Endgame with Gita Wirjawan - Tessa Wijaya: A Dark Horse in the Financial Inclusion Story

Episode Date: July 7, 2021

Digital payment and financial inclusion are so much more than just e-wallets. From infrastructure to an educated society, these are just some pieces that need to move together to achieve a common goal of empowering everybody to flourish and add value to the nation's economy. Tessa Wijaya is the Chief Operating Officer and co-founder of Xendit, the fastest growing digital payments infrastructure in Southeast Asia. She is responsible for the company's overall business operations, including service and support, partnerships, government, public relations, and compliance. Tessa co-founded Xendit with a highly diverse international team to build Southeast Asia's first modern and reliable payments infrastructure, uniquely designed for the region's complexities. Besides making Xendit, Tessa is also a champion for women entrepreneurs, spearheading the Women in Tech Indonesia platform. Tessa received her undergraduate degree from Syracuse University and her postgraduate degree from the University of Sydney.

Pediccan is important, just basic just but what's more real world for startups. How to raise funds? How do you run your books? You know, as in like, how do I get to profitability? I feel very privileged to have learned that

through being in the investment world. It's really, you know, I'm sure you also saw that value. Belajure, learn to look industry, be able to meet, many entrepreneurs, how did they get it up and running. More people should have that knowledge.

More people should have that knowledge. This is Endgame. This is the end-game. T-Temann, we're coming Tessa Wijaya, founder of Zendid. Tessa, thank you, can come to the acara

our acra kitha. Thank you, too, you've done so much. You've done so much, recently, particularly, but all throughout your life. Masa-kechil-ne-a-lacier

in Jakarta, then, then how much, next. Let's tell you. Yeah, yeah. Actually, I actually, I do back at the Sukubim. Okay.

So, to Jakarta, because my parents divorced, so I was a divorce. So I was on the last year. In fact, in the Succa Bummi? Tawar actually, you know, that's really interesting, because I have the exact same birthday as you. No kidding. Yeah, so you're a Virgo. Yes.

Oh, wow. We're on the verge of being Libra's. Okay. Okay. Very interesting personality trait. Very, very specific, but also Libra, can, bimbang. Well, some, but some are not. Then, then, from, from, from, from,

yeah, do you know, in the suca bumi? Yeah, I had a really great childhood, and a small town, can be out of the world. It was at a time with no phones. It was like, I was very, very naughty. Bandol, bantle-bunked, d'amble.

What about it? I was, I was going to go-school, playing layang, or... Or... No, if that's not, that's not. Okay. So, like, like, I had a bas-a-a-ta-ta-the-banned-lund-a-ta. Yeah.

Yeah. Na-speedo, demen-bent. So I asked my dad, can, I should be very feminine. I have to ballet, what, and what's-cant-cant-canty, buy-a-pared-pac-pac-pac-pac-pac-tasels. It was like a dream for any kid.

And then I went to my dad. Dad, I want a BMX. I want to be a MX. Because I want to be a m'em-but. Then I want to play with the cowo. And then my mom's my marra-mar. You, not be able to go out, lay-lary with the other boys. So I was always very much a tomboy.

Okay. Didha' to Jakarta? Umur 4. Umur 9, yeah. Umur 9. Okay. So, tibba-tibba, so, tibbae to big city,

my parents' divorce, that really was very impactful, obviously, Then, then moved to Jakarta, I've got school in Tarki, a few years. Okay, Tarki that's where? Tarki that's Tendian. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Now, then, maybe, my father, he was a businessman, not a lot of time. So he sent me to live with his, his dad,

hisatt, in Hong Kong, some, so I did for a little bit. So I did that for a little bit. So, that was it, can't English? Or not? No.

So, so it was very strange. It was very strange. Jamen, time, there was many times, many shows and English. So, I've been doing in there, also, I've ever even if you're just of being

so much of language but also, so, but, yeah, really, really turn, to leampark to situation that situation that's very different, yeah, school in there,

with the language in English. But if you're still, I think you adjust so well. If you're still very, so fast, right, like, like sponge, like, shh. Exactly. If you're going to be panicked, sometimes, if you're not being about it,

but you're still, whatever, drag up. If you, it's like I'm not going to go, no, no, not, but it's mindset, I think. 50 is young at heart. Only halfway through, right? Then?

Then, then, Yeah, then, still just bandel in there, they're still to boarding school in Australia. Wow. Sydney. It was an all-girls school, yeah, Sydney. Very competitive, called King Coppour Rose Bay. Very beautiful,

it's really, view of the harbor bridge, and opera house. I was very, very lucky. Dalem it's not so, it's, it's not even a boarding school, you don't even have any wall. You have, like, like, like, treetex, like, like,

It's not at the time. Okay. Then, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, like, like, scut, like, like, like,

like, like, barring, , time, time, time, time, all that's, all it's all

to be able to , other than different, so if you , if you're , if you , if the

day, the first time I used a washing machine, all my clothes All my clothes went purple. So I had a purple theme. Because the whole term, I had a purple theme. All the tiamahsia umo.

I think it was a purple sock. I was like, wow, that sucks. And then, how much did boarding school in Australia? Two years. Yeah, two years. So for the senior high school, yeah. Or SMA. And then thereafter, curious, I was also very lucky.

I was able to go to school in America. So, I'm concerned. Like, everyone, can't be able to beaugh, America is a negare you. Yeah. Yeah, I went off. Jaman, during the internet, was still very very, so the...

That's, it's in 1990, yeah, I went, yeah. Then, and, as well, as well as well as the news like that's she Rakeos is to get New York. Sampet to the first time I went to New York. Yeah, when that was when I saw

when I saw it, oh, transit New York City, the person was really really, I was like, okay, this is not New York City. Trenata, it's just a lot from New York City, and it's no seven months a year, resaldued, there, there's some, oh my God. There's some of Kumat Skiy,

Exactly. And then, okay, this is not New York City. It's all, it's not about, it's not about. So I want to school there. Nambil what? Political philosophy. Very random, I know. That's not really not even

what you're doing what you're doing I actually think, but, actually, I think, but, the way I'm trying of the polo-bekier now, the start-up world.

Okay. Well, maybe, why? Because idealist. I thought, wow, I come from a very privileged background. I want to learn something, come back here, and do something for the country. Yeah, I don't know. When you're young, bright eyes. So, I'd, I'd like to work in NGOs,

after I was. And I did try to magang in UNICEF. But I wanted to work in NGOs. I thought, and I think it was also because, First time, the first of the Uliahan is, the greatest thing about America, I think, studying in America is liberal arts, liberal arts university. So, we can be able to be a product of liberal arts.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think a lot of us, what, I think, I'm like, the example, class geography. Test of what? It's, it's, it's, right, this, name, the, what, what, what, everything else, all of them all right. So when I came to America,

then, then, many many many of the other many of the teachers that I thought, wow, it really opened my eyes. And philosophy, political philosophy, was something that really very impactful and really in line

with what I want to do. You went to the US blind about what you wanted to study. Or, or had already or already to know, I actually, I enjoyed art as well. It's one of those as well.

I think it was partly a reaction. Pasagued in Indonesia, it's very strict. Placiaran, all hafala. Up in the 80s, early 90s, all was hafalon. Not there's that you learn about, I don't know, theories of justice or whatever else,

can, all hafalan, hafalon. So, you know, when I went to Hong Kong, went to Sydney, like to be perkenacanical, the name's art, creativity. It was very, there was a lot of freedom. Tibba we're just to be creative. You can see the possibilities of being creative. So, first I wanted to do art, because I really appreciate a lot of art.

And then I want to Syracuse, going to art school. Gamba. Gamba. Okay. Actually, I wanted to go to film school, which is really pretty ironic today here. And then I realized I saw, in America, well, everywhere,

here included, but when I saw many people who were really, really talented in art. And then I realized, okay, I appreciate art, but I like not so not so much better, so I realized that I used to do a lot of summer school. So I graduated, I think, like, something like 48 credits over. So I was a bit dorky. Okay, you took a lot of summer classes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was a bit geeky.

I love just going to classes. I was one of those guys who, if there, TA office hours, if there's professor of office hours, then if there's professor of office, then, I'd say, why, here, come here, come as many classes as I could.

So, like, from PCC, K, like, from, what I think I took anatomy class, which I thought was really cool, and then, astronomy, even, I thought that was cool as well. And I started taking a lot of philosophy classes, political philosophy. It resonates.

When you're so privileged, you can, and go, to Australia, to America, you see how things can be. Then, back to here, and you see how things are. I was like, I really want to change the world. And all these theories that came out of my studies, I thought it really resonated. But I actually think I would urge anybody to take philosophy classes. Yeah, I love philosophy.

I like to talk philosophy, actually. I'm sure. I'm going to talk about philosophy. It's been such a long time. Now I'm just excited with like, how do I make the startup run? But it was good. But it was good. But it's kind of a bit,

because we're in Australia, it's been more related to formulation. But if in America, and aggapal-Arts, that we're really, really, the freedom, or the free will to think.

Yeah. I just remember it. Yeah, yeah, and in America, there was one professor in political philosophy. She was always challenging us. And I thought she was like, just so smart, and really, opened up the way I thought, really challenging, you're really thinking, what is the basis of your argument?

Which is, I think, that's a great thing about learning philosophy, like, learn about logic. You learn about how are you sure one thing is true versus another? And, I think it makes me very inquisitive. And it's... So, beckle. So, be it's something, there's a challenge whether in life or in professional life that I don't know, but not comfortable,

with basis that I can go and tackle it. You know, based on logic, based on a very structured way of thinking about things. Approaching problems so we can focus on what are the real solutions and why. Many times, if I look, what's like, what's the why is hard. So I always, I think a lot of my people know, I'm always like, why, why, why, why? Yeah, exactly.

And who? And it's very, very important, I think, both in life and professional life. And then, and it's just, it's like, with political philosophy in Espewold. Yeah, yeah.

What makes it so sticky? I think, again, So if you look back in my life, I come from a very privileged background from my father. My mother's side, not so much. The way my mom and dad met, it's because, my father's got to go overbur. Because she had to do anything and everything to make ends meet. So if I look, from

from the the other than the other than the family of mama who's not as a good-reuntung to the father, early on, like it's, so even though not di-articulate, not be articulated, there's something about justice that resonates. Just, you know, that's why John Rawls is one of my favorite philosophers. We talked about John Rawls in the other show. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. So, so it really resonated.

And I realized, I realized it was all the roll of the dice. I mean, a lot of people say, you know, we can all say, hey, I got here because of me. Not-munkin. You got here because there are certain other things. that you were privileged to have in life, or certain other things you didn't. And then also there's working hard and everything else. But when I look at that disparity, yeah, I'm curious, I was like,

how much when I'm so privileged, I can give back. So people like my mom's family, what have to, a lot of them, the women, especially, all of my mom's side of the family, all of my mom's family, women, maybe for whatever reasons in life, they're poor-bearned, they're going to work to make upka-can the family, putting kids through school.

And I thought, how do we equalize that? So, the likes of them, not just suffering like that again. You're more than Papa or Mama? Both equal, maybe. More, more than the father or mom? I think more more than Papa, because the

the great is with him. Okay. He's a driven person. Very driven. Because you seem very driven. Yeah, yeah. He was an entrepreneur. He was a lot of hard.

He's a bit older than my mother. Dool, he was a bit older than my mother. Dool, he was like, that was like, that was like, that was, didn't come from a wealthy family as well. Worked to get to where he was.

Worked to get to where he was. was, if he really, really, really, work hard. I'm like, wow, amazing. But, it's really because, because, I'm,

too, back to tomboy, so I've been reflecting, like, how did I get to where I am today? I realized that, because I've been doing a lot of speaking engagements

about women, women in tech, or women empowerment. And then I thought, how did I get here? I think I actually all aloud to him as well. allowed to him as well, because he's not never, don't know,

this is not what you're going to you're doing. At any point in time, from I said, I'm going to BMX, do. He gave, this BMX. He knows, I mean, privileged to be able to buy it,

but he gave, you, it's just because you want to make BMX, it's not want to make ROC. Very liberating. Yeah, yeah. And he showed me a lot. Like, he never said, you're a lot,

I think I hear a lot. Oh, if you're a lot, not-us-as-2, not-wet-ting-ting-tink-tink. If you're a woman, maybe, you're going to be able to-rum-a-tang-a. You don't-usel-h-h-h-y-z. With my father, he was really, doing what you want.

Like, you don't have to conform. If you want to be tomb, yeah, let me push on this. Does that make you any more or less rebellious by way of his liberating you to do things that you wanted? Oh, interesting. Bandle-in-law, I mean I think I, I bundles, I'm a bundle standard, like,

like, bundle more because adventurier, yeah, demand like skateboarding, and then, like... Surfing. Yeah, now surfing. Yeah, it's more athletic, yeah, not a bundle that like, whathura, parting, that, not, because I have to say,

I can be a bit nerdy. Like, from, from little, from the little, I'm, I used to, this was a really embarrassing secret, But when I was really bored, I would read my school books in advance before I'm going to school because nowadays, everybody is very lucky, you have Kindle, you can have Amazon, can buy book what I can't do Kindle. Yeah, Kind of, I'm...

I'm... That's another topic, but I am definitely in your camp. I love the feeling of books. Nothing beats that, right? And that's not function of generation, if I'm not. I think it's somehow physical or psychological or what, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean, I used to love reading a lot, so a bit nerdy.

So, but badal not like that, but more adventurous, or not, not, not, I don't like to conform, yeah, not like, same than what other, maybe. Okay, but paradoxical, because your dad is very liberating, but you're a bit rebellious against conformity. Yeah, again? But, okay. Then S2, we'll take political philosophy again.

In Australia. Was that an actualization of what you were planning in S-1? Or it was just sort of like a means to an end? Tadiness, I wanted to do S2. So either I go through the academic route, doing a PhD teaching, which I know you're very passionate about, as well, like we're like weir-pirit, because they're like, or maybe,

like in the U.N., UNICEF, some sort of NGO, or even I thought way back when, who know, it's, you know, maybe I should have gone through your path. Inspiracy, I'm not recommending that to anyone. But why, why back to Australia again?

Why not the S2a in Indonesia, like, in America or in Europe? Because Australia, I love the nature there. From the way, for the place, it's not very much, but it's not. But it's not. Australia, not want to take me. When it's uptrak, it's not.

Oh, yeah, well, after the S-1 is not in there. Yeah, because S-1, not disarray. And S-1 is, they're who are accounting, the time, the time, that's really hard skills. If these types of things, that are intangible,

that's more than they think, they're not even, people are also, so we can't even think, so, we're doing to work. But serendipitously, so, you, and actually, that was great.

That was great. Two, 2000? Two, 2006, two, It's been back. Yeah, it's been. Oh, 14-town-lorned.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. And then, back. Back. Back. Back, work. But then, but then, bentrock, because we're

same, cras-kepala. I'm sure you know with your children. You know, you know. See? Yeah. Yeah. You do well in life, have a good relationship. But if, if you're going to be a

competitive, I think. He, so, so, so, so he's like, I'm going to go to my son. Businesses what? Businesses of what? There was business in-pintu, also, business-Airr. So he's like,

many of business, am the in the life's entrepreneur. Now, because Bentrock, he got a chance interview, interview at the company Bapat Lom-Lemong,

private equity fund, the name's Principia Management Group. So that was a great, great opportunity. If we were, again, another pivotal moment. Because I didn't take finance. Tom, Brata, and other than other, yeah, yeah. And, you know, that's like the breeding ground for, I think,

a lot of, you know, us entrepreneurs now. If we look at, you throw a stone, like, there's people from principia. You go to Gojek, you go to any big name, there's a big name, we call it a graduate, well, sent in Pennsylvania. So it was a great breeding ground for, and I thought that was eye-opening.

A lot of really smart people went through there. All very smart Indonesian. Malah, so I'm going to mind. Claysn't it's like, MIT, Harbor. And I was like, oh, kalan, you know. It doesn't count. Yeah, schoolhany, or whatever, or whatever, but I think actually it was good.

So, it was good. So, it was great. Then, then, do Zendidt is how, or when? Yeah, yeah. Pascha the Dunia Private Equity? Actually, Zendid, it was from 2015. This are the kids of crucial from Berkeley, who are three co-founders, three others.

They started in Berkeley. They met there. They had made there. They had made something in Asia. For payments, went through WICOM. Well, one of the mutual friend. So, at the time... Ketemu, where?

Ketemu in Indonesia, at the time they'd already moved to Indonesia. But at that time I remember, I already moved to a different private equity fund. And at that time, it's all the hype, private equity, investing in traditional companies. Now, at one time,

I started hearing a lot about startups. even there that, even there was e-commerce started to fund-raising talking to us in PE. Cuman, can we can't cover that kind of, you know, it's a very different set of parameters

for investment. But some of them some of them, so I remember that I went to an e-commerce company and I learned about how you can be data-driven about opening up a shop online.

And I learned it was more than just photo photo, tarot in any commerce marketplace, the bread and butter is understanding user behavior. How, you know, what kind of things are users going to select? What else do you suggest? I thought it was mind-blowing. But then I thought, you know,

I like fashion a lot, but same like I like art. I don't know that I'm good at it. Maybe it's more enjoyed than Jiao, that, And I still had that mission, right? I want to do something to make a difference here in the country. Now, it's all right. In fact that it was really right. 2015-2016, a lot of fintech companies started sprouting up here.

So I thought that there was something else, there's something else. And maybe a little bit naïp, I was like, finance, fintech, same, yeah. So I was like, it's all about numbers. I love numbers. I love reading financial statements and financial modeling, whatever. I love number crunching. And I thought this is a lot of things. maybe something that's a bit more interesting.

Now, by the kenthali, by the co-founder. From there, we're going to hear, we're pivoting. So, we were peer-to-peer wallet. Moses, from Indonesia, Moses, half Indonesia. So, mom and the other people, the bapani of the Malaysian,

nasatner to Australia. So there were a lot of things we had in common in terms of, oh, from Australia, like, culturally, like, we fit. So we kind of have been... But he's at Berkeley, Berkeley, Berkeley, Our CTO also from Berkeley, but undergrad. Can you imagine? I think it was like 22 or something,

when the company started, or 23. Wow. Masi muddha, belied, even though, even 30. I was like, wow, running a massive company now. So I met them. I thought this was a mission I can get behind. So I joined up, and I thought, okay,

at that, we're pivoting from B2C to B2B. And that really wasn't it. So it's all about how it's how it's about how it's how to build infrastructure of the United. Okay, then how, to do, when you're thinking to build Zendid? After or at a while in private equity?

Yeah, yeah. So, at the time I'm at the moment, what's the more hits is investment in traditional companies, fast-going companies, that, for example, in the bidon restaurant or FMCG, that's the way Indonesia was built,

brick and mortar businesses. Now, the perjalan of the time, we started seeing startups come to play here. At that, the time, in e-commerce, that's really hit-bucked. And at one time, they started to come back to us, the private equity. Eh, be, be able, give funding,

so I was like, what is the startup world? Obviously, we couldn't invest in those kinds of companies, because risk profile different and whatever else. But at a certain time I've ever been to one startup e-commerce it, and then they're going to ask you. And that really, really opened my eyes, because they said, that this e-commerce is not just websites,

like, about there's about there are people model in photo-photo, the baguinen's a lot of data behind it. Data-driven ways of helping consumers, to buy your products. And I thought that was really mind-blowing. To sort of think about things, okay, if you like, if you like a bagu un-unu, maybe, then,

will be exposed to all the bea-unu on the first page. If you like a setu-machem-a-a-a-a-dermination, and it's all very data-driven. It's all this big engine that's running, that's trying to figure out, consumer to what? What's what? So I was really, really fascinated by that.

But again, I think much like, you know, I like art, but I don't think I'll be necessarily good at doing art. It's the same, right? I like fashion, but I don't think that's not where I think I should be. I love numbers, I love reading financial statements. I still felt like, as a person who's maybe a little idealist, I need to do something more that can contributing to the economy or to the country.

And at that, that was that by then, through mutual friends, they can like to Moses, which is one of the co-founders. So Moses, and the other co-founder, Bo, and the other one also called Juan, they all came from Berkeley.

They were, they've been in Y Combinator, and got a Dana also. That's a big name. Very, very big name. Came to Indonesia. And then they're this is a moment that's a moment that's right,

that's a good to make something in fintech. At the time, I think, 2015, 2016, that fintech, it's really very, in Indonesia, but, well, just, it's just, let's landas,

right, in the very, very early stage. And Moses, who, even, they're here, in here, you know, we're going to do withro, and at the time,

they were going to pivoting from peer-to-peer app, so like wallet, pivoting to a B2B business. So I was kind of like, oh, B2B business that resonates, because I've seen a lot of these brick and mortar businesses. And I was like, yeah, how do we help these guys?

And how do we figure out something? So we can catch up with the rest of the world, like, in terms of digital payments. From, I came, I joined, I started out, well, we all did anything and everything together, but I started up by building a product. How did people that worked? Wow, there was a room, little, then, there were like 8, or 10, 20.

I think at the time, maybe like 8 to 10. We're just soo-couped-cubed-b. We convinced a whole group of friends from ITB for joining us. Then they're not talking about, maybe because of the name of Y Combinator, or maybe maybe must be able to be it. Yeah, we'll just, we're just to try and try at a startup.

Back on one of one of them making comic, that's like, now I'm making comic, because why, because why, joining something, making a difference, and then, dot-da-da-tom, lo, this is not a can't-cantor in-room. He's making comic, now, it's lucied-buck-buck-buck-buck.

And, emmonger, we're really, in the room, I'm still in a little bit in pangpole. Yeah, all right in garacy, that's in the room. Right, right. Right, right. And the room is it too much more than we're getting riddened, even we even we've even one

for startup line, so they can't open office in that, so yeah, started out there. When you, when it was, it was like a regular employee just? Actually, I was like a regular employee. So in the very real sense, I feel like I do have to fight to earn my stripes to get to where I am today, always.

But that's okay. That's kind of, I'm down for that. Okay. That's really, I was like, oh, I really want to go somewhere early stage. If you're going to 10 people, perfect. Pallengen, most startups die. So I was like, oh, send it. Yeah, right? 99.9.9% is it's 99.

percent, that's not going to make it. And I thought, well, if six-buner again, not if six months not there, I really want to do something else anyway. I want to learn how to be in a smaller company to build up from scratch. And obviously, it was like six months. Oh, 12 months, oh, 12 months, oh, two months, oh, I'm okay. Okay, I guess we're here.

Okay, we're good. Okay, yeah. So that was really where it started. In a house, I started as a product manager. So, so I'm doing how to make product like how how much, really, yeah, in a sense, from all right from a very real sense.

What I mean is in a very real sense, until my husband's his step mara. I dropped everything. Dropping salary, melepaska, who's going to talk about your husband. Oh, yeah, yeah, okay. My husband.

No, no, no, no, about this. Yeah, yeah. I took a risk. I think in a very real sense. Very real sense. Learns a lot. Has to learn coding? I did it to try to understand how to work with developers.

Dullo, from private equity, tibbae, the lingo, I don't understand, not get sprint that's what, not what's what design is what, not what IUX is what, that if you can button in this, and this drop-down, it's like how,

how, how the other is, also still cuckoo-bucked-buck. So yeah, learn everything on the job, basically. Now, all of all. Coding, not much, I'm realistic about it. But if products, yes. Enough to get it, if people are talking about what. Exactly, yeah.

If, if, from being very product-centric, now, mindset's, has, uh, has, been a, to be a real much about automation. Because I love it, I love it. I think it's a really fascinating field. What if you're going to be way, u.s.

The customer experience, and the psychology behind it, I think it's very, very amusing, right? Like if you press a bun, what do you expect, and how do you lead people to think about things a certain way? If you, if, if, if, if, people not just about one, two, three, three, two, three more steps, don't worry, right? Or even psychology of things like white-hailing apps,

where driver's, it's just five more rights. Those numbers are arbitrary, not have a good-a-upon-a-up people, but I'm going to pick up more people, more people. So I think that sort of things, very powerful and very fascinating. And of course, not to be misused, but to be used for good. Zendid is now, now, is now that's now that's

who's being made up a company that's a couple of many. Yeah. Tell, yeah. Yeah, um, when we're from

we're going to this is again the beauty of being in a startup, it levels up the playing field. Because many people, who, who,

It's not even to make startup that's a big, it doesn't matter if you're male, female, young, old, people are more open to working with you to talking to you. Bede very much than when I was like in traditional, right? Even for me, I'd ever be a partner in a private equity fund? How can't if everyone, the people who are people who are, a lot of deals happen,

not in the boardroom or in a meeting room, when I was lunch, dinner, sometimes, you know, whatever else. Yeah, exactly. Or golfing or whatever else, okay, it's, I seriously questioned it. But from the Saganidt, it really, really leveled the playing field, and it allowed me to hire more women. And it turns out there are a lot of young women out there.

If the kids, in Indonesia, is that woman or a lady, they all they're all over, open so much of the people, many people, many people who are going to having a family. That's when you see the drop-off. But there are so many bright young people here, including the women.

So for us, we've been very supportive. So, first, many people are many people who are and the children, who are all of all of them, who are doing with us, developers or on the business side, everybody was joined and funded.

Porsi of the prempuant is, how per cent from total? If in operational, it's more than 50%, even more than 60% from work force. Even my direct reports, I think it would be 60% to 70% women.

Okay. So it's been amazing. Actually, you know, I don't do it on first. It's not like, if you're like, if you're going to be a man. It crushed me to be a man report for you. Really? No. I mean, if you're a lot of percent. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's the same thing, that's a little bit of a problem. Even for my direct reports, increasingly, we're trying, not, not, not, not, not, that's wrong, to,

see, senior hires. Yeah. in the talent pool are male, chowel, because there are many of the middle. So, it's a long-sayang-sayang-sall. Because if you're a senior hire, even from headhunter's even,

even, it's not even given a candidate of a peremptuant, because not many. So I think that's why we have this initiative. That's not because of the kind of the but the kind of minate because they have a quagiband that. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Or maybe the option-in-to-wajibing-vah-tangor-tang-a, or quagibban, yeah, and gulis-in-unusin, yeah, and gulis-a-lawful, that's... That's... Not even...

Not even if I look at it, even, we've ever had been someone who, because he's to be to be able to be able to and to get a work because he's just of the work because,

but, although, skill-set-not-not-one-two-tacken-tina-tina-ture two years, two years not work, skill set is not. But a lot of people... With WFHA, like this, it mustin it's more than, what, yeah, to entice a woman to work. I think it's harder.

It's more. Why? Why? Imagine just, if, I'm, okay, I'm a pre-empoena be a work. I'm to a, or, maybe,

there's a sister, and, there's people who can't Now, I'm as a woman, to work from work, and the other, and the other, has school in-room, how do you do that? How do you juggle? I've had, actually, experience myself,

who's at work at Sandit. Wadduh, the, no, just be be lausage class this, because I must be working. So they have to make those choices. Dotsu-due is in-room? Right, because two-due. And if, if, if,

one's there's one who's not there who's been who are who can't be here, just to dookin, don't. Not can't, now, this can't be able laptop, so, so there's who's who have who's who go to , hey, hear the guru, have who have who have to make PR. So I think work from home is harder, much harder. Okay.

And which is why we have some initiatives now to try to help these guys. Getting teachers for the kids. Sending things like even food and everything to working moms, beer not-mast-masa-masa. Because, you know what, again, it's all about privilege as well.

Some of them, from from privilege, there are maybe babysitter, there are helpers. But, but I'm in, I run operations. So I can see people on the ground. That's maybe, work really operational, maybe not for them for hiring,

or to have a pay or a help-a-pantu-exra or even super. So it's really, really important for companies to actually think about this and meaningfully do something while we work from home. Talk about the business model of Zendid as it is today and going forward. Yeah, so Zendid itself, we're a B2B payment infrastructure player.

It's maybe a buzzword, so it's going to be more under-darm. In the barraiser that's right? Right, right. So, we're, it's like a pipa-an for payeran. If the BASA-O-Wam, like a perusan logistic, but for money. So if there business that want to go digital, need to receive the payeran,

that we're who's who's we're giving up to give up to the paper-a-a-a-cardi. So we're using the number of carto, to bank, maybe to visa, card-credit, and soagueness. If, if there merchants that have to pay-roll and all of all kinds, we also, who's just,

like, the truck to move-mindhacking the money. So Zandit, it, I think, providing an equalizing, again, equalizing, service, so that the companies, or small, have developers or or people IT, or even, can go to zero.

Profail is more? The profile is more in the middle-ca-at-as, or the little-keachial? For the person's, if, from the volume of transaccy, the number of transactions that if, if, enterprise, because customer our customer, we're using, for example, Trafalocca,

and, sogain. they'll be much of the number of transactions. But if we look the number of people are on our platform, number of businesses, it skews towards SMEs. Even, I've just seen the statistics now, I think more than 3,000 SMEs sign up per month through the pandemic. So, over in Indonesia, or more Java-centric,

or just well-distributed? We're all over. Although, okay, in reality, the ones who are more tech literate, will be Jawa, Bali, Sumatra, not even the same too-dilosk. But, but many, sometimes, that's kind of, okay, we're going to do so. And that's also we can't help.

So if I'm going to book a talk about Shopify, can just send it as payment provider. Okay. This if I look phenomena in Tjongok year ago, payment that digital, that's two-kable $26 trillion dollars. But if I see in Indonesia, it's still about $100 million. I mean, it's just mind-boggling.

Upside is like how to payment, and, and, you know, it's just not going to be able to be payment It's, it's, it's, it's more more than, whatever that can be impugn't include, including,

including, right, we're going to make all of all infrastructure that's need to the merchants or the for go-digit- But,

but, that's, to come back to discussion about the other Tiyok and in this. If there,

can, there, there's a desalplied-inan from, from, okay, all, we're go digital, from the government and from tech players. Indonesia, actually, really, really, because potency is,

I think, big, but, challenges also, but, from the we have 17,000 Ulau, how do you make all those people

and those islands go digital? Yeah. So the infrastructure challenge, I think, much bigger. How do you even, to switch from cash to digital, that's something that I think is going to be very interesting to tackle in the next five to ten years.

Yeah. Aparag in Indonesia, it's still 2G or 3G, but there's no, even there's 4G, even, maybe I've got to people who's still in the penjatim, which is...

Because he's just, because he's not to be it's not to be detected. Maybe, yeah, not know. But, but I'm going to, but I'm going to say SMS, yeah. But, no, not bays-mast, you, no, can't get to be, but he's too, telephone just, oh, okay. So those challenges are really interesting to solve, I think. But this, if we look,

if we're gaw to what's been what's been around by the Hong Kong, that's, it's kind of, for Indonesia can be able to for Indonesia can be able to multiple two-kali, from PDB, for payment. Now, just, just per 10, right? Right, right.

You're talking about 20x in how long, that, from 10 to 2x to 2. I actually think, given the fragmentation of payments here in market, I don't think it will happen in the next two, three years. But maybe, maybe 10 years.

Okay, okay. I think we can get there. Why? Because, while even payments are a fragmented industry, but players are many, and there are lots of money coming in to support this digital infrastructure. And maybe if people think of payments, it's like wallet, go-pay, Oval.

But not, for industry that can be more be be more than that. So, there are players that, if I say, we're less sexy, right? not like what wow, there's in billboard, and many different. But we that's, it's just like mandate, Bapar President, for infrastructure in general, to make a road,

making toll, making a plabuan. Payment infrastructure also has had, so that the businesses B2C, also, but I think, potentially, because everyone's much because everyone where else can you go? The Western world is all about credit-combed. It's all about credit cards, it's saturated.

China has its own industry, it's been very different. Same with India. Next where? While we're the dark horse, Indonesia, many people don't know Indonesia, even though it's about it, but we're the fourth most populous country in the world. ICLAN BKPM, 50% under 30, 50% of population.

So yeah, the ingredients, The ingredients are there? I think we're, you know, by way of what would have been announced recently, is that specs the platform travel, or right sharing, and the common combination two different digital in Indonesia? From what I'm seeing and from what I'm hearing, we are in the conversations,

yeah, right, amongst those guys that are just basically in control of liquidity, or massive liquidity. Now, that's, I think, I'm not very bad-bend than five, or, or, like, 10, where if we were going to Indonesia, that we're from from Bali, too. But right, right.

Right. But, right. I know Indonesia because these guys came over to my office, they talked about this, potential transaction. That's already more than it, well, it's, if I think, this, it's great for for companies digital or who's who want to digitalization

of it. Yeah, right. And by the way, for us, ourselves, we're this, this is the company Indonesia's the first that's in the Combinator.

Yeah, I know. We're one of the only investments for some of our VCs in Southeast Asia. Not humbling, maybe humble bragging, but what I mean is this, right? All the B2C companies, they're, everyone knows, wow. That's an oxymor. But what I'm saying is, you know, I'm proud that we, Zendid as a company, are also bringing this name, Indonesian name to Silicon Valley.

Really. Very. Sometimes I feel like, wow, when I sit in those boardrooms in America for pitching, I'm like, then look at logo logo there, there's Facebook, there Dropbox, there Slack, whatever else. I'm like, we're lucky, but this is also amazing to bring this name to that table. So exactly. I think the tech industry revolutionizing how we behave in market, but also bringing Indonesia name to the world. We're really proud of that.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that I think it's going to be marginally much easier in the next five to ten years to promote Indonesia, or talk about Indonesia, without having to go through the routines that we have to go through the routines that we have to go the first five pages, you can skip the first five pages, you go to page six. Right, right. Now, this if, if I'm not a massive, not coincidence, but opportunity, where liquidity, this is like, big liquidity, this is a lot of the M2,

or the money-beredar in the world, especially in the negarer of the major-maju, you could argue it's probably around $100 trillion. This is bossen with the only at level 0. Yeah, right. And this, and the duet kind of like air. He's been trying gravitatization and democratic.

Just how we can just how we can show up, how we can't be a lot of that, so, narrations in Indonesia, this is great, right, but not just a number of the islands that's just, but, but, but, but, but, but, so I think it's going to be awesome for many people of people Indonesia,

or anyone else who are Indonesianists, who want to capitalizeize. Right, and what I see, actually, this generation, startup, who's already today is now, very, very lucky. If they're working hard, there,

someone out there there, there, there, who want to try to invest in you. But what I see in Indonesia Indonesia, which I think is something you're very passionate about, is education. Because many of them are being about it, but maybe, maybe,

not know how to the kind of how of the same. I'm now, I'm also, many mentoring start-up, and there are some like, wow, this really, some amazing ideas. Maybe if they have

who have who are like what financial institutions are like, how investment is like, it's probably portents to be a big. But there's also the impian that's a big way to get there. So I believe the key is the right kinds of education. I mean, you're doing a lot in public policy, but on the tech side, on financial education, financial literacy,

that's really, because potency is very big. Because there's a lot of people who can tapping into it. You know, not too long ago. We're, we're, gobrake, geberag meja, makeiring how to we can't get in jarum inclusion of money from 30%. Now, tibetibet-purgent.

This is very correlates with digitalization. And this, can, accelerations is a lot of years. So it's very much it's very much it's in the same time in-clusi-go-oangan that's been to get 80-90-percent, where we have been able to be that we're much in the city, in the plosok, and, it's all access.

Right. Not only access re-kening, but modal. Yes, right. That's what's the important, because I always that we're not sure of great ideas. We're only short of money.

And it's just how we can't even just to be able to be able to be able to with the value-enlishings is a the other. Yeah, that's right hailing apps, I have to say, to thank, to educate the market on how to go digital. Because how that's super impactful, in my view, is that's the other object in the people, that maybe if you were the same

the other, the Pachetet that I said, which is how many, 10 digits, 12, 11, I don't know. That's still the button for the Pets. Now, everybody has been educated for free how much the way to use something online. Tentoo, there are also social media. We're also the most get-toll, yeah. But with these right-hearing apps

to make a lot of the first hurdle is going away. So, many of the people from the people who can't may have to Jakarta. They're learning, to find a carer, can be driver, can be, uh, ojerk. I think that is a huge equalizing feature.

So we have those guys to thank for sure. Yeah. So, I'm quite optimistic on the inclusion of the money. But, If I think I'm going to cupas more than how platforms like Zendid, it can answer

the question or aspirations how to be able to down to the sunjangang. Yeah, right? This is a bit of a political or philosophical topic, not economic just. If I'm in the end of this I've seen with some naras-sumber about how we can't,

not just to make-indalikin'n, it's just gunga-knexingangang-ness. Now, it doesn't jive with the incline of financial inclusiveness. So, I would argue that it's maybe be correlations with the realtor-can-a-fellation that are some oligarchical forces that, or, that, to co-optation or to make up

the publican and not to abhorredistribusisciatraan. Now, I would vouch to how, that's just great-like like Zandit or other, to how can't help to opang,

not only inclusion of the money, but, so, equality, is there, and real. That, wow, That's, wow, the question is hard, but I'm going to ask to ask you to ask them.

Because, it's true. So, why, I'm passionate very about about making infrastructure this. Because if you were back back, for Go Digital, maybe, to make platform, to make local online or e-commerce, is very expensive,

and mahal-as-cali. So, only the companies' people that can do you do. have a developer, have people, and whatever else. Now, why I'm even be beguugug-b-b-b-b-b-b-bent. Semenixted, when I joined,

I'm passionate because the product first I made, focusing really to UMKM. So, we make product mirip-merip marketplace, but there's a checkout page. Okay, that product didn't succeed, but that's another conversation.

That's me, my learning as product manager. Okay, that's fine. My second product, don't worry, it succeeded. So, now, Sendit Edition also. I hope I had an impact on that. But my point is that, with any other platforms like Sandit, it's, it's, it's, um,km,

to get, you can say, go digital, or whatever you call it, movecae online, and get access from different from people with gampang. So, the example, like, we're like, we're going to develop

product, that's, okay, if you want to go to go to watch via WhatsApp, can, give invoice link. Okay, if you want

to do you want to Instagram, same a okay, maybe one day the impuance you can, you can, you can do with one,

we can do all back from, by the way, that if you want to have someone, want to make marketplace,

platform's just just the not using to codeing again. So we are trying to equalize in a very real sense

how people can be able to move into era this, but those who may be less skilled are empowered and have easy tools to do so. So I think it's super-duper important. Of course, as you said, there's also from the part of the permodal that must be taken up.

But, but, so on infrastructure working capital, need also that basic basis like this, which are used to the people who are more more than way.

Contoing that's one person from Bali, it was a lot of so, he's offline. With the end upending, there's any who's going to go to Bali, learn to massac. Now,

they're pivoting, they're doing the food online. They're going to make a to- and this is the beauty, I think, of tech. If the time of music coding,

I remember that I was doing, by the way, HTML, make web page, it really, oh, so, this. Now, no, no, you have a phone, you sign up, you take photos of your food, and then you can register to our platform, take up myrared, click okay, you can start online. And that's the beauty of it. And with a little bit more literacy,

you can immediately empower. Exactly, with a bit more literacy, that's what, what, like, all right, It's also to go online. All right, I'm going to talk about something that's been in the conversations of many payment guys. Bitcoin.

Okay. Well, the good old question, yeah. Now, if we look, okay, like, Bitcoin is, this, the camp that believes that Bitcoin is the cool thing, it's, it can, it's, that this, decentralization this, this can beawebawak-accuntability that's been in in the participants in transaction.

Recourse and also transparency. Yeah, right? Dibandingan centralization, transaction that's this is that's still-in-gap, current transparent. If I see the transaction Bitcoin, 2019, it's been

$1.3 trillion dollar blockchain-bit coin. Blockchain enabled Bitcoin. If Visa, card credit, it's $8 trillion. I mean, just by looking at the shared data, it's so easy to just think in no time. This will be quite. Card to credit, be lampawe by Bitcoin, right?

What's... I want to take you to a philosophical place. place. Right. Yeah. After we talk about this, you know, how this, you know, how much, this,

or blockchain? If we talk about blockchain, blockchain itself is, actually, you're having some sort of decentralized ledger, that money in, money out,

it's, I mean, I'm oversimplifying, it's okay. Please, nobody get angry at me. But if we talk This is a platform that's But if we talk cryptocurrencies, yes, I think that could be the way to go in many markets.

But if in Indonesia, in, I think, I'm not the way to go in many markets. But if I think, I'm not that's hard. Because why it's hard, from the regulator, maybe, can, this is not the appropriate way to go. And I'm going. I think I'm not really, that push and pull. If I'm a big believer in government, right? I don't think it should all be free market.

Everyone, coccar-catsin, you know, some dystopia of decentralized, you know, little towns, right, that you run on your own. No, I think government has a place, and government should be there to protect its people. Now, because of tension that, that's, from the market for trading purposes. Maybe for those side of things, I think it's appropriate.

But if for for the payment, it's difficult the government can't be able to come. And why by nature, the government because it takes away the power from the government. It decentralizes everything. You don't know. Yes, it's transparent to those who are in the platform. But not transparent to...

to the guys who are running the country. So if you're talking about, we're not know, don't know, don't they're going to get to where. We don't know if they're laundering, to say, hey, maybe it's actually quite appropriate for the government here to say, hey, maybe it's not the

Indonesia to make a barren through crypto. Does it prevent the government one day from creating its own digital currency? Probably no. I think that's probably the way to go anyway, right? Yeah. It seems like an inevitability.

Yes. Yeah. But at the end of the day, and again, I'm oversimplified. If it's government-based, yeah, same as, same with the behavior will be quite similar, but digital in nature with the digital ledger. And maybe that's probably going to be the way to go. I think some parts of Europe is already trialing that,

if I'm not saying, they already rolled something out. Oh, and a few other places. They're trialing it. Now, this, I'm saying, that's crypto, how it's going to go up? Because of them. Because two alasan.

The first, the people are more more worried about the dollar. Because it's being blimpah-limphing the pencatacan so it's no longer as finite as it has been

the number that So, it's more infinite, it's more difficult to assign value to each unit that's bredar. So that I think is one structural reason for why the alternative, call it Bitcoin, or crypto or whatever, has been going up. And the two, what I've learned,

this, many people are many of the money this, this, Because of the crypto is this class asset that's the most of... ...withalcone with class asset other than they're called to diversify, when you want to hedge, you need something that's completely or significantly uncorrelated.

So that serves the convenience. Yeah, right? Now, this, this is, it's been in the in unctus in which, which is be jubble, really. Now, this, this, and how we have to be called it.

And how much to the way we'ller it, we have investations in class asset that's convenient, but we also have to make diversification and hedging. So, maybe, in a time of the I'm not looking at the corrective the value proposition of crypto.

So if people are going going to be going to be to $300,000, you know, after thinking about this, that thing could hold water. Potential is there? Potential is there, but back to when you think about what's happening here in market, in Indonesia,

please, please, get educated first. But, but who have money, not in here, right? Who's the money in America, in Europe, Barat, in Japan, in, in China, in Korea, they're beingung. They only can buy a share, buy bond, buy lukesan,

buy property. No, no, there's other, we're we see the crypto market. We see crypto trading platforms here also booming now, right? I meet with some of these guys, and I'm a traditionalist, where I'm a traditionalist,

that I'm being puttaping with physical asset. Call it gold. But this, this is men from the 71, did tiadakan. I want to take you to a philosophical because I think it dwells in how money behaves and how money is going to behave going forward. If we look,

emas, that's what's the must that's the best up the money-breder it's not there's not as back-up for the money-breder. Call it dollar. emas, can be travel in time, because value proposition is always do you, but the money does not travel in time.

It travels in place. So, philosophically, amalgamation of emas with money, it's convenient, right? Yes, okay. But this, it's putusin, It's not just, now, now, now, blockchain,

which is a better for the main blockchain that's for the penitain philosophically, it's convenient. This is, it's been in space, can travel in time. From from around to mer, okay, as long as there pipa. Right, right.

And over time, it has traveled increasingly in value. So, philosophically, this, how am I'm matacken blockchain? Wow, why need to be partak-can, no, I'm just, you know, I'm curious, because you were arguing for the point that, okay, we need to be educated first. Yeah, right?

This we have concerned with the commutain this for things that are not under-graphing-lark-been but philosophically, it actually checks the box for the importance of something that can travel over time, and travel over space. I mean, I agree in the long run. I think it will probably go in that direction.

In Indonesia, from where we haven't, that's what we've been able to, yeah, maybe there's a pedopat. I said that even consolidation of payments, we're talking about Viat. Just, you know, your good old currency. That's just, maybe, 10-year, we're able to see

we can be able to be coming like other countries, if we're like in the Western world, or somewhere like in the Tjongok. So, for something like this crypto, I think it'll take a little bit longer. Maybe I'll say,

we'll get back, we'll let's watch. We both could be wrong. But this is a discussion, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think it's, maybe inevitable, yeah? I think so.

This is kinescayaan. And then, and then, and then, and it's just a win, right? And it's just makes sense. Because it's an answer tocosongan that exists since the one 2001, as the time it's the stardard-emas, to back up money or money or money-breder. Yeah, that's a matter of what the governments want to do about it.

Exactly. Yeah, that's just the question. or to try resistance, right? Now, I want to, okay, we've talked about until today, right? Let's focus on the future. How do you see the future of money? When, is the people, that's not going to be,

all of, all of, just, all of, just, in China, can already very pervasive. I was, when in Tyeongk, in 2019, want to drink coffee, I've got out of remi, they're talking to-like by the people-jaghan. Because he, maybe like this, like wich-we-pay or what.

I'm asking, why? This is the same, the way it's the same, he said, I'm alas, because at the end of the day I have reconcilia- Right, right. Do you foresee in the near foreseeable future? In Indonesia, not not...

I think there's several things that have to move together, for it could be. The first, the literacy, education. So, Indonesia, the behavior is really great because mobile phone penetration, what is something like 120% or 130%?

Many people have, even not one, but 2, or even 3. I wonder why. I don't want to get into that conversation. But yeah, it's very fascinating. I think we're one of the largest users, Facebook, Instagram.

We're we're trained for Go Digital. But why, if the soal of the money is not like that. There are some of one, you need to educate yourself. Like I said, write hailing apps, even e-commerce players that subsidized. It's also to be able to beheavirals. Now, all of them are always, top-up, transfer, bank transfer, so it's moving in that direction. But, come back again, we don't even have to go too far.

Like, we go to West Java. the farmer that's the that's the day-to-hary, the nafka-ne it's the most, yeah, a day, maybe, about $50,000 or $10,000. What they're using digital? To, the money's a day can't even

be able to think about, but I think there, there, sir, sir, in that way do we move up that standard, you know, maybe you probably understand that behavior a little bit, That's one part. The second part is the infrastructure ready. And then the third part, are people educated to go in that direction.

So I think if those three things can work out, if three things can work out, if three three can work out, maybe we're all, like in China. And by the way, if you talk about China, it's all, people are all with wichet and so much, even who are doing in Rukau and so again, even, I'm sorry, to the tucang-minted-minted just to pay-pays,

oh, I'm not. Oh, I'm going to buy t-suit. Yeah, we're going to get out of the kitt. Yeah, I'm not generalizing. But, yeah, it's just, weepa. But you'd be surprised some parts in America still use that. You cannot even solve that.

At this, here, there's not. Oh, yeah. I remember in a chat, probably a very, very long time. I haven't for a long time. But I think it would be kind of cool to just be able to, you know, non-tunay. Oh, definitely. But infrastructure is not yet, but if we're talking about, I think you know here things are very fragmented.

Why? Because there are different groups, there are different brands. And they're really you don't come to where you do you're doing this just. If you want to move, it's to make swit. So I know this buzzword interoperability

or whatever else, but it's important, right? If we're just for long-lame it, it's just, how we can be interact with interaction between one platform and platform other than platform line. It's not, not maybe we're going to do with all.

What I mean is this, if I'm just one bank, but if I'm transferred to other, maybe the other than the other than it's more than how it's a lot. It's a barrier for everybody to go online as well. And I'm a big believer that this is where the government can come to play. To set regulation, how it's the way to standardization to standardization some method of payers. For example, from Bank Indonesia, there's a really massive effort.

I think that's going to make a really big difference. But not just curious, but what about the payment rails itself? Pipa how about the payment rails itself? Pipa it's how can be with the pipa there's now that's the switching network. Not all of it's not going to be able to beaubunging network that. What that means is, payment is not equalized. It's only a number instances that can do

to do that, that means that what actually that's what I'm going to come, oh, if it's not, cause it's not. So I think, to me, if that's a problem that's a problem that can't help, we can, like in China, like in Tionkok, even who buy tissue in the road,

maybe, while, why not? Yeah, that would be the dream. Want to use jurist, what, But the beauty of it is here, with there with there's many people are trying to tackle that issue. Even, even from, from, even, even, e-commerce platforms,

not only the people buy-to-buyntake, not fintech is not pin-mimimingam, but fintech is anything to do with financial technology. Even, the people of e-commerce, and, other than, they're also, they're now, now, try to be basically a fintech company. Because they understand that that's the way to go going forward.

Gojek is not right hailing or grab. They're at the end of the day, they're a fintech company. We're going to look, there's a sector that's discerptuble, aghasa, and gauplotation, andgaple to some extent pariwisata. But I'm still seeing, there are some sectors in Indonesia that sticky.

Not can't disrupts, pertanian, energy, real estate. Yeah, right? In what way? Not able to be disrupted. Not significantly disrupted. There are some of the people in there. In the partan, there are, there are, some that we know.

But it does require much more disrupting. disruption, for better efficiency, for better effectiveness. Yeah, in the way not only the hulunit, so we can see productivitist and production that's more than production that's more but efficiency distribution from hula to hilier, and the penympurnan of wajah or wujut in hilier. That, if, I think,

oh, and agriculture represents about 13% of the GDP. 13% of PDB our PDB we're. I definitely agree that requires more disruption. But the problem is, if, if, if, people are, penderptu-to-do, what? It's... ...comely to infrastructure it, right.

Even, now, we're back, we're from, in Jawa, I'm going to be in BAS JAPA, because I'm going to go to talk, it can take two hours,

it can take three hours, it can take nine hours, the cost of logistics is so high. Yeah. For you to have any sort of something that's grown three hours away on the table, the cost is exuberant. So when I think our infrastructure again can be fixed, and didamping with disruption, I agree, in fact.

Contonial platform that giving access from petani to a market, like farm direct to table, only then, maybe it's maybe. I mean, I'm less than to know about real estate, or maybe from other things like oil and gas, I'm less in the know about that. But certainly, those types of sectors, the potential, I agree, is very, very big.

Cuma, we're making that logistics problem first. Yeah. I'm only trying to make the point that for those Gen Z members, yeah. The way of this is there's been so many. Baja many, people. So it's just, yeah, if I said, if I said, oh, do you know, the first wave is just,

like, you know, it's just, you know, wait, wait, but Apple, Microsoft, too, in the 80s, but Google and Amazon in the 90s. Then you got Facebook, and you got Netflix in the 2000s. And if you take the valuations of all these, they're gigantic.

Yeah, and look, didn't you could lose 10 to 20 years and still be in the, no. Yeah, definitely. And look, just because you're not the first, to do it, not it's not it can't disrupts. We're not the first payment player here. Google was not the first search engine.

So, yeah, I agree. On existing industries, opportunities are much and exactly, we are scratching the surface. The other, the other, other, on every other industry, there is that potential for tech to change the world. That's my big belief. I think if I'm in some of a few

acara, how, if we're looking at, if we're not only sector, energy, peternation, peternation, pediccan, and, property, pari-wisata, if I see,

contribution of pari-wisata international is one-four percent from PDB. We're bandinging with Thailand, the 16 to 20 percent. Yeah, I see, see, this is, this is,

still, and we can produce. Now, I've been asked, back how many unicorn, this, to the other, easily a hundred. Yeah, right. Yeah, right. In 10, 20, 20, time, 100, it's an easy,

if we're a good man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and, and, and, it's more, and then, there's one that there with the accelerator, and so that's all over,

so that our eyes are all over, with opportunities what's just that in the world. I mean, I'm not from, even from, from, from, making concept of, but, but, like, I said, before, many here, even founders, business people, businessmen and women, or entrepreneurs, who are entrepreneurs,

who's who came to me. Tessa, ajarin, don't, pagebook this like this, okay or not? Tessa, there investor that's an investor that's going to be, this is this is, or not? Tessa, I mean, I'm really, my company, so, so there's what, there's going to be that kind of,

how we can't really, how we can't make sure in a way, win-win for both parties. Or, investor what's what what is to try? So, education in that respect as well, for generations that's already

to be able to for being anterpenu, it's a big believer in liberal arts because it opens up your mind. But I'm also a big believer, because I'm also a big believer, so I'm in operations, yeah, how do you execute well?

So you have to learn real things, real tangible things, that can be used in your real life, in your career, in your professional life. And that, In my world I, even, we who in industry, has started to support.

I'm a new thing, wow, if you can make as well if I can make as well, why not? Why not? Because there are so many people who need it, there are so many people who reach out, why not? And, back again, again,

to sometimes, mentalitas. At this, if the mentality traditional, I have knowledge, I don't want to share with you. because if I share, then you do better. Which is why, you know, you're lecturing, you're having a school, that's amazing. It should be the other way around. It should be, I have knowledge, I'm going to share this with you so, you can't success.

Because, look, knowledge is one thing, execution is another, just because I tell you now, eh, Pagita, this, for making kentak, gino, but, before, don't know, can, can, okay, let's go, Tessa, I have the energy to start one. It's not really variables.

to attain success. But blood and tears, it's really real, because, you're sent it. There's some because payment not to give it, jato bedar-dara, try to mongruising payment of people. More politely, 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration. Exactly.

So, again, I'm a big believer. Infra and every sort, education included. Penidiccan is important, here not only only basic just basic but what's more real world for startups. How to raise funds? How do you run your books? As in like, how do I get to profitability?

I feel very privileged to have learned that through being in the investment world. That's really, I'm sure you also saw that value. Bealejar, look at industry, being, better with many entrepreneurs, business, how did they get it up and running? More people should have that knowledge.

should have that knowledge. Okay. Where do you see Indonesia? 2045? 2045? That's 24 years from today. Okay. You'll still be what, in the 50s or in the 40s?

60s, maybe? If, math, okay, now, come back, too, now, now. Go to the future. Where do I see Indonesia? And be inspirational in the sense that could we be as big as China or India? Oh, totally.

Yeah. I mean, what's interesting from Indonesia, and I've just expanded to Philippines. So we can also look at people in other countries and learn also from some investors who sharing about the development in other Southeast Asia markets. Uniqued Indonesia is, the one of Indonesia, first, we're resilient, like I said, from SCBD, to Kuningan,

can one, one, one, one, resilient and resellent. We're really, we're okay with things that are known. That's great. That's great. We will try something once. Yeah, okay, because there's promo, but we're willing to try something once, yeah.

So we're something once, yeah. So we're adventurous, we're brandy. And then three, I think we're super duper created. And I think it's because of the first two things. Because of many things, many things that are being creative, and I hear this first hand. Our CTO,

he's from Berkeley, before, he's been in the company Silicon Valley. I asked, from the DEF, the better is, as Silicon Valley, where does this is jaguant man? He said, if it's a technical skill, okay, Silicon Valley, because of the

from when it's upon, but he said, but if creativity is, you're going to think about the box. So, to be inspirational. Those three things, it's made formula, that we're, if we're

if we're not success, we have malo, because all the ingredients are there. So again, back to education, education, infrastructure, from the from the company, and from the government, I mean, for 25 years, why not? Why not?

25 years, we all can go digital, everything on your phone. Even, petanee, can trading on phone. I think definitely very doable. How many doable? Wow. Well, now, now, now, is there about, now, now, five, yeah? Now, this we're a little bit.

It's a little bit of the other than it. It's not calculate that. We'll not calculate that. No, I think it's been, we've slowed a little bit, if we've slowed a little bit, if we're from the unicorns, two, or three. Maybe we're experiencing a bit of a slump. But, but, like you said,

125 years, wow, that, it's really, It's really, it's really. I hope so. I hope so. That is okay-la, it's going to be a massive wealth creation. But I'm hopeful that it would be a massive wealth redistribution. I think we'll reach these inflection points, there are another, I mean, something we cannot even imagine today.

Maybe, maybe, 10, will have inflection point. structural, if I think I think that's that's what I'm not going to be in here is, the money that's in Indonesia. For some time, it's from now, it's from the world

that's not. And I'm not against it. But if we're not going to move with posture of the bigiaghanes, that more can't make up on the national, and the sameananan national,

and stability, political, social, and economy, has had a initiative from us from us to to hand that can bechuracan for the penit of the bit of the new, yeah, right? If that's more to alian, Bapa,

I don't know how that can be done. Today, today it's hard. Wow, it's... Wow, it's... ...wasas if we look M2 in Indonesia, it's more than 40% to the PDB. But if in the negara,

and in the UNAGRA MAJU, America, and in Asia-Tengara just, it's 125% to 150% M2, there's to be more liquidity. Yeah. Now, that liquidity can come from two-arra, from it, from from,

or from, from, or from, you know, or not want, to check it. Now, that somebody needs to decide between now and 2045. We want it how we want it, so there's a kind of a kind of from the world and the money from the down. Tentune to be much more than,

it's more than, but I've just entered the super cycle of low inflation, low interest rate, if any, I think, potentially deflationary. At some point. Now that, we have to we have to be in Indonesia, not that's not going to be able to be in 24 years

to be it to be able to be it, that it's to be able to be it, to what we can, what, you know, menopang, indiscriminately, sectors of the sectors that have been now, if we're going to be from out, it's a bit discriminatory.

Because they only want to look like that's just on just on the time in the cycle of seven-torn. Because the money has been downed-lang in seven-tall. But if, if we can, we can slaraskan, can do it's durations 30-town or 20-town, you know, we can't be able to be able to becky-sabar. Now, that's definitely, I think, on government policy, policy, is it.

It's encouraging it, how, we can also help out in the private sector. But, come back, if from that it's easier right now to raise outside of the No-brainer. And I think it's upon you and us, all of us, to be cognizant of the fact that the pettowan that in the private sector is more exponentially growing

than the people that's in public enterprise. Now that's the answer of moral our people, to be it's always slarres, so that it's always a blowback, regulatory blowback. Yeah, right, right. So you are accountable to whether or not you're compliant. Yeah, right?

You have to be responsible in making sure that they understand what the trends are. what the trends are. Definitely. Yeah. I think, and lucky for us, there are moves in that direction. So, the good thing, well, and actually, in a sense,

because COVID, so it's more focused to the digital industry. And now is the time of dialogue to open the eyes so, so we can still to support the companies, to keep up in Indonesia,

because trend it's always to that, P.E., so, P.E., so much, I'm not to be it yet. It's not to be it yet. It's going to happen a lot sooner than you think. Yeah, we're going to make Tesla's and not just test out of the other-negrary. Why not?

Yeah. And then we can island hopping very easily. Farmers who want to send food, can just go and do it. Not just, but the product that's more great. That's more great. From here, yeah. I'm going to be like that. I'm going to be able.

I can't be able. Guilty and more than, and stuff. Right, right. We've talked about a lot of stuff, yeah, right? From the last of 2004, let's end on a nice note.

Talk about how you chill. How do I chill? You know, it's pretty stressful, right, to be working on your platform. Yeah. I hear about your serving hobbies and all that, and you hook up with, you know, your husband, who's got a great, you know...

We have a surf resort, that's right. Yeah, the way I'm chilling. Yeah, yeah. I think the way I relax. Yeah, one part is surfing, because I also want to keep healthy. I'm a big believer. There is that where I've ever seen post in LinkedIn. You can only focus on five things really well in life.

So I think it's like work, hobby, family, health, friends. So I'm like, okay, In that case, if three out of five, we overlap hobby with my health my health, I'd just one. So, it's kind of my theory, to be a little bit more efficient, so if efficiency more than more than efficiency more tingy. But I think it's important, if you want chilling,

doing something that, because we're much thinking, yeah, every day, maybe have switch off, sometimes, give your brain a break. So, not can't work, and then, can burn out very easily. Surfing is one way. I enjoy it, because... You serve more than your husband?

No, he's more than. But I'm, yeah, I'm every week can do that. If, if, like, not in Jakarta. If in Jakarta, if you're going to surpinging in, if you're going to be in one of the five things. Okay. Which is very, very hard to focus on.

So, important to always be to meet with friends, hanging out, gawberling on other, and to open waccana, yeah. If we're at least up-up, if I like I, like, I'm looking into operations, operation, operations, sometimes, so, not know industry other,

not even start-up, the world, the world maya, it's just, yeah, the world, like how much, we're, so, always, always, always, always,

thank you so much. Thank you, that was an amazing conversation. Seru, yeah, sir, yeah. It's all, Tessa Wijaya, founder of Zandit. Thank you.

Endgame is a podcast by the School of Government and Public Policy Indonesia, the first Indonesian Policy School to offer a full-time master's program in English, and is a production of the cinema, Indonesia's award-winning entertainment and technology company. Oni Jamhari and Anga Duima Sasonko are our executive producers. Ahmed Zaki Habibi and Jimmy Kuntoro are our supervising producers. Hannah Humaira and Farah Abida are. producers. Bobby Zarqasi is our director. Aditya Dema Pratama is our director of

photography. Video editing by Felicia Wiradiya. Alvin Pradana Susanto is our sound engineer. Pratri Prati and Vera Rachmawati are research assistants. Aulia Septiadi and Ferdisal Optama are our graphic designers. Transcriptions and translations by Isfi Afiani. The song you're hearing is by Neil Giuliarso, Ferdinand Chandra, and Philippus Cahadi, mixed and produced by Gibran Wiriwaii. The production of this episode adheres closely to the local authorities' health and safety protocols.