Endgame with Gita Wirjawan - Mengapa Hukum yang Buruk Boleh Ditentang? - Bivitri Susanti | Endgame #260

Episode Date: March 30, 2026

Masyarakat yang cerdas tak akan patuhi hukum yang buruk. "Good people disobey bad law," kata pendiri Pusat Studi Hukum dan Kebijakan (PSHK)—Bivitri Susanti.Ketika itu terjadi, legitimasi hukum pun terguncang. Lantas bagaimana kita harus menyikapinya?Pahami penjelasan Bibip (panggilan akrab Bivitri) dalam episode ini selengkapnya:0:00:00 - Intro0:02:18 - Kenapa belajar hukum0:05:56 - Titik balik0:09:20 - Dualisme hukum0:17:29 - Legal vs Legalistik0:20:35 - Kaitan hukum & pendidikan0:30:56 - Kepatuhan vs Ketertiban0:41:08 - Kriminalisasi kebijakan0:50:09 - Makna & strategi aktivisme1:00:42 - Cara berpikir1:09:53 - Board of Peace1:19:44 - Populisme & dampaknya1:24:22 - “Saya masih optimis”1:29:11 - Feodalisme1:31:04 - Ide besar, jangan sempit tafsir#Endgame #GitaWirjawan #BivitriSusanti------------------Buku yang saya tulis, ‘What It Takes: Southeast Asia’, sekarang sudah tersedia dalam Bahasa Indonesia dan Inggris. Dapatkan di sini:https://books.endgame.idSudah baca? Tinggalkan review-mu di sini:https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/241922036-what-it-takes------------------Episode lain yang mungkin Anda sukai:https://youtu.be/jrpsebCJ0_o?si=ADhUv9oqXiJIEA2qhttps://youtu.be/Yw1Ivy1VqUo?si=r-_iaE18AcaXkoK-https://youtu.be/_A6x_21ojD0?si=BzrxU7PcZGcBla78------------------Special thanks to our ‘Future Narrators’ channel members:Mariko Yoshihara, Yemotto IBRAHIM, hobi kluyuran, Fajar Prasetyo, Dyah Firgiani, keetkaat, Excel-lent, Arie Gunardi, Yayi Trisnawati D, Teddy Chow, Wwertyssnb, Crispy_Cracker58, Priyanithi Dharsania Negara, Widi Aphrian, hndraable, hendro trihatmojo, Muhammad Taufik Evendi, QunÔºáan Syukrilah, azam adnani, Charles Andrew Tang, Ariyo Arinsa Putra, Reda Bellarbi, Jaz Simbolon, Muhammad Ismail Mubarak, Stefanus B. W., KATE WOLSKA, pixelcadet, Itje Chodidjah, Geralt Fajar Bukan, Jack Duan, Elmi CK Ong, Lucy March, Anggun Noventina, Irawan Purwono, Krishna Putra, Agnes Pranindita, Darso Arafa, nazaruddin nasir, 747sgw, benget yakub, Patricia S, ferra febrianti, De Guda Kessa, Gusko Adnyana, mjk939, Jerry Budiman, Mawan Darmawan, diah anggraini, Ainur Rofiq, Adrian Baskoro, Bambang Haryanto, Ezwan Zakaria, Marilyn C, Kianti Darusman, Revolution R, liza dewi, Joanna FKG, Susanto Uno, Taswin Munier, M Firaldi Akbar Zulkarnain, Super ‚ÄúBuupy Pub‚Äù Bondon, Ferdy Reza, Elnasdi Moda, Hendry Ahen, Aria Widyanto, Ilham R, Ayu Arman, Haju Ara Podcast, Flores Exotic Tours, Meilisva AA Taniel, nonik martyastuti, Niki S, Anita Amalia, hardianiati, Salwaluna Maryam, Dewi Risnawati, birgietta katherine, Derry Harnanda, Aleyandra Rizka Amalia, Ridwan Sakidja, Rita Sahara, Sanityas Prawatyani, Teddy Sutendi, erna girirachman, Alvin Rivaldi, Ronny Wijaya, Sam K Nugraha, Arif R3 Vibration, FBC Ponto, Stella sinaga, chandrawati Saragih, Kawal Jakarta, Elmi Dignity, Yufud Rahayun, Calvin Go, Freddy Wijaya, Toto Parminto, Bambang Made, Nova Rahayu Yusuf, Oktavianto Dwi Wicaksono, Muhi Futon, Sophia Alizsa, fsoenardi, Hadzunda Laga, ULFA, R K, Dina Siswa, Daniel Tagu Dedo, adam fadrian, muhammad afif, Okvina Juita, Yoggi Dinata, Nofliyana, NOVEDY HUSAINI, Kacamata Indra, Asyraf Mursalina, Cindy Permatasari, tanto thesman, Jarry Rinaldy, RACHMAD ARIFUDDIN AMKL, eka nurlita, Arief widyanto

At least one, I think, I think that's not only one after a few years. The bigiaghan, it's, that's just did do not be able to do. There's not partisipation, not there's a partanguant-yawaband also. And, when we're going to critic, it's, you know, you're melangar-hook, this.

So, imagine-khan-bawar-whom, that, if you've got used used because of the samegum people who's in person, people are there's always under the law-undang did just for the penning oligarchy.

And we're in-lawful-day-olde people, I mean, we're not have wonang as far as the law, not a country, not have money to be it, and so-tuce-na, and so-nus-nation. But it's not because of what about

people that when you're going to make puttta and merampas not peru tank not peru senjata to make kertas namagny hum and then you can get anything

you want basically I don't like a way politic to make shortcut for penagacan hukum hello, my men, And I'm so much

that book I'm about what it takes South East Asia is already in the basis in Indonesia and the language. Bucco it can be developed can meloeybts.endgame. ID and the tocow book

the top of the show. Hello, time, today we're going to gettankan Bivitri Susanti as the founder from PSHK. Bip, thank you. Bic, can't come.

With snag-athing. Like, I'm like, from the life of the life. From the world. From-to-since-h-h-kut-d-luck-d-l. Okay. Maybe from PSHK, too, because, like, yeah,

because there's not-tahs-a-h-h-h-h-h-h-hocan-kebishehaka. The U.S.H.A.S.U.A. But at all right, that's actually, because I'm going to be able to be in Jakarta, a lot of Jaxel, then, because of the other than

people who are not, so even, I can't say the people who are myroman, PNS, like, Bapa, my, and,

Jemannes, I'm, P&S, I'm, P&S, I'm, A. At-Home, Mom, so, yeah. So,

so, I'm just I'm going to bea'is-a-a-a-1, because Bapa-Sahe because Bapa-Saha-Sahe because Bapaa-Saheer because of Bapaa-Sahe after. So, I'm sure that

the opportunity so, I'm really, I'm sure, and when it, if, if, if, if, again, it, the, it, the, the time-in-a-old-old-a-old-old-a-old.

Back-a-old, I'm-old. In-3-9-3, okay. I've gothapagosology, because of Jakarta, yeah, then there's a time that's no-lawful, this, this, the, hum-necum, this, more probability-nobotidate. I'll ganty, I'm back again to SMA my, Sma-S-M-A-S-M-E-P-P-E-P-E-P-E-P-E-UKUKUK, Yeah, yeah, I'd, ha-hap-lian.

So, the thing-Logic, and I'm-P-C-Namany, yeah. So, I'm-P-C-N-N-A-N-N-P-E-C-N-N-N-N-A, so. So Ipa, but I'm going to bea three. So I'm a biologi. Sama, one other, I'm not. What I'm going to. Now, so, but I think, I'm going to be sure, I'm going to be surjana and must be murrah.

So, so I'm going to be a good and get, that's what, yeah? I, I'm not a clue. Professi hookum is, how do you? The other than the way. The most of the people, so you're in person.

So, yeah, P&S in the pequerhation umum, so, yeah. Now, jaddinger, and janeer, that's no clue, same, and, long, and, time, yeah, and, it's not a lot, and, and, you know,

unique, one big, one big of the because as a majorasyshire who I'm seniorly and seniority many have worked under and the family I just didn't even be able to, I'm sure to be a lawyer who's kind of,

yeah, cita-cita-say, that's just, lawyer-caya, how-n't-n't-a-cure-a-cure-a-cuhn, I'm-cure-business. And I'm serious-in, It's very serious, so much, it's just about, because it's really, after you've been given to beaughan-cum-passar-modal. Wow. Tingat berate, what, didawar-in?

Begit-mall-lilus. So, I'm supposed to do-tawn. As-Dos just status-nia, not... Yeah, just ma'am-asar-haw-dal, two-tawn. And, awalness, I'ma-a-a-gang-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-farmes. Magang in bank, TBCK, so, so corporate secretary staff. So, really, really, hushemusiness, but... Cuma, 78, 98, that's turning point,

that's really. That's what I'm not that happy to work in a company or law firm that corporate, because maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe I'm, because of the other than, yeah, from the other than, but I'm not sure enough, this, this, must be able to be able to be here. And, when that, the person, young, around the person, who's oftenerer than people, like, work in organization on the

government, like, penitia, all the same, there's, there's been LBH, It's in the 70s. But in the bit of the not in the time, now it's been back. Yeah, I'm thinking about very much,

there's probably, I'm going to be able to make the family I'm like, as how much, as much, I'm trying to data,

I'm doing, I'm doing the school, the humaner, I'm doing the community of that. Kereakak.

Then, PSHK. That's from the last seven-that-that-h-h-h-hundred. That's a certain-signor, senior, senior, if they were... If they're, if they're... ...there's a lot firm, lawyers, like. So, they're... Yeah, yeah, we're here, we're going to be reformation hookum.

Because all of... ...torned it, in reformation politic, reformation economy. Yeah, all, same, but reformation... ...but reformation... The lawylus, there's not there's that there's a lot of the Yeah. So, really, not there's money

from corporation or what, founders just who are cheap in. If I, because I'm actually mathisual, I can't chip in, I'm like, I'm taking care, and the end up again, and it's help, bantue, bantue, when that people, transparency,

Indonesia, oh, many, much, that, MTI, yeah, now, is not active again, making concept. The first is the first time the President in PATHassoharto.

And it's like to implementations. Dachabut all of it, and so I'm so, so I'm happy. And, actually, I'm going to do. Reset soal amendment constitution, reset, reset, all the same, to include in the team

Pembaruan Mahama Agung. So, So much more than so forth. Before we've gothaping, when we've gothue, how about Bibbamuanguangu? Wibbungamu, and when it's repangil

in 2009-7. There's a comment or observation from them? They, see, menduking just, yeah. Okay. I'm rasa, I'm just like that now, because

the people-tua-sai, I'm I'm sure you especially for me. because of the people space is a little like a lot of kind of different

I'm not too. The other handker so much, the family my own back to 97-98 I'm supposed demu-demo

and I'm never put in depok inip in salemba sometimes they're just but I'm sorry I'm doing this, because I think, this is like, this is like, I'm gongilan sejara.

So, so I know, batasasan, don't worry, that's it. But they're not, uh, not, not, not much, what, yeah, or ampirtanagan. This is maybe as backdrop for the paracaping our, And so much there's a book that's quite interesting to mehro corridor,

the famous Robinson, the winner Nobel, which makes illustratersikan that for actualization the value

peradabance mannapun, kapanpun, apakly that's, the value buda, the way

technology, the value geopolitic, that is that ishimbanguant between the same the lawah the samebanger

the peneguangucus Yeah Yeah, right So, it's not going to be actualization Nilai technology Actualization Nile Economy

Actualisation Nilai Social, Buda, Politic Kipolitic If there Keebankan If there's aembangan If you're repug, it's despotic or is watered, leviotent, levayton to naga,

that's how to imbanger. This is it, how much, how to the way? For Indonesia, to, it, can't actualisersershick, from different perspectives, economy, social, culture, technology, politic, and geopolitic. In the more classic, actually, is a gagasism. that's a lot of the same.

That's called democratic values also be judged by rule of law. If not, they're not going to be something that's good for society.

Kere kre, kre, like, the gagasan besarer of republicanism. So with that's, maybe, maybe, because of the other than I'm but, I'm affirmation the question that. Let's say, like,

that's being, I'm not really, I'm notherous, yeah. One, there's phenomena that's very, and it's been written, in literature global, maybe in Indonesia, people, people, embassacany with

way that different, but, really, point is, of the law like that's like a lot of kri-kraumares in English, barang-kally, yeah. But what's more lugas if you're looking literatorial

of law. And then, what's the means with weaponization of law, of law, of course, when the amount the power of the power and

that's not-beckuasa, it's in-tanking-the-tankan-hack-n-hack-n't-hack-hung. So, I think, has a rule of law, one of law, one of the law, equality before the law. But,

many people make up that equality before the law means, someone's all around the law, but if we're galley like philosophy the,

the actually what I'm being decataken is, the law human retubes, menetaraking people who naturally not setar.

even in physically, there's there that's there that's about, there who's there's a guy, there's a lot of people, and setership. There's the other than, there's a good, and soothiness. Justro, the task ofcum is matriacan people that so. So, imagine that,

if, if, when, if you're in self-gunakan, did get a geniating somejata by people who have put upuasana, the example of, it's,

when, it's very, It's really undang-and-and-a-ohy and we're in-law-bearsing, I mean, I'm-bishoply-orang-a-womened-a-nagre we're-wain-a-were-hcust-hore-noguot-negara, not-cuh-noguad, not-pun-cuit-n-n-certain-old-old-old-cust-a-certain.

I'm not when it's not even if you're the other than quite quite while 178 halamane. It's made 788 undang land other than the parliquitia. The right of the parliant of the

the government, the endang, I'm going to be because I'm going to bea crossal nearer December 2020 in 2012, the same we're

longah, out of Perpoo. And, then, Perpoo, who's the under the Act of

Act Act BWMN, UNDN, UNDN, TNI, that if if we're when we're planning,

plan, the makna from the passal it, we can look how the, the,

the, the, people, Biasa, it's actually it's about under the law undang.

So, there's a cutipan, the literature is a autocratic legalism. There's Kim-Laine-Chapell name-natured,

there's a quote-and-sha- -lis, he said, more, more, the time now,

the, if, if, want to make kud-k- and merampas hack, not-pue-

tank, not-prew-senjata. Take-cert- , It's the humonged anything. basically, so long as long as well as far ashe, so on the ginawomened. So, what's the end uprored in,

back to the shembatan, what's justro, the human is used to be used to rebut the right of people who are the people who are in the above. But not only the pembucking of the law, In the unagued the lawgum, even though, it's not-turtained,

the title of the project strategist national. It's, maybe, if we can't we can't, we can't, we can't let, we can't but, but, but,

the other thing is, project strategist national is, it's, used by some people to beaq,

industry, certain, And people who are there usir just like that. Certificattinger, they're not, not put in the quality of

national, has been a new now, that's, so, so, definition the

definition of what, definition, the unum, it's what? We've even had

even, scheme, the name the, the thing, the idea of, the idea of

It's okay, okay, for making arigation, because of the but it's like to quaguasana, like to work jihad, yeah, um, um, and the government, it's, actually, only the clompok that's just. Now, this, this, after, this, I think I'm very, very much, um, how, actually,

the gaggallant from peneguagued hukum, to beabotan Antarant of the groupathe under the Bajawech. We're too, we're talking about inequality to kittampangan

only in context of the kind of or penapotan or money. But, I think that I'm thinking that

the is one of the most under-narrated unequalizers. Right. Yeah, right. That's right. It's the sameo'clock

it's legal. But for me, legalistic. Yes. Not legal. I agree. Because it has to be in accordance to the spirit.

Not letter of the law. If the smanglet from the hook, it is to equalization dissemination, distribution,

Consumsy by as much It's about the same It's about it'simpluged And there, There's a lot of There's a lot of I'm really

About it, about Tentang, you know, Antara legalistic with the actually legal, that's subtle Because we're We're often,

especially after Banjur Sumatra, because there's because of the people who's because of the same thing. If we're going, what, what, what, uh, what's-huh, what's-hawit or whatever, like, that's beindiccation-mebought-bought-bencana it, that's, it's been a legal. And then, then, then, then, then, is the question we're, okay, what aboutasn't, antar-legal, and illegal.

If it's, okay, maybe there illegal logging, that's done by the people that'ser-in. But isin legal that actually, because of the same morality,

to wajat proper or not? Spirit. Yeah, spirit is what? There's one gagasan so on

that, that's actually the law that can't have coerceive power because he's engandung

moralitas. So, so when it's the way that's not-partisipatine, it's the same-men-men, then-a-mach-machy, because it, he can't be able to be able to be lawan, in tundacututit. There, good people, disobey bad loss. They're, actually, that. What, is the, that, what, is it that's the fact that, what, is the fact that, what,

is the if you're just letters better than the about the book of the if you're back if you're like,

okay, the way, the way the other than putusan penal there, there's gambah there,

iraughner if puttussan demic, decoan, demicke adela byaselan that'ser than Mahha

if it'sa if you're butusan. But, the beda the morality it's, now,

we've got just jarang melate that. We're like, okay, okay, there'sh, a lot of the law-unang-un-un-a-pac-you-law-a-law-a-law. You know-a-oh-a-un-pac-a-pac-cac-a-law. Bodo-a-a-a-a-a-oan-sha.

Silac-a-a-old-a-old. That's-a-old-a-law. But, this is, you know, peg-can-a-one-a-waw-a-wond-a-law. That's what, that's-ring we're-hack-a-h-haping. The letter of the law. favor the view. But the spirit of the majority.

This is the commoner. This is the commonlythe, and I'm looking at, this is a one of equalizer that has to amplification. And this I'm going to take from one point, from some point that's given by the book If you've got to be able to look at least

the legaligarchical that's about consensurateation the power, whether it's political and economy and they're doing the letter of the law

while the spirit of the law that has to favor the majority now this there there's actually implicit

that the majority that it's not bequash, and not be a good penidican. Yeah, right? Now, this, if we're

looking, people are education, there's a catarbatassan. I'm saying about 88% from

from the capital of Sam, from Rokke, not have had been education A-1. IQ,

rata-ratan- yeah, mon-ma-mav. Not as been-per-in- what we want to be-in-a- not-per-in-

like the and the country and the catapag, capyant, for the time of the same-a-trapesia, perficiency system, proficiency lingual or or language, or communication,

still in the backerata-rata-dunia, this variable that's-a-can-a-can can be manvac-an for the pentingan-their. That, if I think, that's a very structural to have to beoress, right?

Just true, I'mlyat the weaponized to make-angat them. But this just true make co-optation. That's the key word, structural. So,

so much this is the same thing is, I'm thebodohan structural. Yeah, right, I mean, means, the commiskinan

structural, actually. The bodoan is actually structural. Because, because, there's there's

there's not a authoritative who's the other that's in mind because people because the people are being being

critical, they will challenge policies that's actually not there no other good for

the work they're they're more well when they're there, when there's corruption, and and like

someaguen't. And I'm just like, that's about, I'm nothackalism, with all the lemahan and the lebehanes, actually, it's been allowed

putusan, who, that's been because, because, we're, in the constitution we, and this is unique,

buttell, there alocation data, and it's, in the part of, this is very, in the country

other. Now, then, the, the, the, the, constitutionally,

that's-S-S-S-S-A, okay, S-M-P, S-M-A, gratis, please, do-usackan, like, the government. Kere-kra-kuh, but what

what's the last this year, the part of the Ponditka is used to make-B-Giz gratis. Padah,

I don't have got the number I, but there's study that there's that if

some-and-s- from-B-G- that do-locasic- for the publican, maybe not full gratis, but maybe forbriety quality of the education, that's very much

very important. But, right, right, and it's, it's not, for the menendanty that's that's done, not to make suredasked

in arti to give access for school and and, and like, sogain. So, even, you know, about this,

yeah, data, soal, the power, the other than the publican, I'm not a lot of the United States, R.I, it's lullosan SMA, SMA that's inattarerka.

I see, buchang-gillagre, but I think justru it's, like, in Indonesia, generally, Gellar that'sa as a majoringosasas so that's a because b.

Mackenna, there's that can be percephat process. Guru-besar, politicus, who's actually not never know-hager. Because, the gular-gelar

it's just just for access for jobatan. But, actually, in the penidicicant we're not there, to let's in a lotiqaic,

that's just because of the other than I'masysual, I'm going to beaugh a missusen, bu, that's like, I said, I'm going to want to beign. And, you know, I'm trying to challenge. If you can't, I'm going to be, I don't get a penaloran hook again. If you can, if you can,

in the challenge I'm using challenge I'm more. so much manchangu, mengotip, but befitri Susanti, blah, blah, I'm not, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

I'm not getting to jillard. I said, you're malta-challenged my life. Challenge of my opinion, because, because, in the pedigant, I,

I've got lopped, it, this, this, this is going to be belisacan, but it. Many so much as well, because of the world's about because of the publican

about the policy to make sure can access to the penediction. But the second, the system of the time even the world to be perpickir critic. How, to we can't medalli-kind

to bea-buddalen, for anyone to to saypacan to someone what he has to hear in the way that he wants to hear now that's right yeah, because that's it

if I'muara to beaugh or not teradiness technocratization or meritocratization or more vertical or horizontal but how we can't make sure we can't make asaicat and people to make up to make up to make up to make up to make sure

to give up to make sure. Yeah. Because that's a lot of different structural to beaughan technocratization or meritocratization. If I'm notherst, I'm going to be sure, yeah, yeah, but if you're not, ma'amaf, 88% from the people of matthaguen't from the head not have been a lot of theodicana. You, you're beneficiary

from the people who arebrediting I'm adhapingal. But, majority of the same. So, this is that you're going to be able to beckyricer percent. Right, right. And, that's 12 percent, yeah, not just to be thinking again.

And what can be designed structurally, yeah, school, exactly. And I think, one-satuner car is, what, yeah, the schooler, I'mbysakness,

to be able to be able to be a lot. I'm really, this is that not because school, same with university, it's also stutural,

yeah, didtut for more much to be more than administrative, laparance, accreditation and so forthness,

but not be focused to, how, So there's there's there's there. There's there's there. SMP, especially in the same a, yeah, that's not give given room that's enough to pangalie

in Indonesia. There, is it, actually, there's curriculum, there matalajarance. But, as we've got, the story has also many manipulations. But, but many guru-sejarah

who don't have room that's enough so much, the children, it's more than the school. In the last year, what they're doing, they make discussions,

discusses of school. Yeah. Kren, and I think model, model like that, if, if,

if, if, structural, design curriculum we, more, them, make space

for it, in the school, it's, can, it's, This is just a lot of the same thing is. But I think it's a lot of people.

This is a phenomenon that's notary. Anak men who are people who are using H.P. 8 to 10 hours, every day. That's the most of the TikTok, social media. And it's maked them to communicate only with one same other. But not be communicates with predecessor their. Right.

The first half the last five millionaires that's cumulative. It's name is a sejarra. So it's the tendrungan anac-a-mouda-mouda-couris. It's big, soinga, can be argumentation

wisdom-n't because wisdom that can be extraces from history. That's allar-biasa. Yeah. Now, now, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, whatever. Verticality or dimensioning, that, if we're

more able to make sure to history or the pre-dahoo our. But problem is, if we're the problem if we're through social media, it's not to the endowalue our. Yeah. That's, if it's, I don't know, is a lot of

has to lookerangue wisdom in the attention. So, attention, and everything, it's aghagued. Now, this, you know, to move to front, difficult for

we can be able to robust, like, for whatever, permassue. But, the most structural, if we're going to make-watt-

peneguacan the law, so, that's, that's a equalizer, yeah, spirit is to be a majority to beauntuant. The majority is the people who are not reprimidicant. Spirit yeah? Yeah.

Sucur, sure, the lettering yeah, and bicarate about the room today, what's justro, he's the backerickhance with the militaryism. So, so we're not imbicericer, but militarisman that's in the word of the word of the language that's more thanly aboutable about because the reasonedonging is like that.

We're doing, and serenkaily also with the human, not only in institutions of the we're doing, we're doing to always patoo on the atasan, patu, patu, by the docent, Patu, I said I'maughan I'm just like that's

I'm going to be able to like that I'm going to say Sometimes we're Yeah Sometimes we're Yeah Or not

Yeah kind of Yeah But yeah But if If you If you're Yeah, like the other than the other than we're again, sometimes,

sometimes we're taking. But in institution of pediggan, what I'm sure can't, there's equality, jad, so, so that's-in-you-hmm, so, and, actually, there's, uh,

docent or gurus, uh, yeah, all the murid will say, ah, A, no, but I'm not sullap, but I'm not suede, the reason is, not brany.

Because, from the first, it's, what, yeah, I'm in your that's your your power of your your senior you know

don't be challenged if you're going to challenge if you're over just nah maybe grundle glundal in the world that's what the problem

we're not madjue that's that that's the reflection my that's like that I'm just yeah challenge

yeah challenge yeah yeah I'm okay I'm okay I'm okay I'm not I'm okay I'm not really

is, can't-hawain, can't-hmm, because of the question-it-it-it-you-law-a-act-a-old-a-could-a-could-a-could-beck. to beaugh, maybe they're gonged bogot, or beamedkangang, macketheathing that's not going to bealt and, because of the peradabre, actually, stuck. Now, I see, phenomena militarism that,

that's making we putt that's always not to be able to, even, even, from the physical, and bagu, all the same, um,

to make, uh, can, uh, critical, yeah, There's not yet-catertipation, Ketertitabance, okay.

Yeah, yeah. But capacity building, that's important. Technocratization, meritocratization. But if if you're not retortybant, it's kental with pengruiting talenta, that not kental, with technocratization,

or technocratization, or even meritocracy, Soil. Now, I'm like, I'm quite, I'm quite with diversities people.

So long as it, in harness in the environment that yeah. But if the co-optation to-tungangy

for the penning seglintir with the things toxic, diversitas to be

divergency. Divergentsy, the connotation is not too positive. Now, this, this is that's structural and thebiasaan manusia to make sure what what other want to hear,

dibunding what else hear. Yeah. This is sure structural, can be aghap as a car of corruptibility. Yeah, right? I, I mean, I'd say, in class,

what, is, acar from corruption? Maybe two. is that's a special people who's about what you're not what you're going to hear. That's a corruptible behavior. And then one other

is, if a person people, in domain whatever, make sure, that you can get away with crime. Oh, yeah. That's a car or muara from corruptibility. Now, two,

that's about two. because of the little. Little. And situation now is, especially the second. This is also, I'm afraid of here. This is, because

muram, yeah, the, actually, the reflexion. We've got become like lowless society. Even in

life-a-hurted-a-hurted-a-hurt yeah, let alone, that level-tingy, yeah, corruption. But, I mean, there's there, kightan-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-to-re. But now,

more people, just as a lot more than not like, hellem, apalach, if it's a lot of, the area Sudhirman, Tamrin,

it's done, and I'm thinking, this is, this is the way penegak-hukum. But that's level below, yeah, which,

I think, it's also, because they're not put in different about the time just like

that Pagita said. people, it's there's going to clintry, because I'm going to be able toly the law. Alain't if I'm

just byer just like, in the people, it's like, it's like, or telephone my, general, what,

misal, like, that. You can get away with it. You can get away with it. Because he not, not, not,

we know, there's consistency in penagakan the human. So, so, the level, people,

people, it's, like, there, Khamatian of law, I think I'm nother. I'm nother. I'm going to move off-a-offeravisian after this,

I'm learning, I'mperaljury what is in Tijuana. Sering-kali, we're trebek to be think that theongok

is very dictatorial and allan-ya-kallang-ya, yeah, yeah, top-down, so. But, if I'm not-in,

they're relative is very much democratization public goods. Pendidigants, healthan, chastraan, nilatrean, nilat social. Even more than

many times democracy in the world. We're bonged being democracy the bester-nobraceouser in the world but we're only been-democratisical the sound.

But we're not democratization the right. Yeah, Penedict, and disheighting, chastraan, kheighten,

Nile moral, Nilea social, America, Srikia, democracy two-in-one-a-divis-a-old-old, if I think, deficiencies,

in context distribution public goods. Now, this is paradoxal, that's the Tionk, they're who are very top-to-the-bawah.

But, But maybe the the top of the the time down to beaunt you don't mind, man, you know, anyone, I'm pengal. Yeah, right?

And indiscriminately, want the elite or non-elite, if you're wrong, if you're in pengal. But with flaws too, yeah? Oh, I'm not going to be China Apologist in this.

I only say that there's only saying that there's observation that maybe can be they're not superna? That's the last time. At least that's what,

the level atas'n't like, that's what I'm that's the level atas it's cacao. So, even, that's I think, I'm critic, too.

I'm sometimes dilemma, if, if you're going to be able to talk about, casus Tom Lembong, yes, casus,

Bucera, I, I can, I can be because, I can't be enough. If, if it's been

process. I'midanaan Peaidae Peaidae but what I'm SOROTI is then President

turned as hero with wienang constitutional president to give pardon yeah can apply

abolition then rehabilitation yeah but but but again this

then it's many people who people think oh I'm trying just chantalant,

like the people people are the other than to gettetian saying, he's got to say case I'm casus, I'm castes as far policy.

So, so I'm so, I'm saying I'm saying, I not believe there's a biggaken that and I'm just that, this

people, why people, why they can't come out, I'm happy with them. But, but the

The other than the other than the other than the other people of the other people are you're that's giving gagsan that's elusinesses to people who are the people who arestances not policy, or people who are who maybe criminal, you know, penipuance or whatever. So, it's just a lot, oh, I'm just trying channel just, maybe not Prabawakow longung, but there's the anu, the other than the other than the other than the other than I'm, now, the way to work. Yeah.

That's the phenomena that after after this, because this is new, this is the time, especially when you're going to make, pardon, or, I mean, I think I, I should,

I'll say, then-legged-hooking to the end, to be cassation. It's, if, if, if, if, if, there's intervention,

because this is a good criminalization, because, because, can, because it's like the president, but, can, not digunakan. Now, but the dilemma I, that's, I mean, you know, come along, yeah, Patam Lemong, out of course.

Yeah, I'm sorry, it's not, but I don't know how much a way politic, to make shortcut to penagation what? What, I'm, what, Bip, which has been given

to criminalization to begin with. first, I think that's the same thing with in terms of the same kind of ballast-denoultic, ganty-pain, frankly speaking. I see, there's analysis about ganty-pamain and so-steroose-ne, which, is the most to the time puttip

to the weaponisation of law that is what they're correct for the same thing for the same thing for the same day not muddha, because there's even people who are inegritism not much making make make, make, make make, make make sure

that all kinds of people like penipuance, sexual and soothed. The most much the most of the sameguticat, when they're just the weapon, that's the same way of the weapon is, the endang of corruption. Because termed it's been a lot.

Muckaer again in challenge, too, can, Pasal 2 and 3, that? Perugian negara is what, misal. And it, it's, it, turned, has been in some rugian-regor

because of the long-and-a-lawed if you even did-a-lap-a-lars but the the country-rug-muging because of the business that

you know, that's the business judgment rule, yeah. Business is, sometimes can't be wrong, peritungance, so,

there's a risk- but it's not because, but it's not did not, there's there's like this. the end uphundred

like I'm sorry. not yet because of course. The bigjacking is quite wrong. We're making critiqued. Maybe the person who

may make sure on the people who's sometimes be given such as administrative or if you give ascansi policy,

means it, it's not be chalonged like, so, so, just, so, Totally different thing.

Because people are noticabut in the fact-hack-nexia in the time. Muckus, they're making give-pidana-tambahed so much, because it's

the fact that different. Now, so, this, I think we must be even talk about more thanute, because if

this, there's going to be-pid-a-cad-ed, there-an-a-lap-can, there-carr-cara-cara-lobby-lady, because it's really, this is called upon the law. and it's nothered to beauching the biggarten, can't be it's not even, if I'm going to be president. If you're going to be mentry, even not even president.

Although, the catatance is not all the mantarie is innocent too. There are some cases that's been made in awebenging. But because, because of the same-hmmers, the penedilance. So, the intonation is the alasance more than the solutioning is, the reason is the reason why it's the political, political, yeah.

Although again, again, like, corruption hajee, to, I think, many, uh, uh, the, uh, uh, uh, uh, RUrushan-upon-fieled, but there's one other other than-mentry who's been given to a problem. Pemidanaan. Yeah, we'll, let's get it, how much.

Now, also, in Lampangan, it's sring-cally, to beckxeruner from predateer peedana. Yes, that's very much. And that's, that it's been weaponized, for the key-uponautic, that's a lot of economy. It's as a lot of italy. Even if you're up,

if we're in, because I want to make Patita-Tacut, I'll say, this, this, this, this, is the pastel of penipuan, me, pa, policy. Tellong, this, it's, I'm, okay, I'm going, okay, I'm going,

or, I'm going to be. Or, negotiation, and so-stress. So, this is, it's a phenomenon that, unfortunately, has already has already now. Cuma'uble in the

making gila because what, yeah, politics we have nothing against the pastor-bebas. I mean, I mean, so it's totally unregulated,

not have been able to beckxerated even more than we're trying to becal, so yeah, so yeah, so after the end up-quaten and, again, the, because coercive power

there's the law again, there's there's the law and sootment it's making marack the use of the and many so, yeah, casus'n't, so,

so I'm okay to monging this. Also, like, extortion, permerasan, for perilsa, for people, people who are using,

hucked hucked, not, institutsi, the institution, penagac of the the humphal, it's just, it's quite,

I'm going to be sure. But that's level one. Level two even for active-in- because I'm

like, I'm going to talk about because it's important. Thank you. Activists from

Augustus 2005 that plus plus also a acts of U-U-T-N-I beforem it,

it still are 6-150-an people that's Somebable, some again, some again, some again, I'm still in the process of law. And, again, again, for me, I'm weaponization of law,

because if we're not, we're not a lot, it's not a dejection. They're, let's say, there's one, yeah, there's one casus that's done, Laras, he's namean, he's posting

in social media. Cata-cata-cata that's different, but, he's improvacis, people who are making things that's done that's made in Auguste 2005. That's one example of laras,

but many times. Some of the cases that, there are that they're coming because they're going to look, and there's gotop, and there's a bit of course. Why I put, I mean,

because this makes many activists like, people, I'm very much people, especially, yeah, because muda,

because muda, not there's there's coming, not there's someone, not can't telephone who, who, who's justerhaner than,

ma, how, I'm not status in media that's social that's about that's just in how much,

how far it? That's I can say that's a bit of a different than a country that not as far as it must be sure.

Now, the effect of democracy our critique more, not there. We're not. We're also

that's in Sumatra, that's gothunga ticus, banka ticus, like, the other than in terror, it's also not ever in usut tuntas.

This is what, we're doing, that's just, like, we're just, people, people, and maybe this,

people, this, people, but, I'm going back to weaponization of law how much,

to mungkamp activist, to meeras, while small to gethanty to make suretieckonement national, to make publicists not put a career again in the time that will come back, to make a huckum, it's unfortunately, effective

so. Now, that's what's been read. Anyway, this is not new, in the colong not baru, in many times, but with the situation Indonesia,

I have been there has been a lot of I have been very so, because I'm going to give in the public, because I want to do

something useful, meaningful. That's great. But, if like this can we can we make we're more than,

what else did do you do with But it's true, justerunuched, just as jacad that. If you're short-term, activism. Mid-term, legislation. Long-term, education. Yeah? Yeah.

I always think of the end-un, education. I, too, I do not do with aher-geology, the last-aer. Okay. Because why, because I'm going to make it long-term. Because they, with indahs, about the Pembunducing of Batu, in 150,000 years'er

Yeah. They're not peduli about what what's been the last or six-mingue to bepant. But they're, if they're, if this, from period of Permian, how many-hundred-juta-tawn-a-tou-s. to see here, look at the formation, so that's the same, yeah,

termacusk, we need, we're going, yeah, inshawalh, mcernas, that'seracan, that they're more than more dimensional and more deep-down,

that's more, term. Mid-term, legislation, which, can be able to be able, aggapatism, this, harapence is,

there's, now, what we can, What we can doa, Thalilin, Tahrir, Tahrir, T'Hulimpimpimint, Urika moment,

he will not weaponize the lawcum, not even bellowing human only for clompo-elomok

but for all the world from Sabang Samet Merokeh. Now, in the absence of that, what, is the line activism that we can in the short term.

Masalaghan lilacant and ber doa that's something that we've gotangunging harapan that's hard to be stucor too, yeah. So, just so, really,

that's what I'm sure that I'm thinking quatircan. We're just a lot of hopeless, to be it's the biggest, so that'saugh so that'shap later later we're having to and marrae

that's cholesterol toxic yeah but we're not but we're not but we're not but we're not that I'm justerick to say

to be sure to think theregantung religiousities you're making So I'm going to be doa, but but to doa not can't because God also makeinginginging us to

be a lot of so much. Now, so much it's like activism. Activism is in artiluas, what is activism anyway? Not has someone people turn to

or cry out of the media social but with capacity masings. Yeah, like Mr. Pagita with podcast this. I, same,

I'm, and my friends make dirty vote one, two, There's other podcast There's like the other There's coolop-kron, they're making discussion of the people who are

people who are people but for teenagers That's great I've got two times I'm happy, and I'm happy, and I'm happy, and I'm just

that's just that's that we're just that we're the broadest sense that, that's what we're going to be that's the last that's the time. And maybe,

the impact of the third to, the past the time. So, I'm over a people who are people who are there,

there's, there's people, people, the people, the people, and they're, they're asking what,

what we can't what we can, I'm going to talk in situation now, that's, that's,

the most, the people, the people, the person, the, can, And it's the revolutioning that's about revolution.

And maybe just about the same thing. Maybe. But if you're going to help and so much more than the other way, to make the other than generation of under

the people who are thinking critisn't and can't make gantycan generation that makes we're meantok this. So, we're actually making caras it. So, at the end up the

end up the other thing. The other, yeah. But this is something that is something that is something that's it, and, yeah, carerangy, too, a lot of people that, and I'm just going to getemned with community that's small, that's. There's one of the partion that I'm saying, there's one of the partying that I'm saying in many forums too,

because for me, wow, this pertainainerous, that's great, so, I think, umorrable to 15, 15th of years. With penu'amara, because of the media because of the media social, banjira, and the same thing, they're just about, why, what,

people are people that, you know, bu, yeah, that, that's going to be banjured, tan, longsor, he'd marra,

gomel, gout, but, but why, they're still want nebang pohont? Wow, saying, the answer,

can, yeah, complicated explanation we can, let's, it's, can't, but, but to the other,

I think that's a lot of glisah, gilisah in arty positive, I'msaysh, grisph, critiqu, and I have to do something about it later I, I think, there's sense that, so, so, this iseraccahans, but they're slaghan, but they're seracahed and soothia.

Nogyn oligarchy, but in the basis that more muddha. But for me, when I was, I'm energized, I'm like that, I'm like we're like we're like, maybe we're just like things that's kind of great, not quenterang, not everyone who's just mercees to-and-lawful,

but we're making sure-colon-ciman that can't be surestomarra-it to look, why, seracah-benter, she, malha binkin'er with s'gajajap, like, we-wonang-dia, so. So, I think, the jank-pend-pendek we can't, But maybe it's,

that's the other than. Well, I'm notherstant that's not. But I think that's very political and, yeah, I think the discussion can be better

there's that. Yeah, people will just nebang the pond with an assumption that's plangarance, yeah. Apobilah

they know they can get away with it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, right? Yeah, right. Amal if the signal

from the the most is okay we can't do that's a car correctability and then

in the mass civil society that's it's used to make for them to make sure what you

want to what you don't what that has to be that two acer corruptability

so so that I'm socialization concept or you know, you know, at work, in the kentor, in a

school, in the time-ibadah, di-institussi-sumpaik, say what you have to-degener. Not to say-can what-you-mow-d-degener- we're not in a popularity contest. That's just. But, of tund,

like, that's if you can, and with the idea, and, with the assumption, this, this, the clololah in the world

that not-tok-toxic. But if you're in coliolah, wow, brab, that. And santun is actually strategy, yeah, for me. So, because I'm going to bea-gare, too, in class, there's a lot of education, I'm going to think of it, we're saying, we're talking about it, we're trying. I'm going to say,

I'm not that we're afraid. Yep. But that's strategy, so that people also want to talk, And so, so he's not to discussesunds from the last. Yeah. So, yeah, it's not a lot. Because there's a lot.

Ah, penacot, need, has santoon. Bucan. This is strategy. Because if you're going to monguechapen kebjakan, yeah, percapable is key to make a biggaping the biggarten that's more good. I, that's it, every day, junker-balek, micker, that's up to 8, from the U.

from the U.S.S.A. that's up to be able to be able to nil, asceapot, maybe. Yeah, this is, okay, like, generalization that's not somepurna,

but how, so, yeah, so, yeah, discursus, in-room, in school, in,

the, the people-itabond, that's about the ablachianism, or even if you're like to copy, or gappleg, jam two-pagre, that, bro, how, so,

people, the people, the, people, they can be madarat on planet Mars. That's superlative, or perfectionism.

And then, there's, there's, I'm going to goply, I'm going to be able class mechanics quantum, there, there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there

about about how much more to we're even equalization and redistribusiusts and there's like to be a badah there Ustatt, there rabbi, there pendetta, how much for Indonesia that's not only only being

economy the best number four in the year, in 2014, but we we can even make actualization innovation, innovation technology, innovation, innovation, innovation, that's what you know, that's the job of course of course, who's been able to be able to doer school. Not, um, like, not tante, like,

not, she's-a-huh, he can't, she can't, he can't beckynaissance and co-hockean to young. And, and, I'm just the, what I'm the, what, yeah, name it's secondary education, that's, that's right? It's really, it's not just a glar or skill that's specific, but it's a very much. That's what I mean, I mean, I also get a way of thinking like this,

from a lot of them actually, from, from. Because gurus is great, maybe. There's one or two that's not crum. Yes. Yeah, right. I'm, oh, do you know. That's what we're doing. And, I'mbangun the guru, guru,

that's inspirational this, that's one, barangly, one's one. And if you're in SD, gurus, it's a month, or honorer 500,000, a month. It's sadd-a-sulid to puttick inspiration, imagination, and ambisiesies. But, the cutulant, when they're going to be able to passar, in the pastur, in the there's about the other thanjewal-a-hick-hound, that's a lot of the world. That's anomaly. Or, or, who maybe not be a predidicant, this can, the pembutarchingingat to be able to be able to be able to be able to be 16.

Yeah, after 16, that we can't have been able to be able to, you know, is there's an openaum unobotation, to beaqqapeutan preservation. But if the formuncution otakia, not akew of 7.49, then,

didajaring with way that's dogmatis, not there's noctus, we're only stuck in the power of preservation,

we're not there, the quotannovation. And, don't look, now, now, challenge's

not. Unic, umor, um, up, um, until with 9-upon, then when when you're going to govoting past

pastor, gettick-Ikut. But, begine just, bucagadgett-na, and again, zoom-scrolling TikTok, miscellar. So, yeah, that's, yeah, tantan our time,

and, barang-a-a-a-a-a-acti. And, barang-a-lapes. Bikin podcast like this, this is one-a-cadaptation, yeah. Yeah, this, public service. Yeah, can?

Yeah, can, which, al-al-al-al-dilil-h, we're not a little-dick, and, al-h-h-dh-l-h-l-haw-a-a-vary-viewing time-nia, yeah, right? Not 30-detick, yeah? Al-hmm-dil-lid-a-tifference. It's, there. This, this, this, I'm going to be back to-goy-to-tank,

because it's inescapable, inevitable, that this is possible. They're in 1949, melemated titic, namely revolution. That'd already in the book of history, I think, ah, this revolution politic, Mao Tchutong,

Nalach, who's making the long-lankaned-un-Nusunuching, Sunya-Adsen, communist, to be nationalists. I'ma if I'maughamonga they're stillaugh

which they're going to be resigning from the genuania from cancer that's being the basis for consistency their to look at and there's

there, there's distortion the great leap forward the cultural revolution that's very negative but when people Deng Shopping naip he's 8thum, he's not about boss'shawlop

even though he's in person while he's got to keepershickan from compatibility in common and this

ideology that we have we're partang-javit but we have to make accountability now accountability that's it back-up,

topang with capacity building gilagli-gila-gila-an not compromis-tick educations 9 million people to the world. And they're seriously designed it, I'm very time from Taiwan post-legic school, and they're support,

you know, China's Communist Party, CCP, is the agotanotanest 100 million. Who's the same, 10-40-40-juta. Standing Committee, Politburo, is 7, angotaned, from Xi Jinping, from six people, three, learner STEM.

So I'm thinking if they're like meeting, Xi Jinping's just, technique chemia, testis it's polymer, from Qinghua University. Hu Qingtau, hydraulic engineering. So I'm thinking if they're like meeting, it's the way to be efficient, more than, more than, more than,

more than more, more than, more than, more than, ambiguityity not much. But if in the other, the other than bigotus, ambiguities to be weaponized. They're able to make barang and jasa that's the consumerity of the

majority. They're, they're, you are the mitra-dagang-ter-bestar for allurehs in the world, tovite, but Bhutan. But Bhutan, in time-de-de-de-caught, will be the largest trading partner. Oh, okay. That's because ideology, because of geopolitic.

We're even because it's more than more, more than good. And, that's distribution, public goods. And democratization idea, it's notar. We're looking at, in Hong Kong, I think, B.YD, is one-saturned. There's 99 mark, mobile-ly-lic. It's mencermincan democratization idea. Artiness, encouraged, to beaithicist, as far as far as a creativity, this is that this is true.

Now, this only can't be able to be able to be able to a lot of extent can be taken to talk about in the because of the time. Because of the because of the day, because even if we're able concept dasarion, demos, you know, some government for the people, right, can, can,

right now, it's, that means, government is that has to have accountability to the people, that, to, on, to demos. So, so, accountability, it's And so much in the

because, that's the time we've been talked, but also in the system policy we're, people, people, not look, look, and

other than, and, like, and, again, because, not there's accountability. And I mean, I think,

accountability, it's been, it's been dishebue democracy again. And, not even

accountability disubstitus with authority. Mm, yeah, yeah. Ooh.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. But that's actually that's actually that's but that's still that's but that's still

even though. But generally I'm looking even though we're atas we're talking about that's being done baser-besaran is that that's the patu-hapotuhan on authority.

Now this is the airsteer can't democrat. For me, for me, I see, I've got to titic where this, this kind of we're not democracy, but competitive authoritarianism.

So, in arti, we still have a level of competitiveness. Yeah. But, for the reason, and, uh, and,

uh, what, yeah, a, symbolism, that we still have democracy in Indonesia, this, there,

this, this, this, this, DPDs and the restusiness. But, but, But, DPR's functioning for what? Emang for the people who are youakily?

Or for the people who are in jockeying? I mean, I'm saying, now, for oligarchy, that's. Even, who's agangue also, can Board of Peace, yeah, from America. I mean, I mean, because if, if democasiness DPR, this mustiness

call the president or men, you know, this is what, try to give us, and so on the other than, and so much. Because, Rakeet Indonesia,

many people, and, if you want to survey, with polling or whatever, many so many that not never,

what, yeah, menitouy, actually, not pern't , not pern't it, if, if,

if, if, the, and the other than the P. Now, let's see, DPR will be repartagnation, not? Because,

I mean, policy that's like that's the way for checks from legislative to executive. Now, that's not that's the

competitive authoritarianism that. President has had and prerogative to include but but maybe what I'm sure

there's about about there's partisipation in the world of peace that's the most the most the most for the control and pencunia

and pencuniaa and the two this maybe it's coming with resolution in P.B. in November of 2005,

which in the Kucamata people like I'm, it's as can be unalier capacity PBB to be made. And the third, if the Board of Peace

this, enguplagely, remembererangue, and sub-daiation swastah for the territory colonialism yeah, is it? Yeah, abat

to 1717, we know two entities which, which is the first thing, the British East Indies and the Dutch East Indies which,

which is VOC. Awal mullanyed is it is private enterprise. But, bereavolution, soingga, they can't military

for the same fordeges according to the other the other than the other than the abel. And that, yeah, this, nowluri just

the, I'm thinking I was, wad, this, if, if the, the,

the board of people, the board of peace, the board of peace, it's like the board of directors. But this is the importance of peace,

but with the predation swastahs, this is almost same with abat 16-17. Yeah, so, the, that's melisshanked me, precisely that. We're, we're mad at the Board of Peace this, even let alone Indonesia, I'm not much we're not right here. We're not right here's

because of the law. We're not making scheme of human international. It's justru it designed bergap from what you're going to beinialism, along the whole thing, holocaust, and and so much, but that's about 2006, that's what that's the time of the but back again to the whole democracy in Indonesia, that's it's been musting be partanguroped

by President as the head of the government, to be it, and the thing that's the way that is DPR, one of the other that, shall be, if the DPD also But I'm

I'm just because I'm because I'm going to happen because of the DPR. And that's what making accountability that's more more, more, nearerous, not

there, even when MBG, who so highly criticized, data has reserakan in where, to make data the data for

al-a-lisheatant, the people, many people Many so. It's quite a lot of the but there's a substantive in DPR. Mugin'n't ask,

why, why, why, what, like, things, little, but not perna, there can't be accountability that really can't, evener, this, really,

you really, not, policy, is, there, there's a path plananationation, there, there's,

evaluation, and, and, and, and, and, setus' and,

so, you, But but that's like that's I'm not, I've been I'm having a lot of DPR's right, can't make sure you like accountability there. And that's what I've got I've seen this year this year.

Now that I think we're we're going to, and one of the one's one, I think from the thing that we said, we've said, we're going to be thinking people, uh, uh, people need,

I'm going to, I'm going to say, um, about, yeah, be it's all right. And, In other, it's called populism.

This is that's about even about making democeration our own of law our law our. Populism that's the most right or the can't be argumentation

with correlations with consensangangangang. Consenjank, maybe be argumentation with correlations with polarisation percakapan

polarisasis, ide polarisation spectrum some of the other now. Now, if I

see what's fundamental what is to beobati is, polarisation percapant, polarisati

idea. Ide could der democratization. Because idea the idea could be

democratization, even the idea terrorization, this democratization public goods. I, if I'm just as far as democracy, what, what,

yeah, from the debate kusir, what I'm doing, is distribution public goods. From Sabang and M.R. O'K., they're safe, yeah? From Sambang and M. Rokke, they're cerdas, not?

From Sambang to M. Rokke, they've got... ...louang from M.R.O.K., they've got... ...nil M.O.K., they've got... Nil social and same, not? treatment that's public goods.

if you have beening Maroque or Jakarta or Cember or that, it's maybe cermin from the way or it's the wrong that we're

making people public goods that don't have been democratization and it's now we can't we can't see see as far asat

matter that the notastaran that I'm sure I'm sure I think I'm in process, that's the process, after the board of the board of course,

that's going to be a discursus that's sifatness, collective, to give them back up to, to be, yeah, the telahue-ulang. Yeah, right?

Yeah, because, the, that, the accountability was, that's the, that's the, I mean, I'm not only one, I think, I've got three, four years later, can, I thinkly,

percapaping that's not there. So, so, the bigjacking, that's, it, that's just, not there participation, no,

there's a paracaping about it, not there, no, and, and when we're, when we're making-critic, the, you,

this, you, the, lanker-hook, like that. So, yeah, actually that's what the end up in the end of course. I'm going to look at middataeer's

in Davos, naddain is that he was serious on the rule of law. This, this, he observations um, this.

Nada, yeah. Implementations, we can be able to, but, like, he's serious, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, un-equalize playing field. Belial, he's serious, more than mucherate-lawfulas.

Even, with banggainernautia, time they've got to be able to get, how many $60,000, $1.00. Yeah, $8.00,000, $60,000, he had $58,000. That's the target is at least $80 million per day. Okay, like, I'm going to take care of the narration. If people that didn't get to make money, positive, to public good, right? But, uh, the end-ugging-in-uncum implementation.

Now, implementation, this is theregantung as far as he can make democratization or technocratization. Now, this is what I want to ask. Two things that I'm not see. in the government's sorry to say, I mean, from the very, from the president just, Mentiary.

This is the law and dislike to people per person. The way, we can't we can't see that many of the menrion and the panaceaughty. Now, can, 49th, the kementriam. And it's also

did not even to make the endang-unders-in-kindria-negare that longed-unctrion-in-a-n-natured. that dothasks, 34. the last time before Prabhu wasabat, so that he was in jambacoburned,

can't make it berapot. 48, then, it's more than 4.9. If we're tele-al-lake-leg-jerk from people who are in the government-in-in-it-to, we'll also can't be able to some-in-the-it-it-y-it-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-ssy-y-y-y-y-------on,

Yeah, yeah, which is very, that's very large, but more than that, if you're about competency, because, can competency that's also we can looker from recam jajac,

they're in a certain bit of a certain. Now, that we'll see, very, very minimum. What can be able to be able to be the kind of their with parties, part of politic, that's now,

the same is called, so that's like the way, that's the level of the mentrion. But, can, after the mentry to beawe, meritocracy this, or,

not-an-a-nettocrasie, to, um, to be a one thing systemic. Because, actually, there's recruitment,

the-anag-a-l-l-lis, staff-a-hly, even, even director general, that's all right now, that's all right, plus also, you know, the same thing is,

general general TNI, from the copulisian, now even hebo, yeah, there's putusan macama constitutionally, which is, as far constitutional,

that we're talking this, not gossip, it, it's wrong, that, now, this, Now, this is that's all right after the end up. So, what's the end up.

Ticicaping, and percapation, not there. Afterna, when, I'm going, say, MBG, like this design. Tidacted,

probably the not, what we can't, yeah, not there's just, oh, don't make this, or, the power of the quality of our

it's not-a-a-a-a-a-haping? This, by-design, or? It's, spontaneous-as-a-huh? Bunked-Signis, by-design, yeah. I'm not sure that, that's a way that's very, very par-politicists that, because now menuducoe

job-a-jabotan, which, so-hars-necratit, they're actually, they're nothernation after the time to make sure 2009. also we're making sure

we're still critical about cooperation merh pute miscellar. I'm sure that when I'm talking cooperations, not like that

that's dropped from atas from the busat, then they've been puthaken there in desa desa and

that's the not that. It's what that's that's not the corporation actually, but but the

the report from some of the other media also made it's about it's been made it's been under some people, there

indication they can use or mayalagunakan scheme this for 2022-N- now, all-h-all-

like this for me, it's not spontaneous, not because in-tod-cot- -bodd-bodd- but, but

just-st-pintar. to usehutankan authority that. So, yeah, so many soresources from the country that's the same to do you know to do you know. This is what?

It's what can't be able to be able to make sure people. So, so they're able to beckyre positive. This, this, backdrop, yeah. I, if I, if I, yeah, I, yeah, That's $600 dollars.

per-one $6-5,000, now, now that's $91,000. Yeah, it's $70,000,000, yeah. Indonesia, in 2018, the end uptown per capita per-tour, $400. Tyeongcog, $125,000. Pass forward to here Tjok, Pendapotan per-orangue $13,000.

This is this this is a lot of whatever, bank, can'tar from gembell from modernist this is just as background that's young men are in the way that's in front

this can be able to think positive yeah I'm actually although upon many too churhaten and the rasa

and the rasa but I'm still optimistic justro because I look at the young young mud, that that's sure you

that's people in people people who are some sort of sometimes because of the reason and the

health and because because the end up regeneration in the country

in the country but just the problem is, so it's because

it's always but it's the problem is that if system

is is the system the system the peopleuam, partay politic still still like not really menaceing

functioning party political, and they're all just just to access to the money that we

don't we we've that we're maybe, yeah, even if even if even the

generation under but there's there's not there because I see that's

makinggat I'm not medicat mud and too Many of the people's not quite quite quite like that's about. But there's people who are integritas and

have a bigerative. He's muddhaal in thinking. So, for me as long as, generation of current, the way of thinker, how much the way of thinking, that's more than when I'm saying, if I'm saying,

if I'm going to bea'graping the time we're all, to library and with the other than what, about the other than what, like that's quite, like, yeah. If we're,

we can get new new, which can be able to be able to but we can use as a good thing, for, for think,

we deserve more. I, too, I, too, asedrata- Why, if, if, if, if, in Indonesia, we can't be able to be around?

As a lot of it's just as a bit of it. Oh, same, yeah. Because we're making sure gombron. So, I mean, that's simple. Simple, very. Basic. Why, if in Indonesia, air, land, that's not really.

Indonesia, can, large-biasa, like, kaian alam. Instead of, dikelauola by the country, in one of a good, they're like, they're just a concessesies to personal personal to sell them, but in the other

can't be from Erkeran, so that we deserve better. Now, gagasan soal we deserve better is, we deserve better, it's more information

it, we're getting to get. Oh, ternata, in the world the, but, we've got to totally gratis,

oh, we've got to beapeutes, but the leavenan bpgis where, miscellarer, or if in Japan, the MBGs, it's like to olaten with us, bad, yeah,

with us. Now, all things like that, we can't think we're put in particular, generation mud, and if we're

we're just allah and swarakan, and the minder it's to be the back the matter,

For the end of the day, if the end of the day, if we're about the end of the day, if we're talking about the system politically, so we're going to get into system. Yeah, I'm not saying this is a year, two years, past, but but it's the time, but we're the time. But, it's the same thing, I mean, it's been a room and to make a problemermba system that. Now, that's what, with situation like that, I'm optimistic.

Because we're like, barren, work, this together, you know. And back again to theongok, 100-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-parta-parta. Mm-hmm. 30-40-40-juta stem. And what we thinker in from the first to now is how much, and each-massing-angota, it's been incapacitas. Yeah, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. That's... That, that... ...that We can't buddhajave and they're not they're not able to gajap Yeah, the point in there

jacob think he's aggob think Yeah, kunchin'n't again, yeah, right, but, but, even, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, the, but, yeah, part, after after after

after, I'm thinking that, that's, I mean, It's the idealistic, is, Vodalism is that really, really men's really, that's really, can't beaughalism

it, I'm from way, even even to beaulistic, in art, glar, penidic, and guru-besar, did,

did, doctor, master, and and soothn, it's just be-gap, like, glar kebansawananan,

that made that people who people who people who, entitled to, Ah, like that'sharmathe, like that'sharmat, di-itschievous, di-assingazes, and set-ersers-a-firmat-D-P.R.,

they're just a lot. It means nothing if not-a-is-ilmugnizh. And accountability. And accountability. At we, we're, structurally, again, in campus, can even school-suasta, like I, did Jentera, we're more

we're more than we're more than administration, makeshive, which is the other than the people, which is quite, we're very often to make sure

to make an penitian. If there penitian, the gunnation so, so it's quick get glar,

guru best. Penitian, I'maf, yeah, but there, I'm not I'm sure,

I'm back, I'm, oh, this, sorry to see, because it's because of the same. Because I'maacist who's not, you know, if you're not really, even if you're not,

because there's many times those people who are only using publication and all kinds of to get credit, soing she's quick to get guru besar. Maybe he plagiassi and so forth. So, so, so, let's get a really,

has that's new, that's that's not, that's not there's still when I'm in system pedigation we're in there's 1st 1⁄ there, there

there, what yeah? The end uptimist, yeah, who? What, um? Yeah, which, I think, we're,

we're must monger the way think we're thinking we're so, so, this,

it's, like, now, I'm thinker of our people, really have the idea brilliant and that's but right now

it's justemakkhanes by people who have puttinked with car chara which even when I challenge idea pilkada

melanched again but it'suant but it's for sample just when I challenge idea whenchallens idea soal Pilkada

meloly there, there politicus who said oh it's you know, since I'm from four pancasia

artis, I mean, not be able to make them believe right, not perna, the people kind of kind of,

be thinkerer than more, that's, what I mean I think I'm that's the fact that, the fact that

the think people, the work, penagation the law, it's, only just,

it's, to justifix Justifications, what's in power, what's the first of power, our task we're saying it to. Because if we're actually we're not challenge, we don't give counter-narrative, we're not percapable, we're not percapable, it's not going to bea-can-a-kind-allective our people, And that's the thing ishuryk, and that's right?

So, maybe, um, tone positive I have, there's, I'm seeing, with many people who are with many people who are using, with, what, access information that's morebiasa, has been literature, although even though in media social, but we have been able to

we have model now, media social also, to make percapable and all kinds of agasasan what's important, now, yeah, don't talk just, don't talk to

make, about, to, make sure, what, that we're we can't we're just about, we're talking about

there's no, there's partanion that bego so, yeah, I'm, um, the person I, to keep thinking

critical and besuara. Spakat. Thank you, thank you. Sama, same. Tuman,

that's, Bivitri, Susanti, founder of PESHACA. Thank you.