Endgame with Gita Wirjawan - Marty Natalegawa: Runtuhnya Kepercayaan Publik: Sebuah Perspektif Geopolitika

Episode Date: December 18, 2025

Menentukan arah Indonesia di tengah perceraian Amerika Serikat dengan Tiongkok.Direkam 20 September 2025; bagian dari Endgame Town Hall 2025.#Endgame #GitaWirjawan #MartyNatalegawa-----------------Buku yang saya tulis, ‘What It Takes: Southeast Asia’, sekarang sudah tersedia dalam Bahasa Indonesia dan Inggris. Dapatkan di sini:https://books.endgame.idSudah baca? Tinggalkan review-mu di sini:  / what-it-takes  -----------------Other Endgame episodes that you might like:   • Vijay Prashad: America’s Finger-Wagging Pu...     • Kishore Mahbubani: The Biggest Mistakes of...     • John Mearsheimer: What’s Behind Biden’s Bl...  

The Kessapakaten in the cutipan that we've got to make $19% tariff, how do you know, at what cost? As a person who, as a person who, through and for example, to make sure, the result that's given to-umum-can, I'm not sure to look at the sameaguerrengedness. not have to feel

to get-guesa-gess by unilaterally imposed deadlines. In the perundinging, negotiations, the first order of business is, there is unilaterally

imposed deadlines. It's easy for us, in the world decision-making to be unday, but I think we could do, I will stop there. I was about to say something,

but I better not. Mr. Marti, thank very on the this is not inaugural, this one of the second. I'm going to start with observation that's quite

umum, but maybe need to socialization to be related with pergeser tatan of the thattannan which,

which had been bipolar, and in the end upal 2000 and in the end up it's not very-dimensional or multipolar, but as a can-a-can,

when the polarity not too much-structural. And this is dodong by revisionism that, you can't say, come from the negatting from the country that's little and then it's little,

and then it's been made manifestation in BRICS, Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa, and bebeamang, in Indonesia that's which makesingingingan aden

there's pencasionism now in one two two years this is more structur this is

my hypothesis I'm because detuman from America that's much unilateral which

identifying who can identify who can be able become people who can be

much who who can be being Now, I want to doge the hypothesis to be one, is it

true? Two, if it's true, apacalitis that's more more more more than is here to stay.

Silakant. Thank you, thank you, Pat, I'm very very happy, I'm sure with you

can be able on this hour this day and congratulations on your efforts on endgame.

I think one of one of one of the challenge that the reality that's the fact that

change is permanent so if if we have resum with with the making demicien

then it's difficult to make one one of situation that we hadaped

is at apical unipolar or bipolar or bipolar or multipolar. I'm more

percied that it's all of the buff because in a certain there's a situation in where there

wujut unipolarism that's more than bipolar, situation like bipolar, situation where multipolar. It's very much

depends on the gantonged from topic and the problem that we seepi. So,

if we We're not a need, it's not a need, not it's not a need, not sure and in fact that this is one category tataned the power,

we will be liberated. We'll be liberated. We're debasksken from trying to bring label to what we're having we. Because now, it's clear that we're saying

we're looking there's big from the country and the world so-called major powers, like America America's

from from from from and there come up like clompo like

groups. But as in lieu of our we have we have more to make

to make to make that the situation will be a constant flux

and then and there's there one situation where

we can we can pass we can't we have

been from unipolar to bipolar to bipolar to multipolar other than this

in a way constant what name the turbulence and disorder and there's Indonesia should be

to be able to be a power in it. What is we see we look situation that's quite

quite between the same the country and the community America Sericat

in there is very not are full with contend because the unlawful America and the

government of the government and again we're going to happen and also we'll see the

clomp new, bricks and the rest of a permanent state of turbulence and change in

us. We're seeing since the Runtook the tomb Berlin

in 2009 with keyakiness in America Sericat as a power that's important

they're as a can be able to make the campaign to to to

be able liberal that with liberal that with liberalism but

with with the way that the not be In my in panang of

my own, this is kental with things that things that kind of aggapritical.

Hal hal hal that nata in people in the people, and that complicitas

for the pentingan genosida. And this if, I think I,

in landdasi as-ak-an- -a-an- -a-o- but keyakinen their with capacity

to be to be able to write or menulis or menulis through because they control

the people people who are thinking, lewetting, lewet media, even through performance.

Now, what? What? For, we all, to us, to be reprojectsically

Nurani. so, agar nurani this can be translated to recalibration to recalibration to bejointed

this, the world or tatan the dunya more magnanimous. Yeah, in our hemat us, legitimacy,

that, source is, trust and, and, the, the,

and the capability to make empowering the other as a same of the other people are

there there's there's a legitimacy and there's there's a person about the

not be not because we're because we're as a same that we're

so much America America America America, whether America Russia,

or Russia, or Russia, or if whatever any can be earn merrihy

trust that from the country mitrana. and it's not be able to beckxed even if it's able to bechopathe to bechopathe,

the bigiacan tariff, the bigiacan of military and soothan but at the end, this is just it can be reaithed in the creation and this is I think I'm giving people

like Indonesia to be able to be per-peran because sources of power, currency of power so dewa-dewa-it-a-the-seye-we-the-we-the-weights the power military, diplomacy

also is very important because it's a force multiplier to give

the power more than the smata that we see from the economic, the power

military, and this is the power that is the people who Indonesia

has this the power diplomacy so we can we can punch

above our weight but if if there some deficit, trust,

and in the matter international, then we can't be per and try to make

the country other than we're doing the deficit this is being increased to have the power

of the power of the example of America Serican but there are

that kind or the sort of structural that is menankis Nurani

that's the puracts by majority of from the planet if we're talking maybe maybe

last night or today tally for the number of people who want to make sure

to be two-state solution for the kind of the kind of the

the the up 140-an but but then at the the

structure the in some years, this is still with structure or mechanism that,

if I'm really, I'm not not much- money, and it's more than more than

minotonging minorities. What? What, it can be a kind of recalibration

so, agarer mechanism it's more embhacked and the kind of and the

power of there. There's some some kind of governance deficit. Tatananan international

not even incermink the dewasan this has been outdated

so we're we're we're credibility the public public the

public demakement demak become uh be uh... and we

look and what the unhapinginan and harapan from the

people international in the human can be very much is just to hushetka,

by the two countries that very big-in-a- this is one one of the one thing we can, how we can, how we can, how we can,

how we can, how we can't make sureminked the world that this is right in and the problem. It's really

the other the other, the country, which men want to bring in the samean pandanan.

We can't I'm not to know there's a new other there's to have to have the

different of what what is because there's there's trying and

and this this the reality of our world today, the deweissue

and there there's the I think I'm another Dewan Keamanan

This is really difficult to change with system veto and only the gilintir of the

country who have fact and it and sayang one or two other

or probably will make veto whatever that will beto whatever would be

tabulasi how much it. To the again there is more there more than

more more than the mechanism that to representations from the majority is more than hearer.

The way to make up-upac-upus or, probably not regulate, make-mature the use law

veto, should be done for years. Namun, tentu-in- this is due to-

by the government-N-Fever and they're not-in-fif-in-fif- -in-in-vety-o-o-pun-er-n-n-er-pun-n-er-pun-ed-ovenang-est. because this is something that they're very much meuncunged

their so if you're from political pressure or sanction I think mustahil they're always trying to try to

so the only way at this is moral pressure that's it has had there situation there's that should not

not imperbolecked the use of which it's and it's been that's in Palestine, in the Timur-Tenha

in the form of the action that be gambarcant as a genocide, I think is, it's, really,

the situation that must have the action with the community international. But as you know,

we're just and then-n-er- upa-upers-a- did-lac-and-d-d- -d-d-menthack-up-sit- by the same one-negoti Angota

Doan Kamanam-Nampi-BB There are there? There's a if we're now we're looking there

is fris between a rha or the pointinganism with a rha and the

major or make America Great Again which which it's been landaskan with the important to

more insular can disuling diri, insolarsisical not doing externalization, not making peperangan.

But what has beenjave Donald Trump beencap to make pucat to the mainpinan this justru

externalization is still in Gaza, and also to some extent in Ukraine. Now, apache

and the frixty between two cubing, between maga and zionism, it's maybe there's prospect to make

confuhack to make sure and recalibration and recalibration the government. Memang, dynamica in America

Sericat very, um, imparue the the condition international. Apaka America

that's a situation is isolationist, that didn't be involved in conflict conflict international, or even America

who can try more prescriptive the fact that but I'm especially on situation in the situation in the I think

there's some some kind of casinambungan if any the government in America the position their

position in the situation in the middle almost never ever ever be this this is a

miscrayan but I'm there can't there can't there can't

the American America America America, and we're enough is enough, that's enough, that's the fact that

they're going to revising the biose the billiaccings. For example, this week before, there will be there,

the Dundalof PPP, as you know, every year, October, September October. And one of what,

the decision that is done by the government America SIRK, is not give

visa to the President Mahmoud Abbas, Palestinian, to come to New York, to PPP

to be able to be able to give to make sure this one this one part of the reason

that America has made with PB to become the town PBB but again

it's again mennuching butap the top of the upia diplomacy so, to come

to give to make to make the panpaking the adapal international give Rintang

by America SIRICAT. This is something I think very much very much Meprehaten this

this is this is making garis about he the depravity of foreign policy in America

SRIKat and I still believe that diplomacy is one-and-a- diplomacy is one-and-y

that can abate whatever we saksican I'm going to be alic to percerion between

America Sericat. We're on 6 January in 2012 2005 to make the percumulan

BRICS one of five more of countries, Indonesia, including Ethiopia,

Iran and other and other, this is this is a from the inter-national or geopolitic our,

which is to be being, the time in the conference in the Conferencing Bandung, Asia-Africa. While, that,

to find, merrihe the between Tionk and India, the demayan, predamayan, and America with

Tionk, but to Mendiang Bung Karno, to make the penning to the

public but byproduct of it is to create option to create we can't

beaun and this this manifestation in in non-aligned movement and this

and it always manifestation in the upa and action we are to

be alliances with barat with Timur If the more, if you're in the United, ASEAN plus, Barat, OECD, APEC, and other, I mean, I'm ujypotes.

Apak, is, whether, this, can be able to beurraying in context percerion that's more intense or the truth, and America, for several decades,

to the time. So, in our behalf of us, we have taken, we have to beaigibility that we're able to be able to be able to make sure to be able to be able to be able to get in, so much so much as a matter in between America with the Hong Kong, America, Tokyo. we first and up the most

we have to what we want to be what we're what the what's what the and then

that's that will be the kind of our and up and

what the and after we've got to what we're having to know what we're we have to know what we're even about.

after we we're being a gauda briggs, I'm trying to rabber-ruban and be think

what this really that we're in there. Kewally semata to turn up, come and

and hadir in the partemone because the country like Indonesia that you said you

about the up we over the conferns of Africa, in 15 and so-

we're we're never semata making up the numbers We're not as much that's just as far as as far as

the same we're always with people with people with prasas with initiative shaping and molding what we're

here is not just not even we're here but there there but there there's blueprint there,

there what we want we we're upy and we'reaic and we're the part the concept global south

we can't contract out to the other, or if it's briggs and the rest of them, they're making them, because Indonesia is that when it's made penetuousness. We're not able to see what, only, um, making-cute agenda or, or, or the un-ignan from the other than the other.

But, the concept swing is, we're able to, we can't, in era, where the era, in which we're not, because we're really bit of

being, in a, um, men'tukan our, I was before before I was really inspired

when I was really inspired when I was about there about the gagasan the thinking about what, uh,

sculptor that's actually there's beener there, and semata only menemucked it, yeah. I'm,

I'm, I think, if I'm in in the field of diplomacy, if I'm thinking for every problem, for every challenge,

it's always there's solution, yeah, certainly. Tinga how we're working hard to

reveal that solution. Waging peace. So, we're really really, have to be duang

for under the same like the country, bejuer, for the country,

America's the United now, merubah name or nomenclature from Department of Defense and the Department of War, even though secondary nomenclature, not completely derupe,

but there's secondary. It's kind of menhutored in the form of the country. So, Indonesia, I think, has been shown the sosok that better. We're peaceful in our orientation, realist in our outlook,

to understand the world that is very, very, but we also have had idealism to make the other I'm

saying this is this observation in the in the the abat the 17 as a time,

the transition from dynasty Ming to dynasty Qing, the sikap Tianok to domestic

d'ididivis that it's merugick it in Asia Tengara because it's not countervailing force

to have the power of the power of the world who mayn't fortunately beckally with the

powering technology, the power of economy and the power of military. This this is

the after the three and a half centuries of humiliation for Asia Tengarah. Colonialism

by English in Malaya, Singapore, Brunei, and Malaysia, by Frenches in Indochina, Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos, and Myanmar, by English, Indonesia, by Belanda, Timor, Timur,

by Portuguese, or Portugal. Now, to thepansion, semestinia, as far as geostrategic, we're important to keep-penting. To keep-taping, between two two quat

both of the whether that is that either either and Tionk or siapapun. Agar

the willia Asia Tengara this is stable and I'm aga-agued in cubu that

Tijuana Tijuana Kyi not can make make domestication like what we've sacksikas in the

abate 17 and I do Kubu that I'm that is B'A not can to do domestication.

So, soing externalization by the Hongk and Barat, the garris-mering America-Serick, this will bea countervailing

that can beaulgant in Asia-Tengarah which is total with 700 million people, activity economy that not small, $4 trillion.

Now, if premise or hypothesis to be partangue can, I'm thinking, this sine qua-on. to we can

be to make the drajat our our own the degree we're with the

peningattingaten with penicat activity, how we can't make that we can't make up

more more and more and how we can't make we can make in Rantai Nile

how we can't in tatanan geopolitic. How, Marty? Pananan. We have used a slaghervailing.

If I'm using the slagliberium, especially dynamic equilibrium, that, as it, we're in front of the power. The country that's so much an endowmented in the kawasan, not eveninging can't the other to be able to move and make up the potency that's really demilikinia.

But I also don't believe. I'm sure about the concept balance, balance of power. So la, what we're trying to achieve is a same kind of perfect balance, where there's a certain. Because each country, there's not a lot of trying to achieve balance. They always strive for dominance,

in order to help us. So, I always want the most ungul and the most be the best we can hope for is a same same equilibrium

which is dynamic because I'm like I'm saying I'm saying about the same power to

always always be change so we cannot we cannot we cannot we can't we can't

not make freeze frame it we can snapshot and say that we're making that this is the patanae

the same perfect now there's there's there can't be has been

up issue it, the topic and the topic the time there's

there's kind of Chonk in the times, Japan be a repengue

and the topic but what we need is equilibrium which that I'm mean that

is I'm so that's so we can have some some kind of some kind of different different than

some kind of predictability of behavior behavior, so that there miscalculation, there's crisis that be coming to be incident

that's I think this room for Indonesia to be able to be a bigion of the upy

making upy strategic stability because if we look in Hongk that you said as a lot theater

mannaping in the area there's there footprint the Hongk not. Apaca Asia Uttara,

apaca in Asia Southan, Eurasia, Tionk is all predominant. There footprint it.

But it means it will bearty will be able and start merta throw its weight around.

We have able to try to make up power the country, America,

America, Russia, and in being, but there, there,

guard rails it. And, besaying, but still have tatanan how we bestying. And this is I think that

we're all upyakant. You were one of the architect of Arsep. Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership

that we brought to make the first when Indonesia was being the state ASEAN. Manfaatness

now, It's just to be reshack, 2025, 14-tawn from, from 2011. So, what, that has something that has had investations that from before me. My question is,

the question is, what we're doing we're taking we're taking, we're taking, that's about it from, 30, 30, time from now. And I'm struggling to find it.

because what I see is many the events and activities but where is the beef?

Where is the beef? Manaana Indonesia, 2003 menanam monadal ASEAN community we're in 2003

that until now even 25 we're still we'reasaking the right the smangatness and relevancy

Arsep 2011, East Asia Semi 2005. In 2003 we're going to be Ketua ASEAN. Now, now, baru two years.

And I'm struggling to make it what, momentous decision what we're doing what we're doing at that. This is I Mawalt Leadership,

the peopleimpinpinpinning and the thinking, through forum like this, I think can be able to comebunked. If premise or hypothesis

that's the equilibrium, it can be columbed with duration that long, this is capitalized by us in Indonesia, we're in Asia-Tengarra. Capitalization is this is related to how we can make model economy

and model technology. Relation or hubungan economy we're in Hong Kong It's very. Disproportionately, dibundinging our human our economy with America,

with the Hong Kong, the abuongan asia-Tengara, it's $1 trillion, the value per-dagan, the year. With America's-R-Sircat, it's only $530,30,000. And, the speedan and accelerations

that's so much with the economy or per-daggagan between Asia-Tengara with economy, it's more than, to whatever to be with America

and Asia Tengarra. The train has left the station. But ironically, I'm looking at justru, we're going to bedick Tiongok for the importance of allocations technological capital.

If economy, it's a given. But technology is far more relevant because they're able to efficiencies and the good-cantican barang and jasa. Lebe moreh,

more, more apic. And this is more than the majority of Asia-Tengara that the amount of per-o-parder, but still in-bawak $13,205 dollar threshold

for modernity or for developed economy. In Asia-Tengara, it's only two economy that's the amount of the per-orang-a-and-a-tif. that's Singapore and Brunei. Even Malaysia is still 12,000,

Indonesia 5,000, Philippines, 3,000, but Myanmar, Cambodia, Laos, that's, it's below 2,000. Tentunuch, if we're with the hypothesis to bedick Tionk for technology,

we also have to bedic America's America, the economy. Because, because liquidity. It's, It's not so much, because they

can't check up money for 100 years since the war the first of the firsts, 1914. But we can't

get to the obvious reasons. It's the peneguacan the hookum and the less capacity translation

from the notpastien to be quantification, how can be quantification, how can be givenylay. Cobabab,

this is, this is, in the importance our diplomacy to we can capitalizeer model technology and model

economy, and the India and Asia-Tengara this is or premise or hypothesis that the

equilibrium will still there. One thing I think is more more, uh,

booktines in some of the time the time, we've been doing, um, about the discussion,

is how the domain, like technology, like economy in the trade, termed, have been weaponized,

has been been being a part of the so to to, what we

said to add what we to think, it's, in the people, in the

technology, America, There's always there awareness about geopolitical exposure because there are kerentananan that we can create when we're, as longinginginghamang-hung-hubungan without a certain what awasan more loas about what implications. Otherwise, what will be happening is a series of micro-decisions, a number of the

of theputusiness and the micro that's the same we're in macro, we're

we've put all our eggs in one basket. So, we have some kind of kerentan and this

is a situation where the government we all we have have been

as a whole of government exercise. Bucan such sectoral, perdaggan industry,

technology, but there's a NACODANN-N-N-HRUS to look to look at a certainan to make make sure that we're not to make sure that too resandar to one of one of the country

that's right we'll see it's indeed, imagine, Pat, Pa is Pagena, Pa between President Xi Jinping and President Trump in the old day, in the decades past, when two capel of this

like this is about, we assume, we'll assume it can be about strategic armaments, nuclear armaments. Becerate about TikTok, supposedly, on potential disinvestment from Biden's in America, the United States.

So, technology, this space that's becoming a big part of high politics, and in Indonesia, really, really, has up its game, I think we have to know that we're

our things that all this there are context there are the penings of non-trade, non-economic and our geopolitical antenna

has been the people, miscellal the expacaten in cutipan that we capy with America

Sericat gunn't to make 19% tariff reciprocal So-called trisive-pucal tariff with America the United States, how do you know,

at what cost, to have access that we've given to America's-Ricat. I don't know what what what is what that's

in the but as a person who d'u and then-nors to do not continue to doorkingan and negotiations

to beckar the result that I struggle I struggle I'm hard wudit

from the smangat perundingan it that this a result from

the perundingan between two countries give and take as if this

one-sided maximalist stance now if we We have context that's

more the way that you say that you're saying that we're

not too we're not too too in trying in trying to almost at

any cost to make the 10% that now you

see China India maybe the example that more

relevant for we they allow time to proceed

So, it's not, I don't have to be undergues by unilaterally imposed deadlines.

In the perunding, negotiations, the first order of business is, not there unilaterally

imposed deadlines. You can basically ignore what they say, but once you actively

comply with that notion, should, should, have, had calaset because we're sure-ola

so on the other due rest in the power my main point being is that was that was that was

perspective that way we're supposed to be to get we we're we're

we're our strength equilibrium we're the amount we're the ability to make sure

we're it's it's much it's much it's in the world decision-making to be unday-and-a-and-a but I think we could do

I will stop there. I was about to say something, but I better not. Mustinia the moderator, Rocky Grung. But I, but I'm also, I'm supposed to be a lot, that, that's

the same the conspacat on about the business that's

pretty transactional at best tactical, not strategic, and kind of engendung

unsur unsur that besipat jank panang. Now, I'm still

be think that the way to impose tariff with formula or formulation that's very senerhanna

this is a can be the last their last thing their own re-industrialization but I'm a bit skeptical about re-industrialization in America America

this will be in the time or even in the middle because if they're serious want to make make industrialization they can't What's just

did look upon by the Hongk. Tiongok should be maybe 50% or more from the public the market

the market. Not because cheap labor. They're got to geter from the narration uph

or the work or the work and the narrative supply chains plabuance

the labuant the plabuan udaran car apinia the landanan electrification

yeah seamlessly even can be argumentatisically that's the uph the work of the work there's far more than than the United

and the majority in Asia Tengara. And I'm not glitgaken of the publicing that's been done by America the U.S.

Srikat to make a a way to aspirationalization this is this is upy. So I'm a bit bingong.

This is what strategy to the just to I'm just to see that the way

the more than the way systemic or systematic to belemak dollar and they're

going and they're not upon to buy the gunned money because it is more

more than pre-existing capabilities of their I agree wholeheartedly it is a situation

that's such to we're very difficult to we're what sometimes

tariffs is to think about the way to make at least the problem economy

industrialization and so but sometimes sometimes it's also it's a political

weapon essentially if we're if we're looking about India, decenacan 50% or

or it's anti- percent because India do-gap to buy, what, uh,

uh, the ban-bacar from Russia. So, it's a political weapon. So, it's a,

there's inconsistency in the end-cuitance about this purely economic response, policies, response to economic

situation, or, uh, there, uh, uh, um, um,

um, one thing, if I may just turn the seat around. We've got to be able to be able to the last time. You talked a lot about the part of the pening of the prananan pendigant. Pentinginging this, especially

asia-Tengara, to raise to the next level, the problem governance. And, today, in panel before you talked that length about the matter of the matter of merit and the rest of it. So, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so,

so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, we've already that is a problem or

the problem or the case in the context asia the country

we're how we promote mobility and the time

um upon um upon the same in the same

I'm I know this something that we're that we say

we're saying I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm The language discergency

in the Asia-Tengara. This is not. Look just, score piece. Cappayan lingual, capyance for children of 15 years. Singapore. Number one in the

one, number one, the other, number one, the other, in Asia, Dengara. Number 30-an in the world. Hanyahuas and Vietnam that in the atas,

Rata Rata Rata Duna. Indonesia, number 69, from 81, one, Cambodia, from 81 from 81

of 81 of the even Thailand, Malaysia, Philippines and other than other than other than

the level non-tershare. At the level tertiary I said I'm saying that there's only one university

in Asia Tengara from 8,000 universities that menemot in Pernicat 20th at the world

and it's in Singapore and that other than the other the way there. Now

there's there a longca that's concrete to makeurgy divergency

the public. And I not see it can be leampar, to make

to the policy in Asia Tengara and mingat neurosis and psychosis

politic that is extant or exis in the majority from global South.

Munkin must be thinker can be partimank to do not even kind of a sikap or a sikap or a bit

subranationalist at the level organization ASEAN. ASEAN is very much. Consensus building, non-intervency, non-interference,

it's not-briousa. But if I'm learning charter, it's, there referencey that, that they can make sure that

if it's ...theircuit with how they can manage tantaned dunya. I'm looking, that's only tantan... ...tantangan dunia, this evolutiones as much exponential, which is related to geopolitic,

technology, economy, and... ...in-munkin. Yeah, maybe we have to be able to make make... ...andinging... ...divorgency to beergare we more collective and cohesive. Yeah, want-not-not-moh, have to do

kaji ulang. Princiip subsidiarity that's the charter ASEAN. Now,

this I want to ask back to Amarty. Apak this is pragmatic just if I

think I can be result if Singapore is because best practice peddick

is there is tertiary and non-tersher and Indonesia and Indonesia that

Indonesia is 43% from population and economy If

if I if I'm I'm not asking this to people who are who are working in the ASEAN, they can

give them can give them other ways of and the way of and the work of making, you know, mrs. M. B.P.

Mendorong, the bidamendidaping Antarer ASEAN. But, the reality, we're all we all over so I'm

so, I'm conjur can't to be a couple of people the country Asian that, if I'm talking about them, is to follow the citizen. Cobra, at this time this, the same thing is, the siphate-no.

So, there, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, , uh, uh, uh, part of the, uh, sectoral dialogue. But they're saling EGP with the work on the other than. Namun, if we're delusurie, follow the Asian citizen,

will be able to look at the bottleneck, bottleneck. If you're, if you're someone want to imagine penedican

perguruan in the other other than the initial bottlenecks or, or,

what are the initial bottlenecks the constrictions is about? Apaka about funding, about

the mutual recognition from certification their, the problem of

travel and the rest of travel and just that. And, and goosurie and including

the abate that's the other people people as far are the

bottlenecks in the how can how can make sure can't sometimes I'm

I'm official dem um the the long long

and uh resim it is a kind of depending with

what what that what has done with it we can

we can We talked about non-interested, what we're talking about, principle supranationalism or non-interference. We're looking forkempangan geolac politic in a number of nations, Asia-Tengara,

air, this. When, there's suruant from anyone, either from the government, or, without a certain declaration or agreement,

there solidarity that's solidaritance that's, that's from the society from the same in

the same people in the people who using technology and using social media

to mennuching to make the pedulianne so in a way it's almost as if

governance formal governance it's outmoded that's got stigal with the pace of

technology and the comfort level generation that's it can make

make sure to be able to be communication I hope that is a solution

in a way that that is a way things will take place naturally and with

or without the governmental support because this I think there is something that's

something kind chaiaian the urge to be able to engage one another

yeah If, if, if I'm not enough, bottleneck that's not a, for the penitain penitism, or penedpanan penedicent, it is apathy for the penitemingan memuliacan profusy Singapore is very

bulat, memuliacan profesy guru. And it's di-ecori with capacity and the unkindan for makesechartrakan guru. I'm looking at the other, in ASEAN, and in Global South, it's

there's empathy to memorialing uproof profusy guru. It's a matter of a bottleneck that's structural. And it's maybe be found,

to try, cat, dictacy or structure to make rehabilitation. Yeah, I can't be back a book barunia,

for, to be inspired by your ideas. One question the last, Mr. Marty. This I'm going back

again to thesis how we can biddick Tyeongk for the technology, Mbidik

Barat for the important economy. Mugin' not? For reactor nuclear

did bangun in one one of China, using technology Tionk but the penanaan

from America. In one one of Asia Tengara not in Indonesia. Bica.

Binae. If in Indonesia, can be in Singapore, Brunei. If for Indonesia,

I, I think I rather than if I'm sorry to we're talking about trust level

and I'm in the way of governance because if when I'm going to talk about nuclear power

this can there is hardly any room for for mediocrity has a country like Japan with

and all mental caretie and good practices it must be sometimes there's

problem with this. I'm not sure whether we are there yet. I hope I'm, muddha

I'm, I'm, muddhaan I'm, but unless we have absolute reservoir of

confidence that's absolutely invaluable, I'm really, I'm not someber renewable

line that's more than more more amaz to we can't

try to develop to come back from if we're this again again again

again the problem that's the geopolitical exposure if we're

building technology this there there either orner if

we similar like technology like if we if we make

for system the the people we think the

the America the United States will look it as something with

full of reprehatine so we need to be smart in making sure that

what the technology and the sum of data that we try

try together. geographically neutral. I'm in in fact that. for usus for Indonesia, I would say thanks but no thanks. For now. Thank you.