Endgame with Gita Wirjawan - Romo Magnis: Bangsa yang Utuh, Bangsa yang Bijaksana

Episode Date: December 23, 2022

Bagi Prof. Dr. Franz Magnis Suseno, S.J., sejatinya keadilan tidak mengenal ideologi. Pastor Jesuit, filsuf, dan profesor emeritus Sekolah Tinggi Filsafat Driyarkara tersebut berbagi pemikirannya tentang demokrasi dan media sosial, serta tiga tantangan besar masa depan Indonesia dan dunia yang dapat dijawab oleh esensi nilai Pancasila.  #Endgame #GitaWirjawan #RomoMagnis -------------------------  Pre-Order merchandise resmi Endgame: https://wa.me/628119182045 Berminat menjadi pemimpin visioner berikutnya? Hubungi SGPP Indonesia di: admissions.sgpp.ac.id [e-mail] https://wa.me/628111522504 Playlist episode "Endgame" lainnya: https://endgame.id/season2 https://endgame.id/season1 https://endgame.id/thetake Kunjungi dan subscribe:  @SGPPIndonesia   @VisinemaPictures 

The education has left from model that I think is a bottle of bottle ofosong. We need to be able to-a-tahua-tahua that's not-a-toward that has been taught-tut-tut-tut. Because that, Pancasilla, which I think, is very good, also important as a basis of sik-sik-sip-cap-up, and it's-pac-pac-pac-a-mib-mill. Hello, Taman, today we're a come to

Frans Magnus Suseno or Romo Magnus, a person philosoph that's about with school philosophy, Dria Kariha.

Romo, thank you very, Bisa, D'Harek. Thank you. Thank you. I'm going to hear the story

Romo. Romo, Rumsia, wasia, was about 86 years, tibed in Indonesia,

before I'm life in the same how much can't get into Indonesia it's so that's much

to be used I'm in Maudu Yiswit is one one the one of Catholic

work in the world and I am I was in German

now Yiswit German that was Dement to to make to

to missionaries to Indonesia ganskantik Yiswit Belanda that because alasan political didn't

get to get visa. Lalsu there are some young to Indonesia to Java

menolis full of smanat I'm actually didn't be big to

but with the with meekian that if I'm going I'm going to Indonesia. One of the other, maybe even though, but

I'm going to be a lot of a lot of course. I'm going to I'm going to get to Ryezvitt, in 2005. I've lost, abitur, Udian-A. German. In fact that's in 527, I've got to bea student in fact that's about Michigan.

The same thing that, I quote of our company, which namadia Ostakademi, Academy Timur, who emperlagerie communism. So there are professor who mimipen it. And some of us with ushvit muda, maybe 20 people, I'm not sure, why we've learned communism.

Because we have principle, we have to know how to love and beckykech. We have communism. We have hummed communism as a big of the time the best of the church catholic and so betulner

also, also, I have to know. Now, I'm always learning Marxist Marxism, I've been about Marxism, and I'm also Basis Russian,

now I've got lost. In 2009, I think, in Germany, I think in German there's a

Romo-Jeswit that really be acuie as aqueath Marxism, not need to talk again. I'm going to

I've got to Indonesia there's partai communist quite, that we allege Roma, we're doing agamancement serious. I think, maybe for the Geregia Indonesia is a good if they're

people who a little bit about theory communism. That's a motivation I'm to give to Indonesia.

Permitaan that decouulkan to Indonesia and never been I'm not so much. Outerbishop. Then, then we're trying to be in Indonesia, how process

the process of the same people? I'm, we're two, the two, the people, five people German. We, we, to Kyrrissonto,

it's in Kuhnara in Javah, where there's a little school of Baja with Romo Belanda, Romo Bakr. We've gothahed Javier.

Because there's a goodfahed-Jewit Indonesia, Yeshwit, Indonesia. If you've got to know, BASA Indonesia, I'll bea laxed Baja Baza Jawa. But if you know, if you're parson, therepaksa to learn Baja BASA Indonesia. I'm not sure I'm glad. I wasa 1sternal, first of Jalya, maybe 14-pulans the same of the same

Indonesia in there. That's why I'm going to two years to Jakarta, to Colise Canisius, injana, in front of, and so many ball, and so many.

Then, study philosophy, theology in Jokyakarta, four that's I'm in time I'm in five I'm six to be

I'm six and I'm sorry because I'm getting because of people get good on Indonesia

so they're being a hearty that I'm in Indonesia not quite I'm going to get

but I'm Bukhahe or much that I'm Jlasin the Perbeda

process Bazaa Dibandingan process of the same Indonesia in context the impact the way the way.

Well, I'm, I'm sure, I'm using using all the energy for BASA Jawa.

Yeah. Basa Jawa is complex not only because there gungu Kromo

Kromo-Ingil that's got to beaqq, can't be able to get-a-gna-loukkwkwkwkwkwkwe-Meng-i. It's not-bis-kid, tindapundi, but we're, but I, I'm at least-gras, I'm a structure Dawa,

very different from the structure German. And I'm using method of learning, which turned out of

good, learn with not not make hafalking kata, but the, kalimat

that's used, the use, if, the, if it's always, 20 times with with the same,

long, long. I'm sure about I'm not much maju, I'm not much. And, be able to learn

and just, belaj and just, you know, and I'm going from there's been from the truongan and medadak,

he's been being done long-lancar, buttut. But, but, the word of Jawa, I come to make sure that.

That's the same thing. I was three-bun-boro, in Kulon-Proko, Paroki, that's there, only there are people Jawa, only on the U-Sawa, on-bash-Jawa. At least, I'm there, I'm maddering something that's interesting, yeah.

The place that's the moro. I often said, boho, boho. Anna-an-an-a-naq said, Bo-ho. I'm going to sadar, the German, the people, the people are

there, yeah, that's, and how do you, how to be able to er, I'm going to be able to know erlidah. I've got to

Erlidah. When I'm back to Girozanto, I got backer that. He has puto sandiwara from Blanda. The person Sandiwara, there has to bemoasay Erlida. So there's latian, I've had latian. I've had been a three-bulon.

Latian is, miscellany can'tic can't kata R with D. Like bedee, bedee, beda, beda, beda, beda, beda, beda. If I'd go to toilet, I'd say, reddy, reddy, reddy, reddy, kada, kada. They'd kada, they'd be able to be. Too, too much. or what? I was just a third month.

There's a R. Lidah out of the word I'd say, you're back. Language. Because German also I've got to

back in the this. This is a lot of small in being a person from Indonesia, a Javan.

BASA, LASA, Lola, but it's hard. and from the stuptu canimata if you know,

if you know, it's just the same. Perbidia, Romo, is, very way, about philosophy.

Philosophat Jawa, the, intinia, the bedan how, see, with the

philosophy, the other, you. It's not very It's very because there there's a principle

of the world and philosophat and philosophat Timur philosophy that more than more than in India

in China maybe in Japan to Buddhism there's there philosophy there's philosophy Java or the

The Jawa can't java can't be able to shard-sard, that's about things about Kisakh, ennei, verturo, and so forthcomingna, it's a philosophic endowment. Now, philosophy barat, moulé, with philosophy, Yunani. And, in there, there's something that's something that, Leth, let's say, with philosopher before Plato,

they're not going to givebanked philosophy as as big to think about the people, traditional,

agama Yunani traditional that's dangal, mengamankan phasasas because, soinga philsavat

can be a little for insider. Not, I'm not people. It's about people. Sedangkaitha Timur, it's true for everyone.

It's been given by people. In this, Java, like traditional India, not have a little philosophy that only get people who have

known, and so many. In fact, it's, it's difficult But if we're but if you're Bucing Javahua

which is there many here, that there's been there, there's a panang of the world that very interesting. So I'm then also, in

Kisakh Deveru Kyi, that I said, but also in the words like Viriti Daya Java, Jada. or or

or srat-a-a-a-lain there there's a certain in-dalen about reality so. So, philosophy

Java, philosophy Europe, then also the puritan by the religion

Wagyu. Agamah Vakio is a gama which mule with Abraham then,

the Islam, the Gama Jhudi, agamahua'u'u D'u'u'u'u'u'u'u'at, and philifahat'u'u'u'u'u'u'u'u'u'u'u'u'an. And philosoph'a'u'an'a'an'an'a'an'a'a'a'i'an'an'a'a'i'a'i'a'a'i'i'an, Now, now, that's the fact that's the right now.

It's the truth of, and it's not true. And, we know, first andamarking kebrener, but, but,

mongar, the benaranaran that comes with claim the benaran and not true. That in agamah also important. In theology,

it's also important. You know what's what? Yeah. Processes to investigate the right of the existing. Now, this, if I'm in order to say, the process

to make upcuring critical, this is a bit more than, in the world? That's hard, I'm not. Tengap, it's, there,

it's a connection with med-source. If I'm at least in Metz's, I think, I must have too much, the bigirang critis, and then, I'll just have people like Karlpupor, Rolls, then

the philosophy, the philosophy, indeed, in order to say, must I'm, quite critical, and then, I'm critiqui, ideology, idyllic. Yeah. What's

the is really the Twitter that's just that's that's that's just where

the person actually and they're not not make that's but that that's

the panang of and I want to be hargai now if that if if it didn't

make up the people people can't say, but if if people of life with

than not-critish, it's it's very bad. And Philharahatma still still, it's still, I'm going to back to Metsos, but I want to try to more about

the panangans of Romo about evolution Marxism in several decades the last this. Romo can't very much

the kind of of the Marxism but it's already has been the form of

the the way I'm actually not not in this

abat this the abat 21 Marxism is very

very very It's very. Marks, a person people who's actually made doroonging to all kinds of a lot of art. A little bit of sempit with focus on capitalism

and then English said that Marxism, Marxism, became dogmatism, in the time 1900, has there's got to work. Lennon. Lennin, Lenin,

men's the leban in theory revolution Marx. Marx said, because exploitation burgh is becoming gawatt, the end uprook and being mishkin,

the society is partied and a little capitalist and the other. Burruch, and if you miskin, they can't buy again the productisicalism. It's the use of capitalism,

the brouc will be able to all right. Maserat tamper class. It's a great concern, non-sense, especially, but more than the society, like burrow. Capitalism,

them buchtinged very very adaptive, adaptive. The last 19th capitalism may know that puruch

who's who makes a more better than may be better than mrs. So,

which is a current which has been the world heritage the essence, must I take to

romah romah that they bangon 150 time long that's long as to burrug-a-grub, that's very much more than they've got more money,

if they can't buy Mercedes, not revolution. Now, Lenin, that revolution has been if there's a revolutionary if there is a realusional and it has to come from a class revolutionary is a person intellectual, who isle-hungat burrhic, from the world,

and the other than repulmonary, more revolution. That's what's the end of Leninism, and in there Lenin, he said, that has beenmping burrow, it's partay. After he has been able to, revolusical

Russia, and in the U. Soviet, and in the situation the dictatorship, did you know, because it's stillangued even though

socialism, but all. So, and the way, communism made a sort of system that's crass with terror and all the same,

and, and, for somemintara, Mark, like it, Dengelam, then, from out of course

communism back back from Marx like Horkheimer Adorno and Abermann Abermas who had been metemann.

I'm very very very. I'm really such as a person philosopher of this abat in I'm at times

I get demu in Munich The station Caritas Bawahawah I'm down on the peron to

see people per die and I'm like haper mas I think I think I'm from

Indonesia I'm sapa she I'm sorry he I'm sorry what

this Professor Habamas he with my guru to answer yeah

He grew up to come to come up. Lowe, I'm going to say, I'm going to say to her husband from Jakarta. And so forthcoming, then she was open. We've already omonged three minutes, but I got a number of telephone from him. Wow.

He said, if he's here again, Cunjungi me. Two years later, I came to Munich. I called her Ithrinia. I told herzvite from Jakarta. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

How much? Lally, I was going to end up sorry to-hry, to drink coffee, to come up a barmeas in a mobile from station of carit-apy, we talked panjang, and then, 10 years ago, I've ever met with him,

we've got to sayang with, people sympathis. Now, this is a person that I'm amissue, something I'm think, what's important, that's not

on philosopher Hegel, that's the most the most of Marx, which is, perspective of

the curban. So, Marx, it's, to bring, to the saddh we have not only only

but there's a lot of there that's a lot, there that's curban and the story that's not from the subst of the curban.

That's by theory critical, and they're and so forth something that something that's a relevant until today

I'm really. I'merraiser that's a certain that's a development that. And this, and it's the other than what we've got. How about?

How did it? How did it? Like we're seeing in unisoviet. Tiongok at all the while time. And in several places there. But I want to try contrast this with philosophy or ideology democracy. how muchongok

can't about theomomomersus and Leninism in the Kalangan many people who have adopted ideology democracy But now, what?

But now, has been there, since two weeks last. Aswanyed, that's, that's, can,

in the the abat 20, Brazil, out of the situation as a object abject,

and yet setagach, and sethack and out. Lalo, Mao Zittung, theremach, theremach,

partai communist, Tyeonggunguah, in Hong Kongok a year in the time in Indonesia, who is the other than I remember, he has already said that, he said, and then the dirigena, now, since I'm four years,

maud setung, be able to be able to be the people, and he had to beaacisazes, Marxism, Leninism Yeah Yeah, Yeah,

especially, he may look that the focus that's not in proletariat Yeah. Malika by the

and the and so many Yeah. Now, Maus that's, then a ideolog

and also dictator that's cras and there are there curban many, but

But as she's as well, of the same thing is the same in China, especially in shawping, that we have to be able to be economic, and he also looks, that China only quite if they're notep and quat. So, so that's not if they're not

but it's true, but it's not democratic. And, the sense of my, they've never really, bethutal, and Xi Jinping, it's now, yeah, very authoritarian, I'm just like that's just a model

like Putin in Russia, in Turkey, I don't know, because democracy in the world, there's in crisis, in my opinion, I not only in Africa or

in a country like that, but in the in a country democratic, like America-that-that-that-you-court. Yeah, we can look at the United States. But, but it's still the people who are the same. 30% of the people of the president did sue. The steel. They're not there.

They've got to have a sonapan in the memory, in America. And, yeah, they're not. Soudara, in America, in 21, in Germany, there's also much that. This is just true paradox

that I'm going to look at. I'm looking a change that's true of that's in Tjongok

in 2008 when the shopping and naik. And lucu-inia or maybe it's not

it's that it did happen on the and penursing in context

autocracy. Right. Leninism, Marxism, they're just too much as aque or resolute to make-selectsian talenta

by-desarting meritocracy. And, in the time same from 2008 until the end of this, back in, even

back in, in different democracy liberal, justro, there's, there's a lot of to make a resulta meritocracy.

This is a paradoxical. Yeah, can? We've got, we've seen, this is true, system of the Pemimpinpinpinpinpinning collective that exists in Tyeongk since some of the decades that has been more,

the companymenmenitance is becoming singular. And, And is that's about pen-selecting talenta not based on meritocracy, but more than based on loyalty or patronization? This is the problem with communism

before in communism Soviet. Yeah. That's all right. Yeah. Which is a criteria he can live or he mighty. Right. Afteringia, the U.

U.Soviet Ambrook, because of the economy and so many. There are meritocracy. Same as a lot of people. I don't know. Deng Xiaoping menelamatkan China. But,

on China, I don't want to do ramalan. I don't know. But the model China with the hope that

Xi Jinping did to bring back ideologization that's very hard, that's been made one of the same model

side of democracy. That's clear. What I'm going to try to talk or consultations to Romo is the the waytani

two systems that are different, it can be just to make the wrong that's

that's and that's to selects landa based on loyalty. It's just it's very

from ideology. Only in democracy if it has been there's there's

to be because if if the people don't be function can't

be in democratic so there has been there has prestation

So that'sasks, also has to be able to beaughan and things like that. There's a lot of things that. The extent ofqueathsance, it will be very important. And it's in the model like China,

there's very much from the bigzacsonaan and pimpingan. And this is titic lemak. What? we don't know. Because he's not controlled at this

I'm quite the good-quat the good-nucan-y there's-a-lawing-retick-ne We're-critic-na. We're not that the beac-sac-sac-sana-na-na-na-a-law-law-a-lac-cac-a-cac-cac-a-cac-cac-cac-a-cac-

Right, right. Right. Okay, I'm going to I'm going to be a about democracy. My understanding about how much system that can

redistribution to to each person in context the world. But if I'm think I, it's more more than more than context democracy

that's, it's to every person to not only but integrity, intellect, money, model, that's just a process checks and balance is more much more than, but

what I see now, as far as structural, there's a lot of democracy liberal. It's not making checks and balance as quick as efficient or as effective like what we want to beaithing the leaqqaqa the same this. Apakable that is the observation that's beener and if he,

how much misgaping it or to begobotting it? Tentu, there's been a lot. I, I mean, I, I, I think that the way of the way of this is a lewacritic. So, so what was by Habermas is called, public. It's public.

It's about public people that's politic parapolitic, but for the legislative but even them are

but they have been a year or a couple town have to be family but they

but they're trus in russ the avasi, the critic the commentary by civil society

which, which is the media which is the media but that's the comparancy rector badan, badan agam LSM the,

the bookokness menoros, the abjacked, that's been able by the government, but also prestation,

performance DPR, misgion, the commentary and the critiqued It's, there's the effect. I only look at it's not that. If not, each memberagre,

have the importance of that quite to be pertaintinger, even without ectica of the public, so it's difficult, to be there's critiques that memaksa to hear, to be pertainting. I'm like, this is oversimplification.

But if in context socialism or autocracy, that's what's being a risk for the people that is not there's no probleminin'an collective. Yeah, right? If the compimpinimpinitance is too absolute in atas and only hangargueroyality, without even in other. But I see also there discount in context of democracy,

where many many democracies, even in the negara, not can't make up against pengobotan to have the lemahsons which, which, you know, symptoms that can't be able to be able to make sure integrity, intellect, that's about

disheasper, so that's the process of balances that's not too optimal. And also, how anyone anyone that's not puttapot can in position to the in context whatever,

whether that's academici, NGO, or politic, or the, or, the, science, that's, that's the process the talenta, not know how in a lot of democracy liberal.

It's also, but there's a lotus, and, or, patronaise. And, semestia, system, can, has been able to be meditory, can. But,

this, can, in, in democracy, is, most, probably, the, what,

what is, because, because there's plurality of the part of the part of the paraps, party, opposition, party permerenters, also, saling percommunication and saling tariff, menaric, there's critiques in the people, Kepuasan, and get-and-jave-a-hawasan, can't be looked, with themik,

can be looked that it's too bad. If a lot of the basis, more than negative, yeah, the other than negative. So,

so, I'm notherut say, if democracy, and there's democracy, democracy, like that with with the leavenan still gives chance the most part of

not russot in curbsy like oligarchy of their who have put the opportunity and they don't make itchinked

them care but if in democracy that's the democracy that's the party opposition There's people in German, the German, who's right now,

who's in the government, and, well, the performance. So, I'm saying, I'm saying, democracy, um,

and, I'm bringing the possibility that I don't know, if this is true for the country like China. That's

It's difficult to be said it's true. But it's a lot of the same to get ridgatory. So we're looking at least, there's a lot of people. Like, Mugabe, a person who's peculaneer of democracy in Zimbabwe. But he had too-tourn't-corrupt, in Japan, in London, Zimbabbe, that's actually, because he's not, because he's 30-tawn or more,

per-quhasa, we've seen. Yoveris, Moseveni, in Uganda, too, who had to bevassed America from Uphi, I think, but it's good, but it's already 30 years, it's also in the country communist, it's going to be very bad for a lot. It's all. So, I mean, I'm going to see,

I'm looking, maybe, can be be hargay one or more than the other, but if the system it's still doisicic risk-cuiting and can't be a good I'm sure. I'm not.

I'm not sure that a certain country has beenpunia some ideology in in a art a certain

rinci how must do you dolancan it has to be doing with a person now this if we can

take pancassila Pansaila, the samea, the causeaqa social for the whole of the United States. Inuade, I'm not sure, it's a lot of ideal.

Why? In that, in it's clear, we've got to be priority, that's the same dump-dark Indonesia,

it can be living wajar as a manusia Indonesia, but it's not evening the system what, what, or in commonism,

or apache capitalism, or what I'maqaqa or sociutto, it's a lot of democratic, has to be found how to buildut can it. Indonesia,

I mean, I think I, the most of the most of the same by the purpose of vertical. It's more than 20, It's up to be it's just.

50% Pas-asan, dexterat 10% of them is still mizkin. If the 50% in the bottom, the idea, it's of their

whatever can be It's the law Pancasila also not the argana. Sila the 5th, The other than the fifth is the the other than

the important Indonesia has to be prioritas that people who are people who miskin

merasaking happy that he in Indonesia and can be living as human now that

I'm not I'm saying not theologi malignan can nilay or criteria that is that's ideology that

is hardaughan elite who know ideology that. What artiqa alirang social, also we have we talked with and it's

good. Beardasur that, Romo, I want to ask, is, is a country

like Singapore that, it can be be called as a democracy that as a democracy than the other than

democracy liberal that's not can't make upcuitous or can't to be able to to be able to and curugunan

multirass, multi-agam multi-adniz. This is a question. I'm not to give you. This is a question that

I can't I can't Because I never In Singapore, I also I'mperhatical But I'm in front of I'm in fact that's Caspurra is in a lot of

where they Tangani the It's such a Mungungu In fact, In a situation Amat tersepit Malaysia

Indonesia small, has to give uphurtigieg. They're something different not quite liberal but I must make a dexterous,

even puas, it's in a situation in a country that's like, it's possible, and I'm kakumi Singapore, but what can be It's in the Uyru,

especially Malaysia, apalaga Indonesia, I think that's not going to be. Maybe, maybe my question myra if I'd ask 10 or 20 years

last, Naluri I, or Naluri any of anyone, if you're not, if they're noticator, can't be able to dictator. dictatorship

because of the system the peoplepimpinpinpinning that's in person who's not even to know and make-cout and make-cout-upon that's from

but but after this I'm a bit better pandang that they can make make make sure that they

get-tourunan India, Tionk, Malayu, Eurasian, whatever they're is to get a good for the best for

for the good, chastraan that's the good, whatever. And it is terminifestation multi-ethnism, multi-religy, and multi-rass. And if,

I think I, system this is the system this is allan, like, the same, like, the same, the, The law isle-the-cala-the-farmes. All of the same.

It's just how much people that can be able to be able to people that are given. But, many of the other who make-cue the democracy liberal,

but if we look at, in the lapangang the opportunity to be given to each manusia. For what a day? Not a democracy can,

there, there are two democracies and democracy Singapore, I think, I think, I'm still can't be able to beaute democracy because system that didcung by

the society, it's there's also also some of some of the mechanisms democratic, I see the truth can't it's a little with China,

China Beijing, which, in there we're And we're the whole that's the whole actually that's about, but ifakas one can't make sure?

In Singapore, it's not only one one. The people, that maybe elite that in the atas. In China, there's a problem

Uyghur, there matter like that that's not to but there. But there kimipan. And, We're even, we're going to look at a lot,

maybe more than a lot of a lot of a lot of democracy. I don't know India, miscells. I've never lived in India three years. And, if I'm in terms of them, I'm not sure democratize. Yeah, right? And diversities in India, too, complex. from what we have in Indonesia. And it's, if we're to the Uttara,

in the than to the middle, in the than to the south, it's not only a bhaasasa that, but the pola-pickriness, it's very different. And, scale, is 1.4 million. But I want to ask Romo, if we look, if we've looked 200-town-the-half-the-trak-it,

that quality of the people, that's a lot of-bri-biasa. But, But in the air-ahir-hirt is the kind of better than quality of the mainca-negade that we sacksiky-than-100-a-half-a-a-ha-a-ha-a-ha. Yeah, if we're back a book of history. For example, in German, I don't know what this is true.

In France, what is true, yeah, I don't know. In the abate the 20, there maybe John F. Kennedy. There's maybe Mahatma Gandhi. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, okay. This is also a person who's in front of the penjazzade. Is it because of the peruntunging,

or because system that can gongongonged, a sosop that really, really, well, yes. Yeah, if they've had a system, And then, in India, in Greece, and has been the other than in Greece, AIMSah, which has been to be a lot of people, Gandy that we, yeah, we don't know, and the other than the other than, again, he has lived 20 years in India, Pandit Nehru, what, functioningia and soagena. So that's

a lot of nonalism situation that's which is also also meransang the of sub-bombi that

menentang colonialism and it's and makebuktickand there. Timbula, Sukarno. And then, some, especially in Africa,

not able to for thempimbing the people who are under the kind of because it's not quite being with all the kind of

of a problem of a in life of a country. Okay, this, we can't we can't

come to point that Romo-an- -a-an-kat, which met-sos. I have There's a bit more than the

mainzance, that's about it's very very much to melanch-milat the community. So, there's polarization of the talkapan. And because

it's been there's been polarization percakapan, it's more difficult to un unctuble in any other And this is a discount in process

in anypun. Inamapun. Ampacal it is observation that right? I'm not in position to answer this because I'm at the MetSos

that almost not there's about even that I know about metzos that from what is written about what is about metzos

but but that's the way to make sure that's obvious because people can't come t'nugue in front of

there menibulcan lulled and the other things I've got to say in one case in Shepard in

Shepil Magel Spiegel, that's a lot of German that's a lot more people that's not sympathetic that's on YouTube outing with a name, and then

a rippoon of people being haters, he and mbouru he, sometimes there people who are

people who arecumpul in the front of his, and chancam him, that's a lot of that's true for example eight years. He's thinking,

he's not, he's not, but it's in fact that, you can't do. The people can't hear much to say, the people can't even make all kinds of nonsense. It's, if it's Lally, like, how can't remember? That's about the Twitter, you know.

Elon Mas. In fact, I'm going to make cacao. Luar-biasa, ribuan people who have lived in favor of, I think, bahia is big. Bahia, it's a big. some of that discourse that's just like that's in the metisos just to

so hard. Because people, I can't be able to get it. I'm saying, I'm a lot of people that in platform metisos, algorithm that is justro amplification narrations narrations

that kental with partikation, Kental with Kental with Kental with a good design in technology And it's as a can-akened disamakan

as a sort of like democracy In fact that we're seeing that narrations that's not didaxana it's very amplification by algorithm that in platform technology

And we also that, narrations bianasana, that there's the silent majority who don't want to talk, who can't be able to talk, or sunkan to talk. It's,

I'm being, I'm looking at it in the case of COVID who, in, in, German, in a rational and so-sacusical masker and in the theory COVID,

maybe 20 people who have gotten much, much, the doko, the minta, make a masker,

and then they'll, and it's something that's very difficult, it'd beaang- that, it's,

there's there, there, with metisos that, that made-siptagant a lot that,

you know, the people who have been conspiration and the same exactly, not access by reflexes

by reflexes and also reflexeatis, if there's there's perpahe so, I think I'm not, I want to ask

Rommu, this, we're as a democracy, or democracy liberal. To the best of the way, how much the process democratization this is more robust to the yeah, of course. Well, of course, if we talk about Indonesia,

um, And, in 2004, for the year important, I'm in particular, I'm going to say,

this is going to pick it, that's not an urusant I, but I've said, several times,

to be a lot of people, people, people, people, try tagic from them what they're

what they're They want to make Indonesia. What do they want to dolea social? Want to dolemenosite of subaglia and subaglia and the subpoenaed from salon president, from the calum vacill rakia at DPR, you know what is going to offer what? that's very much

about the President, as part of the word, I don't know, from them anything they want to bring Indonesia to a rahman, mechalking the problem Indonesia that's

that's what, that's the, if it's, that, it's, it's notut by the people, I said that

someone who, who, who's, try, don't, just, just, workman, but

he's talking about but he's talking about. But this, Romo, democracy is the distribution of power to the hands of many but the long

there's not there's distribution integrity, intellect, information to, and,

to have every person that's in the problem, in the same-itoubos, will be in the same thing in the process of democracy, can? So we think we're going to make up to make-sacquise what we want to make sure to make them menagish.

But if they're not to be-is-eastern with integrity, intellect, information, the samestiness, is hard to make sure like Rommo or like I or like I'm like. That's true. In other fields,

this is a concern I. If I'm going to be in Indonesia, if I'm looking, I'm seeing, the people are the people who are best. The first, in 2005. Then

2009, I'm from 2009, I'm in fact the way people people really quite make sure. Yeah,

I don't know if they they're really, I'm going to make one party, and other

people, but what I observational first, there's not there are people who

might be in And I'mumum, there's 100 people who I'm sorry. Yeah. And I'm observationaled at the time people who are given and there's enough, there's that one party only got

a little. So, the kematan of the people who, actually it's a bit more than I'm going to san I'm sometimes sometimes, because there's much more than also one man, one person, one vote, that individualism, and liberalism. I always want to tell. That's why we're not even better better.

that's from a from a lot of so I'm not really. So, I'm also in some people,

there's also that's very, what namely, polarize in the year 19, people

people still people, they're relaxed, not there's getting the Kekrasan, but

there's someara, that Partai Alaks, but that's etanal I'mgap de facto that. People who I'mgap jihad, yeah.

But, the people, we could make with with tenang and and

and remember the result and for me, it's so I'm bringing a smanat so I'm

ag optimistic at that okay, good, now now, now, now,

now, now, now, now, Tami. Romo, Romo, Rommo, and there's about

tantamane. And this is important to process education, the kids, what are the other than our

challenges. In Indonesia, it's all much-mach, but I certainly still look radicalism and

agamah as one tantan. The two that I said I said, that's serious

that's the firstisement vertical that we're quite we're more than more than the more than 50% in the above, it's de facto

if it's making split that it's becoming it will be it will be dangerous Yeah Yeah Of course of the third, but I'ma little bit of course of the second.

I'm going to take from the top of my school like Fiswatraiakara in Czapaka-Putti, a journey of Yiswit, I'd doharbaro. Levy from one kilometer, I'd left the campum, there's there's uprook, if I'm in half, they've got to beck, and they're running,

they're doing, they're in front. They're taking on the place that's in the same, in the same, in the same, kind of I'm for aom,

but not justoog for menusia, but they're good, they're lucied and, I'm concerned I, they're quite a few because of the enderamayu and sopacenia. The people Indonesia is not irixti because of what they're not iry-hati

that other has ASEA, what other than ASEA, what other than in the room that good. But if then, kubuk, they're robok-khan, they're they're they're quite quite and so we're making we're making

there's at least we're at least we have to be helped so that we can't be able to be able to be human who we're in this we've got to be

the past the point that but if it didn't be partaking so if the difference the top and in the bottom and the backer become

and the way of the radicalism of agamahs and everything that. So, it's very important that perpolitical we're focused on 50%

people who also pass-pastan that. The third, I'm gladiatorana I'm I'm concerned democracy

we're being oligarchy corrupt. It's not but the only the but the ancamannes

to be the people, it's got to five million, it's kind of

current more, maybe it's a person person usahawan or who has sponsor ushawan

can't be able to in front of me, if I'm going to be working, if you're if you're from,

from ushawan with its own who can't people people who are people. We're in

Indonesia have one one of one of I, I'm there, there's kind of from the restyva 65, 6'am

that's made people who's afraid to the right. But democracy, tamper kiri, actually, there's been there. If we're talking, if there's partai where, which, in, as far as far as,

bevapingan beauched small, neilayang-kechil, people in Kaki-Li-Lewat, penguany, and so much there, that's that really,

but of the power. President Kukovi who's very who very, and I like, did support by the 80% DPR.

And that's not, because KPK because of DPR and it's a lot of people DPR, and I'm going to support the government. Yeah, barakal, not that's what I'm worried. So, democracy, we don't too mantap in the powertania.

Taday. Tadangangangang, this is about three. How about? Tantangangany. It's been said about five. It's in a global. Global, I'm looking at five tantamance.

That's one, it's also, ancamanterad of democracy. For me, democracy, actually, is a bigpian that, But democracy, not only in Africa, not only in Timur-Tenagued. But in America-Majur-Serika, in Europe, that's in where.

That's the first. The second, I'm not sure. I'm worried that with per-economian that neoliberal capitalistic, The world Tohame Tohack Inoucettish I'm going to

Indonesia To be there Then failed states They will be left to rot It's There are

Ratsosan a million, maybe 1 million, the end uphous in the danger in the pastoralized. I've never heard,

people who mightn't know not luci, that in Africa, there's 100 million people,

has got the rancel and I'm go, to Europe to be able to live. Gawatt it,

That's the 2. That's the 2nd. The 3rd I look atal I'm not forgot to beepisaged I, the 4th, it's to be a cancouran alam.

That's very serious. I think if until 2030, years. human's not even though people who are up to get into that's up to get up to get, there's a tipping point that can't

then, we'll say not, but that's more more, can't get in a situation that's un-surious. The answer man, if allam da'er tahn,

alam ambrug, atmosphere, russack, and so kind of, The fifth is, that's of artificial intelligence that's being a question that we've got

to be brought to where? I've ever watched book Romanovsky about death algorithm that's just a lot of

the car, mobile that's a vehicle that's like a car that's just, just to remember, just to be. But the car by bike, without a copier. There's a lot that dadathe up to the top of the car. He's already to passang algorithm.

There are three of the ones. First, he lindas the dog, the dog that, the other one that matty. KATHLEEN TARDTHAE, but there are two people in there who will die. Or the banditir to the right, nabraq, three people to move,

to meet. Manna, which they have been more complicated. Face recognition is in the algorithm, so

the mechanism mobile also thought about two people that's one that's important or not so if not

if not, if they're But we're in mind, but... Amat's very big, the problem that we're atop. He, notably, didn't beacchacchacan the problem algorithm, it's not so. It's not very much.

Who who will make make sense of economy, to bring aeem-mongun-room-rumach, and give-itin-study, and so-pacen-suffeky. It's gawat-soly, yeah. We've got to discusses about Yuval Harari, aphi, anthropology, and all the other than

bad with panang of Romo. Now, this I also that, which, which is much things that make quatering me. In the 21

Lessons for the 21st century, he menulis that in 2050, 50% of the most human beings irrelevant. useless species. So,

whether they're able to not, or not lapar or can't eat, who's who who's who puttooli? Indonesia, it, will be 140,000

people in the time 2050 if it's true, irrelevant. Manusia, irrelevant just very relevant and quatiracquatircant

it. Yeah, this is halal like that. Yeah. I'm, I'm sorry, and maybe that more more to be partimbang-cant

is, if if access to create artificial intelligence this, only be given by the people who

the the way of the or the way of the way, can't say, can't be able to be able to be. KATHRAHROWC-Q-Qaeda. There are people who have a panangangus,

miscellanying economy, many people neocapitali, neoliberal, that's not a person who want to make a sub-bagia the people of the they're making the human beings. So,

the person is that I'm not, it's a lot of, that's I'm going to be a problem, yeah, precisely that. They're going to be able to, you know, who's who's making, who's, that. We're going to be a lot. I think that, I'm going to, I can't can't even usele can't same as a lot of

politics, economically, technologous that has to be used. We need a keyakiness, and keyakiness ethis that can't

be taught that have to come to the algorithm algorithm that. So, all, Al-hall that,

like, as well-geney-adilance, misal about repubasance beragamah, each sila can be in terms of

the contut that we contut that the politicians to make it to the algorithm.

This is very important, so, the, so, fom-atis, it is important. because that Pancashila,

that I think, too much as a subcats, the purpose of the same thing that's up, and I'm saying, people who are in general, and ber-adap, I've beenpentap that,

it's, that it's not-an-a-cassation-manusia and I'm sure-y, that reformation to make-sucing law-sac-sac-sac-susia to do-endment to-dallamunds, But but up.

Rightap, we're hearting, we have to-crasan, must beharam-cum-combe, termasue mutelagam-can war to make-cachachachan massal-anthar-banks-a-papap-paw. Peradap,

not only to beeradernusia, but also to beerad of alam. So, that alam, They've been purviewed It's called for the Mata'arra, not there's not there, but it's not

it's not yet in the sila the 2a that, because people are not only making unycated with way to make and thembuang, but

it's up to beeliora like people people who may have beeneliora to it. There's a Rommu?

Yeah, I'm always optimist. I'm still, this is it. This is true, it's usually, the backian-ahir-outher-you-law. The same, where I'm going to 245,

how? Gambarance is, like, how much, I'm inrood, wad, wad, I, I don't have gambarant.

I only have the quatiration the that's still where we're to be a lot of to be the timeanguantan that, but

what's in the 45, how can't see that? Wadduh, I'm, I'm, I'm,

that Indonesia, that, in 45, has still there and and it's still in order to in the world, with all the same kind of of the lemawn that there

on the basis of the people who are, with, the hardabat and so many. So, Indonesia, until now, is a book success story. not 100%

but maybe 10% if we're quite 45% I'm not quite I'm quite quite I'm quite can't england

to the middle or not I'm afraid I'm afraid I'm back I'm back I'm back maybe there other people can

be bladder from Indonesia Yeah It's not even. But I look, I'm going to take back. The two issue that Romo-angkat that, the first one, Tendangue,

is the first of the most and the most in the bottom. And this is more clear, in empiric, not only in Indonesia just, even in the country, which is much more than the country that's much elite in the

that's more than condominy and quay political, co-be-budah, cui-buda-puday, cue-ap-pun-pun-l. Even, the effect of just-tru

not only they're not only co-optasie the system that there. This is that maybe, Romo-maksut in context

oligarchy and other, And like, now, lucidia, that's ironic, if I'm in front of us, we've seen how much

million-ton manusia is to be an from the kind of from situation that's but

why justro the shenjangang is more mingat? This is very paradoxical, right? So,

we look inclusion the economy is more than but it's not about about and make-o-obotty or men's

system is broken in the country may bebeang and the country miskin but there there

there other other countries that can manage yeah can check process

that the process it in Russia there is there's in the German also in the same as far as far as three two per three that's major

that they're that's under the process of work or two or defable or the same thing that the end of the end of the time it's hard to pay for money for their that but but this is still in the

that's I'mgat if I'm not quite about this. In this, I'm going to make sure because in the time

not too long to get 300 200 people Oh, 700 million 700 jut from

humus in this is one peristace this one reality and that and

and and that's just to be the other so I'm like you so I'm the country that's a certain just as in Indonesia so bettun you actually

can't to make sure to make the exact the result of Malapata that, I'm going to try to bunkers in context economy if we're going to look at

30 years in the last year in Asia Tengara to make Indonesia that's a puttumbuance per-orangue three-laped in 30 years until 2019

in 2019 Tionk in period in the same the endapotan perornan number 9-10 people up three-laped from Asia Tengar

that'sia-and-combe, and I'm about the Asia-Tengara, there's one perkechualian, namely Singapore. But, in a way, Asia-Tengara, it's cala with Tioncok because three or four attributes. First, investancy in infrastructure

that's done in massive by Tiongouk in 30 years. Jail more than Asia-Tengarah. And this is and this is manifestation of the same thing. It's called upon Pisa, where Tyeongk is number one, in the Singapore, number two, from 78th, Indonesia, number 71.

The third, this is Peningoting. Like... Daya saing. Yeah. So, the Tyeongkok, it, they can make outlawful

per 1,000 people, and more than 7. In Indonesia, 0.3. Artiness, system that's in Tionk this, this, man, to become a world,

to be a wier-usah, to more than more than more than risk to make sure can Kestraan their and each-mashirean. Inundasia, this is a PR that's very.

Singapore, per-one per-one, he can give an Ijinn to 9. Philippina, Thailand, almost same with Indonesia. With us. Almost. Yeah.

No. 3-1-1-1. I mean per-1-1-1-1. Now, if I see if I'm about Tijuana, if I'm about Tijuana, it's really things that are in the basis of the

lot of the time for the period of 20, 20, 30 time to the time. It's well within our control. But maybe more structural is, for 30 years the last, Tyeongkok can

make sure the pleslection talenta by the same 2019. It's up to optimism for I'm,

where if Indonesia really really kekeh, resolute, want to exist as a democracy that more kya, we

just take up about on education, on infrastructure, about the poweringing, and how much we can't put a position in anypimpinpinpinning

in anyprenu, it's more than meritocracy, not patronas or loyalties. This, this is the, if we're looking the people, the people of the menteries, we don't,

I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. but not the people who's the most but people that's as far as part of the parties coalition, it's

yeah, it's not meritocracy to be, that's just to loyalty. Yeah. Point of my opinion, my, Romo. Apopun, what I'ma, what's the discount, in process or congaeshares, it can't be able to the time.

And if we're ready to make up the things that we've said, there's a reason we can't be able to move. Yeah, yeah. So, this, I'm bringing optimism for me. To the front, it, semestina, or the chagia,

this is more terang if we're really, want to be there. How much? Yeah, this is it's going to people that that's

we're doing not able to make it. We can't get a little. But, but finally, from the

people who we've picked, or whether their vision that, or what their power

power They're the power of the power of the power of reprimadian, yeah, that's. Yeah. Because that, we have to ask from the par parochalun people, we're making them remunuscan what they want to make sure that they're doing. That's not even must it can be done, but, we can't, we can't know, we can't have,

if they've got a lot of it. If I'm not, if I'm not, if I'm going to be able to, if I'm being a manpower, I'm being told us, what I'll have to do, that's not that. Only, we know, I think I, don't know, I, not be able to be able to look at, We're in terms of China,

so we're nothered, so we're not going to look at it. We're doing, many, it's already to be built, but, of course, where we're talembang, where we're taking, how much, it's how much it's, I think, amat, very important, it.

Yeah. If you're how much, how much more than we can't get back to the better? I'm going to be a lot more than... I'm going to be a philosopher in a suburb profession that by many people

do not be able to be... Oh, it's essential. I'm almost mercered that in Indonesia I'matharrafatira mechamah. Yeah. Yeah. The university of Pusari, and Punea, Tuani, U.I, then Gatamada,

yeah. The Europa is the Tiap Universe, that's in the Faculty of Philzsafat. Yeah. Yeah. Filsafat, it is a bit of Gara can't the Swato Abbat, but, yeah, but you, then, so,

garam, or Tabe, and you can, reangangangang, pomikera. Yeah. So, that, also in arti more

more than more than people who even more than other people know about philosophy from we have many people

have been majoring to not be a person who not be a but they have something other with

vision that critical from philosophy I think a sumbangan that a quite

enough that is to we need to we we can we can we need to

And the education has left from the model that I think that's used to be able to be able to cause. So I remember, I remember, I'm going to be a man who, long, in America, I think I'm going to look at me, when she made, you know, the mother's, I think, made sure, and I'm going to I'm menangess, I'm going to say, I'm going to ask you, I'm going to ask you, if you're going to ask, but I'll have to dedic to pertain, to make partanical, to be open, to, for news, kirk, curious, to, to, critical, too, critical, too, it's is still

in in the education in particular. And I'm in terms of the time and to beckx that's

not possible to make people become making people so that it is still

more than a kind of kind of kind of kind of I'm I'm going It's very

people, look at the people who are more more than I'm going to and I'm too always makeingotkan

to the people, that the person a guru, that important. I'm thinking. I'm,

I'm, more prioritizing quality of quality of curiculum. Yeah. Bucan, but it's

not it, I don't need to be perbuy-trikyy, but if if it's not quality-noticrous, it's dampact that's very structural and very long-pangue and menentucked, whether he will be able to be.

And I, I'm still still now, I don't look at, kata, or pesan that dis-sampaicant, I was my class 3-ST, when I was class 2-SMP, when I was in the class that'samah,

that's not-lupac because, I think, it's a guru that's very quality. And it's very much with quality of

the education. And, and it's also in-r-tanka. Yeah, can? There's also one thing that I don't

Or in here, in the in the in the way of the language, in the children, SMP, SMA that. I remember, too, the learning of

German that I got in gymnasium, it was, six years, we're not talking about , we're not like

to talk, but, but, but, but, and, sastra, both

classical QED, while Pouet, contemporary from abat the 20, I think, it's

amat very good with Indonesia has that's mutual, the

world, people, people, they're being bachasas security to be humanusiaan

or what that, it, cintabence, judas, and sure, and sure, that's in,

if it's in, if it's a lot of a new thing, that's the world, I don't know, I don't know what kind of

it's been given, it's more loasance, than, than just, but, I'm notarerate. I'm sure.

I'm Wow. Okay. I want to ask, what makes you happy? Good question. I think I'm

I'm thinking I'm think the answer from Aristotelis. Yeah. Aristotelis I'm not

We have we have the same. I think we're in fact that we're happy. But there point two that's just as there, but not it's not that's not being happy if he's been trying to be happy. So, so people want to be happy, he never will be happy.

We're happy because we're happy because of the way of the way to make sure. Because we're making happy, and make people people like, make people. Now, I don't know why I'm happy. I'm saying, I'm saying, also has

there in the in the human there's not in front and then and then I'm going to what I'm just enough. It's just enough. I don't know

I think about happy or not. If I'm people ask what I'm happy yeah, maybe I'm happy. You look very happy. You look very happy. You look very happy.

You look very happy. So that's Well, especially maybe a little time to make this and it.

So I'm sometimes sometimes per-doua at times. If you $86, it's always

when it's time, but yeah, no-wis so-cepe-ce-be- -be-but. Romo,

this, the question there's, there, there, there, for us in Indonesia?

Yeah, The other than I'm the same never do you know something for your your people

your other people we're our life we're can be relive

if there people who are that they're much that they're with we're

with us That's just a sumbangan if you can't sumbangs to the commasamombo. That's just. Thank you very, Romo. Thank you. Thank you, yeah. Tremant, teman,

that's Romo Magnus. Thank you very. This is NG. Yeah, the point is I'm going to do. I, if I, if, as a woman, Dera, from Indonesia. Injata? No, no.

No, no. I just to do with Jawa, one and a half time. And he didn't from the I heard from him that the lombok it was, it's not as a

because of because of people from but Roushti right but it's very but it's not it's not really it's not

Okay, one, two, two, three.