. Ouch. And I thought, oh my gosh, you know. Why does this happen? Why does this happen to people who are doing good? Yeah. You know?

And that really taught me about making use of time, making use of opportunities. You know, I think of myself as lazy. I'm a big procrastinator. I think of myself as that. And then I learned that you really can't. You really have to use your time well and not delay anything, because you never know. You just never know. You know, one would argue that the activism with regards to AIDS around the world has led to some of the really fastest advances in medicine.

Yes, totally. You've talked about this also. Yes. And you sort of like alluded to how we've been able to find vaccines for COVID much more quickly than one or anybody would have ever imagined. Yes. Right? So I would argue that activism requires guts in commitment and political ownership taking,

which would make it, you know, a lot more holistic in terms of having the necessary impact on medicinal advances or advancements. You know, for AIDS, that was the treatment action campaign where they were trying to get access to treatment for people living in the developing world because these treatments were so expensive that was in South Africa. And over here too, we decided that it's ridiculous

for anyone to pay $2,000 a month for a life-saving medicine. And that's where I had to learn about the WTO. I never, never expected. Me too, I had to learn. So I have to learn about trade agreements because there's this clause there about life-saving medicine

that you can break patterns just for life-saving medicine. So we started to read up on that, started talking on that. We were ahead of the government. The government had no idea because they were working in silence. They're thinking of computer chips and things like that, but not medicines.

And so we had to educate the Ministry of Health, like you've got to do this. You broke down the walls. Yeah, and we said that just threatened to bring in the generics and things like that and the pharmaceuticals will get nervous. And that's exactly what happened. Because then they lowered the price. We showed that they could do it if they wanted to. And we also pushed for an aid session at the ASEAN summit for all the heads of government of the ASEAN countries

to talk about access to medicine. I mean, that's 500 million people you're talking about. Who could ignore that? And so that happened, I think, one Assyan summit. in Brunei. But you always need civil society to push for these things. Because government doesn't necessarily know about these things that are happening on the ground. So, yeah, you just have.

And the vaccines, I remember the International AIDS Vaccine Initiative, IRV, began during the AIDS time. Right. And they were working on AIDS vaccine. And then because of COVID, it all got diverted to COVID vaccines. I mean, COVID owes so much to the AIDS, AIDS activism, not just about vaccines. Actually, if they had asked us, you know, what to do,

we would have told them that when there is an epidemic, the first people you have to think of are the poorest, The ones who would not have... The most vulnerable. The most vulnerable, the ones who would not have access to the information. Those are the people you have to think about first. Because the rest will get it. Those ones won't.

And you cannot, in public health, everyone is equal because everyone's a human being. So you can't differentiate between citizens, non-citizens, migrants, refugees. They're all the same. Yeah. Yeah, and that was a mistake that we saw so many governments make. Yeah. Let me stretch the rubber band a little bit on, or with respect to activism on other dimensions, right? You've passionately talked about Muslim women.

And we conversed earlier about treatment towards LGBT. and all that, right? How movies are being overly censored, right? Which have those kinds of contents. There's two sides of the argument here, right? I want to hear your views on these. Yeah. Well, you know, because I worked in HIV

and because I think of the most vulnerable, the most marginalized as my community, the people that I'm performing a service for. It's just not possible to differentiate to say, this group gets treatment, this group doesn't get treatment, you know, just because of lifestyle or sexuality and all that. We have to treat everyone equal.

That's a public health imperative, right? And so I got to know a lot of different people, including those from the LGBT, community and it's very interesting you know and I and some of my colleagues from other NGOs have said the same thing at first you're hyper aware of that particular identity of that person in front of you whether they are a drug user or a gay man or lesbian woman or trans or HIV positive person you're hyper aware of it but as you continue to talk, all that goes away and it becomes, you know, you realize that actually

they're just another human being with all sorts of the same concerns. And that falls away, you know, that particular identity. And you realize that everybody has all sorts of different identities working at the same time. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, Malay Muslim woman, I'm a daughter, I'm a wife, I'm a mother, I'm an activist, I'm a writer, I'm so many things, right? How can you just say I'm one thing? Same with all of them. So, and then I realized that it's just a matter of getting to know people, you know, I think in in Malaysia we have this saying, not-kennel, then you probably have the same.

So, you know, a lot of the anti-LGB rhetoric and all that comes from people who really don't know. Anyone, it's a lot of, it's like racism, right? You're most racist about people you don't know, actually. Right? You make exceptions for your friends. Presupposition or predisposition.

Exactly. biases and prejudices. And that kind of cured me of any prejudice I might have. I treat everyone as human beings. But I do realize there are lots of barriers for them to be seen as human beings. Some of it is legal. Some of it is just not even cultural. Some of it is just sort of society's perceptions, you know.

I mean, the LGBT community has been with us thousands of years. And actually, we used to be much more open about them, particularly about trans people. I mean, you know, I used to see even in kampong's, you know, weddings, a makeup person is always a trans person or something like that, right? No big deal. But this is up to the I feel like it's related to politics, actually. And it's also a Western thing that I think we've brought in, we've imported.

So I'm not afraid to speak up. I don't say that, oh, everyone should be LGBT. I think it's a choice. No, I think that's not a choice. That's not the message. That's not a message. Yeah, I mean, really, aren't there also somebody's son, daughter, friend, and also voters.

Nobody's saying that you can't vote because you're LGBT, they still want your vote. So treat them like everyone else, why not, you know? I'm going to stretch it a little bit more. I mean, in recent times, we've seen, you know, this wokeness, right? Yeah. And sort of like the narrative. Yeah. And I'm a little concerned with how this has taken us to, I think, a bit too much of the cancel culture.

Yeah. Right? Yeah. I think it boils down to being able or are being able to educate. Where do we draw the line? Yeah. We have to be open-minded. Yes.

But we can't take it too far down the line. Yeah. Right? To the point where we're actually killing it. Right? Yeah. At the other end. Yeah.

And that has happened to people that I've great admiration for. Yeah. Who have been susceptible to the canceled culture. Yeah. And that to me is a mockery. Yeah. I was actually going to write a column about, this a couple weeks ago and then something else happened and decided to change the subject.

But on the one hand, I'm very happy that a lot of young people are woke in the sense that they're aware of what's happening in the world. You know, they know about discriminations. They know about climate change. they know about, you know, anti-democracy and that sort of thing. So I'm glad for that. I mean, I have two daughters

who are in that age group where they're very aware. But at the same time, I also see this cancel culture thing. And I find it, one, it's also generational. Because I think it's the woke young that seems to want to cancel, usually people who are older than them, you know, that's okay boomer sort of thing.

And like my fellow NGO activists of my contemporaries also say, you know we're this close to being canceled, because at any time we might just use the wrong language or something, you know, and boom, that would be it. And I think that's wrong. And the column I was going to write was that I was wanting to compare it with our censorship board, which basically, I mean, what is censorship? It's canceling people for not agreeing with the dominant narrative, right, in this country.

It might be talking about opposite things. but what's the difference between canceling someone and censoring someone? It's the same thing. It's both ways. Yeah. I do make an exception for people who are advocating violence, obviously. Sure, sure. And for people who have been proven to have been violent, you know, the Weinsteins and people like that.

Oh, that's way over top. No. I wasn't thinking of those. That's not what we're thinking of. thinking of. But I have read, I mean, here it hasn't happened so much. You know, human rights is about having the rights or right to be human. Yes. And being human is being able to be human, meaning you evolve. Yeah. And for you to get canceled for something you said 20 years ago. Yeah. And your position as of today could be very well.

would be different from how it would have been 20 years ago, much less 25 years ago. Yeah, I mean, I've read people who lost jobs and things over some, you know, something. Yeah, I find that very, very, yeah, bothering as well. And here it hasn't quite happened to that level, I think, partly because everyone is, everyone is basically unwoke. And the people they cancel is anyone who's woke. So people like me and my colleagues... Be careful with what you say. My colleagues in sisters in Islam,

we are saying the wrong things according to the dominant narrative. So that constant, constant efforts to cancel us. Yeah, with fatwas and legal cases, et cetera, et cetera. So we haven't had that same sort like you read about in America or in the UK. But there is a little trend I noticed among young people who, even if you're associated with someone who they don't approve of, you two get cancelled. And I find that worrying like on what basis is that, I mean, you know, you deprive someone. of sometimes an income or opportunities because they happen to be friends with someone

that I don't get. I really don't get. So, yeah, it's something that needs to be talked out and in a safe environment. Let's weave through your book. Your dad was prime minister for 22 years, the first time, right? And he was the non-lawyer. His predecessors were lawyers.

And he always makes a big point about it, right? Yeah. You know, I'm the non-lawyer. And you spent very less time, very much less time with him throughout the 22 years. Did that make you broader-minded? Or you think if you would have spent more time with him during those 22 years? or maybe you would argue when he became Prime Minister, you're already grown up, right?

So it probably wouldn't have made a difference. Well, I was grown up, you know, when he was, yeah, thereabouts, you know. And a lot of people think that I grew up as a Prime Minister's daughter, and I definitely didn't because I was a full-grown adult by the time he became one. I think we were brought up, broad-minded anyway. So we had that foundation, the foundation of values and principles, but also the ability to see the larger world. But obviously, because I went overseas to study and things like that,

I was exposed to a lot of different things that my parents weren't, you know, that generation. I think we see it across the board, right? Post-war generation and then their children, you know, quite different. I mean, I understood when he was busy as PM. So I don't know whether spending more time with him was good about, I think actually it was good that I didn't have

too much time with him so I could develop my own identity. You know, I used to be really, really tired of people asking me, what's it like to be P.N's daughter? What is it like to be, you know, as if that was the only thing about me, you know, and I still had to figure out what was it about me that was interesting? And I had to develop my own thing.

And I think it helped that he was busy, you know, and he didn't spend much time directing me or anything. I don't quite understand all these children who, like, you know, my father is in politics and they're like, closely meshed up. And they only get known. as their father's child, I don't think that's very healthy, actually. I mean, you could eventually think the same way,

but you still have to have your own thing, I think. And so I did that. I had my job. You know, I did all this sort of NGO things and fundraising and things like that. And people could see that I work. You know, I'm not sitting there. people. I actually work. I actually lick envelopes and things like that, you know. Remember, you made 800 ringets as a writer. That's right, my first salary, 800 ringer. And I bought my

parents' dinner. I know. Was it a cheap or expensive dinner? Especially for me, yeah. But you know, I've read all your dad's books and in one of his books, a doctor in house, he makes a description of you're being the most similar to him. And how. And how? how he makes the comment about your mom's commenting, that be careful with having two elephants, you know, crashing at each other as somebody in between is going to get crashed or crushed. Yeah.

Right? Is that a fair characterization of you as being the most similar to your dad in character? I think I'm more aware of it now. Now that I'm older, I realize that the way I think, He's very logical and I like to think logical and very orderly like that. He's very disciplined and I realize that despite me thinking of myself as lazy and a procrastinator,

I'm actually quite disciplined. He always makes a point about being punctual. Yeah. So that would be the contrast, right? Yeah, I thought so, but I'm much better at it. Yeah, I'm not chronically late. as some of my friends are. But, yeah, I do see similarities now that I'm older,

particularly in the discipline I impose myself on myself to do things. You know, like if I have to do something by a certain date, I'll just do it. And yeah, which is why I do things mostly by myself. because I don't really trust anyone else to do it well. Yeah, I find that. And I think the way we communicate is quite similar in that we don't, we like to use very simple language to get things across, you know, and not use fancy words, things like that,

which only if you've read, you know, certain books. that you know. Yeah, that sort of thing. I want to ask you, when he was around leading the country for 22 years, I want to seek your wisdom on, with the benefit of hindsight, of course, whether or not he could have done things differently,

or better to be very pointed about it. Some things, yes, for sure, some things. Like what? We can edit this. I think he went some way towards curbing, let's say, undemocratic bodies in this country. Bodies that we are in our culture and that we inherited and that was kind of a compromise and independence that we had to

help them. He tried to curb them that, you know, Parliament is Supreme and not them. And I think the wish list is that he could have gone further, which is why we're seeing now

a resurgence of... Yeah, I mean, I'll say this. I mean, I personally have watched him ever since I was that little with great admiration and I'm not unique you know there is there's a bunch of us not just in my country but many others yeah I mean what he did it's pretty amazing to take Malaysia from where it was 22 years before to where he left off in 2003 it's pretty amazing man yeah I mean I think there's still

areas that he could have done I I mean, you know, as you know, running a country is not easy. Correct. There are 10 million things that need your attention, right? So you kind of have to prioritize. But I think that those two main things, that was one. The other one was I used to say to him that, you know, this growing religious involvement in politics is not good. You know, I said, look, pass the, they just have to say they want this,

and you will move a little bit towards them. That's all they want it. And they'll keep at it and you'll just keep moving. And that's not right. Where is it going to end? And now we see, you know, we see the power of these people in the Constitution, the religious bodies, the government religious bodies that we have, and the state religious councils and all that,

their powers are very limited in the constitution. But they're stretching into everything. I don't understand why we should consult them when there's a movie that's going to be shown. Sure. Why should we consult them on anything, you know, folks or whatever? What do they know about all these things? They don't, but they're stretching and they're stretching.

And that's why there are some things that just can't move, you know. Women's rights, for instance, you know, particularly Muslim women's rights. It's ridiculous that non-Muslim women in this country have more rights than Muslim women. Muslim women are in the majority, but they only... country that I can think of right now that works against the majority. It's really weird, you know. But there you are, you know. And I think one of the things that

he didn't do, and I think he didn't understand the situation is this thing in the Constitution that Malaysian women can't pass their citizenship to their children. if they're born abroad. And now there's a big fight. And the government and the courts agree that in the constitution, they have that right that fathers is equal to mothers as well. It's wrong to discriminate, you know?

Yeah. But the government is appealing against it. It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. In 2001, we amended the Constitution to prohibit discriminating. on the basis of gender. Along with other things that were already there, we inserted gender.

2001. And now the Attorney General's Chambers is arguing that that was invalid. So you mean you're proud of saying that you want to discriminate against women? I mean, this 2022. I don't know if you're following what's happening in the US

with respect to Roe versus Wade. Yeah. That's also a reverse. of something that would have been pre-existing for decades, right? Yeah. But I want to push on this. How or to what degree do you think this is correlated with the role of social media? I've been quite vocal on this, but, you know, vocal in the sense that they've equated

algorithmic amplifications with democracy. Right? And what's not fair about it is that the amplification is more with respect to algorithms of or with respect to narratives that are ugly. Yeah, yeah. Whereas the narratives that are less ugly, if not not ugly, are not being amplified at all. Exactly. Exactly. How to what extent do you think this is correlated with that in terms of how ideas have gotten so polarized in the last few years or decades? Totally. I mean, on the one hand, you can say social media is democracy, right? Because everyone gets information. But then you just talking to echo chambers a lot of the time. And you're, I mean, what gets passed around? The worst sort of things, right? Not anything good. And I don't know how to stop it. You know, it's really take Roe versus Wade. I was reading an article about how to take take Roe versus Wade. I was reading an article about how to take. TikTok was instrumental in forming the Gen Z views on Rovers's weight on both sides.

And it's a constant battle. And you know, it's, I don't think you're right. I don't think that actual facts get out there. Right. And, you know. I mean, you worked in a Newspan. You worked in a newspaper with readership of maybe in the millions or the hundreds of thousands, but that had to be editorialized, whereas things that are viewed by the billions are not being editorialized, right?

Yeah. And we've seen so many instances where garbages are being forwarded over our WhatsApp or TikTok or whatever. Totally. Right. Take COVID, for example. I call WhatsApp the university of WhatsApp. Because suddenly people pass down things and they all think they're experts. They all become doctors. Right. From all the rubbish that gets passed around on chat groups.

And how do you... I think I have a built-in skeptical button. So when I see something funny, I will actually take the time to go and research where does this come from. And I realize that not many people have that. And so they just follow it. They just swallow it.

And you know what's interesting. I find that people are so undiscerning that if it's the right language, they don't realize what's behind it. You know, I remember my Muslim friends passing on a thing about complaining about how there's no more religion in schools and everything's secular and, you know,

you know, there's kids are turning into, I don't know, atheists and things like that. They're passing it round, like, oh, look at this, you know, da-da-da. But I looked at it, and I thought, this is familiar language. And so did some digging, sure enough, it comes from the American evangelical movement. And they're complaining about the lack of Christianity. They're not talking about Islam, for God's sake, you know.

No way they want Islam talked about in the schools. But these people thought, oh, very nice, very good. You know, it's... There's extremism in many religions. Absolutely, yes. And it's just amazing how the democratization of information has not translated into commensurate democratization of ideas. Yeah.

And that's pretty pathetic, man. And it's probably why we're not seeing probably as good quality, you know, ideas or as good quality leaderships all over the world that we would have probably seen a long time ago. I don't know. Yeah, no, definitely, definitely. I mean, when I look at our leaders now, you know, I thought, I'd be really embarrassed to see, you know, portraits, you know, historical portraits of our leaders from independence.

And now it's like the more recent ones are like, you can't even put on the same level. You kind of have to put smaller pictures maybe because they just don't equal. Because the rise to the top requires a bit more, if not a lot more of sensationalization. as opposed to intellectualization. Totally, totally. And that's thanks to social media, which really fans things up. Yeah, I mean, and now, you know, phones are cheap,

so everyone has them. Yeah. And, I mean, on the one hand, social media also is good for holding people accountable. Yeah. You know, we've had these floods and things and people posting videos and say, this is what is really happening.

There's not what they say is happening and all sorts of things. But on the other hand, I guess it depends on who you follow too. And who you follow, I'm not going to follow all the nonsense, right? I'm going to be discerning. But you're different from probably the most. That's the tragedy. Yeah, but then at the same time, you know, even the, general, undiscerning public, are going to choose people like them.

Correct. Correct. They're not, I think I'll try and be smarter today and follow someone smarter. Right. No. No. Not working. No.

Yeah. So, yeah. That's the thing. There's just many silos happening facilitated by social media. It's boring. And I don't know how to fight against it. I don't know how to make good stuff sexy. It's tough, man, because the technology companies are just so big, they can afford to co-opt

any other stakeholder that would not have their interest aligned. Yeah. Right? And it's pretty pervasive throughout the world. It's not just in one or two. And it's affected democracies and non-democracies, which is why we're seeing this paradox. where in a number of democracies we're not seeing a true democratization of talent. No, exactly.

Right? The selection of talent is based more on patronage and loyalty in a democracy as opposed to meritocracy. Yes. Vice versa, or conversely in an autocracy, talent has been selected a lot more based on merit. Yes. Right? Take China, for example. I mean, they've been able to select good talents, you know,

You know, for the most part. Yeah. And that, I think, is an observation. Yeah. Okay, we've back through the book. Your dad took a break from 2003 until 2018. You were surprised in 2003 when he quit. Everybody was surprised.

Were you more surprised in 2018? Yeah, in 2018? When he decided to run again. to come back in again. Well, okay, he started campaigning in 2017. Well, he started campaigning, he started talking to the opposition. Of course, he left Amno again. And he started talking a lot.

One thing I have to say, he's benefited a lot from social media because he started vlogging and things like that. So yeah, because he felt like a lot of us that he was just not getting the space in mainstream media. So, yeah, when he started, you know, talking to all these people, some of them my friends, you know, people in NGOs, opposition and all that, which was great. But it still didn't occur to me that he would actually stand, you know, because I've got to say it was 92. I know, man.

Have you ever heard of anyone standing at that age? and so when I realized this I mean I talk about it in the book about how it suddenly dawned on me like oh my God you're actually going to stand and did he tell you only shortly

before he actually ran or a bit more than that I think it was maybe a few months. I don't know whether the election had been announced yet. I don't think so. But they were forming the Pakata Harapan. And obviously it was about going into elections,

and so you need candidates, you need... Was he afraid of opposition from the family, particularly you and the wife? Yeah. all of us actually. And yeah, so, you know, it took a while before I got it, I thought, are you kidding? He was being ambiguous.

Yeah. Are you kidding? But then I realized you want to be complaints about the opposition. Right. Was that they did not have, people were worried that they had no, experience in running the country that they ran states, but not the whole country, which is, as you know, a different ballgame. And people worried about that. And I think they were aware.

And they realized that you do need someone with experience. And who has the experience? my dad, right? So I guess they were moving towards naming him as the PM candidate. And to do that, he had to stand for election because you can't be one without standing for election, right? So I understood the logic of that. You know, people felt like, okay, this is someone who knows what he's doing, so we can trust, you know, you know, everything is about trust. Right. And so I understood the logic of that.

But it was still a shock. I mean, it was personally for the family, it's like, what? You know? But he was standing in a pretty safe seat, Langkawi, you know, home state. And that was okay. And now he's talking about, first he said he's not going to stand. Then he said, well, if they can't find a good candidate, maybe I'll. do it again and we all go, oh no, please.

So I think, you know, mom power has to come in to decide, you know, and she has pretty strong views about it. Sure, sure. And the views are probably different from earlier times. Yeah, I mean, she knows what it's like. Oh, man, and the limits. And the limits and, you know, so, yeah. Describe.

You've described this before, but I want you to describe the emotions when he was declared or Pakatan was declared victorious. It was, I mean, really unbelievable. It was the first time I had participated in a campaign. I actually participated. I actually went around and gave talks and things like that. actively campaigned. And so I guess we were all invested in it, but still, you know, what are the odds, you know? They had more money.

We had very little, you know, we were speaking from the back of trucks and that sort of thing. But it was nice, you know. It just felt like this is what people want. They really want you to come down. and, you know, be with them and talk to them like a normal person. Right. And also, you know, I think the other side also had some own goals, you know, making it a weekday for election, which never happens.

Right. They try to cut out my dad's picture. Yeah, they try to put all kinds of strings, yeah. I mean, it was all sorts of silly things. And so when we were all gathered to wait for the results, and there was a lot buzzing, because we had a lot of people around the country acting as agents, counting agents, polling agents, counting agents.

And so they were reporting back and saying, oh, that is going to happen. It's really going to happen. But there are some procedures, forms to be signed, and that's the crucial thing. Not sign, not counted, you know. And so there was this toss-up, but then the later and later it got. And I talked about it in the book. And one of the rallies where Azmin Ali, at that time he was with us, now, no longer.

And he said, the later the results come out, the bigger our chances of it. winning because if they win to announce it straight away right and it was getting later and later and later and the election commission announced the few places that the BN won and then they stopped and everyone was like what's going on you know so then my dad decided I'm just gonna you know, announce and see what they say. And that's what he did. And then they were forced to release the results.

And it just, and then it started pouring him. And we're just like, looking at the names, you know, some of the like the worst, worst people were losing. I'm like, oh, my God, oh, my God, this is actually happening. So it was. You were over the top there. It was just incredible. And it was, you know, I don't know, winning the 100 meters at the Olympics, you know.

Like, oh my God, you actually did it. And the fact that places like Johor fell. How could Jeho fell? That's the seat, the birthplace of Amdoh, you know, and all this thing. So it really reflected the feelings of the public, how fed up they were. Was it more of a because or despite? Sorry, despite. The victory.

The victory. Despite your dad or because of your dad? I think because. I would definitely, you know, because I think without him, people were unsure and they felt insecure. Like, because I think Malaysians... Breath of fresh air. Yeah, well, it's 97.

Well, relatively speaking. But, you know, I mean, some people like, what, we got him again? But I think Malaysians are quite pragmatic. Right. They are going to vote for

the party that's going to be able to fulfill promises a lot of time. So, which is why in the East Coast, where Pat Hatan was quite weak, they just wiped out. They were just wiped out.

Because they know, you're weak. You're going to be able to do anything. But in the rest, I thought, okay, with my dad there, and there's this whole thing, and we really, really are fed up with the current government. Yeah, let's give them a chance. And that was it. I mean, the feeling, the feeling the next day, you know. Can imagine. Like I say in the book, the sun shone brighter, the air, the air, clearer. It was unbelievable. People walked around with a smile. And of course it all got up in the two years. Yeah, I want to get there. You dedicated a chapter on the wedding, on the betrayal, right? I was just curious why the two were in wine. Was it because of a contrast between one happy moment?

and one unhappy moment? I guess because that was February 2020. And there was so many things happening at the same time. That's why the chapter is called the wedding, the virus and the coup, I think it's called. Because, you know, there was this wedding that we had planned. It was the first big wedding we've had in the family. My niece was getting married.

And we were all excited about it and everything. And then there was this virus. that was appearing. And then in the midst of all this was all this political thing and it was... So I just thought that isn't it weird?

Isn't life weird? That you have this family thing happening. At the same time, you have this global thing happening. At the same time, you're having this national thing happening. You can't choose

how things happen. You can't direct life. in an orderly manner. Right. It's pretty messed up, man. It was pretty messed up. I mean, so yeah, I thought that was my experience of it. That, you know, having to be aware of all these things happening at the same time, you know,

all these political machinations and then having to dress up and go to a wedding, you know. and that everybody was there, including the people who eventually, you know, stabbed him in the back. Right. You know, so, yeah. You talked about how your dad was asked to sign a piece of paper, and then whether it's the same day or the next day,

when you were with him, you just drank a cup of whatever, and he said, you know, I made a blunder. Talk about that. Which paper? He wrote... That was in that chapter of yours. He wrote the letter of saying that he was resigning. Correct.

Letter to the king. Yeah. And I happened to be there as he was writing it. Yeah, yeah. And it is my regret that I didn't stop him or made him consider a bit more. I really didn't think. Correct. Stop short of that, right?

Yeah. Yeah, I, because I, but I was thinking of him personally. Yeah. Because when I saw it, you know, and I literally looked over his shoulder. And I said, you know, I knew you're going to do that. Yeah. And he looked like, you know, and I thought, oh gosh, I'm not going to make him upset. And so I was thinking personally.

you know, I really, really didn't think of the consequences and I don't think he did either. I don't think he expected a whole bunch of Bakataan people to move out, you know? I guess he assumed I stepped down, next one comes up. Next one is probably Anu Ibrahim, right? Right, right. That's the natural progression.

But then that were all. All these, you know, moves, Azmin Ali. Okay, the Bersapu lot went, and I think numbers-wise, it was still okay. And not all the Bersatu lot went, just Buryuddin and his cohort left. But it didn't expect him, you know, there's another lot to go,

and that brought down the numbers, and then it meant the government fell, right? And then there was this, scramble about the numbers, you know, basically, who has the numbers, wins, right? And this whole scramble and, oh, it was terrible. It was really terrible, you know, like you suddenly didn't know who you could trust. You just didn't know. My friends, my friends turned, you know, and to me that was the most heartbreaking, you know,

that you feel betrayed. How could you? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I'm going to try to end this with a couple of sort of rapid fire questions, right? Uh-huh. What does it take for you to be happy?

What does it take for me to be happy? What does happiness mean to you or for you? For me, it is time with my family, basically. You know, it's hard to be a mother to adult children, and all my children are adults now, and they have their own thing. Now I'm sympathetic to my parents. And, you know, my youngest is far away, and it's, you know, you feel like, oh, I wish I'd done better and made them closer and want to come home. and, you know, that sort of thing.

So being with them and talking to them is what makes me happier, I think. And not having meetings and things to do, but I don't think I can do that. I'm like my dad in that way, like always thinking of something to do. What, you know, to those out there who are aspiring to be an activist,

what message do you have for them? I think the main message is that you have to actually believe in the cause to do it right. You really have to. Because if you're just doing it because it's a job, it's not going to be enough. I think the most successful activist, and I'm not even sure, I'm the best example, are the people who really took it all in. and felt very strongly about it. So whether it's climate change or women's rights or LGBT rights or whatever,

if you don't put yourself, you might come from a very privileged background like I did, but if you don't put yourself in those people's shoes, then it's not going to work. People see through you if you're not genuine, you know. So it has to be authentic, I think. You mentioned climate change. Do you sense that there is enough activism already?

And let me try to not dramatize, but put this in a pragmatic context, right? Greta has a followership of maybe 17 to 20 million people on Instagram. Amazing, yeah. Kylie Jenner has a followership of close to 200 million. Yeah. One decarbonizes, the other one carbonizes. Right. I mean, generally speaking.

Doesn't that speak of the pulse? Yeah. Out there? Yeah. Right? I know. So what would it take for activism with regards to climate change? to climate change as more and more people to take ownership with what's really existentially

crucial for particularly the younger generation. I think we need to do better at showing how it actually affects them. You know? It's not something that's far away, it's happening right now. Like we've had this terrible, terrible floods. And we need to make it real. I think the trouble with things like Instagram is that it's a particular format and you have to be able to express yourself in a particular format, right? And not too worthy, more visuals, things like that. And that's something that we have to learn.

The young are pretty good at it. Yeah. And I think that if we can find, you know, a Greta type around here who can speak about it. Right. On Instagram and on TikTok. Right. That might do it. I don't know about numbers, you know.

Okay, Kylie Jenner has 40 million. But that 40 million. I thought it was 200 million or something. Or 200 million. Yeah. It's crazy. It's crazy. It's crazy.

But they also. following other people. They might also be Greta's followers. So it's not just individuals who just follow her and that's nothing else, right?

People are spread across different, different people. So they're getting lots of different input. So I don't know whether we should use those numbers as a real indicator. of influence.

But you do sense there could be more, if not a lot more, activism, right? Of course, of course. In this country, yes. For sure, you know. The trouble is you need the space. Correct. To be able to express yourself.

And social media is well and good, but you still need something that spreads even broader. in the public space and that's what my group is fighting for really you know the the space to to put our views across yeah you don't have to agree with it but you should at least listen to it so you get a well-rounded view of things right but you know there are forces that are trying to shut us down all the time because they think their narrative is the only one that should come out. Yeah.

Yeah. Last question, Marina. And this will, I think, complete the circle with respect to your book. Your advice on people out there who want to write, what does it take to be a good writer? It just takes writing. You just, I just, I, You know, when people ask me that, I say, a book that's in your head is not a book.

Yeah. You know, a lot of people write books in their head, including me. But it's only a book if you write it down. And you have to read a lot, read a lot, read a lot, read a lot, and write a lot. I don't always follow my own advice. I write every day, actually. I write in my journal every day. But I'm not writing the sort of things that will become a book.

I need a bit more discipline to do that. But it's true. It's like a muscle memory in a way. The more you do, the better you get at it. I mean, I don't think everyone needs to go and do a master's like I did. There are lots of online courses. There are lots of tips you can get from everywhere. But the main thing is, right.

You know, I got this tip from a good buddy of mine when you write, try not to write ahead of other people's intelligence. Is that the right way to put it for you? Yeah, that's a point there. I mean, you don't want to be seen to be talking down to people. Because nobody will read it. You also don't want to pitch it too low so that you think that people are stupid. I think right as yourself is the best thing.

I agree. Just right as you are, as the way you would normally say things. Yeah. Wow. That was the apple and the tree. Plus a few other things. Thank you so much. You're very welcome. Thank you.

Thank you. So, that's Marina Mahatir, novelist, penulist, activist, and columnist. Thank you, many. This is Endgame.