Endgame with Gita Wirjawan - What’s Next for Southeast Asia’s Longest-Running Literature Festival?

Episode Date: August 21, 2023

What does it mean to be literate? Why “back to books” is the answer to the current intellectual and sensibility crises? How do we regenerate Indonesian authors and readers at scale? In this multi-narrator conversation, two literacy enthusiasts — Laksmi and Janet DeNeefe — discuss the literature landscape in Indonesia and how technology might play a role in altering the condition, for better or worse. #Endgame #GitaWirjawan #Literacy ------------------------ Episode Notes: https://sgpp.me/eps149notes ------------------------ SGPP Indonesia Master of Public Policy: [e-mail] https://admissions.sgpp.ac.id wa.me/628111522504 Other "Endgame" episode playlists: International Guests Wandering Scientists The Take Visit and subscribe: SGPP Indonesia Visinema Pictures

The more you create a platform for that and bring people together to discuss books and writing and issues, surely you cultivate a growing literary arena and interest. To understand philosophy is digging deep within ourselves by not just reading but also writing. It's a form of us to communicate not just to other people but to ourselves. Because we also struggle to understand ourselves. This is endgame. Hi, time,

I'm here, this is quite about what I'm going to be what you can be not quite, the world that's related to be literate

or be literate or berliteration. Literacy this this is not as much as it can't be definisical only to

be able to but also, to be issue issue that we're here we're here

we're taking two people who I think for people for the important for penning

penerpanan literacy budhubu which in think I think is bullet as an antidote

for the other that after this can't kind of kind of kind of

we're too, too, too, teaback with sound bites that pendic

very very we're coming Lakshmi and Janet Denise. Janet

Tentuhn't very with activities Ubud Riders Festival that's that's been

on over 20 years. This is in the mission to make up

budh budh and menulis and it's and it's for we'd like we want to get into

to get more than how we can't make up to pay a buddhaia, buddhaelis, especially for the people of Indonesia and people Indonesia to the future. In this, discussion this, we'll talk about about issues,

issue that may be exposed in context literacy, terxposed in context discussion and discursus. This issue issue It's also how the impact penangananan

on the human and also about how the young men need to be much more have been having capacity

emotive, not only cognitive, and this maybe may be merlucan to bekein to be

about how we can be philosophate, how we're more, we're much and much more,

and, and also issue line-near, this is true how manusia is able more sensitive, not only sensitive.

Sensibility is a bit better from sensitivity and how we have to have more more about but also

more important especially, in context the conversation with them, arts history, how much the story

how much in the pastal. It's important to we can be leban, wawasance, more sensitive, more can use in the activity

our day-hary. I think this is a matter of what we're talking, discussing with Janet and Loxmi. Slamat-d-dottong-at-in-game. Semoga can be dinkmati.

Thank you so much for coming on to our show. Thank you. Thank you. The pleasure is ours. It's been a dream for us to come here. It's a dream for us, too. It's a, I know it took a while to make this work.

But Janet, what's up in the upcoming Ubud Riders Festival? Yeah, well, actually, first we have the Ubud Food Festival. Yeah, it's all knowing, right? Yeah. And then we have the Ubud Riders and Readers Festival in October, Di Biasa. And then this year we celebrate 20 years. so it's our anniversary. My gosh.

It's a bit of a... The writer's actually. Okay. So the food's just a baby compared to the writers festival. How long has the food been around? Well, I guess it's our sixth event this year, but, you know, with a break with COVID for two years. So it's kind of like seven years, but eight, I don't know, but yeah.

Okay. And what do you think might or will make this year different in the past for both? for both the food and the writers? I guess the food festival is just a really exciting program and we have a lot of little food tours around the island so people can actually see what's happening behind the scenes and connect with artisan producers and see different foods, sea salt, palm sugar,

chocolate, things like that and just, I mean it creates this whole Garden of Eden, doesn't it, with Bali, the fact that we just have everything. So we love to show our guests, you know, our visitors, how amazing barley is. And then we have a lot of great chefs appearing, both from Indonesia and this region. And lots of amazing food. So, yeah, it's pretty fantastic. We all love it because food's such an enjoyable thing, you know.

It's the greatest pleasure in life, really. One of them. So anyway. And the writers? That's going to be in October. Yeah, the writers is the 20th anniversary, so that's October again. We're currently selecting writers and mapping out a program and trying to think about what we can do to make it really exciting, more festive.

So, yeah, that's kind of our homework right now. Is a succession and play on the Oobud Writers' Festival? As in... You see Luxmi as somebody who's... Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I forgot to tell her that, by the way. I know. Nobody asked me, but it's okay.

Nobody asked me what I wanted to do, but it's fine. Yeah. Yeah, that would be nice, wouldn't it? What do you think? One thing that I would do different than my mom for the festival is going more online, incorporating more technology, and just being more present in this, you know, platform, in these platforms on social media and just, online in general.

I think that, yes, there's of course a threat to reading being extinct. No, I don't think it will ever be extinct, to be honest. We will always have to read. It's one form of communication that can never go away. But, yeah, it's definitely shifting. We have chat GPT now. Yeah, it's amazing. We need to talk about reading and writing in general.

Yeah. What do you think of chat GPT? As you say, amazing good, amazing bad. It's really scary, actually. Because we've experimented writing things, you know, like somebody experimented with a story and it's like, damn, it's not bad. So, yeah, I don't know how it's going to pan out, actually. Because there's one guy, I think, on the internet, who wrote like 10 books in one year with chat, GPT.

like and you could so you could write a book in a few minutes yeah so it's um that's the thing we all talk about modern technology but are we sort of killing ourselves with these great innovations where does it go or where does it end you know i've personally never tried chapter dpt you should but i feel like i'm very interested in AI when i talk like i use it all the time i know full disclosure oh my gosh um No, I'm very interested in AI and technology. And I feel like because we are always on our phones, we're always on social media, our phones has become our right hand, basically, an extension of our bodies. We are also at the same time going back into spirituality to balance it out.

We're also learning about connecting with our emotions and going deep within ourselves. So I feel like just staying optimistic. mystic about it is important. We're all here to trial it out together. But it's inevitable. It's part of our progress. And we're going in that direction. So might as well just learn from it. Take it in and see how we can just do our best to not for it to take over what we have as humans that makes us so special. I mean, I've been talking about. talking about it quite a lot, but how AI is not being discussed in a multi-disciplinary manner. You brought up the topic of spirituality.

Yes. Right? And I think that needs to be infused in the discussions, preferably discourses, with regards to how AI could be utilized for better purposes of humanity. But I've been critical in the sense that the technology. they tend to just be very exclusive without roping in. People of culture, people of spirituality, people of economics, people of sociology, people of other dimensions. And there is a risk that this thing gets forward in a very unjudicious manner.

Because you need those dimensions, right? What do you think? So you feel like with AI, it might divide us, divide us even more. Yeah, that's one possible consequence. And divide is okay if it's just left or right. But divide of its top and bottom, that's a much more scary proposition, right? And I've been saying quite a lot about how the Internet has elitized society.

to the point just the top 0.1% would control disproportionately much larger percentage of the economy as compared to the remaining 99%. This, I think, could further exacerbate the inequality that we've all tasted in the last few decades. It could be corrected. I guess it just goes to show that, you know, these days power means knowledge, intellectual. Yeah. That's even a word. Yeah.

Intellect. Yeah. That's where you can go in that 0.00 whatever percent. Absolutely. Right? That's the power these days. Yeah. It's not who's president.

It's who has the brain. And in an ideal world, intellect who needs to be democratized. Yes. So that everybody owns it. Everybody gets it. Everybody feels it. Everybody shows it.

But intellect has not been democratized. It's been just in a few zip coats and a few heads, as opposed to all 8 billion heads of humanity. Now, how do we make sure that intellect actually occupies the heads and minds of all these 8 billion people? So, you want to? Very interesting. Well, I mean, one means is. Reading.

Exactly. Yeah. Education. Yeah, education. I mean, it's pretty systemic. Mm-hmm. In one way, the Internet has opened it doors to everyone. To information.

To information. But not ideas. Not ideas. And it also makes us all standard. We all share or have the same ideas because we consume from the same platform, the same sources. And that's where books comes in. Yeah. You know, we read about things from years back.

We read from things that are written from, like, people from across the world with different experiences, with different cultures and different ideas. And we all get to share and read about that. So I guess, yeah, that's why we need to go back into reading actual books and not just read from the Internet. Yeah. What do you think, Tiana? Yeah, agree, of course. And I guess in order to get back to reading like that, there has to be some sort of movement,

which probably has to be through social media or using the platforms that people are familiar with. Do you sense that what you've done for the last 20 years, at times, not all the time, that this would have been an exercise of futility or utility? Well, I mean, I knew when we started the Writers Festival that we were in a place where people didn't necessarily read a lot. But I figured that the more you create a platform for that and bring people together to discuss books and writing and issues, surely you cultivate a growing sort of literary arena and interest in that, you know, just create that kind of platform. And I think when you bring people together, it just sort of creates an excitement anyway that encourages people to read, you know, if it's all about reading.

I mean, it's really cool what you're doing, right? But we're talking about putting that in the context of this massive technological force that makes people just shackle themselves into sound bites of 30 seconds, three minutes or 100,000. 40 characters or 280 characters. What you're doing is a great act of nobility, right? It's good, but what do you think can be done to amplify or to be amplified in such a way that we can actually be the antidote to this massive technological force that forces or shackles people into this narrow corridor of sound bites? Yes. I guess, well, trying to focus on the young people. You know, we have the emerging writers as part of the program, trying to engage with them and get them more involved. We also have the satellite program after the festival where we go to remote areas around Indonesia,

trying to connect with, like, marginalized communities, in fact. So just, yeah, trying to connect with people and create opportunities, I guess, through writing. And I think, too, we need to think more about awards for young writers and things like that. I agree. Yeah, monetize those kind of things. Yeah. I mean, this is all new to us, right? We're only going through this now.

So we really need to think of ways. And for the younger generations, actually, a lot of them are quitting social media. It's becoming a trend as well, just like getting out of it. Really? Yeah. That's new. Getting completely out of social media? A lot of people are.

I mean, a couple of years ago, there were the trends of like these phones that are made somewhere in Scandinavia that are not smartphones. They're just phones for calling. Okay. Okay. So getting out of that. You're talking about here? No.

Not here. The young in Europe. Yes. Okay. Do you see that as a trend that's going to be trendy here? In the West. It could be. No, I'm not saying no.

Okay. But, okay. I feel that in order for this to be scalable, I think it's got to involve the big guys. Right? The big guys being either the government or somebody out there that has stupid money to throw. Yeah. Right? I'll be very, you know, open about this.

I mean, would there be anybody or any people out there with stupid money who perhaps would share, right? Your sentiments, our sentiments about the need to get as many people as possible. possible to read. And without being able to read properly, they're not going to be able to write properly. Right? What do you think? Ask me? Well, I feel like, I mean, we are homo sapiens. So we need a lot of stimulation from the outside world. And these people with a lot of money need to be able to stimulate the young children to be interested in reading from a very very early age. And when they are stimulated from reading, they also open up doors for themselves to go into other things and not just like consume from one source. And then we all become standard.

Standardize. And then also to, you know, make them want to write. I don't exactly know the answer or the solution or how you can spend this money to make people want to read and write. But maybe popular culture can help celebrities, influencers. Like you? You're a celebrity. Yes. That's what I'm trying to do. I mean, the whole thing with me joining Putri Indonesia was to just at least bring the awareness that literacy is important.

That we as a country, we're so illiterate and we need to uplift this problem because it's so underrated. Yeah. And I look at literacy as one where you don't just read or write. Exactly. I think literacy ought to be defined as a place where you can actually read, write, undertake risk, and manage risk. That's the definition of literacy and totality, right? Yes. I mean, for me, it's, you know, your ability to understand the world, understand each other,

to communicate, to be able to process information around you. Right. And if people are not literate, they can't even process what's on social media. You know, we're just given information, and we believe it. There's so many hoax and so many false information going around, and we're all consuming the same thing. So it's just...

It's called the post-truth era, where people fail to separate facts from fiction. And with algorithms and, AI, you know, we're only being fed the things that they think that we like. So we're so limited in our imagination these days, right? That is so true. We lack the imagination. Yeah.

And we can break away from that by diversifying the books that we're reading. And I'm not accepting of the fact that people keep equating algorithmic amplification with democracy. Right? These algorithms that we've been talking about, they actually amplify certain narratives that are divisive, right? That are polarizing. And as if we're supposed to call them or equate them with democracy, it's not healthy.

No. And I think democracy is in a recession in many places, in the U.S., Western European countries, and others. it needs to be, I think, taken a view off by the young generation. I mean, I'm going to be issue, issue what, selan baca, that's what, to beck, that's important to be able to be the same. I mean, you're, what, 27?

So what would you want your fellow 27-year-olds and younger to think about what's cool in the future? What's cool for the future? I think what's cool in the future is to be able to stay true to who you are, your roots, do not lose track of yourself, of our history, of our culture, and to take that in, to take that with us to the future with technology along with us. Okay, do you sense that your generation understands Indonesia's history?

I don't think so. Yeah. Not enough. Because, maybe we're going to because we're going to get into history that's taught in school, yeah, a sejara. But not the history that our ancestors

knows about. Not about our connection with nature. Bucan, local. You know, those kind of histories. like mythology and the things that we don't fully understand, but it's been with us and it's shaped us as who we are now that we've forgotten about. Isn't there a sense that the richness of our history

is not adequately documented? Yes. Right? Absolutely. Which correlates with the fact that the culture of writing is shallow. The culture of reading is shallow, right? This is, I think, an explanation for the broader narrative. Why, I think the West was able to call it supersede the Eastern culture for a couple of hundred years or what.

Because the West was able to document their wisdom, their knowledge, whatever, right? But it's not too late, right, for Indonesia to start documenting. Yeah, we need to start now. I mean, one form of preserving our culture or, you know, we don't write it, but we have it in the forms of performance. Like in Bali, we have the traditional dances that tells a story. But that just stayed there until now. And we didn't take that in.

From the people to the child, from, from, to children, and like, and other. Yeah. Yeah. But, no. Yeah. Yeah. Word of mouth. Word of mouth.

Performance, songs. But now we need to understand. understand the importance of writing and we need to start now. Yeah. I agree. I think art history is an essential part of what we are and how we've become what we are and how we can become what we want to be. And we've realized that the history that we know of were written by the ones that were in power at the time. But now we can all write. We can all do it. I mean, can you imagine just not like now the things that we know of the past were because of a certain people. So if we don't write it ourselves now, we don't write what's happening right now at the current time.

In the future, our kids won't know about it. They would know our stories from a perspective of just a few selected people. Yeah. What else? that was the first issue. Or maybe people don't see the importance of writing because they're documenting things now through photos. But I think we need more than that. We need more photos.

We need more than just photos and videos. Yeah, they're documenting the food that they're eating. Yeah. Instead of, you know, what medical explanation for what happens? Hey, at least write the recipe, right? So at least like your future kids can try to make it. and taste it just the way it tastes exactly. I mean, if you've done this for 20 years, right?

I mean, what has sunken into your mind about what could be done better? For the importance of literature in Indonesia, our ability to document things, our ability to read and write better? I mean, I suppose for me, I mean, to be honest, I don't read much in Indonesian. And I always wish that we could be more part of translation of Indonesian work. That for me is something we've been talking about how to start that. At least by translating it, then you reach a wider audience. I know maybe some people think, well, why should we translate it?

It was so I can read it, you know. Yeah, so I guess. And also I think if you have young writers, if they have that opportunity, to get their work translated. That's quite a nice incentive. But even just to publish it, of course, is another great thing. But I guess for me, I just would love to see more Indonesian work on the shelves around the world, you know, because when you go to bookstores, there's very little.

Yeah. And if you ask people on the street, name a few Indonesian. writers. I was talking to John McGlynn about this. Well, he said within Indonesia itself, if you ask people on the street to name 10 Indonesian writers, they would struggle. And then if you, yeah, the tool, man. Yeah, I mean, you had the problem in the 80s about not. Actually, that's a great observation.

Yeah, yeah. Name me the top or just any 10 Indonesian authors. Yeah, you have 30 seconds. Yeah, I could probably name six. Yeah. And I can't do 10. And I also was telling you that I have a problem. I feel guilty.

I feel ashamed that I don't know enough Indonesian writers and I don't read enough Indonesian books. But is that my fault? Is that the fault of my generation? Or is it also because we simply don't have enough writers and books that interest us? All of the above. So it's a bit of a dilemma. But I think we can start now and do better.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I've been quite vocal about the need for Indonesians to speak international languages, right? One of which is English. And I say English at the risk of being criticized. It's because most of the wisdom and knowledge throughout the world would have been written in English, unfortunately or fortunately. And most economic activities throughout the world are undertaken in English. If you live in Afghanistan, you want to trade with somebody in Ethiopia. The trade is not done in Afghan, nor Ethiopian, nor Mandarin, nor Japanese, nor Italian, more than likely it's going to be done in English. So there is a vested interest, right, to explore pengatawan.

There is a vested interest to basically expand the economic tie by engaging in economic activities with as many people as possible around the world. So I would guess that there's probably no more than 5% of the population of Indonesia that could speak English or international language, You being one of them, right? For me, language is a complex thing. Not really. I mean, I've seen it with my own eyes where we could actually teach somebody in Flores

to be proficient in three months to the point he could get a job and put food on the table for a family of six. Three months. But I think for me, language is very complex, especially in Indonesia. because I heard from the writer Felix, Felix Nessi. He said that it's very hard even for him coming from Entete. Yeah. If I'm not mistaken, NTT, for him to write in Indonesian.

Simply because a lot of the words, he cannot even translate to Indonesian, let alone English. Wow. Wow. So I think it's also complex because if you talk to translators, you know, how do you translate Rumi's poetry into English? It takes a while, right? You also have to understand the context. You have to understand the emotion that goes into it. The current period of time, it was written, all these little factors to translate it into one single language.

It's pretty hard, my opinion. Okay, that makes sense. But I want to go back to the earlier point, though. How about if 100 million Indonesians speak international languages? Don't you think that would be awesome? I mean, it would definitely open up Indonesia to the world. I believe that we're the most invisible, one of the largest and most invisible countries in the world. Absolutely.

I think we have to be open. So many people don't know about us. Right? Is that because of language or yes, I do believe that language is a factor. It's predominantly because of language. Yes. Yes. We're not telling the story about ourselves to the rest of the world.

But even the ones that do speak English, are they writing about us? Are they doing anything to... I am, but very few are. Exactly. So language is a big factor, but it doesn't have to be just an excuse for now. What are we going to do about it? I take your point. I think you're solidifying my point in the sense that if more and more, if not a lot more,

Indonesians were to master any international language. There's hope for telling the story about Indonesia better and more. Only if they read and write. Absolutely. That's my point, right? It has to go hand in hand. This is what a wood writer's festival is all about, right? This is about the aspiration of ushering this new culture of reading more than 280 characters,

ushering the new culture of writing more than 280 characters. We're talking about two to 300 pages worth of thoughts. I don't care if you use Chad GPT for starters, but you can perfect them by humanizing it. And humanizing it, you can basically undertake whatever form of hypnosis upon the hallucinations that are going to be done by the AI, right? But that's a good start. And the other good start, I think, is really being able to.

able to communicate in international languages on the basis that a lot of most of the knowledge, most of the wisdom around the world is documented in English. There's a lot in Chinese, but there's a lot more in English. Right. And most of the economic activities around the world are done in English. And a good thing is, I feel like I'm talking more here. No, but I'm thinking. Yeah. The good thing is, AI, can help accelerate that process. I think we also have to look back in time. We have to see how the Roman civilization became so big.

We have to look at the role of the Latin language. Yeah. I think like we're going through something similar, but instead of Latin, it's English. Yeah. It's the global language currency of the time of the moment. If Javanese is the most used language around the world, I'll teach anybody.

around me to learn Javanese. I'm not saying you shouldn't. Yeah. If it would have been Latin, Roman, Mandarin, Japanese, Portuguese, or Italian or Spanish, I would tell anybody just, you know, because we want to be more knowledgeable. Yeah. I think this is a very important and interesting conversation for people of my generation. Yeah.

Because we're speaking more and more English now. Yeah. But then at the same time, we're also being, in a way, criticized. or judge for being able to speak better English sometimes than Indonesian. Me, for instance, as puttling Indonesia. If you take on that criticism. If you're, if you're going to be aggrathe about to say more, not ever on language more, not ever among bassaugh, d'bashol, right?

But if I'm buchanan, yeah, I say, I'm just, putre in English. Bhoprish, Bhoprish, Indonesia. Putri Indonesia's, maybe more global perspective. I can see that becoming a short. Is it my fault? Can you blame me that I had the opportunity to go abroad for eight years since I was 16 to study abroad where I predominantly use English? So I started thinking in English. That's why speaking in Indonesian was a struggle for me coming back from abroad. Yeah. It's just because simply it's just easier for me, much more efficient and faster to. to get my ideas out in English.

That's why you're actually back. And he's back. And he's back. And he's backer. And he's not yet. And out of the country to make uphili

the penitinian Indonesia. It's, that you're, you're, you can't? Mm-hmm. Yeah, right?

My values as Indonesian is still very strong. It's just I have this language barrier. Yeah. But I'm I'm going to be. And I also can't

BASA BASA Balae. Because of my own American I grew up in Bali. If I'm going to BASA Indonesia with Lackat Bali,

but but you But, you But, you know, but I'm, so, so, so,

my mom, with my mom with English from from my mom, because Englishan from the school.

Yeah. So, um, BADA. Yeah. Okay, the story. That's the issue

what other. The other issue what other than people, the generation muda, to have who's power

to understand? I just feel the young young that's more more

more than more sensibility towards things beyond than other than themselves

or other than what's happening on social media. I think they just need to have more

sensibility. towards nature. I don't know if it's because my influence of living in Italy, I have a bigger sensibility towards nutrition, health, my food, appreciating quality. You're talking about sensitivity? Sensibility. Okay. All right.

Just being more sensible about things. Okay. So there's access. Sensitivity. There is access, action, excessive action towards certain things by your generation that needs to be, made more sensible? No, I don't think there's access. I just think that, you know,

we need to be more educated on what's really important in life. Being sensible about things, about where our food is coming from. This is just a small example. Appreciating quality. Understanding what life is about, what's truly important for us. It's our health. It's how we feel. It's our environment. It's our relationship with people. It's the time that we have. It's the time we have to spend with our family and all these things that I feel like was so strongly present in Italy where I was living for four years, but not here. And maybe even less also in Italy for the younger generation. So I think we need to keep this. We need to remember that what's important in life. is at the end connection, our experiences, our time.

Is this more of a lifestyle thing that needs to be altered for the better? I think it's also spirituality, understanding the world. Philosophy. Yeah, it's injecting more philosophy into our lives. I'm with you. What would it take for your generation and the younger ones to better philosophize or to philosophize more? I feel very lucky because I got it from my parents, especially my dad.

My dad, let's give credit to my dad for once. My father. My husband. Okay. Yeah. He would always tell me stories about spirituality, tell me stories about, you know, Balinese Hinduism.

And like just talking about what's my name. most important things in life. What's important, which is, you know, Dharma, Adharma, what you do for other people, and all these things. Just connecting with the material world. That's one thing, my father. The other was my experience living in Italy. That gave you a bit more philosophical.

Appreciation. Whatever. Appreciation towards life beyond the materialistic world, beyond social media, our phones. Yeah, just appreciating things where it came from the food that we consume. Mainly it was the food because I was in Italy. What benefits have accrued to you by way of becoming or being more philosophical or sensitizing yourself with philosophy? that I can just feel better about myself. I feel like I'm becoming a good person.

There's a lot, a lot of things. It's mainly for me first, how I can feel settled with the life that I'm living in, with the body that I'm in. Because me as a Balinese, we believe that we are a soul. And I have a lot of questions about life. And I think many young people do. struggle to understand where we're here. And that's the role of philosophy to make us feel okay and to make us feel like we're not lost. We know where we're going. We know what we're doing.

We know what's the purpose of life. How do you define enough for yourself? Because that, that I think is pretty Zen, right? I mean, the young generation have difficulty in defining enough of many things. Well, I'm young, so I still I'm talking to you. I'm asking you. I mean, I think I can ask Janet the same question. Have you had enough?

No. I mean, what, I mean, what, how do you develop the ability to say that it's enough, that you're content? Since we're on a subject of philosophy. It's very interesting. And I'm never content. Because sometimes I'm like,

sometimes enough is like understanding that there's limitations. to things, you're told not to be on your phone too much. So once you realize that you're on your phone too much, you tell yourself, okay, that's enough. But that's coming from external sources. You're told that you shouldn't be on your phone more than an hour. Yeah. And then you say to yourself, that's enough.

Okay. But I think enough is being able to define yourself how things are to your advantage, how things can add value to your life, how things make you feel content, truly from inside. But has there been a moment or an episode where you didn't get what you want it, but you were able to tell yourself, I'm cool with it. You can't. Oh, it's good. Some may jagger. What do you think?

I, to be honest, struggle to communicate as a kid. And I often felt like because I couldn't communicate what I really wanted, I often didn't get what I want. So I just buried it inside. And try to just act cool. But what ability did you develop that allowed you to be calm with it? Well, it's a very, uh, I mean, you brought up philosophy, right?

So I'm trying to get you to philosophize a little bit more. I mean, I can tell you what and how I define enough. If I know I've done my best, I've done my most, and I'm prayed for it, and I still don't get it. Ekless, I'm content. Yeah, I think that's also. Don't push it. And I can still sleep. That's also how I've been dealing with things, just understanding that, um,

There's not one way to roam. There's many ways. So if you are rejected or you don't get what you want at one point, you know, there's other things that you can do and you move on and you just trust that it's not meant for you. And you trust that there are greater things ahead waiting for you. What about you, Janet? Yeah, I'm just trying to think. I don't know if everything.

You're married to a philosopher. So you're going to have some. Yeah, my dad has a PhD in Hindu philosophy. Yeah, I'm really not philosophical. She's Australian. I'm Australian, I don't have it. She's about to crack some jokes. Yeah, now you're swimming, mate.

I don't know, I don't know. If I ever think enough is enough anyway, I'm trying to think. When have I thought, okay, that's enough? Yeah, I don't know. I just push myself continually. So, um, I wasn't,

I wasn't suggesting that we all give up, right? Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think there's got to be a point when you know you keep breathing and hitting a brick wall. And you just got to either go around a wall or just chill. I just had an interesting thought. You know, we always think that philosophy is such a heavy topic. It's this heavy thing.

But actually it shouldn't be. I remember my dad would always say like, don't take life too seriously. Yeah. That's how we move on. Just santae just santae. Yeah, that's santae. And philosophy is really about investigating pre-existing truth, right? And if you dare not investigate pre-existing truth, then you cannot philosophize.

Mm-hmm. Right? What I mean by that is I think there's some element of critical thinking that's required for you to philosophize. You got to be able to think critically. You know, there was a statement from one of our guests earlier that having the cognitive capacity is key. But if you combine that with emotive capacity by way of reading a lot on literature, philosophy, history and stuff like that, that will increase your emotive capacity.

Talk a little bit about how understanding or studying philosophy can make a person richer. I think we have to make peace with the fact that we cannot know everything. We cannot be the smartest person in the world. One of the greatest advice I was given to was that before I went to Miss Universe, someone told me that, okay, there's going to be 80 girls there. They're all going to be smart, beautiful. But what you want to do is to show yourself as a wisest person. And I think that's such a special quality to have.

Because we cannot be the most intelligent person. What for if we are not good human beings? Even Albert Einstein talks about, you know, imagination, creativity, having a heart, doing the right thing. Yeah. Because knowledge is not everything. Knowledge is power, but it's not, it doesn't guarantee you to have a good life. It doesn't guarantee that when you're done with your life, it will add value to you. You'll be happy.

Yeah. And I think a lot of the struggles that we're facing now is mental health issues because we forget that emotive qualities are so important. What are some of the little steps that, you know, the young generation could take to better philosophize? Yeah. And again, I was going to expand on that saying that reading is one way for us to really connect. with humanity as well as writing. One of the best Indonesian writer, Bapapuoka Sukanta, talks about how writing makes you more human.

And he told me the story that I was so fascinated by. When he grew up, he was dirt poor. He grew up in Bali. He had nothing. He didn't even own a pen and a paper. but he became and grown to be this amazing writer. He told me that he wrote everything in his mind. And when he went to prison, also one way for him to feel like a human being was to write.

And I think for us to be more wise, more emotional, and to understand philosophy is digging deep within ourselves by not just reading, but also writing. It's a form of us to communicate not just to other people but to ourselves because we also struggle to understand ourselves. What for if we're smart but we don't know what we want in life, we don't understand who we are. So I think we need to really start reflecting more and using books and pen and paper as tools for becoming better and doing better for our world. We've touched upon art history. We've touched upon philosophy.

You talked a little bit about sustainability. Peelianian. For young people, I think it's important. Of course, now we don't want to be talking about sustainability. We don't want to be volunteering or be an activist at such an early age. but we have no other option because it's our future that's at stake. We need to be really demanding more sustainable actions, sustainable policies from governments, businesses, and all these things. Do you think there is enough activism at the grassroots level?

I think there's... Or would you think that the activism is more at the elite level? No, I think there's not enough activism. in person, in real life, that doesn't have to be shown on social media. There's a lot going on on social media, and social media amplifies it. But when you go into your day-to-day life, there's nothing going on. So there's not enough activism that is truly just activism that is not on social media. That is in our day-to-day life, in real life, there's not enough.

So you sense that there is excessive virtue signaling. Yes. Right? Not corroborated by actual action. Yeah. I would say. Or commensurate action. Yeah.

And I would say there's enough if I myself can personally see it on a daily basis, understand it on a daily basis. Yeah. What do you think explains that? Well, just the fact that we are really living so much on our devices. It goes back to my old point. Yeah, we look so much on our devices that we see for an hour all these posts about activism and sustainability. And then we think that our whole day has been evolving around that.

But when we turn it off, there's nothing going on in our real lives. Well, there's a lot of what I call armchair activists, you know, who you claim to be activists. I guess through social media as well, but again, they're not really doing it. I think. Yeah, that's kind of a social media dilemma to you. Yeah, and there's a bit of hypocrisy, right, within the sustainability space. I'm not saying there's, I think there's a lot of genuine, you know,

public intellectuals within that space we're thinking and trying to make things happen. But there's also a lot that are just riding on this, you know, bandwagon for purposes of virtue signaling. When the classic example is, you know, those that have been talking about climate change are actually flying around on private jets. Yeah. I mean, that's a mockery.

And that's hypocrisy at its best. Yeah. Right? Yes. But my question is really about how do we get activism uplifted at the grassroots level? in the kind of scale that we want to. But do we want activism to be lifted on a grassroots level? Or do we want the leaders of the world to do more?

The businesses. Well, I think the leaders of the world are trying. At least they're trying with their rhetoric. You think because I was at the Net Zero summit the other day and everyone was saying that we just need more political will. So it seems like there's not enough political will. seems like they're not doing enough. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, the problem is that most of the politicians, they're shackled, right? By the cycle of five years or the cycle of four years. We call that political cycles or political processes. And when you're shackled by cycles of four years or five years, you can't afford to think about a time frame that's 30, 40, 50 years. Right? So there is a contradiction and there is this irreconcilable nature between what matters for the politician and what matters for the planet.

That makes it very difficult. So I would depoliticize this. Well, it's difficult for us too, Pat, Gita, because, for example, I want to be more sustainable. I want to buy only organic fruits, but it's expensive. Yeah, I'm with you. I want to do recycling properly. But if I decided to subscribe to someone who picks up my organic compost, it's costing me money from my own pocket.

I agree. The government is not subsidizing that for me. I agree. And it's not just the leaders are having it hard. We're also having it hard. We want to do more, do better. But sometimes it's costly for us, and we have our limitations. I'm not going to be taking a 24-hour train from Jakarta to Bali.

Yeah. No, no, I agree. save the planet myself, right? I mean, you'd save the planet from carbonization by walking from Jakarta. By walking. But would you do that? I mean, it might take you two and a half weeks to get there. Exactly.

No, no. I think that's a really extreme way of showing activism, right? But what I mean by activism is not in the sense of getting as many people as possible to buy organic stuff or to walk to work or whatever, but at least understanding, right? How much of a concern carbonization is, you know, for the planet. And I don't think people understand enough about the issue at hand, because I think they're preoccupied with trying to put food on a table. Yes.

They can't afford to think about this fancy dandy narrative of sustainability. Well, that's why I think that sustainability itself should be an industry. We need to shift a lot of our industries to be more green and understand how we can monetize from being more sustainable. And we can't do this alone. Everyone has to join forces. I agree. Moving together at the same time.

Getting as many people as possible. to embrace this new green narrative or green technology narrative. It needs scalability, right? Meaning the adoption of this new green technology needs to be scalable. And for this to be scalable, it needs to be affordable. The problem is it's not affordable for most people, as you have to pointed out earlier. Where do we find that point where, you know, we can enter to for everyone to be able to become more sustainable in a way at the same time so that it can be scalable.

I don't think it's going to be instantaneous. Yeah. It will require time. Absolutely. And it's a new challenge for all of us. For everybody around the planet. Right? Something new that we're facing.

Yeah. So it's not easy. So once you get people to understand. Yes. You deep politicize this. You get people to understand. Then you get them to take ownership of what's important. for the future, then you start politicizing it, right?

And I'm of the view that I think many in the regulatory framework, many in the political framework, they don't have the kind of comprehension of this issue as much as they should, as much as perhaps the experts of sustainability. Yeah. Yeah, again? I think we have too many focus. We are unable to focus on sustainability because, you know, as you said, there's other, so many factors around that that is more important for many people, right? Yeah.

But I think there's some practical steps that can be taken, right? What would it take for people to actually walk to work? What would it take for people to, when they go home, they turn off the lights, you know? Money. Oh, we'll subsidize you to go home and walk home. People will do it. Credit. Yeah, but there's no money.

Yeah, there's no, there's limited money supply. There's limited, you know, ability of most governments around the world to subsidize unless you're China, unless you're Germany, unless you're Canada, unless you're United States or Australia, right? Okay, apalagi. I think, well, people need to be scared. People need to understand that there's a threat and then there's a danger of the climate crisis. So how can we create enough urgency for people to want to do more or better for the future, for their children? How do you think you can create that kind of insecurity amongst many people? without causing panic.

I mean, we're talking about causing insecurity, not panic. How? I mean, if we're talking about a huge amount of people, we have to somehow look into pop culture, maybe. Popularity, we need to do something, perhaps a movie, which starts probably in writing. Yeah. So perhaps books that talks about the dangers of the climate crisis. a speculative dystopian

novel that can warn us against the things that we're currently doing, the business as usual that warns us that that's not good enough that's endangering our existence in this world. What described the dystopia

that you have in mind with regards to sustainability? How bad could it get? Well, we're going to be extinct Before the COVID-19 pandemic, before it got really out of hand, I was reading the book Severance by Lingma. And that's a dystopian novel talking about a virus that infected many people and obliterated her city and then eventually the world. So someone who's a writer who's interested in. or have knowledge in climate change should write something about that.

I can't think of a scenario, but, yeah, I can just put ideas of people should write about this and that. Janet, you got to say something. Which author that you've seen, you've met, you've listened to, hurt, or whatever, who could make an impact in Indonesia? On any issue that matters in the long run. Let me think about that because you mean an Indonesian writer or international? Let's start with Indonesia because the universe is not that big, right? Yeah.

Then we'll expand that into the international universe. Well, I mean, again, it has to be someone young, yeah. Yep. Who impresses you most? In terms of the way they connect with people, etc. As a writer, I'm very fond of Davy Lestari. very dear friend. Yeah, she's wonderful.

What do you think makes her special? I think because she didn't start off from a literary background. She was a singer. Yeah. And then started to write. A really great singer, too. A really great singer, yeah. And then started to write these novels that are more about,

well, more spiritual and all of that. Yeah. just, I think she just connected with people, a bit more like the Palo Coelho kind of on that sort of spiritual journey, etc. So I think she has a huge following, obviously, and connects really well with young people. So I think that's what we're looking for, for someone who connects and communicates in a really egalitarian kind of warm way, you know, that everybody feels included in, you know, inclusive. If I'm in fact that

maybe can be able to make sure, is not a personachir, not penulis. Perhaps the president himself

if he came up with the book after his his reign is over, his time at the office is over. He could,

he might be able to create a huge impact, a shifted mindset. Given his popularity. Given his popularity. Yeah. I agree.

Yeah. Right? Bapajogui Mohan, Dichoba to make a book but you

could be the co-author along with Dharmaan Prasogu because he wrote his first English biography autobiography Really?

Yes It's a really good book and learn a lot I got to ask you this when you look at a writer

does it make a difference between his writing a biography of himself or writing on other things. Does that define the quality of that author? I'm trying to think of that like a novelist who has also done that. Although I suppose it's people like Amitav Ghosh who has written stories about his life, you know, when he was in Egypt, things like that.

which really added to him as a writer, in fact, because now he's also writing about climate change. So his whole kind of body of work is fascinating. And I think he's growing in his ability to write or just the fact that he's done the autobiography, but also novels. And then again, about climate change, etc., Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, if they have an interesting life, you know, makes it more interesting, I don't know. Okay. Let's go back to the Indonesian universe. You were kind of like murmuring in the back about, you know, doing some sort of a book club. So. That I thought is a pretty cool idea. So people. If somebody were to do a book club, right, the way Oprah does it.

Yeah. I think what's so cool about our current generation is that there's so many new business ideas and people need to be more creative and find different ways that are not traditional to monetize things. Well, I started a book club on Instagram and during the pandemic that was quite trendy. And I wanted to help my mom's Writers Festival to be more present online. especially on social media. So I volunteered to host an annual, no, sorry, not I know, a weekly book club, actually. Really?

So for about a couple of months, I was hosting a weekly book club where I would read on Instagram. I would read one book a week and I would invite popular guest stars like Asmara Abigail, for example. And I wanted to understand more about book clubs in general. And I did a lot of research. And of course, I started the book club on IG Live because I was inspired by Kaya Gerber, daughter of Cindy Crawford. She also started hosting an IG book club. And then I was also inspired by Oprah Winfrey.

And then I found out Rees Witherspoon has a book club. And I was just so fascinated by the fact that she is such a smart lady who didn't start a book club just for fun. She started the book club to actually also help writers, but also she monetizes the whole thing. So she would buy exclusive rights from the publishers of these books. And then she would go to Netflix, propose the idea. She would create the content. She would create the TV show or movie. that won Emmy Awards.

And then she would monetize the whole thing. And then she would go back and then buy more rights for books and keep going. And it still is going now. She has 2.5 million subscribers on Instagram for her book club. And she is, I believe, one of the wealthiest actresses in Hollywood. And people need to understand that you can make money from books. You can monetize things. You can do whatever it is you're passionate about and be creative, find ways to make it work.

This is really punchy. And Duolipa also. Duolipa is also very involved in a book club? No, she, I think, starting her book club on Service 95, which is a platform or digital magazine that she created. She's starting her book club there, but she's very involved with the Booker Prize. and she's very active in the literary scene. And she's probably an avid reader. She is.

So what makes these people special and magnetic is that they're genuine. They're genuine. Readers. They're passionate about it. O'Cri's a genuine reader. Yes. And they really believe in the power of books. You know, a book is a square object.

Yeah. Pieces of paper with writings on it. But, I mean, I'm sure you've read a book before. Once you open it, you read like the words and all these things. You get completely transformed and transported into a different world. Yeah. It's just so. People find me weird because I read books.

Yeah, I know, right. Me too. Me too. Especially in Jakarta. Like, oh, you read books. But it's interesting, too, how at the moment, more translated books are being read. Yeah.

I think that's funny. Indonesian to English or English to Indonesia? Just around the world, maybe not Indonesian as much, but the rest of the world is reading. Chinese or Hungarian or whatever translated to English. And more readers of translated work. And more than likely into English, right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

See, it goes back to the earlier stuff, right? Most stuff is documented in English. Well, one of my favorite. book that was this like a collection of essays written by ninia minia powell's the young writer from she's from new zealand but then her mom or father's from malaysia and then china so she's a little bit like me she's from all over the place she wrote it mainly in english but then she would incorporate some kiwi words in there some chinese some some Malaysian so you know it something Sometimes a book doesn't have to be one language.

That's a bit of a trend to incorporate. Really? Yeah, yes. Yeah, yes. What's the most number of languages you're going to have in a book? I would like that. Oh, gosh, not sure. Not about that, but normally if it's their own.

I think she had three. The book's called Bodies of Water. What languages? Chinese. Okay. So she, one part of the essay, she was in China. She had Chinese characters in the book, but she explained everything. It totally makes sense.

There was the Kiwi language because she also grew up in New Zealand. Now, for those that don't understand Mandarin, how would they... I understood. I read it. I read the book. There was like the characters, but then explanation. In English. In English.

Cool. You interviewed her as well. I interviewed her for the Writers' Festival. Wow. She's really interesting young writer based in the UK. She's a great writer. Yeah. She's a cute.

Actually, this book club idea is fantastic. Yeah. Somebody like you ought to do it. So, yeah, the idea is just to create a book club with the Ubud Riders and Readers Festival to bring up Indonesian writers. Yeah. And young. I just can't see this happening with, you know, somebody fly by night, you know,

who never read books and tries to monetize and, oops, okay, I'm doing a book club. No. But it's got to be somebody who genuinely, you know, practices reading. you know and is passionate about this i sense that you're very passionate about reading comes from the mom and the father i mean i try to read as much as i can but of course sometimes you know it's hard for me um right now with all the work i have to do and also i feel like you know my focus is narrowing down with social media we have a shorter attention span it's been really challenging. But because the book club actually helps a lot because then you have to be accountable.

You have a deadline. I have to read the book. So I actually really, really like book clubs. And if you struggle with finishing a book or reading, join a book club. It's going to be much more, much more exciting. It's actually really entertaining. It's like you watching a TV series and then you meet your friend the next day and you talk about it again. It's the same with you. book club. That's nice. But I think once you start reading, you just get into that passion as well. If you were with the book club and having to read, well, then you just get into that

pattern of reading more. Yes, and you read more. You both should do it. You've been doing this for 20 years. I mean, you should expand on this. Yeah. I mean, it's really cool. I mean, in terms of getting more and more people to read.

And businesses should also. so get along with it, publishers, bookstores, because Oprah alone managed to sell 50 million copies or more, like since she started the book club. She can sell anything. She can sell anything. And the good thing about her is she's very selective on what she decides to sell, right? Because people believe in her conscience.

Yes. Right. And that's what makes her special. Similarly, with Rees, not sure about Duolipa, but I think we'll find out. We'll find out. Okay, we've talked about art history, philosophy, sensibility, sustainability, book club.

What else? Well, what do you think is important for humanity or Indonesia in the long run? I just want to talk about what's good for the long run. Well, I mean, we're talking about spiritual leaders before. and just the whole spiritual kind of movement. I think that is an interesting, well, I mean, because we were just watching that Jay Shetty before and looking at these people that talk about lifestyle and spirituality

and how to make the most in life, things like that. I mean, I'm not sure in Indonesia who we have who's like that. But I guess that's what people need right now, that kind of guidance. And I think COVID too, brought those sort of messages and looking after your health and yeah and also the importance of family and your loved ones so maybe we are all getting towards that kind of more spiritual philosophical kind of way and maybe we are we do seek or we need some sort of leader that's

going to take us along with them I think I was going to say you mentioned leader that you know as Indonesians, especially the young ones, we need to know what we want. We need to know what we want from the leaders. We need to demand and voice out what we want from the leaders. How do we want Indonesia to be in 2045? Everyone's talking about Indonesia amas 2004-5. But we need to define it ourselves because we're going to be living in that time. If the world didn't collapse.

Define it for us. I mean, the show is all about 2045. All right. Yeah. Well, first we need to decarbonize. Okay. Not realistic. I think 2050 is the fastest.

2050 is the fastest. Decarbonized to the extent that we achieve carbon neutrality, right? Yeah. Yeah, we want to not keep experiencing these extreme weather. I personally don't want to. live in a place where I feel sick. I don't want the pollution to get worse. I want my environment to be well.

I really believe in well-being in the sense that everything is performing well. Everything is good, is running well, not just, you know, not just like health-related stuff and skincare and beauty well-being in a more holistic sense. that that's the future that I want to be in. I want more security for myself. I want to feel that, you know, we can be free to live life and express our creativity and to do what it is that we want to do without having the burden and the worry about all these problems that my generation didn't create. Yeah. On point. Yeah.

I mean, it's, it's kind of sad that we're mortgaging the future. Yeah. For the convenience of today. Yes. For the benefit of today. Right? Yeah. I want to move along to do the things that are positive and create solutions together with everyone in sync.

And I don't want to be the one talking about sustainability while other people are like, who cares? Why are you talking about that? Or burning carpet. Yeah. Like, why do you care? Yeah. But I think you both have the ability to basically create some sort of a movement, right?

In realistic manner. Yeah. But Paquita, I don't want to be a sustainability or environmental activist. My fashion is in fashion. Yeah, that's not what I'm suggesting. Well, I mean, in fashion, you can be an advocate for, you know, use fashion. Yeah. Not fast fashion.

I'm not a good fast fashion because that's not sustainable. Yeah. There's a lot of things I want to do as a young person. I love art. I love design. I love aesthetics. I guess it's also part of me growing up in Bali. Yeah.

But whatever it is that I'm passionate about or that I want to do, I also have to do it in a smart way and taking care of the environment. So going towards sustainability. Because we still want to do all these things that are creative, artistic, but we need to do it better. Yeah. Well, let's pick up on this. I mean, there's a lot of stuff in the fashion industry. Yes. Unfortunately. That's not in line with the spirit of sustainability.

Yeah, we're one of the most polluting industries in the world contributing three to five percent of the total global CO2 emission. Correct. Yes. But that's why we need to make it more green because we are the problem. We need to stop excluding ourselves because we are not concerned about sustainability. or because we are not in that industry. I get that, but how? How are you going to do it?

I think slowly, slowly, people need to make small incremental changes. And people need to start talking about it. People need to stop judging as well. Judging that you want to be more sustainable. You want to use your own bottles. You don't want, sorry, plastic bottles. You want, for example, reusable bottles in an event. Yeah.

Would you be supportive of use fashion? Of course. Okay. Fashion is not... To me, that's a low-hanging fruit, right? I mean, fast fashion, I think, is highly unsustainable. Yes. Right?

Because to the extent you change models every two months, styles every two months, the need to just keep on producing. I mean, there's this hypnosis that the manufacturers are doing upon humanity to change clothes every two months. Yeah. I mean, new styles, right, every two months, not change clothes every two months,

but you can change every day. But it's not good for the planet. Yeah, fashion my definition. Unless they can actually tangibly come up with technologies that can actually manufacture, you know, in an environmentally clean manner, which I'm not seeing yet. Yeah. And I believe that people are like, oh, waiting for that.

They're just like handing it over to someone who they think could solve this problem and then waiting until that happens. Yeah. But then doing business as usual. Yeah. Fashion by definition is not sustainable. Yeah. Yeah.

That was like during COVID. We all thought that fashion might change. or that it might become more sustainable. I mean, there was just this feeling that maybe things would change, but actually nothing did. Everybody talked about it, but nothing happened. We're facing a recession, but the luxury market is going up. Yeah.

You know, I was reading this report on the demand for carbon or oil for the next few decades. It's actually flat. You know, one would have thought it's going to taper down, right? it doesn't seem to be so that just like proves that we're doing business as usual no what's unusually good is automotive that's going to come down demand for oil from the automotive sector is going to come down yeah because people are electrifying cars yeah yes but what's not coming down is petrochemical which is going to be used for fashion and and everything you find in a car

everything you find in a room, everything you find in a plane, everything you find in a boat, ship or whatever, requires petrochemical capabilities. So that's going to rise up. The most polluting part of fashion is the material production. It contributes to 35% of pollution in the fashion, the fashion cycle. Right. And the third is aviation. in the next few decades, you're not going to see an electric plane

that's going to be transporting three to 400 people across the Atlantic or across the Pacific or whatever. And we're not going to stop. I mean, we stopped during the pandemic and look at it. Yeah, people are flying. Traveling now. Revenge travel. Revenge shopping as well.

Revenge everything. So you've got a decline of demand from automotive. You've got an incline of demand from petrochemicals. you've got an incline of demand from aviation. So net net, it's flat. We were talking about sustainability earlier, and I guess the solution is not regression, not going back to old ways or changing things.

It's about finding the best alternatives, right? I agree. I agree. But I think that illustration captures what's possibly going to happen. You know, as much as you want to pivot to renewables, there are just certain things that are not going to be replaced with renewables, such as petrochemicals demand and, you know, demand for oil from the aviation industry.

Realistically. Well, Indonesia is building a petrochemical industry. We're going to start producing our own. Because the demand for clothes, the demand for components and whatever that's going to be in a car, it's going to be in a room, it's going to be in a plane, that's going to be in a boat, that's going to be, it's all going to require petrochemical activities. The thing is, it's such a convenient material. And we cannot go back from convenience.

We're creatures of convenience. So that's the dilemma. How do we deal with things? Walk to work. Reduce, right? Reduce, reuse, recycle. We need to start using this reduced reuse to recycle in order, reducing things. Yeah.

So, so important. I just think that in the absence of catastrophic scenarios, I don't think it's going to be easy to change habits, you know, that are off convenience. Definitely. We've talked about a lot of stuff So much What else? What's me, Janet?

Any big names coming up in the Obed Writers' Festival? We have Well, I'm thinking of international names We have Geraldine Brooks Who's a Pulitzer Prize winner Actually Australian, but living in the States Former journalist

I've been a big fan of hers for a long time so I'm really excited. She's going to be there physically? Yeah, physically, yeah. Yeah, I mean, we've sort of gone back into the full physical festival. Yeah, it is. I mean, we really did think, well, I was even hoping that we could still keep an element of online, you know, I felt that.

Yeah, to reach out to more. Yeah, yeah, like we did last year, you know, that can still work, but we haven't quite gotten around to that part of it yet. But, you know, beyond that, it's just as usual, a really, dynamic mix of lesser-known writers, but with no less quality of writing or words to say. So, you know, and trying to also think about the full festival that's not just writers, but it's also performers and artists, things like that. So just trying to make sure we have a really dynamic package.

So, yeah, still gathering names. So, yeah. Ask me any final points? Well, I hope that Pajoko, we will write a book to solve all our problems that we talk about today. Wow, that's a little bit of everything. But that's a fair request. He's going to have a lot of time on his hands.

If not a book, maybe a Netflix series, like what President Obama's doing. Have you watched any? The G-word? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think he agrees with us that, you know, the solution to... You agree with him.

Reaching the masses is through pop culture, to entertainment. Yeah, I agree. We're talking about that. How do we breach the masses? Pop culture. Think about that book club. I will. I think that's a cool idea.

Thank you. Yeah. Would you like to be my guest? Sure. Oh, my God. Sure. Yeah, well, it's going to be so good for Indonesian writers. Because, like, Reis, With a spoon, you know,

She made where the crowd at sing boom. So hopefully we could do the same for Indonesian writers with this book club, not globally, but at least in Indonesia. And I need, yeah, celebrities, influencers to also help me do that. Oh, they will study and all the other. Yeah, wonderful. And there's so many stories that can be told that, you know, I guess it's our job to reach out to young people and start to...

Whatever it takes to make ourselves better in storytelling. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, because in the U.S., you know, books turns into sagas, movies, blockbusters. We don't see that here so much. The last one was Las Garpalangi. Yeah.

We can do even better. Yeah. Right? We can't just stop at that and then... Yeah. pet ourselves in the back. There's still more work to do. Sabar, la, sabar. I lived in Italy for four years, so

I've learned to not be patient. Okay, well, you're back in Indonesia. Yes. For one time, menjabat, so much. Yeah. All right. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It's been a pleasure. Also keep doing amazing things.

Thank you. I watch your podcast religiously. Thank you. Thank you. That's, Marksmey and Janet Deneve from Bali. Thank you. This is endgame. To be stimulated.

Stimulation. Yeah. Answering your questions. Which is good. It's got to be like that. Which is why we're not scripted. We'll come back to your tears, Marlige.

There's no be Ayunda. But that's thing. I'm going to do.