Endgame with Gita Wirjawan - Nicko Widjaja: Belajar Meramal dari Pemodal Ventura

Episode Date: July 8, 2022

Segala sesuatu ada masanya. Tapi saat orang lain mulai pesimis, itulah saatnya kita memulai sesuatu. Dengan pengalaman lebih dari 1 dekade di permodalan ventura dan hampir separuh hidup di dunia startup dan teknologi, Nicko Widjaja sudah terbiasa berbicara apa adanya (dan tak jarang juga menyampaikan kabar buruk) kepada para pendiri startup. Apa yang mendasari menyusutnya modal untuk perusahaan rintisan (startup) di seluruh dunia? Dan berapa lama koreksi yang disebut-sebut sebagai “startup winter” ini akan berlanjut? #Endgame #GitaWirjawan #NickoWidjaja ----------------------- Saksikan dalam versi video: https://endgame.id/nicko Pre-Order merchandise resmi Endgame: https://wa.me/628119182045 Berminat menjadi "policy leaders" berikutnya? Hubungi: admissions.sgpp.ac.id [e-mail] https://wa.me/628111522504 Playlist episode "Endgame" lainnya: https://endgame.id/season2 https://endgame.id/season1 https://endgame.id/thetake Dengarkan juga di Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/72q1Xji... Kunjungi dan subscribe: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCu8f... https://www.youtube.com/c/VisinemaPic...

What's the most... what's the least like that's the founder? When to stop? And start over. That's not just... There's this paradigm of time that in our, like I've invested five years' I'm in here.

I cannot stop now. Maybe that's a bigan from cultural context that we've got to maybe, that's... There's this... Paradegma is wrong. I'ma think about I'm not, I'm going to be able to be able to be it's just like, I'm going to be able to be it's just like the way

the same game Hello, time, we're coming Nico Wijaya, the impinan from BRI Ventures Tentunuch, already know he'll, because it's long been in the world Ventura

or model Ventura or venture capital. Nick, thank you, Ms. Gita, for your time. Am I, like, the first VC you have? Or, it's already there before you? Yeah. But we've got to be able to with the other than companies

that are the company that are doing... Startups, yeah. Yeah, startups, that's... So this will be a new one. Thank you. A pioneer. Or pioneering effort. Thank you for your time, ma.

But what, what about, what you know, from the life of your life, from from, and then, can't get in VC, how do you know, so I met this girl. I mean, seriously. The couple weeks ago, so she learned big data analysis.

Big data's, from Feng Shui and from the garis and that's like that's like that's like that's like that's so many lique, like that so I guess it represents how I ended up the one of the CBC, you know, CVM and you got, because it wasn't a smooth right for me, right? Ending up in VC, perhaps has anything, you know, everything to do with my upbringing. I was a dreamer, right? Perhaps I'm like to say,

like to bea-hya-mai-al, and then romantic. What's going to do you? Astronaut. Yeah. Because I was really into, you know, UFO and stuff. And of course, you know, when you see those, or read those stories about journey of Marco Polo, and the other than the other, it was kind of, to me, it's like a movie playing.

Every time I read those stuff, right? And so when I was in U.S., it's, in the U.S., in the U.S., from Oregon, from Oregon, from Oregon. Corvallis. Corvallis, is, it was a, what, the city that's only plazir, but it was a little. But, but india. Alamu.

You've been there? Yeah. Oregon, Washington, that's good. Mount Bachelor, there's there. And yeah. So anyway, and I was like very interested in the story of Lewis and Clark, the pioneer that, you know, the pioneer that, you know, the, you know, that explored the Pacific Northwest.

And in 2000, that day that, the beginning of the dot-com bust, maybe. So I decided to... to move and pack to the Bay Area. Yeah. March 2000. Yeah. And look at there...

Burlumann there's... ...there was... ...and there was like... I was like standing in the middle of the ruins of the dot-coms. But one interesting things that I observed when I observed when in there is... You know, all these founders, entrepreneurs, they're not out from Silicon Valley.

they disperse, right? They set up new camps. The investors set up new shops. Like federalism. So, confederati, that's the ex-nautarche, Altafista, net-scape, they gather together,

then, something like Yahoo, Google, or Google, or Google, that maybe. And then, PayPal, you guys. PayPal, PayPal, the PayPal Mafia, in the time in time, and trying to explore a new frontier

that's the name, you know, later on we can't as web 2. Yeah, and Facebook started 2002, Twitter 2004. Then we saw the eBay that, maybe reached their critical mass post.com bust. And it was a very interesting time for me to observe. And I was in my early 20s, And of course, like, you know, you know,

you know, a panangang that's not-percaya, like, there's a lot of, so I tried to get in. I try to get in as, what's just, the main, so when my peers, maybe,

when my peers, maybe, uh, joint consulting, arms, or join, something like ABB, B.

or something like traditional banks, like Bank of America, Wells Fargo. I'm looking at one. I was a traditional banker. But you know, in your time it was different, right? It was different. So, better.

Perciaparaparang. Yeah. Bed back. And I still remember when I moved to the Bay Area, I didn't have expectations like to be like to not even analyst, even that day that I just want to get in, you know, I just want to be in the middle of everything. So I, so I did a lot of menial jobs.

Minial jobs, that I'm not only from data entry, troubleshooting, but anything that's just on just, and I was 24, 23, 24, I was, just to look at the culture compared to what I'm getting out of this job, right? Whether I want to build a career,

the day that's not, so, I really want to be here, I really want to be a... You want to be with a band. Like if we look at the band that we idol-lain, I'm not what I'm going to be, so, the rodis,

who, who, who, who, who, sound check or what I'm a important I'm a big-to-dochie, yeah. So I'm a groupie, yeah. Yeah, I'm a big fan of a startup. I'm like, I'm big, big fan of,

on, we're Steve Jobs, we're, his return to Apple, 97, and it was like glorified into a TV, TV, what, movie for TV, yeah, The Pirates of Silicon Valley. That's in 2007, if I saw that, like that. Oh, wow.

Bill Gates, at all of the beginning, yeah, in the world, and everything. Oh, it's classic. With Noah Wiley. And there's a lot of documentary for the dot-com this, that, if, if, there, if, there,

any, gov or, or, what, what's about that's howlopalry that's so I was enchanted by that world so yeah I think my last job disana it was was content writer for Palo Alto software so there's a there's a business plan templates that you can

crunching in numbers and come out of projections but I was there just to daydream I was like the plan like pura-pura-pura-dra-d-d-a-and-so I was really good in creating decks, like that? But, when there was, there was, you know,

not getting coding, it's been a kind of, that's not being under-block, like, that's not being able to, that. I did study a bit about coding, even, because, I thought we spoke about, I think my life brain not even got to get

so I'm not too much if you're being modest but I know there's a role for me in this new world which is kind of telling the narrative of it

so so if you're notton when I was probably the old English writer who wrote the battle that's

I remember back in the day, I, I journaled everything, the bust and the rebuilding, you know, this founder, that's founder, and, you know, every little thing that I can find out about him. So them or her. But so, so it's what, so it's really, it's very, it's really, really, really, I'm going to I'm like that's the role that's multiple, there's the, of course, the shaman, maybe, that's the commanding,

the coding, there's chieftain where the chieftain this, maybe, the left the battle, and the other. So I think my role was like the Oracle, the journeyman, or the, the, what, that, that, that,

take up to the story this. So, this is what you've learned in college, anthropology? Of course, there, we're there. We're learning oral traditions too there, stories from generations to generations,

the passed down. And, after that, how much a tradition oral to be writing, and evolution of the

and, the evolution, and, culture. I was really interested. to that too. Like I said, maybe I was, what I'm a helpless romantic. If you have to have romanticization, if not, not not it's not.

Romantization is, you know, I'm, you know, I'm one of the first guys from Indonesia, maybe, that's been there, that, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's, there's a really, because the ability to tell the, to tell the narrative, right? The side of it. And if we're looking at the companies that angle, that story angle. Whether they're creating impact,

or they're building something for the future. So everything is connected. And I think one of the key advantages, too, to learn liberal arts is, you know how to connect the dots, right? even though dots that's not be a good-rubunary bridge that you have in your head. Try to connect one thing to another and becoming something. In your view,

the companies are the great day, that's many who've been melewate some episodes that's kind of crisis, in 2000, yeah, we'll look at it. Amazon, we'll even. Apple, we'll go ahead.

But Apple also has also in the crisis before. Yeah. Now that, it speaks for resilience, the companies, but there are also pastcha 2000, that's from, that's from, Twitter, like, Google, like, shortly before 2000,

did-dhousand, right? Around 2000. Or they're about, yeah. 2001, 2002. Twitter, Facebook, that's pastcha 2000. The crisis that we have we have the last year-a-a-half-a-half-two-five-a-two-de-a

in terms of correctsiness. Yeah, can? Is it? For example, the companies that can be able to be able to be able to be going to be able be able to be able

to be able to make sure did did-addified Or not as straightforward that's in the sense, in the sense, I think that happened after the crisis, it's probably

better better if we're going if we're not only the dot-com bus of 2000, but 2008 when the global financial crisis also gave birth to to companies like Airbnb.

Butto companies like Uber. And market corrections, it always, in every cycle. This is the next cycle that should be, maybe, if we're partikin, cycle that's the corrective 2019.

2019, to have been a lot, to be able to be able to becairms to this, this overvaluation of many companies in the US. Then 2020 happened. 2020, it was like a very unique time in our lifetime. Unique time period, where we're dealing with a non-known virus, a non-un future. After that,

we've got to the world's more reliant into a lifestyle that's more technology. Yeah. We'll see, if we're at in 2020, that, almost the same of technology,

zoom, and then we look. There's, there, there's, there, If you're dox, if we're not even though, but in the ASEAN we see limited, right?

C-Li-Li-Li-Li-Lumat, almost 900% the stocks. And then, we'll see also, all the companies that are private, it's, we're just, we're talking, like, Nikola Motors, ever did not say, Nikola Motors, that's ever, that's that they raised 3.3 billion in 2021.

And, and, unfortunately, the fact that, it's not, it's a scam, yeah, yeah, many that

there's, there's start-up eduttec in India, Vedantu, named, it's even, the valuation, from, if, if,

million to two billion in just several months. So we're dealing with the unknown future that we think, this new normal, it's permanently alive as in 2020, in the room, with, with drone to where, and, and,

and, it's, from there, we're from, this, this, And then, after Netflix, we talk, there's been a lot of competition

in OTT, right? There's Disney, there's HBO, Amazon. And Zoom, too, it's corrective very, corrects, about 80% the same. And we'll look, the subscriptions that's

that's the two-jutte-puechew-pregnown two-juta-penguna in this, this this is this this ishaping this this ishacki last this but I'm not saying

this fringe of event 2020 they're they're and they're correct and it's with Ukraine Russia that's

that it's also and inflation and inflation and interest and if we can look also If we're not only 20201, it's global, in a year period, it's actually,

almost 600 deals globally. So, every quarter to to make up 150 unicorns, so long a year. So this is a little un-uh, because one of the other one of the because we have historically one of the lowest interest rates rates,

just 3.1% so much fun. So, so much fun, actually, that's actually like ventures. And this is that made, this bubble. And we live in the post-pandemic world

that's our worst-case scenario. Hello, thank you, thank you, thank you, game check release the new from future narrators merchandise collection and

do-took-trues to make the idea the idea of the narrator-narrator kren and the link of the description now back to the show did you anticipate this

one or two years two years ago when it was the era over or excessive virtualization and digitalization digitalization,

that it can't be it's the long as well- If we're really Kroa-Fentura, it's a real-shapped $30,000 US dollar That day, why combinator, the first time that was the first time that we did, we see many

so, you know, all these seat investors who also to be valuations at the the way uphawalawak, even even a pre-product, but even idea, that's over-inflated, yeah? It's been, of course, as a corporate BUMN, not even, you know, in the, so, we're not even

in telecom, we're not sure, we're not sure I'm not even though that we're going to get that we're going to so that we're going to be more the other than we're going to be in telecom for what, for several years since 2015, so I thought since we cannot get into

this specific deals that pre-products, that this is a mahal-banked this correction will happen eventually and And if the cycle will be closing to 20 years, it's 2020. And 2019, just a year before the first cycle of Indonesia's startup investment, uh, ecosystem. So we think that 2019,

maybe the other 2020, maybe there's heavy, the impact there, it's not. Trenata it's a bull market, like, And... ...terratern't we'll happen in 2021, not too. But in 2022, this is like, maybe the scenario is more bad than what we think about that we think, because capital crunch is really there.

And, and, the SoftBank, actually, also announced, some, what, 20, 29, reality-check, reality bytes, and... Tiger Global, also announced that they lost tens of billions of in this is the

and the geographies not only in Silicon Valley, but ASEAN. And that's what's quite managetka, kind of, we expect to this, but the reality is more shocking than whatever we expected. We think, to corrects it's okay, right? But if you have, on average, the shrinking of funds more than 50%, then you know that something bad will happen.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I know that's been quite long, like, to be able to be able to be able to be selective, thaning other than we're yeah, yeah, right? So, it's a structure

to be a defense mechanism for Honda BRI Ventures I mean, we're, we're, our mood, we're, our, our, we're, our compliance.

Yeah. Mode, we're, um, what, um, We're based on the bearerventura. We are running the venture Ventura in CEMBORNi, which is everything is licensed and monitored by the OJK. We have risk appetite that I'm not saying conservative,

but moderate, moderate, yeah. We're so, so exposure our only can be in one sector, only be in one sector, and only be in one company, Now, that's like that's like that's like that's that's like that's about traditional venture capital because they are betting on opportunity, than than if at a corporate, we always

we're always the riskonial what, and the risko'noy is, yeah, well this is involving state-owned, so, to be as well as do process that's that's all right, that's a partangu-joubant. We're not even to list check,

if we're getting with founder, then in the next half hour, we'll use check, it's not and the process that will be more and will be able to do diligence that's a long and long as much in three, four-bulan. The only way we can compensate the speed to be able to compete with the other guys. So we're all right now,

we're all right now together, we're doing like that's like that lewate, that's very tiring at all the way, but that's the mechanism that we set at the first corporate ventures under BUMN. We're sader really

that, that by the end of the day, we get audited, by the end of the day, we get audited, we're of course, of course, how is your government like, right? And just in case, if, if, if, if, if, if, gante, what, you know, the company, ganty, ganty up, this, like, misaliener, it's still, like, running as MDI ever was, because the system, the system of place. Yeah.

Because we put the strong compliance and governance in place. So, it's, really. We are really about setting up a foundation, that's a corporate in Indonesia, to be able to do this, with, of course, compliance and governance and governance, that's good. So, if we look,

now, we're doing, yeah, we're not okay, in hindsight, yeah, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're, We're soal-nolly-s-hurt-rits-h-return, we're not high-risk, moderate-return, so if, if, if, if, if, then, if we're going to win three, four-kali, yeah, just, like, out.

So, we know. There's vis-vici, vis-vis, in the out, who said, should, try, I'm going to do withingott, right? Yeah, right? Yeah. There are some of the jank-o-e-korn-e-odd, There's not, but it's not, but there.

Do you sense that Bairie Ventures or MDI that's already-enaders, that's not too moderate, not too high-risk, that can be made-a-cuhed-a-cuhed-a-cuhed-oes-lac-oan, for vis-visi-lain, for they're to change. Not, not so. This is the Wild World West. Because I don't think there's any corporate ventures. We'll learn too.

When I'm from Telcom, we did to make a thesis for MDI that. We learned from Telstra, because that's a teleco-ararhan. And we also from Vertex, which is a corporate ventures from the Temasek, that we learned. We learn about how to form on the deals. Because the most of the one is this is this, are you, you, you know, this is this, fear of missing out, is this is it? Yeah. J'Omo, too.

Jailmo, that's what, what is. Oh, joy of missing out. Oh, joy of missing out, that's, so, this is the middle, this is the middle, this is the middle. So, at the end of fundamental, there are some, there, well, you know,

Let's goy of missing out. There's like, like, like, like, maybe, there's one company that we've got exited it's, liquid. This fintech company that dealing with voucher gaming, in Singapore.

Pernah, 2015, we invest, 2018, 19, we exit. Because we thought that these sectors then they're maturing up, they're them up, they're pomein'emakers, maybe, let's say, so, so, we're happy. Three times just happy, we're exit,

and just recently, they become 2.5 billion dollar company. So, in there, so we think, oh, yeah, it's, so, if, really, actually, what's really is that's happy that's happy, that's not happy, if he's just one-a-half-like.

Yeah, like, in fact that's a house, when you have to take profit. Yeah. That's a 50-50 insights, we're not even know. That's a 50-50 insights that, if it's good, if not, terrible, that's the impact for us all. So, I think the venture capital, in my view,

I've been doing this 10 years in Indonesia. It's not about managing opportunity, but it's more about managing risk. But if you ask me, if we learn, if any, if the industry learning from this, I'm not. That's scary. Yeah, but we're going to, you know,

design for this. Okay, but... Okay, but at some point, we need to runean in industry in the industry, yeah, yeah. But Nourani, is usually, if the money's ever flowing. Yeah, right?

Yeah. Now, this, okay, I'm going to take back back to macro that you've seen-in-you-in-hmm. You're in the cuba that inflation, this, will be in a curingan or more transitory? I think this time around,

I believe it's transitory. This is the same camp. I'm in the kubu yang that's right. I mean you know more than... No, no, no, no, it's important to... ...untink, too, yeah. Compaire notes or what? Because I think, like,

okay, like, Bank Central in the Nogar and Nogarmaju even a bit... ...emble... ...andabble sikap. Yeah, right? The warning sign is been by some

people who are credible from when-kapan, right? But they're too late, to take take up. But if I look, velocity of money, it's already that's down.

Yeah, right, that's the the up the up the 20-and-per- now, it's down 10% in America-Serick. That's, indicators that's the indicator that's the impact

the number of the velocities, it's more than the that's going to be a lot of the that's going to be a certain inflation, it's must not not too as much as what they're gend bar-goborin. And, if I see,

inventory levels in the purusans in the business business, Walmart, Target, and, and other, that's not mutter. Artiness, there's a lot of the same. Yeah.

Yeah, right? Three, yeah, if many of the other men have been moved or already having resuscity, America, like, it's, it's, it's, it's going to be auxp. Quartal 1, it's not yonep.

The quarter one, it's up. Europe, Barat, it's, because of the commodity and, it's all that, yeah, if it's, it's not... Is it 9%, right? If you're not only okay, U.K. is 9%. America, 8,6%. But if you're not able to buy it,

yeah, not going to buy. Yeah. Yeah, I hope that's been fueled by the war, obviously, too. Right? That's, it's a big-perman. What's your take on this? Two-town, a year? About,

about? Inflation? Yes. If the inflation, yes. If you're inflation, I'm going to look for $6-12 $12. Because I'm going to looker that's not mutter again, yeah, not

mucinging, like, they're still in the next to the up the cost. And this, actually, because of Buagnotto. More because of disrupcy passo. Right, that's... ...pacos of commodities, yadot, gandum, jaggung, and other, or passock, from Tyeongg, and,

zero COVID. But if we look at Shanghai and other than, like, it's, it's, it's quite enough encouraging. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So, yeah, I'm not too be thinking, this will be around time.

So, by. Mm-mm. Now, we're. Yeah, I'm not going to be that. But if, if, if, if, if, if, about inflation, to... No. So, like, six,

seven to two months, that's important. Yeah, for our own, because it's just, because of the country of Asia, they're in the need of commodities, to, or not to, to, and it will be able to beaumbrance also not going to be a peasant, and get on the other,

right? I don't know. I follow you on this. I follow you on this. And I think that's going to be it's angoldean, yeah, pasty the bank central will back to mode that before

for them create or make liquidity like that's that will be good for VC, good for capital markets, it's good for what.

Yeah, we'll look, it's, our startup this is right, and if we're there's a bit of course, there's been, there's been,

there's still, yeah. And we also not think that, the pioneer, it's, you know, more than ... That's the day that,

maybe if we're... We're happy, not just not yet, yeah. But if we look, the capital market-and-in-din-o-in-Dunisia is ready for tech stocks, that,

actually that, and I'm and that's very I'm going to ask you like that IEPO, that there's alocation, not for me? And, even, we've never invest, but the capital markets think that

we VC invest in everything, you know, so something that something that's our unicorns for the first time to the capital markets. Something that alien to them. Right. Something that's unexpected, too, for them.

So if the inflation can be, like you said, like you said, that's 12-bulous-bulan, then hopefully the market recovers, it will be a better future for the unicorns to be on the IDX. Right. Amen. Amen. But but that, if we look, Nick, that if we can look,

that ratio of the market, ratio perbanking, to radiance, the ratio of redar, to beaded, three-a-three percent, for Indonesia, yeah. So it's not as india as pretty what we look at in Singapore, not as much as we look at Malaysia,

where in Singapore, Malaysia, the ratio perbanking and the paramedal to the PDABs, each and it's at 100%. So it's, okay, this is it's been a bit more robust, right? Intersects, between, that's in corridor visi to the pastor model. But if the ratio of the market,

it's still a little, there's a bitterbatasance, which structural, right? Now, this liquidity, this, yeah, it's the same-yamonged with what I swar-can, it's the money-breder-notes, or money-brederner, it's still above 50% from PDB.

Singapore, and the negra-negara-Majou, it's 125-250 percent. We're a little bit of a Kethinga. Oh, yeah. Yes. True. I, I, see, not my, but I'm thinking,

if it's about it's about it's better than you're more than you're going to be able to everybody benefits Visi, P.I, the market model, the people who are people who are being able to access to model that be aque, but it's not

ecee, but it's be able to be able to be brilliant, so that the world Visi, the world PII, this isa more robust. There's a clear path to exit. That's right. That's right.

That's what's been that's been done? Yeah. What do you think could be done? Other than just talking about it. I'm not in the capital markets, first of all. That's what we're just just,

that's just, I think the capital markets is the fourth dimension for us, for we all, for that's not that's not so much there's not too much that's that's not too they were down like almost 50% too there's not so much liquidity in NASDAQ right now

we do that um we're looking at this once nancy everything is is you know rising from the ashes all over again We have we'll looker, we'd like, we'd like we'd like, and if we'd learn, you know, the company, you know, the company'd deen, do private, yeah, and then we'd bomb, nanty, in the pastur-model,

that, it's, maybe, there's formulae it, where we'd, maybe, get-in it in there, you know, tech companies, good at there, that, good at IDX, or, or, this, you know, this, in, in, the, in, the, in, in, the, in, in, in the, we see something like this that's that's only happened in the bull market. It's going to take a while. Yeah.

We'll see, too, in the other bnbnb, you know, IPO success. Then after that, in bear market like maybe 20%. Which is nothing, relative to the clients we can we can't see what. And this, I justro,

I justro, I've seen the person who's in the time 2000, even in 2008, that's not resilient just to be able to be able to anti-fragile. If resilient, it's, he's, he's, he justrooed, he justrooed back, or even justrooog back or even if you're not in Newtent law, yeah.

And this is a ujian, if they're going to be able to. they can't even when they're which is a year-year-old 2008, that's in 2000, that's PASC-T-Tal 2002, that, gila, too,

anti-fragile, very good lesson for, for us, this is our first crisis. Most of the investors, my age,

not ever look at this. In their lifetime, their lifetime, actually by, like, doing it right? And I'm, and I'm also with some of some of some of the other, and this is something that we have to, what, uh, what, uh, what, uh, make it's about, but, but, but, but, but, but, if you cannot, like, repeat the mistakes of,

you know, justifying all these valuations in the beginning. Don't, founder this founder is snake oil salesman, but but bring something more meaningful partnership to the table. And maybe we are in a way corporate ventures here, some of the, some of our payment gateway company that we can really see their transactions in our bank, in our holding bank, and the number is justified,

So that's kind of We can't What's like, if we're-gare-tracksacksie? If at the MDI, it's just like that telecom, that we're We're doing with the mostly enterprise startups and B2B startups

that, that's even lewatin the telecom, either as vendors or as partners to work on the projects together So, so we can get compared with maybe

traditional investors just, you know, for the money game. So we're looking at a fundamental at least a little. If there's founder to come to your what do you look at?

Right now? On a typical day, like, not on a bad day. If you're like to get sick, yeah. That's a big day. Yeah, then on a normal day, there's a founder,

what you look like that's the I don't think I said this before in any of the interview, but I think the fallacy in investing is you believe in the founder. Like the founder is like the monolith that will survive for the durations of time, that's even eternal,

but there's that, but it's very. Or you believe in the idea of him or her making an impact. Maybe it's for a while. So I think in this game, I think private equity is the same too, right? Investment game is somewhat, if it's a greater full game. Graterful game, in the art the exit could be justified by, you know, a bigger corporation that's who needs utilizing this company to be integrated. in the end, in the end,

if Ipea-it for the first IPEO, maybe, after the 2013, I'm really, I'm really, I'm really, I'm really for the founders, let's support him for years to come. But actually in this game, you believe in the founder can take you to a certain round of funding,

where we exit in the ten-tenth-tenth, in the time, because many people are doing it right now. Mescobu, it's been taboo-bued to be able to becked. So if we see that invest in startup A, he's not up to the end. Tenged, he's not until the middle, right? If model back,

you'll sell modality, then, slowly, plent, so I think in the end, it's all about, the risk, that this company will not serve, or will not be as it is,

ten years to come. But he or she or this company, will be good for the next three, four years. And you have to make sure that you get out before that year, right? So if you look like that, more than I'm more, I'm more, okay, you have a good idea, right? Can you take this company to Series D?

Yeah. Because Series D, I'm thinking about getting out. Yeah. Stimina has to have. Yeah. Oh, yeah. There's not our portfolio investment, but there's a few,

after he's a series B, he just break down. Because the game is fundraising. The game is how you win the market quickly. And, with the mcien, definitely, your mental state, always, not ever stable, that, actually. Banyl, you know, not? Oh, many, not.

even though that's a full-time job. It's a full-time job. It's a full-time job. Growing your company is a full-time job, right? And not-bis-d-d-d-doin. Not you can't do that much the job. The one, you're doing executions.

Yeah, right? So, not everyone is, like, founder, start-up, I never But if they've got to be, well, this is proven. This is a man who's been from the pangoon to be

the big, okay, I'll go to get to GBCK, yeah, he's like it's just a different set of things. Yeah, that's when he yeah, when he's saying in GBCC, then we're going to dole-a-b-k

Yeah, right. It's like a label. Yeah, it's like the label. It's at there, that's it. That's not. That's the... I think there's a lot of the vision that I see that I'm seeing that fund that is

collapsed, many of the beginning, because they believe in the idea, and in the end they work for the startups. I mean, they work, for the start-ups, but they work on something that they don't understand. Because all these VCs, they are mostly money people, money people, when they're

work in start-up, for a new startup, it's not their cup of tea. Yeah, and they try to read something, how to grow the company. But in the end, it's a hopeless case.

Right. And allocation model, that's better, though, with execuosy. Bede. Bede-b-b-d-a-b-bad. Because for startup, we're talking,

and runway, that one, it's like, eternity for the startups, right? startups right? Because they have to compete with, again, you know, the barrier of entry that's maybe it's easy by the other than with company one other than with money that's more funding more, it's all about, you know, how big your funding is

to win these competitions. Trenica, if we're looking, that's not brand loyal, yeah, can, it's just, incentives a little bit like that's so much that we do to educate this market, get to work out, the other than you know, let me burn

more than these guys, right, let's get, too, already. You've been known as being very candid with founders. Yeah. What would have been the most candid moment? that you're saying that's about what you're like, or that's the same-court-cococ-coc-a-a-a-a-a-pac-a-a-pac-a-a-a-lap.

What's the person that's the most... ...the-like to stop, and start over, that's not easy, though. Yeah, right, to start over, right? Yeah. It's okay. In Silicon Valley, in India, we see that's already in series C just start over, like, like,

this paradigm of time, that's like, I've got invested five-tawn of my life I this cannot stop now. Right? We see Elon must start over many times. You know, we see Elon must start over many times. Like, time is, dimensions of what we perceive in here,

that's not even too, right, but in here, we're in here, we're in 30-on-a-to-to-we, maybe that's also from cultural context that we've got to where we're

to... Santun. Yeah, Santun, that's... ...that's... Paradeema of thinker that think that's a

where I'ma too much, I'm going to be about, I'm 40, I'm, it's the way, it's the way of the same thing. So, so, like, what, yeah, like,

it's like very, very similar to agricultural way of thinking, that, you know, menouai, then, then, then, then, you know, something like that. This is that maybe not working in this industry. And many times, if I say candid that,

to the kind of, not even that's not too, and that's a lot of heart. And that's not going to talk about, so if you're not going to be the business, they'd ask, so how's your business? go, and we know. There's a sense of denial, yeah. Yeah, and then you know creating that bubble,

actually, maybe I caused that bubble in the first place, but you know, I started over many times. Yeah. Part of, you know, being in Beera Avengers is to start over to make up-put-teecan thesis, new inclusion. And that's it's been a bank that's like BRI, that's, that's

focus on the UMKM. And I think that's something that we have to test our own, because we're success or we gagged. Because otherwise we stop thinking and we perish. Yeah. We're talking about about inclusion,

We've got to beaubrulled, between equality, that's how much, the rumoursa? Because if I see, this, this is 500 years the other

in the world two-kally than the country the most two-year-old in the world, the country the most-the-pally

than the most than the most-misskine. Today, the country that's the three-hundred-kally more than the country than the most of the last, this, the duet can't have been now, it's more than it's been increased.

But, why not be in the sameguesing the consensangangangangans? Yeah. You work or you are attached to the largest bank in the country that's the committ for not only inclusion, but to

to gethunging that'sh. And that's how is? The nantoling is, from inclusion to equality. I see that, it's facing into the next generation, now, not only this,

the first the revolution of fintech, right? That we talk about pinjol. We can't be a B&PL, consumer and both productive lending. Productive landing is okay, right? But consumer lending is tough. If we look, we're looking,

for inclusion that has been in the same-jointed of their livelihood, but, not going to upgrade their livelihood. But quite recently, this is also thanks to the global. to the global event in 2020, that we are aware, I think the next generation are aware that they will be poorer than the previous generations, and if we're not only BNPL as it's been

but wealth also bekemean. Unfortunately, in 2002, all those, you know, money that invested, tautunuching is now, but that understanding is, that's standing has been since Vintech to give them back

to give them, for investment, for, you know, not the influencer, influencer, but there are some,

I think, that's, platform that that's there are platform that language in,

you know, you have to invest. You have to be able to understand the charts. You have to be able to understand the charts. You have to be able able to avoid outside influence that's you know you invested in this stock and or that's

that's, and maybe not my generation definitely. But I guess, with the other than other than other, it's also, it's also to be able to literati to goaglia more, you. We can look, we know, we know, the number of crypto investors in Indonesia, that's still-itrablebeys,

that's, that's the traditional retail investors, that's we're aware, and maybe 2022, disparage market, will teach them more, you know, about this. Not much to be bonging, not to be able to be able to

be able to be in a, what, what, a, what, that's a, that's very from the revolution of this. Many of Omnum that's the hype-nexed-notes, and, actually,

that's the end up to make up. That's what, yeah, but in the other than, we are such a, what, heavy on consumerism as a society. It's, what's the consumption? If you're consuming,

if it's okay, but if it's not vitamin, with botan, that's, Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But if I'm nothert say, to be inclusion, to the inclusion to the enderunan-kenshanging, that's, literacy, that's, yeah,

if he's given but he's not there, there's no to beaksanaan in it to use, to make the for things,

like, or mullia, He's more bego, then. And then you're just the samegown. Yeah, right? So, this we're not being we're having to in the inclusion, it's, it's just to bea-tempel with penulhulling,

and everything, so that he also to beaqsana, that's the use, like, the root of a level. Beto. Right. Right.

That's right. That's back to if there's founder to come to your on a normal day. You can be candid as to tell him to quit and start over. Yeah, but what's what is what is the sector now? That's it. If there four people,

four-patsy, this is great, right, right? But the sector is better. Which one would you choose? Unfortunately, venture capital investment, we're talking about not only fundamental. We're talking momentum. Because that's the only way we can get exits.

And not many, actually, our people who are money venture, what is model ventura. One, we can't because we are minority investors. And we can't be too exposed to the risk. So the way we make money is when the value of the company is up.

Meaning that, you know, more funding to come to that. More funding to come to that, of course, with momentum, sector that's going to be. And this is connected, all around the world. When we talk about agricultural tech in Indonesia, we can see the same agri-tech that happened in India, the same agri-tech that happened in Brazil, maybe the US is a different type of sector that's because they have like this AI machine learning that's advanced. But in the emerging countries such as ours, which is related with a panguress, with the

with a lot of the enabler, with the eminent finance, we can see that these particular sectors are getting boost the angin-segar, this in India, the case-a-a-one-the-a-can-a-a-can-a-cina

China, maybe, maybe, before, the same thing that comparables in there. With that, comparable studies, like in Indonesia or in Asia Tengara, those discont factors, if we're

if we're doing it's on the... so it doesn't really about the quality, not only the quality of the founder, not only the how good the fundamental is, but without the momentum then this company will likely be steady growth company, type of company, yeah, can, uh, uh, not can't illang, but we can never harvest from it. When we can never harvest for it, by the end of our fun year,

we have to write off. And that's the case, right? And right off, not that's not, but it's not, but it's not in our, chat on our, maybe, maybe we're trying to

make the other, maybe merger, yeah, can, consolidation with the other, we always try can't for how much, because sometimes you can have a high-growth in the beginning,

and then, you know, plateau, plent-belan. And, you know, it's normal too. And then, you know, how can we, you know, how can we, make something out of it, right? And we ask the founder, do you want to make something out of it?

Or you want to run this business till the day you die? Yeah. Of course, I want to exit. In many cases, in my time I'm in the media, we harvest the most out of maybe any corporate VC in Indonesia. We have at least 11 trade sales, here, and it's the lucid-sacred sales that's In the time.

In five years, in 11 trade sales, two IPOs. Complete exit. Complete exits through M&A. So there's a huge, I'm not saying, what's the name, huge conglomerate company in South Africa, like to find out of fintech in ASEAN. So we have that particular company in Singapore.

So we sell to this guy, right? Just to, kind of just ticket to play. Because people who are people out of this, look at ASEAN, it's, can't market that's very new, not even. ASEAN, not everything,

and the Thai market, Thai market is different. Vietnam market is entirely different things. We're talking, Malaysia is different thing, Philippines, what other. So it's very quite promising, really, for trade exit, like that, but not as sexy IPO, buttunctu, right?

So, we, we, um, we, um, kind of, we, kind of, we're, for that. So maybe we can somewhat consolidate this into a bigger company, or we can do you sell to the company, and still make money.

Okay, you mentioned ASEAN. If we look at ASEAN, this I'm going to banning with China. In 25 years, the economy of ASEAN, it's up to about three-lety-lap. China, 10-laped. in the period of the same. And we've got to the tech scene in China.

It's gila, yeah, right, in the period. And in context, deep tech. It's been said, tech in the same, it's deep. If you're saying, it's still, it's still, it's a bit more. Deep tech's. Prospect.

There are some of the other, the question is prospect deep tech to be able to be able to beware of aSEAN that's how big to be able to be able to be able to be two prospect digitalization in aSEAN this to be able to beurcation And so that's uproquered, it's more big up,

more than if you can't. Yeah, if you can, don't underperform, like, 25 years. Relative with what we've seen in Hong Kong, yeah. Three-cali-lipat, but China, in 25 years,

but China, in 25 years, 10-cali-lipat, GDP's. It's a massive difference. Yeah. Yeah. For the future generations, if we can, yeah, we can, yeah,

we're going to be able to be. This is to 2005, yeah, if you can't take it's not three-letylipat. If you can't, this can't with the power of digitalization. Talk about deep tech, talk about, how about,

digitalization, this is can be able to be to propang to naikin more than what we've sacked 25 years. 2045, we'll look at the completion of the fourth, industrial revolutions. Yeah.

We talk machine learning, learning we've been learning, we've got a. We've got a.R. too, metaverse, and yelan, and all of the... We have to understand that we don't have the, what, the, what, is it like, enough talent, like, in Indonesia. And I'm, and I'm seeing,

really, um, what, uh, challenges that's that's that's been, which, what, to C-D, where they don't have enough talent to fill in the scalability of the technology itself. So we see the better than India, with China, with America, America, the people in the U.S. It's also not heavy on engineering.

But they have an open policy for people from all around the world to work there. migrazi. Yeah. The country of immigrants, they're in America. Then Ketelot Silicon Valley was built not by, not only by Americans. Silicon Valley is very diverse. Actually, there's more Asian populations in Silicon Valley than the Asian immigrants populations than the American, the Native one.

A lot of Indians. Indians, Chinese, Russians. And I think we're we're like, we're dependent really dependent in the digital economy. Of course, we need something like like the permerdaiian manusia

in the bidang, in deep tech, we're, maybe only superficial, really superficial, low tech, but, chemas the tech,

you know, maybe AI's just just maybe, in the form of chatbots and what's not. But I see that, but, but with it's going to be, with the web 3, we see that, we're going to be enthusiastic in Genesee. My son is 16, right? And he, he's,

so, you know, to talk about, you know, the next evolution of the web. the utilization of blockchain which enable the ledger will make the broken system. For the 11, I'm going to be like this. 16, now, like 20-a-. If we're 20-1, like 16. So I said, I said, I said to say to him, like, oh, wow, you have a deep thinking on this year.

and he's about about policies the next cryptocurrencies as much as much more but that will be the future of our next generation to do transactions. And now if we can look, I think the utilizations of tokens have started to be gaming, and

GameFi, we talk, that's... and that's something that's I'm in particular, I'm going to be certain coins, or certain tokens, it will be another tokens that replace it, better tokens that will, so I think we as a society, we as a society, we always lompat, right? Maybe we will skip this part, the deep tech

as an AI and machine learning, let's I don't know, let the Americans do it, because they have already the basic ingredients to catapultists. Maybe we skip to meta, perhaps next. Maybe we're next to the utilization of blockchain technology, I'm not really, I'm not really pessimistic, you know that Indonesia has been good to me for the past 10 years, you know, to be able to thrive in this career, I'm being, I mean, venture capital is not some career that you have 10 years ago

And if we're just about the next 10 years either, so we have a handful of the next generations that's more sensitive to this technology usage and the other and other than the next generations will have less screen time than us. I hope so. I thought it's already, we're going to be, We're just that's more than this, right? How long, I'm looking at a day?

Oh, if I work through the phone. Yeah, nine hours. Yeah, nine hours, I used mostly like two, in my working groups, like, but in social media, it's a little, maybe, but it's a little. I'm one and two and a two and a half a half a half a half a time. I'm a bit more.

But you do on your laptop, no? I don't have a laptop. Oh, wow. I haven't had it for, oops, I shouldn't be saying this. But I've got to be doing this. Oh, wow. You are an Renaissance man. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So I'm going to read a book, rather than to see a soft man. Right. And then, if I make PowerPoint, I'd probably, I'll take the ballpennet or pencil in a cartas,

then I'd give him, okay, he'll make. Yeah. You still need to like decks. You don't have to, right? If you're going to give webinar or what, can't get some presentation. But yeah, yeah, I try to minimize my time.

That's good. Because it's a bit, I don't know, if you're just, if you're looking, too long, that's just, that's been... Oh, yeah, that's poisoned, man. That's... That's...

But, but implicit in the Pernatant and the that's everything. Yeah, right? We're about deep tech. We're talking about people about digitalization

to we can't more much than what we've seen what we look at 25 years before this partion my question

is, is, we have to look on talent sourcing? I believe so. I believe so. I believe that's enough for us

from BINUS, Ui, UGM, ITS, the Mali, UGM, and other than other. I think it's, it's, you know, it's both policies, right? Of course, we have to upgrade the quality of the training or the session or whatnot. But on the other hand, if we look at startup, we can look at startup, Well, we have a few unicorns now in Indonesia. So we have a, what is the talent movement from the

from their, because why, because start-up is, the startup is the team A and B, or team A and C is a different team, because startup is not a yayasan, right? They don't have time to train. So, so they're compensated with ESOP. And I know some of the guys, the guys,

the founding team of that, they ended up with a lot of money, right? After they were replaced, or they were, they were, they're gantycan, and they are aware that their time in there, also, not so long as long as it, series A to series C, because it's con-cassed-bagnation-P, maybe, maybe, may still be done this founding team of a startup, they're not a scaling team of this same startup, right?

they have to another like, like, like, like, like they're like they're like they're like they're like they're like they're like, because these guys specialize in the founding of the technology or the business right, this model and and team C team D, you know, series C series C series D. These guys were specialized in scaling, you know, if we're, uh, uh, uh, because when they reach that scale, you know, uh, because when they reach that scale, that they're they're like in corporations, with maybe not the same agility,

but there's some portion of agility there's some portion of agility, but, yeah, if there policy just just that's been we can catch up with the rest of the world if we still has a closed door loop on talents,

I know it's not, what is it's not, what is it's not it's not enough to catch up. And playing catch up is really hard, right? Various of the world. Singapore just not, not, there's not. So, he has very open. And that's also hard to come down to come down to there. I've gottened people from Indonesia, Malaysia,

China, India, Bangladesh and other, that also, that's also also is also about how much like that. I'm seeing that's actually we're looking at Bally, we're looking at a lot of people, foreign people, that's a very welcome.

Which is, I think that's very welcoming. To work for... That's a breath of fresh air. Yeah, six months. Work of a year, granted visa. And most of these guys, They're from Russia, there's from Ukraine, you know,

they're there, but they're working on the blockchain projects. The blockchain projects that, what, what, maybe, is implementations not only in Indonesia, but globally, right? So that's something that's something that I see that's what I've seen with it, I'maed in Cangu, servers, like that's from Japan, from Japan, from here in the AI,

in Cangu. Yeah. I mean, that's a breath of fresher. Because we also have to be able, that we still have, there's a gap, a good, and that it's to be issued, by anyone,

or from anyone, or from from, that I think, I'm not that's about that's not a cuterbugaan, we're not for ketchup, it's hard for we thrive, it's hard for usxas,

it's for ushered, more than than other, yeah, right, Niko, for 2045 from C. I think, yeah, in the time of 90s, I, too, I've had in the

Dunea Visi, like, but, that's the work-and-mortar, not digitalization. But if you're not too india, but if you're better, it's more beautiful, yeah, can't vis-bis-bis-a-c because

the money, and there's narrations also many that can't be tempel, duet. Maybe de-de-deked-ed-can, maybe exciting, but more... ...notes not even... Maybe I'm going to pin down to here, Now, nowasiness, too, more than path to profitability.

Yeah, if, if you were, yeah, you know, you can't do you, but if you're not, but if you, if you're not there, prospect to get to get to un-unthungungent, bohawat, yeah, right?

Now, that, ... ...and, if, if, I'm not sure, structural, and will forceier the ecosystem for more vigilant. Is that's quickly as quickly as you expect,

or desire, or don't? We see some of the guys who's IPO, yeah, come-a-frey. Finally, they post closer path to profitability. That's maybe 5-tawn, now, it's 1st-a-toddine. Tadiness 10-tall, 2-tawn, so that's something that very promising to a lot of us

to a lot of us in the private investment, like VC, or private equity even, right? So, so, so we'll get the market, you go expect them to be more accountable. And this is not happening only in Indonesia, happening everywhere around the world too, right? Nasdaq too. We've got listed in Nasdaq, you know, when are you going to reach profits? Right? Um,

in the kitapen, we're, of course, not ask you're going to reach profit, right? But we count on those metrics that matter, misal. Yeah, right? Because of the same way we're going to get up the g-dra,

we're going to be sure we do. Yeah, right? So, it's a lot of the metrics that's changed in my business. From the MAU, that's sexy, that, MAU. Now, MAU, maybe, not relevant, like, in some sectors, like like that's like that's kind of did, like that's going to be, are we going to see any profit soon?

Or at least positive EBITDA soon. Right. That's important. Because market-notic-tad-tad-taddy, we talked about all these startups that used in backdoor, or close-door, or private place, I'm not in the capital markets, that's like that's a lot, what's what's what?

It's shocking, because audience is better, if you're going, at least not my type of VC, but me as a VC, misalely, look great growth that spectacular, wow, wow, you know,

don't make profit, let's just grow as much as you can now, but when they're they're not this, this, this, this, I've got to say, dimension the fourth, now, capital markets, that's a line. But okay, but fast forward, pull-a-toward, 10-town to the time,

I always talk about the, the cuckoo-buneruner, because of the money will be more than class asset that can be investations investations. Cost of money is only going to come down.

Yeah, right? So if I'm going to be money, the investment that's more than is equity story, not fixed income story, yeah, okay, like, to buy a look-listen, or a mobile, but that's finite,

can, it's very bad-battas-battas-bend. So, yeah, equity story, it's like for 10-a-town-to-the-depan to be more more interesting, from fixed income. And that just too,

the bigot even for VC, with P.E., with capital markets, be able to be able to make up. Or, even, can, you don't agree with, or agree with? I completely agree with what you said today. To me, it's the thing, time to restart the cycle.

It's time to invest in equity now. If we're still at the bottom, bottom is still, even crypto market, if I ask my friend, because I like crypto investment a lot, I'm, I, again, maybe I romanticize on the ID. Congratulations or condolences, maus, ma'uoleses, But I'm long-term, but it's a long-term, but it's an idea of a romanticizing the new currency,

the new economy, to me, especially when the NFT that was still rame back, that's really, right? I'm, romanticization, oh, okay, so this is like me in a metaverse version, right? Right. So, you know, you know, my personal money, what I'm like, oh, it's really, it's really, but again, um, if we're talking equity, it's still, this, this, this, this, is... Nassizant.

Yeah, it's... ...especially, you know, we're looking, um, we know, some of these guys who who are in unicorns, now, after, you know, post-IPO, can they've, fasted years, is all-say. So you... So we will hear a lot of mafia, right? This P-mafia, the G-mafi mafia, this, this mafia, this is this kind of, yeah.

So there will be a lot of guys who have experience already, experience building companies, running companies, and not to repeat the mistakes of their employers. And I've been hearing about this a lot too. Not in BIR Avengers only, you know, maybe I'm old enough now,

for people know who's what, like, yeah, right? Like, Ah, Mas Nico, you know, I used to work in Geh, you know, and I now building, you know, this exciting blockchain metaverse company. You're a valuation, Cengli, boss.

So, you know, that's a different mindset already. Yeah, Yeah, it's a different mindset already. Yeah, it's, oh, valuations it's, like a little like a little, like that. And my reply to him or her was that, you know, I'm really interested in the world. That's very helpful.

It cuts out the bullshit. It cuts out the waste. Yeah, of time. We'll hear a lot about these guys. Then, you know, these figures, you know, the next, you know, the next, you know, the next, you know, the next, you know, of Indonesia. That's good. That's good. That's good.

If you know, if you're like, if you're like to look, it's the same productivity, it's been able to take-again-through-all-a-all-a-a-i-a-i-i-a-i-i-a-i-a-cout it's more okay, because equity story. Now, this, if, sorry, back to macro, If we look, productivity in Indonesia, it's relative to be rather than Singapore.

But if you're about Cambodia, we're more than than Cambodia, we're more than than $24,000 per-one, productivity. Singapore is $170,000 per one per day, $170,000. So we've got our work cut out. We have a lot of homework. Yeah, right? But if we take take a lot of nopang,

24,000 to make, to 100,000, 170,000. Gila, equity story from anything this is gila. Yeah, right? So, sky is a limit. Percaya with the young, that's just a good. Yeah. Equity our equity, equity, muda.

Yeah. That's it. And then, Nico. Pesan what other, for the other than what people who are, okay, or what's what what's going to be what's going to be in the future and what will be in the future? I'm going to re-quote you on this too.

That... ...uang will be a lot of capital in. And if we'll be a lot of capital in, If we actually the crunch in the in the crunch, in Indonesia, it's not the later stage, yeah. But at early stage, not. The early stage,

it's more, like, the time bull market in Indonesia, so. So, so many people who want to batting to these younger founders, younger ideas,

And then that's like that's if you're currently working, if you're fasted years is over, just start something. Start over. Get your team, get your band, together, make something,

and many people who are, and many people who are now. Now we don't have, we not only, not only VCs, We have a lot of angels right now. Smart angels, smart angels that willing to bet on you. That's really, I'm just going to end it right there.

That's that money is still abandoned in the early stage of funding. Take the risk. Take the risk. Moderate. And time is not linear, right? Right, but too. It's a good again. Can you, okay.

Great advice. Thank you, Nico. Who, can't be able to be here. Wow. This is a very good experience. Okay. That's what we're realiawan. Come on with Nico.

Tumann, that's Nikko Ujaya, the Pimpinan of B.R.I Ventures. Thank you. This is Endgame.