Endgame with Gita Wirjawan - Vedi Hadiz: Oligarki, Negara, dan Ketimpangan Sukarela

Episode Date: October 6, 2026

Demokrasi akan kehilangan maknanya di mana pun ketimpangan menganga terlalu lebar—apalagi bila diperparah dengan ketimpangan sukarela (participative inequality). Mereka yang berbasis material kuat menulis ulang arti "kepentingan publik", lalu menyebarkannya lewat sekolah, lewat layar, hingga kita mengiranya kehendak bersama.Demokrasi bukan barang yang dipilih di etalase toko. Demokrasi harus tumbuh dari pergulatan, ditempa sejarah, bukan diberi cuma-cuma.Tentang bintang tamu:Professor Vedi Hadiz adalah Assistant Deputy Vice-Chancellor International (Indonesia) dari University of Melbourne, Australia yang juga menjabat sebagai Director dan Professor of Asian Studies di Asia Institute. Sebelumnya, beliau mengajar sebagai Professor of Asian Societies and Politics di Asia Research Centre, Murdoch University, serta Australian Research Council Future Fellow. Beliau juga pernah menjadi Associate Professor di Department of Sociology, National University of Singapore.Topik selengkapnya:0:00:00 - Intro0:01:32 - Formasi pengetahuan Vedi Hadiz0:04:59 - Demokrasi dan oligarki0:20:43 - Sejarah dan makna liberalisme0:31:17 - Di Cina, kapitalisme di bawah Partai Komunis?0:38:55 - Festivalisasi vs Intelektualisasi0:48:00 - Serikat guru mogok kerja0:50:59 - Rekayasa sosial: Manajemen talenta bangsa1:02:41 - Dansa kapitalisme dan politik1:26:29 - Ketimpangan sukarela (participative inequality)#Endgame #GitaWirjawan #VediHadiz------------------Buku yang saya tulis, ‘What It Takes: Southeast Asia’, sekarang sudah tersedia dalam Bahasa Indonesia dan Inggris. Dapatkan di sini:https://books.endgame.idSudah baca? Tinggalkan review-mu di sini:Goodreads------------------Episode lain yang mungkin Anda sukai:Kimberly Hoang: Myth on Capitalism and Sex IndustrySaid Didu: Jangan Turunkan Layar di Kala Badai Sebuah Surat Cinta untuk Indonesia

I'm sorry if I'm if I'm giving a one of some of a lot of but in order I'm realistic we're going to

we're going to be aced in the rhetoric the the foundation of the Indonesia

it's not the it's the opposite direction which the emusatat the quassan

co-caiaan sumberdai to the people who not be a important to more redistribution

of what Hello, TENERENTEN-themin' SANGES Thank you, South East Asia, is here in BASA Indonesia

and BASA English. Bucco is did get through books. orgs.endgame. Dot and ID and at the tokutm. Now, back to the show.

Hello, time, today we're getting fedi, hadis, a personeliti Dosen in Australia in Melbourne He'll

Seringly Mintae Dimpangue as political sociologist Mr. Mr. Fadi, thank you much at

his career Oh, thank you thank you on the thank you Ones I'm not

how much how much academic Fedi to be to be a docene in Melbourne

from from from several minutes or two minutes So, okay.

So, so, so, maybe, if the journey academia, did beulay, I was, I was,

I, it was in VISIP UI, and at the visip UI that, I,

I'm sure, the, I'menal activism political, so I, so I, being,

about, and, the, granderererer and the under the LSM at that that, which I think

I think made I'm making I'm a bit different from from the many of academic or massisual

that I'm at my time. This is a time order new, where activism masiswe,

activism LSM is very be batasi. Now, when I I from U.I. That

I was in the world activism, but, I'm also work in LP3S, that's,

the company pelitian, and so the agot and the department redaction magala

Prisma. Now, long, that, I'm maybe I'm almost with,

um, with, with, the condition intellectual, and, and also, what, what,

the number of, I'm the, also, aghapatashi, get, but I'm, and I'm think,

I'm going to school in the world country. I'm, I'm, I'm,

and, people, people, economic, political, because, uh, I,

it's, it, to, it, to be able, the, kind of, ...endassar.

So, when school I'm very much with the way that

Indonesia is authoritarian in Baur de Bauru the Bauru, because the culture Jawa

from the sono it's authoritar that. I think I'm that's what, uh,

lazy, yeah? So, I'm not, I'm not mohasked. So, I'm not

I think that the way the way that has been usuror as far historic and in the same structural, and that

economic political, it's, make a lot of doing the doing so. So, I'm

to do, the study in-bawar professor, who's called Richard Robinson, he, is,

a hecumny political, Asia, Tengara, and Indonesia, that, I think I, probably being

taking job to make-embang- a school of thought about the society and Asia-Tengara

and even Asia-Ser-Bel-Luas from the end-Dakotan economic-politic-critic and much from the-pent-pent-a-cout-culturalist

or institutionalist. If, if, whether you, how, see, the journey

Indonesia to be more be democratization or be democrat to be not quite from

time 45 or maybe from 2009 from 2008, what positive and what can what can

be able to be abate to the so. So, so, democracy is also

also that we're going to go to Toku, and we we'll pick democracy,

we're going to buy democracy, we're not buy authoritarianism, we're not buy autocrasies or what, that is something

that's a result of process the process sejara, yeah, and the history,

it's full with pergulat pergulat between the, and the important, the,

social, economic, politic that saling betentangan in the

time of the world of the nation the country is

there still still there or there without there

in a very very that be that so so

the uh uh uh, uh, uh, uh, uh,

uh, uh, very clear, and it's it's a way for the

democracy liberal, in 50s in a certain about. But, but it's social for

democracy liberal is not in Indonesia at the time in the class

menh Indonesia and also class class that's called

sub-altern that, not So, for the partain of Class Menangha, Indonesia, that's a PSI, that at the time, he just got, what, 2%

from the SOUARAC in the in the time 55. So, it's really mennucing that the idea to become democracy, the factoring,

there, from the start from the mass of democracy, and it's a big from discursus public about Indonesia

want to be what, but, but the experiment it's, it's not gagged, or did gagged by the penitings who don't enjoy any way

the way to, and we're going to get back to the democracy the impimpin. Now, the thing is from democracy

repimpin, which, I think it's been not, but, but, if we're

coming back to the career classic about Indonesia that's people are people like people

or Daniel Leff that's actually it's been the land the Rangangang it's in RANh

institutions and in Rana Pongensation the Pentings social that's being the main for the

new so it's sojourn't so that so far parliament our from the

time the end up last after order of the new,

it's kind of god and so it's called in the political

is a corporate so not based parte political but

but but based on golongan in massacacat and that is

the concept that that is the under order baru

which Yeah. What did dorus can more than than military,

like, be able to be in the government. Lally in the time, democracy

repimping, there's nationalization from foreign foreign dishing, and that

then, then, it's, then, it's, So, so, the military

was a military upon a basis material. He has made stake in

economic, and that is a thing that is a order by order new.

So, in the order this, we we look that

after after perisui 65-6-6- which that's very gongang, that's

we're we've brought to a one of a un-economic and political,

where, what, what-n- -pentings and the people, dis-sallurkan through go-golong-

and organization that representat gul-gul-gul-an which is by the government. So,

so, in the context of it, it's, can, it's not democratic, that's, so, then, it's,

it, did, it, did, add by, there is a little, Raleh Murtopo,

it's floating mass, yeah, mass, yeah, mass, yeah, so, party politic, it,

not have been , basis, in, at the, discal, gold-car, yeah?

Now, that, then, then, then, then, the system people,

um, , which is just is a gold car which, which is the fact that ornamental. So,

we know, yeah, at the usia I think that that's the people, we know, we've got

the result before, before, uh, before, uh, the wordan, soarani, so yeah,

so, yeah, so, yeah, so, uh, uh, uh,

that's, it's also, uh, the order that, is, that, that's,

that, that authoritarianism it then then the part of the form of the

thing I'm called as I'm saying I'm can't I'm going to then we can talk about

about oligarchy but but but the intinion is this oligarchy that yeah

that okay in order I think I'm sure I'm between the penning political

bureaucraci and business and business and fosy that that's there in a

structure in the economy political Indonesia that then dominions

all yeah the sphere social economy in Indonesia in

the decade now reformation it is so betulmation it's

it's it's but democracy, but but, but, but the

actually, that's the oligarchy that's the big bina and the built by

the mass authoritarian order that is, be able to be adaptation

to the peradap perubbaan politic which, which is the fact

just institutional, so, so, so, we have people, we have

parties, party, party political, or it, it's make

things like the people like and what the way, what the more than

the more the way, that's it, that's not ever being a rintangang

for, to keep power power of oligarchy that, so, so, so,

so, the majority of the people, which the person from the government,

from 2008, until now, it mewakily the penning of oligarchy to beckettlement

the people, because the people large, while even there democracy, still not have been not having

certain, and other can't can't challenge, that, that's, the penitangangang

of oligarchies to be. You're sometimes saying, Bhaughasani, one of the definition

oligarchy is, capacity their to be able and menonging institutions for the importance accumulation

private or model private that's not unique in Indonesia and this is quite pervasive in many

countries and many countries that claim as a democracy even. Even after this also there are

there's a people that's about that, that's the oligarchi it can be just a

idea or besinar justru because institutions democracy, not while even though

there's institution democracy. What I'm galley in here, what I'm what's

what has been de-institutional ization in context the other institutions that's

the samestin can make, democratization public goods, but they just true concentration

what, whatever, public goods, in the clompolempok Tretentu. This is also an uh, if you're in fact

if I'm, if I'm bandinging the history Indonesia in a reductionist like, with the history perkempangan

capitalism and democracy, misalely, in Europe, that, yeah, yeah, in Europe,

yeah, yeah, legarchy, that's just the difference this

democracy in the in Europe it's be able several path first

is the people people people people people who

may be that their and they think they're being important

so they they're ...iturusage to to build a efficient

which non-fiodal where they're who have property are they can't

put in abdu kann Russia. So, this is it actually still not democracy.

Yeah. There liberalization in the law whenang, it, we'll equal,

from the calangan aristocracy on the more than more than the more than while even even there's in the clangue the property then the path

next time the next the path of from the back especially geracan burh now the group that that's then

can't makesa um bourgeoisie europe to to receive that, that's

all the people can't people people who the first it's just them are

only who people who people who people, the other people who long again like that

even in one in Switzerland it's about in two-tuk- -tuk- -old-

there, there, there, there has the people um,

to make the So, so it's a long process and the result from the world of different

different things. Now, the path there's, the second the war two, it's also

some kind of accommodation, yeah, the business, the country, and the garracan burr,

because at the time the gunnourin quack, that, which, which is called welfare state,

the country sechatera-separate, where there haq-haps social that social and large, where there

people of economic that's to be able to manage the peace consangangans social

economy, where, partai bouru and partai social-democrat that, it has been

the compuance to challenge, if part-y- part-y- that-cendur-d- med-wack-lick- the of the people are

elite bureaucratists or elite business but it's all right in liberalization global that's around

about in 80s, while upon benign it been made from from 70 than that's

that's that's that's that's what balance of power shift to be able to

people people people who And the country is more yeah ber fussy that's

the peninging with people people who because what namahs grackan buru it's

um yeah the lemah which is this in the globalization neol liberal yeah

model can be being back wherein' yeah burruh can not be able to

bring to get to get to money so so so money

that more than more more There are Negara that are trying to

bring them them bring them into so, the result is that from the 80s and

from 2009 2010 and until now, and since that's a consuling that,

uh, oligarchy that, more, um, the, um, the,

um, the, um, , can be be able to beultern. But, so on

the story it's important, you know, that because there's tradition perloman, because there kendaran,

kendarang, in the form of the borough, party buru, parta, party Sos, and like,

and so armas, ormas, he, can't be unung-on-on-g just, so,

so parah parh-n-n- -parm-pac- new-liberalisation to-hap the rights, the rights, the people,

and, and, and, and, and, and, and, the,

uh, the process democracy that that's different, uh, tendrung

more much, clas- for, uh, because, it's far sejarac,

as far culture, social, political, and, and, material, that,

it, it, it's, it, challenge, that, domination, the,

in Indonesia, it's, no, there, in India, sia, there, ,

civil society, The community is very fragmentation, not reorganization, and didn't have beenpuny agenda to be reintangue oligargui because it's got to optaqis. This is, it's quite noughta.

There are some things you say that I'm going to try to lick more deep. Nata, apalagued in era that's very unipolar, that'sa, the world

barat, angupela America or since runtook thembog Berlin, they're kek to be able

to beeneb benic the lily liberal to allure but with universalism as a can

a can the Lord of them is the Godnaic is the god not not be hormati primacy

and supremacy and supremacy from the and also the dualatism we're going to be able fits all right now it's if it's a discount in campaign to medibre beniche, nilay-nilibrillian

the way-nilibrillian. I'm going to say, I think about many people who are people who claim their own claim their own democracy didn't be able to democratization public goods yeah, the most gampangue intellect or

or peddication. If we're in Jakarta than in Merroquet, bedg there's quite. And then

quality of facilitation in the area that perpencil, bedgain significan. Quality

of cheshaftraan this can be in context genie coefficient ratio for the kaian and pedapotan per-of-o-

that's disparat-gis-n-li- this is-law-bias. This is It's really that democracy is not just a

batas predisposions sound. I'm sorry. I'm very much menemate that's freedom

of expression, free and fair election, it has been because, because, because, can't,

the comment stop just to just, we're not menendack longuety with

the people to redistribus public goods. Okay. Silakan. So, so,

there's one argument, which I think I think not too original because this

people like Thomas Pilketty and again people are making them with variations that's

but but kind of like this democracy that's not be work in the

condition the kind of low large in the anywhere in the

world and and the result from bioeconomic and geopolitic

global for 40-an years, is the pre-ebaran resinjangans in almost all the

pro-economian in the world. Europe, America, China, all, it's far

not equal than than 40 years the last. So, so, so, why they

not be able because in the in a system democracy that the system

of the system of social economy that they're sure they're

that they're making based material more more can be

more can be impact the public good the public good

did definisically by the people and then the

definition it dissocialization like with other other than other than instruments

social and and get and internalization by the people are more but it's

but it's certainly men cherminting the between the people who because

because basis material more more more to make

the process democracy that which actually men negation

and the meaning of democracy that So, so, one of the thesis that I've used to is that, that's the first

the world that's global is very much by the reality that the world this is making timpang. And we've

already made the result, both in the agarer the countries that are trying medidemocratization, which Indonesia,

where where the result is oligarchy and we're able to be able to and we'll see it in the place like America

where what's faks of oligarchy that are that can be able to be put up to put up

what name fossil fuels or to industry pertananan or to Wall Street or

now high-tech that it will beacquare people who people who people who can't and make

about the importance the pointingan it's public good and that's that's that's

that so that so the answer first but that that

we we're with universalism yeah from from the idea

the idea by the In other ideas, ideas, democracy and human rights and sogainly it, in the barat

even through universal. So, to make a matter of that is, what, what, the way, the word,

I think I'm sorry. He is the result from purgulatan social, which, in the world in the world

d'u-d-d-d-lul-d-louan, so, ideas about democracy and human rights become more prominent than in the places different places

but we're we know that in the place like America that many many people people people

people who are people who who want America is more make up more like putting Polar

Vladimir Putin I'm I think that in phantasiness Donald Trump he is Vladimir

Putin, yeah, can, the unaggaret because of even when russan calh, but many

traditions in the barat that we have seen love, it is anti-democratis so,

so, fascism, it, can beasal from the barat. Nazism it,

it's been from barat, so, so, so, many traditions,

anti-democras from Barat, that who's actually also, it's still be

good at least and what I know again, you know how much you want to indulge me

because I can't gocee. Please. Please. This, this is a democratization of

ideas. This is we're upy to democratization ID. Silate. Okay, okay. I,

I, I, I, I need to be sure be able to talk. So,

so, so, so, this, this is the penitian my

my name David Boucher yeah he's he did uh uh... under

university Western Australia but during I've been work together with me

he he's he he and I think 80% 80%

uh gurupacacur we're gonna get us he can mara he may

say he may say that that that that penulison

Undang-Undang Dasar 1945 that that's very by Supomo very very much

by people think from the people think people think the people think

the back the front of supomu from from the guru guru

blanddana who from the guru guru Germanian and then the guru

German is the guru guru guru German that's that then then

go to Japan and then then make result fascism in Japan

so so so that idea this really yeah yeah

to say to say this this idea this this

is this that's also lazy thinking yeah yeah in the

The world of the world idea, always be gumul, always betentangans, always besintesa, so, so,

to say, to say, that's from this, it's from that, that's ridiculous, so,

so, so, so, the people, the, that, from, from,

Romawi, Yunanis, it, what, the, people, the people,

the end of the, the persia, it's, so, so, this, this, inund I'm a-historic,

and, and this, what, uh, uh, uh, yeah, lazy just,

that's, to learn, to learn, in the history, in a story, the story, but, but,

can, anarchistist, yeah, can, be, some, can, yeah,

can, yeah, but, but, but, um, but, um,

the, and the is, is the product the end up the product the end up, you know,

want ideology kiri, the middle or right, or down, or down, so back and down.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The color, what, what, not be dully what,

that's, pragmatism there. And, and, they're not too mendinging

ornamentation to be the ideology. The fact we, the country, not to be the class

elite. Yeah, and this, yeah, this, this, this, but if I'm

seeing, in the Hong Kong, it's we want school in Chongqing, in Wuhan, in Shenzhen, Shanghai, Peaching,

quality of the quality of different, tipis. It's, it's, it's, it's, we've got

to clinic, to clinic, to the other putt to the quality of different than different,

typis, that's, democratization facilitas of the health healthing, or the planan

of the person, but if we look, but if a person yugur minta hak-hack-k-na,

he'd be there I'll get there I'll get there I'll get there I'm going glorification Tiansk

but we have to be introspection that we we're campaigning nilay-nil liberal as can-a-can

this universalism it's not yeah but we're still there things that have been that need

to be there I'm going to one topic this this is that's that's

that's much structural for the important for the public goods is democratization cognizy.

Probleming if we're from we're from Rokke that 88% from from the

capital of people from government of the electorate not not

per penidic F1 yeah right so it not too not too

gampang to democratization public goods if if I, in my opinion

China is a case that's very because because in the capitalism

be coming in a part of a communist but but because he party communist

he also not can't be too gambang it to

melantark people because who who who can't believe that he party

communist I'm just I'm in to Vietnam and one of the one thing that's that's that's it's,

the condition material, the life of the partaniness in order I'm more better than I'm better than a

big in in Indonesia, and Malaysia, or Philippines. Yeah? So, what,

um, that he's a, Maksa He, to, yeah, there's other

what, what, know, bukty, but there egalitarianism, there, distribution

of the other than and so many. But it not, sootulna, menutup the

fact that, yeah, in China we can, we can, we can, the, you know,

the, you know, the, um, Plebaran, ketimang of Keighan, it can't far more than in

in the year in 2019, apollo in the time while, and what namannia, we're looking

that there's somecum redistribusy in art that, alliances and the country

bureaucracy and business in the local, it's been very much from the 90-an so,

so even the project from Xi Jinping is, is, is, is, to make

makesaking the authority party to be other alliances this, so, So, yeah.

So, yeah. So, uh, I'm saying, I'm saying, there's re-centralization the power of

political and economy. Now, in the whole, it's, it's been, in, in,

in, China, but, but in context, where fragmentation it, it,

not ever as what yeah as a thing

because what? Because from from the business and the

government disubordinates to power partai yeah I not

I don't say we have we have public communist but but

that that is the true I'm I I'm

I I don't believe idea idea that China like China like

because five thousand people the culture not perubbaugh

I'm nonsense and because because process hanification China

is perlans in glombang long long long time that

yeah yeah until with 700 than people in China

Southan more Asia dengara than than They're just now not sadar

that they're dehanification so, yeah, so, yeah, we're in a we're saying,

we're going to be critical and skeptic and then, I always skeptic to-utom to-u-termal things that all-hall-

that all-and-so- Now, then, then, to come to Indonesia that, so-all-a-dribusies- cognitive and

and, and, so-gain-so-gain-it-a-oh. I'm like this, um, it's it,

I think it's hard to be without a what name

uh, configuration the people and the people people, yeah,

the people, yeah, people, it's, it's can't make,

uh, to get back, to, and the people, so,

so. So, so like, all of things can be able to think

it's hard to make to make what you as a other about the revolution

or revolutions because the basis the the penning the economy political

that dominion in Indonesia not be important to the particular to be

people yeah I'm right I'm a spakot. And if I'm in fact I'm going to how much

we can make up 48% to 0, how much we can't we can't, this per cent this percentage

roomat and perpendigant that's perent, the electorate that's one to atas, it will be underue

as far we can't we can't quality institutionalization. And, yeah, to

contrast between Tionk with democracy Yeah, if in Tionk if there are two people

want y'allangue like to one, IQ's 140 Ahali phisica Mourney, but not jago-gog mongue.

Then, and one other IQ's 8. 49, but not know how much can't be sensationalization

Diri in TikTok. The, that's the first. But, but, but,

but, and, amplification algorithm in many democracies, as a can-an-a-can-it is same with democracy that's which is justru

that's make festivalization or sensationalization of it. Not this, people who are being able to say discount,

which we have we have to make an institutionalizationis or the kind of we're recruiting talenta

more based on meritocracy, I'm I'm I'm about, I'm, I'm,

Bum, B. I'm U.S. about, IQ's 78 in Indonesia has to

the key to he's he's because because he has been being a

part of the system of political dominantly. Yeah. So, so. So,

so. Point, point my just true is the more structural more, we have

got to more as a quick. Because not the stock-nia- -you- -stor-you-

the podium, it will be And, muddhawn, more than 758. Now, this, now, this I'm going to take the question

next. You know, you're going to be a political sociologist, maybe, not, we can be doing,

we can't if you're at a room, or room tango, the, people, not can't

be put three attributes that thing, and bitty, you know, imagination, or even, serendipity,

or smart serendipity, Maybe, we're going to be recruit guru that's more than more more than we're

because we're three-centa-juta, majority is only the gaijee $2.8 million per-bun. It's difficult to we can recruit

talenta as guru. Yeah. So, so, yeah, kira, yeah,

I, I'm going to give shaksian aheed in the Macamaconsitusi. that because

it's because it's a rickat campus they're them them need to conduct

under the law undang who um... who um... ...that ...that

their their their now in their practice yeah makesil can

make sure that many dosen in-n- -surve- percent of those

docent, it has made-home pay that's in-bawr UMR. So, in one-pike, this is a matter of dissing.

Yeah? But how people, but how people who are people who have people who have talenta and sogainia

it, it will be taken to become a if they're if they're after UMR, can? It's already

but, but, yeah. But, but more than that,

we're always talk about menickacken what, uh, the power of the

unionras, unuras ours, we know, we have to be saying with what,

the world and so, and so in the position I, in the university,

I, I, I, I, actually, I'm, because I did the

assistant Wackil Rector Bidang International, I, toot to help to work with

the government Indonesia. So, the facultas pedophon our work with U. U.S.

and other than other than I'm I'm doing, facilitate. But, but I

see, here, so far glenia, that upah upa politic or

suruant bureaucratis to to quality from the quality of the purgurant

our good, it will not be good if one, there is there's

not enough to foundation from the from the degree

that, that is sumberdai manusian yeah, not just not just we're

not just we're people, but also, because because, because

the university that like, them need dosen that can make sure

and autonomic men, can't function of functions, funsying, menalit, and

abdi to the people. If he not have time security certain, how he

want autonomous? Yeah. Yeah, so, so, so, so,

the, three things, the disan, autonomy, and commandirial Dossent in making

the work Duguration and quality of purgurant we're doing between between

but in the fact that we're in this I'm going to this I'm going to say the

people Indonesia is making a against with there's just around

with Australia in Duran I'm under the time but then

then the Duited Duited for the other that, I think it's a

Rewiguing this international, reputations because in the university I'm also also have

to bejuan to make making kind of Rekin-Refers my, that, oh, we need together in

Bidang Alternative Energy with Indonesia. We need Indonesia, Indonesia, have,

Indonesia, but if, but if they're, see that it's not it's not who's

who can't believe to believe to be that's something that was something that I'm

saying that I'm saying that I'm political which is not be a pepentingan to be a

different than things and other things because for them not them because the logica

from oligarche to Indonesia is We've used Sumber Daya Public, authority, the oneangue,

it's for the increase accumulation private. This, the last, on the guru, I will,

I will get to get some point that I did say about, but the last,

when we're if we can do, if we're to make gaujury $30,000 per

month. I, too, I have to have a lot of people who are from Nalburn University, and then he has had been

to gawmongueh their own-in-a-sum-haw-and-y-cath-sum-ed-a-cuh-lid-a-cuh. He, took-lust-a-cuh-lust. or chawoky, can't meet the other and the food,

the way of life can be partonguptuapkan. Whileup he had petawaran to be Melbourne or

work in Darnantara $40, I have I have been a passion is to gashor,

I think she he'd be going to comepong to summedang to with Gaj 30 $1.

Now, if we if we're rankul as premise, $30 $30 $0 per guru,

we're gaj one jute just a million. Masing, Masing 30 juteu-tut, that's $30 trillion.

A year, is a year $360 trillion. If this is the energy that can't be partangue

and it be correlations with Pekatement and democratization public goods in the

code of post the case, we can we can't sample size to 2,000, the $2,000, the $1,000,

I'm, I'm, I'm, to, more be able to that's the nation

building we know, with the thing that you're in the fact that institutionalization that's,

the design to be designed to more menugue the importance for class class certain to,

not the people, with presumption it, what we can do, to make doing social

re-engineering agger narration, like that I said I'm saying that's that's going to becky. everyone's going to becky-gris.

And they're going to work because they're going to beckon the gaijin who, in their, in the way, not, um, making-cuted

laju-inflation. Uh, The result is, they they've got to be naïcan gaiji. Not like they're making TENKINCHA, but they're nego with the government, and they're getting

got, that. In University of Australia, every three years, the Urukardburdu's d'n, it's, were negotiating with universities to bejamin the rights,

and, other, from the docet of, Dosen. So, what I want to say that that's

important to things that things must have have been an ability reorganization so

that's mampu to make articulassically the and the important

the matter in the competition to put put under the under

the while it doesn't be they're they're being I think

I think I, it's the reason it is that the must be more mampu to be organized,

in a more systematis, and more coherent, it, it, it, make-gul-

the things the penning the importance, so, it, the potential

the amount to be being, it, that, that, the, part of

the purulatant to make to make the public so I don't think that that's

that's the result of a number of people who are in the room of people and then say this

this is the bad I'm not I'm not I know I've been been to be kind of

so much so much so I'm but but I never ever I'm not percha I'm not

I'm not I don't believe with that. I, in my opinion I'm in the way to see in the same

matter of representatisical representation and if the people are people who not

perwaki in the meja that will not come back the person.

That that, that, that, the, that, the, the,

was a catatant, and data point that I, that I, can to

how can how can make sure how much things. Now, this, you,

you know, as political sociologist, this, this, one question again about

social re-engineering. I, if I, if I was from the sociology, how many people,

it's success, menepat the time in the top-ten economies. The first

is Japan, is Japan who are who are rancul narration that's the

brain train. So, homogeneity of talent is high technology of talent is Japan,

the Prasca the war world of duality can make debuumian talenta. 80%

from the Pemnang Nobel not per not per not per school in the other

being brain gain, Australia, where you were there they're them bough and down talenta

that's from Indonesia, Singapore, Bhutan, Tionk, India, mayulah

Australia, top 10 economy. The third, brain circulation. This is manifestation in Tionk

that since time 78 gave 9 million or more than 9 million, majority

people, majority people, people, they're muttaking product products

like B.D, Shaume, SOUME, O'O, and, other, like, line,

the fourth, the last is brain linkage in India. They're giving in 50 years, to be around

to be 10 million to all the world, majority is not want back, so that

Satyana Dela Sundar Pichai. I'm concerned panangana you, on how much Indonesia to the

different. I'm not look, Indonesia, to have brain train. Talent Indigenousity

is there, but not scale. I'm we look at Indonesia maybe has brain gain and brain circulation

if we're brain linkage we can't because diaspora we're not more than 250,000

in 50 years. Please. Lady. So, that, I think I, we,

we, we're not more, we're not the, we're not people, people,

people, people, people, pintar or potential pintar but potential pintar. But, uh,

ininian, I'm education and the the life of it, and, you know, because I'm doing, in Pergulant high

that has been a major and what mimbimbing many

mahasis PhD, yeah, from Indonesia and from India and other

places and other one one with my PhD

our who who is there is they they're

they're just with bureaucracy so they're they that's

very that's big volume yeah, volume of it's on the

bannick in it, it's right, it's still, PhD

just got to did do get Proudi in two

two years during two two like if like

when he will be work yeah so I

I've been every every-kali, talk with Dick P, with mandatory stack

and mace-mac-mac- and rector, I said, I'm going to be able to this, this is a

kind of idea just, you know, this is a problem, but idea that's I'm going to.

I'm going this. That that the money that is the money that did

for Biasisua Ph.D. It's very, that, but, But, but also

it's about that's that's that's from the money that's

money and get back the data post-doctoral. Artiness what? They're not going to

come. But, but, uh, rector, dekan, and so always

want, they're they're going to be sure to be garrer and disurue

bureaucracy, but, but, but but But, I think I'm if we

give a year, two years, and it minimal, two years. Because program postdoc

in this three to five years, but if you if they're minimal, but I'm giving two

is the idea, that's that's, that's the time back to Indonesia, then

then just being being being Yeah, so, my school I'm a student

PhD's PhDs it can be able to be able to be able to make sure in the

journal international yeah so he he has reputations and also he has

had been experience for competition with with recan recant in the places

to put to meet at the venue venue that

competitive that's competitive, that's the last of the postdoc yeah

the experience he's in the world not there's just as

as a student but if they staff that they staff it's can

be able do do get to do he could he

he could be being better mean can't be different

can't say agenda penitian, grant seeking, you know, including conferences international. This,

can all, in order to see what I'm doing, that's actually, if they're going, he can't

injects to more be an impact to you, yeah, to the institution in Indonesia,

the more, and he just done, and did make sure about it, I'm 15 years,

but, And there's who don't know that's wow but maybe

maybe the question I want try to try kind of you're for Indonesia to if you

want to move to more to more more able to brain

gain and brain circulation I'm this is this maybe a bit nimpy

a If you're If you're going to give 2 million to get in into the

world, including to ITB and school school and school of Europe, Australia,

America, Japan, and, Pyongok too, like, to, to,

to we can't get in the Rantak in Rantak in Geopolitic Dunia to be expanded

upon our strategic autonomy, chance is more It's very big. Now, but the two

is brain gain. This, I do with this is always over simplistic that's why it if you're in Sumedang or

in Rote, like, the people want to be able to learn mechanical quantum. And,

there are people who get the mechanic quantum. And, and, in all the world,

there are Somalia, who probably who can't make can't quantum with

passport English, if the wargar road to be able to end up to get ridden people to gawakian

quantum I'm sure that's actually democratization the pedigation the country in the country in Indonesia

yeah I think I think it can be umbantu and in in the context that

um the more the longer that can't be a lot that can't but it can't be done

with process other like the process like I'm like I said that's like I'm that's

that's about elements element in the element in the people that are under-barginaled can

have been articulatical the importance soinging it's not being part from discussion

about public good that I'm I think I think that things

like that things we're talking we're talking and many things which we're that we're

talking about yeah so so it so it it's it's it's

it's be multi-front and and in and it and and it's and

the time on the front it's there there there there

rintang that's structural not only because there bureaucrat that's because

because it's structure there's been built like that and to make structure that

is more more difficult than more than more one one person who

who's who dirgen in in a one one body

the government um yeah yeah uh... yeah uh...

uh... Manthan-Mendry, you know, Pat, he's, can't make this. Yeah,

man-man-ment- can't- get-e so-n't- so-n't- so-n- just-n- -gint-n-

yeah. We're take a example in Indonesia, yeah. When Obama was,

the President 2008, yeah, harap-a-n- -l-up-a-l-p because, because he, because he

of a person who made a person because what I'm reputations for integrity and because program that

they've talked about the campaign yeah and I think I think maybe 70% from their

program they're not because because must um uh um...

um... uh... hangataping rintang and the stutural in bureaucracy in

uh... uh... uh... and that's very, that's important, in the business in

America. Yeah, so, even, even, the, even, it's,

then, it's, then, it's, for people, this, this, this,

this, this, this, this, this is, it's, death weight bureaucracy, or bureaucratic

dead weight. Yeah, it's soly, to reformation or be-o-abat- -o-ab-a-oh- . Now,

I want to try juxtapose what I've observed in, anguplas Tionk and Russia which, which is a manna, it's beenupeer

from the first, from before now, menempat kind, and the authority political on the capitalism.

Yeah, right. Now, you know, and I'm saying, the person upa in

Indonesia to make a centralization. Apak to put an authority politic in atas capitalism. Or this,

maybe, yeah, wujut that's bad, but the smangattes same than what we've done what we've

done with what we're maybe. Now, maybe follow-up is, in Tyeongk, in Russia, can be able to even,

although, the authority political in the atas, capitalism in-bawah, there somebathen

so that road economy it's it's like it's not a now if in Indonesia

if there if there there's there there's there's not a impact can

be able that's what we're seeing what we're just so it's just so so we

must what yeah uh the uh the case that case that's kind of

kind of in Russia it's like what? Back back I'm back to

seeerah yeah when after perestroika it was that kind

that that many people people people of people

from Harvard that at that that came to

to get to to to make ...melola transcissi economy Russia to

to capitalism. In fact I think it's not like what's the same by Jeffrey Sachs. And I think now even he is making acuiness.

The result is gangster capitalism. What's what the set asset, the self-in-negara, it because

semantrana is privatization, Bodo-amat binawana privatization did it's It's It's It's

It's That's The same Isset Aset Nagara Byamil Ali

by Becas Bekaz Peopleer Parte and by bandits bandit who

have accumulasi Modal Lewap in Pasar in So,

So, So, So, Jamban Mar is the Bawksin especially

where, then gubernary governors of different different provinces that's which has

who had who had who ever have been a chelis in Abramovitch

Abramovitch that that that, it, it, it, um,

um, um, um, unbusha and the work uh, Putin

is, is, and, discipline against them, he, not P.K.

But, they have secret police, and he has a parat coercive

the government. But what happened in the I mean I, not

not capitalism is put in the but a genus a certain

between between between between between between because if

I'm I doga now capitalists the best in Russia is Vladimir Putin

in the in the art that's there's there's gangster capitalism just big boss

it's yeah, sir, but that is still many corruption and and

and the misgunana and the other than the anti-z-z- marijuana

and much much but but but yeah he he has

had had been and they they have some of natural that they can use

for gunnating to propang it's it's per-egonomian but it is a

one a type also a economic that there's that it's

berandask peramp rampokan from from the and the whole

that's very with Indonesia yeah So the idea I say re-centralization is the way

is an up upy to impose some kind of hegemony from fraction to oligarchy to be the

whole-garking because the result of reformation is that that oligarchy it, while even

mouasay the type democracy Indonesia, the the fact the

fact- fragmentation and the defining characteristic of the

Indonesian reformation is conflict antararchy and it's a stifatting. So, this is a kind of capitalism

that I say said predatoris but, but where mechanism mechanism that is re-centralization I'm in

I think in the benact they he, they want it like the order baru.

Yeah, where Suharto Dulu was Putin but I think it's really sure I'm because

many people that's being in the system that's more desensualization to be the city

city local local and all the much that must be give gives nafka too

in in batas intuition um kendarm the kendarance

if if it if it's to be going to be crowding out right. This maybe

people are the people that's partying of humpunan oligarchy yeah maybe they're

not can get back because there people who who's which is centralistis and

this is how it's kind of if there's something. It's there's been about

what is a way, and the other other than all parties derangell right,

so all parties do you doggia. Dugan I, this is something that I'm

something that is a PSA PSN, P.S. P.S.N. P.S.N. That

many melitken BUNN is a matter to mitigate negation that

alliances political and business local is a bit marginalis with resentralization because the power

the power and so the government is very very much. What they work on being mung

in being being men being being made sojourner and sogoyer and sogain so.

So, they're also still get cheapretan and the do.

Dugan I, there there are some sarana that are

that's being to ensure to make sure that project resentralization this

while even the impact that not not so crowding

up so the conflict in the in the elite

it has too too too too something that

it's that there in in the book that I've read it

this book that we have been that we're making that program resentralization

this many there's many contradictions internal yeah and other they

can even runcing can runcinked uh conflict intra-oligarchy uh

at least uh atas or in the relationship with alliances at the level

so that the end up the end up the time the reason why to menertip process accumulation

in a predatoris that malha made become and one

one other is this which I know that I'm can abacacan

even that that, that's many PSN PSN this, I've been, I've got seen as far as

as far as cat a matter yeah. It's can mean, lead vacations social

and I think that what, what, what, the conflict between the people

people, local, with aparate care, with the government, with the capital,

it, it's, it's, it's more uncing while upon in the area that from from Jakarta is quite not

a good at time in HALMahara Psolewesi and it's and it's I think I'm that all

that the things that in Indonesia in 5, 10 years to the

uh what yeah uh full with what yeah process process that

be going on but but it's saling be contradictions

so the um the first agenda resentralization to be able

not not be able or not the other we we're

we we we're a period where what yeah

the people The people that the most marginal is, um, um, can be the impact from marginalization

their, the, the kind of articulation the importance of their as public good with the

way that the way, the, that's part, that's in the form of repressy the country

to their so. So, I'm, I'm sorry if I'm if I'm bringing a,

some of a gambaran that, uh, a bit suram but in I think

I'm realistic so yeah in the art we're in

Indonesia Amas we're making on quality quality of

human Indonesia we want to ABCD in in

in rhetoric in the foundation economic political in the

foundation of Indonesia that it's not opposite direction, which is

the impulsatan the power and the power of people who are not with important to redistribution

what? I want to ask the inverse or the converse what can what can make more than to beuwhack

to be good-resilan in context re-centralization what can what can be what can be that is

if it can be It's, uh, the data that's there's under the project

project resentralization it, it's not decorubsting. It's number one, in order to say.

But, in order for I'm not my god dundraan I'm sorry. Memang the reason for

the corruption, yeah. Hmm. Because the reasoned is to make a basis, basis,

uh, for a system patrunnasse that can't make sure that's not only for five years before that they're they're having

the support of bureaucracy, from the country, from hosha fromusa-pecille that can beel in the process to make up that five years

again, that they're in position that for that, for that, you know, duit is tambur-hubed with

And the way that you, you know, you know, that the world of the world of international also, also, also, you know, it's not. It's why for what, so, in Indonesia, that's. But, yeah, it's, so

corruption, that, I mean, I mean, I mean, something that, um, what, yeah, in the,

that's not, project, that, not will makeasel of, recentralization who's among the community

to make to make up corrupcy to be a certain because that's the people who are

people who I think that people that is what is material is that access

their access their to the public that can be corrupts to be corrupts to the

importance of the people. There is there. There's there's a new thing? Forgutant

executorner, it's more based on meritocracy thaning can patronage and or loyalty. I mean, I think,

the foundation that has been to be rubber first to be if it's that's actually based on logica

oligarchy that predatoris yeah, yeah, not be but to to

move the foundation to be a certain and this is not a one year ten years,

this is we're making it 28 years but the result of it's like so if you're

if you're if you're to bea a transformation that which the fact that

it's quite kind of endic the the time long of its

time. I mean, I'm sure you yeah. Because it's required that

foundation that foundation that men'tukes logica the work the economy

politics Indonesia, it's and for it. And for it, it's

need per baggy important that some this time from the process

to be to be organization and be challenge and be

what name-naman, uh, uh, but it's in the time, uh, men'tukan what

in the public good uh, that's about. And so, if there's, yeah, yeah, yeah,

yeah, if I'm, if, uh, if, uh, about, uh,

mackenay, uh, since the medicaan, how much the apparatus uh, the amountan

it, it's, it's, such, or not long- democratization. Sorry,

apparatus of the power of power of security in process Indonesia as menjerk to merdekaan

to mergul democracy or democratization now you know you that's like

it's will be going to be a long not so to be a time?

So, so this, the particular Indonesia merdeka So,

the institution the institution the most organized is a because they're in

the and the and the , the fact that they're in the position

tower that's good in the a kind of other when the

country not been not to think the time 50 on that was to make

make sense their between other other so they're nationalization of the

people other in their under the law under the period in the

in the 2010 on it's also that they're on

in administration and under government to govern soot

soot soot so so the story Indonesia has been

metepat the apparatus to the amount in a position where

he wants he wants to or he to make

to make to make the privilege material that

he he made it not there It's Now,

when Awal Reformations, it's spelt dergue in the art of

their need to out of DPR and then the company and yayasan

and yayasan mentara that debubberin but what the actually is that

actually actually shift so so what what the

what the power of the Tentara in economy and politic

it's more Trey Cree Cree Cree Cefa Coole-an-Tan 20-an-tawn, that's, in the level local. So,

the pinpinan Pembinae military to make, addaansi alliances with corporations at the

local, or perkebunan or percoman or partampangan, or with pucati and the holy-cota to give

to give a caran of care of the same they're making make sure a basic

material but we're the problem it's we know that we're we can beaue

per cent from the military and it is one that's something that has

been underong military to move to to be

other the non-militar since jama revolution Revolution. So,

so, what, the tradition and culture like that, that, that, what, what,

what, the, some, material that is the material that is to do not,

the institution that is not a tentara that, must be got to practice, practice normal, that is

something that has been there already 80 years, That's structured. This is interesting, but we're almost 1.5-jamb,

I'm going to say, I'm going to say. One other than the contradictions is that with the most of the military, again, to be in many, many, many, many of the economy, one other, potency contradictions, is that, that bureaucrat and politici, civil,

and that's , more more to be much many money this,

have to give, backy money to money. So, it's also

one of contradictions that we must be to be going to be going to

be able. Sorry, So, so it's a ketidat, same-an or ketimpangan it's to be a bigian from participation, the world.

Although they're timpang, but, not know how they're like, they're like, always participative. Yeah,

right. In, that, it's a aga-agal can, if I see. Yeah, and,

and, to be sure, it's not something that only there in Indonesia, right? Oh, yeah,

in America, in many democracy, in the world. So, so, what I mean, we're going to say, if we're going to be able to, if we're going to, if we're talking to the country and the country major states, we're going to,

people don't believe in the institutions of democracy. Because the institution democracy has been by super PACs, you know. Yeah. Acibatia is a person who can be rhetorica like Trump,

it's, they're not, because he's not a single-in-wakely a institution, whilelepun he from the party republic,

that. But, but it's that's a lot of people, it's, there's there's a

single, who then what's claim to representatisic representation the people people who

are people that are the part of the group that's the group of and and not

the fact accountability only to class class certain to be to the

community and to the cronin just and the Indonesia as betulm we're even

we're looking whileepo democracy If in polling, you, people are still like democracy and everything. But,

this, can, what, the person like the institution like in DPR or Parpol,

it's very under. Malah the percian to the tentara menigat. Or,

we see, that we're many critiques to have the abacxan from the government,

but, the president is more popular, sacanakan can be between private

president and the business and the general, you know, And, in the unethed not

the so, so there there disjuncture on the okay,

yeah, we're just be participation, but if it even down more

more, the level the people, the level, that

democracy that can't help them make up people, it's

because because we're we've got got got got got And nostalgia

Many of the people are you not pern't from the other other than not only only people who are not only

that's that's it's not that not that not sure that not sure that's not can't

bekerja but he not bekerja in a situation where there there's there's there's been

there and in mona all insubstuisi just be given to be able to people we're

we're we're looking in percerayan between opinion and policy and percerion

and what what we're doing in what we're in the narrative many people people who

people in the people I'm want to question the last I'm

sensitive of your time the nasehate what you can be give can give you

to give us for two ha one one that's one that

want to take S-3 in the other than I'm looking I'm just a serenarana,

see, this I think I'm in I'm not you're doing what which

what's not and not too be by the people say

you should you or learn this or learn this because if you

don't have you have been having passion to what you, you know,

learn that only will be able to be able to be able to be a lot of repressation high,

in the bidang it. So, if I, I can know many, in Indonesia, yeah,

the kids, if you can, yeah, if you're, yeah, just, but he may be

a al-sastra, that, yeah, so, just, so, rather, so,

so, so that's aalice sastra that's better than to be insinior that's making gudung gudung that you're gampangangor

so follow what your real interests are rather than to keep in the sound that's the path that you have to take

that you have to take that. That's just that's saderana also. Now, then what

other? Hope for young to learn about the political sociology or what?

Yeah, in order we're in there's there's there's two, yeah, in barcompetition

in the world, yeah. One, that's, I've been so, so,

so if if I'm going to school in the world the aspect

the aspect of the not, not want, no, to

have to, But that's not it's not it's not it's I've been a high

school who at a certain else not not can't get get-trimed but

he's he's really so that so so in one

that that it's high so so so so that

that's something that not that not can't even

even even while there there are in the world in the world it's always

be able to keep it's the people and the second is,

the this, I'm yeah, the persicap critical that's

hard because I'm, I'm also, I'm also, I'm

usually, I'm usually, if I'm not sure, I'm that I'm

not that's or the other with the people, and the ,

I mean, I think that's like that like that really, it's really to make the

data critical and curiosity from from the young young we're, now,

mendingmanger data critical is more more than making it than it's

English. Yeah, so, so, he must he'll be, to,

in think I, what I said that I'm, that I'm skeptist in and in all that's all that they're in and it's

as a good until proven otherwise. Yeah, always always, why what?

The benaran mutlac is so, that's been to be untinged by that. Yeah.

That, it's discount. Huh? Discount. Discount. Discount. Discount for nation building. Oh,

yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, this has been fascinating. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Yeah. Okay, my pleasure. Yeah. Teman, that's Fadi Hadis from Australia. Thank you.