Endgame with Gita Wirjawan - Marty Natalegawa - ASEAN Digerogoti: Salah Siapa?

Episode Date: December 6, 2024

Di tengah rivalitas Amerika dengan Tiongkok, bagaimana Indonesia harus bersikap? #Endgame #GitaWirjawan #MartyNatalegawa ------------------ Direkam 14 September 2024 dalam konferensi terbesar siniar kami, Endgame Town Hall. ------------------ Percakapan sebelumnya dengan Marty:    • Marty Natalegawa: ASEAN Must Have a S...   Episode Endgame lainnya yang mungkin juga Anda sukai:    • James Robinson: The World Is Rebalanc...     • Trump, Biden, and Foreign Policy Miss...     • Graham Allison: China-Russia Axis is ...   ------------------ Gabung Langganan Channel Endgame agar kami dapat terus memberikan konten yang berkualitas: https://sgpp.me/becomemember ------------------ Jelajahi dan diskusikan lebih lanjut episode ini di https://endgame.id/ ------------------ Untuk ajakan kolaborasi dan kerja sama, hubungi kami di sini: https://sgpp.me/contactus ------------------ 0:00:00 - Intro 0:01:06 - Pandangan realis-idealis terhadap geopolitik hari ini 0:07:35 - Sentralitas ASEAN mulai digerogoti 0:11:56 - Pesan Connie Rahakundini Bakrie dari Rusia 0:16:43 - Politik LN kita bebas aktif, bukan netral 0:19:20 - BRICS: Apakah itu risiko bagi ASEAN? 0:22:41 - Sejarah kedamaian Asia Tenggara 0:27:58 - Indonesia harus pimpin arah diskursus Global South 0:32:25 - Hati-hati dengan istilah ‘Middle Power’ 0:36:43 - Indonesia, jembatan bangsa-bangsa 0:44:32 - Haruskah kita was-was di Laut Cina Selatan 0:54:56 - Astro-politics 1:00:33 - Kesetaraan intelektual untuk isu-isu frontier

In my president-ter-pilied, that instinct internationalism is quite big. Hewled, he knows that between the world and the land-negris, so that it's not something that's a lot of because, kind of, because, kind of, it's not, we're contemplation, down-negrimicrous, well, the world-negren-nagrin-nation, later. In other than we look at our

Tojewan national, only can be GAPE If international environment condusive We have So aggressive

Mersipersiaping for perforang in the bidang in the Bidangue. Ms. Marty, thank you very atas the adirate. I want

with juxtaposition Antarer two public intellectuals. The first is John Meersheimer who

that in the international politics or politic international, that we're to make the best of the best of the bad.

One other is Professor Frank Fukuyama or Francis Fukuyama who made sure that democracy is not always mubhackan the result

that's always but, but, pre-sembhance-like system alternative that's more good than democracy. The third, maybe observation

this is to be about how the world this more doy-dun-dur-konged dana that more than for the the penning

pertanan. If I look the angaran partan in the world, from 190-n-N-N-Negar this is a year,

$2.75 trillion dollars. And, America, America, the United NATO and the men and the amount

it's going tolotorker $2.1.15 trillion dollars. And, the agaran for institutions multilateral,

like PBB, who is the doggiskan to make the money, that's the amount of $4 million.

Prospect to the front for we navigate in the this is how, this,

this, my, Thank you, thank you and friends, people, and I'm going to with Pat Gita and people all today today.

So I'm in chat with good what I'm what I'm saying. As always, very thoughtful and very informative as well. Thoughtful working. On the

, what, the panang of the first, that we've said, if we're seeing it, so pessimistic

that, in the art We say, we're only the other we're being had to be held up the decisions that all over sub-sulid or serba-optim. Because I believe

I belong to a school of thought, Pa, we're realist. In one part, I'm maddened that the world is like what a, it's not-a-and-a-and-a-n-n-n-namb-namb-nambu. But in other

the other side, there idealism-y-y-git-y-eolist. Realist. idealist. In the art of we're putting up that we're

doing we're underp and beperbi- and beper-buy and be-rebuy through the transformative change.

So, because it, if we're if we're in the world of the world of political

international, soola the choice of the either the between, we're we're

we're trying to get-cabat- -e-cab- -e-cab-a- to try to try to prolet the the best of each of each of the choices. For example, if in the bidang geopolitic,

this is we're going to be adeption between pro-missalepok Barat America-Siricat or pro-clop theongok, miscellany. This is where, if we're in a different of the and the

and the other we're from one of one or we're or we're being

we're we're we're we've let us alone neutralistic outlook or try to

and this and this is my mind we the one of the first that's actually to a point but if

if we're if we have idealism still can try to make the real-estabh the reality to bring about

positive change. If the second about democracy and that's not always make sure the result that's real

that's not but I'm inhurt us but but one of democracy is there's a decision, the reason

so in-gner the time that didotap We have even in the We mean, we can, we can, we can't be able to

the people and the time to menelike what what has been in five, 10 years and

the rest of and we can have, we can, we can, make a fresh mandate, or,

and can't get put the sovereignty, the sovereignty, the authority, the authority,

we're there, but, but, but, the, the point of that democracy

is not always make sure make sure something we're not able to not even

not even we're despondent so we're pessimistic which the third resources sumberdai

that give to give to the power power and far more more than the way the way

diplomacy per time if it's like diplomacy bilateral national or diplomacy multilateral, that is a fact of life. And I don't want to, so on the way,

that there are a lot of people, so that the defense spending is always bad, because, of course, there, a state of the country, have a, what, the need of minimum, minimum defense requirement. But, um, the yogiania,

seagiaean, what, Sumber Daya also give to upy upy diplomacy. We've

used to Pagita wagging peace. We have as aggressive to make sure sure

for the warang in the world, so we have to have the courage has to

have the courage, to make long-lacacac demy perdamaian and peacemakers have been in

the world which is a lot of perpechaheran this. But thank you thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. And, uh, panangangang that's very profound, like that.

Thank you. Uh, thank you, uh, book on the Asian, and one of the thesis that's the

that's the thing that is that about, the centralitas. The thing we're not

only only just in even just, even mupuk centralitas. I want to rec a little thinking

about howmarty about the whole perhimpunan perhipunan new. Like Ocus,

like quad, like bricks, how much the dampak from the impunununan like it to,

the capacity we're not only to be just to be able centralities ASEAN, but sucur-sugur,

make-sacay centralities ASEAN to the point. DEMACUTEDYANN TENTUNKINNANNAN BASANNEDAWRKANK in various in-N-N-N-MECRICT

in-NECDGIA, how far away, ASEAN, the giga-GiATAN to-HATATP to-HIDUAN MASING. So, centrality not only one-Sept-MATAN-N-MATRAT,

but even, in the in our own our but if the other the other the

main, we're in the American about ASEAN centrality is the ability to

effect positive change the can't bring positive to be able to happen

on the situation. Not only just even even organizer. If event organizer

is much because we even matter we're somehow we're ...emingarding certainness, Gil choleraan kutuania, and the other than... ...that-negara-Besarsasar that...

...isidang in the country ASEAN. But, it's meant to... ...mecarned the U.S. ...itain, this is that in the time 10 years later, architecture's very... ...somelectuals. We've seen... ...prosess Grosus...

...but... that we have we said, there's ocus, there's quard, bricks that more global, the fact of, and trilateral

in Northeast Asia and and so forth. In fact, the time Lassian, was actually made up a good-en-in-lateral

this, not have at the expense of ASEAN, can be synergican, can be selerasked, because ASEAN not one-one

waddaugh in the time. Namun, the airste this are the general this is a

grugotty centrality asian. And even tibul menurl hamat us because

Asian certainly not optimalking forum forum that they've got because we

can know, Asian Plus 3, there Asian Regional Forum, there East Asia Summit, there ARCEP,

regional comprehensive economic partnership that's is that's the ASEAN, but by ASEAN, there's a lot of

only only a event conference to meet every year routine. There's no impact that timely and relevant so that the other and the

country in the start shopping elsewhere, and then the most classic in here is, like, the world China Southan, the country

like Filipino, now, now, now they're running and the country like

America America America, Japan, Australia, menanning this, maybe

because because they're not asean not provide for their security concerns.

So, something that waspaday, wake up call, even, maybe for ASEAN,

that's more of the same, if we keep, it's, he goes, to be the same-natured, it

engendung risk as a more the resamping the Rerbansi-ASEAN. Thank you, Mr. Mardi. This I'm going to segue a little because there

was a, uh, the impaneeqs, and also there's a penpani how ASEAN that's not as far to be an event

organizer just. We, we've got video message from our time we, who, it's,

I'm not be here, Ibu Connie Rakhundini who can't back back from Russia because it's being taught in the work

in a good thing. Can't be made video message from Ibu Kony. Hi, everyone. I'm sorry and I'm not

not able to come to the important point in GENGITNI PANGUnguja and Duny and the United and I'm

but I'm doing can't doggone my career and also I have a job academic diplomatic diplomatic and with a single-tenessal, as far as far as I'm in front of the penitra, I can't even as well as because it's been tied to the Anjan and Pontarch Science.

I just think of all about about the power of our own and that is a strategic, yeah, position Indonesia of a quorum, then how much it is going to adapt on the partarming entreeal and other and other, and how we're just, how we can't just,

not just to be hard at times like the technology that's high, cyber, AI, or interiors, the war, all the world, but also, but also how we must see the impact, the economy that's

not not even if it's by Russia or even if you know, in the aspect East Economic Forward, in Briggs, in Shanghai Corporation, in whatever, that. Now, all that's really

in the way of the framework, yeah. Sementara, I always believe that economic and defense as well, they have a union that's related to someone else. With the power of this, we have used to use

using the position rivalities so, we're just going to, oh, there's realitas this, but how much how much more than position rivalitas that, we have to be able to make up poor,

from the impact impromacy or from the aspect of the threatanan. That's what, it's a part of, using position rivalitas in Indonesia, it's as a zone that has beenpertanical

our own-meted that, not-block. But non-block, it's in an art that not in a part-out-partial. What is it? What is it? What we have two

Piliand? Are we going to start on the same training, equipment, personal, what yeah, diplomacy,

whatever the infrastructure our technology, and also to get to the ability of our now.

This is the idea of either with talking about how we're about how diversification to make sure

What is it? What is it? We have to be able to build the power of technology, or how we it's a technology, as a technology,

if we're when we're seeing that we're having that's the important that the most that's

this, the power of this such as I've said, out of the how much, how about

how much surveillance and that's, it's very, that can't That we have to play our as a media global and we're able to make up

manned to make sure America in Indonesia and the area of the world and the world. So, we have to be able to build upatown that's a way of it.

It's a way of course. We have to make it and again, we have to push kind of of a bit of stouthertyl and aliening. And,

the problem is, it's from our our own our own people. So, not in the time of people, not the people,

And I'm saying, I can't be iterated with individuals heabat who's been had to be a lot this. But, but the intia is, let's have been together, we're together, compoan of thinking, and to be able to be able to beaerone

people, and let's be able to beaughan with our own with our own thanks for Mr. Githuilawan for all right of great, because with the podcast Patridawiloha where I'm saying I'm looking at the podcast Pat Vahua Yawai, I'm really, I'm looking at least,

to be figure to beculture to puttukal and be able to sayhat because again there again there are kumnalia

abat but it's the most likely how we're coming up in Indonesia, from all the agguan

and abatement and that and that and it has been from the government. From Russia

I say I'm saying I'm in the time in the event in the event

and again again again again I'm saying yeah I'm going to tell how how much

the country is a lot of and they're and all of to be able to get to the Indonesia, should be able to

be able to. Hi. POMARTI, that's many points point that by Buconi. There are that's not

spakat? Yeah, very kind of people, we've been contend, we've got, only,

only, only, but, we've got, but, one thing we also we also also is

a part about non-block to be able to the fact-n- and not passive. I think this

important to be in the baris-bawy because if you talk about Indonesia, we can

politics of our country we're we're be and active not natural. If

neutral, is the important we're in the middle, we're in between, we're

even, in-tri-distance, even, in-tarm country and different. But we're from,

let's say we're independent, beabababous, bebas, and even active. We're active to give

pandan back and be contribuously to be a problem in this. Sometimes, the actifan we do not

we make us with one group of the country, sometimes with people people other than the country

other than the tradition of our country other than, After this, if I'm not Indonesia, but in the rest of the whole, there's a result of the nations that may not happen, don't gungue us, we're neutral, we don't want to be a part of perseruance of your,

but I think it's more than it. The power of ideas. We're just to make sure to ASEAN centrality. Intinia, centrality is, can, has iraise, have been rebut,

even, has to earn the language and for it's not and it's and there and it

and that's relevant, and you can't answer the time that the

people. Kani also also also the problem the

problem problem defense, diplomacy, economy, AI, technology, I think

that, that's the world, this, this is the policy,

of the economic, and economic, also, the kind of level, local, national, regional, and global. And,

the country that will be a result, is a country that can be able that kind of that's

and be a whole of government, and even whole of society, all the society, all the society

all the people, and I'm think that that's some of, chart of the other than I.

He'll give to make sure several times and I'm concerned whether there

risk if there one or some one or some of some or some people that are

in the key in the clots I'm I'm I think this

this time the the power the American we're humat

us justro variations from politics of the community from each

masing the unity not it has it's it's uniformity

so diversity from politics from countries Asian is

product feature not product defect this this is this

is and even in back in even we we

we we diversification it variation it as a kind of

unity in diversity. So I don't really care. There's a other than some of the

country Asian that's there's other than also maybe the group other. Because that

that's a facta. The important is the all upia and what

the human can put on context asian it. So, don't

be at the cost of, at the expense of ASEAN, what gejala like this.

And this the compak ASEAN and Indonesia in the place in the

very critical and it's strategic and provide for all. All the country ASEAN

and they feel they give payung by ASEAN this. If Indonesia also

also Jalan Sending there risk a la carte regionalism. We're only the area where the most we like. And Indonesia

is, long as far as the country that our strategic interest is our strategic interest is aSEAN that the way, because that we're able to synergican, consensurgy can

synergican national with the importance regional and the importance global. But the BRICS this, by definition, name the lembaghani is a

briggs singatant from Brazil correct me if I'm wrong we're wrong we're

Brazil Russia India India and South Africa Nama the

the name the company is the same the same them back Same as far asian plus, asian, so on the,

so much we need to be because we need there's a georgality, partnership in every upay, don't even if we're to be as a add-on, just as a more

as a penambah from process like this. Sovereign equality and partnership, important, interesting, very, man,

This is, if we look at 2,000 years, Asia-Tengara, this has been by and with Buddha for 400 years, Hindu, 600 years, colonialism, Islam, Nasrani, and renecalaqaan, selma, 800,000, after that.

And if I think, the number of the death that's the opinion that's based on the different opinion to be based on race,

ethnicity, or other other kind of than 10 million, 10,000. Dibanding can

in the duration that same, y'it, in Europe, based on attribut that same, which,

the difference pandan or opinion to be based with race, ethnicity, and agamac, that, the number of the death

1090,000, where 120 million from 190 million, it's just in duration 3, 40, 40, 20, 20, between the war

the world and the 2. This is, it's baris-bawai that, Asia-Tengara, termasung, Indonesia,

tentu-nature, it's very can be rankul multipolaritas, that, it's, that we're, that we're,

stable. Now, the a year, this, we're going to disugue with era that is very multipolar than than

unipolar. What we can tell us to the world, that Asia Tengara, including Indonesia, that we're

enough to get to multipolarity, so it's the raguance, and the quatirance is a

aghaparker. Pat, thank you. to give information fact that we've got we're saying, I think

something that important to we're trying to we're and we gethue first and foremost the first

and the one of us our, is our our countries in the Kwasan Asia and

Dengara there, there's confidence, there a RASA DIRI that we have

a lot to offer. We have a lot to offer. many can we can we can't give people can't with the

world of this while we know that we're in being used as a while and the

people who people who people out, the story that we say we said that

2000 years. My my knowledge doesn't go that far we're we're just maybe

67 onwards after asian did but the intuance can same that the

Our area, we're actually is a country that is a kind of by the self tolerance, inclusion, respect for diversity. And I think

this is a one of our we need, we have to learn and learn how we manage to succeed,

how we can get to make the result. We, in ASEAN, since ASEAN Terevento, We've seen the area

Deghara, Dibanding can with Asia North East Asia. The area, the area isa Dengara, can, in the words, there are ASEAN,

there's ASEAN community that's full with the kukuranga, and it's more better. But, in the Asia Uttara, where

there's prospect of the Permanan Tutsuantius is, we have done much better in there. to be able to

beelola perbeda and can make themmajuan and also and even I think

we're up we're trying to identify what dynamics which can it's not other than our humat

us and in modern modern South Asia I mean this is in Pasca to 67 I think

the peopleimpinimpinimental important because in the area of we're saying there's a question about

a lot of unisciation but the country and the country in the country in the country

can't the other so that not not be suburb perpecalf but

there's sense of mutual respect and and mutual tolerance I'm In fact that the tolerance, I'm not so as much comfortable, Pa, Pa, Pat, Gita.

Isilagelance is as a lot of only tolerant. We have to celebrate, have to be really, merriacquered, and mymbud, and shucurry this. Because, what, um,

make, uh, the area, and with, with, uh, with, with,

uh, But that's really, data that's very eye-opener, something that's very very, uh, this is

many that's many about about international. And, the we're in

there's many the first this is global south. Yeah, and, and,

m'amamamance about, global south, and there, The keypinning our to very be a part in context global south. Yeah,

right, there's this islea there's a lot of popular, the word, the word, not same back back,

because in the last year, 20-an, when we're talking new international economic order, there's,

purloughan the pat-anan-economy the world, and, also, the useil of North-South divide, the per-bellae, the difference between the Uttar and South. Namun,

the a year-ahir-in-in-comalied, and more popular. I think one of the chirin'n't, pa-a-a-a-a-pac-a-pac-a-fitt. Even, thisilah, it's used to be-gunaken with, with a much variation. Pandangan in the country and the global south, I think it's very

veryative there have a important of the different, the way of the

different, the data and latar-belakang in identification is what is what what is what we're

what we're because because Indonesia not can't absent from

this discourse this because if if you're people think that we're it's

we're we're In 2005, Indonesia, when when it's already a contua or penelgara from the Comprehension Asia Africa,

barely 10 years since our own underdiscan multidimansy, we're the people who are that's

making peters from Asia Africa, the agaracan Asia Africa and then the non-block. So,

we know that Indonesia can't be absent in the in the percapable the different

different things of the time that's Mr. Sunco that's

the grand agasan that very madehului the people

people things new emerging forces versus old established

forces even even because in Indonesia came from

BB because because the government there there there

there G2G7 and Indonesia has always been present and what's

uh, uh, but, uh, present there's seismic moment. There's identification

what unites the so-called global south. If we're absent, global south this is similar, the same pucle-ratakan

with bricks, now. Bricks, I want to make make it's been the part of global south.

So, we're in BRICS, there are a country like Tyeongk, there

another country like Russia and also there's the people like that if there there,

there there, there kesunia panangang we, then this will be not

peranan from Indonesia. Torn we're going we're in Pernandez 2015, 1955, so,

How many, how many times? 70, pageta, this, this matematicalenia more than we're 70 years, yeah, bag, we know, back you, yeah?

70 years, we're getting, a moment for us, to be able to with a gagasan, what is

what's this, global south countries, agar message our is positive. We are for something.

We are for something. We are for something. We're, global that's more democratic, which fit for purpose, and so forth. And if we're not, we're not a part of discourse of like that,

then, uh, can, uh, can't, uh, can't-partis of our participation. Mr. Marty, I've seen, make a point on the power, or middle powers. Yeah, can? What is their-in-uh-are-not-beckon

with the use-lisdila the world. Yeah, as well, as how many people gethue, the end up this is

the middle powers. Even, it's about Indonesia now is middle power, and something

that we should we should we , partut we, what we are some graduation

moment. We're today today again, now is middle power. I'm a bit,

I got a little, aty-hatty in makingy-hapy this. The first is because this

makes an so that the world this class stratified power. There

that big powers, major powers, great powers, there's the middle powers, there's the middle powers, there's,

since we all, the other than the other than ever been made up capitalism,

we, we're just much-matic- in the community to make garis-bawing concept sovereign equality

of states. All the country, both or even small, setar, same the dolatan, same,

the right and quagibannes. If we not have in we're making, we're having become,

the part of the so-called middle powers, we're all also, also make codification,

to evenerkan the stratification like this. So, isa misplaced celebration.

And also as aand- it's-pun- bettool, is, is, about, we can

batasy ambassie and the ability, the end-ug- -un-n-

-n- -n-n- -n- -n-n- -n-n- because Indonesia is-

of the compuancey, potency, potency that we'll have to keep on, and then-notice our ambition our only as middle. If we're inhumanism, it's very, it's very, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um,

um, um, uh, and the, pa, pa, we are, uh, currency of power. Power, this is the meaning is, is the ability a one a country impung

outcome that's more varied, more verzi not even as much as the power military or

the power economy, menormat we're undergant from issue it. Some of

the world, the environment, pandemic or the problem whatever global

common issue will there, there can't there that's different for for each, and each

tatanan it. So, if we're not a single one league that's making

ranking, but ranking is there can't from issue it. So I think, in

the old days we're, we're, we're always we're going international, international

politics is as the play the game that nation's play. There's

one papan catur, we're two playing chatur. Now, this, the multiple boards. Multiple boards that are made on the same. In some,

in some, in some, in the, we're in front of we're still men, which in the same, we have to multitask, thinking a multi-dimensional term, and so-olah

the ranking that that, I think we're very much most of the most of the important the people are the country and

people are giving hand other than you now, you're back back, you think we're being able to

come to the comprehensive the next. I don't think it's for them to give us that type of

, give us that type of , give us such as much such demigient. If we

look, existence number three, population the most of four in the world. Economy the the number 15-16 in a nominal, in the PPP-adjusted basis,

number 8. Like in the batas lohika, patut for Indonesia is to interlocutor of the quatans of the quat or that that's in theongok with barat,

or even Islam with barat, apalagi with existence of our as a country Muslim-ter-besar the majority-per-de-dunia with democracy that's robust. But I've been seen Indonesia be per runger to become interlocutor. This observation first. The second,

the last of this we'll see J. Shankar, The country The Uttar-Negri, that's Marthy can't quite exactly. Healatting he'll too

quite piwai to reproyxican India in Pentas international. Even to some extent can be even to be

even a interlocutor he'll make can peran geopolitic with a way that just enough with Yonk

Ukraine, Russia, Europe, America, America, the United. The third, in order president

is the president there's instinct internationalism is quite high. Now, criteria what, Mr. Marty,

for Indonesia more can make projectsican internationalism in context geopolitic to the front. Thank you,

Thank you, Mr. Pagita, even if I think it's about in a form of particular, the matter of

what we're saying, and there's also, and I'm very important, and I'm very very high

the penilay about where Indonesia in this in the in playing the role as

interlocutor, the peran of India, the country like India, the which is,

which has to actually, that Indonesia there some capacity,

potency, apac economy, apac, democracy or, the power diplomacy, the power

that we can be undersandar on as a potential for our diplomatic

capacity, the power of political foreign country we're but

but all of all it must be translate, must be transformed

to the currency that's that's the situation to be able to situation. Taddy India gave

example by Pa, Pagita. I also can't add to the theftar

is Vietnam. We can see Vietnam and the same Asia, in the time one last year

in this whenerima from President America States, then from Tionk,

Pimpinant Tyeongk and also from Russia to Russia if I don't say I'm

the other major country countries the country country. The country is a manpower or

memerank in the situation that such a complex and and it

and the power power the interlocutor isila Pat

Pat Pagita it that that we're something we can

try to come can't come back I in the time Lerlux

the term dynamic equilibrium is how how much in the situation

in the situation suns seismic shifts there never under the

nature where do we place ourselves are we we place ourselves we can't put

we junior partner from one of one another another another

another another or we sometimes we're just and memos we needgue we neutralize

ourselves so we don't we don't want to offend we don't want to offend yeah I'm in order I'm sure

or we're proactive proactive proactive trying to make rebuot and in this I think if I'm

interlocutor first and foremost capacity I are the presaratance is of the ability that's jerny

who can see what's what the dynamics that's happening that's

the time and the power that we can be that this because

this is because this forum we are about we're about

we think we think we we have got a bit absent air

air air I'm I'm about global south where position

we We have been absent in my view. Menloidic, where position we want to show. What we want to be sumbangs? Menlohemate us, one of the ones that we can talk about concept, realist, idealist. We're realistic in making, the first thinger is a certain

country big is a certain a certain kind of uniseled but

idealistic or have idealism because we think, because we're going to think this is

not have the conflict the public strategic stability how we can

make sure we can make sure we can't stability strategis code of behavior

how and how how bestisicap predictability of behavior this is the menuhemate we have, how can't Indonesia

can't be embanked, to find commonalities in front of them there. The point that's the last

that we've got said, we're looking in several months this last this is since it

did tapkan as the president We have the president-terpilid, we'll see one asset on the same thing that we've said, we'll call on economy our democracy our, democracy, and the rest of it, one asset that's very important, which is personal interest and personal engagement,

the repuduillian and ketertarication on the level of individual the he's he's the president repilit the

tapak with the matter and may know that between the

and the country and between so much something that because kind of

sometimes it's not think about we're soololah we

we're we're not over the country not not the land

we're we're in the people the Tutsuant national, but can't be capable if international environment

is conducive. So, what, muddhawned, to be able to be able to think as a strategist, comprehensive, holistic,

whole of government, whole of society can be the soing Indonesia can come back to, make an

partan that active in the forum international. Ms. Marty, in, in many many times

see how much you're going to how you can one of the one of the episode or peristewa in Cambodia that

you did an extremely good job in doing shuttle diplomacy now this I want to try in context

flashpoint that which was in Laocina Southan this In the in the

panangan conventional this it's it's done with the

un-satuan or centralities ascent as one initiative that

the years last was code of conduct which was

to be set to be put put down two two six

but but look the the development how how

the certain under the counteration bilateral by the multilateralization by tionk,

d'bonding can multilateralization, code of conduct is too, be riskco, now I want to ask to Ms. Marty, is, am I am still optimist

to be code of conduct for the of conduct, for the issue in Asia, Tengara. Yeah.

Pagita, I'm going using peace. we we're making purdamaian with as aggressive

as keras we're making we're in the D&A we if we if we see a certain

or the possibility of perseruan uh merupacan a slurinia for jump tinder

we're we're going to try um, menhahi or to make facilitation, there's

penelisain the problem. More more, risko that's more better than better than

but it's not be able and I think this is something that we try to comeank can

with with the other recan we're on. Mennay Laucinah

Southan Memang, this one of the flashpoint, potensi flashpoint

that is the There's a some kind of a certain in the other than asia-tengara in this, situation conflict, from the Uigh-China, from the Umbuds, the world,

between Tyeongk with India, miscellan, Asia Uttara that's-Utara, which is full with Pacific, and so forth. So, our region is

replete, full with potency conflict. Lau-Cina-Slatan that's-sucurie is that's good good we're wawasan

our people people of the people of people people people Muotarkusumat Maja,

Bapa Hashim Jal and then the rest of it. We have a script we have a script. We have a process dialogue

between ASEAN and Tijuana Potensi-Conflict and, termasue of conduct um

did ask pessimist or optimist I'm eternal optimist, Pa, Pa, Pat, I'm optimistic, but not in the way I take it as a given,

something that will be optimistic. We have to be optimistic. We have to be hard to work of conduct this. But, but I was like

that we've actually actually, we've been insinuate, already, it's just, it's been dictation, and it's, there's risko

code of conduct this, upayation, Kettingalan with perkemangan in the lapangangans in the

lander in the we're in kodifakation things that now that now that now is

there's and the kawatirang we are actually because there's there's there that

there's there that the result that is a sort of a person person who not optimal

Now, this is the penue risk. So it's better to have more, more better to have, what, we take our time, agreement that's really,

meaningful, from because because it's gas, and it's not like we're like we're that we're trying,

we're doing, but we're doing, is, is, is, is, just, it's, it's,

just, the, the, Laos China-Slatan, because security issues in the area, can, saling to-caid. Laosina-Slatan, Taiwan, Strait, East China, Sea, and so forth. So, maybe, in the time that, it's not only code of conduct for Laudcina-Slatan,

but code of conduct for all the whole of our own country. Peaceful settlement of disputes, the end up, consensuals non-use of force, crisis management, and what I'm parted to shooker to,

Paquette, is, it's all right, really, Bali Principles 2012, and the rest of it, and the rest of it,

it's still there, it's still, it's still, be empowered, and be given the markna, that's, that's,

I, if I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, situation or potency flashpoint in slat Taiwan, in bandingan Lauchina-Slatan. I don't believe me to see,

in slat Taiwan, it's deterrentia. Jail more than, and mengenit, that Taiwan, it's, the importance for Tiansk and America's U.S.R.A. It's very correlates with existence of precision manufacturing

which, which is far-biasat, It's related to semi-conductor. This terminifestation in TSM which is very piaway and the pepiawayan the restable before before be able to

anyone in the U.S. America, the United, in the time in a couple of years to come back, not be able to make the U.S.M.A.C.O.C. Capanpun,

but this will be more more than. I'm going to be able to be able rentan. because deterrents, it's less little.

So, Mr. Mr. Pagita, the condition like that that's made conflict

less likely because there is incentive to move to move on the on the on the

side, the two sides that more more more than than than the

power military that in Laocin Southan. Now, based ongap-

observation like intuition, I'm looking code of conduct, it's, it's not can't dis-slesaicant unidimensional. Just to, it's just to have to doleyselicantial.

One dimension is, the kind of, maybe, the other, the other, freedom of passage. The third, maybe,

some of the of the Uruousan So, it's not Bucet for everything, it's to pilaf, beingingat the per-dagangam

maritin that's in Lauchina-Slatan that for Tiansk and Japan Masing-Masink to 40-50% for them

as each Masting. How, Marnas, MAP. Mr. Pagita, something

very, important to we have to be because the nature of conflict, the nature of conflict, the conflict, of the conflict, of the power, even,

can, it's more multidimensional, not only from from the military operation, the act of war,

indact of war, the operation, now, variations from cyber warfare, software,

um, to the most, the same the most the same it's not true,

we're not our people, we're doing about code of behavior, code of conduct, uh, tatanane

that's what's called it's a effecting, all-encompassing. Uh, not just one domain,

one, one, one, because, if, if, if not, there,

there are there caruguan if there one one there's a case

is a hostile act is a sort of a kind of and how much

response can't also can't the technology but response

in the response in the military so so this code of

conduct this is it's more more comprehensive if

you you know there we've got to know that there's also that's there's again that's

something what the name the same the same ship four yeah there America America

there Japan Korea and Japan Korea and Taiwan countries negarangang people

umhousal semiconductor in between between between perskutuan so

so much diverse and multi-faceted and also need if you're making flashpoint

this have been different if you're in the law China South and

our risk is not from overt aggression but more than miscalculation

action reaction reaction which actually make a conflict

that not the conflict that not the thing the

nature of the beast nature of the problem important to we can give the answer that's

correct. If not, the answer we're not not in the challenge that's that's

Marky, I'm just read a book the title astro-politics. Astro-politics. After-ar-in-

we're- trying to try to get-mahomy about situation geopolitic. But if

we look, Elon Musk through SpaceX, has been rutsubleu-an satellites. And target of belioled is to melchurkan 40-60,000 satellites. And,

the world, for several decades, the last, it's only made sure to be below 2,000 satellites. It's a cumulative. This is a, what, manifestation from aspirations

of the power of great to more able to be more than can't be un-uasasas and in-ingat the of the

logam-mulia and, and, that's the million-an-d-dolars and planets and planets other,

it's very-cayy- with, or that it, uranium, bercalium, osmium, things that are very

very for the important the important the interests America America, America,

the Russia, and China. I can see Europea agga kind of getting

in the context in the context, the now, this I want to

bring us in the question the last how much this

for Indonesia more and the mission of endgame that is

very structural is to be able to story teller, so that the humanational and internationalization of our nationalism our, that's more than nationalism that, it's more than what can be able to say. Yeah.

Pa, we're talking, that Elon Musk and satellite launching capacity and so forth. It's making up to make us again if we're talking middle power, power. not just what's the fact that constantly changing

and theners be able to be the dynamics the pemagangue currency the currency but also the pemongangangue

now not even sameata sovereign nation states individual and entities entities non-state

pun this has been the power this means is the means

the matter is the ...emperniquing a certain outcome that's more menjol. So, this is,

if we're about our global order, international order, not like as a matter international,

but global. If international is a lot of landernerner, butahal within the States, there's also entities that

were a lot of it. Taddy that we talked about outer space and, what, scramble, that's at a lot of, negara, negara, berlomba, to mawashed resources that in there. So, really, this is something like frontier issues. I'm using the isle of frontier,

to sort of a little bit more than, because frontier is, so-wola, still, while it's just a lot of the time. Because now, we are living it. We are living it. We are living it. and not without

example in in the matter in the world and the world, the people, international, becumpull and we've been

about, how to govern how to govern, how we're inelola for the people people,

as a common, things like things like in Indonesia, and Indonesia in the whole

in the world in the world the water-bebas, for the people Indonesia is that men chanang-can-kind people-a-pomikirang

that's demilangue, diplomacy upay that's the same the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, who's not only the land IEZ

and each masing negara, also the public-bebas. How can be pastiked is for the benefit for the benefit

for the good, to the good, the good, heritage of mankind. outer space treaty about perlucity about the

conspacquaten about the area not the area not be persenjata one one of the

people reprecas the is Bapa Alata Dha later later after after

while Wattap Dubos in America Srica in P.B. So we have a long

record, a history of shaping and molding in, and how that's still

making sure the way, I'm giving example, we're talking about global south, about geopolitic,

but this also there's issues who partut we're thinking, we're thinking, how much our panang

our own thing, frontier issues, and lab policy, policy lab, like, we can come up with

identification of three, three-four that's not that's not thought, or maybe

should think, but Indonesia still have been making one of the opinion,

I think will be great because the beauty of intellectual discourse, knowledge is

no monopoly of knowledge. We all have been the same. We'll make a resarance, the ability to

be debat and and to give you and this is we are coming to the end Pagita, this forum this, Pagita, this, for me, for me, is, for me, is,

very, very, very, and rich, to give, a, um, a, uh, space, for us to make us, so if we can

make sure can some of the issue, issue, we're going to but, but in backgut. But,

Thank you very, many, many, so, I'd have been asking about Ukraine and Gaza, but I'd like, but I'm sorry, time, very much. A big hand. This is a big hand.

This is NG. This is NG.