Endgame with Gita Wirjawan - Natalia Rialucky: Gandeng Tangan Pahlawan Pangan

Episode Date: November 10, 2021

Sektor pertanian (berkontribusi 13% terhadap PDB nasional) tak luput dari disrupsi teknologi. CSO TaniHub Group, Natalia Rialucky Marsudi berbagi perlunya pendekatan holistik dan pemahaman utuh terhadap kondisi di lapangan dalam memecahkan berbagai inefisiensi di sektor ini. Pre-order merchandise resmi Endgame: www.endgame.id/store

We've got to be able to get to the market from the landang it's to the supermarket to minimal, six times the way we can solve that, so we can give back the value, both to the consumer and to the farmers. This is NG

Hello, we're here we're coming Natalia Rialuki Marsudi as Chief Strategy Officer from Tanihab. TANIHAP. TRIO, thank you for having me, Pat.

We're going to be here. We're going to be able to talk about about your child, where, where, and where can you can't get TANIHAT, how much. And then we expand from that. All right, my pleasure. So I was born,

I was born in Jakarta, and I'm actually the other three from four and my parents are Batak and Javan So, because kentl-batak, my dad, so we have always been very tight, uh, we've always been very tight, um, we've been competing, like, because of the were the same,

for Batak, it's still important, right? Because, ma'amara, can, the Uyghah, right? Yvu Jawaan, from? Jokja. So it's like, like, the... Wow.

Okay, the combination of the... Yeah, okay. So, from the little, it's very, competitive, like, So I guess that got me into, what's competitive, so I guess that got me into, what, uh, school that's also competitive, competitive,

like, where? So I was, actually, the SMI was in Sanur, in all-girls school. And then, because of, I, too, when in SMA, it, I really, really? Yeah, yeah, I had the opportunity to study abroad.

I'm sure that can be arranged. Yeah, true. But I chose to actually join UI, I'm to go to University Indonesia, and I took international relations. That's because of the time in the so there was a lot of things happening in the country, and for the people who are still teenage, like, so the rebel is like, wow, we need to fix this country,

so I actually joined international relations at H.I.U.E.U.E. Why? Because I want to explore the world? Yeah, yeah. Primarily because I thought that, you know, in order to be able to improve, you have to work with other countries. You need to learn with other countries. There's also part of also what you call that exploring the world as well. But I was also very early exposed to debate since high school. And we also was talking a lot about how to not fix that, how to manage the conflict in Middle East.

So there's a lot of that kind of discussion going on earlier in my life. So I was very idealist, but yeah, I got to fix this. So I need to be a... And you met your husband? Yes, that's where I also met in... In Waukutte. That's correct. Yeah, that's correct.

So he was my coachman. Tell you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was very intense into debating, right? And then there was this guy who was like, always telling me I'm doing wrong, you know, this is not how you make an argument. This is not how you make an argument. I think later that I know that he actually was trying to pick up my attention.

So then, yeah, okay. So then, I think I got to get me my husband then. Who's a better debater? Of course he would say me. I think he's smart enough to say that. So, yeah, and I think now we've been married for almost six years with one kid, and he's been always a great

lifelong debate partner, which I really enjoy. But, but career your career It's just illustrious. Yeah, right? At the consultant, then, then, back to consultant, and then,

this is kind of kind of a book I've read a few of the last, that's range, where, where, if, if, if, if, be exposed with many things,

that, in the long, more, more than if it's from if he's being a specialist. It's tempting, right, right, for anyone, generation of the young to want to be specialists. That's true.

If he's good coding, data science, or whatever. But it's very interesting, is it, is it, is it, is it correlates, or capability of your to be able to really, men-beenjewan? I actually never thought about a career as something that I want to focus on.

So, I'm like I think I'm going to make up some skill. Not really. When I was smaller, my dad always, like, in my school, many people who like, like, you're like, do you, go to doctor, go to be A or B. I actually asked my dad, like, what should I be? And then he said, you can be anything in this world, right?

which I think it's very uncommon. It's very uncommon. So when he asked me that, I don't know what to answer. So, and then he told me every year, we have like a family session where everybody say what they want to do this year. So then after when I, the earliest memory was like when I was nine years old, 10 years old, everything. What I sort of realized when I was in college is I don't know what I want yet at that time,

but I know what I don't want. So I felt like my life is a process of elimination. So I learned something, I tried it, I learned it, I get the most out of it, and then is this for me or is there any other places where I think I can contribute the most? So I think that's how I sort of end up to be jumping around from politics, Hubbo International to management consulting was because I was really, again, the basic was that I used was debating, right? the ability to ask the right questions,

to really have a strong, a backed argument, how can we can't know in management consulting right, why a problem is there, you ask what's the root cause and everything. I sort of built it from there. And then after a while, I felt like there's a bigger mission to this, I felt like I can use this kind of thinking to help more people. And that's why I took a break from management consult.

from management consulting prior to my master's degree. I worked with a couple of startups. I was actually exploring impact investing, Tupa. So a little bit of understanding about how the capital markets shapes the world and how I can give back. And then after a while, I thought that, you know, there's so many things that you cannot control if you are only from the impact investor side,

from the investor side. But I felt like when I was in doing something, there's more things in your control. So that's what triggered me to be an operator. Because I felt like as a consultant or as an investor, I see many things, very broad breadth, but impact is, maybe not as a little bit as a lot of it.

So, therefore, even if I was in- So if you're just can give upocation, do-ang, right? I don't want to admit, there's some part of that, that's true. Follow-up is more difficult. It is definitely more difficult. And you're going to be in.

And you're really, now, now, that's true. That's true. Like, this, I'm going to be getting it's easy, so, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that's why, I eventually think I need to be an operator to really feel and create the change that I really want to be. Okay. Now, I'm going to cupas more down again,

about range. Because this is maybe it's about what TANIHab's has done and what TANIHAP want to do, right? Where and how do you envision? Tanihab is to be in the front, how, so, agar the pillars that are being

being there actualization. So maybe just to share a little bit of why Tanihab is there at the first place, what are the problems that we want to solve. To be honest with you, When we're talking about agriculture sector, the problem is multidimensional. There was one question that you had for me last time was about nature or nurture. It's a problem in both areas.

The nature is indeed, are we capable to produce with the kind of technology that we have? That's much. And the nurture, do we have the right policies to actually help us out? Because if we're talking about different commodities, they're still talking about imports, tariffs and everything. That's definitely influenced even the farmers on the on the land, that kind of policy. So there's a plethora of problems there. We try to take, just try to focus on three things. One is access to supply chain.

Because if you're, I'm pretty sure you're very familiar. Pockets of production is very far from pockets of demands. So access to trucks, logistics, it's most, one is access to supply chain. Second is access to financing, where we have Tani Fund as well there. And the third is access to market. where we try to sell directly to the consumer

and cutting the level of inefficiencies in the market. So in order, different types of players have different ways to approach this problem. There are a singular view. There are focus to access financing, just, there's a market a lot. For us, we'd like to start small, but holistic. Because we tried one only, it didn't work. When we just financing just, not solving the marketer, the farmers cannot pay back.

even sometimes the harvest is being sold to someone else, the money not back. When we only solve the access to market, they cannot produce. It's just, I mean, there's great programs right now, Pakur, all of, what they're doing Binawa Thess. But accessibility is still very difficult, in terms of requirements and everything.

So there is a lot of different views, some are pessimistic about the approach, Our approach, some are optimistic, but we think, you know, this holistic approach, we start from small group, from from from from Jawa, from Barat, then, then Malabar, so Jawa Tengah, so Bali, so the whole Indonesia. I think that's where we want to do, but. This is, right? In partarnean, or puttornakan, la. That's true.

Hama. and then, and then, moral, moral, cariwan, moral peternak,

supply chain, that's how much to manage it? Because, you know, you're in the business of stabilizing, be unstable. Yeah, right?

Now, that, science is, to, to get to, volatility, or variables, like, Because, the end-un-uny it can how we can't

can't make indahed-hand-hand that's true. If you're huling, it's problematic, but it's possible, that's, in the end-of-man-nengh, it's been-solusically.

If I'm looking at it, it's the peran, in context pertan and peternatant, that's how to be able to indifact- and, and the quality

production-in-st-in-n-n-n-n-lul-n-n-n-lun-n. That's true. Now that science is how to be runjacked from from above to up, then, and then, and then, with mannoling variables, variable,

that's not a bigot question, I mean, this is a billion dollar question, this. Yeah, yeah, of course. Maybe I'll share you what we do, like, yeah,

and hopefully this can answer a little bit of it. So, um, The way I see it, I think, to, petanies, the out, if you're doing this, sukurs-suker they'd hearin, yeah. I mean, pa. It's inspirations, and all of the pampanku

to get from from hilly, that's all right, for me, that, when you are faced with a lot of problems, you try to isolate what you can control and what you cannot control. For what you cannot control, the way we try to do it is we try to read it.

We can't control. We can't control it, but what are the variables that cause it? This one, that one we cannot control, is price money. So the way we try to solve this is we try to build a model that tries to read demand and supply forecast, that tries to also predict the prices evolution. So if, in some trading companies, they have these traders who just buy pattern and by experience knows how to read.

And unfortunately, we're still four years old, five years old company. So we try to model it, but we try to predict, If like, if, like, like, chabe, like, what's like, what's the other, people, like, when, typically, they're up,

when, typically, down, so when we're doing to help farmers for finance, that, we know, then three-bun-like, they'll panan to how, the price,

and we sort of, like, lock area, price to, the area, so, because price is something we really cannot control, so we try to read and play within those, areas, right?

So, we are sustainable, the farmers are sustainable. For the areas that we can control, for example, then how do we help the farmers to improve the productivity? How do we help the farmers manage their financials? Because it's the most important, part, kind of, so, there are some people who, like, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, without the monitoring, you, just, just, just, all the money, can, So those that we can control, this births small by small,

we passikin to buy input, agriculture practices also we can the amount of, for example, pesticide or other chemicals are there as possible, so make sure practice is good. So those are the things that we try to control and help, the farmers to do that. And make sure that, the thing that we can control is also making sure the supply China efficient, making sure the access to market is really direct.

So those are the things that we try to do. And hopefully by this, we got the right scale to be able to improve what we can control and hopefully at one point give a dent on what we cannot control. So that's how we try to do it. This, you know, this is, you've been able to be able to be to be able to be able to 50,000 people, right? In Indonesia, there's more than 40,000 petanee.

If you're going to say, this juicy, right, right, right? If 40 million, it's be able to beerday-and and to bemerday-can, that's allerbonday-that-value-creation. That's not, value creation. And it's, it's,

to be in a good, to, that's the way to work to beaulatism and productivity. Apalagi, if we're going to how we can make care of quality products product, product,

production, from the sysheightan, from, from what, that's what, that's what, it's, this,

can, it's tempting for many platform, to want to to move to this sector this. This, kind of 13-14%

from PDB, right? You have the early mover advantage. How do you stay ahead? Without infringing, to re-quate the commuliaan sector, which is can't be

a kind of petanee, or peternak. We're going scale up, but this is also is quite sensitive, and then, then, there's been who, like,

to this sector this. You have the early mover advantage. Talk about that. How about that? For me, I think I'll start with the view first, sir. How do we see the situation? I feel that this is like,

we're working on a, like, 125 billion market size, you can, that we think there's a lot of pye for everyone, so we don't think there would be like, you know, you'd be running on each other. And actually there's a lot of problems to fix, and we're off the field that, the more the merrier, right?

Because eventually, one of the other one of the other, like, this, like, 1000,000 people. So I honestly think the competition should be viewed as more like, another player that helps the farmer. Because our focus, we're back to farmer's, you know, more than more than it more than it. Mocker, more than more than we also believe,

as simple as startup 101, right? Like product market fit. If, turned our barang is there, there's value to farmers, yeah, I mean, people can do whatever, but if, if, if, that's the right product, yeah, yeah, people would be loyal, So for me, those are the two principles that shapes what's the strategy, right?

How come to like this? So if from we think, again, what's the other players coming, the first question for me is actually, how do we collaborate? So, like, everyone is my friend, you, so, the startup this is kind of, you know, then, you know, all, right, all right, so that's number one. But the two, if you're talking, you know, how we stay ahead,

I think coming back to trying to fall in love with the problem that the farmers are facing. And again, as an early mover, we had that advantage to know a bit better, a bit better. And also, commitment our commitment to always go upstream, Pat. Because what's downstream, kind, basically, that's typically where the money is, you're more than, and more straightforward, you're closer to the customer, you're closer to the money. But further to the, from the consumer to the forest, get musing a-d-d-d-a-dohan, actually. But for me, I guess, what the opportunity lies, sir.

This 40 million, now it's actually declining, probably, around 30 million, right? 40 million, how, how's the point of their points, they're not just, but only just, but, Thinking about how their family plans, how they access health care, how they access education. That's great really good. Very much more. So we're thinking better, getting better,

so, the gertinger than I, the language I still better, with the farmers. So how do we actually understand what point of their what and give them solutions that's really better, ma. You're trying to open a bank account for a farmer. It's very different than you open in a mall, you, yeah, but go counter,

everyone who has come up, people who's up, making NPP, Adela and Dianra, can tell many, we have to help the farmers make NPWEPWP, for the loans. So I think there's still a lot of problems that, I think,

there's still a lot of problems, because if we're just going to offline, just like this, just like this, just, not going to be able to be able to so,

so we want to innovate there. I'm so we want to innovate there. I'm set, not even more than democratization. That's more, if more than more than it, that's more than it, but this,

this we have to becked with how, how the petanee, can be able to with the issue issue that, I think, I'm,

that's true. We've, before we've got to about how many many things that's not the land that's not been used to

their people. Right. So, maybe one of one factor why, the number of the number of

that's true, it's true, from 40 million to the amount because because the power technology

but, but the powerable variable that's true. Yeah, and if if,

so as much more they have access to model, the more they can control destiny their in context of the control the power of land. That's true. Yeah, right? Now, we're talking about

inclusion of the Ulland. Because one of the mission that's mullied from TANHab is how to be making inclusion of money. I'm looking. I'm looking at inclusion Co-Cohaunging is good.

But how to be more better better and more cheap? Yeah, right? What's the secret sauce for TaniHab can't endang-inclusi to money? Cuscious is to be with the petanee and petan. I think we sort of understand what can help. I don't think we have cracked it as far as far as far as. have cracked it as fast as we wanted.

So I think this is a homework for everyone, right? To help better financial inclusion for farmers and their family, it's what we call, like, relationship at scale. Because when we approach a farmer group and introduce new product, it's not as simple as any other tech startup, like, oh, just, make a app now, just, sure, use it, like, it's very hard.

very hard for the adoption, so how to, and what works with them is relationship. So we are very proud to have strong field officers, that's from from from from from the country, be learning from from here, to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to do this financial inclusion, have to get on board on this financial inclusion, we have to find one,

so our homework is how we're doing how we're doing that relationship to add scale. What's the role of technology in doing that? And we've also, we've got to know some of the other things that, so the adoption of technology is actually correlated with the, what, the involvement of their children in education.

So, actually, the other than the other one thing for, that's actually the key, so how much the program that we're doing now in TaniFan. is to make a sub-shabat Tani, that's where, like, people in SMP, SMA, that's in the sector area of the community,

that, can be a part of our team, that introduced, what, what, see, financial planning, what's the different source of model. One thing that's the... Adoption rate is, the adoption rate is

much, much better, like, much better, even the, what, in what's the what's in the Tanihab group, who maybe not need financial support, majority is also, the petani muddha, second generation, too.

So I think that's definitely an optimism in this space, you know, because at the at home, I'm the most gap-tech. By choice, right, you don't want to see your phone. No, not, not, not, I'm always who, first they make fun at me, and then they're ghaired to me.

Right, right, advocacy is more if you're more than to be able to be to the people. This I want to take more more than, this, I'm going to talk about purubaniclin. And I think I'm trying generation muda, this is important to be able to be rankle. Yeah, right?

Yeah, can? to deserate or to stop the urban climate that's very much, if you're not going to want, or not, people are to be able to hear. Yeah, right? Because if you're going to go to people who are used with emission carbon that's that's quick and many.

Now, in the pertanian, this is important in the book-en-iklim, in the book-unusan-iclim. That's true. How we can we're to work, mupuk, and to live the planet this in context of the production

and productivity? How that, do? In advocacy, to the peternat, there is, topics, topics that's

not, explicitly, but in implicit, it's in the importance to the I want to tell you one story, when we visited our farmers in Jawa Barat in Bandung, on up to up,

they said that this year alone, we asked, how did you experience any extreme weather? They said, this year, they didn't anticipate the rain barat, which apparently happened, and and it's been to bring the pastir, so for them who don't use greenhouse,

that's the many of the many of the farmers, that's the macka, so it's being boce and bocce, because I can't, so it's like, so it's like, so can't get to get a, if you want to sell it,

if you were something that they never happened before, they said, this is something that new. Now, the way I tried to think about it is this, like, if, if I'm going to say, okay, the solution is a macro thing, How do we try to reduce the entire effect? And there's a micro-thing,

how do you call that, what do you call that, what do you know, what's the, um, what I mean I'm saying? What's the most interesting is, how to make a low-cost solution for this change, so what, what's the thing, you're talking about a couple of hundreds of a jute, to make, how about you talk about,

sumcup, like, Yeah, terpal, chemo, so, so, so it's not going to the angu. So I think the great thing about Indonesia and the sector is resiliency and adaptivity, so how we introduce this new technology so that's a low-cost technology, so they're more adaptive and resilient. That's the next big thing for the other thing for the other than Indonesia, too, sir.

Okay. about, on the use of the water, and then, the use of the pup-and-like-ing-en, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, right,

yeah, right, yeah, that's true, that's true, not only to the but, yeah, succour-suc-sucan

or, people, that's very, that can't be important, because, when I'm who's more who's not much who not much

who's not muddened, that we've got to emissy 1,400 gigatone carbon for 4.5 million years the time this year, emission is 60 gigaton per year. The rest is 2,000 to 3,000

2,000 to 3,000 gigaton. Life expectancy is just 50-an-tawn if we're just about to use carbon. Now, this, now, no, we're not we're going to switch to EBT, yeah, energy to barrenuco.

That's, if it's important, in context of the and peternacle. All right, is true. Yeah, right? It's true. And maybe I'll share you

what we see on the ground, that kind of, what, unfortunately, there's still a big challenge to do that, when the cost per unit to apply these more sustainable producers, it definitely doesn't, not go, if not even if not can't you can't not be

you can't go out, like that. So, conflict between short-term and long-term. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh-oh. Sobsidi? I don't know, if that, I mean, learning from subsidy,

there's a lot of pro-cons there, so I still believe in the power of market. Same, I'm, I'm exactly, right. So I think as a consumer, I think now what we have to shape is consumer that's who really, that's people who are people who pay, eventually the money is from the consumer, so if the consumer is willing to pay more organic producers, more sustainable producers,

then farmers look at it demand real, you're very fast, too, sir, because if we're if we're spoon fit from up-strimed, upstream, we have to have we have to be able to be there ammade, why you're actually putting them in a very difficult position. Okay, I'm going to switch gears a little. If we look at the prosan perusan tech that's big, this is a bit monopolistic,

right? In the world, right, not in America, even, even, a bit more, it's just getting to get up to see it. And I'm meddakan ajaran to the kids of the younger than what I've done in what I've seen in the 80s. Bidda, though?

Dooloo, in the 80s, the ajaran in the in the education or business or what, is how we're using whatever in context of competition that's a perfect competition, yeah? But if, if you're going to be going to be a lot of poli-

It's a bit, right? Now, this, don't even our kids our young our aspirations to be doing the people with the power of technology and that

that's not because that's not not in jubing, with the of the and peternacan. And, and the

of the sector whatever, because, the end-ugue-n-n't if monopoly that's been that's just one one.

That's right. Yeah, right. That's not, it's a bit more than to be... How do you see that happening to... Are you at risk? ...enjade monopoly? Given the market size, I think... No, not...

Okay. So, it's... ...so, it's... I think so. I mean, I hope so, because then means that there's a lot of problem solved, right? I think earlier we talked about this as well. I think this is also the downside of a startup or tech industry

that only amanguing to be a unicorn or deca corn. I think we should think less about the achievement and the status of corn thing, but the status of what... For popcorn. Popcorn is like that kind of. So many corn. But I think you should value a startup by how many problems they solve, how many people they help right? Because I mean, you can only be a startup when you start something by figuring out a problem that you haven't solved.

Otherwise, you're just another company. I think that is the kind of dilemma that's happening right now. I mean, as all market eventually, it hopefully will stabilize and find the right pace and solution. But I felt like, this, so that kind of view sort of, sort of, so, it's sort of, so, it's kind of, got to get, so,

so, really, the problem that you're trying to solve. But, this, lo, reality is, can, many of the other people are topang by institutions that for bethentingan to medaure-ulang the money

in the period of two-tawn. It's true. Sounds familiar, Now, that's... Yeah, sometimes that's that's true.

Yeah, right. Or not not even to do, I'm going to be able to do. I'm simplifying it. If we have to help a person a personan

or peternak, but, thisin-in-it-eat-a-activism that's with the endoward Ullang-Modal. Now, that's how we have jellee, can, to find investors

that have been making activism that more ming. Not as a matter for the endowran-ulang, but as a matter for the penit petanic. Yeah, right? Yeah, right?

Yeah, can? more access product and whatever, and, and, and, again, and, also, and, that's true, that's more,

to more, that's more, that's great. That would be great, as an ideal world. I've been seen, many people in the

world, that can be kek, with, with principle and commerce that can be partang-jav- -gawap-and, from the cycles that long.

Yeah. True. Yeah. True. I think that, what is the issue about instant-nity, you know, making issues. Instantaneously. Yeah, instantaneously.

Because eventually, a good investor see that, you know, when a company is solving a problem that has not solved before, that's where the money is, right, because in the long run, you are fixing this problem that eventually people would pay value for it.

But unfortunately, building businesses takes time, right? But actually, um... Yes, technology helps to reduce it. But there are different sectors, right? Ma, you can't have to do your tech. You definitely have to do a lot of O2O, so. I think eventually I am expecting more smart investors

are realizing this kind of thing. And we're happy, but actually, But there are a couple of impact investors in our board as well who have a VC like this. But we're hoping to find more, because that level of patience and, what, that's togetherness that you also need to solve the problem with the company, I think that's what we need, actually.

Then, you know, we live in a generation or era where now there's so much money. For now. In the world, if I think M2, or money or money redar, I mean liquidity in the dengare of the country of maju is more than $100 trillion. That's true. You can afford to be picky.

As they used to say, beggars cannot be choosy, but now you can be choosy. How can I can get activism that to be in clestarian of the environment. And so we can really, can't even be able to defendants sustainability. How, how we can really, to make a degree of

anyone, that can be made upheaval of our people. Because there's more, and this is, how technology has been and will be able to collapse cost structure. That's true.

So we, if I said I said, we've been saying, we've got to be in era that's the succournay with the cyclos super with

even, even inflation redacta. Because the money demographic is more too, but

asset classes still finite, the cost of capital remains low, if not lower. That's true. You can afford to be choosy. Yeah, right?

That's, if I'm not only the for leadership, not only the tanyahu but in all of the companies technology that can can't the bottom of the area. Okay, we've got about inclusive of the economic,

I'm going to go about technology, right? Technology, this, this, after-a-a-a-hue kind of, to get grus democracy. Yeah, right paradox that, so on democratization information,

that's not to be the democratization idea. I think that's really, like, TANIHAP, to be able to to more democratization idea, not only information. That's true. Ide for the petan and all the ecosystem, or the ecosystem of the ecosystem

How do you think for us? I think for us, one thing that we try to differentiate from the other platforms and also one of our commitment to our pathanee is our breadth of offers, of selections. So if you have, for example, Tomat Grid A, but there's also tomato tomato, but there's also tomato, that's not super.

I think as much as we, in our sphere, you know, presenting these different types of options is one way to do it, because there are different, there are different approaches more specialists, like what you're saying. It's sort of like,

not rucut-can, but people who like who like, for example, premium organic, that's, it's also, But there is, there not is there, products that's more more than,

but there's more than there for them to get to know? So I think for us providing the selection is one. But I guess a bigger thing that we, in terms of, like, it's at level product, but if we're level the idea, I think what we're trying to do in our company is basically having a very diverse range of team members, and we're also proud, we also have a mix of,

experiences, in terms of length of working, what, because we know we're working in a sector that's who's who've got a lot of people who've done people who have done FMCGs before, run a supply chain company. So we're unlike, maybe pure technology company, who can very tech-driven,

young problem-solving mindset just to start and grow. I think for us, we also have a lot of seniors who really kind of, like, you know, the way that's also what maybe try to contribute to your point. How the technology is built is also designed by more diverse diverse type of people.

I think eventually technology is an output of creation of mankind, right? So it's actually the result of someone's brain, right? someone's brain, right? Collective brains, so I guess when the collective brains is diverse, then hopefully the technology would be allowing that to happen, so maybe that can be interesting. The diversification of the elements of the team, it creates divergence of thinking. Yeah.

The divergence of thinking, it would democratize his ideas. That's true. And it's not always like Rosie and Sunny, right, but you definitely have different opinions. But that's a healthy debate, and sometimes people shy away from that, because again, when they go back to their social media, just they just unfollow just, if they don't have to engage. In a company setting, in a professional setting, you have to, right? I guess that's a challenge for us to, as well as a player in a tech company.

How do you create such technology, so, Paul? And I'm not quite, if I'm not quite, democratization is hainut in definition, that's only the bea-bebasan beacare. It's just amalgamation algorithm. Right, right?

That's a lot of parker, in my opinion. Yeah, right. If we're looking at social media, or platform social media, not just to be it on. It's, it's just, Just in just. Mahi perpetit.

It's, it's not-pacitrepanation, yeah, no, it's not-pap-n't-a-pacred with good information. Sorry. Because algorithm that the end-information

or bad information, it's more amplification than good information. That, if, if, not democratic, that's not even not to be an impact in the context

idea creation in Tani-Hap and it's impact on how your company can be back as a positive to all the people of the maincoup of the interests, especially the petan and consumers. That's true, that's true. We hope we don't fall into that track too. I can't see it's easy to fall into that fact, unconsciously, right?

Right. But still in context technology, we're at here, we can we look, Tesla. If I think, the price of the company per mobile to produce, that's 1.5 million dollars per

per mobile, than than Volkswagen, GM, Ford, Toyota that's the costarance, maybe $20,000 to $30,000 per mobile per mobile per product. Right, right, right, right. It's, more because, maybe, Tesla, it, has been able to

to manifestisical intelligence, robotics, and autonomy. This is it sure, that anyone else anyone that's not, to not, must be able to be able to be able to beware things,

blockchain, robotics, or what. In the day-day-hap, how many things like this Right, like new technologies and adopted. We think that it could be one of the solutions, for upstream, you know, that's the kind of demand prediction model, that's one of it, at least the very basic part of it.

But if you're going more upstream, if, if, the challenge that we have in Indonesia with such small petaken the land that's the land that's been with the petanee how do you reach scale? The efficiency and the productivity that's the same than when someone has 5 hectares, they only have 10 hectares, they just have a 1⁄2 hectare.

So this is the kind of question that we always ask, we even explored, what do we think about vertical farming, what do we think about drone-based management system for the, so I think we always test ourselves there, Pa. But I guess, you know, when you're talking about Tesla again, right, I think the beauty of Tesla is not about the technology and invention, but they managed to able to create the market, for it. Because if you ask me-

— — especially, innovator, there's not, man, many, scientists who figure out, this is like this. But if not dual in the market, yeah, not can't, you can't, right? So this is also our biggest homework,

The technology is there. But how do you create the market that will... Taddy, sir, absorb the price, or even create the system, the business process that can make the cost of procuring such technology, makes sense, that. Of course, there's a variable of time. Like, for example, what, what, what, now, now, now, oh, that's... Oh, that's...

Ah, BATRI, too, hopefully, and, PATHY BATRI, can, It's also, it's like, much, moga, and then, it's already, it's really. It's really much. Yeah, it's more than, right. So there is that variable of time into technology that influenced the prices. Unfortunately, for us, we sort of waited for it, but it's not there yet.

So I guess it's still our homework, how with all of this technology, what we can procure it as affordable as possible for the small holders? Talk about blockchain. Because I'm looking at blockchain, it's gill, the plumbuann. If we look internet,

90, from 2020, 30 years, the pertumbuan per time per town's 60% but blockchain, 120% from inception,

anguplas in 2005, 2006, so, so, 15, 16, time. And inevitably, Now, now, users have been 140, 150,000,

this in, maybe, three, four years to be able to get one to one million. Yeah. The indian blockchain, maybe, because it's because how he can decentralization. A certain this is the sort of centralistic.

How he can identification transparent, how he can make recourse or accuntabilitaz. Like that's attributes that's what they're

for sector like the partanian, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's true. I'm thinking, why, like, like, like, not be able-day-kind.

Yeah, right? And that's true. And that's how, Now this is also can be democratization, and they're being ehn't, because this is just, this is transparent, this real time.

And there recourse it, if I'm what I can't, I can't make a partangue job. Yeah, I've got to give you, but I'm not the buyer, recourse is just, this. Yeah. How about? It's definitely something that we also

also look at it's also. Maybe two things, blockchain as a technology and the use cases, as the technology, I think it's definitely something very promising, use cases that's what we're like to how this actually helps the farmer to get better access to the market and information for the pricing, that's not past,

we just haven't figured it out yet. use cases that have been implemented on blockchain in agriculture, that's mainly traceability. So, for example, a lot of European markets now are demand, for every tuna or every agricultural produce, that's been traced back. So that is one, and again, when the market is there, then the technology is meaningful and can't be used.

Another challenge that we're trying to figure out is, Because sometimes blockchain or technology that's quite sophisticated to be used a good infrastructure, you need a good infrastructure. So, right, so farmers, this is, you can use, and have access to, and it's going to, that's going to, that's really. Carbon printing, you also, that's what actually

to be PR, so I guess that's definitely something that we explore, we always follow, and how we can implement, it takes a bit more time than what we expected to be. The last, this, to be the technology, before we move on. If we look at the hulun, take a brass. The most productive in Indonesia,

kind of, 7 to 8 ton per hectare. If to Thailand, we can see 14 to 15 ton per hectare. We can, we can consume we're more than 35,000 ton per year. Productions, if it's not even import. That's true.

If we can even more consumption of rice. Consumcy of rice per-orang per-tour-tour-tour-tour-tour-tour-tour-tour-tttt40-40-kil. In Asia, Tengara, in Bebubrable, other than other countries, it's maybe in about 70. There's even about 50 kilos per-one. This is variable that's great, if we're thinkatting up productivity

our from 7, 8 ton per hectare, to 14, like Thailand. And then we're too because we're too because we're very much, that's very, yeah, that's true, yeah.

Definitely right. We're not really important, and even we can be exportier, one of the one of the world. That's kind of a good for the people and the world. What do you think? Yeah. It's a big question,

it's cool, no? It's a very big, what do you call that, ideal, if we can get there. Because, I'm not really, two things, yeah. Maybe if from, so much as a commodity first, then how do we increase productivity, right?

Unfortunately, whatever is being experienced by the smallholder farmers is also a result of the, what, the regulation, you're the minister of trade for once, you're a long time ago. But you know how, kind of chicken and egg when you're talking about import, there import, so, not produce,

or not there's not there, so it's always very difficult, how to gauge that. So, sometimes I think, if we're going to increase productivity, produce more, but we're going to be more, but there's import, no one's the right time. Import is, when is the right time? Import, is, it's not going to the national.

Food security. Not going to import if there's there's surplus in the country. Cholary if you import, it's not in Indonesia. But if the barang of the brass. If there's who are who's matty,

yeah, well just, because here not many, but I see, see, if we can double our productivity from 7 to 14 tons per hectare, we can produce maybe 70,000 tonne per time.

If our consummity our 35 jute ton, we can export 35,000. What we get more than if we're down, consumption our consumption our from 140 kilo per per-one to be

about 100. Man, it's staggering. Yeah, and if we can export, that's, devisa. And that's

that's all along with the social of the people. If you're talking about how to improve the productivity, it's definitely something that we can look into a bit deeper. Cuma, but it's long, but it requires a conversation.

That's true. Yeah, right? And then this type of conversation will be more cool if it's going to go so. Yeah, that's true. I think that's why we also need a lot of innovation on the upstream. Because I'm thinking, again, one question about productivity, it's, can, it's going to bebit-ne-not-bid-ne. That's from the end of the end of the

the bit of the bit, then the bit, then then then then, then, like, how manage, maintain, and to be made, manage, to maintain, and to be around, whatever, and then what's after it's done, after harvest, handling it's how, so, so, it's quite panang, and the thing about agriculture is different months, it's different treatment.

How do you manage the rice field when it's some rainy season and when it's dry season, and what do you need to do in between, to make sure the soil is still healthy. So that is a quite complex problem. That's, I think, again, like what you're saying about narrative, right? Because nobody is talking about this, because not be exposed, the problem is a problem, but not be piled-pilah,

so, the problem is, there's a problem. Problem it's, in the bagian monotering is what, the monitoring of, in the abiding of the bibit is what. Then we sort of bucket that as a complicated problem, and nobody wants to touch there. So I guess this is also one area, where innovation is required, how to fix this.

And I agree, when the productivity is very high, farmers' livelihood is better. I see, again in context of technology, there's many in Indonesia, especially, this over COVID, in 20-bunice that's not able to do adaptation, that is they're not can't show you can't

can't. Yeah, can. Kolot, keke. Yeah, right? It includes me, to some extent. Because, I really, right. I always want to show up but there just one thing I can't

make sure that I can't show upkaan. That actually entails technological challenge. Yeah, right? And, many, There's very very micro, small, and the middle, because they can't

not can't show up they're not able to adopt the technology. Now, this is back to technology. If I see that in the country like Israel, technology drip, it's very

very, to helpang them to be in the country agro. One of one one relative is very very piawey-a-e-so. how they can't even yulap, panang

baser, and it's a huge because of the permerdaian drip, and, of the deep reserve, that's deep aqua fire in the above. But we have to be to show up to the technology, especially in the peternacle and pertanian,

because that's a pakan that's essential for our day. Now you're talking about drip, right, Pa. Actually, actually, a couple of our farmers who are actually used some programs that use new technologies like that. One thing that's about when you're trying to introduce technology

is the mindset of experimentation. Because implementing drip, in Indonesia is not as easy as you think, because our land we're in gondung, gondung, so, so, like, so, drift is ming, but, and then, then, it's down, If the land lander, yeah,

the drip now, this is down, it's the purpose. So, I mean, when we introduce something for the farmer groups that we work with, sometimes it's been meant in, because, sometimes response or feedback their resistance, it's grounded. So because it didn't work,

like, why are you telling me to do this? It doesn't change anything. So, really, handholding that, it's, am, the relationship at scale, He's still a PR-bessar, it's not that they don't want it, and I told you about the family and the influence of other people

that make them make them try, but, what, the path to result is, it's kind of not straightforward, it's just to mutter, and we have to make it, how it works in our context. So that's, I think, it's very exciting to be exposed to and to help, because having the technology is one thing, but adopting it is another. It's not very people.

It's not so much to pleset 20-bunice in because they can't not even to show up from the the most of the most the biggest, and that's true. And it's systemic in society.

Incapacitusiness to mennuching to be correlations in their can't make adapt to any upon, technology,

right, okay, we get to to topic, I want to go about about about the penedican with you. After, I mean, I've been talking where penidicant

it's important to be pertain to be pertain the curriculum. It's important to be pertain quality of the students and the sui-n't. But, which very, it's beenicarackan

that, that is, guru's. Yeah, right? And, study, too, that it's really that's really, that's the top 20%

that he can't do you can't do with 1st5-year ahia. Oh, really? Oh yeah, imperish. And guru that's at bottom 20%, so if from the purgurant he's the lullosan top 20s,

that if he's going to get in a year, that's a half a year, right-a-tah-tah-tahearned because, but if he's at bottom 20% from school school and teach, I see, I'm going to teach,

in a year, he's a half a year. Now, this, Tanihab, now, can, you've been recruit people who are very quality. Tanihab, is in a ushasa, not only make money, but, also,

to make money, he can have to ... ... ...that's all stakeholders, not only the consumer just not only the petaned-only, but in-between is there. That's true, that I'm seeing what you.

That's what I'm seeing the part of you, to create delta that's great it's enormous. You have any views on that? I think we're very honored, and to have this opportunity, to be trusted by so many people as one of the players in this area, who's like, there's much, this,

you know, here's there. I think what's very important for us is to come from a place of humility. Because it's very easy, as a kind of can't come down with technology, oh, everybody needs to listen to us, it's very easy, you know, as if we have the answer,

that, you know, I guess, in order to fulfill that role, our task has to be able to listen better, that's what, like, we try instill in the company, because, again, without you understanding what's the issue of the problem, any kind of solution, you're mental-a-just-se, so, I think, when you're saying about our role as an educator,

I think we'd like to show that we listen first, that, we listen first, and in in adopting something that new, what, what, what's what, what, the other than it, not it's not with their, we're not open to feedback, feedback, too. So a lot of things that, one of the privilege as being started up,

can change quite rapidly, you can't, this works, this doesn't work, and you change, that, but it definitely requires a lot of, what, what, what, what, making sure you're not lost in the track, because, kind of, when you're hitting a lot of roadblocks, roadblocks, disengagement, oh, what, what, this technology doesn't work,

or, like, why, why, you're not competitive and, and so all of it. So if we're just to hit some pager in the front just without asking why, you can't really go in, so that's what I wish the company can evolve to be, that we understand, we listen, we understand, therefore we can find the solution

and help others to do the same. Because a son's not just in school. He's be able to learn in the school. He's be able to learn in the water, learn in the pastar. Yeah, right? I'm looking how for Indonesia, the quality of the pediccans

more... ...migal, ...migar, we can more narrasica to the whole world, and the praneraneraner our world, our plan we're going to be relevant from today,

to gemapotany, and whether that's paradoan A, and the peradapan B, that's true. It's very enormous. And, and, what you can do you

can't be able to the key-teningan that more. Okay. This, If I see this, these are the businesses in America, this is the end up here that's the trend is, featureization, where they're going to be a good day,

and they're looking at something that's out of the domain, they're, ehnog, tepuk. Okay, you can go with the buy-and-berry strategy, or you featureize. There are a lot. There are who doing buy-and-berry, but there also who's actually featureization. Are you at risk of being featured by your competitor or

or a company technology that's more with the opportunity of featureizing into a non-agricultural domain? I think I'd like to answer that with going back, what's the end-game? The purpose of the main. Yeah. Yeah. So I feel like doing featureization or buy and bury or any kind of other role of strategy or anything, that's a tool. It's not what we, not the, but the reason, that's not,

IPO, that's not M&A, that's not. No, no, no. But if we can look at something that's great, that, oh. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I understand. So, if we go back, if we go back, if, if, if, if, PR is we really want to improve efficiency in upstream, increasing productivity, reducing the steps from source to market. And there is a potential for featureization or being featured.

We don't see it as a risk, but we see it more as an opportunity to actually give back more, to really get into our game. So I don't think we ever see that and discuss that as like a threat. And even if it's, what, that opportunity is open, we're coming to come back to the partanion. How will this help us better fix and improve the upstream in Indonesia? That's like that, sir. Otherwise, we'll be scared all the time.

Well, sometimes paranoia helps. That's true. That's true. But being too content is not good. That's true. That's true. I'm going to go about food security. Yeah.

How do you see it? When do you envision Indonesia as being completely food secure? And this can be a different type or two definitions. Definition of the fatanant pangan, it's be able to be artican, you not just to care about where I'm going to make it's there. I'm going to be on the table.

Want import or from the country, there's one way of defining food security. But the more rigid definition of food security is, I'm pasting, the makan that I'm going to take from the from the country. Which school of thought are you in? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think for me, it's more like sequencing the time, the first is like for the short term, and it definitely has to be there. Availability definitely has to be there. Because what's about food, as you mentioned, it's really the bahamac, you cannot survive without it. It's about survivability. For me, for us, that's, that's a must,

it has to have in short term that's definite, it's a must. As we grow, I think the value of, the quality of the quality of the quality of, of the food and the quality of the agriculture sector in itself will be healthier if the second happened, and the second has to happen in order, like cycle, like, like, when the second happens, the quality of the food is much better because it's nearby, it's fresh, still high nutrition.

So I think if, if the first, if we're available, then we talk about the second, the second would eventually help availability it's more quality. So, with the citas of that, so you're thinking about two tracks. The first term track is, but long-term track not be able to tetarance,

but the question about productivity in this the question about supply chain is because, because, is important something is easier than just getting fruits from Malang. You know, and the frival is quite varied,

And, sometimes, if you see, if not d'allething one, you, it's kind of, but then. If I'm not ideology, but maybe, the polo-pickering is, we have to be made in the country. But if not there, we have we have to have to beabasan

to come from the world. Because not, not all that we need to be produced in the land of the and, if it's, Variation from the world that's also, it's good, right?

Now, it actually leads up to the notion about possible internationalization or regionalization of Tanihab. Yeah. Yeah. If we're inbunkus it, that's with the way, yeah,

so long the macarani is at the table, never mind where it comes from, but we're going to prioritize, This is from the country. But if we can't, we can't come from the other the country. I'm seeing that we can be pern to be

there, regionalization. And we can get to come from Cambodia, whether that's tomat from Cambodia, pet from Malaysia, or from anywhere, is that something that would have been concocted as sort of like a plan? I'd like to say that the regionalization

dream that we have is the other way around, we bring our goods outside. Because getting goods inside, there's already so many players, of course, like, yeah, tapung, like, beaung, boulomba, that's, kind of, that's, you know, it's not even though, like, not even though, but not even though, so that's already stated school, we think,

and our role. More outward, yeah? We have to, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because if, if, if, if, if, not brought outwards, people can only say that the best mango is the Thailand mango, for example, but they never tried our godong ginku, right, so they never tried our salak, what is saluk, so.

So I think that's the dream, that's the dream, but focusing on Indonesia first, but also bringing Indonesia outwards, because that's, I think eventually the value is in, like what you said, right, if, if, if, if, if, if, we're not there, we have to, we have to, but we're also many of there. And in order to do that, we also we also want to make access market,

so, actually, market of the petanianian is not just Indonesia, there's actually a lot bigger market out there. We tried a couple of times by doing export. It's not easy, but we did in small containers from our farmers. But it sort of teach us, so, actually, PR for export, but demand it actually,

but demand it's actually, yeah, so I think how we can help the farmers to get there is definitely something we want to believe. But it's, you have to, you mentioned Thailand, they're too very piaway, from hulue to hilly. That's true, true.

Yeah, if we're going to airport just, the kerosan just, yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. they're hululung, they're also new-hulutability can be puttick and be partang-javocan.

That's because, because, how they can make thembegaghan. Yeah, can't. Not gampang to to lembagan things like that not we're not

it's going to take time. Yeah, and, and, yeah, just, it's just that it can This is what we're doing to do you want to ask. We've got about the change of the climate

and how we can make up productivity with a way that we're still to show you're about the environment. This is about the o-tacan. Protein is very important. Right, right? How do you, how to make to make up production and consumption of protein in Indonesia?

Yeah. If we see, in Indonesia, the consumption of danging sapi per-one, it's about 3kilo. But if in Brazil, Argentina, it's in 40 to 50-10kilo. Yeah. Maybe, because that, they can produce

Mersey, really. Yeah. But, yeah, I think, like, to see, banks Indonesia to be a banka that's great, pint. And that's, can, it's not only to ajaran, but also,

but it's not only to beckoning, and it's true, ma'am. And, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. We also looked at the problem, and it's very difficult, because eventually, what someone's someone who

is, it's, on the dompet of, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, pecipier, is more. That's protein. Yeah, but... Not even...

Yeah, but... Yeah, but... It's not... Right, but... That's more... I'm just kidding with you. But you get my point, right? I get your point.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's how, yeah. Yeah, so. If, I'm just... One, affordability. It's something that's something that's the most important. But two, knowledge of this food variety and their nutrition content, it's something that maybe we also

also also, you also need to help, you. For affordability, to be honest with you, beef is still quite expensive, like, than nassi and the other, or as a say, like that. Because we have import. Right. Right.

Sapi, in Indonesia, is not more than 12, $12,000. Aya, maybe, $2 million. And if we want to increase,

from 3 kilo per-per-one to 20-kil, people per year, we have to have stock, we're about 60 million acres. But it's a real estate play. If you're to make an Australia, one sapi, one hectare. If you're going to put in the

one hectare, it's about 40 sapi. Yeah, right? Yeah, just to pick up to Australia, we're tumpuging just just the apie. That's just, it's just to think of it. I agree.

So, definitely the stock is still to be there, but we also we have to make Indonesia eat more the nation more of the meat or protein sources? Yeah, maybe not, not usa daging sapi, but, but it's lele, or to chipir. Yeah, right? That's, can, protein is there much. The can even ter-gerus,

the pasok or the jumulhan. That's true. That's, I don't know, is it in your weekly conversation How much discussion, how to we can menopang that we can more consume the protein? It's definitely, because, at least from the business point of view,

also, what the variety of the produce is also very good, when we're not, when we're diversified, typically we're more sustainable, resilient, because again, we're still playing with commodities and the price fluctuation is very strong, So we have to diversify, and when it's really, consumption of the other source of protein

is also a big problem, definitely there's a change in habit. Price is definitely one affordability, but the knowledge about the different sources, why you know, this type of thing. And the other, the habit is, for example, habit of food is is nurtured, you know,

what's the mother that's the mother's that's the other than the person will cook that for the kid, you know, mutter just, if there's, no, no, there's that nash, with the elora

and beaummerh, so, that thing. And, nassie is a bagul. Yeah. That's true. That's true. That's true. Now, yeah,

Mundahunah, can be more be per-peran, or should be per-peran in the process of vocation, so, diabetes, you know, more than 30% in the calangans of the people of what, in the clangeloomberd, that's not to mention stunting, yeah, that, that's true.

Yeah, how, for we to, I don't know why, people Indonesia, to, make nassinu many, okay, like, because, loughed not, or it's not, or it's not. So it's jabonding just it's just to jabanin just with nassi, but what you have to be mapping is,

where lauchy can be able to be able to increase in nutrition. But, but, all of the kind of glucose, or high glucose, it's to be turnt. I mean, there's a market-driven way of doing that, and it may require a lot of time, because to expect some habit to change. But another, what like, some kind of a booster to change

is definitely also policies, right? I think some countries apply that... So cool, I've given up on policy. I'm going to I rely on policy, but I've given up on policy. Why? This is, we're going to divergency on posture of the biggiatur of digitalization

with what we've seen in private enterprise. This is very exponential, this is very linear. Right, right. It's playing catch up. Just take a look at the testimony this, in America, how senators

who asked, I think it's not not get what he'd know what he'd ask you. Yeah, right? Now, it's how we can't

make regulashy something, to use a paradigm steam engine, but although what's deregulation is a paradigm digital.

That's true. Now, that divergency that's not. Now, so I'm more I'm more with,

maybe, with, maybe, advocacy, and education, in the community of the world, and how they can show them to be able to beaterbukaan, and then

befriend technology in a bigiakshana. Yeah, right? N-game of Tanihab, what, Ria? We'd love to say that this is also a reflection of how I see things as well. We hope that there's no endgame, but we hope that there's always continuous

Perennial, yeah? Yes. Yes. Abadi? Because if you say that the endgame is, for example, at least right now, one of our mission is, we want to be the first door or the first person who helped pick up harvest of the petanee, right to consumer. That's really what our government.

You collapse the intermediation. Yeah, yeah, we collapse or we work together with them, become a part of us, where, yeah, it would be efficient. I don't have to handover six times, just to handover to us, one door, and then to come to us, one door,

you cut all the inefficiencies in supply chain, in cost, food loss, you know, in the long time of the journey and quality, you eventually, making price, it's actually,

because cost of transport, but also because reduction of volume. So it's actually six times, we've got set up from the land that, to the supermarket is minimal, six times.

That, we can solve that, so we can give back the value, both to the consumer and to the farmers. How do we become like razor thin in our efficiency, and really, like, to the closest seconds, we're really efficient, that's our dream. But after we reach there, I'm pretty sure, There's still a lot of problems, ma.

Once we get there, we know then we have to deal with the farmers' livelihood. Like what I shared with you last time, right? One metric that we always measure, from four times we're being up to start, the time we have contributed to the farmers' income increase. Every year it's around 20 to 25 percent, you know, but is that really what is welfare? Is that really livelihood? No, that's really lifelihood?

No, that's, they're income increased, But there's increase in access to education to the child care, to healthcare. It's like, okay, now we go to, how do we provide this health care and, what's the, what's the family, so. So, like, we're thinking we're really, how do we get close to the farmers,

help to be the first door, and then improve their livelihood. So then we believe everything is circular, right, right? with happy farmers, healthy farmers, happy family of farmers, the produce would be much more in quality, much more healthier, the consumers would be much more like, like, what, what, you know, can consume things, and can be, and mutter again,

the value would be given back to the farmers when the consumer is happy, so. So that's, if you think about the cycle, it's like farmers and consumers, like one loop, one loop, every year we want to expand the loop. From that only transactional, you'll buy, between consumers and farmer, and the livelihood of farmers and consumers,

and for example, thinking about their families, thinking about bigger things. So I guess, that's the only way for us to think, you know, long-term, and make decisions also on a long-term basis. So that's really what we hope for us. How many of the million people who will get in five years? Our target is at least in 2024, at least a million. So if we can apply the speed, you know, the tech kind of...

More slow. Yeah, more slow. I don't know, hopefully 5 to 10 in the near future. That would be great. And again, by no means we want to do it alone. By all means we want to collaborate. So I guess it's an invitation as well. for everyone who wants to collaborate.

And I like to externalization of the things or products that's great. That's a dream. So that means you'll require regional presence. Definitely, yeah. And that's within the works. Definitely within the works, yeah.

What's your personal endgame? Is that your personal endgame too? I'd like to think so, but perhaps different scale. It's more towards how I feel I have impacted people that work with me. So when you ask me, Pa, again, how did you switch from consultant or investor, as operator, the biggest problem is managing people, but there's actually also the biggest asset, I'm pretty sure you also understand it, but because in this world of managing different talents, different people, different ideas, They realized a plethora and richness of assets,

there's many opportunities from that. So, if I, I'm the endgame that. How in every relationship that I built, because I'm not a specialist, so I can't say I want to be good in one. Neither am I. Exactly. So I value everything that I do,

and every interaction that I do is how I affect and being affected by the person that I interact. with and how I help or manage to impact the person's life positively and for me also to grow as how I learn from you and other people that I work with as well. I guess that's it, Pa. Any question that I should have asked but didn't ask? No, I think you covered everything. No, I think this is a great opportunity to share all of the ideas. and I'm very happy that I get the chance to share it with you.

Thank you. Tumann, that's Natalia Riyaluki Masudi, Chief Strategy Officer from TaniHap. Thank you. This is Endgame.