Endgame with Gita Wirjawan - Vincent Iswara: Talent, Trust and Technology Equals True Potential

Episode Date: March 23, 2022

CEO sekaligus Co-founder DANA, Vincent Iswara bicara mimpi Indonesia mencapai potensi maksimalnya dengan menanamkan nilai-nilai meritokrasi dan transparansi baik di lingkungan kerja yang dipimpinnya, maupun layanan keuangan digital yang dikembangkannya. #Endgame #GitaWirjawan #VincentIswara Saksikan dalam versi video: https://endgame.id/dana Pre-Order merchandise resmi Endgame: https://wa.me/6282133365263 Info pendaftaran program Master of Public Policy di SGPP Indonesia: admissions.sgpp.ac.id [e-mail] https://wa.me/628111522504

So if that's the case, why not just let it easy for everyone to raise globally? Not to prevent global investment to come. The key is how to make sure when they started to come in, how do you make sure that they come in for investment purposes only not to control certain things that is valuable to Indonesia? This is endgame. Hello, friends. I've been

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that in description. Now back to the show. Hello, time, today we're getting

Vince Iswara, CEO of Dana. Vince, thank you, can come to our our time. Happy to be here, sir. Very honored.

Okay. We're, we usually know-broll panjang, but at all the time, it, about the

small, narasumber. Tell, you're, you're living in Jakarta, then, then,

then, school, to be out of country, and then can't get to get to

do that, How about? So, please. Okay, so I'm, so I'm from, so I'm from Jakarta. My parents, it's, two-doin-lawed, the family's long in Indonesia. So my father, it's from Malang. My mom, it's from Madhune. That's great story.

That's really, I love hearing the story. Because my father, it's my mom, go to Jakarta, that, it was, it was through a car-apy? Ketemned, or? No, it's before it's been before, it's been, from the kids,

it's been, to be made in my father, by the other my mom. And then, they started since they were very young. They got married there. And then, they're really,

work, venture, right, to, they're to, I don't know if I should tell this story to my, oh, well, it's okay, it's long time ago. long time ago. So my father goes to Jakarta without paying. Oh, yeah.

All forgiven. And how he did it without paying, he presented his journalist card, fake journalist card, saying, I'm a journalist. Oh, okay, not a water on, okay. Yeah. And then I have a news story that I need to go to Jakarta, then he goes to Jakarta, then he started from that. So they're really, really,

I'm really, the family entrepreneur from the very beginning. And my mom and my dad started together. So they've been partner their whole life. Businesses of what? They still do. They do a trading company. Trading company brought in machines from Germany, from Japan, from other areas in the world, into factories in Indonesia.

Okay. Okay. So, still. Wow. Okay. Then, where, in Jakarta? I forgot the rest. I have in my mind the pictures,

there, there's, like, still, like, like, like, like, cos-cos-and, like, just, hospital, and I was a very, very little baby. They thought it was petite, baby. But, now, I'm taller than my parents. And yeah, it's a...

School at the... I would say I have a very lovely childhood. Very good. My parents are great. They're akur. I remember, my first trip ever when I was young, it was to Dano Tobah. There's a photo one-one.

And just a stiket, just, just... Just... ...tick it, jump to the future. And I went back to Tobah just last year. last year, again. It's been a lot of much. Oh, infrastructure. It's more good.

It's good. But, but it's really good. It's really. I was good. It's so nice. It's so nice. It's like Genieve Le Como. Yes.

Yeah, right. Yeah, right. Yeah, bettal. Yeah, it's a lot of, what, yeah, activities and community. Good, good, I'm good, I'm going to, I'm going to stay

day in diary, experience, that we're at the son-as-no, it's a little fast forward, and then story more more than more, like, to, how empowering local UMKM, so I go to digital, so. So I go to areas of Donooba, see them like how much, problem they're like what, and so many things that, oh my God, so many potentials in Indonesia, it's.

Okay, let's go back to the stories. So when I was, uh, it was, uh, I had a very, uh, lovely childhood. I have two younger sisters. They're a bit far apart from me. So my second sister is five years apart. And my third sister is, well, sorry, my first sister is five years apart. My second sister is six years apart. So we had a pretty good age gap. When we were younger, we fought a lot. Yes, I got into. My sister was very smart. Very smart. I mean, you know, all of you have brother and sister, or you have children, tell your children to do this. In other, I love to read. I love reading. Right. Since I was little, I don't know what I said.

Terus, in order for us to be akur, what my sister did, she actually bought books, but bought manga comic books for me. You know, giving me, keep giving me books to read. And then we become so peaceful because We got the same interest, and then we can't even be able to be together, we can share it, I buy books for hers, he bought book for me. So that was funny. You know what about?

Fixie or? Non-fixie. I love reading. I don't... What just? What's just? So, you know, there's always a question. Which one is my favorite book or you?

I don't have any. I love reading. And from any genre. Okay. I love fictions. I love non-viction. I love documentary, I love historical, I love business books, I love what I'm a futuristic concept.

I love books, I love reading since I was small. I also, I've got to be back, but if you're just preferensiness, what, more non-fiction, than fictions. I don't know how, it's like, more kind of, because, yeah, it's even, yeah, it's even, yeah,

but more, I don't know, it's more, I don't know, more, that's good, if you can be able to do-two in equal proportions. I love story. I love story that resonate. That's more important. Because it doesn't matter for me,

fiction or non-viction as long as it resonates. That for me, then it becomes a beautiful piece. Then, S.D, SMP, SMA, where? D, because we, because we, we live in the Uttara Ploid, so S.D, SMP, I was in Tarakana, and I'm from, SMAC 1.

It's at the time still school that's the most intense. Why, it's just the one of the one of the school, SMA or whatever, or whatever, yeah, that's that's when we're at 7-pagy, it's all right,

then, then we get, we're all right, but, Saturday, the day, the day of our day. It's 7 to 17 to 12, so the 1st, so the 1st, sogary normal, by the other than the other,

that, we just like, we're less again, because the kids are competitive, so. So, the 7-pagy, so, and 7-m. academics too.

Yeah. It's very intense. But I feel grateful, because it's, too, people are people who, like what, yeah. Yeah.

That's what, what, what, world silver Olympic medallists of mathematics. That's in the time, there's also

national physics champion. That's, that, all the people, right, who, who, who was the winner? But yeah, amazing, that hebat, many of scholars,

there's also that many who are very accomplished professionals. Dural, he had been the CEO of the Capital Indonesia, and then again, also, one of the partners in Ascentures. So, yeah, very accomplished, because they're all. Well, good. Over there, I'm standard. I won't say that I'm top of the class. But I was one thing that I a bit regretted in also a bit, you know, in my academics when I was younger, just a bit regretted.

And I wish I could have learned it sooner, which I learned later on in life. Put more time studying. In terms of it is this, I process things pretty fast. So, because of that, I took it for granted. So I study usually a day before, or a few hours before, a lot of times. Cuma, because I don't know what's the reason. It's, for me, academics is just about achieving great, right? The reason is just get a good grade.

So then what, that? So then what, good grade, yes, Yes, it's going to ranking, you can be pride to your friends and families. But at the end of the day, the sense of purpose is still a little bit resonant with me. So for me, as long as I can get good enough, that's good enough for me. So for me, good enough, meaning that then I just need to study like a day before. That's a bit regret.

Later on in life, then I got to learn with what I studied actually matters. is that it can actually be used for something. That's not sadar, that's just, oh, okay, I can put my full dedication to it. But there also, there's also, that we're doing, or we're learning, it's not relevant, with era that's very digital, right?

Yes, this, this, This, maybe the point of their is, is, is the system of the curriculum to have been changed? Completely understand your point. And sometimes, when I look back, like in Indonesia, that's, there was around 12-mata-plagerness, for the SMA, yeah?

Yeah. It's sense, not? Because, I don't think anyone can be good at 12 good things, 12 subject matters. I don't think anyone can be very good at 12 subject matters. It's too much. And then, in the matter of one, you have to be good at the majority of them, right?

Because, what like this mark one? You have to be very good at all of them. Because competition is very crazy. And then, if you've used this 12 subject matters? So, that's more on you should you specialize? If you're now, now, specialization matters,

if generalized, yeah, you can good, but I think you're going to be stuck somewhere, because somebody else is going to be specialized on certain things. Now, if I was in, if I'm trying to do good in everything, then what you learn is you're trying to do good because of the process. So you're trying to be good at the process. you're not trying to be good at something that resonate. Now, that I realized, too, after so long, that's because if I'm good at the process,

I'm probably not going to be entrepreneur. I'm probably going into some large corporations and be effective in making sure the corporations run as well. But because I'm much more passionate, when I do things, I have to be passionate about it. If I'm not passionate about it and I don't keep myself fully, then that's why I realize I'm an entrepreneur. Because when I'm passionate about it, it's really, everything I put into it.

End to end. From the moment I wake up until I sleep, until every day, if there's a time, I think about it all the time. So, no, because of that, I do think that I have the ability to get ahead. That's it. college to Pennsylvania. So, yes. After I graduated high school, at the time, in my mind, back again, I'm not too much,

not too much about the world, I always think, I want to be engineer. Why? I don't know. I just want to be engineer. Dullo, if I was, I want to be engineer. Salsh, that, that's from where I'm not even like I think of engineer. Doctor or engineer. Doctor or engineer?

Yeah, right, when we're in a little, Yeah, when little, can't always like, doctor or engineer. But, no matter what, or one other, or another, another, another, astronaut. But the third is very far-fetched, yeah. So, so, between doctors,

insinior, or that astronaut, I I picked an senior. And so, so I graduated from high school, before graduated, I have a choice of school, like, in Indonesia, or two countries, I decided that I want to be engineers.

Then we see we're going to get there's a because parents, they're doing pretty well, so they can afford to send me to overseas, so I want to try going to overseas. And why, to US, that's also. I think all of us, when we were small, we always really, really, really, it's a line of opportunity,

US is a line of freedom, and then, that was the time Ronald Reagan, everything is so the E-TIS, yeah. It's a very, very strong and US-world-centric kind of mindset, so I want to try to be there, and then I decided that I want to go to a good engineering school. And then, once again, blessed and also at the same time I feel a bit stupid. I only apply to one school and I get accepted.

And at the time, it's a top 25 school of engineering in U.S. It's called Lehigh University. Yeah. The place Lee Ayacocca. Lee Ayacocca. Chrysler. And at the time he was legendary as well. And how he built Chrysler.

Yeah. So then I applied to that school and I got accepted and that's it. And that's it, that's it. And then, um, and then, um, past, I was, I was, because I, because I,

because I can school in one of, I took a lot of, we all get educated a lot with the math and, I also, I know, what I'm, what I know, physics, department physics, and, because I'm, there's, I'm, BIO, or social, that, I took the, physics, and because I learned so much about math and physics,

I took a placement test, when I was at school. I shouldn't. Because otherwise I can padded my grade better, easy A. So I took physics, I took calculus one, and calculus two, and I passed all of them. And I was the only one in the whole damn school. The one of the other one? Because no one, there, because there,

so I'm here. I took this placement, I was the only one in whole room. Why, why the other one? I'm not, I think, because there's not there can't be able, okay, Trenata, everyone's easier to get an A, why don't you take it,

so, yeah, so I took it. But you save time, can? I save time. Cuma, then I realized, I realized, that the Sonno. When I came to class, I just got it, I know formulas, I don't know how to make them. This sonor, they're, they're doing

to be it's just to be it's the basic that, how do you get how to the formula that's how you use this formula? So if you divide in the question, that we can re-engineered, we can re-engineered, that we can make more formula from the time, I'm jago formula, because when in Indus, it's,

it's, there, there's 400 formula in your head, you know, with this, case in this, this is formula this, So, so they're jacognos, that's formula, that's, when they're just beingung. I got a not a good grade in the first year, because it's just to learn to move again.

Now, that's also started to realize, oh, the world is not as simple as that, and when you have to do something, it's better understand deep, deeply what you're really to do. That's true. That's true. And then, also, engineering.

I love, I'm doing the tech, because I love to be, I love technology. And for me, technology is something that help people life. I love it. And I also realized that I don't think I can make an impact if I am entirely at a lab, that's really, it's my honest opinion when I was at there, because I always look at my job in my job, I'm not really, the learning, all of the lab, like, I can do semiconductors, I can basically build logic,

logic, what do you know, semi-conductor, logic gate, for your transform, Z, transform or those, that's going to be the electricity current into digital bits, that's one and zero. I actually made a modem when I was the, that, at the time. I know how to program in assembly language. And I've talked about language, I know assembly language, I know assembly language.

Fertran, Pascal, C++, basic. The same. What's the other, is it? Easy. It's, I don't think it's going to be hard, because it comes from that foundation. But I did not learn Python. It's, that's much later on.

So when I realized that engineering, it's, you are working in this very close environment. Of course, among your peers and everything, and everything, they're very smart as well, right? So I don't see immediate impact to the people. Yeah. So I felt like that's not my calling. I felt like I want to be able in a place in a position where I can help people use technology.

Instead of just trying to develop something that Mungkin have impact, Mungkin have not. Because as a researcher, that's what you do, right? You try to do something, but it might have a long, you know, it might be very long, until it had impact, it might not even even go there. So I decided that at the time that I want to switch major. Because I realized that I'm a bit late too, I'm a bit late too, the time the third.

So I already basically, halfway or almost two-third of the way in terms of the engineering to graduate before I decided that I don't want to do it anymore. Because I felt like I was, that's not my true calling. So then I decided that I want to move. That's why then I moved to... But you backtrack a bit. You can be hardware and software.

Yes. Preferrensiness is the more than hardware? Software. Okay. Because hardware... Hardware is very... It's very specific, yeah. Let's put it that way.

So, so, it's actually not that complicated. And one zero. It's actually about how you're just about how you're just. you can make sure you can calculate the one zero faster. So, if you look at it, so all the improvement we have the last 20 years, is how to make sure that it can go to gigahertz can be faster and faster,

and then people can calculate faster. So then you can create a result. It's not that complicated, because material science it doesn't move as fast. And Lihyai at the time was one of the best material science unit in US, yeah, in terms of the school. I had looked at that time that was 1993, 94, that was there was fiber optic,

or there's, what, what, name, broadband fiber internet, that's all, that's all, that materialists. Cuma, they don't move fast, because material science is, it's a very ground to elements that on the earth, that. And then, if I see from there, it didn't move fast fast,

now I want to be in software, because the applications can move faster. More than more than humanity too. But back again, in your computer engineering, you are working on the platform and infrastructure's layer. Not on the what we call the business or a consumer interaction layer. Did it? Also slow. So then I decided that no, that's not where I want to be. I want to be impactful faster.

That's why I switched to business major. Pindahs to California? Pinded to California to Loyola University. I want to switch to a business major. At the time, back again, business, if we can look at a few angles, you want to be in business business. You can be in marketing, you can be in HR, you can be in a business development. I decided I want to be in finance. Why? Because that's closer to me. I'm good at math. I'm very logic and I came from an engineering background, so the closest to me is finance.

So that's why I choose the finance major. I graduated. And then if I graduated, I, that's U.S. Ken, the Loyola. I decided I want to continue into a master degree. And I choose to study in Japan. The Iwasa da. A few reasons as well. I actually got accepted as a accounting major master degree in USC. Because I took a G-MAT and I did pretty well. But I decided that I want to go to Japan because I felt like

if I already understand the Western way of thinking, I want to understand also the Eastern way of thinking. And for me, you know, if in order to be part of, you know, like doing business in Asia, which is what I want to do, right? I don't want to be just stuck in U.S., you know, continuing my career path there. But I know that I want to go back to Asia. I need to be able to have two. Balak and Timur.

Yeah, mindsets. Barat and Timur. So I choose Japan because at the time Japan was, you know, that was 90s, right? Japan is still at the top of the world in terms of the technology, in terms of business-wise. So that's why it took an opportunity to go to Waseda. Nambil? MBA, and specifically in a strategic management. Okay.

Why specifically strategic management? Well, I guess at the time, I still remember. consultants, consultants and investment banking was all the rates, right? Everybody wants to be in consultant, everybody wants to be in investment banking. So, and the way to get there is strategic management. Yeah, I was a time of a, I was a, I was a, not yet set on, you know, specifically, I have to do this, no matter what kind of mentality, more on what's in at that time. But I also feel fortunate, right? Because, you know, because of that I got to learn,

what's actually that all these consultants talk about, how they can be like such an important part of this, you know, like a such an important part of this, you know, business world. Yeah. But I also realized I, that's not my true calling as well. Yeah. So when I took my MBA, it happens that I took my MBA, it happens that I took my, a lot of credits early on during that time and I finished all my credit requirements to graduate very early the first year I finished everything first year wow as opposed to two years

okay yes it's a two years program but I finished a lot of the credits in the first year that also give me an indication that actually I'm not stupid I'm actually I have a brain But, it's validatization. In that part, yes. Genetically, I'm okay. I have the brain. But then I also realized I need passion in order for me to fulfill it, right? To fulfill my true potentials.

And that is when the time I actually realized, one, that I have the capability, two, that if I put something fully, that I can do things good. But this, Vince, if I see, if I've seen, after this people are technologies, in the world, like, that they're there, there are a concern

to recruit engineers. Mm-hmm. If in the 80s, 90s, that's, that's, the actual, that's, in the person, not use to be the name, like,

in Silicon Valley, they're, ag, ag, Now, the company is now, it's a majority of engineers. There's not, is there, is a new, because you background there engineering, that's making you more complied, can make up toaday.

Dibanding, if you're not background engineering, same-as-as-as-as-a-and-mobile, and then have reached the same point, as quickly? It's a very hard question now, is it the answer? Because I happen to have that career, that path. So for me, it's kind of given, yeah?

But I would say, knowing what I know now, it actually doesn't matter what your background is, as long as you're good at it. Because like, like, right, we're not necessarily only hiring people who has engineering background an engineering experience before. We're not necessarily hiring based on where you graduated. Yeah, I don't believe that either. Yeah. We care more about one, called engineers, when we test you on a specific area that you are applying for our

company and whether or not the result actually shows your capability. So by merit, right? If you're an engineer, if you're part of that, if you graduated from Venus, if you graduated from overseas, if you work in a very big company, it doesn't matter. We have to test your capability, so you join us by merit. That's one. If you're non-engineers, specifically we also did the same. We asked you, what is your background, for example, in terms of marketing? Have you had an experience with FMG?

Because why? Because we are a consumer business. And our consumer business, it reached a mass scale. So have you had experience with handling the, you know, a type of campaign that handled the masses? Are you, do you understand about brand? Do you understand about digital marketing? Depends, all right, specific areas, everything. Call America, good at that, regardless you have engineering background or not, we don't require

you to have it. So once again, it's more about focus and specialization. It's not about you need to have an engineering. For me, engineering is a skill. Not a, like a tech knowledge is a skill. It's not a part of your character. You can learn it. And at the end of the day, technology is tools.

Technology is not human element. It's it. I'm going to a bit, sorry, we're a little bit But there are some questions that have been from this. If we're banding it, the people think of the thinking of the Malcolm Gladwell, the 10,000 hours.

It's the inton specialization. I said that a lot in a company. Dibandingan, David Epstein, who's made-depantant late specialization. But, but to make specialization,

it's at the end or at the end, it justro, more than he's been being exposed with many-as-demeanor that's exposed

with many-as- that's-a-specialization that's done on the of you that you that's what you that's

that's in any that, that's the later-the-specializer. Because he more complete attributes-atribut as specialist. Or, you'd more than you'd more

you'd profile that 10,000 hours. From life until now, he's only acuntancy, or enelas, or programming. So, I think both ideas actually are just a method. just a method for me. At the end of the day, it's a method of how, what is the result of who you are. And when I talk to anyone, when I ask, even in a company, even in the town hall, right, I want to know whether or not you want to be better in these things compared to anyone else in what you want to do. I'm not saying the best.

Because best meaning you reach certain plateau or there is a threshold. And saying better. I want anyone in our company to be always better of their previous self of what they're trying to do. So if we're better, one of the method is to be better is keep doing what you're doing. 10 hours a day for 10 years. I said that a lot of the company. At the same time, in our company, really in our company, when you are a specialist in something,

we also tell you, try the other things. Why? Because I want you to start seeing the full scope of what we're trying to do. Because if you're good at one thing and then but you lock yourself in this narrow point of view and you don't understand what's going on in the other, you might be missing some things that the other find relevant. So for me, it's just a method.

It's how you get to that betterment of yourself, it's up to you. But if you don't do either, so even if you're at the end, but after that you don't put yourself 10 hours a day for the next, you know, whatever years it is, then somebody will overtake it. So both sides are just a method. And you can decide where you are at that point of time. Yeah.

I also think that if we're, if we're focused, but pindah to dimensioning that we focus there, whatever that we've got to have in this, it's been upwawasan, and it's been making up and And it's more intuiting. And, the intuition we,

and more intuisi we're, or more than we're more we're getting bitiguesa, and we can mitigate risk that's a long, even if we're tunnel vision just. If we're tunnel vision, we can mitigate risk, but that's the stifatting,

but that's the same time, be careful. And don't even if the focus is pinded Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's... Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's... So, if you've got to ...that's up to parker, non-kron, there.

Right, right. Yeah, right, but if it's juster-guesser, but if it's just to get to get to the other one other again. Yeah. And whatever learning you take from previously,

you can do it again. Right, I agree with you completely with that. Right. That one other, that's the one that's from, VINC, this, this,

this, Dulu, in the 80s, 90s, if we just we'd like to do you or that, right? Yeah. But, now, if we're looking young, including you, it's about to be entrepreneur,

all. Bidda, right? And, is, is, or not? I mean, if I see, intuitively, I think it's better, than before before. Because as much Indonesia to be entrepreneurial,

it's more than better than... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For me, once again, right, I think this follow-up to the, the methods, that focus specializations, or doing a lot of things at the end of it, they're becoming focused. So I think that's the same thing, too.

For me, it's also given, right? Because after my MBA, even before I finished that, my MBA, I already started my company. So I already started on the entrepreneur path, I think way ahead. And I will never take it back. And there is absolutely no regret. And for me, I think that's the best decision that I ever made.

And I love it. And then that's me. That's resonate with me as well. But along the way, I also feel like this. I wish I could have learned from organizational structures, how to build scalable business, how to scale your team, how to create a culture early on,

how to make sure that everybody in your companies is actually able to work in the same path together. Because when you're entrepreneur, especially early on if you started early on, If you started early, you tend to want to micromanage a lot of things. That's the biggest flaw of entrepreneur. It's like, I want to, you know, I don't trust you enough, okay, I'll do it. I don't trust you enough, I'll do it, you know, and I'll do it.

You know, okay, I'll do everything myself. Then you cannot grow, right? Then you get stuck, you know. Then when you started to delegate a bit more, a bit more, then just, wait, I'm different than you, I delegate when you, my thinking is left, your thinking is right, and it doesn't go along, you know. Those are the kind of a lot of the skills that a more established organization, that's, you've, you've, and I wish at the time I can learn that,

so then I can build from very early on a scalable business that can be very, very long, sustainable, long-lasting business. Well, I did it anyway, because I did a lot of trial and error. This is like my sixth or seventh company. And I did a lot of learning. Talk about some of the less than successful ventures you went into. Because, if I'm in terms, for meurred for people, to look, for people who, if you're looking at,

people who's success, they think he's success still, you know? Yeah, right? Usually, success, or successan, to, the, end up to gagalant. Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot of a learning curve.

So, a lot of things, yeah. So, if we talked, you know, right, even before I graduated. Wonderful ideas. Yeah, it's wonderful ideas. At the time, it was very revolutionary. I got a lot of BCGs and McKenzie Consultant

come to our, you know, come to our office and say, wow, what are you doing? It's, you know, it's very, very interesting and it's not even being done yet in the Western world. Okay, that's a bit of a story, right? When I started, I have a, once again, I'm very passionate about technology. I want to share my passion of technology to the society. And when I studied in US, I was at the time when the first internet boom, it happened, right? It was the Natscape era, the first version of Yahoo era.

I don't know if anybody of you ever heard of Natscape. Yeah, yeah. We went through that. Yep, EOL. Oh my gosh. That was very early. So I went through at the very beginning, you know. It's like, oh, this is so interesting, you know.

And really want to share the people as much as possible, you know. But then, then I was still there. And then when I moved to Japan, he was the first broadband band era. It's like, I don't know if you remember, if you used modem, you heard the, you know, all this sound. Right? Those kind of sound. And I made that during my engineering time. Wow. And it was very slow. Then, if you're in Japan, this is what broadband means. We can start video sharing. You can start everything that can be animated. Everything is so fast. And all the things that you need to search in the

can take hours, for a few subjects, now within minutes. Sometimes seconds is done. So I want to share that. So that's why my first business, we created this technology company, technology center, we call it technology center, that actually open for everyone to come to use per daily basis, per hour basis, per weekly, per monthly basis.

And then we have broadband internet, we have a broadband internet, We have a lot of a desk and meeting rooms and terminals. So people can use it, people can work there, people can have meetings there, people can work remotely there. Sounds eerily familiar. Exactly, right. And every week we have an event by technology companies to share their product, to share their new launches, you know, Intel, Microsoft, CBN at the time, chip,

Mazzal Chip, Adobe, Autodesk, they all do that regularly in our office. And this is a facility of what currently we call co-working space. Terlu visionary. 2001. So, I learned a very hard lesson at the time. You might be ahead.

you might have great ideas. But if the market does not accept it yet, then whatever good ideas you have might not work. Most likely will not work. So you have to understand the market needs. The market needs and what you want to do. That's my first lesson. But I feel grateful as well with that,

because after that, we have a lot of contact with the technology companies. We have a lot of the revolutions building right from there. So I got a chance to work with some of them and incubated few companies. There is a company that we're doing a broadband providers, internet broadband providers for buildings, for enterprises. So at the time, if you stayed in Hotel Mulya, Hotel Darmawansa, Mandarin, El Meridian, I was provided by my company.

All the internet. Well done. Yes. And happy customers. They've been with our company for a very long time, right? They've been with our company for a very long time. And in some businesses, they used to us as well. So it was a pretty successful business.

I managed to sell it to other companies. And I consider it a successful exit. There's another company that started because of that incubation of the true collaborations with the Autodesk and at the time a Maya 3D application program. So we created a computer graphic animation studio. That was also very early. That was 2002, guys.

But we work a lot with our architectural company. So a lot of the buildings develop in Jakarta actually, their visualizations, their marketing materials and promotions is actually done by our companies as well. And yeah, and that company turns into one of the first digital marketing company in Indonesia. Hello, my friends, thank you, thank you, thank you for the new from Future Narrator's Merchandise Collection

and to do-cung to us mission to find ideas of the good from narrator, narator, karen, and the link the masonan are in description, now back to the show. For, for the kids who want to make startup, what they're going to do. What they're going to do?

They're not too visioner. Or, maybe there's a wrong to be too visionaire. What's the moral of the story here? Because of the other you're doing, it's too visionary, right? Not in the supply and demand, yeah, can? because the jembatan's not there.

But, but not be it, not that's not too visioner, right? Inting not that's not. Visi is important, right? But, but visi is, if it's, if it's, if it's, if it's, make more...

Yeah. ...taxem. Yeah, right? Yeah, and, it's... ...the, it's the most important. For me, the learning from that is, When you have vision, sometimes you get to also become too narrow because you look at certain successful cases from other countries.

We can see America, we can see China, we can be in Japan. When I first thought in Japan, that's, oh, broadband internet available for all consumers. At a time, when you all, when you all, 256 kilobits per second, and in Japan, in Japan, it's 10 megabit. It's, wow, multiple times, that's, and then, Wow, this is, this is here, this, all of people must want to use, okay, then we're doing it

in technology center, we're doing with telecom, one megabit, know how about how the price it per-bun? 40-jute. Sose, not be it's not. Yeah, how much, try. So, that, that, so, we have to see, we have to

see, we have to know, sometimes the vision, sometimes the case study that happens somewhere else, That we have to see the reality application. Is it the market now, one? They're not? They're going to be. Okay, if market is,

they're still, okay, fine. Infrastructures are ready, well? Regulations are ready, well? That's also, that we have to bea-the-readiness

of us adoption, that's, that's already we'll get, we can address the customer needs. Now, for people, you know, entrepreneurs, like, address the market needs,

aggressive the infrastructures, if it's all that's all that we can't, then we can't, we can't, we can't see, who's the other, the example, here, the market is not even there yet.

The market's not even, even, even, not, even, not, not, even, not, not, even, so, so, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, okay, okay, then they're,

they're, okay, okay, then they're, because they're not their needs yet. It's cool. They love it, but it's not their daily needs yet. So the pain points not even there yet. So don't even there yet. So don't even if it's success in the other

it's necessary success here. It's always there. Is the people pain points that is the people want to actually go there? If there's had pain points and you understand that you have the ability to address that pain points, And the infrastructure is ready, let's do it.

Or close to it, let's prepare for it. Yeah, that's important, see. That's important, you know, you've got to be able to do not. Now, we're going to go about with the data, yeah, right? If I'm seeing, you're talking about

the, think, principle, with a lot, two, it's related to the of the three,

it's about talenta. Gavrolete about each myself. I always believe, and this is through a lot of learning that I had

in my previous startup and ventures together and also back again my deep passion in what, why am I doing, what I'm doing, I always believe in giving people opportunity to fulfill their highest potential.

And that's always been, at the end of the day, that's my true passion. Yeah. And how I can fulfill my full potentials. And after that, how I can help others, you do, my team, the people that I work with to reach their full potentials. And then now it reaches out as well, how we can help our society. to help fulfill their highest potential. So one, in order for us to fulfill potentials,

then we need to also start to make sure they trust us. And when we start about first thing is our team, how can the team trust us? That's important so. If you know, when you don't trust, then you're not going to give you all. Then your potential might not be seen. So transparency is one of the

one of the most of the person. Because with transparency, there's not going to be bureaucracy, there's not going to be politics, there's not going to be something that's not going to be something that's not, not like, ah, no, not it's about that, right? It's about, hey, we all here together because we believe in the same dream, want to achieve something, let's give it our all.

So transparency is very important. And because of transparency, the trust can be built." Yeah, the it's always, now, it's already there. And it's something that has to, once again, right, it's a, I love to use this word, to resonate with everyone.

So one of our culture, most important culture, is integrity. And when you said integrity is integrity on all level, right? And because with integrity internally, that means we can give integrity externally. Sure. Then everybody not only can trust us because we're doing the right way and the team trust each other because we know we're doing the same thing together at the end of the day and

the result of it is that the society will benefit for it. So that's why it's such an important word. So because we've got, that's why all of us can work together to achieve the vision faster and better. That's why the high potential for me it's all about. Right. Okay. Okay. And then, this, can, have been,

have been – – – close to it, yes. Yeah, right. Yeah, right. Yeah, and 90-skian,

can. Yes. To be up to any to do it, I'm going to digital payment in Indonesia,

this is still small Yeah. Yeah, right. I always look at the Hongk, where digital payment, it's more than two-kali economy. Economimia only $13 trillion. Yeah.

So, two-kali, it's $26 trillion. Yep. Indonesia, this is below 10% of economy. Yep. Naik two-kali just, from economy, it's already 20-kali. Yeah, right? If you're also, if economy in five-time, it's like two or three times,

we're talking about multiples of 40 to 60. Yep. So, it's it in the number of what you're saying, it's what you're saying about what you're saying, Mb, don't too competitive. Mbuk, if we can, we can, we can, we can't, try, yeah, tell,

the same-smanget-smart that. Okay. This is one of the thing that, that, you know, For me, important enough also in terms of our strategy and everything, right? The important, that's actually, we are still in the very early stage. That's what all of the people you can see might be already so big, there potentially, there's one coming up for IPOs as well, right? And that can be one of the most valuable companies in Indonesia.

If you take a look into the bigger scope of things, we're still in the very early stage. And when we're still at the very early stage, the most important job all of us can do is to educate the market. If we're going to educate together, that means the adoption is going to be faster. I truly believe that right now it's not what we call it competition. It's really what we call it competition or collaborations. Because our job, all of our job, is to grow a market share so that the whole society can adopt faster. And when we have more, what you call it, people call it competitions, I actually believe that

we actually have a collaborator in educating the market together. And once the market become digital native, right? It comes money, it's very provisioned in use, you know, all these digital tools in daily life. When more than 60% of the population started to reach that maturity, adoptions, then then you can call it competitions. But we way too early for that. Necess. Tragal premature. Yeah.

It might still take about three to five years to achieve that. And Indonesia is the fact. the fastest actually is already in Southeast Asia in terms of digital payment adoptions. If you take a look, we're actually already either on part or overtaking Singapore. We're better than any other countries around the regions. In terms of adoption velocity, we're actually also faster than India. And China is just because they're already up there, right? The majority of the population is already using these digital payments.

But Indonesia is actually going to be the fastest in the region. So if we're all believe that, so really it's not time to talk about how to each other market share. It's all about to grow the market together. Do you compare and contrast amongst China, India, and Indonesia? Adoption is different, each, which is it that we're so much lagging, in the banking in the context of adoption. And India, not just, not just-cepe-cepe-cepeat, too, like,

not just, yeah. I think it has to do, because, you know, well, China started earlier, right? Because China is, well, they're a very close country, where, you know, all the homegrown technology are managed to actually compete, or, you know, like, compete or collaborative at each other, until they become such a big, big group,

or tech companies that can impact social, you know, so they have a big very social impact and you have big society impacts. But Indonesia, one, is the difference because Indonesia is also in a very open market, right? And so basically there is a lot of technology players globally that can actually do their business in Indonesia. So one, sometimes, you know, early on and learn before the current stage of all the, you know, very successful technology companies, right? We tend as a consumer to be, well, let's just, you know, let's just use the product

is done by all of these, you know, foreign players, right? We get our social media, for example, right? I mean, why do we need to start our own? We can always use them because they already so big. Our, you know, like at the time gaming, social media, business applications. Why do we have to do it ourselves because somebody else already do it better. Okay? We tend as a consumers to get, it's like, oh, okay, we don't trust our own yet.

That's why we used the offshore platforms. Then we go into this, what we call this, technology shift, you know, in terms of e-commerce, in terms of digital financial services, in terms of, well, in the future is coming up, the crypto tokens, right? And then we started to see it's like, hey, you know what? The platforms that we seen from overseas, the platform that works over there, might not address the needs of Indonesia. For example, right, Indonesia has so much OMQAIMEs. Indonesia is very big in very, a lot of small, small businesses that caters to very specific side of people. For example, Indonesia has 67 million SMEs.

India doesn't have even the ratio of the populations and the SMEs, it's less than Indonesia. And I think India found out mistaken it's less than 50 million, something like that. So then the nature is starting to different. So then when people trying to adopt, and I remember last time, right, eBay trying to open their business in Indonesia, other businesses, you know, buy.com or many others trying to Indonesia. It didn't work. Not yambung. Not yambung.

So then people started to realize, like, me, maybe if the needs is different, then we should start our own. Right. So then when it started, you know, like the e-commerce companies, the marketplace company started to open and they become, you know,

big over time pretty fast. It's like over the past 10, 11 years, right? So they become very successful. Then people started to realize, hey, we can do it. We can do it. We can do it our own. So then why not?

we just started with the other areas, then started the digital payments. And then also we realized that it's a very, very country-specific, very localized specifics. So then we are also trying to do it our own. So that's the thing, right? So that's the difference. We actually come in late, later than China. But if you take a look into when we started and the adoptions, we actually even faster than China. In terms of adoption change of when we started.

And China started a long time ago because they're closed. And we're started later because we're spoiled by the others. And India is in between. India is between China and us. So they started earlier than us. But then also have open to everyone. But at the same time, the government also started to limit who can enter and not. That's why they've been a bit slower than us.

But as one, the biggest change that I experienced recently is that the government started to actually support this initiative of digitalization. And that happens in the last five to six years, right? The government really started to see that this is important. I was at the Bank of Indonesia meeting a few days ago and one of the top three pillars of Indonesia next. important prioritization, one of them is digitalization. So the fact that the government is fully supportive, and really not supportive in just saying it, but really supportive in actions, the regulations, the dialogue, the support, the collaboration with the market industry that we're having right now, it's better than even most countries.

for them to them can to show them to be able to be it, yeah, right, right, or, or, innovation. So if I look, it's okay, to be fair, we're, we're from base that's a small, not only adoption rate this is a big,

I mean, one would expect, within logic, that this would decelerate. If I'm seeing there, there's a bitasance that's just structural. This is to be it as fast and as far as we can't evening literacy digital.

The second, how we can't how we can't hygiene digital. Yeah. Ketigua, if I'm inrottes it, I think, can't

be under money bredar. Yes. Yeah, right? Yes. If we'll just junker back like what, yeah, adoption is to be as fast as far as the money that there.

Yeah. But if the money is to be able to just so that's that just so-so-get-can, we're going to junker-balik 24-kali, yeah, just that's that. Yeah, can. Cough, let's go about literacy, hygiene, two-dueguit, and the other two-neged.

And the third, about the money breder. Okay. We start with literacy, right? I think in regards to literacy, so here's the thing, right? If we're talking about, digitally, is that I adopted by my most Indonesian. And this is a funny conversation that I had for the past few years. If people ask, hey, have you connected to Internet?

Or do you use data service? Most of the people say yes, but some of the people, you know, in older generations or some rural people said no. But if they're tantan, you've got to ask, you've got to Facebook, don't? Would it's been? Did it. Okay. Okay.

So, to be honest, you are already digital literate, right? You are already digital literate, but you are limited into certain categories only. That's what you feel is that's relevant to you for now. And if I ask, seriously, if I have Facebook, it's like, hey, how many Indonesia actually use your services? They're just a $200 million. Oh, okay. I mean, basically, that's almost everyone, right? Because the $50 million could be the very much, the 60 million can be the older generations or babies, right?

It's just very difficult. Okay, so then the majority of the population is actually a digital literate. But then how can be they are digital literate in the things that can impact their life and to be better, which is, for example, digital financial literacy? And that's still very low. We have a measurement, right? We have a survey that the digital financial literacy in Indonesia is actually between 25 and 50%, where the needs of financial inclusion is actually, well, 60 to 90%. Right? So there is a big gap in there. So then, well, basically that's all our job, right, in the market to make sure that the literacy is there.

So the fact that there is a gap, and the gap is we fill it. When we feel it in a really practical world, you know, we came-weller, we did, we did one, you know, when we did one, even, you know, we did one, even, a very big event called Jakarta Fair. It was very successful. And we're very aggressive, because we just started. And we want to tell to the people, hey guys, we're here. And with this digital service, you can benefit a lot.

So we give a very aggressive promotions. Anyone who entered the Jakata Fair, and if you buy using Dana, you get 50% cashback for your tickets. That's great, right? I mean, who wouldn't want it? we thought it's like, oh, at least, you know, like 50 or 60% of the population's that will definitely use us.

And why? Because we're just thinking because, well, the adoption of smartphone in Indonesia is about 40 to 50%. So maybe the 50% doesn't even have smartphone. So, it's just that. Yeah, it's not bad pa. We think it's just that it's just that. You know, at the time, the adoption was only 15%. Wow.

And we were like, wow, okay, why? So we actually, and that's, we feel it on the day one, day two, right? It was a whole month event. So I actually go down with my team and say, take a look at what's going on in the market. So we take a look. All of this generation X, sorry, generation of millennial and the generation Zid, they immediately, oh, okay, yeah, okay, install data on the spot. Yeah, yeah, installed, and then they're put,

they're back there, there's the back on the back on the back. And they're back there, they're going to, they're going to, we asked the, we asked the, this, they can, they've got, they've got 50-fusion cash-back, I'm going to go into the back, you can't buy, money, and minimum, so, it's, it's, it's, even, it's, even, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's not,

why, rippet. But, but, you know, that's, it's smart, it, it's, that, it's, it, it, it, it, it, it's, not, ribet. N'ampe, not get, so, how to come on the way,

how to talk about it. So, so. If a son, I'm not going to say that's what happens. The other than the parents, so that works, that's, but if you don't, no, no, it's not. So that's what, that's what, we realize, wow. So literacy, adoptions, it's not all about value propositions, but it takes time for people to get comfortable with it.

They have something, ribet, the two, ah, this is what, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not just about, they're bonging, data, I do not, data's di-a-uble, which is, in our case, impossible because we have a very high standard of data privacy. We actually don't even have access

to the customer data privacy, you know, data ourselves. We're a very, very high standard. So, because of this literacy, then there is an issue of the adoptions on certain things. But in terms of whether or not

they're digitally literate, they are already, are. You just have to make sure they understand. can now use it more than just this. Okay, second but hygiene. Hygiene. Okay. In regards to hygiene,

I always told my team and then I think they hear it trump me quite a lot. Data purpose is not to make you to be online, for something like this, sorry, people always measure by this. How many hours you spent online in your platform versus the others? So for example, if you are, there are, there's, if you are, there's a lot of data-data, it's about three-jum, if not wrong, online, yeah? Three-jum online in a day.

And if people, now, now, from the three-jum, we can take like 20, 30%, that means we're successful. In Dana, we said, we want you to use as little time as possible in Dana, because our intent is to make sure that when you use us, it can be as fast as possible. So the shortest time possible for you to complete a transaction or complete a financial needs, that's our metric.

So because of that, we're very specific in saying that we don't want to give you, sorry to say, you know, what we call it, content that makes ketakihat. Addictive content. No, we don't want that. We want is basically content that only relevant for your needs. Functional. For that purpose only. So there is no such thing is taking away your attention

so that you can stay in our platform as long as possible. That's not the intention. We don't want to clear all of that. That's why in terms of hygiene is very important for us to be clean. Very important for us to be integrity. That's most of all very important, right? So there is no such thing as driving, for example, gambling, pornography, or, you know, like very extreme contents, no.

Out of our service completely. Because first, one, integrity. And children can use our platform too. So we don't want to influence those children. So hygiene is very important for us. And application you also only more than 3mgabytes. We are one of the lowest.

very very low. Yeah, right? Yeah, right? It's important because if you want to achieve the scale, the mass, want to make sure that even the lowest spec of phones can adopt our applications. If you have 200 megabyte, 300 megabyte, it's many phones that's not enough. That's why it's very important for us.

And that's not going to inclusion of the money. Which is the third point, yeah, this is the third point, We can talk about inclusion of the money, but can subtle so much of the different from access to the doit, and access to the money that's enough. Talk about that. Okay.

So, I agree what you're saying, right? I mean, in Indonesia, I think the circulation of money is still lower than what it should be. And I think there's a lot of it related to the inefficiencies. For example, right now, I heard right, If I don't know, it was taken $3 trillion just for our Bank of Indonesia to distribute money all over cash, that's just, you know, new money distribute. When you talk about the circulation of the money, many of the many, many many, many, like,

you know, mass retailers, in order for them to receive money from their outlets, it takes two to five days. So it's very slow. Because of the velocity, the slow velocity of the movement of these transactions because of the settlement time, reconciliation time, collection times. So the circulation that is still inefficient, not small. This digital is one of the way, the best way, the only way actually, to accelerate that. Imagine now it comes in time when you get paid, when the merchant get paid,

you have to receive the money right then, right now. You can use it right then. You don't need to put your money into a bank again, and then you don't need the money in a bank account, for example, to... Sorry, you do need that in a digital way. I'm not saying it. But not physically.

You don't need to go to the band branches to store the money, and then you can use it later on to pay for your bills, to later on for pay your suppliers and everything to transfer your money out, if you don't go through the bank, you go through money... What do you transfer... Money transfer at Westall can have those kind of services, it can get into a bit pricey.

So then, one, the velocity, the acceleration is going to be there. Two, the cost associated with it. You know, a lot of people don't realize that. And this has been research globally, and we're going to work together with Universitas Indonesia to do research together for Indonesia, the cost of cash handling. Wow. There is an article, global insight. The cost of cash and link is between 5% to 15%. A lot of people don't realize that. A lot of people think money is actually cash is actually the most efficient. It's not. It's the worst. It's when you receive money, you know, in cash, there's so many that can go wrong with it that the cost associated with it is 5% to 15%. Okay, what can go wrong?

fake money, money broken, money stolen, reconciliation error, or there's a fishing now, there's basically penipuan. So there's a lot of it, there's a lot of it that can be associated into cash handling that people don't realize it before. So we're going to make a study about it, especially for Indonesian market, and see understanding in the real market how much is cash handling cost is. and with digital, it's practically zero. One, the cost is almost zero because it's so much efficient.

Two, and people still have a big misconception it is, it's actually more secure. It is more secure in the right way. Is it more secure? Third, it's actually one more thing. You have a transparency. It's faster for you to process it. So your business, you know, you know how long one business actually to reconfigure. every day just to make sure their accounting books and their invoices and their

prank funds is the same. It takes hours. With this, it's real time. Yeah. So... So... I, too-year-old-loughed in one of one cafe, that, I've got to do notar-in'-tunay.

I'm going to buyer. Yeah, right? Yeah, kind, he's aggah, like, then, and then, and then, he'd let him out of QR code, that, he's more more than to get to get a payment with QR code, I'd say, why?

Yeah, if I take a tunist, I have reconsiliation at the end of the day, so it's, it, that, it's, it's not. Now, this, if I look, this, maybe I'm going to get to level that more this,

what I'm going, unicorn, this, this, this, more, and I'm going to, right? And I, I think, if I'm notherty-dial,

hygiene digital, and then, we're really, to, making about solutions or resolution to, to,

that's, that's more, it's more no, no other to, to,

not, 100 unicorns in 5-10-10-to-de-depan. This, at the end of the year, there's a few-year. Now, I'm going to go about how we we must-kind of the people for the people. So, this, and,

this, is the other-for-usan-the-busan big, is it-bara from the data-dana from out, model from the world. How we can make sure we can democratization model, whether it's from outside or from from the realm, but what the most

important is, for the people, or the people are in the context of Dana, and what Dana is doing. Okay. It's a very important understanding, right? That entrepreneurship or startup is a very risky endeavor. Yeah.

Right. It's a sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. I think we discussed a lot about how it could it could go wrong. Yeah. In our conversation before, right? Market to capability needs, infrastructure readiness, regulations readiness. You know, too much ahead of time people might not need it.

There's so many factors that can make an entrepreneurship or startup might not work. So because of this risk, we need to make sure that there is a, what we call, as much as possible opportunity for everyone to get as much funding available globally, not just locally, to make sure that we can go into the next. successful startup. So in venture capital, capital world, right? One out of every 10, for example, is only expected to be successful. But one, that's one company can basically could be 20x. So that's why it takes over the rest of the risk. And if you put in that in a context that we can only open it for local investors. First of all, the understanding, right? Local investors are used to, you know,

a very much already long-lasting sustainable business for a long time, right? P&L. And also, second thing is, in regards to the ability for them to exit, to liquidate their investment as soon as possible. In Indonesia, yes, the market started to become very good, right? I mean, we've seen some very, very successful unicorn level are exit. But it's still very new.

So the comfort level of them of having this into very very BAU day-to-day popping up liquidation or exit or IPO kind of scheme scheme scene is still very new. So now because of understanding that there is still not let's say, everyone in Indonesia can buy into this yet, even though most of them already started to. And also still, even if all of them are already, as a market in Indonesia, it's still part of even, no, we're not small, but the global is still much bigger. So it's very, very important that we as an entrepreneur have as much potential asset as possible globally. And that

The thing is here's the thing, right? Especially in Indonesia. A long time ago, like 10 years ago, people said, Indonesia is only good if you know you have a blue chip companies that are already have profitable, if you have a good balance sheet or a financial reporting and you have close to, you know, the top of the rank in your business ranking or in your landscape. Now everyone's looking in Indonesia as really a country of a very hot startup that potentially can be the next unicorns, that not only potentially can have really, really good way to be unicorns.

So we're sexy. So if that's the case, why not just let it easy for everyone to race globally? Because the key is it's not how to make it, you know, it's not to prevent global investment to come. The key is how to make sure when they started to come in, how do you make sure that they come in for investment purposes only, not to control certain things that is valuable to Indonesia. For example, right, data sovereignty. Sure.

For example, right, it's the right, the IP protections, intellectual property protections. Data sovereignty, intellectual property protections, and how it actually encouraged to grow local talents. So if we can address all of these three, why would we try to stop it? We should open it as much as we can. I agree. And I see, and I'm seeing... for data protection in Indonesia, from the regulation,

this is to what's been put up the GDPR. The GDPR, yeah, right, more than more than what we're more more conservative than what we can see in America or in the other. That,

it's not just, to give comfort for us who want to bring medirra nationalism, or whatever, and then the other in intellectual property. Maybe, if you're the other than talenta,

I might even go further to democratize talent, so that talenta local, that's not only being nurtured by us, but by anyone from out. Yeah, right. Yeah, right. So, the exchange of ideas is to important,

to be important, to democratize talent. And I'm looking, and I'm going to get from where, okay, okay, a guy. This is democratic, but, but, but, it's stillamma, this is to-depenten national. This is to the next few minutes. Yeah, right?

Okay, let's, you know, spend the next few minutes on your endgame. Okay. We usually, naric, it's in, in 2004, 5. What is Vince's endgame? Or what is Dana's endgame? Talk about that.

about that. Okay. I said very early on, right? For me, it's the most important part of doing this is how to fulfill a human potential. Yeah. And especially I truly believe that Indonesia actually, and we all been saying about this, Indonesia is one of the most potentially high country in the world. But for the last 50 years, we always said that all the time. High potential. So much, Why? Why we don't ever, that's actualization. Actualization.

Everyone's going to be potential. But after 50 years, it's like, when potentials, it's like, when potentials, that's the thing, right? I truly believe now it's the time. With the right time, with the right government, with the right young people mindset, the next generation mindset, it's time for us to fully realize that potential.

And now it's like, Dana is really, my wish is to be part of that in order to actualize the potential. And for me, that's why the end game is that I believe having a platform like Dana that can really help people's life, especially, we call it always daily financial needs. And when we said daily financial needs, that implicates who? Everyone, everyone, everyone in Indonesia, whether or not you are Generation X, millennial, generation Z, whether or not you're big,

companies, small companies, SMEs, we all have a daily financial needs. And when we call about these daily financial needs, about these financial inclusions, right? And who are going to be most benefit about all of this? This is what we call the SMEs. This is what we call the mass populations. And when you keep talking about democratizing talents, I'm always talking about democratizing financial services. So everyone, you know, anyone, you know, if you want to start with one rupee, you can do it.

You want to start with hundred rupees, you can do it. You want to have financial needs on certain things that is micro, micro, you can have it. You want to have the ability to invest in any sort of instruments, if you have the know-how, you can do it. If you want to be able to have a credit, for example, because you are, you know that you're good for it, you're going to pay for it. You want to expand your small business into two, three, four outlets. You want to expand into different regions. You know because you have a good business metric, you know,

you have the ability for you to pay back over time. Then you have a good financial management. Then you will be scored. You will have the ability to actually get a credit. that you deserve. And all of this can be done when you started to go into what we call this digital financial ecosystem. Why? Because with this digital financial ecosystem, that all the data can be more transparent, all the data can be more real, all the data can be more accurate. And because of this ability for us to actually process this data,

and this is very important, right? Processing this data doesn't mean that you're actually going to lose your privacy. It's not. Processing data is just understanding the behavior, then everyone within the ecosystem started to be able to use their data for their benefit instead of someone else is using it for that entity benefit. Now, when I see that, my endgame is that we realize this and we will see Indonesia in in the different economic status that will be before. I really hoping that if we do this right in next two or three or five years, Indonesian economic acceleration will go, like you said, right,

could be into two, three or five times than what we have right now. Easily. Easily. Very much. And this is one of the way we actualize it. I can't resist asking this last one. If I see, there's many platforms digital, yeah,

make gamification. It just seems like a must. But, we're just a lot of again, with games. Without mentioning names, there's one of the people

that's one of the people that's very that's to make them in the game, as one of vertical that they're doing. How important is it for you or data, to gamify to the front? Not only as a vertical,

but as something that can supplant or compliment the verticals' utamination, that's the thing, right? I think that's the thing, right? Everyone have strategy. I mean, gamification is one of the basically marketing strategy. Once again, right? I mean, the conversation about how to make sure that you are remaining in certain ecosystem as long as possible.

That could be a strategy because when you spend most of your time in that environment, it is most likely the next things you're going to do, whether or not in terms of commerce, commerce, whether or not in terms of payments, whether or not in terms of financial services, and then it could go to there. Right? But also, there is a dangerous part, and which is I learn, because I have a company previously called Indomok, that's very much in gaming industry. We were actually the largest market share at the time in terms of gaming industry payment. And the issue that I learned from there is you might be stuck into that category. You might be perceived as, oh, you're actually a gamification company.

So I will use you in that context. If there is anything I want to do relate into gamifications, I'll go to you. If I want to do other things that not relate to gamifications, then I'll go out. And that's a very costly learning because I have to restart a company. again in order for me to get away from there. So I'm not saying it's a wrong strategy, I'm just saying it's a different strategy, but as long as you're comfortable, you know that you're going to be boxed into that. So then, hey, go for it because that can be a big enough box, right?

But in our case, we want to make sure people understand that when you use us, it's really entirely for your financial needs. your daily financial needs. So we want to be specific, we want people to understand, we want people to know that everything that we do is going to be related to that. So if you ever have that kind of needs go to us. If you feel that what we give to you is address your pain points and your value of purpose propositions, then keep using us. And that actually can be shown a lot. What we did in the last two years, we cut down a lot of our promotion on our marketing campaigns, and we focus entirely on product building.

Product quality, product buildings, addressing user pain points, and we've been growing more so than ever. In the last one and a half year, we've grown more than 200%. Like you mentioned before, right, we're close to 100 million users, and we have a very, very active, daily active users. We're doing more than 6 million transactions a day. We actually, in terms of talent pull, we're actually one of the top three companies, according to Rivo,

in Happiness Index. Because we're focused, now back again, right, we're focusing on delivering what the customer needs in the right way, in the right mindset. and making sure we don't go out of that. So that's why I truly believe that will be the way that we're going to do things. All right. Well done.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Vince. For the time. Thank you, thank you, Pa. Okay. So, that's Vince Iswarra, CEO of Dana. Thank you. This is endgame.