Endgame with Gita Wirjawan - Vikram Sinha: Telco to Techco - Turning the Digital Table Upside-Down

Episode Date: October 4, 2023

Join Gita Wirjawan in conversation with the President Director & CEO of Indosat Ooredoo Hutchison (IOH), Vikram Sinha, to talk about some of the lessons learned from their successful merger. In the dialogue, Vikram also shares his notion of leadership towards oneself and others — which boils down to a continuous effort to find the sweet spot between empathy and hunger. #Endgame #GitaWirjawan #VikramSinha ----------------------- Supplementary Readings: https://www.periplus.com/p/9780008420413?utm_source=EG&utm_medium=Vikram https://www.periplus.com/p/9781529382044?utm_source=EG&utm_medium=Vikram ----------------------- Understand this Episode Better: https://sgpp.me/eps156notes ----------------------- SGPP Indonesia Master of Public Policy: [e-mail] | https://admissions.sgpp.ac.id | https://wa.me/628111522504 Other "Endgame" episode playlists: Daring Entrepreneurs | Wandering Scientists | The Take Visit and subscribe: SGPP Indonesia | Visinema Pictures

Indonesia is not just Jakarta, Surabaya or Bali, you know. It is not only that nickel-to-steel story. There is much more and many more things. The talent, the young digital native, you know, all those things stack up on Indonesia's side. So I started building on Gotong Riyong from there. Hello, teman, time. Hello, tem, time. Hello, time.

Hi, we're kind of kentang Sinha. Beliala himpinan Dino Hutchison. Vikram, so nice to see you and to have you here. It's an honor,

Gita, you know, sitting with somebody like you. It's an absolute honor for me. I want to start out with question on how you grew up. Because I think,

you know, a lot of people, I think, believe that the success of anybody is attributable to the values that somebody would have been brought up with. Tell us about yourself. You know, I'm a small town boy.

So I grew up in a steel city of India called Jamseipur. And my father was initially from an education background and then a HR professional. My mother, again, professor, then principal of a B-8 college, which is teaching the teachers. And I had a younger sister, so two of us, that is where my upbringing was. It's incredible.

You spoke about the value, you know. I was a bit of an average student. and my sister was always like in her class he'll be first. So I still remember a parent's teacher meeting where, you know, my teacher told my mom, is he an adopted son or what? Look at the mom, see, like look at the dad and look at his sister. But there was a lot of focus on value system, education. So this is how I grew up.

that put a lot of pressure on you, the fact that you were deemed, call it inferior to your sister, did that catalyze you? I think this is something, you know, good that you asked me. You know, first time, you know, somebody has asked me like this. I think the way I put it is I was very blessed. On one side, it stayed with me that, yes, I want to make a point. Yeah. that, you know, I'm also a good son.

I am also because of everyone around me or so much of focus. And when it comes to studies, they are top notch. But both my dad and my mother, they supported me on whatever I want to do. So, so, but that's to a point that stayed with me. Every time, you know, if I do a fast forward, you know, that was what I told you during my school days. Today, today, I have become an example.

If anybody in my relative, if their children is not the top notch, they are doing well. So they say, okay, if Vikram can do well, just focus on being a bit overall a more smart student. Be a bit street smart. Do what you do. So I have become an example of that, that yes, there's a path forward, you know, when you drive. your passion when you build on your value system. What about math? The family put a lot of premium on, you know, being able to be good in math for science.

This is something, you know, when I was growing up, we had only two, three options. You have to get it right. So one, the most premium was if you are the civil servant, if you are clearing. If not, are you a doctor or a engineer? To do all these three things, you have to be good in math. So there was a lot of focus. But I think I was never an outstanding student on maths, but that whole focus on getting it right in terms of math, physics, numbers.

Really, it tells me till today. You know, till today, I don't need calculator. for everything, my mind. And that gives me a bit of a competitive edge. Right. So, yes. That, and I keep telling this to my children, that, look, I have been supported on what I want to do. Yeah.

But don't compromise on math. Please, at least, you know, make sure you enjoy playing with numbers. Don't run away from numbers. Yeah. You know, there's this increasing perception by way of the fact that, you know, people from India are succeeding in many fronts, right, in many geographies, in politics and policy, in academia, entrepreneurship, consulting, tech, banking, and all that, right? And there's this increasing perception that the Indians are just smart, right, in numbers, but also smart in articulating. Talk to us about how your parents and whatever ecosystem you would have been in would have taught you to help fill that or check that box. This is something, you know, I have been asked few times.

you arrive globally, you see Indian talent and tech booming. There have been a lot of successful, not only the big names, but at a working level also. Two three things I will tell Geeta here. One is the empathy piece. You know, most of these guys, if you see, they all come from a very humble background. So, you know, one is empathy. second is the hunger and competitiveness. Nothing comes easy.

When you live in a country with a billion population, right from the school admission. It's a long cue. Right from school admission. So if there are 100 applicants, there are 10 seats. So you have to have that. That is the upbringing. You don't take anything for granted.

There is nothing called social security and all those things. that builds a bit of a DNA. And then the last thing which I have seen off late, you know, especially this whole internet boom getting on to the digital era, it opened up the knowledge platform. Right. So I see them tapping onto it and leveraging that whole opportunity. But it is a mix of empathy and the hunger, you know,

to stand on your. your feet and make sure also the upbringing, you know, till today, if my boss tells me something, I will be taking it very seriously, you know. It's not that I'm scared that my job will go up, but it is the upbringing. It is the overall surrounding, you know. So I think some of these things have helped the Indian talent, you know, and especially on the empathy piece, Gita, you know, coming from humble background, you know, you know what it takes, you know, you know, and nothing comes on a platter. What taught you, or what would have taught the Indian people to be able to articulate their thoughts?

Because I would compare that with, say, the Indonesians. I mean, if you've been here long enough to know that, the Indonesians, they're cognitively equipped, but they're not as verbal, as articulate, as you would probably want them to be, right? What do you think would be some of the things that the Indonesians could learn so that they can be better storytellers? I think this is, again, a very good point you are highlighting.

The first which comes to my mind is British has left English. I think the Dutch did not do the favor here. That helps. Very fundamental. So I'll tell you, in India, if you go to top ten cities, right from Delhi to Hadrabah to Bangalore,

on corporate world, the first language of communication is English. And that helps, you know. I still, when you are in parliament, it is very political, you have to speak Hindi, put aside politics. Right. But that helps. You know, that helps India over China also. You know, so, so I think that English bit is something, you know, which is when I, when I compare Indonesia, I personally, I personally, I personally feel they are equally talented, you know, but they are not able to articulate.

Yeah. So one is something around culture, you know, which is, and then I keep encouraging when I go to small towns like Balikpapa, I was a Tarakan. You know, I was telling English is not also my mother language. English is a tool to perform better. So I think, and I tell them that if you don't have to be perfect in English, you know, sometime I feel it when you are, you, they understand much better English than speaking. So sometime, you know, when I say they understand 70% but when they are replying, they feel they'll make mistake.

Yeah. And I think somewhere, you know, culturally, the more people grow senior in Indonesia, they are, very scared of making mistakes. So this is my personal reading. I might be wrong, but I think this is one thing, which the new generation and all, how we can support them on equipping themselves. These are tools.

And I tell you it is how important it is to do storytelling. Otherwise, you will have everything you are not able to articulate. What would you tell the Indonesian people that some of the things that they could do to overcome that fear. Because, you know, clearly the Indians have been tremendous at projecting soft power by way of telling the story or being able to tell the stories in English. And I've been telling as many Indonesians as possible. Just imagine if there's a hundred million Indonesians that could speak English, I think the story about Indonesia would be different.

What do you think would be one or two things that they could do to overcome that fear? The one thing which I'll tell them to be more hungry and be more confident. Don't be complacent. Don't be content. It's all come from hunger. Yeah.

You know, the good thing about Indonesia is, and it is incredible. You know, the good thing is, I don't see so many beggars here. I don't see on the roads. and all, you know, which is very good. But somewhere, you know, there is a lot of people are content with, you know, so have that bigger aspiration.

Once you have a bigger aspiration, you will be more challenging yourself. You will be more confident about yourself. And you are absolutely right. English is a tool. So put aside politics, you know, we all need to promote BASA. we need to, you know, be because Indonesia itself is the power of BASISC connects. In India, there are, I don't know how many languages. Hundreds.

In India from one place to another, that way Indonesia has a strength. You know, at least the BASA in some of the part of Indonesia is little different from what it is in Jakarta. But at least it's correct, which is very good, you know, which India is struggling. You know, they don't have still, you know, South India doesn't relate to North India. to, you know, East India. So that way they have a strength. But if English is needed to be a tool for you to be effective, if it is needed to meet your full potential, take it.

Take it as a tool. So I think it all starts with aspiration. If you have a bigger aspirations, some of these things will be sorted out. I think Bahasa has been a real asset in unifying and uniting the Indonesian people. So that's not sort of like the baseline, right? But now the onus is upon us. We want to go to the next level. I think we've got to be able to internationalize.

And that can only be done by way of mastering that medium of being able to speak English. I put it whatever it is. Yeah, whatever it takes. That hunger needs to be there. That hunger needs to be there. If you need to learn Chinese, so be it. If you need to learn. Or Spanish, Japanese, Italian, whatever.

I was put on a country which was French speaking. I could have said I can't, but I didn't knew. But I took it and then I was figuring out how to do it. But I had the hunger that I'm not going to get content here. I landed in Congo Brazzaville, which is the, at immigration also, form is no English, only French. And I was like so little. It is like Siddiqui, Siddiquid Basa. I had a choice to say, no, I'll not take.

But I took that pain to go there, learn French, to get that opportunity. So whatever language, use it as a medium and tool for you to get your aspiration and lock your full potential. That should not be a constraint. And I think I keep talking to my senior leadership team, especially in region. Right. They are so good. But sometimes, you know, just that communication, you know, constrained them. And I've seen some very good success, you know.

One of my head of region, who is in Kalimantan, you know, 2019 when I landed, he will not open his mouth. And he was one of my brightest guy. Wow. I pushed him personally whenever I travel. Last time when I landed there, we were having a conversation in the car. I was happy he was talking to me much more comfortably in English. But I was so happy.

It was music to my ear when he started talking with his team in English. Wow. 150 people, you know, in Balikpapa and he's in a kind of a small mini town hall. Wow. And I gave that example. See, look how. And he must be 50 at that age, you know. Awesome.

So I think that all triggers from the hunger. You have to put yourself and come out of comfort zone and start enjoying some of these things. And recognizing the value. Yes. Right. You were famously quoted for saying success is not final. Failure is not fatal.

Just got to keep trying, right? I want to put that in the context of your international wisdom. You've traveled and worked in so many countries. Myanmar, seashells, Congo, Indonesia. Kenya and all these places. What would have been some of the key learning points in terms of failures and successes that brought about, you know, wisdom to you?

I call myself a global citizen. And I think my average stay in every country was three and a half year. This is the only country where, you know, longer half. Close to five year. And, you know, the mandate to me is another three year. But more than that, you know, there is so much to contribute and learn, that keeps me going.

One common thing, Gita, which I picked up, is when you talk about success and failure, first thing is we have to get it in our mind that it is okay to fail. If you are not failing, means you are not trying too many things. Yeah. Coming back to, so this is common, you know, every country, you know, there is a fear of failure. This is very common, one thing. But more on Indonesia perspective, when I landed here, one of the thing I told my close to 3,000 plus employees, it is okay to fail. What, it is not okay to keep repeating the same mistake, but it is very much okay to fail.

You know, here I learned a lot. COVID was, I'm not an indoor guy, but I enjoy having meetings where I can read the body language. Whatever I say here, people will say, see up. So I understood, see up doesn't mean yes. So what I'm trying to say is, I keep teaching people. Tell me no. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, I say that all the time. So, you know, it took me some time, but on Zoom, how do you do? On MS team, how do you do? But I can see in his face, he's telling him, yeah, but he's not convinced. Nothing will happen. So one is, it's okay to fail. Second, you know, I'm a very strong believer of that whole concept of beat yesterday.

What does that mean? You don't compete against anyone else. you compete against yourself as long as you are improving. It's a continuous improvement journey. So for simplicity, my tagline is beat yesterday. Just make sure that you are improving, you know, whatever you are doing, whether you are trying to lose weight, whether you are trying to improve something,

don't get stagnant. You know, either you go up or you go down. You know, if you think I can maintain it will not happen. It will start deteriorating. So some of these things, you know, I personally feel blessed. When you are on a high also, you need to keep telling yourself that this will not continue. Yeah, it's not going to last. This will not going to last.

And I'm telling you, personally, I feel very blessed. I've been on a good run from one country to another. Indonesia, you know, I genuinely, you know, wait to all my stakeholder, my employees here. But I keep talking to myself, it's not going to last. Also, you know, you have been in such important position. Life is beyond positions. Life is beyond this chair. So we have to train ourselves, you know, not get very attached with all these.

Sometimes you can come back to Earth. Yeah. So I think that is why I made this quote, you know. Talk about your ability to make cultural adjustment because that's important for the young Indonesians, right, who want to travel the world, who want to help internationalize Indonesia. Because they've got to inevitably move to other places, right, to be exposed and to make a case for Indonesia. Talk about that. So if you want to become a global manager, the most important thing is to adapt on culture. So the first ground rule which I follow is,

whenever I land to any country, the first thing is to learn and adapt. Don't try to preach. Right. So when I was in Kenya, you know, and I was very fresh in Africa from India. So in India, we are a bit workaholic. So Saturday, it's a five-day working week,

but on Saturday also we work for five, six hours, you know, most of the time. And one of my other colleague, he was the CEO of Africa, you know, in Kenya. And then he made a rule that I want to make sure all my key people come to office on Saturday. Nobody turned up. He was very hassled, you know. So when he was making this rule, one of my old colleague, he was in Tanzania, you know. So the group CEO circulated this mail to everyone.

See, look, he is like bringing discipline. He's trying to bring more accountability, blah, blah, blah. The other guy who had worked with me in Coca-Cola, he had been in Africa for last seven, eight years. He calls me. He said, this guy is your friend. I said, yes. Tell him he's going wrong.

I said, what happened? I said, I'll not tell you now, but watch out. Believe you, me, for three months, it was complete. Nobody came. then you know we were on a coffee and he said vikram i was feeling like it is in subordination you know what the culture there is on friday night people party till 4 a.m so they will not wake up how will they come in other countries too they party until 4 so whatever you know so if you look at Kenya you know if they are rich poor whichever class whatever money they have

have, that's the culture. So, you know, they are like Friday, the traffics are high, the nightlife. If they are sleeping at 3am or 4 a.m., how do you expect them to come to office? So it's not that they don't want to come. Again, on Sunday, they are at church. So you have to adapt, you know, if you are understanding and adapting, then you are a most effective. These culture nuances, you know, your ability, this is one. So how you are adapting, how you know, you know, he can say.

I have a lot of best practice. Yeah. Doesn't work. You are in a country. First, respect that culture. Adapt. Then you are shaping towards a global manager. Second, play on the strength.

Yeah. You know, don't criticize. I hate global citizen or so-called expat. They are in some country and they crib. I don't like this. This is not good. They are incompetent. I said, why are you here?

Just for dollar? Yeah. So please pick up the strength and play on the strength, you know, because the least you can do is to bring positive vibes. Yeah. Why are, who has put gun on your head to be here if you are complaining about things? So the way I put it, Gita, is every country, every culture, every set of people have strength. Pick up those strength and double down on that.

So I think these are the two things which has helped me country after country. And you, you know, once you start, we all live in a glass house. Once you start demonstrating, walk the talk, give them the respect. If you are walking that extra mile, you understand their cultural nuances, what works for them, what is there inside going on. A little bit also, you know, you get it. You will get 10x more back. Yeah.

So that has helped me significantly. I think you've walked the top. And I want to push this on the merger, right, because you've been lauded as a key champion in making sure that the merger took place in a good way by third parties, right? Not just by yourself and your employees. Talk about how you spearheaded this undertaking from a cultural standpoint, from a professional standpoint, organizational standpoint, political, geopolitical. and all. I mean, lots of things must have gone through your mind and you pulled it off. I'll say with you, this is very fresh in my mind. You know, I'll share with you, jujudely. Because this is like a flashback. Yeah. So it all started, you know, when I got a call from one

shareholder. So if you look at our merger, we have a kind of a. complex structure. To say the least. To say the least. Between CK. H.S.N. And then we have government and we also have a local strong shareholder. You've got the Indonesian side. You've got the Hong Kong side.

You've got the Qatar side. And within each side, you've got layers of complexities. I was here working as chief operating officer. And I was very focused on making sure that, you know, I deliver. my mandate. I was a three-year turnaround and that was working well. So first thing which helped me was I was not insecure that whether after merger I'm here, what role I'll do. I was enjoying my role. The other thing I was very clear was that, you know, I need to drive the whole operation till the last day, you know, because these are things

can happen or cannot happen. You don't know till the time it happens. Right. Correct. With that mindset and background, I get a call somewhere in 2021 in September, you know, from Doha that, you know, we want you to lead. So I took a pause and I said two questions, you know, at this call was from the highest level. First, only Doha or is it all of you? He said, no, you know, all of us collectively, which is the local shareholder. Hong Kong. I said that's very reassuring for me, you know. Second, I said, do we want to make this transaction successful or you want to make this merger successful? These are two different things. People at shareholder level, you know, they have a lot of priorities and we have to

respect that. So I was very straight in asking this question, whether you want to to get this transaction done or you want to make this merger successful. And the answer I got was no, it's our reputation also. You want to make the merger successful. The same conversation I had with Hong Kong. Same question. Again, I got the same at the highest level, you know, answer back. I told them, give me just two days.

I'm very honored that, you know, this is a role which is bigger than, you know, what I have done ever. But just give me two days, you know. So the only thing which was playing on my mind, you know, I had met a lot of people. And everyone told me that first, telco merger have struggled, joint control, disaster.

So the thing which came to my mind is that, look, this has not worked. And if we can make it work, this that time if was there this will be creating history at least you know I have an opportunity to create absolutely

the other thing which clicked to my mind is that this merger is good for Indonesia because that I have been in this country I know telco is a scale business only one company cannot fulfill the need of the digital infrastructure at least you need a strong number two this is a very big

country you know whatever you do you need that So that was playing on my mind. So I came back to both the shareholder and I said, it's an honor, you know, and I will, my only request is there are certain guiding principle. I want to share with you. And if you support me, I'll feel more confident. So I put four guiding principle. The number one was, I said, I want to make one plus one equal to 11. What does that mean?

Maximize, not optimise. Right. So this was my first. Second, I said, I will put more priority on experience over cost. This was a bit controversial. What do you mean? So I got questions on that. What do you mean?

I said, look, I will deliver the synergy value because the analysts are only looking at the synergy value, whether you will deliver 300 or 400 million of US dollar synergy value, whether you will do it in three year or four year. I said that's the mandate. But customer doesn't care about merger, no merger. I have to deliver the better. If it is not adding value to them, that is why merger fail. Employee, I can't galvanize the employee on synergy value.

I have to galvanize them on growth. And in a scale organization, I can't be talking to everyone. There are a point where they need to decide. So these guiding principles are very important. The third one was we have to ensure that there is no bias. And this is where your point comes on culture. You know, 80% of my last 18 months is on culture integration. So people ask me, oh, you will follow Qatar culture or you will follow Hong Kong culture.

You know, it's not easy. People were curious. They were very capo. You know, you understand at top 100 leader, I have 140 people. They all know they are senior guys that eventually there will be 75 box. Right. So how do you do this with absolute transparency and fairness and how do you do it fast? So on culture side, you know, what I can talk about is these are the softer respect,

the number and all will follow. If you get the softer aspect on no quota system, no bias, how you bring trust and transparency, and if you have to take difficult decision also, don't hesitate. Do it with fairness and do it with respect. If you hold on to those things, you will not just do justice to yourself, your company and to the other person also. But it needs your... your personal attention, you know, talking to people on ground, listening to them and being adaptive.

And this also taught me that you should have healthy disrespect for your own reason. Geeta, one thing this merger has taught me as we grow up in life, we bring our egos first and we keep defending them, we keep defending them. So I have the right to criticize the old Vikram. When I do that, I encourage my leadership team also that we need to have healthy disrespect for our own reason. Wow. So it is important because otherwise, you know, it is a blame game.

Okay, who did this? Who told that? What happened? I have been doing on one side people integration. Our plan was to integrate it in seven months. it in three months because I know it is not good for anyone. How did I learn that? Because I was listening to junior most people.

I was listening to middle level people. So you need to learn on the move. Whether I keep one brand or two brand, consultant can tell you what they can. But you need to be close to your customer, your employees. You need to listen. And then once you decide,

you have to communicate in a simple, clear manner. It is not about the head office guys. It is about the last guy on the ground. He knows the clarity of his role. Every day morning, he knows he's not insecure. And the other piece is connect them to the bigger purpose. Within one month, I realize that what will take me home is the larger purpose of not only selling SIM card.

We have 100 million. You know, the first time in the history of merger, in first 12 months, we have added 6 million customers. Most of the analysts were asking me how much you will lose, whether you will lose 10% or 25%. So before I can answer, they will not listen. He will tell me, tell us how much you will lose.

So when we demonstrated 6 million addition, you know, they were like, okay, and still they are watching. That is it sustainable? So it's okay, it's fair. Yeah, but the point which I'm trying to tell you is these are outcome. What goes behind is, is this whole, it's a people and culture. And culture sometimes get misused. You know, you have to walk the talk.

Yeah. You have to be authentic. You have to connect all your employee to the purpose. So we are so passionate about not only connecting, about empowering every Indonesian. Right. Because Indosat, you know, you will know more and better than me, is the first company who connected Indonesia to the world. So there is so much of, I started my career from Coca-Cola. I know the power of brand.

Yeah. You go to any daysa, Abu Patan, Kachamatan, Indusat needs no introduction. Yeah. So the whole purpose of empowering every Indonesian, I can see sparks. the moment I talk about purpose, the Samangat voice is very different. So I really double down on it. And I've been doing it with complete,

genuine and single-minded focus. Things revolves around it. You know, people ask me, you want to be number one. I said, who cares? As long as I'm beating yesterday, as long as I'm true to the purpose. We are enjoying the journey.

You know? How do we deliver marvelous experience? And then to do that, first you have to deliver employee experience. So this is the journey where we are in now. How personally, it must have been really tough to lower your ego. Must have been really tough to show disrespect to the old vikram. Was that because you knew resolutely that that's what it was going to take? for you to spearhead the merger process.

There was no other way. You are absolutely right. I realize that because generally I have stayed in any country three, three and a half year. Right. And then completing three years and I have to start a new inning. It has to start from me. Yeah.

And, Engeeta, this is not easy. Yeah. I still say I did it because we were on a high. It becomes even more difficult when you're not doing well. But at least if I said if I can't do it now, I'll never be able to do it. So I have put a very strong big board outside my office that leave your ego before you come in. Just these are messaging, you know. Color, these posters, these are all messaging, you know.

So it has to start from me. And if it's like memory muscle, you know, you have to practice it. It's not easy. And then I wanted my direct reportee to then it goes down. So culture change happens and starts from top. Wow. Otherwise it will not work. But I can again tell you it is not easy.

I'm sure. Here in Indonesia, it is not about Vikram. They, the position CEO is like, okay, whatever he says is right. And I have to stand up and say, we did it wrong. And Vikram, that old Vikram did it wrong. It's okay. Because in a four-year term, you make so many things and something will go wrong. It's okay.

It's okay to make mistake. If you do 10 things, three will go wrong. Talk about some of the things that you went through that didn't go assplant and you had to fine-tune or you had to refine within reasonable boundaries. Yes. So the one is getting the people integration, you know, top 100 leader. So I had so first I said I was working with one of the top notch consultant to have a org design which support my three year plan. So if you if you look at at a in minus one so see your direct reporting below that, we had around 76 boxes.

but I had 130 people and the plan was to get this done in three months. I did that in one month. I said, I can't have insecure people. You know, people at an at senior level because there are a lot of people under them and if he or he is insecure, what will happen? This was okay, we did it

and the success rate was very high. We did it with fairness. The challenge was, this is where I had to have healthy decisions. I didn't want it to be branded. I wanted to be a new Vikram. I don't want people to think that I am Doha or I am Hong Kong. I am here for I-O-H. I am Indosat Uridu-H chisin.

If you don't get it right, you will always be branded and biased. Subtime perception is reality. So I think you have to demonstrate. The other one, which was even more complex. So the biggest synergy value, you know, out of, 400 around 275 million US dollar is coming from integrating our

network. So when you put physical sites Indosat and HHSN3 put together from 28,000 physical side we moved to 62,000 and we had to eliminate

17,500 duplicate sites. So the consultants and everyone, This was all done pre-merger and that is why, you know, we were telling there's a synergy value. So the whole plan was to do it in 26 months. My focus was not to bring synergy value faster than needed. And again, this taught me if you have the larger purpose, you solve bigger problem in a more clear manner.

My focus was customer experience. I said customer, I was very clear traveling on the ground. customer don't care about merger, no merger. If you are an IM3 customer, you should, at least hold on to what you are getting. I have bought something with certain expectation. It should not deteriorate.

So my whole philosophy was hold and grow. First six months hold and then grow. You know, because I'll have more spectrum. I'll have more sight. But where things go wrong because of all this dis-energy, you know, on the fly you are, dismantling, trying to bring,

experience deteriorate. And this is what I picked up in Vodafone idea, India merger, which was of scale. This is what I picked up in Italy. You know, this is what I picked up in Australia. You know, this is where people lose anywhere between 7 to 25% of customer. Because why will you care if you start getting

deteriorated service? So when I was trying to solve that, I had to change. the whole design principle and this was complex. I had not only my team, I had big partners like Huawei, Nokia, Erickson at the highest level.

And these are senior guys if you have made certain design principle and suddenly you have to change. You know, my senior leadership team also became a bit. So I had to put myself in and say that, okay, it is the Vikram who took that wrong reason and let's change it. Let's not.

drag it. So, you know, those war room and the purpose was very clear that we are doing this for improving customer experience at every site level. Don't look at averages. Every customer matter. Wow. So it was not easy. I still remember last year that September, October, because we have to change the design and there are 10,000 people working. So if you change something, it has an impact, it has financial impact. So who will take, so it has to be led by the senior most member. You have to, this is where you have to say, don't blame anyone. If it is, it is me, it is disrespect for my D's.

And I don't want to say it is my CTOD or it is my CCOD or it is and or it is who are a reason or Nokia, it is me. So when you give that cover that let's do what is right, don't try to. and it has to be called out and you have to take. So this is where these are some of the things, Gita, which taught me that how important it is to have healthy disrespect. So these are the two examples I can tell you.

How did you deal with moments when you felt that there was one person in the room that didn't believe what you had in mind? I think my learning is you cannot get to on a scale operation, you cannot get to perfection. As long as you get to 80, 90%. Good enough.

Yes, you have to, you know. And let me give you a small example. When I said merger is good for Indonesia, merger is good for employees. I was reading the script. First person to believe was me because you keep telling this, keep telling this.

After two months, it was my 13 direct report. They started believing it at 80%. And then after six months, my top 100 employee. Wow. I don't say my 3,000 plus employees plus partner. But now at least, you know, you talk to anybody junior most, 80% of them will say that we have, this is on the work.

This is what we are here. That's a hell of a number. So I think you have to have a right balance between speed and perfection. You know, my hunch is if I get to 70, 80, you have to take risk. And that is where I say it is okay to fail. But what I have learned is don't waste your time on reviews. Yeah. Focus on problem solving.

Yeah. Focus on resolving friction. you know things which matter get involved at a design principle level Gita before this merger and till today a little bit for me you know I was not about what for me strategy is not what it is about how but from how I used to quickly move to who yeah but this merger taught me that if you you can only get a right who once you spend if this really matters for you and for your organization spend your time on the design principle of who sorry how think through end to end because if you are

a CEO you you have the best authority to think through end to end look at the how get the design principle, get the hedgehog. What will help you scale it up? Right. And then get the who in and leave it to him. But straight away, I have made mistakes, straight away from how to who, hire a who. And I see two, three cases, the who is failing. Do I blame him or blame myself?

I want to explore this. When you admit mistakes in front of your colleagues or stuff, have. Do you actually get more respect in hindsight, I guess? Yes. I think yes and no. Yes for younger employees. Still, the average age where it is more than 45 and all, they don't like it. The younger one want to see a more authentic. Yeah, that's what I thought. Yeah. But, but, uh, uh, The average age, because Indosat has a strong legacy with Hatchez and was a younger organization. So that is why I say yes and no.

What are some of the things that you think you could have done differently or better since 2021? This is something is always keep playing on my mind. Two things I'll say, one, you know, don't hold on to people, you know. And then sometimes it is very difficult. you have been working with someone, especially at a senior level. If he or he is not the right fitment, you know, it's better you take a call. You know, it's like there are Saturdays, I'm firefighting, and then my wife will tell me what's going on, Vikram.

I said, yeah, you know, John again screwed up. He said, I've heard this name a few times. Same story, different day. So, you know, my learning has been that, you know, you have to do it and do it with fairness, respect, but don't hold on. So this is one learning. I think I could have done better because we are in the people business. And then when you have such turnaround mandate and when you have such important thing, you know, you cannot compromise. I think I could have done better, you know.

this is one learning and there's always an opportunity. The other thing is the ability to really get the value system. You have to align on the value. If you are on a mission, when you have a choice between a top performer or a extraordinary employee versus a team player, I think I'll earn more towards a team player you know because yeah i'm i'm i'm running a bit of a large scale operation and you know maybe this guy is not in the right place he can do something as a subject matter expert but i'll put more weightage on on team player versus a solid top performer individual individual contributor he he can be

the best guy but what is very important is to get the team dynamics you know right So I will really put more weightage on team player. You've been very loud about Gotongro-Royang, right? Just put that in the context of how you see the organization going forward. And, you know, I've read quite a number of books narrated by successful leaders, right? One of which is Satya Nadela. It's just amazing how he spent so much time in his weekly meetings. meetings, not talking about numbers, just talking about whether or not his, you know, lieutenants

spend time fishing over the weekend, spend time barbecuing over the weekend. And that entail empathetic, you know, tendencies that rubbed off on how actually Microsoft would deal with all the stakeholders. And there's so much more empathy and all of a sudden it's translated. into better numbers overall. And you talked about Gotong Royong. Just let's explore this. Gotong Rayong is very close to my heart.

Yeah. But before I build on that... Does that go back to your Indian roots? For sure. Some of these things are very common, you know, and a lot of things what I see on my upbringing in India and Indonesia. In fact, Indonesia is plus one. Yeah.

And Gotong Riyong is one such example. You touched up. upon this word empathy. You know, Satya, Satya is like a role model for many of us. Yeah. But I learned this from my dad. He was an HR professional, you know. I lost him this month, early this month.

But he left me with two clear message. Always be optimistic and always be kind and have that empathy. You know, he has a background of XRRI, HR, Tata steel and all. So dealing with 70,000 employee. You know, so, and this is what I hear from you. Right. Satya is doing and all.

So that has been on my upbringing value system. Building that to Gotong Reong, you know, I'll tell you, today we are successful. We are not done, but it has been a good, as you said, through third parties also. You know, it has been heading towards one of the most successful merger. It is because of this whole principle and philosophy around Gautier. Tongreong. Two, three example, I'll give you

network integration such as scale integration. I could not have done it alone. So I'm working with a partner first mindset. And I keep telling all my leadership team, we have to make money

with our partner, not from our partners. You know? Sout a little bit, very big difference. This is very important. So on one side, merger gave me the scale.

and if you want to attract the best partner, they want scale. All these big guys, whether it is Silicon Valley, China, they will not give you attention until unless you have scale. And this is where I say it all started building up from being in the right place and at the right time. Indonesia's story. Look at Indonesia, you know, you look at any numbers in terms of digital gross merchandise value,

GDP growth, you know, we need to talk about this much more. You know, there is so much of opportunity. Indonesia is not just Jakarta, Surabaya or Bali, you know. It is not only that nickel to steel story. There is much more and many more thing. The talent, the young digital native, you know, all those things stack up on Indonesia's side. So I started building on Gotong Riyang from there. So, so if you look at this philosophy of Indonesia and Gotong Riyong, I keep telling my partner that we want to solve real challenges with our partner.

I can't do it alone. So all the big corporates here, whether it is Parthamina, Mandri, BCA, there are customers. When I talk to their CEO, I said, if I know these are. are the top three challenges you are struggling and I want to make an attempt to solve it. I don't want to do it alone. I will bring this whole ecosystem of the best partner in the world and then we do it. If I try doing it alone, if I think that, you know, I want to take everything on the value chain. It will not work. And the example which I want to talk to you about is the integration. You know, this 26 month integration, we did it in 12 months. It's

It is only because of this partner first approach. And first time in the history of telco business, instead of penalty, I use reward. Carrant as opposed to stick. Yes. So all those things are part of contract. And the CEO, I don't need to keep reminding them if you follow you. This is a part of contract. Right.

The chief procurement officer legal, that's done. It's okay. But as a CEO, my narrative was, let's do this. The reward and recognition, we did a proper reward night with a lot of recognition. See, we all deal with people. So money is not everything. Money is important. But how you treat people, how you treat your partner, how you work with them, how you connect.

I have been connecting all my strategic partner to the larger purpose. So I try getting the like-minded partner. But the Gotong-Reyong philosophy is much deeper. You go to villages, you know, how people come together. without asking what is there for me. Let's get together and get it done. So that has been the approach. When you create upside,

when you really solve problem, everyone will be taken care. But if you are worried about what is there for me. So I think this philosophy is very, very strong. And I've been benefiting from that. And I want to contribute much more. And then there are people, you know, who are ready to come and,

put the skin in the game for the larger purpose. We are in that journey and I'm a very strong believer. And I keep talking about this in all my international forum that you have to come and see and learn from this whole philosophy of Gotongriang. It is a simple thing like collaboration, but it is deep into Indonesia DNA. And this is a very powerful thing which can differentiate it.

We can solve any problem. I want to shift to the next topic of how your organization, as one of a few in a country, could help usher what's been labeled as this massive future of the digital economy, right? The numbers range between 15 to 20 percent of the GDP. Do you think you will be content with just being an enabler? Or do you see yourself as potentially morphing into a different sort of animal going forward? I think, Gita, this is a very good question. Yeah. First thing on my head was, let's create history by ensuring.

ensuring that this Indonesia merger is the most successful merger. It is not about Indonesia merger, because there's a lot of policy intervention, you know, Omnibus law and all, which has come behind what we are seeing today. With this, to your point, one thing I see can be a game changer for Indonesia, you know, where Indonesia can leaf frog when we talk about future. Right. Generative AI. And I'll tell you why I say so. The digital infrastructure, there is a lot of interest in Indonesia, you know, and the talent while on one side there is a skill gap where we need to see how we can scale

up fast. Right. Yeah. But on the other side, it is a very digital native. Right. So generative AI, everyone is starting. Why can't we leaf frog? to solve because it brings productivity increase as high as 40%.

It opens up new opportunity. So instead of being scared or thinking it will disrupt you, I see this happening in India also. How Indonesia and India, these countries can take leaf frog. Why everything has to come from Silicon Valley? At least, you know, we need to make, and that has been happening. You know, so I think this whole piece, and this is where we have started a project called Project Maranti. And I had the opportunity to meet Bob, who is the group CEO of McKinsey during G20.

And he said, Vikram, I have full confidence in Indonesia. We will support you. So they have come in as an impact partner. And then I have some of the best global partner like Google, Tech Mahindra, Cisco is also, you know, talking to us. And then I have some of the best local partner. I have Jerry Yang, Patrick, you know. So I think it's that, again, that whole Gotongri-Rion, all of us coming together.

So what we want to do is to solve real problem. You know, we are getting into 5G. It's not about speed game. Yeah. There's so much of investment. What 5G will help us on consumer side on industry 4.0? For that, we have to get ready. Otherwise, all these investment will be waste.

Similarly, how all these emerging technology. So we are all first looking at how can we solve some of these real problem. And while doing that, from a shareholder point of view, we want to get our fair share. Telco, if you see last in 3G and 4G era, was not able. and I don't blame them. We have to blame ourselves. Believe you, me, I don't blame OTT,

neither I blame regulator. We have been self-inflictive, you know? Yeah. And COVID for me was an eye-opener. The respect for telco sector in the eyes of policymaker,

whether it is work from home, you know, education from home or even getting entertained from home. So people saw the important role. The backbone is telco, connectivity. But moving forward, While we solve real problem, how do we get the fair share in that value chain is something I'm very conscious of.

And I believe that at least at Indosat Oridu, Hutchison, we need to get this right when we are getting into building up on 4G and 5G. And the another unique thing which is happening is all the big guys also, you know, they understand that they need to be more fair to the country. first and to the partner on the ground because Wall Street is also very demanding. The next level of growth will not come. So I have been working with my team. This is where we need to learn to have healthy disrespect for ourselves. Don't blame other. What we could have done differently?

We were inward looking. We were just focusing on cutting each other, price, price. People are looking for value. So I think you will see some good thing coming and hopefully we can make Indonesia. proud and we can make good example. I want to appeal the eye in a little bit more here. I mean, if you read the reports by some of the pundits out there, the opportunity coming from AI, staggering, right?

And you know, some would say $50 trillion, some would say even to the extent of $100 trillion in the next 10 to 15 years, it'd be a mockery if Indonesia is not participatory. in that, right? I mean, there's a risk that most of that is going to accrue to only China and the U.S. There's less risk that India is going to miss out

than Indonesia missing out on this bandwagon, right? So, I mean, you belong to an organization that sees this coming. This train is coming, right? and you're vested in making sure that Indonesia is a beneficiary of this bandwagon coming.

So is there a risk that we're going to miss out on this train in a big way? I mean, is there a risk that most of the $100 trillion will accrue to countries other than Indonesia? And if that's the case, what are some of the things that we could do to, mitigate the risk of our missing the bandwagon. Absolutely there's a risk. Yeah. You know, and I'm scared of that from IOUH point of you. Yeah.

So as a CEO, there's a risk that I'll become irrelevant. Yeah. So first thing, Gita, at your point, people need to take it seriously at a country level, at a company level. Thank you. So it's a serious risk. Yeah. It's not a joke.

It is not a metaverse story. This is real. It's scary. This is not a metaverse. Metaverse, you know. Alternative reality. People are telling that it is, for me,

it is not about what will be the opportunity size. It is happening now, now. The train has arrived. Yeah. And it is changing the life. The future is here. Correct.

So small, small things, you know, today, English issues can be solved because, you know, I used to struggle correcting the grammar and all. Some of my junior most employees they are, you know what they say.

Okay, this is what I have written. Change it as if it has been written by McKinsey and then new things come. Within seconds. Yeah. So what I'm trying to say is, yes, it is a risk. And on a very small capacity

and we'll need people like you to give a wake-up call to policymaker, decent maker, and also corporate, you know, we have to see how we can make it an opportunity for Indonesia. As I tell you, I'm a very optimistic person. When COVID was happening, when people were cutting down on KPEX, I increased $200 million more. So all these risks also comes with opportunity. So what is important is we act now. So one of the things which I am doing is I have created,

I'll like to invite you to come and visit our experience center. What I saw it in Silicon Valley, I saw it in Mountain View. I have created it in Jakarta. You know, in KPP, PTI, my office, which is like heart of the city. It's like bringing use cases, you know, we call it co-create, innovate. And I'm putting disproportionate focus on generative AI, you know. And we all, can I do it alone? At an I-o-H level, the answer is no.

I need to bring the right partner. I need to see what I am protecting. on the value chain, what I need to do in-house, what I need to do with partner. But the bigger risk is more how do we turn it into opportunity. Indonesia has that. And you are right. You know, I follow two of the things that are happening in India also. A lot of things are similar.

Let's make sure we turn the table. You know, it is our opportunity. But more than me, people like you, we need to get the. attention from all the decent maker, policymaker, how we can create those. You know, a lot of revolution have started from what you call it as tea, tea party or coffee community, you know, whether how Apple was made. You know, there was a small room where like-minded people used to get. But more action has to happen.

The observation that I'm making is that, you know, I'm vested in increasing the marginal productivity of Indonesia. As it is, it stacks up at about $24,000 on a per capita per year basis in terms of goods and services, right? And it doesn't stack up well with the likes of Singapore, which is at about $200,000. The more sophisticated economies, I think they're going to be better and bigger beneficiaries because they're already at a higher level. So how do we figure out ways to elevate this $24,000 worth of marginal productivity by way of you're being an enabler or a creator of this new train, right? And it's empirical in that AI has already been helping and increasing productivity

by orders of magnitude. And the cost of training AI has also dwindled 50 to 60% per year. So the exponentiality of the delta and efficiency, we need to capture this nationwide. That's the first observation. The second observation is that I think we need to figure out a way entrepreneurally nationwide. That they've got to be able to not only survive but thrive despite the government, not because of the government. that that mentality of depending on the government, I think somewhat dilutes the entrepreneurial value proposition, right? What do you think of these two points?

No, this is music to my ear and this is where I request people like you, you know, we'll play our part, but we need to get serious. We need to act. You know, time is running out. We need to. We need to act and this is an opportunity. And if not done, this will become a risk. So I completely agree to what you said just now. How do you see yourself and your organization being helpful in preparing the soft infrastructure? This goes back to the earlier point of education, right?

I mean, what are some of the observations that you can share with us in terms of whether we're ready and to the extent we're not ready? What are some of the things that we have to do in the next five years, you know, as a nation to get ready for this train that's coming fast? I think one is the digital skill set. Right. You know, there's a, for whatever it is now, there's a shortage of close to 10 million. And, you know, this is beyond language, coding and all. So how we can learn from each other. You know, I see a great opportunity on some of these things between India and Indonesia.

India has created a platform called ONDC. It's a government platform. And one of the vertical is skill literacy. And it is all, I was talking to someone who is behind it and I was telling how I can bring it. And then I was talking about constraint, BASA versus English. You know, he said, Vikram, this is no language. This is coding. They don't need Baja.

So this is, you are absolutely right. So again, whether it is from China, India or from wherever, we need to scale up fast. Yeah. Because at the end of the day, the power here is people. Yeah. It's revolving around people. Either people can feel left out or they can start enjoying. Still, it will need brain.

You know, this, this algorithm doesn't understand number. So you need people to get it right. Yeah. So it is not that it is replacing people. How you, so this is one big piece, Gita, and it goes back to what you do to bridge and what you start doing fundamentally right. And I think the government is doing the Dime himself, you know, with such on, you know, bringing things at a school education, colleges education and all. How we can have many more engineering colleges, you know. Yeah.

So I think there's a short term. versus long-term work, which is needed. The other piece is, as you rightly said, instead of only depending on government and all, how private sector, corporates need to come together and start putting good examples. It's very infectious, you know. We have seen the era of valuation game is over.

So now we need to get to, when it comes to startup also, start focusing on real business, you know and then start looking at I I when it comes to doing business I am a bit old school of thought whatever we do we have to make sure when we are getting a beta positive if you're not making money it's not a charity game you know if you're not sustainable yourself how can you help anyone else so so I think there was a bit of a wave I'm happy that you know that has come to it's a well-needed wake-up call it was right

on the wall, you know, from series A to series B to series C, I think the startup mindset, the entrepreneurial mindset also need to come with a zero to one game, do something, do the first shop, right? I really like people like Pai A, BCA, you know, I learn whenever I play golf with him, I learn from him. Every branch of Bank the Open, they make it profitable. Yeah. So there's something we have to learn.

It's concrete. We have to learn. It's real. It's not that, you know. It's not just a story, right? But it's real. Yes. That mindset of doing real business,

but you need that startup. It's okay to fail. I'm again saying, but it's not okay to fail just because you are driving a valuation game. Yeah. Not okay to waste those money. I want to ask you a general question on,

on AI. Since you brought it up, I'm in a camp that sort of is a bit dystopian in a sense that, you know, AI is sort of this hallucination, right, that's been driven by the hypnosis. And I happen to spend time in Silicon Valley, and I see these technologists just pushing the train forward without roping in other experts of different dimensions

intuitively, I just sense that at the rate that this is not being pushed forward in a multidisciplinary manner, there's that risk of this becoming somewhat malign and at the end of which will come this disease that could be malignant for humanity. And from a regulatory standpoint, I see countries or governments taking different views, right? Some would just open the whole kimono. Some would be a bit more reserved because they need to weigh in on what's good, what's bad,

and whether it's net good, net bad. And some don't even know how to respond. to this train coming, right? Is that the right way of thinking about AI? I mean, the temptation is to think that it's going to be net positive, right, for humanity. But I don't know. I just feel that there's this risk. It may not go in the right direction.

You are bang on. You are absolutely right. You know, with my limited knowledge and exposure, I have been in a discussion with Howard Prof. some of the best mind, you know, this was three months back and this was the question. I have been in discussions with some of the people who are really, you know, around it. So first, you are absolutely right. You know, this need to be regulated and there has to be a more cohesive cooperative.

How do you use AI for bigger good of humanity? Right. There's a clear risk. one risk I'll tell you which I experienced and I was like that. So my my basa is Siddiquid, Siddiquet, you know, I'm learning. I need to be much better. Good enough. So today, today, you know, we have a startup company partner.

They came and they told me to keep reading the script and with my video in English. So I kept reading. After 48 hours, they don't even need to talk to me. They are punching whatever they want me to say in Bhasa. and then they play my video. I can't recognize my own voice. It is like Vikram talking Basa as fluent as possible. And with my, you know...

I can even make you look like Elon Musk. But, you know, if my wife here, somebody, he will know it is Vikram. It is so, so close to real. And I am talking in Basa. It was a fun thing that, you know, you have not improved. Now you will make AI speak Bhaasa for you. And it was real. And they just took 15 minutes of my script.

and they converted. And they don't even have to talk to me. They will type whatever Bha they want. And then that fits into my voice. First thing I did, I called them. I said, sign the contract. You can't use my voice without my consent. So there is so much of risk around disinformation, fake news and all.

It's scary. It's really scary. So first thing, first, there has to be a larger consensus on all these forces who are behind. it, that it has to be for the good. But please understand, this is not a real fair world, you know. There will be forces who will be working and there will be unit economics to support all these things which we are worried about.

So then comes how it has to be regulated. So these two things, personally, I'm a very optimistic guy. I see a lot of work happening. You know, on legal folks also, you know, to regulate this, what are the. laws, how it has to happen. It's like a different... It's a blood box. Correct.

So two things, again, I'm saying this with my limited knowledge. One, it has to be dealt for the larger good of humanity. It is transformative. Second, whether we like it or we don't like it, when this whole, there is so much of, you know, fraud happening around OTT. OTP, fake news, it will multiply. So just do 20x more. So how are we putting the regulation country after country?

How there's a bigger consensus on making sure that the regulation support the greater good? While it supports innovation, it supports, you know, all these things. So these are the two things. I'm very optimistic in coming months. We will see a lot of work happening. I just think that people of culture, economic, spirituality, philosophy, they need to be roped in, at least conversationally. Yes. For purposes of coming up with this frame, right, of rules and regulations, environment, all the other dimensions.

I mean, better yet, in a discourse, right? and to the extent that they're not roped in, we might just miss out on something that's going to cost some one to just slip. No, you are absolutely right, you know, because the impact is so wide. Yeah. You need to get people from all sector,

all section, all community, when you frame up this regulation so that none of these are left out. I'm so happy that you are calling it out. I'm completely with you. Because, you know, having known so many technologists, they think they're the smartest people, which arguably could be,

but they may not be the wisest, right? I think wisdom, I think, needs to be infused in the conversation. Fikkim, any other messages you want to share to the young audience in Indonesia? First of all, you know, as I said when we started, it's an absolute honor. I learned a few things. Right away. And I want, especially, you know, Indonesia biggest asset is its people, the young talent, the average age. I keep telling my employee that we need to have bigger aspiration. We need to think big because Indonesia deserve much more. So let's work with this philosophy of Gotong Riyong, how we can all come together, how we can solve some of these challenges which we are facing. And at the same time, how we enjoy the journey in a manner, which is, very, very close to Indonesia and the culture.

I want to go back to the earlier point of teaching somebody to speak an international language. I've seen with my own eyes how being able to speak an international language completely transforms an individual. And what I mean by that is all of a sudden this person can imagine. And I think you can play a very big role by way of facilitating whatever platform you have in mind so that you can make millions of people in Indonesia. Imagine a little bit better. I will do my utmost. This is my home, you know, whatever I am today. I owe a lot to Indonesia and I'm a believer of karma.

So I call it as my karmh Bhoomi. So for me, this is my motherland. And I will need guidance from leaders like you. And we are fully committed, you know, because I'm enjoying it. Yeah, I'm like, this gives me happiness. Yeah. Thank you so much for gracing this. Thank you.

Thank you. and, that's Vikram Sinha Pimpinan from Indosat Orido Hutchison Thank you

Thank you This is NG