Endgame with Gita Wirjawan - Novalia Pishesha: Harapan Basmi Malaria dari Peneliti Indonesia

Episode Date: November 30, 2022

Junior Fellow Harvard University asal Indonesia pertama—Novalia Pishesha—membahas proses panjang di balik dua temuan rekayasa sel darah merah yang dipatenkannya, bagaimana Ia bisa terlibat dalam riset milik tokoh pencetak peraih Nobel, serta bagaimana perempuan dapat lebih berperan dalam bidang MIPA, teknik, dan teknologi. Novalia Pishesha adalah peneliti di balik kandidat vaksin COVID-19 yang saat ini juga menjabat sebagai Co-founder dan CEO Cerberus Therapeutics, perusahaan yang bergerak dalam rekayasa sistem imun manusia. Novalia juga merupakan Postdoctoral Fellow dari Bhatia Lab, MIT Koch Institute for Integrative Cancer Research yang masuk ke dalam daftar 35 inovator Asia Pasifik di bawah 35 tahun menurut MIT Technology Review. #Endgame #GitaWirjawan #NovaliaPishesha ------------------- Isi survey Endgame dan menangkan merchandise Endgame: https://endgame.id/survey Pre-Order merchandise resmi Endgame: https://wa.me/628119182045 Wujudkan mimpi menjadi pemimpin visioner berikutnya. Hubungi SGPP Indonesia di: admissions.sgpp.ac.id  [e-mail] https://wa.me/628111522504 Playlist episode "Endgame" lainnya: https://endgame.id/season2 https://endgame.id/season1 https://endgame.id/thetake Kunjungi dan subscribe: @SGPP Indonesia @Visinema Pictures

It's more of stuble Sooturisation, like, curriculum, which is more more than technology, because, I think, the number of S-3 in Indonesia is a more more and maybe this is because

there's not there there, there, there's a – I think we use this so many times, but it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, like,

because there, why don't know what's there? But I think, I think, I think, I think, what's the people that can be able to work as a person who's on the topic of STEM, and you can't what's just, but it's like, it,

but it's still, still, still, and, even for process the S-3 in America States, like what, if, if,

if, if, that's also, many people still not know. If you're stemmed in America, if you're from just, you're just, if you're just, school's just, school's gratis, then, it's given, yeah,

stipend not, not many, but it's just enough, but it's just, like, I think, like, many who don't know, too, that's the end game. Hello, Hello, people, today we're

in Nava Lia Pissessa, a friend we're from Malang, a young woman who's great and junior fellow at Harvard University. Nova, thank you very. Yeah. I'm going to get to.

Yeah. I'm going to hear the story of you. You know, from a little in Malang. And then, could be the end-to-un-un-in-nug-nug-natured, in Cambridge, Massachusetts,

as a little bit of it. Wow. That's long. But yeah, so much of mylan. So, yeah, so much of the Malang, in Santo Yusup Malang, so that's Mawang in Mala, I guess, a lot of guess, many, I think the other,

the name of the same again, Wain, that's Wai, Wai, Malang. And, yeah, from the little, we can see, we can see here, in the in the same in Indonesia, in the same in the other

in the other than in fact that not just not just, vaccine also jarang, apache if I'm like if I'm noto-immune like,

like, lipos, or tapuan diabetes or multiple sclerosis to, not there's nobate in Indonesia, whileupun,

if in the world yeah, there. So, from the little, it's really, that's really in Indonesia.

and also, from the little, I like, book biologi, I, and I've got to seepacuble, and mathematics. So, science is something that I like,

oh, the perjana what, what is, what can be able to be work, and I'm going to be doctor, because, that's the one that's that can bea bribatin people. But,

like I think, I think, I think, biotechnologist, maybe more have been, because, can, because, can, even, two professions this focus on reset, and research for the research for new, or or, like, that, this, this, this, this, this, I was in 2000, I was, I'm in 2007,

yeah, 2007-on, so, that, when I was, I'm in Indonesia no major in bioengineering because biomegiening to compared to technique chema or technique mechanic is a more more than in America

even more than many degree like that so. So, the look at the other America's the United States is where the university has pooled up the most so. So, so

Papa mama I, when I was from, I was from, I'm from, you know, like, so much more than I'm going to go or school school-tingingingy, kind, yeah, yeah, that's cultural aspect. Then, when I was, I had a person Paman, my man's my name in San Francisco. So, it's the only place,

where the only place, where the person I say, yeah, just can be able to be there just to-a-do-a-do-a-you- So, yeah, so, yeah, so, yeah, so, yeah, so, yeah, so, yeah, because, I'm from small I'm from English, but it's too, not too much,

SAT, so like test test that's used to to go to university in America just, I'm not know. School which I'm

not know. So, yeah, I think, I'm back and backer, and the price again can be better

if four-year university with community with community with community college. So, so,

I'd rather just, yeah, community college just, then if, more, more,

more, and, if if I'm just, I'm still if I'm able to the level that's to transfer to universe that good, yeah,

I'd do you know, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, the City College of San Francisco, uh, then,

transfer, transfer to, and then, I was very luck, uh, uh, um, I was very luck, uh,

because, I can't, I can't be able to so, yeah, yeah, I'm just, and,

yeah, to payay the work and also umpahuechle. Then I transfer to University of California at Berkeley because, I'm actually, I'm sure

get-tremed at the University of California at L.A. and also San Diego. But more than it's just just, because Berkeley gave, um, I'mbery say, um, baysespae. Wow.

So, yeah, if I'm saying, I'm really, I'm sure, that's up to to LA or because the wayanaeo or Berkeley, because the payagia's much can't be able to sagup,

so, yeah, but I'm fortunate, like, like, when I was able to email and they said, oh, you're up to full scholarship, so, yeah,

so, yeah, so, yeah, so, so, so, I, while I was, to go to San Diego, because,

if, officially, ranking-in-in- for bio-engineering, but, but, Yeah, it's better than that's not... So, from the other than that you have to beaure.

Yeah, so, so that's the story of it. So, so it's about to Berkeley. Then, at Berkeley, I'm... I'm still amble bioengineering... So, the technique biology, so biomeering. ...mullay, merassicant. Because, can, can, I'm sure, because I'm bachiscusa-presu. So, so...

...wactuble that I can use to reset, It's for volunteer, leadership, leadership, and so much. So, yeah, I had a really good time there. Then, I was back to think, make what do you? If I was done, I'm going to do. It's all right. After S-HATUner's all right.

Then I'd do with professor my at Berkeley. Hew, this, academic advisor, I, so, so, class is okay, this is able to lose. on time, like, then he'll be like, he's going to do you want to do you, this name is,

Professor Steve Connolly. They said, well, after you, want to do you, see what, like, so, like, so, like,

like, so, like, you're doing very well, create, you're doing very well, create, you're good, like, cum laude, and all kinds,

and then, your reset, is good, reset just, you've got to get money, like, I've got,

some, some, other than, other than, and I, and I, I think that's the the same, I'm at the same thing,

I'm going to bea-syssao, because I'm just up mebiage it to beailles'i-hardt. So, you know, like old habit die-hard. So, like, I've been able to bea-suit-pennu, still apply to bea-sciua-bi-a-sissue and the other, sopaya-scibility

my experience and keep keep training my writing and everything else. So, yeah, so I'm going, oh, yeah, you look really good on the paper, you know, like your CV is very good. And then, just like, apply S-3 just. Because they said, they're saying, I know, at Berkeley,

Berkeley, you know, admission committee-in-it-in-meat. So, I'm going to guarantee, if you're going to, because I said, I don't want to apply S-3. Because if, if, you know, can, I reset,

just, did-indinging can't with the kids that, from from the berkeley, the research I'm maybe from the time more than the time than they're more

four years. So I'm doing that like imposter syndrome also, so like maybe not not much, yeah, so I'm like I say,

and when the and when to go to apply for the for Pendaer under S-3 just, have to payer

yeah, right, have to get, for $100 $100, that, for one application.

So I said, like, that's mahal, yeah. You, you know, you're going to have to pay her. And then, no, pa. Bail it just, but I'm going to be sure. You're going to apply to program. But, yeah, you know, I get into Berkeley and a lot of different places. One of the first of the MIT. Then what I'm going to...

Why? Pindahue to MIT? So, so I've... Yeah. So, when I was... Steve Connell, like, yeah, I'm... Yeah, I'm going to be able to... He said, how much, you've got to come here.

So, go to the other than, you know, to work that he, he, belio, this, too, the S-3-3-nearer-university. So, he said, oh, yeah, another area that's good to learn, can, to make-embang-your-horizon, it's like,

go, like, per-de-a-re-lary-lain, you know, like, not just only location and geography, but, can, can, people who come to meet in here, isa better than in the part yeah, so that's about in the Eastco

and Westco, so he's up pretty important. So, he's aggap quite important, and then, when I was, actually, Professor Harvey Lodish, who was a, one of one who's interview me.

But then, then, but when you, but you know, that's... But, you know, that Boston, is Silicon Valley new biotech? I think at that time,

not really. I think, I think, it's that they're not to think, this fact that, I was 2012. It's like, yeah, it's like, it's already, right. There's, like, some, like,

people, like, people who are, that's more, that's, but the booming, and biotech, only in the past 10-year, in the past 10-year,

so, so, so, because, yeah, this one one beacon of biotech, because there's universities, there's there's there's many,

room-sacit, room-sacit that good, also also people, to do biotech research. You know, just if the name Silicon Valley of biotech, I think it's just 10-tawn back on. So I think it was very good as well.

And I think I didn't really realize that. Cuman, like Harvey was, who ended up becoming my PhD advisors, right? So he was one of one of my He said, he said, oh, you know, I don't need to ask anything much, you seem cool Gini, de say, kirk, k, yeah, okay, okay, okay, k'k.

I've been I'm going to getterima at MIT I'm not getting to meet at MIT back that's get rid of Stanford get rid of Berkeley

then in the this this one that's like oh that's that's

that's that's if you're not perk because don't want to stay, have to learn

to place place if you if stiforg if I'm there's I'm not anything I'm

about what I'm just there's like there's there's like So, okay. And then, then, okay, good to know. And then I'm not,

there's not, restaurant Indonesia at this? Harvey's about. Oh, boyang, yeah? Trenata, not there's been, but he said, she said, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, I'm like, yeah, well, okay,

sounds good, I'm going, so, yeah, then I decided. But, yeah, I decided. But, yeah, Harvey, this, can, have mentored two Pemenang Nobel, and the friends, Yeah, yeah, it must have been goosebumps.

Yeah, right? Actually, I didn't know who he was. Actually, I didn't know who he was. Okay, I'll tell him more actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't know who we was, actually. Okay. So, yeah, yeah.

Biasur star struck. Yeah, I think, like, kind of, maybe that's good. Cray. So I wasn't as nervous. There's a bikeing. If you can't get there. If you can't, but he has been good. So then that's how I decided to come, because I really like him.

Then, when, at this time, this is also, also, also, just before new project, Seldarra Mara, that's the engineer this. Then, so I, so I took project that for PhD thesis. I'm because I'm comingasicam what I'm doing work in Harvest Lab with more immunology

so I've got co-advisor Professor Hide the Blue, name so yeah, I'm going to S-3 with him two this. Professor Hedipu also very, very well-known immunologists, like many many people are

training he in India who's in in Blanda, because he's Dutch. So, yeah, their combination of mentorship, I think, really shape who I am as a scientist. And my view about how to approach science, how to develop a scientific question, and how to answer it. And at the same time, I think once again, I'm really lucky that our personality is just, I'm just the same, I'm trying, like,

I'm making. And project's just done with good. to the degree that I file two patent then the patent that is licensed by company that my professors two-dway-to-me, I'm founders of, and it's publicly traded at the moment. So that was like my first

and I served as a consultant for the company in the early days. So, so it's like a first look that projects that I do in the lab truly can be translated and became a company. So I think that's like a first point of entry for me, that's how they can progress that way. Tell it, two patent, this is what, the point is.

I mean, I'm not only biologics. This is, but, maybe. This is it. This is it technique to modification sal-dara-mera. And how much made cell darra-mere-in in a number of large and quality that good. So, that's two patents that, that's. And, also, I'm just mentor my mentor and project

the project is a lot, so patent, like I'm just, Like I said, old, old habit die hard. Although I've got to apply still apply even though. While professor's I can buyer in me, but yeah, old habit die hard. So I keep writing and keep applying for fellowship, got a lot of different ones. So yeah, it's keep building your capacity,

not only just your CV, but actually your skill set as well. And I think one but not least, that really is really lucky that like, because I at the MIT, a lot of really, really good students who became my, trainees, my mentees, really, really, and, you know, two of them you know very well, Gary and Valentino. And several other Indonesians, like, actually at some point, I think all Indonesian students in all the students, the same people, the students, do they make a team.

So, like, we make a team. Sure, take an exclusive. Yeah, exclusive. Like, if I'm going to go to biology or bio-related field. So it was fun. And then I finish my S-tiga. and then, Kappa-hari also maybe become a postdoc so on the path for academia.

But then Professor Hidepru said, you know, you did well. I wasn't planning to do like something fancy. And he said like, you did well. I will nominate you for this Harvard Junior Fellowship. He said, I got nominated before by my PhD advisor in the 70. But he said, but he said, yeah, comea, that's got to.

So, yeah, we're trying to get, yeah. So keep going. There's, there are people first Indonesian. Maybe not. I think the first Indonesian, if people, if they're from. If there are people, there's... If there are...

If there... I think... I forgot his name. He's... That's... prestigious, really. Yeah. There is the one who was doing economics.

is the cuirangyu. I forgot his name. I think Li Sheng Wu, I think that's his name. I forgot, like, but economic, the other than the other than Lyin Young. Lishin Young. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So, you're the other from Asia Tengara? Wadduh, I don't know. Blame check. Okay. But this is not. Yeah.

It's. It's. Four time. Four time. So, you're You know, you're not quite many lot of technology,

can. Cobot di, di, de, de-application is how, and then, technology is,

like, how much? Yeah. So, so, I'm also, I'm manipulation

immune system, and again, protein that's small so, nanobody. So,

it's not nanoparticle, but nanobody. And nanobody this, because like antibody, but they're more than they're more than

small, they can't be manipulasi with more than be able to bacteria, so it's moreh too, but it can be able to keeper, and then by wherever with temperature that's high, or not a problem. So, so it's very flexible.

So, it's why I want to use nanobody, then, for application this is that's a newbosidiccany. One is to be a newboughty for a vaccine, for the peniacet, because when I was developed as well, I'm going to work with malaria.

The malaria fivacin, like in Indonesia. But, but then, COVID happened. So, yeah, pivot to COVID. Yeah, so for vaccine for COVID, that's been a result, then. Yeah, in ticus. In-fifo, in-fo, yeah, but now, COVID-old, so maybe we can pivot and applications to peniacist again.

Evolution. Yep, but that's the problem. Right. Then, the other than the other than we, that we're working on is the un-immun. So, I'm going to antibody-based technology this for treatment for auto-immune diseases. So that I think, like I'm like lupus, and I think it is kind of great,

because, you know, when I was a kid, this is what, this is the peniacquit that I'm going to, at least, beckon towards. And, yeah, I think it's shaping up, you know. So that's good. And then, then, today, when, today, after Harvard fellow,

I was a project this. then about two years ago, project this, yeah, I guess I'd be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to come back, then, around the last,

I said with Professor my Harvi and Hedah, right, my mentor, you know, Professor my name, I said, I said to them, I think the project this, the result is good, like we can't spin out another company out of this.

So we filed a pattern. It's still in progress right now. And there's another pattern on a slightly different aspect of things that also we are filing. So there are two patterns also. And now, with my company and I, with help professor of my professor, Dr. Havilludes and Professor Hideplu,

we've co-founded this suburbics that I am currently the acting CEO. And trying to build this technology forward. to the clinic and then hopefully benefit people in the world. I think the advantage of our technology is like, because I said nanobody is too small, moreh and gampang, it's,

so, muddhawn, this treatment and vaccine that we can really, really, brought to Indonesia. This, this, in the,

if, if therein'n't, the, per-daian nanobody, the perjian you with protein, this, this, this is bigotty. So, this is more than it's more than

evolutions of the efficacy, effectivitance, pen that's pencithes, can, to be able to come to the point. So, and they can be, with pettowal about virus or about the human-inomunology,

I think many combinations like technique immunology that's the human-immunology will be better. Kiyakina you're going to be how? To this is, to this can't

evolve from COVID-19 or even the disease-pennomun to the end upturn to be. This can be, what, yeah? The hope is the humongas' The hope, yeah?

But we only can tell by doing the experiments. And now we've got to do tucous experiment in the I think... Tikus is red, right? I think that's what... In mice is munchit. ...meet.

Then, the story's not we'll be ushacko into to non-human primate, because, can test it has beener, structured. And hopefully, in a few years or in two, hopefully, commercialization. And yeah, commercialization.

Wow. That's the hope. This is life-changing, though. Yeah, right. Hopefully. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, you've already had two patent.

And then, now, what are working progress? Two. Two. Two again. Bluarsia. Then, is, is, upka, are you going to be in dimension this,

nanobody? Or, you've got to prospect other. There's prospect other. There's prospect of

I mean, like, I think if you're after many years, you should be able to, like, you know,

see an opportunity and apply different technique, apply different knowledge to, like, to assess, like, how to address certain problem.

So, it just that is so happened that this is what is fitting for this certain application that we We want to solve at any given time.

But, of course, there are other technology that will be developed, that we will develop, that we will keep going forward with. And for applications, it's not like one pill cure the mall. So it depends on the applications that we envision. We're going to make sure, yeah, two-and-three-tawn the last year, how many people get-pleased,

because COVID-19. And one of the kindlalang is to transportas with temperature with the same, that's the way that's it's more than the agility. Efficiencies is a lot more than this. This, this, try, de, dibunkus in context

how, temuan you can't, can't help, many people, people, not only in Indonesia, but in the negara, negamang, or the country of miskin. What is the most of, what is the most, as a low-hanging fruit.

Yeah. So I think vaccine that I make, or treatment for autoimmune disease, misconduct that's being it's being transported with temperature or high, even, and it's made

as a bububal, so it's liable. So, so, it's just got pangue. It's just about more than, I mean, then, to inject. Then, then, so, so, So, I think,

many people, many of the people that can be taken with vaccine, but, can, the many of the developing country, not can be developed in here. Because, it's not their problem.

So. So, I truly hope, like, technology like this, can be brought to the other and the country like that, so,

we can use it to infacts, disease, certain, in the country to be able, if I said, There's like, like, like, there's not many who's got many who's

because, can, not have beeniacet. Niamugnaut. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah. But it's, it's a bigotivis for malaria, yeah, yeah, because it's prevalent so. Yeah, so one of the project that I proposed,

actually, I just got L'Oreal for Women in Science. Comrades, though. Yeah, in Indonesia, it's proposal on utilizing aspect of this technology for malaria application. Okay, this, we're pivot, the topicing. I, I'm looking at you, as a manifestation

from a success in a woman. Yeah, right? In the science, this, can, if we're looking at talko, talk of science, not many,

like, who are going Ada Laugh-Lays, Merikuri, and, and, what,

what, what, what, what, to be kind of I think cultural I mean,

even when I mean even back to say even when I'm sorry people even never pinter, not there's never, never,

you're married Yeah I mean I'm sure or like oh you know it's better for

you know as a woman sometimes do you can't be able be like, like, like, like, like, that's, that's not how

science works, right? Like, science is like, you need to have your own opinion, you have to, like, speak up, you have your idea, you need to, like, be brave and, like, go to uncharged the territory. So,

explore, you know, so, like, I think it's a, it's a big thing, is a cultural thing. So, like, so, why can't do you know, why can't isa-as-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-truisan-a-a-turusan-a-a-a-truusan, so-n't-n-n-n-n-n-n-dapur-dh-a-dusk.

I mean, not wrong. I love cooking. Don't you mean, wrong. And, like, I think the scientific training helps a lot in the kitchen, to be fair. Like, how to do, like, you know, I can do A-Indunishan disease in, like, one hour. Pache. Yeah. To some degree, you know, like how you plan your experiments in the day, apply in the kitchen or at home.

So, yeah, so, yeah, so yeah, so yeah, I think that's one thing. I think cultural, there is a really different expectation. So, yeah. So, I think, back on definition of success in women and men are very different. Like, economically successful for women is, I don't know, I think it's useful. And, you know, to some degree, there are jobs, there are in science, there are very interesting. is that, if I'm just as far as far ashaven,

yeah, yeah, the country that's just like S-1, you know, misalding, the number of versus lucky-lake-like, in science, it's still like about 50-50. You know, it's not bad nowadays. But, like, to S-2, to S-3, I think there are, like, a huge drop.

And not just that's just that's-3, maybe now, it's kind of okay, but like, like, leadership, you know, like, who's who's who's who is, it's a cultural thing like the world. in the world in the world

in the world even in there's also a lot of, even in in the world there's also prejudice or bias like oh yeah women like to be fair it's not, it's biology right as well like the fact that when you are pregnant it's a huge toll on your body

and I think that it is like it doesn't definitely affect your productivity and I think that And then like, uh, uh, uh, you know, you know, you know, have to be more, uh, invested in it because you are the mother. So I think there are, you know, along the way since you were a kid, there are a lot of, many of cultural barrier. So, uh, yeah, there's, I think one, one part, one thing. And, uh, and, uh, and I think for me, I guess I've been extremely lucky.

I think one of the best decision I've made aside from, uh, do a PhD with certain people, it's actually who I'm married. So I think that I think like... Yeah, he's a scientist as well. Punia S-3 also. One laboratory or...? No, no. Dool-D-D-Garkey.

Wachted to, I was S-2... S-2, S-2, then I'm going to see. So we had a long-distance relationship, LDR, four-sengar-tawn. Works out. He moved here for me. So, yeah, so I think like we really defied the work. We don't have kids, yeah.

But we have two puppies. And we have two puppies. And we divide the... the work between two border collies. Okay. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah, he ran with them, not me.

I, I, I, I, I, I, hit them and cuddle them. That's my job. So, like, how in the room just, like, we're really, uh, divis of labor. Yeah. Like, you know, this is what you do. This is what I did. You know, more other things.

So balancing that is really important. And I think that one most, one of the biggest thing that I really appreciate from him is actually that he never said that his career is more important than me. It's a compromise. It's a conversation. If I have to stay up late for projects in the lab or like I have to travel somewhere for, you know, like pitching and everything like that, like he is fine with it. And it's a vice versa kind of thing. And I think it's a, it's an important aspect to, like to have someone. And I think it is a privilege. I think that's one of the key of why I can do a lot of different things, because I have a support like that.

So that would be one aspect that I think you like it or not, right? I mean, but I think it's really funny. I remember every time I go back to Indonesia, they always ask, you know, like, and I go to like an event. I think it's expected that you brought your significant other to events, I think in Indonesia for some reason. They always ask, like, where's your husband? I was like, well, in the U.S.

I don't know, like doing something else. So I think there is a huge cultural barrier. But also, because, because, because people in the leadership position right now, people in the people in the people who are young people who are young, and for them who are in position

like that, is about 80, 90% still lucky, can. And now, it's more much, but it takes some times to get... You've already... You've got to be... Yeah, I think...

Essentially, like, you stand on the shoulder of a giant, right? So, like, there are so many women before me who are, like, kind of doing through that process, And I think it's not perfect, but I think it's much easier than let's say, 30, 40, 40 time in the last year, and while upon, you know, women, the way we talk, I mean, it's very different from the men, the way men talk. Selan cultural aspect, too, kind of perception, you can, like, perception of people who end up there's so, so, like, or even what that's in the thinking of the person. So, if, if, as a woman, I think, sometimes, we're going to, um, we're not, we're

be bragging. So yeah, like, oh, yeah, like I'm like, dropping it here and there. Yeah, I graduated from Berkeley top of my class. So essentially, just to like draw the picture that like, you know what you are saying or you're doing. Because people do not really associate you who look like a, who doesn't look like an old professors,

you know, like whatever the old professor looks like. So you kind of have to like, you know, of course. You need to like, like, like, give them a background. You have to give them a background, like, who you are. And like, it is a, it is a, it is a, it is not fair. But I think, you know, that's a process that we all to change as a society. That big, yeah, you know, you have to figure out how to remedy your case or, like, how to make it better for yourself. Right.

Like, and yeah, I think there are more women now in science. And I think there are many, many women in science who are very, very, supportive of each other. I think that's like a first start, how we can really change the dynamic and everything else. But yeah, yeah, in the leadership position, it's still very minimal. And I think it's very, not only just back in Indonesia, but here as well. So I think that is a thing that we will actually hopefully getting better. Keep at it. Keep at it. Keep at it. Exactly. And you know, yeah, exactly. And just like, you know, keep, yeah, and then you paid forward to your future generation,

So like my students a lot. Actually, I was working on my CV for different things. Yesterday, and I realized that, yeah, I have more, actually, like more women in my list of trainees than men, among other things. Wow done. And, like, it's the thing that's going to trend to there. Yeah, yeah. Because population of the world, it's more people. Yeah, that's true.

Yeah, I think, like. I think, like. But, but that's true. But as much more than... Ganty. Because it's true. Because maybe division tugas or perjiaan

and, yeah, it's very much. But you, if I'm in front of me, I think, should and will just medleck, like, and better, better than... And, I think, I think, I think, you know, I think if it's your choice to pursue certain end of her in your life, be it's great. I think it is a choice that the woman should make for themselves.

But I think what's really important for us as a society is actually to truly give them the capacity to make that choice. So then they choose that not because they are lacking of the knowledge what is the other options out there or the capacity to choose them. or the capacity to choose there. But it's more about that it is something that you truly want to do. I think that's fair that way. But not everyone should do what you think you are doing. It is opportunity to democratize.

Exactly. So democratizing the opportunities will be something that we should strive for. It's not that like we have to make every woman out there, a scientist, but like it's more about democratizing their choice that they do have an opportunity. these out there. And their future is not really defined by, you know, their gender.

I think that's the important. I'm going to push the topic this. For the importance of democratization, plowang and talenta, if we're bunkus in context Asia, like, yeah. From Asia-Tengara, this, is still, can, anga-nevending, India.

Yeah. And if, if, if, if, If you're in the Uttasia-Intyre, Indonesia, the samestiness, it's the big, 43% of the population asia-Tongara,

representative-notice, not proportional in than Singapore. And, and, this, Vietnam. Now, this, to be it,

once again, I think China and India, I think Vietnam, to some degree, and Singapore, have a long history of, a long history of science scientific pursuit high-scoring exam pursuit

because back in the day that's how you get a good position, right? I mean, you take good like this like everyone can take the test and you can be like the governor of some sort, right? Like, it's a millennium long history. So it's a habit already, right? I think they really put a lot of

I'm not saying this is a right way, right, because it also shaped the mindset of the entire country, right? Like, oh, has the testes not also like not what science or what learning should be, right, to some degree. But there is like a, there is a advantage of that that like, you know, putting so much effort, hard work for a long-term gained, you know, like an investment. of your time since you're very, very small and keep doing it for many, many years. Do you know, that one or two times, the opportunity you have that you actually are ready for that? Right.

I think there is a good notion of that too, right? But yeah, and I think that, I mean, in Indonesia, I think that there are, I mean, I will not change the way I was raised, I guess. Well, I'm not saying. No, no. I'm just saying because, like, I love. the freedom in Indonesia the way that I mean, yeah, we have to take the test

but the test wasn't too difficult or it wasn't like drill onto you the way it is drilled in other countries and I think that actually will make the people from Indonesia like the students growing up to be more of a diverse bunch of like how they think because there are a lot of freedom of like thinking about it. But I think,

it's important also that more than structurization. So, like, curriculum, curriculum, that maybe more than increased in science and technology, because, like, yeah, the number S-3 in Indonesia is far more. And maybe, even, too, because not there's a job, there's not there's

there's for their work for the I think we use this so many times but it's a self-fulfilling prophecy like because not there's not what I'm doing, but I think I think it's kind,

maybe still also if if if from S-3 in STEM like it's maybe still more, maybe more

the name- people about what is what's the benefit of the benefit of the same. So, you know, people that's about, you know, but it's like it's still, still, still still,

there's been, and, even, for process, the S-3 in, the America-S-Ricat, if, like, if, if, in-Stem, it's, maybe, many people,

might not know. If, if, the, if, the, if, if, you're, if you, asal-m-as-as-as-as-cook-a-all-just. Gratis.

Yeah, school is, school's gratis. Schooling, then they're given to give-a-stapen, yeah, stipend-in-na, but it's just like,

like, I think, like, many who not know, but, yeah, what do you need to know,

is like, it's a lot of scientific finding, and work, it takes years. And, and before you can do that, you can do

reset, as a-1-1 then, as a lot of S-hmm, you know, like, develop a project. And if you're going to be able to beaughes or four or five years, we're going to be able to be postdoc like.

So it's a long process. This is because of the culturea, we're not sabre, or we're not know benefit long-term that's what? If we're investing in STEM. I think it's maybe not

not know, because we haven't experienced that, right? What's the benefit long term? And to be honest, to be quick fix, quick fix just I think it's a, well, this is a thing, right? I think our country, in my personal opinion, I think is in a changing mode, right?

Because, you know, back in the day, we're as a country, we are very young, right? So, like, we do need to prove, you know, I always said to where, like, I think doing science in the laboratory or, you know, like, what we are doing here, it's a privilege. The fact that America is the fact that,

the samegain-a-bain-related for the same-related field, and while upon, yeah, not even, but they are an older country, and infrastructure it's just quite a lot of, If in Indonesia, maybe it's even more of a privilege, because infrastructure we're still still in the past few years.

In my hometown as well, infrastructure still must be built to build to build up to city access from one of the other, the other than the other. So, maybe because more than more than more problem that has been resolved before you get there. But we are in the transitioning phase, So we were a poorer country back in the day,

when we're just about, and with lucky-lee, we have many resources, natural resources. We can build our country to begin with. Yeah, of course, there are a lot of hiccups in between, but we are getting better. And I think there are more and more people

who are really committed to, like, build the countries. And I think that is really, really comforting. And then now I think we have more and more income from like different aspects So maybe in the next few years It's a time to like really build something that we have seen it As a privilege to some things that actually can be really beneficial I think for longer

So maybe this is there are hopefully some extra portion of the funding That actually can be a long-term investment And I think that's important as well Because I think like you said if you look, I think the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, show us, like, the difference in which country with resources for technology development for vaccine, and country that's not been in a lot, I mean, Indonesia is in a better side of things, to be honest, a lot of, many, many countries now, and level of

vaccination their 20% or more than that. So, like, this really benarer about, yeah, we have to investas in infrastructure

because when this kind of pandemic happened, you are on your own. At least in the beginning, right? You have to, like, to solve your own problem.

So, so, so, so, so, I think, muddhaan, there's, there more more investasas

to that, you know, if, if we develop drugs, you know, it takes three or two, three years in the clinical stage, then a few years later.

So, like, return maybe like seven or eight years, you know. Like something like that, right? If everything works completely, right? But, like, you know, so I feel like there are a lot of these kind of things that I'm not quite sure, you know, like if you talk about the venture capital or like government investment, whether it's something that will be something that.

because, like, they always want return, right? Like, what is like the kind of, what kind of funding we need to be allocated for the purpose of, like, a long-term return rather than a short-term return? So I think there's a long way to go. It's not that we could not. I think we just need to start somewhere to catch up at the end of the day. Yeah.

No, no, jelas. I'm going to pivot a little, because you know, I'm about like venture capital and stuff like you now, you're now as a bigian,

and as a biger CEO. How do you feel like you have a split personality or... To some degree, yeah? To some degree you have to have a split personality because... Because...

Because... Because, this one, this, this, can, durasiness not the sameang in this We have to pay for gaii we have to give gaijews

every quarter, like, every semester. But if you're like, 5, 10, 20 years to the time I think both are similar in terms of timeline. It's just the goal is different. Okay, maybe clear. This, can be dookung with do with

do it, which cyclos is two-town, which has been daward-ulang. And cyclose scientific pursuit that's like that's how much than that's. I think first, get good people around you. Okay. Good.

I think that helps a lot. I mean, you know, like, I can't do it all by myself. I think you have good people around you. Exactly. You have to know how to delegate things that you have to make. But also like, you know, the metrics of making the decision from one part to the other is very different. But like I said, you know, like I think I've been, I think I should read through it's, yeah, I'm very lucky that I think I have made a lot of good friends

along the way, that colleagues along the way that are also like a lot of students who are very excited, who are very driven, who like really help in a lot of different way. So, so yeah, I think like getting help is important, like working with people you like is really important. and your, people who can match your interest in your personality. So I think you should surround yourself with that. Because, you know, like, I don't do every detail of the things in the company and every details in the academic lab, I will say.

So, I mean, like, you know, just like at home, right? You need a partner of, like, you know, whoever. So I think that, like, it's important to, like, surround yourself with, like, very competent and very good. And I think this is one of the reasons why Boston has been very great. because how many, how many, you know, how many great scientists, you know. Talentatatia, talented in biotech, and in Boston. So, I think it's very fortunate that the location matters to some degree.

Or if, so, so, because if, so, because if, so, because we want to build a biotech infrastructure, there are a lot around it that you need to build. Yeah. Ecosystems are out of bisonpherstead. Beto. ecosystem scientific, ecosystem translational.

Talk about translational. Yeah. I guess let's finish the first part first. So I think as a CEO, yeah. But the thing is that like the way you direct the people in like both sides will be different because in here we have a set goal to like get this to the clinic as as soon as possible. Well, for experiments, some of the steps are similar, right?

because it's some experimental problem. But like for the scientific, like academic pursuit, I think it's more about the training of the people, more like scientific publications. So I think that and like different kind of funding that you can actually accumulate. So like the timeline is the same yet different in different ways. So I think, yeah, you have to work with people.

You cannot do it all. And I think that is a big part of it. Yeah, I think that's pretty much it for that part. And you're saying about translation. in which part? if you've done, if you've said many times or a few times about wanting to do translational science. Yeah.

So that's essentially one of the biggest reasons why I set up the company because it's based on the work in the science that we develop in the lab. But, you know, if the scientific pursuit of the lab, it's basically trying to find something newer, discovering, not, like, develop a product, right? So that's why I think the company was really great as a complementary aspect for this academic lab, because this is where we actually push forward, the technology that we have developed in the lab, for optimization, safety, toxicity, and, you know, like different parts that actually needed

before this can be tested for efficacy in human. So, yeah, I think that's how, I mean, one way of doing it, if you don't have your own company, is working with a cellular pattern somewhere else hopefully they pick it up but usually I think the good thing that you set up your own thing is that like you have more control more control about like okay let's do this right like not just sitting in someone else's decks but yeah Nova endgame you're what's yeah you know what's year you know you're looking at 20 30 40 40 years ago that's

How much? Maybe it's a lot of it. I don't think that's the pursuit. I think... Because I'm seeing you're not very capacits... ...unitas to be able to be able to... ...but also to... ...emimimping organization.

Yeah, right? And two-dawain, if it's if they'reramed with good, benefit is a lot of business... Yeah. ...unto... Yeah, I think my experience, like, running an academic lab area thing, and also being a CEO of a company, I think it's really complementary. You know, there are things in academia that I think should change.

There are things in... Seperti? I think, like, the notions of, you know, like the ivory tower, all of this characteristic of ivory towers that I'm not necessarily a big fan of. I think that, and I think that, and like, like, what's see, like, what's the same the academicis, you know, but, now, I think, more people, that's more exposed, like, what is the opportunity out there?

Not just, like, oh, just do reset and then, like, get your S-3, right? But I think, like, really professionalism, I think that's a big thing that is, I think, a bit lacking, it's the academia. Many of the professor can call you at like 10 p.m. at night, you know, on a weekend.

I was like, you know, you should not. But, like, you know, I mean... That's not professionalism. That's like, lack of civility. I mean, you know, I mean, that's like, I don't mind, to be fair, you know.

But I feel like it's also a learning process that you need to really know, you know, where people are. And I think to help understand that. So, yeah, I think, I think, and also academia can be kind of slow in like getting, you know, like how the grand

processes are, and then like what kind of projects that, you know, how a starting graduate student should work, you know, like, try a lot different things and like, I think how to repackage that. I think that is like with more goal-oriented ideas about

from the very beginning, I think from the very beginning, you know, I think we should have more more conversation like, like your future students, like, oh, what is your goal, you know, like a goal-oriented thing. I think it's a bit lacking in academia. I think like it's a much more well-defined in a company setting because, well, there is a deadline, man.

You have run out of money, you're dead. Right. Like, you know, so I think that is like, there is like some kind of aspect that I think can be merged together. That is, I think it's important and like in the learning process. So I think that is, that has. helps the way I think and I think I would like to do both as long as I could. I see how that goes and hopefully a big part of it actually I can copy it in Indonesia

like, you know, like along the way. I think that's what I would like to do. So we will see. But yeah, you know, like it's a long. It's a long game. I've been thinking about trying to like, you know, really get biotech to Indonesia since I was 22. So So it's been 12 years now. But the more you can experience, the more you know what is possible and what is not possible. And you get to know more people. You met more people. And I think you get more support along the way.

You have like, you know, a lot of my students now will hopefully soon get their PhD, their MD or all of their other trainings. So, you know, we'll be ready soon. Hopefully that's kind of the whole idea. I'm not I'm not really I'm going to be you can't be people who can't

be able to at MIT or at the Harvard That's actually really hard And I'm looking at somebody who has the qualifications Amin, Pa

Yeah, right And this is I'm going to I'm I'm really How much that's just about one or two people, but

100 people from Indonesia. Yeah, not just enough lab yeah. Yeah, digdein. Well, if Indonesian government give me $25 million a year, I think we can run 150 lab with $25 million, okay? Money will come

if money will come if you're there. Actually, I'm hosting well, I mean, you know, in a smaller scale of my students here. Every year I hosted like four to six Indonesians. So directly coming next week to the love for about a month. So, you know, do the small things. Yeah, yeah.

But this is we're long game, can? Now, Ginova, this is, this is maybe the question And the last I'm what you what you want to people that we're in

Sumedang, the Rote, Tarakan, Ache Acheh. Oh, my mom is Parakan, by the way. There you go.

There you go. There you go. This is, the stestinia can't be inspiration or to be inspirations by the

story of your and the people people, who came from the like from Pontianak, like, from Malang,

like, yeah, right. Yeah, right. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, not think that's not think that that's not in Malang, in Pontianak, in Padang,

that's able to get Biasisua in MIT. And, you've got two patent and, and this will be on-gut to the angle more big

and it. And, like, it's on-track, to be able to be guru, full-time in school that great-grey.

Mm-hmm. Hmm. I'm not really good in this last message kind of thing. But, but I'm just about it, I'm justerhanes as a certain moment, because I think, people don't underestimate. Oh, yeah.

Tengen, but you talked about this, the lack of democratization of opportunities. Yeah, right? And talent is a lot more universal than opportunities are. Oh, yeah, yeah, I agree. So, this is how many. People who like, so... ...upacchopin the...

Yeah. You know, you know, you're that's... ...their... ...that's... ...the... ...the... ...from, like, individual perspective...

I guess... ...just do it. Yeah. Literally, like, boring... Nice to... Just do it. Just do it. You know?

I think... One thing, one thing, one thing, that... ...that's... ...that's... ...that is something I heard... I think on the steps in city college to San Francisco when I was my first day or two, I think.

If you find a closed door, find an open window, it's like quite random things that I was, I think I was just walking randomly and hearing that. I was like, oh, well, that's actually a good one. I mean, like, it's pretty simple. So, yeah, so if it's a little bit of the door. If you're not. If you're not, carri end up.

Yeah, that's just do it. keep doing what you're doing. Because like, working hard, working smart, I think that's where your luck will come along. You can't predict. I mean, of course, you know, like, you have to appreciate to be lucky to try to find these opportunities. But, you know, be humble.

Don't take yourself too seriously. I think that's important. Forever learning. Enjoy. Enjoy. Yeah. Don't take yourself too seriously. I think that's a very important message.

Yeah. Yeah. So keep doing. I mean, I don't think I have a specific message. Because different problems need different solutions. So, you know, I think, but try your best and that's okay. Yeah. And, and then, and that's okay.

And you're, and that's, you're not, that's like, from from there's the world. Thank you. From Malang to community college, who's who's thinking? Yeah, right? Yeah, can?

I'm plok at Bercke. I'm not thinking. NEMIT. NEMPLC in Harvard. It's been buca up two patents and then-huhcans and then buhack that's great-bank.

Tingal, this, how can be virulking? Yeah, right? so that from Nova from Indonesia then I think you'll be proud of that if that's a lot

if that's something that like I said since I was 22 I want to like bring more Indonesia here I'm trying to I've tried to raise money so many times

and yeah I mean I submit a lot of proposals to different people in Indonesia you'll be surprised with platform this your sound you're more And you know, like, like, Valentino, no, right? Since I was

like, I was with you, like, I told you, oh, I'm trying to get these students, these students. And we tried to, I wrote so many grants to Indonesia, like some government official and stuff, never happened. Hello, tellong bring in this, yeah. So, like, you know, I tried.

I mean, like, that's, and things are getting better now. So we'll see. Like, you know, that's, you, like I said, you know, like I said, you know, like, keep doing it and never get, you know, because, you know, I think the reasons why I never give up, like, keep doing this, like, one step at a time, you know, rejection happened, you know, like, I'm just telling you guys that, like, you know what, um...

So what? Yeah, I know, like, essentially, like, you know, all of the success in the CV that you see, there's, like, triple the length of that CV. Excuse me? Of, like, the failed fellowship you applied, right? No, a lot more than that in terms of failures. Exactly, like, so many things, yeah. The thing, yeah, the way of course.

I know. And the like, yeah, yeah. Publication, I'm not. but I'm like, you know, you know, you look, you know, like, yeah, folder of project that's success, yeah? Folder project that's not success, it's it's, it's, but you're not ever really need to feel

the need to share it with you guys because now you don't need this folder, right? Like, yeah, there are longer folder, actually, of the failed projects. Yeah, so I think that, and I think because it's a really humbling experience, I guess, that to have these conversations today, to, like, re-trace, you know, know, you know, you know, you know, you know, I was, uh, and I think recently I was writing

some personal statement of some sort for a job that I'm applying. And it's, uh, yeah, like, you know, going back, uh, from the beginning when I started in comedy college and, you know, who I encountered, what I did. I think it was, uh, you know, it kept me grounded and reminding me that, you know, like, there are multiple steps there that can go wrong. And I was very lucky in a way. And I think that that's why, you know, like for this effort to bring more things to Indonesia, like, I feel like, I failed a couple of times, you know, like, or bringing more Indonesia here. I failed a couple of times. But, you know, like, I think that I was there and it was difficult and I happened to figure it out.

I think that hopefully we can make it a little bit easier for the next generation. And I think that what we should do is. exactly that once you are in a privileged position, to be honest, to help others, I think we should help others. And I think that I know things were harder when you were younger, for whatever reasons, people are shit at times, right? But, like, I think that's not, that should not shape the way you treat your next generation. I think they should not be subjected to the hurdles that you were subjected to. I think if you can open the door and, like, make it easier for them, that's what you should strive for.

So I guess the last word is, yeah, be kind and don't take yourself too seriously at the end of the day. Continue the Cinderella story. That's, I think, the hope, but you'll see. Thank you, Nova. You're welcome. Thank you for the time as well. Sovah from Malang. Thank you. This is N-G.