Endgame with Gita Wirjawan - Reynaldi Hermansjah: Pembangunan Daerah Bisa Rata Jika....

Episode Date: August 21, 2025

Pre-order buku 'What It Takes' sekarang di:https://sgpp.me/what-it-takes-yt______________________________________________Saya sering menyampaikan 5 atribut yang membuat Asia Tenggara ketinggalan dari Tiongkok selama 30 tahun terakhir ini.Salah satu atribut itu adalah infrastruktur—dan kali ini, saya diskusi panjang, lebar, dan dalam terkait topik tersebut bersama Reynaldi Hermansjah, Dirut PT SMI yang sudah lebih dari 30 tahun berkecimpung di sektor keuangan.Mengapa kita bahas dari perspektif keuangan? Karena mau apapun itu, ujung-ujungnya butuh ‘fulus’—termasuk membangun dan merawat infrastruktur yang sifatnya jangka panjang (atau yang Reynaldi sebut “marathon game”).Percakapan ini niche, tapi penting untuk bangsa ke depan. Penuh realisme, tapi juga optimisme sekaligus.Kalau Anda investor, episode ini harus Anda simak.Tentang host:Gita adalah seorang pengusaha dan pendidik asal Indonesia. Ia merupakan mitra pendiri Ikhlas Capital dan menjabat sebagai ketua Ancora Group. Saat ini, ia mengajar di Stanford sebagai peneliti tamu di Precourt Institute for Energy, serta menjadi fellow di Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs, Harvard Kennedy School.Tentang pembicara:Reynaldi Hermansjah, seorang profesional di bidang keuangan dan infrastruktur yang telah menempati berbagai posisi strategis di perusahaan nasional dan internasional. Ia merupakan alumni Teknik Elektro Universitas Trisakti dan meraih gelar doktor di bidang Manajemen dari Universitas Pelita Harapan. Kariernya dimulai di Nomura Securities pada tahun 1991, dan ia pernah menjabat sebagai CFO di PT Jasa Marga serta Presiden Direktur di PT Indonesia Infrastructure Finance (IIF).#Endgame #GitaWirjawan #ReynaldiHermansjah___________________________________________________Tahun kedua Endgame Town Hall segera menantimu!Dapatkan tiketnya di:https://sgpp.me/endgametownhall-ticketsAtau jadilah bagian dari gerakan intelektual ini:https://sgpp.me/endgametownhall-partnership_________________________________________________Episode lain yang mungkin Anda sukai:https://youtu.be/Xi6USMoORB0?si=nyYfxy-SjskIyBN9https://youtu.be/cSt2cPYxYpw?si=-orGtAY8KTFV7aHphttps://youtu.be/xu7RsG54fLg?si=sYOQbtZG9ZaWyiUM

The stiland we can't getchat the light. We're in the time. We know expectations you're but we also know market is like what. Yeah. Because they're not, because they're can't have expectations but

not know market, but we can't be able to behead this. We've got we've got to do three hypotheses. Yeah, to be idea

without full-us, too, same is, bo-gong, right? We're going to get up, Business is all about cost, but some of cost, but some cost to mitigate.

We can be able to make up to them that you, if you invest in project this, I can't help you, maybe not from the financing, but we can may risk aspect project that.

We are your proxy. Absolutely. We're not even for the Sometimes it's still It's important To be able to be able to rampant Thaneravent Infrastructure is industry

It's a marathon game To make upro To make a lot With institutions that's been matron Yeah I value that a lot Hello, time, today today, Hello, time, today we're coming from PTSMI

Or P.P. Sarana Multi-Infrastructure Bapa Rennaldi Hermanshah Donaldi, thank you very. Thank you, Pat Gita. I'm here. Bees had here in a charity that's very embankhaken this. Amen.

Amen. I'm going to talk about a little bit about when you're going to be at school at Anisius, Trisakti, U.P.H. How can be able to the places to be places to be it?

Yeah, so basically, I'm here in Jakarta. Then, then, yeah, I'm set to be a couple of of the other than what's about cutta and in SMA I'm in Canisius.

Lalu, I bettellin, I'm going to, through, the PENMaru, right? Yes, the PENMaru,

I was actually, I'm getting in Pajaran economy. But, because I think I, I'm justas, and I'm at

from the people, I'm going to get to the electro-tristee. Then there's then there's There's time I'm able S2 S3 I'ma

Topic yeah what What's S3 Mentor I was Mettuckin'etka Tatea'n'tcchari-lathes you are passionate about That's one of One of one of my first of

One of my own I'ma, I'm in the position where I. I put in IEPO in JASA Marga in 2017. Soxed-Singga, I'd, I'd justicatization BEMN as one of the material I'm-Ungucusesization, penguperan, BMN, after going public.

Dibalik's a bit to Canisius. Why isius? A good question, when it was true, please, I'm not a specific why I'm to Canisius, it's one of the best

until now. I'm a product semi-product PL that's quite competitive too, but canisius but like it'su now

the sunambugnation more than from the part of the And the other's the way to the way. For the time, for the same time. I guess they're not quite liberal. Because the people are they're in there.

So, so. But I gave a time to give thempatchelaghan. And, in the fact that, I was going to take care of, yeah, because in the time it's the new thing, with computerization, well, but still until digitalization, yeah, computation.

So, so, I think, I'm going to be able to be able to do. And, I'm going to be more more physical than chemistry. So that's why

I'm going to electrow that's why I'm going to pediccan. Generally, how, so, Indonesia to the if you

maybe, maybe the context is the I'm going to see that two thousand Asia andgara too but

but Tionkok too jelas product of the yeah, how Indonesia is

can be with with the country and again I'm that it's something because that,

because that's fondation from the way from the same TK, S.D until he made made manusia

who'd be a benefit for at least the family and the bank now. Now,

the if I mean, I, maybe I'm, maybe I'm probably, I, yeah.

So, so, so, all, things, something, it's, it's the deconculec.

yeah. for the discipline and maybe about what the body body percettis it needs to

be emphasized because okay pengotawan is something but foundation, but fondation dasar

whatat manusia budi pecerti we're and I And the disciplinean, I I think that's a lot that's escalate

quality of the manusia we're in the I'm going to get the world this evolution to be related to ecology, the climate,

geopolitic and it's exponential I'm I'm I'm in the gububu who's everyone, we're uphapenting,

we're too, to be a gooderati to the endraise muda to the so that's going to evolutions in some more exponential in some of

this. Now, this I'm to take the SME. SMI, if me, is a catalytic.

He's can catalyzasi the peran Indonesia to make from the infrastructure. But if you're going to infrastructure,

that's the same thing that's hard infrastructure. Jarang-sacallie that soft. Soft is, yeah, education. Now, Tiansk, in 30 years' time the last, PDB per capita, tumbled 9x-lipat. Indonesia is just

And more three-lipat. Asia-Tengara is 2.7 times lipat. This is

because of the attribut. Curang of the the penitability and investasasic

in infrastructure and the and the government and the the

power of I'm about with you with you infrastructure is to

get to the to the about the depot connectivatatat connectivat it has to continue to

dobate the abat the development and yeah infrastructure I

so so is something that is that the

of a under I'm in I think infrastructure will always be the main focus for the main focus. Tendiponged, we've got to the basic infrastructure,

then there's soft infrastructure, or we, kind of, the stilatheas-is-sustructure, that's, that's, the home-sacit, what-n-nambon-pastar, that's also infrastructure.

Now, Tad-Tas-Pas-Tor, about the development. Now, soft infrastructure is from the infrastructure that's indeed. And, under the condition

school proper, and good, can makeasel can muret, who might be the, like,

we said, the soft infrastructure from, what, the, what, the, infrastructure,

that, if, Infrastructure isa long, like we have. Istilah, if I'm a marathon game. It's not a 100 meter sprint. Sure. People who are used to 100 meter sprint, it's in marathon.

Memang 100 meter, first they're in the front, but, but 900 or more than 40 kilometers, the sysak, that he's not up, So, so much. So, so much, enough-upon-a-fructing, or perencaning or perencanal is right, because if it's a lot, it's, it's, a biter-all-panking it's a got It's just not much

And, and, the the side of the project that and the funder that has been a pass that's quite long. So, I'm in fact that's infrastructure and will bekerja or

good if, if maybe, what, the side of the people who can't, or who may be it, have a profile that same. I'm going

cupas a little. about energy. Because, I think I'm not existential. Tenpa energy, we can't get metabolization. We can't be be able to yeah, right?

Yeah, can. Jalan, it's perlou, to... Yeah. To, but if he's a to the t'atig-a to-b. But if he's not not got to have energy,

he can't just a yeah, yeah, can, truck-ne, motor and soal it. Now, I've beenpherapy can that electrification

Indonesia per-orang to also 1,300 kilowatt-hour per capita. In fact, I mean, if banks want to be a bank-sha-modern, it's minimum has 6,000 kilowatt.

Yeah. Now, Singapore and Brunei that's 10,000 kilowatt-hour. And the questionan is what's to make from 3,000 to make, to bea-6,000 to become to become more than 400,000 megawatt.

Okay. Yeah, itungan caser $1 trillion that's that we've got to beputed. R.U.P.T.L. We're about 70 gigawatt, yeah. So, it's it to bea-400 or 470, that's $1 trillion dollars.

How much that, the pemmikipedia? Okay. Yeah, I'll correctsied, you, that's for the renewable energy. Yep. It's a whole target.

Total built-out Indonesia is 80,000 megawatt. Right. So, right. So, right. So, right. So, we're not wrong, R-U-PTL, to target-t 70-Gawatt

in, for renewable energies. Yep. Yeah. Contributions, in there, relative there, in the way, in the way,

we're in the same, we're in, the same way, from the types of renewable energy is there. So, we have, what,

the, the, the, micro, mini-hydro, mope, hydro, it's, so, geothermal,

and, wind farm, and, solar pv, also, even, from the same from the biomass but I'm sure, sir, sir,

but in the development of energy or pemankit energy this, it's, it's, but, but in

several sectors certain, there are uniqueness each, and, like, if in geothermal,

it's like, like oil fields, pa, where you know what, to beaubour, what, uh, what name is, what, name is geothermal,

that's, now, this is there, unsur risk, right, where, if we're, we're, maybe,

maybe only two, or one, that's, that's, if we're, we're, we're, the position we,

we, we have, ...emilicistilagued derisque issue this. Grand. If we're on top of geothermal, we have program named Graham. Basically, we derisks risk... Drilling that, where, it's justerhananation, pa.

If you're doing the Peneborean that, we're going to chip-in, if it's if it's there's got to getembalation but if it'spamination there's composition that's more big bigger thangungan it. So, it's stimulate

the companies of geothermal to active, embalmanket listick, with basis geothermal but the riskconia it can mitigated

not all of it, but a partion which is already very helpful product product our product our product the gram for that. In some of the

project Hydro this also there is where in which business model project that project is not feasible

we're we'll allow there product we also that's SDG Indonesia One that can We're like, again, skim-skine-a-as-a-skema-a-skeching

so that there's a project in Lombok that we buyayy and be operational, that we're helping to deris, in the art, making investment grant. So, so with investment grant that, project that's made feasible, we can then, also can also can do can do financing.

Now, this the true story of blended finance. of blended finance. And this has been realized on one of project we're in Lombok to Maron. So,

that's our plan we to be to be in-aub- and catalyst. From, from the energy-terbarukan,

yeah. In-ruth-U-S-I, where's the most feasible for Indonesia to-de-Defan? For the key-sustainable development goals. If you look at the position Indonesia, sir,

uh, hydro, I think, and there's bucti from a big part of the project that we pay as a percentage that's the most of the hydro. Apaca,

that's a mini-hydro that's 10 megawatt or even. With many of the allirate, that's like that's like hydro, it's like hydro-septan-potermal, but the challengeantaned must be sure, yeah, that's un-since,

that's in-bawarra-resigua. So, but not all of that's actually, now, if this is a-pentawan, we, pa, yeah, Indonesia, not too many

tit-tit-tit-tit-y-y-y-y-y-inging that's constant. Because it's not constant. So, what, what, namay, kipas that is based on top. It's not true, so much, so much hydro is something that's interesting. Maybe it's interesting, maybe it's notary if you're notic. But if you, Patistically, Patifoldoourour our majority is hydro.

Hydro, gas, but gas also, but then geothermal. If you're not. So, the energy suria, the stilessilhanes, it is a waning, pa. It is a land.

If you're going to makeasel can so much gigawatt tenagia, you've got to passang solar panel, Bap, in a certain location that if it's if it's

if it's like, what name a lot of, that's good, financially, that's good. Now, this is be able to, by one of one of the company who's

they've been buying solar PV on top. Because bendungan it's a space that... $50 HGB. Unutilized,

you? Unutilized. There benduited. Now, they're to massing solar PV that's a lot of that's a concept another thing,

so, baghita. So, that bendungan bendungan we can maximize to make uptang floating solar pv with a scale that relative

that's more. Maybe what can be jellasksk is from, from the cankerogulasi for the importance tariff. Yeah.

Man who financially the most feasible It's either hydro, or mini-geothermal, solar, wind, and everything. Yeah. If you had, kind of concept is like like Jalan toll, if not so, so if you're not saying, so the person who wants to build hydro,

it, he'll do not make a tender for what PPA that he wants perlue, and then, then, N, N, N, N, that PLEN, the PPAs like what? You know. If you can, if you can't, the money's back again. Yeah.

Sucur, succour, the money is to be able to be it. Yeah, can, return? Yeah. Now, it's from the money that, mannually, the most feasible.

And I want to try to galley, apaca there's a structural from the regulation, which, which is,

the terma, the tariff's not It's not It's not be more than this. That's not even about it's not exactly to be able to be able to be. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It's, that's just that we're visible, Park. Yeah. From, but, but,

it's, comeally on project preparation, if I can say, one of the kind of the kind of implementations project project infrastructure

is project preparation from the first study that's right and this because maybe can't be even about

but but almost umumn't project project infrastructure to there there

overshute and this really we must have we have mitigated also from the fonder, from the financier, sorry, from since financier, we have mitigated that, that oh, this iskian, but there potency,

this. Because, like I said, pa, infrastructure is a long-term game. Many things that titherto, it's not mitigated, to build mini-hydro, with mnodet one-sungay, then open waterway,

memotrackan, superbettance, so, but then, then, tibat-tibalongsore. nutupeen waterway it's about it's about it's about it's can't expense

more than perhaps from the contour this is that the partred that the meringan it's very it's very and it

has been that that all of that that kind of that I'm even

kind of kind of kind of that's that's that so that's that I'm so I'm saying

infrastructure is a long if you know, if you know, part of the end up. Intinia from the government or even kankerogal

and you think you have been there and will there and there's a tariff this is, it is

the dorong to get us. Because this is statis because populism. Yeah, right,

yeah, can that's the bottom. Populism is indah. But if the but if you're nothered scale that's more

the financial feasibility also can be partanguagaping. Yeah. Now, that's how I'm going to to know, the keseimbangan on populism or the

and the penningan poohism with the importance to make economic or financial feasibility the, so the ceilinging this is

to be able to pass on to the consumer. Maybe one of the other than kind of important, but, sometimes,

part of the time the second returnerner. Yeah. Sometimes, the investor this is under connotation

has made, get a minimum and minimum that. Now, this is always

a got betelac backang, yeah, expectation return and then there,

because the potency risk that's okay, I need to have a return of secian because the risk that there is that. Now, there's it's,

we're going to, we must, like I've made example, we've got to paring that we doing the risk king that we doing.

With we're making making pern derisking that, expected return he theoretically should be able to because he's because he's

being returning to mitigate risk, part. Now, risko, maybe we mitigated, but,

we're mitigated 70%, 75% it should be can get under and from

the side of that it can be more because, because regulation,

and the adjustment and it, stages can, Pat. Not as a corporation, can, ma, okay, rubah, this, this, this,

prunein, it's not, but the there's, there's in the gap that, we've got in the gap that, we,

many, product, the stilhersking, so, so, so, we're, we're

in the time to ender to the investor, with the other than the other than the risk of my, I'm going to be, I'm willing to turnin this, so that's,

so that's the project this is realization. Maybe that's one of the one of the same I, at least, the part of us, and maybe what's the same. And, maybe, what, to be degasks can, is it's the efficiency is making

So it's not, it's the restingingot to be it's not, with the end upheasance and effectiveness, the meredaiing technology, it's just in,

but it's also but it's also it's also being to be able to keep but this it's the too,

the upunuching that, this is And what other than project, ispublic for public, pa, yeah? We're trying to make sure to make sure that public that's the end uproleting the infrastructure

that, sir, right? So, so, so, it's, combination is a lot so, that, that has

be, dissuiked. Yeah. People if people, people, like, Jiamanai or Jat GAPT, that's, the penguanguangu energy is 10-550-kali, and, bandinginging search at Google. Anak-anac or ad-a-de-a-de-a-a-kita,

if we're monganaganan SORA to create image with Pemberdaan AI, that's the endergely 1,000-5-5-5-000 compared to look at the world. Yeah, we think, we're making the idea this is more robust to the moment.

And I'm seeing this, this is a good thing, merpacantial, and more than exponential, the end up. So, I'm going to be a

electrification per-orang-in-in-a-oh-hour. From 3,300 kilowatt hour per capita to minimum 6,000. So it's the waytations you're just enough menducung thesis, that's it, for the bobotan for the development energy. This is not be hirawka. This is perloult,000 megawatt

that's that if you can't, if it's a big one of barren. Yeah. That's the challenge is, that's the challenge yeah, yeah, yeah, like we're also

still quite long make adderum to payyrium to payemangit electric from, what name, fossil fuel,

but, but we know, can, even, now, this fossil fuel batobarah as far as

economisan still, but, yeah, that's, very, It's not. Yeah, Batubara

still 5 cents per kilowatt. So, so it's really so much. So, man, it's challenge here, pa. Yeah. That's,

non-batobarerah, non-solar, the energy fossil fuel that, but also even must be what,

yeah, the good yeah, the good the time, um, back, sucher financial

the, orpunusinusin. Yeah. Well, ma'amah, that's in the kind of governance, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, so, that's the timeang, Patong, Tjongok, who's been banged, Banyx-a-Wan,

capacity-terbarucan, but they, they were back up until they're doing-belangue, thaninging can't capacity that they've beena-Bongued in Indonesia, if it's more than $43,000 megawatt. It's, it's menjewan. It's, it's very much to beckononged with the energy,

whatever because of the importance because of sophistication the poweringingingotism the technology. So, I mean, I'm looking fossil

to still will be underdayakant 50 to 100 time to the time. But, but not

it's not that we have to hearawka energy or thesis, energy terbarukan. That's, what I'm

I'm not nuclear. There's not in the SMI to be able to learnmere? Now, it's,

Pat. so, we're just just menandatangany a set-upacquaten MOU, that's,

that's in hydrogen. So, so. So, so. So, so. So, so. So, but

the, but the, the, but, we're, we're, we're We have to make up to study

the energy electric basis hydrogen So at least We have started What is it's like Up-class, from what name is, sophistication, yeah,

from the simple runoff river mini-hydro then geothermal hydrogen We're doing And, on nuclear,

I'm notherst, I'm not even in the community in Indonesia. It's been between people, to beaccarcant.

But I don't, at least to us, there's some proposal we want to build electric

with basis nuclear. I, I'm not, I'm going to bring controversies. I just to build on

because the other than programs of the technology that's new Microsoft, Google, sales force, Amazon they're, they're going to

perennelian technology nuclear. Dikarnaken clangkaan or caterbatassan conventional wisdom. Yeah, Microsoft has been

accusation three-mile island in New York, long island. And in Singapore, in the publicauchampan or institution of technology for the important the development data center

that's that's in the context small modular reactors. This is the reactor nuclear and

modular because it can be modularization per 10, 20 megawatt. Yeah, tempel like Lego, if it's like again 20 megawatt.

Be it's like that's why in Singapore so much extensive apalagy in America in Tyeongk Tionk should have been I'm afraid

if people in here want to use their or laptop their to make to be able to power to

energy, more not to solve to support with with this Maybe eventually we will go there, if, if I'm not sure, I see. Cuman,

if we're still set in order to be in order to be? Hmm. Maybe technology, not, not, not, not too rumied, like,

I mean, within reach of our but, but ecosystem we, is up, now, I was there still still. Noclear, to, perenchanalance of 10 years. Yeah.

But implementations are 100 years. Yeah. It's a long game. Yeah. Yeah. And, it's an ultramarathon, Paul. That's a lot. Yeah, if we're just 5 kilo, like, I can't be 41 kilo.

Now, 42, sorry. This is what I'm seeing, if I'm back upublication, Sometimes, Tere mythos about the nuclear. But in the last year, the number of the decadent that's realation

with fossil in fact that, or not longung, the painacit, that's about the fossil, that's 7-8-juta per year.

Yeah. Sedangan, that's based on nuclear, it's just 3,000 to 4,000. Yes, there's episodic in Chernobyl, Fukushima,

2001, in 2018, in 80, skien. Now, that with the development technology

nuclear, after the time, and can't be able to be aftown job-and- and

efficiency, effectiveness, more be being able be pat-gown-jaw- I'm- just, as a note-

for, for like, like, institutions that's in the public sector can't happen things like that. Yeah. That's already

Japan, and Singapore, back. And we've got there, one, two a two, the two,

um, and about it. Sure. Cuman, but, but actualizations the gulirations, but,

Maybe the mainstreaming the mainstreaming, pa. Munard menacea can't marasie or discourse of this. Okay, this hypothesis my first, tercate with the debaubotaningingan energy dibundingan connectivity. This is not zero-sum game. Connectivitiveness is important. But if, if I'm inruthsia,

but if I'm not bode for the development energy this, It's very-hasa. Yeah, yeah, right? Now, hypothesis two, that I'm going to doji, this is back again, in context per-binding of Tiansk with Asia-Tengarra.

Yeah, right? Tioncok, it, be-housal, because, bekembang, because, they're centralist, but,

in centralistis. many democracy in the country, as far political, desentralistic, the economy, very centralistis. I'm looking SMI

this is very be able to be decentralization activity economy. Yeah, because, want, not want,

if Papua, if you're not if you're notic if Aceh, Kalimantanutara, and everything, that remote is not beck by the institution like SMI

for the energy or infrastructure whatever is lunac and non-unak and more rentan we're and more discentralistic sifat politic

and more centralistic and more centralistic the state economy now this is to beobati it it's that's that's about

that's because because of the rest of the person who's in the same we've done in what you've been challenged from pagita, that's, we're, we're doing on the business,

corporations, we're also in, we're doing the pemda, sir. In-situlah, we,

is it's stillan- transformation to FAA. We have accelerated PEMDA whether they're going to to make up to school,

to build, park, or even national, or penderang of the target our pembah and

the reason is our our is the concvergencansican uptimpanguania in the so that's, still,

but maybe, even, too, the part of the part of the that's that we're that we're

that we're on. We're just just we made payayayy Pembrantan Cota Manado

where they can the to make-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-celeras connectivity from the system ulant-a-r-r-r-minu-mina to room-and-a-court,

which, at least, and, by the time, that's the same-pat. Now, that's the power we, which, the area, like we've gothita like we've got to beaughan the area in Indonesia

should not as much the way of the area that's the part of the part of the Jawa than in the out of the Jolla. That's, we're doing that we're doing.

This is the matter that melototot to us four phenomena economy. Yeah. Senjagan, and centripetalism, the partimony which is the primary, that's the more than the more than in the

seconder, apalagia. I'm looking, you know, the power of the SMI, to be a mullied to mutter back narration, yeah,

so, agar that in the city and in the area, it's more to move. And that is a process to how we can

a little to to to take centralization. I'm going to galley more than I'm in Tokyo, Chongcheng, Chongqing,

Shenzhen, kota, little, that he's he's to Stuttgart or to Mountain View

to to make buchuk them to make alhaking technology with the people of

the city or the city or kota or kota or kauter secondar that's

now that's can't people without with Beijing this is a there's a capacity for

they can make making fundan through munis municipal bonds there there

is there forksks to for SNI to be under the succouris

surcou narrations So that's the other thanes. So I'm going to try to explain, Paa, in two things. First, about the penanaan-a-manyan, maybe the portion of the last,

that pen-danaan it, we're even, we're still ultimately to try to make, and, this end upbidate-in-obligation dairate, municipal bond, mini-skele-machem-machem-a-machem-cum.

But even PAMDA, because PAMDA in one of the factor utomation, we have, the capacity building. So, we build capacity from the PEMDA

in a way that they make up and about the building in basis of pinjam or financing and that's all the

muchm, that is capacity building. Now, what naman, that's it's about the same. But, but, we're not, we're like to try to make sure that PEMDA that can't municipal bond, marmaicant,

parlor in Indonesia, with melanchopy portfolio of genis instrument. Now, the other, we've made up that they're, to be a biteraping

to be a variety business, or to, the plowal, we have, we have got up, we have put up, SMI Institute. Peran their

utama is we're doing what the name isa-teranness regional diagnostic so we're making diagnostics to some of the area we're, we're motret

the area anda this like this We're we're notherstructurry, based on the based on the infrastructure this, the priority first you're back on, the two, the three.

Now, this is a kind of document dasar from PAMDA to be able, oh, okay, I have, I have, I have valid justification which is true-tata, documentation

academic. I'm actually more rather than making passar, impamination, based on it, they're making-jewkan pinjaman. Who,

they're just, they can't even manage to PEMDAE, sorry, bank of Pemawonaerahua, but we can also in the Pimberian, we're just the It's stiller the pat-sasarant,

Pa. That, that we're too, with we have SMI Institute that on the motretan thematement,

thematement we also, about, like, persampahan, or, or what, so,

we're, we're just, we're getting, we've got, we've got, we portrait, the willaughan, this,

as macro, as a commasic, this is that you're going to be able to? Great. That response is how about? Oh, very much, but,

very much. Because, we have to be able to do, themda, this, want to be made, to, to deliver to

the people. Cuman, can, what, yeah, I, I, make a,

oh, I, I, I, I, I'm, that, or,

to the room-sacit. It's also very important so, uh, now, uh, we're doing, we're doing,

we're doing, it's a badasas saiderhanal, yeah, we're doing, yeah, they're welcome

so, but, but, this, this, this is a basis, approval process

where they're where they're to dop. And then to the, then to constituent- why,

why, I'm not back- but I'm, I'm not even when I'm not I'm up on the school now this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this,

and this, we're justifiable, I'm, have, uh, unit, from the SMI that I'm doing this. I,

I don't know how, ag, ag, sticky with, the, The right for the area to beaqaing fundraising

as far independent from the publican. Tantpahe non-aeration Pembangan economy as a decentralized will be able to beaithasan and you

can't be a catalysts to make educas what you have done and this not perupea. But, but two years five five years again,

and do you know and do realisasically because I see this this is there took upto be sure there

yeah right yeah right notasic yeah because capyawaiian and proactivit

from from the people in the people in the government or in the swastah

yeah now this collaboration that indah which did dookung by the

yeah, yeah, yeah, more than far as also, too, is boon, right? Yeah, right? Now, this fullus already as a catalyst

from SMI but if not decouin can with fullus that's this is more difficult. And SDM

yeah, has been dilatique by SMI from, the, decroyokin by some I'm

I'm not, I've got two hypotheses The first is the verbatement energy in the construction and the two, the decontalization versus centralization of the activities

economic. This is the this is the hypothesis how we have to make up capacity to translation

from from the notpastien and it's risk. Modal this is This is the risk because it's because it's-prediction,

can't-it-pastien, it's not-pastien, and SMI is almost like the Dantara can translate from the not-pastien to be-cue and the-nil-pac-pac-pac-divis and

d'nil-a-miney yeah, or this, multiple C, single A minus or whatever, that model must be going to come. FDI, in Asia, Tengarra, that's $230 million dollars. Every time.

Singapore, dapest to $100 to $140,000. $1 million. Indonesia, $30,000 to $50. Philippine, Malaysia, Thailand, and Vietnam, $10 to $20 million. dollar. It's just

it's about two attributes. Singaporeanata is it in the way in the negation the law on the money on the same

three pagas if they're about case, the court of law the law

is very be taken in partangang law can and the second Singapore is can translate

uncertainty be quantifiable risk. Yeah, I was while I'm going to copy, if you're going to narrow model anywhere in Indonesia, people, they're about,

there's 58% probability electric will be on three months. If that's the business you, if you're going public in here, the onset's

down 20%, bottom line is that's down 25%. That's, It's can. But there's there's there in Indonesia there's there

there whileahualah lighty, inshawalah Lyshrig not matty Yeah, it's how, for SME can't lethackish Indonesia or massaracatluas in Indonesia to

more be able to translasi because if, if that that's a reason you, you know, you narrow 90-100 trillion in Indonesia, this 1,000 trillion will come from the world.

Because we need FDI. Peran our part we're talking about our part of our own to be quantify. Quantify at least risk. Yes. Resicco you're in fact. It's, maybe.

Now, maybe I've ever I've ever before, some of the project, or program that we've been used, it's been a facilitation to be risking. So, we can't make a matter that you know,

if you invest in project this, I can't help you, maybe not from the Sisi Financing, because maybe you've got, financing, yeah, because maybe you've got, financing that more, more long-d-pans, but we can derisks aspect, what project that.

Lally, there's process, there-risking, there-isking, there-as-a-lawing. We're going to do with a lot of this. Now, we have one, which SDG-Indonnesia One, which is wadhawns, mongulciful can't facilities, to support technical assistance, grants,

so, that's almost miryp, process derisking also, yeah, again, business can see all about cost, but. Some cost,

cost, certain, can be mitigated. Or, So, also, we're we're also where to make

and make sure or menerbitten obligation that's based green, that's for the issuer there extra effort

can, ma'am, making second party opinion this, this, we'll take care of that.

We'll take care of that. But we're able that's all. But what's the obligate, obligation, the green, blue, orange bond. Comearin,

PNM, also menerbid can, that, yeah. Now, that, that, the, that's,

but, maybe, we can, we can, we can, have been, in, the,

in all, things, we can, we can't get chatt- langit, like, but,

but, but, the, In the scope of the scope we can't we can't answer the part of the part of the case of the same we can. Shooks, we're also can't do the same thing for that. But, but in other than it,

we're going to be risking program to minimize and then other costs that timbled as long, that's scope we can't be able to and, and we've got to other than we're doing we're doing.

We've done like that. The, the, we're going to be a-regorah is, for how this can belemagical

yeah. So, and, how much the government in-kebumen, in inhad,

inundarie, in whereupon, you know, in there's every in, you, if you if you can, be able to in a

in the way that more can't be quantification yeah, this, this problem is we, we're in

era pastaca the that can't can't can't between opinion and facta. If we can't be facta,

more than more than more opinion, which is more opinion, be judgment again. Yeah, can? Yeah, you're delect. You've got, you're dosa. Tantpawing facta.

Now, this, if I'm not yet, I think I, institution SMI, this is very badiapen. In scope In scope, In the scope, we can't How much

men socialization this If I'm back To back To pay in PEMDA, we're making A PEMDA, POMDA, to be able to in case of PEMDA to

As far asing There are 512 Libyan, more PEMDAQA in Indonesia, we're We have we have brought product knowledge to them about

that you know, that's, well, you know, but I can be born Ruma Sacket but it's four years

later, and then you can't make a pastar, but maybe two time again but also

if you're Macksmalking A PBD BPA, BAPA Kempomptuance Viscal Bapa with Mimimimimimpsi

that can be the year the pastar it can be time, Multiplier effect for the people, but I'm notepaugh,

but I'm having to be able to pay the amount to pay up to part of the amount, that's what, that's what we're doing, maybe, this is it's like, if, if, mesosialisisicaling that,

we're, we're just about, what, with World Bank, with the government, to o'wanger, to socialization, if, the term, urban credit worthiness program.

So, we can socialization it, that you know, you can't, and build a new car, one time in the future, it's right. Beto. If you're not,

five years, it's too many, maybe, that's not, maybe, that's not, now, this, if I was, I'm going to,

how, how, how, how, how, how, so that people tell, at least, at least, in the right now that we're doing. This, if we're looking at, we're going to look at,

or less 10% tax ratio, ratio of the peddapet, the room monetary we also also, um, berned in terms of p. just 45%. Yeah, Yeah,

Yeah, out of out of yeah, yeah, but if we can't get to do it out of the we're not

if we're to make money, or M2 can, yeah, if we're not not

we're, you're going to get to do with PDA, yeah, and then getting in FD, And I'm

I'm looking for the golden opportunity because in the world barat, particularly in Hongkok also in Tokyo, but in the world this liquidity

that's this 140 trillion dollars they're they're and them and the people and the

people are they're not know to comean and they're they're very important with

the catatant premium risk so much And in the Yeah. Yeah. we're like calm

just like stable and peaceful, right? They're also make sure diversification. To make sure res adjusted return

but problem yeah we're not the jumput. Yeah. Now, this we have to begang

towaan this, bro, sis, we've been translashy uncertainties to be risk.

And I'm in cubu who's I thinkerangangang India if we're stillsaintiffant for the translarsiae for the same 200 to 130

million dollars and disproportionately more than than that's the sameagery that's not Changli think we're not we're more than Singapore

resources by no they have had no, they deserve it But we also deserve to deserve to be a lothurt as alocator model to the area. But pipa'nion is to beersihin

with capacity to translation and also peneguaghan the if we're not going to miss the boat. The train will leave the station. Now, that $140 trillion, nang, nang. Now, that, that, you know, that's, you know, that's the time.

In other than, you know, the endangas seminar, or where we're being asked to be able to be number, you know, I, yeah, in Luroradi, I'm trying to repositions SMI,

the basa-cassah crannia is, we are your proxy to find, finance or to be able to what name name name's in the Indonesian infrastructure growth we are your proxy

we are on the ground we are on the ground we know what is going on on the ground we have been able to different sector, not only textbook study, we can't work We work to talk, but we So we're going to talk, we're going to answer Tantanganguea Tadaday, I said, we are your, if you want to

invest in Indonesia and to invest in an infrastructure project that's sound and, yeah, potentially, what name, that may, make return that's bad, use us as your proxy. Absolutely. And we can also be able to work on, because we, as the FBI, we can't we can't make sure, this, ma'aminesines

our own, the same, we're in public, and corpouration, we also have advisory business, we also can make sure

can't make sure. And if we're if we're making partnership not, we can't get in one project. Bukkan only SME

to put skin on the game. But SME is perenn to sweeten the narrative. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Umpermanis. Yeah. Narasiness. And I'm seeing look,

this is very big baserkan the pranen this translational capability. Because I'm looking to the front, this the need to bea

not small. And, yeah, I'm not want, we're not to come from out. Now, Don't even in the story. Incairassie that has to be a fixed income.

It has to be an equity story. It can't just be a fixed income story. Yeah, right? So I'm not want I'm not going to run away in Indonesia only because of the pastien he will get put pook and buched.

But I think they're going to make sure they're doing together that productivity productivity, you're you're going to be a power. And with the productivist

probably up and productivity, he's going to be slonjoran just but if he has done, they can't go and

slur, succour, can't, suckur, can't, yeah, right. If you know, if I think Indonesia to

it's to be narrative equity story. Yes. Not only not the narration fixed income.

Right. What do you think? it has to be the ultimate target, because, yeah, but not only, right, can,

the debt investor, can, I don't care how you look. The main, like, I'm going, back, the time, the time,

top of the amount, top, but if you, this, I'm also perccia to, respect

business, to, the, to the, the business it, That's like you put skin on the game, you know,

the stiland it's just, that's, we're like to try it, Pat. I think SME, put skin on the game, sweeten the narrative, with partanguropan,

that narrations, that will be makingacted productivity. Not only asemate repartanguoling, you know, and upon, people.

That's, why we, We also, with, Pak, with, impact, we're called. Multiplier effect

how, the level keyconomism that's what, that's one of one

indicator up the kinerja our multiplier effect what? We're we've been

the plerangan on the one that that's, that

not only just because it's but it's just because underwent around because people can't bewarey without the fear of being begal per-economian mending cat because

at the time 6 people still can't buy-warned so that's allan from the amount of there's own there Now, that multiplier, multiplier, multiple-embourg effect that's over-witching

with, we're not only only just to pay for PDRU, esterangue, for example. Forductivitus marginal, productivitus marginal Indonesia on a PPP-appended basis,

purchasing power parity. That's, is $25,000 per-a-one. That's right, right. Singapore is $211,000, if not the same. With the amount of the people. Yeah. So, if we're going to bea-gain-of-farmic-chip or whatever,

or whatever-pun-law, for what you're making suretment manufacturing, he'll probably will look at, can, yeah, this, this, this, okay, this-a-a-cissar-n't-a-courn't. That's efficiency, proficiency and stamp for the kids of 15 15 years. Singapore is number 1 in the world.

The only is number 6.9. Vietnam top 20. It's been lewati that's the line, Thailand, Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia lewet, Vietnam, okay, if I'm going to build fabric, I need vocation,

right? This, the young adult of 15 years, can't be able to be English, can't, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's a piece of,

The two, the two, The two-futivitazes. Yeah, if you can't just for three-spatoo-a-hary, but the one-in-in-a-half-a-hary, I'm thaninganed to-a-messingat-near-old-legged. Yeah, suor-tem-lid-lis-a-lust-lust-lust-a-cli-old. Yeah, this is-cac-a-pis-cac-cac-pix-a-pac-pac-pac-pac-a-p,

but you, if, I think-sac-cac-san-pignat-pignat-pignat-pfitititititit-s. Now, this is this is right now. Yeah, yeah. We're going. We're a small part inshallah, small part

so that multiplier effect line yeah also yeah, I'm going to maybe a bit more bombastised but I'm looking SM this

as community multiplier Yeah, right? Bissue, narrations this is So to be multiplication for the people's important for the SISC to accelerate the prosperity of the nation Absolutely.

Now, the next thing, yeah, we've spent galangued first, you know, you're going to focus on maraton, not sprint. I, if I'm going to talk with to

to make up to make upro with the same-you-marat-ton even if you can be stretch maratoning is 42 kilo just if it's 200-kil yeah

well work with black rock but there institutions institutions that can't make sikap much longer than 7-10

That's that's We can't give up 25 years Yeah We can't bring up

Yeah Yeah Right people Yeah should be mitra with institutions that's

making with duracy 35 time because they can deal with volatility Right

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, how Ibarat a marathon, but

also, also, a short-term game 100-print sprint. It's just, it's kind of, it's about somebody. Maybe if he's commodity trader,

or what, maybe, yeah, between the the time or the day-an, make-money-n-a-bunan. But if we're on the infrastructure,

the process of the project just two-tawn, break-even period of the toll is 15thal in average, yeah, soing the concessions,

managnie to be given you, five, five, five, yeah, you, you know, be mitra

with the, who have had, that's that we said, we've said,

we've been, 75, time, yeah, in the world, this, can,

many, but, what, the types of investor, that, Yeah, because we, because we're because we're not even in infrastructure, yeah, we're going to becharance.

As far as their who has been a horizon panang, if I'm going to have horizon pendek, they said, three years, what do you want to pay back? I said, well, ma, must tanglem. Next. We're going to get to someone who's, okay. My time horizon is 15 to 20 years. what kind of this

what kind of this is that so that's right so because because maybe we're like talking about this I'm doing I'm just

I'm just ajack that's if I'm if I'm if I'm under industry that Ijank people Ijank people

Ijank on the pola thinkerner so it so it's so how we're making what, what, what, what,

past with profile our time? Now, maximum duracy, how long? Yeah, on, do you know,

on, maybe, yeah. So, equity, maybe, equity, maybe.

equity, maybe, maybe 25 years. In the time, later, can be a actualization,

so, there's, but maybe in the next five years, if there, because, 19 to 25, not,

no, don't, yeah, yeah, there's about 19-year, it's about 25, I'm paying for example, which is still, okay. To local or asing?

Local. And 70% of the payation we're up because infrastructure project in Indonesia, can't be a big, as a big one. There's one from outside swap to rupee? For exposure to 70%?

It's more. It's more. Many, sir, sir. Yeah, more than to get to us. Like, this, I'm saying, look, before you have been abyssin the time you, whopon-you-pocket whether or even,

this tenor's so-gene, 70% project in Indonesia is a rupee, if you can't give rupee that's competitive, like, um,um-n't-you-up. Um-um-n't-a-oh.

There, ma'amble that, um,-adda-oh, there's-and-mibing-and-and-and-a-oh. Well, well, It's been able to be able to be it. Well, ma'amortemate. But unfortunately, but not,

but not. But, you know, you know, you can't long in analysis of a this,

kind of $950 to 1,000 to yeah. Kalaa with Malaysia and Singapore, the

number of that, you know, this is very correlations If 2a 2% of PDB, if you're going to make-in-angka-it to from 1,000 to 2,000, the company. And this is tumbled to many times with money-duit that comeary and

with hope to be daug-ulang in the pastar-modal. TAR-old. TARGARGARETER. Yeah, right? And this is structural. And I'm like, and, and I'ma'anthra, and underpin, to educate, not only the masheratheuas in Indonesia, but the people are not that you're not going to GPS, Indonesia.

Yeah, right, who can't translate uncertainties into risk, silhoux, silhoux. We're in the term, istila we know but we're not but we're not even because because of the

because they're not expectation but not talk or market but not what is what is what is that what are

investors multinational or even international there are there pakem patem certain because And we can't-Muadani this.

We speak their language two-arrahe. So, both to project-nawomen, to-sens it. Yeah, one of the sort of part intermediary, yeah, to make realisersation this. We've got to do you do withesies. We've got to beaute-anergy in infrastructure. desensualization, and translacy.

There's other, if the hypothesis we'll put us to do you? Maybe one that's back to Bapa I'll say,

and the the person menusia Indonesia that because at the after the

after it's there, can't it, It's not. It's the power of the power, yeah, if I'm,

resiliency is to, something that very important in the kind of condition now that's dynamic. If we're not resilient, we're not going to survive, those individuals, yeah?

So, So, So, And I know I'm notarack, so, the foundation that's very

is the Manusia Indonesia, translassinia, you know, and good. Guru, is the

person who are the people to make translashy. Yeah. Uncertainties been

less uncertain. Yeah, right Yeah, right up murid to beaerate, and teaching it's more scalable from parenting

because people are people are there two or three children but but group but group

and with 20 to 200 murid so so if we want to scale up narration the

of our focus to guru I'm I'm more than technology in the keycunderingingan because he's making humanusia

the murid that's the stilani kertas puttipolos and besie I'm not I'm not term if I'm gonna giveggy 2.5 to 3 million

in Malaysia 40 to 50 50 million Malaysia don't to Singapore I'm not not-itraimah, yeah, yeah, well, yeah,

yeah, right? Test case is that, and that I'm sure can be partangu-jolp or in Amazon, belog, he, ah, maybe I'm gonna be doing, I'm just,

this, this, M-P-in-in, or S-M-A-in-in- and, yeah, right? And, if, maybe, in Amazon, gajy-gachinging is $70,000, but he's got to be a guru, as a good for the girl's because of the

because of idealisman. Yeah, but that's yeah, but that's scale to to make uphugan

with quality that that's that's it's very upon yeah. Yeah,

that's good good that's very important. And then I'm and I think this,

If you're not-lunate, but that's lunact, but the lunac-you-a-lunate-you-a-lawed-you-a-lawed-a-lawed-a-lawed-a-lawed-a bachemboat I have some ideas, especially in-pendidikan. Yeah. It's interesting, yeah. And, it's, and, yeah, like I'm saying,

also there's certain spot in me that's something that's something that's something. You know, I'm saying. You're a product pediguanian that's an issue, strisafi, UPA.

Yeah, yeah. I value that a lot. Yeah. There's a lot. There's a person. There, Naldi. Yeah, I'm, yeah, I'm,

I'm, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm I'm this this this is much much

people who people that's a sort of something important and public infrastructure

like it's that it's that I have I have to but

the process And so much structure to there's process that's quite long I'm saying is that's just can't even

because that's one who superlucked that's a lot of the sameerhanation ticket for granted yeah yeah, it's justiqutur public

disdial can for public but so back we're we're overawatt infrastructure public that, That's the right? So, right?

Yeah, people have to be a upyaping, but it's just umawak but, but, but,

so much, can't, because we can't sometimes, the way, is, but,

yeah, man, yeah, and infrastructure public that is used by all

people, and, and effort that's, that, not, yeah, you know, that's serious, I think I think,

I think, I think, right, pa, yeah, for, marilla we're, because it's for the long for the end upang

for the end upending. That's, I'm not as sophisticated, but, but the whole that's hard, if I'm not

it, yeah, merawat. Sometimes, sometimes, it's, but it's really, that's really important.

That's better than Braemarawatt. Yeah. And it's but to full-us. That's right.

That's what that's that you're thank you. Thank you. Thank you, thank you, Pat,

thank you. On the last, I'm also in a podcast Sucas always, Pagita. Sama, same. Sama. Tuman,

that's Rennaldi Hermansh, the Pimpinan from Pt. SMI. Thank you.