Endgame with Gita Wirjawan - Moorissa Tjokro: The Modern Magician is a Technologist

Episode Date: June 30, 2021

Artificial intelligence (AI) and robotics are increasingly playing considerable roles in the evolution of humanity. They raise fundamental questions about what these systems should and should not do, what risks are involved, and whether humans can still be in control. What issues keep Moorissa Tjokro, Tesla's machine-learning engineer, up at night?

Data scientists live in the house, that engineers built the house. And for that reason, I eventually switch and learn about software engineering and robotics, because I want to build the house. I actually, yeah, I don't want to just live in the house and tell people what to do. This is Endgame. Hello, Hello, my friends, today we're coming Murisa Chokro,

one of one of our one of our people who's who's been able to be able to Tesla. Marisa, thank you, can come to do you. Thank you, it's an honor to be here. Same, I'm going to talk, this, with you, and maybe, maybe, it's the time you're in the time of the little

that's like how, how it's. Tell you, Marang, on 1 December, in 1994, so the year's the year. So, 26, yeah, more than 27 years. 27 years. Okay.

Please tell us. Yeah. So, so, so, I was great in Malang until umor 13, so, I have two siblings,

one of my, was my six years younger than me. And my, my brother, three years more than two. Cahue? Cove. Cove. That, yeah, in the room, yeah, like, like, like, like, like,

playing with, because, because, because, because, with Coco, three-town, playing it, like, tembent-temb-and, like, Like that's like to comebole. Yeah, since I was like to play with my name with my friend of Coco,

maybe, yeah. And in school, I actually loved learning since I was a kid. What in particular? I loved all subjects. Okay. In particular, arts, actually. I wanted to be a street art. Oh, yeah?

Gamba. Gamba, because I remember from 3 to 5 years, we have a very small house in Malang, and there's only two bedrooms, one bedroom for my parents, and then another bedroom for three of us. But like bambet, like. And I, like, the tomb-nebock's full with gambarant my own

I'm like that's like I don't know why, why you can't even like, like, like, yeah, I just grab a pencil and then just drew everything and like on that wall. And I've learned, yeah, I loved art and in particular probably portraits. Okay, right. Yeah, so, yeah, so.

Yeah, so, my parents, my siblings, more like, Or with a pencil? From the other than I always asked my parents to get me like a painting set. But I actually never got it until I came to Jakarta and then at the school at Plythagata and there was the first time I encountered. That's the who's the decision?

The people or you, or you? It's the other, or the other? That's the other, really. Yeah, because I think, if they think that's the English, actually, and I also, I don't know, too, that was, that was in Class VIII.

I was at Colossess Santo Yusub, so it's one of the most, probably difficult and tedious type of environment. So, so school at there, Then after that, then, after that, you know, one day, you know, to go to school. And then I think my dad was just like, okay, today, I'm not going to say, oh, yeah,

you're going to do you, like, what's doing? Yeah, he's got, he gave a very spontaneous person. Okay, so you're going to park, not? No, no, no. Like day trip just to Jakarta. Yeah. Wow.

So we, yeah, and then only me and my dad actually went to Jakarta. And that's what's about, after, after, that's, actually, already, already, who's, who's in class, umgulah, that, in Waing. Weing, we're calling it, like Waing, Blimbing, in Malang.

And then we got to Jakarta. There were actually, actually, four schools that we tested, it's from the day from the first from, from what, um, from what, and you had no idea? I had no idea. That's the datuals,

and I didn't know what to prepare. So, we, it's, like, from the first, I forgot the school, Ipeka, that, like, school, Plita Harapan, and then other two schools, I forgot, I forgot, maybe that's all good schools. Yeah.

But then, test results, out of all of all, then, yeah, and then, and then, I saw the test, and I was like, oh my gosh, the BALASA English, that's, I'm afraid,

but that's, but they were, but they can just, I'm like to get more than... Tolerancey's more than... Yeah, maybe they're like, oh, I was so confused. I was like, oh, okay. Maybe, also, they've got to look,

yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, then, we're just rube, we'd just to be able, we'd just, in SPH, that in Karawachi, that's... Sorry, before you've ever to Jakarta? Jarrang. Not, yeah, just,

Just a time, like that's a couple of times. It was a culture shock, yeah. And then, that's... Then, that's what? Then, after that, it's what? Like, oh, so, um, school, kind of you're that we like, the Espega was like,

there was a swimming pool, and I was like, wow, gila. And then there, there's, you know, the resources was, Like, like, oh, this, not-pap-ta, if I'm going to my response to my dad at the time. And, because you know, I'm going to go to-enang, too. So, you know, when you're going to get on, you're going to get-in-bentooing.

Yeah, yeah. But I was so concerned, because I know my parents, parents, like how... like, like, like, like, like, I think I saw their lives, it's like, like, gawy-kir-for-the kids, like, my mom,

work salon, and then my dad actually, like, as a contractor, list-trick. And, yeah, the, you know, they, you know, the, the, like a sortro, like gawyo,

for the kids, so they don't, you know, they don't, you know, I think for a lot of people, they have like, oh yeah, I have like 100% of this money, 30% for the education of the kids, but for my parents, it's more like... 95.

Exactly, 98% probably, 2% for them. That's what I'm, that's what I'm like, That's that's like I have to be able to... Meleck, then, like... Yeah, like, make them proud, like... Then, class 8, ...pindah, finally, class 9.

School of Pulita Harappa? Yeah, because... ...that, that's also being wrong, because... ...tingle with who in Jakarta? ...tingal... ...the ...toeas... ...a ...asma... or not know?

With people who are the only SPH people who were the the only SPH kid probably who got crossed with, in Dano Biru, and then, so, actually, to be with SPH and headmaster, because they said, there's no one

in there's no one in the people who did underage or what, yeah, yeah, they were so concerned that I would do something crazy And then I ended up, you know, juvenile, like, like, like, baccalaam, like, like, baccalaamacem, like,

I was the first time I was exposed to the, like, like, independent life, probably, at 13. Yeah, yeah, what? What about, then, then, then, to puttussan to America's, to Seattle, that's what? Who, is, the other? Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, exactly. From 98% to 99%? Yeah, maybe. No, actually, because I got bea-sysuah So, so two-time. Two-time. Then, after that... Umur, 15.

I turned 16, then, then, then, then, then, went to the Seattle at that time, because, So that, Kokoa, okay. At the U-S. Seattle, you actually. So, that's also,

it's also, um, it's also, including my advisor, career advisor at, yeah, yeah. Okay.

Then, that, the transition, Malang, Jakarta, Seattle. Yeah. Yeah, because I was so scared. I didn't pass everything because everything was in English.

You speak English. Okay, because maybe every day, do you jettling English. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it was actually, it was pretty good. I remember, I used to be so scared seeing like, like, native. like native speaker, in SPH, it's the international, so there's a guru Bulek.

They're like, oh, I was like, I'm going to be talking about, and then some of my friends were Australian, Singaporean. And then they were like asking me, oh, what book are you reading? I was like, whoa, whoa, what? What? So it was probably the most struggle in Qaeda.

But for some reason, I was able to navigate it. I don't know how. But I'd be there all right. Because I was like, okay, that was the point in my life where I probably embraced my strength more in science because if mathematics, yeah, just number number just number just, right? Oh, I see. Because of the way, so you focus to angkai.

Yeah, and even from you, I like aljabar, see. Okay. But, but, awoling in the art, is it. Yeah. Yeah. But my parents saw my strength in Math & Science, and then they were like, you should consider this computer sciences

and engineering field for career. It's more than that. Okay. And then, right? Yeah, right? So, it's just about two years, in there, yeah? Yeah. And then, actually, it was a year.

In Seattle, just a year. Then, then, then, then, to get to Georgia Tech, yeah, made up Atlanta. That's interesting, too, that's it. Tellas? Yeah. So, how is...

So, because in Seattle, that was that's back track, fast track is you probably know it was in college, a two-year institution college. But, I was just took a one year because I, yeah, I, yeah, I don't know what, it's just, So I could transfer directly to four-year institutions.

I got into several schools, but I chose Georgia Tech because it was number one for, I don't know, 40 consecutive years in industrial engineering, which was eventually the major that I was taking. So that, so in Georgia Tech, with the technology, with the statistic that was mostly. Yeah, it's more to the other than Atlanta. That's a very different town, in the same than Seattle, than New York, but...

But you're really, really, what, yeah, objective academic, yeah, put a side of the city, like, The city is how much, like how much, how much it's how much about to California probably at the time. But I was rejected from Berkeley. Oh, you ended up okay. Yeah, it was amazing.

Georgia Tech is a great university. Yeah. At Georgia Tech, looking back now, I saw, what's the health humanitarian system centers, and my passion was a lot in social, humanitarian, this. So I was like, whoa, that was the one that introduced me to the whole new opportunities, who can work to P. Then the U.N. World Food Programme. But I knew at the time, like if I were to go...

Zimbia, yeah. Zambia. Actually, South Africa. Zambia, it was just a work-a-on-outed with the headquarters of UN in Italy at the time. Okay. So, yeah. I was very, very grateful, see.

There's research opportunities at Georgia Tech. Okay. And then, then? LULUS, not just to get S2, right? Worked first, right? Actually, no, no, like, to take, like,

not there's not, because, yeah, ma'amahed, like, so, but I worked for two years, and then,

when I was working, in the time I created the statistical model, the statistical model, be with a PhD student. And he... In Atlanta? Atlanta, that was all non-profits.

Wow. He introduced me to this whole new world of random forest and decision trees, you know, like the statistical learning, basically. And I was, whoa, I loved it because... Mind-blowing. Yeah, because I know.

at Georgia Tech, I fell in love with statistics already. It's like sophomore year. And for some reason, I wanted to be closer to the statistics world. Then, I got to see PhD colleague this, he inspired me to take S2. I was like, I have to learn about this whole new world of, more than math, mathematical modeling, and all these things. Now, that was when I learned about this new field called data science.

From there, I actually evaluated a lot of programs in the country. And I came across Colombia, because that's like, Ivy League was pretty much I wanted to go to New York. And because because I think of P. I'm really Ivey League who offered data science program

in the time that. Like the first, NYU, and then the program. So I only applied to one school. It was my dream dream school. Wow. Wow. Wow. That's...

...withias. ...withstand with my professor, former professor. professor, plan B-mea what, he's who, he's making recommendations, and other and other, like, I'm going to teach in Africa if I got rejected. Oh, yeah? Serious? I think so, yeah. Where in Africa's the South? I have no idea.

Samia or, at the time? I wanted it so bad at the time. Yeah, I'd like, like, like to be like to be like that, like that's already, and then I saw a lot of opportunities, can they got gap that's a big of a lot of... And, the last I was also, to be cappainan,

to gnajure, when I was in Columbia, I took a month to South Africa, and then, they said, they said, So it was actually quite sad, because the young of five-year-old, am I'm six-tahun,

did just one class, because they lack the resources and the teachers. They don't have so many. So they depend on these volunteers from all over the world to help them teach. That's so noble. You know, your background is very rich, combining the left brain and the right brain.

Yeah, right. And the... And the... ...their... ...theirc't... ...theirc't... ...the ...theircite... ...the ...theirmecite,

...that, they're... ...notalalpilot, yeah? ...noter... ...are they're going to go to comeana... ...or like, I'm like, like, like... ...and then they're like, ... ... ...you're going to Columbia pictures that's... ...you're coming home... ...you're coming home...

You know what I mean? The Hollywood. And then I have to tell them, like, so, if there's, if you know, I love my parents. They're great. One is a university, I don't want to have a university. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay, then, then, let us, in NASA.

Yeah, it's before, six months before I was I stumbled upon the career option. It was my career advisor. Again, my life is just very spontaneous. And fortuitous. And for two at us. Yeah.

And then I saw it. I saw it and, okay, let me just apply. And then I got interviewed and all of it, all the process. Then I took it on this like research that's like, that's like, that's, that's, that's, that's, so. So...

So... ...and we'll talk about about the climate climate change. But then, then, So, yeah, on this climate change, I grew up in Indonesia, and then, not ever the kind of the urgency of climate change, because we're very,

as a very kind of as a country tropis, that we rarely have, like, like, like, lack of forest. forest and all these greeneries. Biodiversity. Yeah, exactly. It's amazing. So, I'm from that's like,

oh, yeah, this, like, look, like, wow, climate change is like crazy. It's real. That was actually from my research. And then, from then, I was also, I was also, for, to, undergraduate or graduate?

Actually, it was a master's program in Applied Analytics. Okay. So I became a TA in that courses, for thesis of their, capstone. And from there, it was also network network. Good. Yeah, it was such an amazing school. You know a lot from like, J.P. Morgan, my professors. Used to work there.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, exactly. Goldmung sex. Used to work there too. Yeah. So my professors were amazing. They were the ones who, again, it's like, I'm like, like, jatheitia to the whole field of machine learning

that. That's not, not, not the interest banking. Just by the name of the names that you mentioned. You know, when you're not that's not really not yet to work in investment bank. Now, I think,

because you're looking at people who are there, from the name and name that's that's right. Yeah, the Lure is inevitable. The capital of finance in the world, so I took computer science in finance when I was at Columbia,

then I was in Gantuck. So, we're talking about blockchain. So, I think I'm a-plus. Yeah, I think I got an A-plus. This is in 2017-18, right? 16-18, that, yeah. 16, 17. But that, yeah, I'm not too

too, that's not too, that's not that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm thinking, ah, this is, from finance, so maybe I can be able to learn much. I've been able to be able to be a huge impact in the world. It's... I don't know how finance could...

I couldn't see that. So I can say that again. I actually, I had a full-time offer from 2 Sigma, a huge fund in New York. But that, there's Tesla, there's two Sigma, and then mentor my mentor in New Jersey, he said, when you work, you probably want to not just love your team

and what you work, your role, but also the mission of the company. Purpose. Exactly. That's, I'm like, I'm like I'm like I'm like the first place. And I knew all my life, it was because my dad working in this like, electrical field, like energy field,

he's like, yeah, I think my dad implemented a lot of like LED, ganteen the less sustainable option. And that was why I chose Tesla at that time. And then, yeah, but the... Okay, that's an easy decision, If you're not even if you're not in hindsight, but that wasn't. No, that wasn't.

In hindsight, that's maybe, it's a lot easier. Yeah. To say that it was the right decision to go to Tesla. But if, if I think, that, that's the people are there are there? Did consultations, not? I'm not really.

Okay, so it's just a lot of past, it's interesting. And the lucidity, what I heard, you're doing, you're working, part-time, at all the time at Tesla. Oh, actually, it was internship, full-time. A hourly basis and everything, which is not very assuring,

can, ... Yeah, right. Yeah, right. Yeah. But you had that purpose of wanting to make a difference. Yeah. Yeah.

You want to make a planet, you know, a better planet. Yeah, so we're not emissy carbon like before's before. Yeah. That's also, like, oh, if, if, if, if, if, if, I wanted to help my parents, maybe this a more viable option than if I go to finance. Maybe that's that's going to finance. Now, that you've done

you've done before you've done with Tesla. You did stuff on climate change, you taught in Africa, and then you're all of it, you're, that, in real relation, with crystallization purpose

to be a person to bekerjada Maybe I've been, this is three-year-old, I'm going to Tesla, I'm going to look at back, there's where I always be contributing to the E-Klim, that's when I'm going to be a lot of, I was the first S-1, I worked for the clients were all non-profits, but I was assigned a Sierra Club as my client,

where I eventually became a lead analyst for that project. And Sierra Club is actually the largest environmental nonprofit organization in the US. Wow. So it's... No-law. Yeah. Oh, people are making monuments, monuments, and then we created some type of marketing system

for donors, donors and members. And then, from there, in New York, I got that opportunity. I thought at NASA Goerd Institute of Space Studies, I would research about the satellites, imagery and all that. But we actually use those as a tool to actually learn about the classifications of like Northern Ocean and Southern Atlantic and Southern Ocean. where in 100 years, in the time that's the variables that's the temperature, and then carbon dioxide,

and all these, like, all different types of dimensions that contribute to the climate, it's really, really, really, really, it's really, like, yeah, there's a huge change, and it is urgent. Yeah, so, yeah, so, yeah, so, yeah, So, really, okay. But I didn't know-not-khov that. Then, at the Tesla, and then, this is,

when I connected the dots looking backward, I saw some... Somebody said that. You can only connect the dots after. Not before. Exactly. Safe jobs. Yeah. That's, like that.

But my overall goal, I think I always wanted to maybe make the world better better Whether it's sustainability or humanitarian or equality, like socioeconomic equality, like I'd like I'ma-eaned-banc-a. You can be inspiration for many young young young in Indonesia. Not generation Z, but a big from Y, but a lot of young people here, about the climate. Yeah, right?

They're like, not enneh, that's, that if I, I'm going to do in some of the school, I always say, I'm saying, emiss carbon, this, as menace of the

time, it's, maybe, 1,400 gigatone. Yeah, right? And if we're carbon that's the planet, this is like 3,000 to 4,000 gigatone.

If we're emissing, we're going to 50 to 60 gigatone, and assuming only linearity, not there's exponentiality. In fact, we're just about 50-60-town, right? Yeah, exactly. Now, that,

the kids who are still who are still in 10, 15, 20, that they're still still, they're still still, yeah, exactly. And that was a really research, where like layer of the world, this is more men, it's more than it's really, exactly. So that was actually very scary thing.

And I think a lot of what Elon Musk does in terms of sustainability, and a lot of, like the longitivity of our human capabilities, that's neuro-linked. Oh, that's amazing. How we can live more than... Yeah, with how to...

...wither electrification of neuron, that's... exactly, yeah. ...and the... ...and lastly, the exploration of space itself and Mars. So, it's kind of... not from the fact that you just mentioned. Right.

So it's the finite nature of whatever is left. Now, this I'm going to dig deeper about climate change, before we talk about what what's done by the businesses'pourousan mobile electric. If, I think, this is a contribution to the emissions carbon. This is many so many things that we're doing with things that we do with the things that we're doing

the things that are the things that are in the things that are you making, the things that are going to build, bangunan, bangunan, banguan, basa, and, and, everything. That's emissic carbon is all right-diasa. Even, if I think, that, the cement, concrete, and baja just, that's contribution of the energy of the emissions carbon.

I've never heard of many innovations. that can be minimally to minimize carbon. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's been the initiative from Bill Gates to to unyuntick carbon dioxide to concrete, or to cement, to yonuttioxide,

back to the unsur-unuching with production of baja or bese and memen. Now, that, how that, for... of the people of Indonesia and asia people. This is actually a really interesting topic because I thought about it. And this is why the intersection between sustainability and artificial intelligence is really fascinating.

Because, so, what I said, Pekonsumption to like baga or besie, kind of, like, resources. We have a constraint in our nature.

But we must have, because of the d'auralang? Yeah, is it not overdullulang? Not the way, this is... I'm thinking, I'm thinking, with invention back in the days when there's this concept of Eiffel Tower. So, that, that, People, when you think that's like to make

construction that's very strong, that's really strong, like a budget, this is all of it. But I'm not who who's who made, the French, they made the construction where they minimize the use of all these resources that's really, what's the kind of, like,

it's like, but it's minima-buneruner the material, and, same thing with, this, like, like, the Baja, or Batto-Bata, and all of it, that's, I think the entire material science field, field, that's going to be rejected.

And this is also where artificial insurgents came as well into play, where it will minimize the material for, for, like, for example, to build a house. So, you just, like, the Eiffel Tower, that's now, it's like, like, bathe of these, maybe, In 50 years, we can't even see that anymore. Like we don't know, but we actually live in a house. That's, I think, it's probably going to be like like what I've been saying,

oxyda, like the whole thing. But I think about for Indonesia to the way for we can scale up, not only the use but the the production of materials. Yeah, it's a subtle line, line, right, between we consume, and we're making what we consume.

Yeah, right? Now, I'm looking at this is a lot of a massive. Yeah, exactly. If in America, I'm going like this, maybe it's more commonplace. In Germany, in Tjongok, Korea, South, Japan, it's commonplace. But if in Indonesia,

it's still, it's still, it's still, I'm going to take to artificial intelligence, since you brought it up. We've got to live in some of the ways of the technology, from the technology to physics, to physics, now autonomy,

which is very application in your day-to-day worker employment. This is how, to the front of you, in order to docent, artificial? I think it's always going to evolve and push the boundaries of what we have today. That's already. And, if now, the thing is the power-caract hardware, that's how can, like, how can do you can transportation,

in the world of the level five. Level four is Google, Wemo, the max that we have today. And because we have to have the the other part of the hardware itself, to the level that's up, so, to the other, I'm going to look like, all hardware, not just that's

there will be easily accessible, and it will be much cheaper than what we have today. Like the whole like HP, the pager, the pageer, and then, I was still, maybe, the bigger of Batu-Bata, for people, to, for people, it was,

like, we were, at America, used, yeah, yeah, the Motorola, the first came That's so-gene, so-gene-like. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Technology plays a really important role in improving the quality of human lives. And also making it scalable. That's, that's like, I was also the importance of education in this country. I think that is scalable with the help of technology and artificial intelligence. It's more to be more than we want to empower this nation with education. I've got to be. I have a confidence in 50 years to be there

This is a lot of things that's that's actually that's actually be able to be debaiccant in five-deas-butan. Sering-kally, there's people who are in gnatawain me. But perhaps they need to be aware of the dynamics, of the conversations in the places like Silicon Valley,

or Hanzhou or what. This is our task of us to dissemination, and they're not going to be able to be ecorice, because this can be ecore with disrupts and dislocation, which is the impact social, economy, even politics, and geopolitic, also, can be able to be used to cut. Now, I'm going to give data,

if I look at the share of the companies like Tesla, like, Tesla, namely. It rates at about 3,000, $600,000 per mobile per mobile the car produced, per mobile the $3.6 million dollars, which, which is $60,000 to $80,000,000.

There's disparity in how communities investations to the price of the share of the same than the car of the car and if I'd like the other than the car of the other companies' automotive like Tesla. The example, Volkswagen, GM, Chrysler, Viat,

that valuation of their per mobile production, it's about $9,000 to $14,000 per mobile per mobile. So it's a huge difference. This is a manifestation from how the company like Tesla, it's just can wrangul convergency of artificial intelligence robotics and autonomy.

Now, from here we can take, there are some of the other that's not that can't make up to do adaptation, it's going to be like this. Right, right? In a while they're just like they're not exist, for they if they can catch up. Yeah.

Yeah. The other, maybe, yeah, can be... ...can be consolidated in the sector automotive. Yeah, right, and that's the big,

will have to have, them, small, small, acquisition. So, what do you think? I want to ask your views. Is it fair, not is it? That's fair, not that's disparity of the companies like Tesla,

valuations as fantastic, it, in banding the other other. You can't know, this, the uprofinal intelligence, autonomy, robotics, in the company like Tesla, like how,

You also also has also in other like how much as sophisticated, not as a far as a job like Tesla. Yeah, that's interesting. Because I think it's the role Tesla's and the people of the people. Della, also not as success now. It has been a fourth.

It was an adulterum for a long time. Yeah. I think it's 15 years or 16 years. And that's a little long long time. for start-tapes. ...haping almost bankrupt, too many-eight, 2012. And just, at least, after that's actually plays a role in the innovations, like in leading the world

to transition into the renewable energy. So, it's not just because of innovation, technology but also the transition, if we can't so long as well, or fossil. Yeah, fossil. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's like, oh, you know, electricity, that's more to, maybe.

And it's been helped also, so, So it's the list of electricity, it's already per capitae with fossil fuel. It's the $150 per kilowatt hour. That's the break-even between fossil and electricity. This is more more than $150 dollars per kilowatt-hour hour. So it's good buy, fossil fuel

in a time 5-10-10-torn, in context of automotive, yeah? automotive? That's not. Five to 10 years, it's under the infrastructure that's been developed by the governments and

because because electric vehicles and transportation depend a lot on the role of government. And in America, in where, it's also because this value

important, so they have like subsidy, to incentivize the the people to buy electric vehicles, and of course, there's also a role to develop the infrastructure around it. Like, if, if, if, if, go from San Francisco to New York, without back back to home, that's also, it's also to be thinking,

and I think... Yeah, and I think... Yeah, and... 5 to 10 years from now, if the infrastructure is in place, if the infrastructure is not in place yet, we will always depend on fossil fuels and all these non-renewable energy for transportation. It's more to that, I think. I'm looking, maybe 5-10 years ago,

is the one of the public, district. It's 40 to 50% from total of the total of the market. And what's really, even pervasive. Yeah. Maybe that includes the hybrid. The world is totaling will be less drastic. Because the use of the car is only 5%. 95% it's put in garassi.

Or, the super, markir just in the front. Not just, not just... If autonomy is really, really, in the day-day-demand for the mobile, that's not like that's like a subscription model just to click on the same way, I want to make this, in five minutes, it's going to be in front of the room.

Yeah, right? So you don't need to buy a car. It's like Netflix. And I don't see there's the need there's a need of the production. How is it related to Netflix? Netflix is a subscription model. It's a movie upon demand.

So it's car upon demand. But you still have to have the TV, though. You still have the monitor. This is the TV. Yeah, right? Yeah, like to messen the Macan, like the application that there,

right, right? Exactly. So if we're going to go to, If we don't need to garage, if we're autonomous, we just click on the other than just. Noblem, the application, the mobile's not come without a super. That's...

Now, try to tell, this is, this is the impact if the of the other than the world is like, if you're notherst, if you're up, that's up, that's up, there's upy-supy.

There's not, in this, in a person like Tesla, how do we deal with this potential social issue or economic issue? Are you concerned of the opportunities that... Yes, ...ter disruption, can, they can't work again, because the mobile can't just

I'm like that's like things that I can't see in America, like, I was in America, I was like, oh, why no, there's,

the name's the carer I'm like, I'm like, like, like, you can, can give, yeah,

to be able to , maybe, or people who's people who's about, that's been from 2012, but I'm going to be. But I'm looking, because system is very structured, and really systemic, it's a noise. It becomes a noise.

There are a lot of other things that people could do that don't need, So, maybe they're now, maybe more than a construction of engineer, or call center, who's still need to customer service, maybe, for blue-collar, yeah, we know, that's the same. That's the same exact thoughts that I would think about

how drivers in the future would be. There might not be drivers anymore, but there has to be a lot of other opportunities. I agree with you. I think it is upon us to figure out a way to get these guys reskilled. Exactly, exactly. That is where education plays into role. And I think the entire autonomy and, you know, we call it intelligent systems.

Because this is the barbatasance of artificial intelligence and autonomous systems. This is actually important because in the world, in the world, in the world, and in the world, and the many of the people died every year. And the many of that rear-end, right? Reckless driving. Exactly.

driving and stuff. Imagine if there is actually a car with eight cameras, there's eight, like four pairs of eyes, not just one pair. Then, like... Exactly. And now they already use ultrasonic, and they use radar and lightar. So, radar is radio waves,

lighter, which light imaging, which is like lighting beams. And it's more accurate than what humans could actually see. So we know like this just, it's just about it's about minutes, or how many, but this whole artificial intelligence actually could detect it at that exact time, and then process it real time,

and make the cars more safe. Like safer than ever before. I think that's a lot. to the choir. But what we're going to be the disrupcionation to the employment opportunities, right?

In here, there's not many super, if in America, not many, if you're not much, if you, if, innovation or technology that's this

maybe to rambes to the countries of the This is a dampak there's a number of, not a little, the number of the numbers.

So if I'm from now, we've got to be the same, to be it's a great thing, to be it's important to beaucation. If anyone's stakeholders, including the super-supers and we have some of the super, this in five-year,

10 or 15-year, maybe you're not need to be able to Again, maybe from now you have to learn to reskill to do A, B, C, D, D, E, or even to upskill D. Yeah, right? It's what, what do you know? I think it's upon us to think about this and to start talking about this. Even if they're already in the less productive years.

Yeah. I mean, it has social consequences. It has economic consequences. It has political consequences. because it's not even if anything, even with electric, it's not there's a equilibrium if there's a social or in social construct that's in a lot.

This is important, if I'm in my own, exactly, exactly. Yeah, that is definitely a good problem to solve in Indo. Okay, let's push this a bit more, yeah? You're okay? You're okay? We'll talk about it again. Yeah, for sure.

Now, we've got to look at it, many, uh, mega trends. Yeah, can? But, this can be culmination in, if I've seen, there's five innovations. The first, blockchain.

Okay. The two, artificial intelligence. And the three, genomics. to the next, the five, the five, pick

one out of the five, then let's drill down on these. AI and robotics. Okay, how? What was the question again? From... From the five innovations

that disruptive I'm going to talk more than Okay, which currently very disruptive. not just history, but then, it's the future. Yeah.

That's... Because I'm going to take, to... ...that I'm going to take it. Because if this, innovation, or five innovations that's very disruptive in, it's been in a day-day-day-to-negara-maju, not there's an reason,

for they not to be a day-haping in the country be be able, like in Indonesia. Yeah. Alank-a-bye if we can be and make-application-can. Yeah. Yeah.

So, we can be more than, like, right? Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Okay, you pick robotics. Yeah. Talk about this. Yeah, I think, like,

so, okay, this actually goes back to what you mentioned earlier. You know, how can we think about for the Indo and how they're in Indo, and how, they're going to be able to be able to the Uber, the AI industry, the application, that's also,

using machine learning and optimizations. It's, they disrupt the entire taxi industry, like, now, taxi drivers, where they eventually go become Uber driver, over drivers, probably the majority of them. And this is, I'm going to look at the other, we will push that even further. You know, that first, we've got not

not seen the name of drivers like, I think probably that's in 10, maybe, 10 years. Yeah, probably. Now, I'm actually, in Indo, it's already in the current state, what we have. So, autonomy, there's a number level. Level 0 through level 5.

In the state of, like, like, we say, cars, that level 0, you need the entire humans to make decisions. is a sole decision-maker. Then if, if level one, it's like adaptive cruise control. So you only care about the longitudinal control. And then, like, okay, this set cruise to 70 MPH,

and we're like in the jallant-tall, that's already, it's been able, and from 80-a-old, it's been able to. Yeah, yeah. And level two, actually, where we're, we're also the lateral control. So, the lane-keeping, that's L2. So if we can, if we're like this, okay, we can't now like this. And that's level 2, level 3,

more than the sensor-sensor, the camera, it's more like, maybe not too bad. that's like level 2-level 3, but more accurate level 3. And in America now, there's already a lot of use cases in L3. For L4, the level autonomy L4, it's really not really not even the human intervention to minimize, you know, which is minimally, you know,

that's... ...itur. ...that's... ...that... ...that... ...that it's... ...that... that's not just the brake,

accelerations, and the styr, that's if we can't get all, that's all right? That's what's right. But because there's human for just to be in-sager-safety, we have it, and we still have L4, but L5, we don't have any of it. We don't have any of it. And we're not there,

and when it's on screen, Yeah, I'm going to go to this, like, screen, I'm going to go to this, and when we're going to be in L5, no, no, the name of drivers. And I think that will be very disruptive in the future. Like, um, you know,

can voice activated, if level 5? Oh, can, please, don't, can't, it's, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, that's... Yeah, It's right. That's the problem better, that. That's problem. Can't, oh, mobile? Can't, don't even rame? I can't even be able to sleep.

Is it? Is it? That is level 6? No, that's... That's... Autonomous, it's just to the system just, system control just.

So, no, break, acceleration, or steer, Okay, how much interaction with voice? Now, that's kind of. This problem that's better, which we're called conversational AI. And conversational AI doesn't have to be dependent on cars. It can be applied as an addition to application of autonomous systems.

Where, we've got to look like Alexa, Google, Home, that's already more to, this, like, Like, like, like, let's light, do you? Yeah, exactly. And this is also, this is also, this problem, like, which is now, conversational AI that's now that's

just as a kind of, like, I'm kind of, but, that's, it will be curhat, and not again, that's, not like, why you want to do not get turdine like,

can't, like that's like that. This is kind of, this is a hypotermia, you know? What's the conversational AI is actually an active study right now. Okay. But this problem that's different, this is in the world?

This is the level 5 or it's been jureus to 6? If the conversational? Conversational, no, this is like just This is not an autonomous system. This is not the categoricals as a big of autonomy. Bucan, yeah. Because, so, yeah, yeah.

It's very interesting. But there's also the other applications that's also, like to be cameang-can, that's a prosthetic. That's actually another thing. In the other medics, it's very, very important. Because, now, if they're lumped, they're just to make,

they can't get-gare-gark-in, they're to their own body to be able to do it, to what's what, but but it's already been developed If we can learn from the brain, from the prosthetic arms, how to make the prosthetic arms,

so then, the other people think, want to take up, this will be able to grab up, but just with the of our own the latest research about this is actually from NeuroLink,

that was a moniet that's... Yeah, can't play that. Yeah. That's actually, chip, it's in the inside of the motet. And it's, actually, is the learning input, that, input, output.

It's, it's, it's, he's just to control, where the hand is what? Now, this output, you know, we have this equation like y-y-same-x plus-C, the y-dependent variable is actually the moniat this and the x was actually the chip, data data that's into chip, then, then, it's, it's, then, it's, it's, then, it's, it's, then, they created this statistical models, or whatever,

That's the deep learning, it's not been able to statistical learning. The deep learning, it's a hardware that's quite. And, at least, when model that's in real-time, blah, blah, blah, blah, it's back into chip. You don't need any more of this controller, because now you can depend on that chip alone and the model that you already created

to control, this is the game, ping pong, pong, moniat, that. So, maybe, like, I think, this I'm just thinking just from this application this, if we're going to be texting again, just, just to think, like, I'm going to, like, I'm going to send, and not even to get tick, I think that would be the future.

But I don't know when. That's awesome, but scary at the same time. Yeah, right? Yeah. But it's also, there's a cons. There's another field called AI ethics. That's like how to apply in a very safe way, to not be, what, what, yeah, manipulatism.

Not being manipulated or not course, let we have no need to give SMS, totally he's got to go back and he's going to give to where. That's just a bitnagre. Yeah, that's... I mean, that's... You know, stuff like that happens. Yeah.

So that's very interesting. Now that, that's... Yeah, if... Yeah, if... ...you know, if... Elon Musk, he's always that, he's always about, that in the tubu of,

there's actually. The first, that electrification. One other, the reaction is the other than the other. Yeah, exactly. Electrification is that's what we've got to be chemistry or reaction to our our own our our stifact our it's quite simple,

simplistic, how it's and maybe the step the next is how he will make ayesa the reaction of our own ways our body to our human utopian. Yeah.

Yeah. That's the dopamine is too much. And this is, he said he can cure Alzheimer, dementia, stroke, or whatever, that's because it's very correlates with electrification neuron that in our head we're not. It's not just to be sure in gregers, or kaki, or to muting two-two, or just to ming-two

two, or something else to someone else, but it's if it's, if it's therapeutic, can't be able to be able to help people from healing, yeah. Yeah. Now, that, so long that's the smanguette therapeutic, if, not too never even from the garris, etica, moral, or religion. Mm-hmm.

What's your view? What's the boundary? How far do we stretch this to? So I think, why he can't say that's because it's really in the world that we're doing now. Autonomous systems, or maybe neuraling, it's just, we only need the brain and the motors, who are the movement.

The brains, it's, it's, can there's activation function, sigma, or whatever, or whatever, And that's what's what's what's what's what's what's what's what, what's what's going to control, like, I'm going to control the we're going to be. Maybe I'm just, this, this, there's, there, in our our own, it's not just like cognitive functions, but emotional too.

And if we just replace that entire thing, like, without our emotional capabilities, I think that will be very bad. And that's where the ethics of AI need to come to place. So I've ever read a study in 1940s, 1930s, there was a study, or this is a Nobel Prize winner, who's when people who's, if there are some areas in the brain,

especially the temporal lobe, who can, that can be surgery, and he makes a lot of the lobotomy. Lobotomy. Yeah, used to be very popular. Yeah, decades ago. Exactly. It was very popular.

So, it was very popular, the awards, and Nobel Prize, and people were like, oh, wow, this is awesome. And they're like, okay, because this can be embhue can't anxiety, mental illness,

we'll do all of all of all, it, it's in 1950, that was the worst thing humanity could ever You should see this movie called One Flew Over Cuckus Nies. Oh, okay.

I'm... It's a manifestation of what you've just described, how lobotomy basically got mishandled. And from there, there's not even... They can't even function as human anymore, because the emotion is... ...you know, and I think this... It actually dehumanizes. Dehumanizes.

But you know, actually the study was like one of the foundation of it was because of philosophical thinking. Yeah, I don't know if it was like Plato or Stoic, even like they, you know, they emphasize on this saying that, what, what, reasoning is the, you know, The, what is the fruits of all, like, decision-making or what, that or, like, um... Or decision-making is the fruit of all reasoning. Um, I'm not exact quote, yeah. Yeah, but, um, like, there is an underscoring in the role of the role of the role of, you know, of reasoning, but not emotions.

So if you're very, so that's very, now that's very, now that's very, oh yeah, if you're too emotional, like, you're too emotional. Right, that's on, or, that's at least, a part of the,

more prioritization, than the hearty. Now, if you're too emotional, you can't make a good decision, So if it's more dominant. Yeah. But this kind of a philosophy that was like did gentsinger-gencarsaned really,

and, actually, did foundation with Nobel Prize winner, that's like... Not about Lebootomy. Yeah, LeBotomy, because LeBotomy only emphasizes on the cognitive functions. So there are people who,

is like, like, he's really good, he's memory, from how he's okay, but why why he's like, like, like, like, like, like, he's,

like, he'd, he'd, he'd, divorced, and the other, and the other, and,

in the decision-making, when he has cognitive functions, but he can't say why. He said, oh, yeah, detil and little, he can never explain why. And I think this is what artificial intelligence is struggling with. Because we can never probably mimic the emotion part of humans itself.

It's not. Yeah. ...theircite to be it important, is it important, not is it to be able to beaithful stakeholders? Not can't the person who work in the company, that's just true, for the kind of the things like this,

how the kind of emotion that has to be in rumusant Right, right? If I'm going to be multi-stakeholder. Yeah. Yeah. So, psychologis, psychiatrist, doctor-um, doctor-um,

ahe-agamah, academici, all of all of the discourse about how, how, the constructs of AI ethics to the front. Yeah, that's true.

Yeah. Is that happening? So there is this... Or you reckon it's not adequately multi-stakeholder. It should be multi-stakeholder. But it's not yet. It's not yet to the level of... ...orang people who professing is a very different...

...opened AI. It's another company focused on, like, AI ethics, and pengemonging of saver artificial intelligence applications, where they're practitioners from the industry, but if the other than the other than the other than it's very technical, I think. So this is also from my understanding. The concern that I have is that it makes too much use of data as opposed to people to come up with an AI ethics construct.

construct. Which is good. No, because it's objective. I'm not against it. But to make upraiser it, we have humanize it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Data is good.

But you have to humanize it. What other than the topic of the public about how to humanize AI. Yeah, yeah. There has to be policies around it. Yeah. And continuous discussions to build to build an ethical AI, I think.

Okay. Indonesia to the next, you know what you're going to see how? Indonesia to the other than... Maybe not, for Indonesia, for Indonesia, only, the,

of, not a mobile-listric, not mobile fossil, maybe, maybe not in Indonesia, in the future, only the mobile-litric that autonomous. Yeah, it's not much.

Yeah. ...the electric vehicles. Yeah. But... So the era of fossil cars... ...mugging not... ...werepdbara... ...that we're going to go about the

for Indonesia, this. I wish I could see the future. But I think... ...seeing what we have today... that like I can already be applicable in Indo. At least, in the jol, for autonomous systems, that's very, very, really, It's really, it's really, it should.

Yeah. But, can, infrastructure not there, right? This, but... What, is, infrastructure that's what is it's the infrastructure that's like charging, That's... That's about 5-10-year-old to the time charging stations. Because there's SPBU.

So, SPBU can be able to be able to be able to charge. Yeah. And I think PLN, Pat Jokoewe also, that's been have angaran to renewable energy, right? Yeah. But, yeah, it's gotong infrastructure maybe 15, 20 years, I think. Yeah.

Yeah, 15, 20 years. Baja, or critiquan, or critiquan, this is only in the front of the but in the back of the energy that, that's still fossil. Exactly. If we look data, that's,

that's 85% is fossil fuel, right? But, but, but, when this, the out of the out of the bettering, that's going to be able to be able. Right, we can make, okay, everything is already dependent on the electric.

Now, now we're looking at this, from where? From the renewable, can just one percent, that's really. In Indonesia? Oh, yeah. It's a single digit. But if this is... But if this is... ...that non-fossil,

yeah, the aning, the tenagre sullia, hydro, and nuclear. Exactly. Nuclear, is... ...that if you're able to because if you're one tenazer nuclear,

can be a few thousand megawatt, that's, it's the risk of a co-ammanan if there's a caravanan, or other than what, like that's also cost. So, geothermal, the other than the other, also cost. Now, that, the government is here,

didn't have been doing tariff that commercially viable for the players of the Earth. Yeah, like in Japan, it can can be pull-hundred per kilowatt. Solar? Solar is... In this, it's very small.

And it's all... So it's very, because we're tropis. Really. And, if I'm not really, it's going to be one. One, how the technology it's... ...it can make this morehack. And in five years, it's more,

and in the five years, it's more, it's more, more, than five years ago, solar panels. And, it's not just not just can't even be it but it's been but problem for the same time in storage. Yeah, right? Yeah.

But, if this is a massive, it's been built, in a industrial, then, and then, there's been to the tariff, right? Tariff that has to make sense so that the developer or the

producer, that, that, also, can make money. Sering-kali, if in energy-terbarra-can, the example, it's in the panace-bomboomy. That, he's just going to be made-even. So, for they can break-even, so he has to make-a-peratured,

but the rules of the government is only in-per-a-bara. That's not making money. In other, the country and the other, the tariff's more than than... Is it a more than... Is it? Is it? Right, right?

This is, if I'm from the world, where the government has to show you can't give up to the tariff that's more than the other for anyone who wants to be in the technology, energy, the new, but I think, if, if it's in the front,

it's, it's, it's doronged with a motoristric, The next is in the backang, if Elon Musk, we've been thinking with gigafactory, with the development batteries, which is not only for it's to put in the mobile, but for as power generation capability in a massive. Yeah, can, he can be taken,

to colloquy to grid, so it can be able to use-loas-can to end-users. Now, that, if, I mean, it's, that can do you can't in the other countries with using the suna or whatever that's new-being or renewable in nature. I see. Yep. Yep. That's true.

In Silicon Valley, speaking of the, this, that's the, in the back of how, how how... ...that not dependent with fossil fuel, that even battery, But now, some of my friends who have also be a startup or a company that where battery is a compostable, like compostable, recyclable. That's mind-blowing.

Like compostable batteries. And that would probably be the future as well in the you know, speaking of charging. So it's like, like, like, fossil fuel, hopefully, in the next year's we will see. So the battery is to doer-ulang. Yeah. Yeah, right?

If the life's all set, then it's just to do you do it over-ulang, so it doesn't become an environmental toxic. Exactly. Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly. And then, And then, like, oh, infrastructure is just charging, charging,

that's just, but there's been a lot of, now, just like swap battery. Like swap halting, that's too much. What's your view? Because in China, there's a company that's who's using swap technology, not I can't say to name, but if I'm not even using a swap. But if Tesla, it's not using swap.

just through we're just to stop it, we'd like to locket in China, we're going to stop it, to drop out, by the back. So it's a lot more efficient. Okay. Because to nuke the battery, it's just 5 minutes. But if the battery not get tooker,

to charge, it can be 14-jamb. Yeah, right? From... It's... Okay. Maybe it's... It's 10 hours. Yeah.

Now, the way the way is the fast for the time, if you're using AC, it's 11-jams, 10-jams, that's the size of a battery. The bigger the size of battery, or if you have dual motors, it's more longer, or if you buy the performance, it's more longer. But if you just use the like just the battery's small, 50. But, but battery is an effect to the patho' long time. If the battery is big-bottraig-mobile,

like, 500 miles, 600. If you're in-checks-ne-chartage-ne-ce-peat, just 200 miles, like, yeah, that's it. Yeah, but if we want to from Cilegon to Banyam-Mang, bulak-balic. Yeah, right?

That's, that, that, is what? almost 2,000 kilometers. Yeah. Yeah. After 400 miles or 600 kilo, we have to be stop. Nongkron 11-jamb. Then, you know,

if you're going to be a half-jamb. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Full charge. Can't go to 400 mile again? Yeah, yeah. But not the suggest, yeah, that's 100%, that.

Maybe, 95, like, 90, that. And that's also, there's also, so many factors. Yeah. Yeah. If, if it's upheel, it's upheel, it's, it's...

...andergy-ne-notting... But what I want to ask, in China, this, ...the one of this one of this, he's using swap technology. If ganti battery, to swap stations, that's just five minutes. To the company,

The company like Tesla will be able to be able to be. I can't say, yeah, but... Okay, it's definitely understudy, right? It's being studied, like. Because it just makes logical sense. Yeah, it makes logical sense. Yeah, many, some of the startups, I know, that's done for like Honda Live.

They're looking at markets that's on, eh, how Honda, that's Honda, that's on the other than, that they, I think it's a very efficient route. That's a very efficient. If we're going cross-country, that's from LA to Boston. Yeah, really, no, no, no, stop in the quarter, stop in a lot, or two-month-jamb,

Yeah, exactly. All right. Indonesia 2004-5. Tell me, what are your views? Will you be back here, helping the country with technological innovations? How do you see Indonesia moving forward towards 2045? In context electrification mobile,

or in context of the kind of the of the two subjects that you're very passionate about. Yeah. For 2045, the root of all these, I think I, education, yeah, which, I think,

for we can, 2004-fellee-notice, ...and we've really made in Indonesia that we've already talked about, autonomous systems, there's definitely technological gap and talent gap that I see in this country that need to be addressed first and foremost in the next few years. But I think it's... We're probably in the right direction. But I also can't even to see to look at the education in what we could probably improve.

But in 2004-5, for the automotive, there's definitely driverless cars. If at Bounderan HI, it's, So, maybe it's hard. But right, too, trot-o-harpoon, and a lot more than... Yeah.

That's... I'm thinking, like, oh, it's hard. Really hard. Yeah, that's... Yeah, that's... And, that... And, that... ...autonomous, that's...

...that there's... ...it can be made like that... ...that it's... ...that if you can't... ...that if you can't be able to be able... ...or... ...or... When you're at the bell, it's...

If you're like to bell, it's... But if you're not going to be able to be able to... ...it if you can't be able to be able to... Yeah, it's a good idea of the artificial. Yeah, if there's... If there's... ...aumbing, that, in the way, he has... ...or it's...

...or it's... ...or ...or perhaps, like, yeah. ...I want to push on this talent point. Yeah. This is digitalization in Indonesia, this is just left landas, right? And, now, we've got to be able to get a lot — — — lacka.

Yeah, right? — that's great, too, is that way to be able to scale out? If you're blessed, because you had great parents, you have great parents who basically pushed you to learn from from from from from from from from from Atlanta, New York, to Silicon Valley, or to Bay Area. How do we scale this up, so that people Indonesia can,

like you like you, like you. Cossian, can't? There's a lot of in the Floresas, Papua, Mamuju. I think there's importance of catching up with globalization in a way that we have to train everyone

to be able to learn English. English is important, for they can catch up to be exposed to everything in the world. Because everything is on the tip of our hand right now, like internet, education. Then, then, I was going to talk about the closest friends IA, actually, and they graduated from IITs. Wow, I asked them on, like, you know, how they grew up with the education system in India,

because I wanted to know what are we lacking from, in Indo, and they have this culture that they go get engineering degree and then you can do whatever you want after. Yeah, it's not a culture that's always, what's perfect, not there. But what I see is, they push the standard of technology even in the younger age. So, they learned C programming when they were in middle school.

And I just, you know, back then, I started using computer when I was in middle school. And this is the same, very similar age, if not older. And that's one thing I can tell, they can tell, they're making, they can make standard of the technology or STEM is probably higher at an eighth grade level compared to the rest of the world, including maybe America. And that's not that IIT. You know, their talents are everywhere dominating the tech world like CEO of Microsoft, CEO Google. So I think they put a lot of importance in their technological and talent gap. And I think that curriculum that's like,

maybe not really technology or how much, but we have to increase that bar, that standard to match, or even better than most countries in the world. And I think that, I think that's a very country, would be, you know, something can be scalable. Because curriculum, can, desetal by national, for the country, right?

Yeah. They also have this, um, uh, central, so they have matriculation curriculum. They have CBSE

centralized, central-based curriculum. They have state boards curriculum. So, the kid from the curriculum, you can't be in curriculment, like, you're going to be like this, okay, you can be centralized,

there's bar more than more than, okay, you're going to be here to be to school like IIT, so they have this very high expectations of programming and all that at a very young age. And I think that what sets them apart that we can learn from in Indo. I grew up in India.

I spent a few years. Oh, okay. That's amazing. I'm quite familiar. I see. You're right. They're... Beda, manag.

And it's amazing. You know, when they walked into the Ivy campuses, it's a breeze for them. Yeah, and how the same is different. From the way from the words, from the words, you know, going by the words and thoughts of

Sergei, Larry, and Elon, they put so much premium on engineers. And this is very contradictory or contrary with 80s, in the 80s, where the 80s were the thing, but now, it's the prosan of technologies that capitalization the pastarer, even 2 trillion, that's how they can bobot-can engineers, more than more than more than than engineers.

It ties back to, you know, at the risk of coding somebody, you know, engineers are the guys that actually produce and make things. Yeah, right? Exactly. Yeah, right? They tend to be cynical about MBAs that they just know how to tell other people what to do. Yeah, I'm not cynical on either, but I'm just raising the point that's true.

Yeah, I mean, that's true for, you know, I have experience for at least three years in the software, industry. So I came with statistics background. And then, then, you know, data science, machine learning. You learn about the brain. But I'm going to company this as data scientist.

Data scientists actually, data scientists live in the house, but engineers built the house. And for that reason, I eventually switch and learn about software engineering and robotics, because I want to build the house. I actually, yeah, I don't want to just live in the house and tell people what to do. And there's actually a lot of this, maybe, like,

maybe, people, like, yeah, like, yeah, that's like, that, you know, with MBA, I mean, MBA is amazing. You know, you have a lot of networks and... Yeah.

But the way I see it, it's more like you give insights, but you... You know, there is a chance you don't know what your insights, you know, are implemented, how they're implemented, or how... Or if it's implemented at all. And that is... Or if it's implementable. Yeah. very that's where the problem is. There's a lot of people who think that I want to have career that is more product-oriented. Because maybe in the world of consulting or these things, actually, I just talked to my friends about it too.

They, you know, they want to do something that's more product-product-oriented. And that's probably where engineering comes to play into role. but I definitely respect all fields, including consulting, I think all of them are enriching, and it's according to individuals to prefer. But I can see because it happened to me as well, why I'm now becoming more technical,

even though my background is just no numbers. But this is important, this is very very correlates with the importance to make up to the product of the education that's important for Indonesia. If I think it's important for Indonesia, in Indonesia, in it's a cumulative, more students and students who,

to be learn social science. Yeah, right? Exactly, yeah. Not that social science is not not not a zero-sum game, but what's the stem-y-not-been-you-buttstemm is to-ting-te-est. if we're really, really want to make you. Yeah, that's also I'm in America, like the last decade,

every time, like both at Georgia Tech and Colombia, I was the only Indonesian. I was one of the only Indonesians. That's the only in data science, I was the only Indonesian in the 96 students' master's program. In Georgia Tech, there was actually eight people, eight Indonesians in the whole campus. So, who want mechanical, engineer, industrial, or in.

And the other than other, the other, they, they study, if not to finance, the to public policy, social science as you said. Yeah, but I can also see why too. Probably a lot of people want to bring positive impact to the country. And they see a lot of political issues, they want, yeah, that's what they want. I'm, right. You studied those.

Yeah, but I'm going to look at the from the system of the structureal, we're very consumptive. Yeah, right? Portis consumption, we're going to 50%. Yeah, more keren, if we're consuming, that we can't make it, than we buy from out. From there, we're looking at,

we've got to put upenting to make a stem, so that we can produce and jasa, that we can't? Yeah, right? That's the generalanin'y that's and I'm looking, maybe, when you will be 51 years old,

Indonesia is to produce people who are doing STEM, much more than. Because we need to produce, we need to engineer things. Yeah, right? We don't just have to social science the construct of the society. But we've got to engineer whatever that we're going to be consuming.

And that's going to be inbonged, to the more than the more than what's going to be able to if I'm going to be puttooking, is an open. We're more open. to do not for sure. For about our own, but talent from outside. Exactly.

Why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why not be able to learn here, with a scale that great, like, so we can be adieu, right? Not, not, not. And this, this, it's already, last, but if we look, like in... If we're... In international universities?

In Indonesia, not there. there's not much, in the same in Malaysia, Vietnam, last-ahir-ahir-a-hirt-in-hue, more than other. Do you know, like international baccalaure program

in Indoch, they have a lot of natives from there. There, but not to the scale. Oh, okay, not to the scales. We're 270 million people, right? And that's what you see just in Jakarta only. In Malang, but there's not. How much, it, so this is to be able to leber. And if it can be able to be

more than that can be more than we're going to be technologically adapt and will be a lot more relevant to the rest of the world. Yeah. I was thinking of the use of online learning to scale So you're... Back to... Exactly.

Yeah, right? Yeah. Right. We're... ...that we're seeing people to be communicating with anyone who are in the world, who have money,

who have technology, and who have... Exactly. Right. Not that in there, that's, we've got, we're still, but we're still

still, we're still from out, still what, from out, So that's important. Exactly. And again, as what you said, it needs to be open-minded first. Absolutely.

Absolutely. Hey, Melissa, we've talked for a long time. Okay. Anything else you want to tell us that's going to be enriching to the young generation in Indonesia? And also the older generation. Mungkin, this is also related to career development as well. There is this important concept of growth mindset.

And this is probably what I think of why Silicon Valley is what it is today and why the directors are CEOs are so successful because I see that growth mindset plays a huge role in it. Like, people who maybe background I suffered from fixed mindset too before for so many, for some time, and maybe this is more applicable to millennials where I think about, okay, this is what I studied, therefore I should just focus in this alone,

like if I get different type of assignments, or maybe, you should do this, you should do that. Right, I'm just more than more, like hardware-like software, hardware. Like I am not able to do any of these because my background is just not, not, not even not even up to, but not sufficient enough. But what I see is, actually, they're open to whatever... Divergent ideas.

Exactly. And like, oh, this is a new field for me? Sure, I'll take it and I'll... Exactly. I'm... But I am... Yeah, but I am... But my nature, maybe like,

hold type, because I was so scared. But... that growth mindset in anything you do will make you at least get successful. I think that's an important type of mindset that we all need to embrace as our 20s, 30s, whatever, in our career. I think you underestimate yourself. You have epitomized growth mindset. Just by the way of stretching the boundaries, moving from Malang to Jakarta, to Seattle, to Atlanta, New York, to be here. Thank you.

Yeah. Yeah. Not enough, maybe. Not enough, yeah. Probably, yeah. I just, yeah, I feel like I just started in this whole field. You're still, yeah. Software, probably.

Yeah, thank you. Very good. Thank you, Ma'asui, what is that? Thank you, Bagita. Thank you, Pagita. Thank you, that's Murisa Cokro, our friend from Marang.

Thank you. Endgame is a podcast by the School of Government and Public Policy Indonesia. The first Indonesian Policy School to offer a full-time master's program in English and is a production of the cinema Indonesia's award-winning entertainment and technology company. Oni Jamhari and Anga Duima Sassonko

are our executive producer. executive producers. Ahmad Zaki Habibi and Jimmy Kuntoro are our supervising producers. Hannah Humayra and Farah Abida are producers. Bobby Zarqasi is our director. Aditya Dema Pratama is our director of photography. Video editing by Felicia Wiradiya. Alvin Pradana Susanto is our sound engineer.

Ratri Pratiwi and Fira Rahmati are research assistants. assistance. Aulia Septiadi and Ferdizal Optama are our graphic designers. Transcriptions and translations by Isfi Afiani. The song you're hearing is by Neil Giuliarso, Ferdinan Chandra and Philippus Chahadi, mixed and produced by Gibran Wiriwaiiwaii The production of this episode adheres closely to the local authorities' health and safety protocols.