Endgame with Gita Wirjawan - Roderick Purwana: Danai 300+ Perusahaan Teknologi di Asia Tenggara

Episode Date: October 1, 2025

Baca buku saya, 'What It Takes: Southeast Asia’, sekarang di:https://sgpp.me/what-it-takes-ytatau di Periplus: https://sgpp.me/what-it-takes-periplus------------------------------------------------Great news! Endgame Podcast meraih peringkat ke-4 dari 100 podcast terbaik Indonesia versi FeedSpot. Lihat daftarnya di sini: https://podcast.feedspot.com/indonesia_podcasts/-------------------------------------------------Roderick Purwana adalah Managing Partner dari East Ventures, sebuah perusahaan modal ventura terkemuka di Asia Tenggara. Dengan pengalaman di dunia investasi, teknologi, dan keuangan, ia telah mendampingi ratusan perusahaan rintisan dan berperan aktif mendorong inovasi serta pembangunan ekonomi di kawasan.Dalam episode ini, Roderick membahas hal-hal yang dapat membantu pertumbuhan nasional dan kawasan—mulai dari pendidikan, investasi, peningkatan produktivitas, hingga sektor-sektor mana saja yang perlu digenjot.Selain itu, Roderick dan Gita juga mengupas topik-topik yang dekat dengan kewirausahaan. Beberapa di antaranya ialah tiga karakter yang dimiliki para founder sukses, manajemen risiko dan kepercayaan (trust) sebagai kunci suburnya investasi, serta pentingnya meningkatkan etos kerja.#Endgame #GitaWirjawan #EastVentures-------------------------------------------------------Episode lainnya yang mungkin Anda sukai:https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-hh_bKgnJ6FqDJwTs5YB3xMvQrFCDSoJJelajahi dan jadi bagian dari komunitas kamihttps://endgame.id/Untuk ajakan kolaborasi dan kerja sama, hubungi kami di sini:https://sgpp.me/contactus

Can't is the calengan of the founders that's not be able to be able to evolution in the calangon of their that's like how how it's like

from the from the anti-fragilitas entrepreneurship is very difficult and it's not for everyone have resilience how they operate under pressure yeah,

what's just what is determination success There are people, there, there product what, there potential market there too, but the end-ugn't-un-un-you-hmm-you-old. Hello, my time. Today we're to get-dating Roderick Purwana

as a lot of biggie from East Ventures. Roderick, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, thank you. Thank you, Pat. Thank you, Pat. You're one of

not too many people that's a lot of course Cornel, Stanford, Cingua how much the first of the room tanga, in school and all the other than yeah

maybe a little, yeah, maybe, uh, what, uh, latar blackang, yeah, yeah, uh, I'm,

uh, I'm, uh, I'm in Jakarta, in what, what, yeah, menagah to the other, menh, menhack to the other thanepenus, yeah, maybe entrepreneurs. I mean, I'm a entrepreneur.

He's a a one foreign forest, yeah, and from from, from, that, maybe, is something that's something that's something that's important, yeah, in the other than, but... So, if I'm prioritization, okay, if if I'm from

he's got, he's got, he's got, he's from Australia. Ahya-kia-ya-sai, kakea, yeah, technique-imia from China. So, it's, so, amang,

from, maybe education is very important, yeah. If, but, but, I'm also very really, to bring,

for the kind of, you know, now, then, I'm, I'm, there, Here's here.

The school is here. Nabur. There's there's a lot of When I'm quite from I'm going to learn in the world in America. I'm not know what

Maybe from maybe from influence Baca to look at the TV or in where I'm saying oh I think if there's a time school in

America Now I'm really it's really to rubek, I'm actually I'm going to because I'm sure

in America that's the system penidicant thing that's one of the kind of maybe yeah

so that I said I said I said okay I have I have to okay I have from the

right that's then. And then after after lus you, you know

work in some yeah You know, as professional, and then want to be call upon alocator

that's how much that, from as a professional who, who, who, and, then,

to be a person who amelocasican model. That, transition is this, this,

this this, this, this, this, this, Maybe, because, uh, uh, uh, because of it's, uh, when I wash, uh, at one, uh, at least in Cornell, it's, I'm able

technique pangan, so, uh, because, uh, can't be pangue, uh, maybe, uh, I have two passion, one, one, the technology. I'm, I'm just, because, uh, I'm not, uh, I'm not, panguant is something that's something that. I'm not very important, yeah, because I'm,

I'm sure in the kind of in the field technique, I'm in the way, so I think, oh, this is very very, but, but, maybe, the way, uh,

apaca the perjana or how I, I'm, I'm sure, I, I'm going to, I'm going to S-1, I'm S-2, from Cornell, I to Stanford University,

I'm I'm still, technique industry, with the S2nda, with the first of finance I'm sure. I also think that when I was,

I saw, actually, it's really, it's really, I'm not accidentally learn finance. Now,

from it, I, the, I, the, working for my company that's, the firm,

that's, Hercules Capital, in venture, The Tos, at the Tos of All Right, that's even though all this too, that's maybe, why, career my career I'm, in bidang finance, became capital allocator, yeah, right? Now, that, that, that, allal of it, you know,

the beginning that, why, and, and, after, I mean, I, I'm going to do something in the Pankan, yeah, but, until today but it's the samepaniard but after the end up in the technology and the majoringia can't in venture. You've been building a lotusan.

Industry that's uputemned in technology, so it's, perhaps. So, yeah. So, if, if, if, even in the business, Pangan, percentatessing, it's not too so much. So, there's, but not too big more than,

maybe, in the bidangued, yeah, biotech, medical, semi-conductor, consumer internet, like, line, yeah. Yeah, maybe less than 10% to, de, but, but, but, but it's not

it's not be able to bebeamang, yeah, because, can technology, you, so, because, the technology, so, want bidang, whatever, it's about the aspect technology now.

From the way, there's a chance to, I mean. I'm going to say, if you're going to make a penidican. If we're looking at Asia-Tengara, there's, there's,

we're going to be 8,000 universities. Yeah. In Tionk, only 2,600, universities, one is one of the Cingwa, which,

where you had, or somepet there. mahasisual in Tjok 29 million. In Asia, Tengara, 19 million. But,

the reality, Tyeongkok, with a number of universities that's more little. Tentunuching, with a number massisual

that more, they can produce property intellectual that's more more, with the

and the more than the more more than what we can't eveninging what we can't produce this long as well. This is the level of the education thingy, the level of the level of the education redda or or dasar,

to make menh. It's, the kind of the PISA. Yes. Program for International Student Assessment Assessment.

Yeah. That's, and communication, for the people of the 21st, Tyeongkok is number 2. Duleu, number 1, now Singapore is number 1. But, majority of Asia,

Tengara, is it in-bawah, rata-rata-dunia. Indonesia, even, position, if not-sal, from 81, one, in Asia-Tengara, it's only two Nagara,

Singapore and Vietnam, that's at-a-rata-dunia. And in front, for the way, for the way, for the way to do you know, or make-a-appenant academic us,

so, yeah, the level and at level high, it's better than now. Yeah. I think

very important to, uh, uh, um, to, uh, manalisa,

too, yeah, because, back, back again, back, So, is a good. China's up to get to get to make,

even though, while they're still from their time they're making d'i. Now, it's maybe peru some factor, too, from the government, yeah, which, which, the derongan government, yeah, which is very clear and, what,

the, what, the setersediaan facility-inia, but also one of one of the other one is, ishapakas, talk about, talkaer, because, because, we're, it must be from someone or something.

That's, that we need to be able to beckon, if, if, yeah, I, I, I, I, I, can't be, I, because,

first, when I was, I, the influence, the most, the most of the room. But after that, after that's back,

than the middle of the middle, more than we're going to be, more than guru, yeah, and, and group in school rather in-of-the-roomh, and it's,

and it's, mementook the thinking we're making about we're making the time, yeah, can, and,

and, and, after, after, then, okay, to, okay, to the penidicae

too, and, and, From the basisarly, it's very important. Mucka again, now, what's the same. So, yeah, to getassist up. Yeah. And, uh, what's the same thing.

IQ, Indonesia, rata, rata, is it's down, right, right. Yeah, right. That's, it's beeneran. If it's, if it's beener in, it's the right, what's be done in the next thing, maybe, curum, also, guru, and how much more than how much more than how good our young people.

Because, not the issue of, actually, capability, there, maybe, yeah. But, the, what, the output today, is still reddish, yeah, for that. In Tokyo, Korea, South, Japan, Taiwan, Singapore, that they're bullet. If you're recruit guru, that's the percentile the last part of the topang with compensation that layak. Yeah, if in Indonesia, guru,

the gajy's in above $3,000. Yeah. Yeah, it's soly to recruit from the percentile that the most atas. I, too, I, too, like, when we're, like, if we're doing experiment,

yeah, or Thor experiment. If we recruit guru gajun each of $40,000 we recruit only 1,000 for some zip code or 1,000,000 $40,000, $40,000 $1,000, $4 trillion,

$1,000,000, $1,000,000, $1,000,000,000, $700,000,000. That's a lot of best. So, yes, can. What, is the time? what we can't socialization idea, about the

investasily, if I'm more than investasies in technology or even curiculum. I'm not going to discount or anulir the importance of technology or curriculum, but if I'm inauder that's a guru that can't make sure, um,

the power of curiculum and technology. I think, I think, if it's, I think, if you're start from the gurus of you, yeah, because, Pa, yeah, you're Oh, oh, maybe gajiness, sometimes, sometimes, or less than that's even though, maybe redire in a lot. It's been paid every three-bulan, yeah, can.

So, if, if you're not, you know, and with a penitaphatant just that, you know, to be a good, you know, maybe they're going to be able to be able to be able to learn and more than, how much, with what, with the amount of the amount of the amount of minimum, yeah. Now, what can be doing, maybe

efforting is from two sides, yeah. Taddy, can, the part of the public, yeah, because, maybe, policy, and, yeah,

yeah, and, and, and the government is quite aware too, even, is quite aware, too,

but, the other than, that's part of, but, that, maybe, that is, private yeah.

that's where, technology can't be able to tool or alat to beampant to be a bit of education too. That's why

from the side is ventures, we're just just be reinvestation in the business, we're in

Indonesia, in Runggur, we're also, we're also, we announced there's investation in Vietnam. And

why, why we've got to investas in because we're going to look at and belajure, because that's, structure and, uh, policy,

and what's different, yeah, and what can be able to be able to be able to give input, yeah, for what, yeah, for what,

that's, what, what, what, what, um, from Indonesia? Um,

why, why, after, this, they're, they're being, that's about people that'sa-tankingar

yeah, I'm sure you still can't live Singapore, from the Sisi-Penegra. What, D&A. And, and the tantalance of all, I'm still, but I'm just just from Vietnam,

I've already, Ho Chi-Min, two-mingue Lally. Maybe, maybe, one of the other is, maybe,

maybe, policy, long-term policy to make sure their economy their very clear and de-apagasycusy with quite

even though even the tankangans also better itself yeah Vietnam Uttara or Vietnam Southan is like two negara that's different yeah with historical background and other

but if if if there there there is there fibrancy many miriping in Indonesia so if you're going to there's there's there's there's been around there's

yeah can't out of the same, get out of the lander, so, really, if the tullisance kind of a bit better, but if if it's got to be able to- Bhaasas, maybe people also, you know, yeah, and same.

But, but, but, but, but, even, entrepreneur, entrepreneur, the sameaguer, that's, you're, too, too, uh, just,

uh, and, and, uh, that, Although from GDP per capita, more than we're back from the side, from the other than we're in, but it's not quite

moving to get in, yeah. Although, I think, biergimana, there's one that we have more than they, population our, they're more than they're,

potency our, quite a lot, too much. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but, but,

like, we're going to be able sikap. Yeah. I, I, I, I, I, I,

look, Maybe model in Asia-Tangasat who is the most the most of the sameapur. Maybe Singapore. Why not in Gip-plag just for all the nine of the other nine countries?

Yeah, right? And this is, that's the most it's the most of the quality of the curriculum, technology, and compensation it too, maybe,

but not-mugent if it's just in gaudy about $3,000 yeah, Who's good quality-forat, or in East Ventures, or at least-lap, or in Amazon, meta, and antarra and everything.

But I'm sure there's enough, or enough, people who are in terms of from education-digy, to make sure, but asal, he has a capacity to put a lot of the other thaneus.

Yeah. Yeah, this is maybe a biter, yeah, of the power of technology. Because this is to call, now, because of the product of the technology to only as a bit of a bit of

some of one, one, maybe, product of the other, maybe, the data, but one other, about about

product pediccan, I'm I'm going about that we're just can make

two hundred hundred 50,000 product stem, this one. This if you're and a lot, Tjewk, Tjubljubljew, not yet, with the aspiration,

we're going to beaumasan our, apollo, that's about 15thal over 15thal, that's that's, that's around 40,000 of population. That's 70-1-juta. If we can't

converses if 250, that's just, it's, that's, about 300-a-tawn. Yeah, with assumption, every person from 70-juta to want to stem, But if in Malaysia, they canvarsy 40%

that's how much you, maybe figure of the guru there, maybe, there's a good person yeah, that's full-time, but maybe, actually, can, also, many gurus guru who are informal

also, yeah. And, maybe, maybe, it's not, sort of figure, talk, and inspirative, yeah,

from the system of And then I'm going to say, okay, I'm going to be a guru, I'm going to make sure, I'm going to make sure, I'm going to make sure. Because, this is, it's decades, but if it's not, but if it's not from today, like, like, Cata, it's about 300-town, to be under that, you know, to make sure it, that. Now, how much how much more than, that's the more than 100 years to beaughed before 100 years, yeah, can. Abys it, how much more than it's going to be able 50 years.

And it's maybe from education and exposure where, the, a lot of our young our and can be aware and be able to, oh, I'm going, in this, in the bedang this. What else, yeah, what again, yeah, with maybe, technology and AI, yeah, yeah, competitiveness-nesses-na-it-it-nesses-it-it-up and if we're not-catch-up,

you can, can, be able to be able, and, and, and, like, and, this, competition's more global, too. That's something that is really, be-itred, because there's because of the stagre because of the same. I'm not to get-saint.

I'm going to be sure this one. But this is when we're going to if we're going from Sambang to Merokee. 88%

from the room tanga, it is the people that are people that not build-in-in-sat- 93% of electorate that

noblos in the area and that's not per-finir-in-s-a-1. That's that's like, that's like, that's about that's about and if you're going to

or on a jack or a bus, a carata, naq, from, from, to school, in the

room, to, people, but in school, the guru, around to two to 200,

students, so, the scale, you can, the business that's, Scale-skauling is the guru. So, teaching is much more scalable than parenting. If you're decedassan that's okay.

But if mediocrity, what's stupidity, that's caseless. It's, if I'm not structural. This is a very structural. It's a quasi-private, quasi-government, as far as government, that's it's a private, it's it's a croyokin.

And that, maybe narration there's a better better and scale that's the key player yeah, and multiplier it's, if it's a good thing, we can multiply,

scale is more quick. But if it's a good thing, that's something mediocre or not good, that impact is really very good. Yeah. So, it's back again.

Well, it's going to be that. Quality of guru, too, yeah, and, uh, also, yeah, motivation and, yeah. Yeah. We, we're going to go about on about investasy, you know, that's who's making

investations in the ratus and also, and also, and I'm going to about about capacity Singapore can,

can't more than the world. From the scale of more than from the number of the United FDA that's the same thing $30-a-million dollars, maybe there's a lot of maybe there's a lot of them, Vietnam,

Philippines, Thailand, 10-20 million per-torn. Singapore's 100 to 140-1. Total, Asia, Tengarer, 200 to 230 million. How, so, we can be able to be able to be even than Singapore.

And, and, the main thing, is disproportionately, disproportionately, in the world, the most of, yeah,

same and a half, six million, maybe, yeah, yeah, But but but but but but but but but but maybe, yeah, because singaporea may be the same yeah, I think one, maybe, uh,

there's certainty of law or governance, yeah, because, can't, uh, uh, uh, uh, the endangue, uh, that's the, uh, uh, yeah, knowing the risk,

certainty of risk, yeah, and certainty of potential outcome, yeah, because investors, see, not takut risk, but how to measure the risk.

I think Singapore has done a very good job at least in what, yeah, it's giving some certainty to risk and so investors can price the risk. That's maybe the basis of

Singapore this. So, that trust or credibility for investors to invest their money is there. If what can be we can't, maybe the arrahness has to

there's where, where governance of the of the same thing is maybe better payiki, maybe the way, maybe and it's really, there need, there, uh,

there's, uh, probably, uh, so, and that, and it's, because if there's certainty of things, also, investors will come, for sure, because they, they're always looking for to do something, right? And if in Indonesia, potency we're not so much, but partanation is, we're not overbiasa.

But how to make that into reality today and not in the future? If I, if I'm in myruthsia, this is this what I'm not in the future. If you're not, this is socialization is, to we can't about the more than weakombollah that's about. It's very much with end updoin

FDI more than if we're if we're using under the baseline that 5% yeah yeah to yeah to

just 3% and 3% from 1.5 trillion dollars B.B. We have to just 45 million dollars yeah yes

we just we can't just Just to FDII, yes, from, from $30 to $75,000 or $95 million, or $95 million. That's also in-bawatt-Singapore. Singapore, 100 to 140.

Yeah. We're home. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now, this, per law,

of course, or peneghaken of the law. But, two, if, in order to say, capacity, or peninkaten capacity to translate, from the notepastien, which is the risk,

which is the upis, can't be able to predicts, is it, now, this is meant translation from uncertainty to risk, this is,

you know, back again, to stem, right, to think, if we can, if we can't produce stem

a year, the amount, the $250,000, and it's worth. Mm. Mm. What do you think? I,

I think the goal of 8% is double. But from where? Now, can, can, factors factor for the amount of course, consumption, yeah, there's government spending, of course, and investment. If you're from the investment, if, maybe I'm gambarking. I can't be able to investors in America, then, when I was here to be sure to talk about investors. And investors, our own, you know,

If from the from the Sisi Because of the Because of the Yeah, can Novel for them They're back What they're

What they're What they're Yeah So, yeah So, Yeah, we're First time This time,

Yeah, There's, There, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Mawawawaw, Yeah,

This, this, This is it, This, this, Injik, this, there's been There, we're We're gonna' guide. And we're

and we're the power of the institutions that's even to make making risk that because, back again, the riskon is there and people are aware, but now they're not able to make make sure risked

how much, how much how to make up-peran institution to be to be local guide this? Now, if I look, if I'm, maybe there two sysi, yeah. In one

And this And it's just to be And it's just a palis Yeah So that's the capital Yeah One, maybe from the public,

government, Kwasai government who can, which maybe there's a Moodenctra Yeah, which,

which, Moodan Moodan, maybe engine or machine to as local guide, yeah,

for, to be, for different different industry, but for various sector, but this investasies that's very, so much more than a motor that's interesting. But it's one only, now, if we're going to make, I look, there's a machine that parallel, engine that's parallel. That's been from the city private. And from the side private, we also need engine or machine that

And how can I, okay, do you, global capital? How can I be this riskoes so gina, because we're this legal, we also know what we're talking about what we're talking, and this is the price, yeah, can. Why don't you come? It's, it's maybe maybe can be, uh, uh, can't be one of the

doorked. So we also, yeah, yeah, we've got to fashiccoulding us because of trust, yeah, for the investors. Because, back again, many of investors our genusen's many different.

From high-network individual, there group local, there regional group, there sovereign wealth fund, development finance, there assurances, the company, so many,

so much, and risk appetite, and preference their better, but the question is all-same, Am curious, I'm curious, but I don't know enough. So how we can't be able to be mando local. How much, how, in fact,

you know, it's notherasiness, to be able to be able to be taken to be taken to beckon-jolat. Yeah. I think, to make sure, the narratiness, the, the, the thing, maybe, maybe, to education it. But, if, for education, narasiness,

So, simply is the most importantly, yeah, yeah, right? So, yeah, right? Yeah, right? Yeah, can, that, uh, maybe we can't even, uh, what, what's on the other out of output that's as well as well-outes and they're gonna look, and look, oh, okay,

uh, there's purportion. Because, narration alone is useful for education, but, at some point, people, people, too, be asked, yeah, exactly. Chowahua, yeah, yeah, so, yeah, So me the money, so me the money. So, so that's what's the output is.

And that, that, it's, that's something that we have to, what, yeah, indaki, we think about, capital market our, yeah, can, challenges it's where, yeah, can, we're, maybe, we're back in, backerment in,

partumboan in capital market, it's quite, now, now, more the drive from retail, not from from the institution. foreign capital is more limited

now, and there are things that we can't do you to make that so much so,

maybe back to it's also can make sure outputs if it's making making outputs

it will be more more than even more than even more than even more than even even exactly. Yeah, right.

Now, this, this maybe that's maybe that's there's to endowal yeah, while, yeah, what's gonna'isket in

yeah, that's what what's what you're gonna do youcalfe? Yeah, if, maybe specifically, if in private capital and in venture capital yeah, right,

we're, we're, business is also business risk, and of course, because, because we, the bentugn't fun, has life cycle, we have exit.

If you want to be able to be able to be it, Kriot the real-inatown-i-o, IPO is maybe as a exit less than 10% for all-exits. What's the most often terrestrial or acquisition also. So, so, so,

so, from, from, we're seeing the two things too also. If you're going to be able to do, of course, maybe, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, yeah, maybe, but, yeah, yeah, can, yeah, and, yeah, unfortunately, maybe so far, yeah, can, yeah, can, in industry tech, there, there's, there, there's a, yeah, IPO, IP, who

that performance IPO'u-you-you-you-you-you-old and, and with it, after-achir-in-it-n't-you- yeah, maybe so much, it's

a lot of a lot of time. After we're doing this, from we're doing, from here, we're going to, we're going to make sure, see,

how we can take our own actions and do things and show show, you know. Maybe one one of the IPO, we have one of a four-a-a-covy, uh, uh,

Augustus 2017, it's about eight years. Congratulations. Thank you, uh, April 16 this year, um,

there's been done to landa in bursa Indonesia and uh, receipts, yeah, and, uh,

uh, uh, uh, uh, performance, uh, company, but what we're

in the, is, is, uh, this is a person local, yeah, domestic brand can,

has a small brand's also has a he'saughan barista, yeah, can, he also buy from farmer, farmer, product, copy, local, so, ecosystem local,

but what's the but the most important is, and the key of the key of the experience is it, because the case we're

thinking, oh, this IPO, investor's going to come from we're going to we're not the right time. We're not, Because we're not yet, but we're also more than the potentials this.

We can't say, eh, t'etrault, not so if take IPO, the way, the way, the other than it's to be where. But this is one, and one, that, every, every long journey start with one step. Because, yeah, this is just making inspirations, today, like, start-upers-lestone other, to say, okay, I'm going, the portfolio we're going to do. In the portfolio we're doing,

after that, we're asking, like, yeah, who's going to be able to hand, but for us, but for us,

yeah, it's justmagnat just, yeah, that's maybe from the IPO, but reality,

maybe the two, M&A, accusation, rate sale, it will be the majority from driver for outcome,

that's too Now, now, now, now, now, uh, uh, yeah, people, uh, multinational also, who's got to see and buy a person,

but, but, it's more limited, yeah, yeah, uh, back again, uh,

whether it, maybe they're, look, oh, the clarity of certainty, apacac, or from governance, or from what,

that's something that we look up, uh, but, but, the people, it's, now,

maybe, yeah, uh, but, but, So, it's, it's it's also, yeah, as a good, you know,

to get the right outcomes. Right. This, if I see the number of UNABK in Indonesia, kind of more than Malaysia and Singapore

are atas it. And, I've been asked, why in Malaysia with Singapore? It's a lot of, it's more dynamic.

But the structural, that I'm saying, is, yeah, the money bredarerer is more

in there. Yes. Yeah, is M2. Yes. M2 in Singapore, you, you know, the ratio of PDAB's the ratioing in the ratio,

like, it's about 150%. In Indonesia, it's just 45%. So if, if you're full-lussing from PDAB, you don't have to asar model ratioing that's on the top of PDAB is on that. Because it's just, you know, that's statis and finite.

Right. Right. Right. This is right. We're going to get to come from out. Yes. Supay fulus is more than the dynamisman more.

Yes. If not, if not least, 90 or 770 emittent, market cap total, 700,750 billion US. Sedangangka, like in America, one of

one company, like NVIDia, and from, but... P. P.D. Yeah. Yeah.

If, if the top 10 company, represent about 40% to 50% of the market cap. The top 50 represent 75% 76% of the market cap. It's, it's just from the company and why not can't be more than maybe it's more. Now, maybe it's always, yeah,

be plajary, too, whether there's got to be able to beacques and regulation, or not there, or there, and motivation. Funes. 24-cham-tube, but if $245% of PDB, yeah, perbanking, and the market model, yeah, just around the ratio-natured.

Yeah, M-2-a-hers-in-a-kynes if we're making-sacquick-old. And, maybe it's both from retail and institution, yeah. Retail, it, before COVID, maybe just $2.00-a-cout-a-cout-cout. After, after COVID, maybe close to $10 million. But 10 million, from $2.80-juta population, And it's not,

than the number of the country, is kind of high. Now, like in Thailand or Malaysia, Singapore, maybe that's, that's from retail

also, and retail participation is quite high. But, not just retail down. If retail only, maybe

volatile, yeah, market, yeah, institutions also also, has to go. He wants to do retail,

the money, he's going to do it, he's more, he's more, model, from bankers' from bankers, from bankers, from across the savings account, that's all that's true. Yeah.

But if it's just 40% of PDB. That's, if I'm not sure I, it's not going to be making. Minimum, calculation casar, I see, 100%. If 100% ratio M2. Teraddle, Uang, Uang, RADD, B, money, redar, so, so, that, barang. Passar model, to, backal, push. Dynamisman more...

It's not even more than what we're taken up to take into Singapore or Malaysia. Now, that's what you're going to lead can exit or endawran-ulang. Absolutely. And I think we're going to be repartican the market model this and how, you know, from, you know, fromcuh, to saling to saling mendorong this too. And, the opportunity is very important. Because, gina, I'm going to passer-modal, yeah, as big a big idea, is about, Malaysia.

Singapore, has governmentia, but less attractive, actually, Because overall, overall, the total is about it's not, not big, bigot-a-bossar-a. Maybe in, now, each-mash-a-marked-old, Malaysia, or what-you-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-old. Yeah, if not, if not the biggest, is the one-the-legged, the region, you know, now.

Now, there's a casepment, for Indonesia. We could be bigger than Hong Kong. We could be bigger than Hong Kong. We should be bigger than Hong Kong. By sheer population. Yes. By sheer population. Yes.

Yes. And that opportunity is there. Yeah, if I'm going to say, back back to busa, too, yeah, if there's got to-sue. I'd say, but, yeah, to be sure if we're ready, neta. But, yeah, that's the idea-logy,

not yamble. Yeah. But argument inflation, too, it's all the last part of the artir, in the art of, yeah, we can't work, so, if you're gonna beck, yeah, Ibarat,

I'd say, I'm meaning to buy donut that, the price of 10% more than, rather than not have money to buy donuts. Bally. It's really. Yeah, if you know, if you're inflation-an or six-per-shaenan, but anyway, I don't want provocation

whatever, but, but, if you know, if there's, if there's, there's been a lot of people who tell, and stillsid, tech, tech winter. This, with the benefit of hindsight, lesson learned is what, what, what you can you can

that you can that's about that? can the reality is it's even among uh... the reality is, especially for the industry tech

yeah but but maybe that I think draw attention that that situation this not specific to Indonesia this is even

global situation so if if the problemasolating also, industry any other than cyclicality yeah, right,

and it's always there's a time to down. What's that's coming too, maybe

10, 12, 12th and the last are very low interest rate, very cheap capital

too, yeah, yeah, cheap capital doesn't mind risk, yeah, I'm,

like, risk, big. Uh, several with, with, inflation,

and, and, and, of course, interest So it's expensive. They're looking for more safe options, yeah, right? So, interest in technology, be correct. Interest technology be recurang.

Multipliator's also, what's going to beckon. That, that's one of what, why it's going to be. But, but the learning backwards, yeah, Maybe Maybe there's about about Maybe there's about Yeah, yeah,

Yeah, one of the first of we're just from industry tech in Saudi Asia in Indonesia, still very,

so much one, one, one-st-a-deged-old, yeah, so, so, so,

so, so, it's, it's, it's, it's, yeah, yeah,

we, we're, we're, also that's weight of expectation yeah. So, what's the way of expectation. So, and maybe everyone is racing to try to be the biggest and what not

that end up happening. And because capital, there's money that money that's much. Aftering capital, so, and it's one of the most of the problem that's the most of the best. And isiplein, I think, I think, this is the people of the same thing, yeah, because we're saying as well, investor-do-a-a-and-entrepreneur or

just, if we're going to be able to be entrepreneurs, you know, that crisis tech wintering is, maybe crisis first of their, as a leader also, yeah. 9-8, Air 2-Yang, maybe, must be school, maybe, yeah. 2009. global financial crisis, in Indonesia. And if they've got not in the decision making capacity.

Abis it to, period of growth. Eh, crisis, you know. Kna, then what do they do? And, and maybe if the discipline was there, more awareness, maybe there are some things

that can be avoided, but not all. Because, after after after after after after after after after after after after after after after people are. People are more disciplined now. People are more focused. People are looking at sustainable growth instead of just growth at all costs. And this is happening again, not just in Indonesia or South East Asia, this is a global challenge, global issue

so, so, so the question's, what we could have learned, yeah, maybe, maybe, maybe be able to maybe,

yeah. And, is it, in the kind of, the social, founder,

who can be able and not be able to, that's, evolution, the

people, the kind of kind of from, maybe, not only really

really only the anti-fragilitus. Ah, yeah. Uh, what, entrepreneurship is very difficult. And I think,

when times are good, uh, uh, more so little bit more than, uh, to look at how tough, resilient. Everybody's a hero. Yeah, exactly. Uh, yeah, can, uh, high tide tries all boats and chips, that only when the water comes down and you get to see, yeah, can who's sleeping naked. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. So, yeah. So,

so, and, and it's also, um, and it's also a And we've got to us as a personal for people yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what, yeah, and I think that's, it's, it's, it's, it's, you have to look at their actions, really, yeah, can,

apaca self-aware, what actions they do, how they, how they operate under pressure, yeah, can, and only after that, when we're, we're able to be able to get, too, oh, there's there's the same,

more than the same, we're not too much interaction, but but, wow, can handle very well these situations. There's also maybe more vocal, very well spoken, what I mean, oh, why, under pressure, they're more going, me,

so, so, yeah, business vizue, especially early stage, is business pattern recognition, actually, pattern recognition, and relationship business, yeah. But from the same is the pattern of the pattern that. We're trying to apply to our process too. Okay.

So, yeah, there's pattern of patterning. Is it perfect not really? What is it structural? What ambeda-can what can survive or success depending on who will give up? So, when it comes down to death, it's actually, yeah, G.

If you're going to bea-duehapability, it's baseline, hygiene. If you're able to. Maybe one, what, yeah, what, yeah, grade, yeah,

yeah, yeah, from, hustle, resilience, and, and, gigi-higian, and,

and, and, and, if, when, what, what, what,

what, if they're on people, like, people, people, or business, the people. One of the ones who's not-punate, is they don't have an off-switch. Off-button. Where, where, you know, one of the people,

yeah, gagged-secally, they don't want to be bangun. It's something that, what, um, that's that if they're like that, that, that if you know, that if you're that that fight, that spirit, that resilience, that they're, that, that, yeah, that's, yeah, the thing that's yeah, that we're letting us look sublid, that's, too, that's also, yeah, that's what, what you do when no one is watching, so, really, yeah, because, um, yeah, as well, yeah, as well,

we're, we're, we're not, we're interacting with, but, but we can't that every day. So, yeah, the other than the time the same thing, who know the problem yeah,

who know, who's the thing. And, integrityasiness is important, yeah, to make sure

that doing the right things, and then also, yeah, we trust them, and then they trust us, but also,

yeah, making sure that, okay, this will be, they will do the right thing. Whatever happens.

Because business risk is there. It's okay. But, but integrity is difficult. Wow. Wow.

I'm going to I'm going to beaeratara this is interesting so you've done in the last year ago lessons learned I'm going to I'm just put point

you know that collaboration or communication between quasi-government government with non-government or swastat that's important

how, how, how much in front of you, you know, you know, and how much better, more than

that's, can'ter be making sure for the important in Indonesia menatangan money,

with a scale that more than what, formulation yeah. Yeah, okay.

Muggen framing it too, yeah, but, of course, what in D'anantara

does, And of course, the pressure, and this is more big better. But maybe if I reflect also what we've got to do with what we're doing doing also, that's, maybe the key of the way, how to gain the trust to the trust. Because trust is very hard to earn. It's very easy to lose. And with pressure that's very big, with ambition that's big, like Danantara.

Andantara, if we can, well, we need to remember before, before we're able to make sure, yeah,

can, it's infancy, yeah, can, still, maybe, yeah, and in a lot of ways,

and an other way, that's also, yeah, in and of itself, yeah, so they're also still building a team

and, uh, the crucial part is, in this first crucial moment, is how to prioritizing,

but how do you, you build that trust do you build that trust? Once you're able to establish or build the trust or credibility, or give the benefit of the doubt, that what people should trust them, then then and only then, I think then you can do things, musty yeah. But, but you've been able to beaure many, yeah, 10, 15th time last time last year. So, mustyne there's a bit more than they're going to be. Because nascenty's the same.

Like what you've got alami 15 years ago, and if I'm And if you're the margin of error Yeah, more tipis. Jail more tipis, yeah. ...darder than you're in-swastat. Because if you're in-swasheda-in-lawed, you're not quazade the government.

But if at the government, that's margin-of-erroring, or even tipis, can? Now, that, if I'm in-cumrish-sha-in-sac-a-cumunic-a-cummitage-a-cumphemy-a-cumphi-a-cumphi-a-a-cumphi-susta. And, it's-swast-and, Many of the Dantara, this is kind of ex-swastat. Banyang, right? Yeah, right.

Now, this, don't even make sure they're yeah, ...engal what can be able to be. Yeah. ...emodal swastat. Yeah. If, if, from us, one of the most important, yeah, where, what, what,

is, what, has, determination success, that, yeah, from us. Maybe, if, if, if, the formulae it, that there's people, there producting what,

there potential market yeah, yeah, but, the end-uguguing the most of people probably, yeah, because this business is even

it comes down to people yeah, yeah, and I think people in multiple layers, yeah, one, your own people, yeah, you have to have the right people

and I'm, I, I'm, I'm, maybe, uh, And inantara Wow, wow, they're the best people, yeah,

and from all right I think that's the right move for you. Once you have that, then you can identify, you can maybe look at, oh,

uh, who they're gonna partneran, want JV, more, yeah, can't, because, because, because,

because, because, because, again, scope is much bigger. Because they're, also will play public realm, public public wealth, maybe,

they'll play on the private side. In private side, put, yeah, with size that's great, yeah, industry, industry strategist, and it's, and it's and it's brought, or maybe, maybe, Maldi, or partnership,

or what, with global players and capital, yeah. So, maybe, but if, if, if, back to formulae, I think,

people, yeah, maybe. But, but, But now, right now, right now, right now, talenta, talenta Indonesia, who's in the land, or even though,

to want to be in evenedin Indonesia, that's in the world this, this is almost like the old, when,

venture, business just began in Indonesia. FOMO's, it's not but what's but what is

to alhiked, don't even FOMO talk. If it's FOMO. Fear of messing up is that's up is high-hmm. Yeah, right. Yeah, this is the thing, this is the hero-historiancy-in-you-a-fragilitaries not

like the inginked. This is that maybe must be tuang-can or to stintic in the DNA-in-ant-a-tare. Because margin of error-in-in-in-a-gat-a-gat. And I think, kind of, the challenge is with that, the weight of the expectation, maybe, yeah. Because the expectation is a lot. Maybe, back again,

making sure, what not is there too. Because with that, this, maybe, maybe, people think, maybe making shortcut, doing things,

yeah, can, looking good, yeah, I think, other than, maybe Asian culture, yeah, looking good is very important,

yeah, but if it's at all cost, maybe, it's a lot of cost, maybe, yeah. So, so,

and execution capability yeah, how to make sure the right people, Because if there's people who are better better, there's people who are people. Ideally, you get both, yeah, right? But if I'm going to get both, yeah.

But I'm going to be able to be able to be able to beintraxecution than the pintar-domewonged, yeah. So, but with the name of the manusia, with many things, sometimes, that we're still in filter, that's more than we're more than what people. Yeah, can. So, yeah, that's how much we'll filter it,

that's one of the thing. Like that's more proactive. Yeah, yeah, yeah, than they're more than to be able to do you. Absolutely. Yeah? Absolutely. Don't even if people who's jaguar, in uton or what, that's not get to meet. And I think one benefit that they'll have versus like we're,

maybe better than this. Because if the cipher, it's, a lot of our founders, or what, it's more than the more than the so much more than the record so that's not even though so we're just judge the character or we also much bad on the person but with size of their investment

industry that they're going to make sure or what you're going to be sure and be a lot of people who are sure and beware of their own. Yeah. Yeah, that must be able to track record yeah. So hopefully that helps

also manage their risk, that's, that's back again. And, yeah, that's back again, but pintar-nomomonged, and can be able to. This is, you know, if we're going to be able to be it, this, can'tal with the contenting of mangan,

the energy. There's many of the other. But, if, if I'm not the other, is a whole that kind of can't be able to be a bit of it. And this, This is the end-un-unctingat can't not only the

the other than the productivity, but it's not only productivity, or the productivity. Now, this, productivity, this, this,

it's very correlations with the power of technology. Yes. How much acusisi merawat,

mupuk innovation technology so, so it's can narrations, The narration is the narrative is kind of narration fix-income. We can't buyer poeco and bunga.

But what's not the narrative is narracy equity story. Equity-story is kental with how we can't how we can't make productivity. Now, I if I look, productivity, marginal, we're purchasing power parity basis, in 10-year, only $25,000, per-one, per-to-one. And it's It's probably

It's gothousis It's got And maybe one of One of the gaitingtir-lemaguer Yeah Which with scale It's Danantara

Yeah, yeah Yeah, right Right, right Right, right Right, right Right, right Right, right, Right, right,

And, right, But I'm not, because of course, why I've learned, like, because of course, because I've learned, like, people always will be able to eat, you know, right? And, yeah, and, that, if, if, if, if,

learn, bigang other, maybe, can't be changed it with, you know, if it's all, but, yeah, back on the Pankan, and ketan energy,

it is, also, to be the lastar, yeah, Apalaglia in the, where the world today is quite volatile that's up. If you're going to mrs. Of course, technology is not the solution to everything.

But that's a tool. Because technology is the great equalizer also. With technology, you can do things that you wouldn't be able to do and it's the multiplier. Indonesia, Kulaw, 2, about 20 jrata

people. If we want to do that manual, you won't catch up. We'll not get there, ma'am. So, we need technology. But we need technology, we need innovation, we need it done in the right way, so it's making making

productivity. So, innovation that's that's a lot of productivity. And with it, we can't be able to And today, the day, the technology has become cheaper,

the access to technology is also available, yeah, can. So, uh, what, has been very much, now, apaca, um, and there's one one instance or institution that

is to enderung this too, yeah, can. Now, now, now, now, andtara, uh, approach that is, how they're just as a ecosystem. Because they should be the catalyst.

But, or the grouponging in, yeah, in the depot. But, but what they're trying to work too, with this. Because, if not, fighting alone is very challenging. Yeah, and of course,

I think, and how they're also and how they're also and make-divacan technology with top. It's very important. Yeah, I'monged psalagin, like

like, brass. It's ragen, the productivity, the productivity, um, to be able to hectare. In Thailand, the gap is

very big. Yeah, but I'm going about it. Yeah, I'm going to be back per-one per-tour-tour-tour-tour-t

-n-o-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh. In Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, 70-kilk, per-worn. It, that, to, to, diabetes.

Yeah. Nambung to all-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-an, So if we can't even if we can't impottinged too, then we're doing which is a good, yeah.

Protein or what, yeah. And then, productivity that we can from 5.5 to 2,000 to 2,000 to 1,000 to 1,000 to 1,000 to 1,000 to 1, to 1,000 to 1,000 we can be exporter. Um,

breast, maybe, 30 to 40,000, 10,000 ton per time. If it's going to rungingotivitititize from 5. ton per hectare to 2nd per hectare to 14. It's only application of technological wear with all. Yeah, if I'm going to be able to be able to energy.

But I'm going to ask about AI. AI is a.I. This ising-isicant this ising-a-narrasicant as something that's-kind-and-mulia to make-en-cats-smuany. But, many who

not-bran-bearing-a-maw-structural about the way, that's-dye-dye-anergy. If we're going to use Gemini, Grog, or GATT, GAPT, the pengu-an-energently about the energy-in-5-0-50-cali,

Dibankan simple search in Google. Apalagy, platform for AI image generation, image. That's just 10,000 to 50,000 times, dibeninked simple search

in Google. We're electrification still in Asia, Tengara. Indonesia, 1,300 kilowattour hour per person. The most modern is in Asia,

Dengara, Brunei and Singapore, the same with America. But, the other, is still bontot. Now, I'm looking

modernitas. that threshold 6,000 kilowatt hour that's before we're rebase our own to the best thing for the keypentinkan AI to 6,000 that we need to

1 terawatt for Asia Tengarra. That's, it's kind of 2 to 3 trillion dollars realisman where, there's, there's panang? AI is, okay,

Maybe, maybe, maybe AI is what's been around, yeah, can't, yeah, can't be around for a very long time, too, can, maybe. Maybe,

and if we're talking about AI today, the moment that, maybe, what, that, Q3, on October 2002, launch yeah,

yeah, that's generative AI, yeah, where, okay, this is the next phase too, where people want to make

that's again. From, From the tip it's the tip of the tip of course, that day is the tip of course, but one of the things with the advancement also, as AI bergardeerogne too, there's another moment, November 2004, deep-sick moment, where, it's actually, the requirement for the requirement to do the compute or what not, but not less but with a lot less,

but I think that's a very good moment that's about, you know what, and that graph, if you look at the past three, four years, has come down significantly and I believe with technology, it's actually will come down more. Will it come down fast enough

so that the day that we need to puttookan this, so, yeah, can. I think there's a minimum, too, to power the GPU chips and around the compute and what I'm, so, so the question for how to power this, yeah, how to do this also, yeah, can. If you're getting along, we're

maybe that's something very structural also, and I think has to be job, too, maybe, and we're also, we need, really, something that's something that's really, yeah, can. So, energy consumption on AI, it's

only one dimension, actually, but but but maybe yeah, even though, even from the way AI is that can be made a lot of

fake, wow, now, this is hard so. In other, it's a productivity tool,

yeah, if people are people who are people who are the challenge is and I think maybe Indonesia still have some time

but because because labor cost versus this yeah just, yeah, role and jobs, and if, and if not start to educate, how people use AI, work with AI, it's at some point,

it's a lot of issue. Maybe we need, maybe we know I think, the government from ComDigi or not, there's a meman to make sure to make a seta-jalan, yeah, roadmap for AI, yeah. This, this, really, yeah. And if, and if, and if back again from the side of day, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, but, but, but, I think, I think, energy is a big problem, but there is a solution. Now, today, of course, this is wishful thinking, maybe, yeah, right?

small reactors and what not. Maybe we're ready for that, maybe not. Maybe in one, yeah, can. One of one of course, we're still in the world. We're doing one that's the most of the world. Ween, too,

mini-hydro. But if, if, if, Ketching up with that gap, SMRs. SMR. Yeah, not. SMRs is probably the future.

Today, is it ready? Some countries or some companies have set, maybe it's already, but maybe not ready yet for Indonesia. But in the next five years or so, I think, I think, maybe it's just like that. SMRs, has been used, not only,

do wachanagan, for data center and scala. But modularization, it's only with scale 10-20 megawatt. Yes. I'm thinking, Terra, this is here. Yes, yes, yes.

Yeah, right? This is, this. This is, this. not in Papua, but in Laos, Myanmar, Cambodia to be it's got to make up them allanization. And,

to be able to get modernization that minimum has 6,000. So we're, we're, we're, we're going to to beck tembock, because

capacity our to make upangue data, that's very incrementalist. And, and, yeah, Indonesia just, the day it's about 90,000 megawatt

we can't even 5,000 per time. To make 5,000 kilowatt-hour hour per-oram, we need to be able to be able to but if 3,000 to 5,000 to be 60 to 120-town. And we're going to neutrality carbon in in 2050 or 2006. This not be reconciliasi

this, this 60 to 120-town, this is 20-an-tawn, 25 years. Now, yeah, the denominator, not want, it's been able to be able So,

minimum 15,000 to beaute to beauchur, sook, succour, like, the energy, like,

the energy, like, or nuclear, or what? Yeah. But I'm to think that because it's

because it be resished and more than than before before before. Yeah. And, okay, if we're set up with thesis it,

full-us-ness. Yeah. This, for Indonesia, we have to build 400,000 megawatt, for the electrification it to

make up to 6,000 kilowatt. Yeah. It's $1. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, back again to

topic our time we, investasas. Yeah. Now, Maybe, this, this, how we can't be able to be itiner. Yeah, can, in investation, so if we're going to investation, it's, if, if in breakdown, there's a bit more piece of it.

There's compute, there are algorithmic. There's data. There's three piece, actually. If you're going to be skam competitive in the bag of compute, it's like, very unlikely. Why? Capax that's that it's important, it's very much. Alibaba

the next three years on AI alone backal spend 380 billion yuan the Google's of the world the Microsoft spending 6,200 billion annually

if we're If we're If we're compete And the money And the money I don't think it will happen

But But with with the technology Compute The requirement for energy requirement for cost

is coming down So eventually it will maybe normalize. Algorithma. Algorithm, same too. Today, one AI engineer, wow, that's very much it's like, right, right. Sign on bonus. Sign on business, yeah. Meta, barredge, said, from open AI, from open AI,

from open-data, $100,000, you know, And then, that's worth of the money money that's just for the money basketball, that's very big. Today, and I think it's not uncommon

if the, uh, uh, uh, uh, for the engineers a million dollars, you know, because,

yeah, they're making a potential that's big, the, the race is so tight, yeah, so tight, yeah,

so, so, yeah, where we can't be playing and the money to the data layer, actually,

the end, the end, uh, yeah, that's often, also after local right. So, the data layer

is a particular, application layer actually, consumer, enterprise, and, because AI is there foundational model,

the large language, but, the makegaining and the partial need especially, if it's really good. There,

a lot of model that very, very generic, but also good, but if you've got to be specific, then you have to

train it in a specific way. So if I think we think we don't mind the layer yeah, or we're going to investasies, we want to make GPUs like Nvidia, today I think it's not the right path, you know, right? If we're going to foundational model,

yeah, we work just with what's the same thing about. And model is different, better better. Okay, approach is different, in the world barat and the world timur, yeah. In the world barat, they're more close-ended, close-loop, yeah. But China again, Alibabaabah, Alibaba, have Q1 and other, open source for them. So we can do that.

I'm saying. I think of philosophy, or ideology, more than open source. Less profit or not for profit. This, this resonate, not only with the country bebeang in Asia, but if, if I'm notarer, we have to be able to be able to $8.4% of planet this,

the capital's that's about $13,000 that's the same-a-dollar that's being called. It's more than, but I'm not not sure they're not even

can't with the magnitude that's been iniquing by the global south because what now what we're seeing what we're looking

is unnecessary technological bifurcation Yeah, right, right, And then, anytime you hear bifurcation, or bifurcasi, it's inflationary. Yeah, right?

Because this, we're not gnaissance. Yeah, we're going to make adapter. So, this, this, if this is nothergiann't, yeah, if it's, you know, it's more biopiccan. Now, it's moreugicant for the global south or the negara, negamang.

How much? Yeah, although, of course, yeah, there's tension, like, uh, uh, U.S., China yeah, and not just in technology, yeah, but across economy and whatnot, dampacne much, much, yeah, the cost to do parallel supply chain and other things too, but if you're not ideal, yeah, right? Because instead of complementing, malam, yeah, competing. Although, yeah, although, uh, maybe, um, um, um, um, um, maybe, um, um, um, the technology that's a bitetting,

is actually not a bad thing, so. So, like, what's going on in the U.S. and China, China was playing catch-up for the longest time, but U.S. also began to rest threatened. Aftering, they're blocked two things. Huawei, it's blocked, like that. Cheap, that's just.

But I think, you know, Chinese people are very resilient too, yeah. Ayrreliarer, earlieria, innovation they accelerate. Yeah, they're not a resilient. They're anti-fragilegileged. they accelerate so much, where, right, actually, today, if you know,

China, if you're doing that, maybe 10 years, 15 years, definitely not, yeah, can't, maybe a year, maybe so, yeah, and in some ways, yeah, can't, if, you know, and in some ways, yeah, if, you know what, also, you know, other than the, yeah, very, what, small nanometer, what, sameacters, or what, that, you're there, they're the factory of the world yeah, right? There's a, before, they've been a.I show in Shanghai recently, yeah, can.

One of my friends just went. They have everything. They have the, they have the, end-to-end, the hardware, the in and stuff. That approach to open source

is very crucial evener also, especially for developing countries like Indonesia, where this, this, this, maybe, ideology, philosophy

because, open AI, it's, why the AI, non-profit, and then, but then, but, but, but, the core of their product, it's now, it's true.

This is. It's already. If it's. If he's gone, because he's out from. Because he's out of it. Yeah, who modality, then he's out,

then bed-pandang, better ideology. Yeah, absolutely. And for China, deep-seek and not. So, modeling, is collaboration, yeah, can open-source, you open-source.

you build this together, and you make your money, not just from the base, you make it from value-added things. That's, I think, is something that resonates well with our model and... The country bebeungung. Yeah. Yeah. I see, this, this, this, this, this is. This is a hypothesis, but Asia-Tengara,

which, majoritess is still, is a good geopolitic in fact that's about people's more than the Hong Kongok as technological capital allocator but we can't mongkiri

existensi barat we have to look at them as economic capital allocator because the money is there the money is in the US

the bradarer the money is in the US the money around concho conchonion this, in the middle, in the middle of the world 140 trillion dollars

so we need to be smart mened people need to technology you have to be able to for fulus because they're not necessarily

zero to one yet but one to the next digit yeah more yeah better I'm

better than I'm buy Opo than I'm buy iPhone And the $1per 5. And photoing is more than iPhone. Now, that if I was in Laos, GDP per capita is just $2,000, not even I buy iPhone.

Not even if I'm going to buy iPhone. Yeah, right. In fact, yeah, maybe I'll buy iPhone. Yeah, maybe I'll buy Opo. Now, that, it's a can't be geopolitic. So, I'm looking at the geopolitic, 50 to 100 years to the past, we have to medique Tiongok and Barat

as technological, technological, and economic capital allocators, respectively. And the key for Indonesia is, and maybe aligned with our international policy also, we don't have to choose one, really, right? Because, can, we mean, stance we in general,

you know, can, in general, you know, in general, yeah, but, maybe natural with acal, sehat. Where money, capital market, was hard, was hard. For sure, yeah, can't. And, juer, technology,

but I think, Mesaa does certain things that they're more advanced, but that approach or that philosophy is more than what, in Indonesia. Where, if you're saying, yeah, I'm saying,

with open source, yeah, with this, too fast, yeah, like, today, what, Opo, VFO, transient, what, product's, though, though, if you're about it's about it's iPhone, yeah, right?

So, better than when iPhone launch 2009, 7, yeah, where when, wow, yeah, so, yeah, so, yeah, so it's not, yeah, so it's not a lot. But, yeah, but, yeah, but if, yeah, it's a way way The other's big back. China has been able to move from a technology doctor, to a technology champion, absolutely. Exactly.

They're zero to one. Yeah. And I would argue in some sectors they're already there, fintech, by necessity, yeah, can. America, the system, I don't know if they still do,

when I was there, to use, text, that, like, and everyone's already credit card. So I think the need for, like stored value wallet

but if you know that China Alipay private pay yeah can pay uh... before you're doing payer now,

pack tap with the hand with the mucca now and I think in some sectors I would actually already argue

to that point that not only good from 1 to 10 1 200 some are starting to be 0 to 1 and and more and more

and more up so so so the The more thanaric is, of course, back again, back. We're not going to be able to run. US is the source of the, it's the World's Bank. So, but if it's, but if it's, but if it's, but if it's, but what not.

I think there's a lot to be learned and to do with the Chinese. Maybe test litmuse's ultimate is, Maybe we can't beapeutur with technology but also about it Yeah, right? A bit paradoxical

Yeah, but it has to formulasical And it's meripakal And it's a geopolitical reality That has been Because I, I'm I'm in fact that I'm with scale

700 million million dollars PDB in Asia-we. we're not perplexed we're not perplexed we can't be able to move we can't beur-a-un to-any-a-thousand-a-thousand-a-thousand-a-thousand-a-thousand-a-thousand-a-a-thus.

And that, if, I mean, I don't know-shaeusage-a-cou-politic in-n-n-n-a-cala, or-lac-a-cala, yeah. in Asia-and-hara. And people look at least that's up technologically. Because they're still every time

$4.5 million product stamp. America is just hundred-a-bush. Mucka. India, $2.5. Yeah, yeah, Indonesia has bullet.

Reproduction product stem with a number of minimum $1.00 a year. Dibanding only $250,000. I was in in Shanghai. months ago GP Morgan China conference. And one thing that

Jimmy Diamond said, so I find interesting, they've been been in China for decades or not. What is the competitive edge of their kind of? It's simple, it's not just the road talent, I think. If you give them enough time, they will outwork anyone. I think that that tenacity of work,

that it's something we can learn and we can do because, yeah, yeah, yeah, from, you know, when, yeah, if you're going to beijing, sepeda, yeah. Mobile, many, way, too, but they allowed them to come in, but transfer of knowledge, transfer of this, yeah.

Day, brand asing, almost not there, some electric vehicle, brand local, so. There's 99 brand. Yeah, it's amazing, yeah. I was just there three days ago. Right?

It's amazing. And I think, I think that... Yeah, man, yeah, man, Yeah, of course, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, and, and, and the quality of the cars they produce locally, too, it's got, it's catching up, yeah, maybe not exactly the same, like, maybe, there's, there's, but, but, it's, it's, it's, it's, and that, again, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, ability to outwork just about anyone, That's something that maybe

that's something that's maybe that's interesting or do implementations Yeah, if I'm think I'm petting from this, how we're about we're about stem

for the penning stem with scale that's more than the second how we're how we've got we've got ethica

of work yeah yeah yeah yeah, right yeah, right 47. If you know, yeah, yeah, I'm not 996.

Yeah, yeah, I, I think, like, in America, to, as a lot of public in Wall Street, that, that, work 120-jamb per-mingue, that... Not uncommon. Not uncommon.

Yeah, right. And, buddhahy like that, yeah, maybe we're not peruse extreme, that. But, I think, I think of it. If I'm not, it's not much of, If we want to happen to happen Andopakable,

is it to be it's about with the energy, ketanan, whatever. But, but the last I'm going to get

statistics or data that's a bit important. We're not being can't be able to becerita. We have important to

execute, but we're going to makeexecution. Storytellers. Book that's republication about Asia

Tengara It's just $375,000. Bukuuque,000 to $140,000,000. It's just 0.26%. Existency book who's menarasical Asia-Tengara. Not even 1%. No.2%. Sedgant population our 7,000,

that's, kind of, 9% of population of the population the universe, it's impetus, not to mention. Majority of 375,000 that's narrasically under non-as-sultization. It's barraiseries

about we can condo-documentation, and it's can't be able to topic of our our own we're very structural and the

and if back to the personal I, I'm like the system the the way, I'm not, I'm not the first time

to America also, yeah, can beasas if you, yeah, of course, good in some ways in this, too, just, I'm not too,

to speak up my mind, that, like, like, like, and then, and then, and then, I'm not,

yeah, from America or out, that, like, yeah, yeah, India, or where,

yeah, kind of, like, when, I'm not, yeah, and I'm not, yeah, and,

how's wrong, I'm not. I don't know if it's a culture, or part of this too, because I'm, I think, yeah, it's a lot of, like, very bad, and I think, after a while, maybe, oh, I'm sure, I'm not really about this, I'm just this, and then, and, and, and, if we're not about bicarer,

not there, noxia, yeah, can't, And then, after, the knowledge is to content in our own to continue. So, that skill to be able to tell stories, narrate, and whatnot, is something that's something that's important. It has to beajureka. Has to beajureka. Yeah. And do you know, it's important.

How we're medayakhan, how things like that, like, in a country, in a place, in beda, in cafe, or in institution social, That's about it's about it's about it's aboutabunded And then kind of You know, people are you In fact that they're not too far as far as far as Opinic

Yeah Tampa put upta Yeah Yeah Yeah It's more than Yeah Yeah

Yeah You You Yeah It's That's judgment Yeah Before that they're

You're Yeah That's open to But although, he's not-oh, I'm just a mister Mr. or Miss Universe or what, that's right? Yeah, yeah.

And, and, maybe the problem is, because today, yeah, with medium that is, social media, and, and, yeah, to be comment,

it's very, so, so, without editorialization. Tant editorialization. Yeah, and, and, uh,

yeah, it's, maybe back to education too, yeah, where, It's not even right If you know, if you're like, okay,

opinion is, of course, yeah, but also, yeah, not a cal-sehat, too, yeah, what is it. Yes, is, long as much-eighthundred-a-coma,,,, up the panellation of S-Qa-a-old. I'm not even I'm sure

I'm sure that's actually innovation technology it's chay to make sure this. This is if I see

if I'm coefficient ratio that that's just this is this is this is manifestisican

consangangue that is the end up that, the kind of and even centralitalism and the world

more than in the quarter in the country more than in the area in America from 45 to 73 this is by the Darren Asmoglu from MIT

Power and Progress that's median income in America Sericat 45 to 73 and naikin that's two and a half percent

but after 7.3 of the internet and everything that's about per time. that's what's what innovation technology not too much more

the ecoree with shared prosperity internet was the great and ultimate democratizer of information but it didn't become the democratizer of ideas much less economic capital

now this not even AI. It's more elitization that's like that's there's a goodlysmut. Bucanity, not evening

consularing because of dollars a year, just, yeah, that's just, yeah, that's just that. And they're,

close source for profit. If you Lian Wenfeng, she, in deep seek, he's more, he's more people I'm in Africa. I'm open-sourcing just.

That's, That's not really Spadnik moment that, if I'm sure if I'm really the most important, yeah, you know, how to make that, that is prioritization and focus on maybe technology.

So, if technology is also purposeful and deliberate, maybe. Mactutely, this is, if it's going to Mimpy, you know, South East Asia or Indonesia has a tech ecosystem,

want to be what, two, decades, the time. Today, Ibarre Cina, about 20 years ago but technology adopters dolemen are we're doing, we're doing,

sometimes very broad comments, yeah, we're, we're going to be, uh, technology innovator champions too, yeah, but in the bidang what, that's really,

that's maybe that we're looking if we want to achieve success. Because if we want to be everything to everyone too everyone also, yeah.

I think the chance of failure quite big, yeah, We can't go to us. Agriculture, maritime, right of time. Taddy, we talked about the power of the power of Pangan, why we use technology? Why not we apply things, yeah, can't we produce here

also, so yeah, yielding the better, research in there, doing technology in there. Palm oil, even, something that we do a lot, too, right? So maybe if we can make sure that, we should be purposeful and deliberate. Okay, we know, yeah, can. China is excellent factory of the world, manufacturing, you know, right? We have also manufactured.

There are things that maybe very difficult to compete with them. But rather than focus our efforts in there, we focus on things that Indonesia is unique. Indonesia is unique in so many ways. We have young population, large, young population. large young population, digitally native, how do we do? Our culture, our buddaya,

Binaika Tungalika, unity in diversity we're, we're, very blessed. Paro, paro dukewarmia too, yeah, can? A lot of the world's force is in here. We don't have winter, actually, there's, really, there's winter, there's, there's winter, yeah? So, how do we use that?

And I think how to make, that that's what? purpose is what? And I think there's one maybe he's like to be like

on parisive as Africa if you want to go fast you go alone if you're going to go far you go together how do we as a nation

we go far together and but putting that in the right purpose with their resources maybe great

This is a digress but if you mentioned clapasawit but one of the gifts are being situated in the catatulti's Tiwa is mangrove mangrove in Indonesia

is 22% from the world if if in Asia Tengara we can be atas what that's

what is that we're notem again that's up that's that's 10 juteu-hectar that's sequestration carbon yeah

10 giga ton and emissing carbon per time to 40 giga so, asia Tenggare can be per cent to be sure 25% that's with nanem

mangrove that simple and it's like a fishery that's very correlates with and the power erosy, be correlates with baku

and mangrove it's very unique, yeah, that, with density and the capability to capture carbon it's very bigasas. Sequestration. Sequestration that's a lot of carbon.

Carbone, it's, one gigatone, it's 1,000 hectare. So, if we'd have to 10,000, hectare, yeah, maybe Indonesia can't 5 million, if I'maugh, 5 million, that's 10 gigatone carbon that can be sequestration

every year. Maybe, I'm not being a lot of but, but it's one area again, you know, renewable, climate, or with challenge

that we're having challenge that we're in debt. Top. Bissueger. It's a lot. But with execution. With execution. We can be dungent

and be per-peran-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-lion. I'm nothamehruhs. This ishanging fruit with mangrove just. Absolutely. Because, that's what, is the thing. It's not a lot of,

the landhner, it's not a lot. Singapore, want to be able to mangrove in the sound no, no, not much. Right,

but, but, but, this is one topic that, I think I'm really, where we can be leader

in here with execution and with the right people who cares and passionate about that, willing to execute and willing to tell the story.

Yeah. And now that technology, to take down mangrove, it's tanked to beaubed. Yeah. Dude. It's productivity can be able to puttipathe than if we're using tarot,

nanem one per one. I mean, it's still must be muliakan. Yeah. Which is technology for increasing productivity again, yeah. Yeah.

There is a person last Roderick? I think, I think I think maybe, maybe entrepreneur or

this also because industry I'm doing venture capital yeah what should you do again? What should you do?

Again, Indonesia is population is much, I guess question is what can you do now for the country

So I'ma I'ma back to back to Stanford University I'll lose to 2005 commencement speaker's Steve Jobs That was the last speech before he died

Yes So I was there I was there at that I was there at the and I think it's something that resonates very well with me and I think it's still relevant today The title of his

speech was stay hungry and stay foolish and he quoted three things. a lot. soal. you can only connect the dots looking backwards, yeah. Yeah, right. So, sometimes, you're going to be able to what,

you don't know, but, yeah, it's the way. Kedua about being passionate or love what you do, because if you're passionate and you love what you do, and even after he got fired from Apple the first time around,

he still finds passion in what he does. He started the next Pixar, back again. And the three, I guess, I guess, yeah, yeah, that's fear of death. He was diagnosed already with pancreatic cancer quite late stage. But even then, I think, yeah, he was given at least some more time after that. But, yeah, yeah, life that's, yeah, it's been banishment, too, yeah. So, yeah.

So, if, if, even, we're not using that, well, what's, what I mean? What, is, what, is, what, is, stay hungry, stay foolish, that, yeah, for the stay hungry it's the people people get to knowledge that's I think you always have to learn

you always have to do things so I think the message should be people should always be willing to learn not there and penetawance it only helps us

the two stay foolish what I mean what what is what is what is what you should take risk you should be willing to take risk

because the biggest risk is not trying. you have to be able to take risk. If you want to make a change, if you want to disrupt something, you have to take risk. So if you equip yourself with the right knowledge and you do the right things and you take risk, yeah, why not?

Uh, uh, the goal is what onus? Indonesia sovereignty, the deolaten Indonesia. Hey, we talk about Indonesia, mas 2004-5. Yeah. Double, achievable.

But yeah, yeah, we have to start with all of us, maybe, yeah, of course. The ultimate. Yeah, it's the, yeah, of course. So, yeah, I've got to hear in Pidato, that's, one quick anecdote a lot. I was able to convert one friend. It's been also in podcast, yeah, Bapa. So, when I was in, so I was there,

there's time I, I'm in-olding my friend's, I'd endang too, to the graduation. He's he's been to hearin'isle that. Then he became an entrepreneur in Indonesia and he said, wow, thankful me, that it was,

it was done. This, Aldi, Harryopoto. Which, what, which, I think,

even though it was just one person, and then hopefully the key is finding the right scale to get more people to do things, and then, yeah, it's, make a difference. And,

and we have to the right. Multipliers. Yes. Yeah. Yes. The right multiplayer, yeah.

Right. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. The right. Education. Yeah.

Right. The right. Technology. Yeah. Thanks, Rob. Thank you. Thank you. Tumant.

That's, Roderick, Purwana. From East Ventures. Thank you. Thank you.