Endless Thread - Encore: Black Lives Matter IRL And Online

Episode Date: December 10, 2020

Endless Thread is on break so we're sharing one of our favorite episodes from the past year. We published it back on Juneteenth 2020 after asking for stories that caught our listeners' attention at the height of the George Floyd and Breonna Taylor police brutality protests around the country. The episode was recently included in a roundup of “100 Outstanding Podcasts From 2020” from The Bello Collective.

Support for endless thread comes from MathWorks, creator of MATLAB and Simulink Software, to design and develop engineered systems, accelerating the pace of discovery in engineering and science. Learn more at Mathworks.com. Support for WBUR comes from Is Business Broken, a podcast from the Mayrotra Institute at Boston University that explores questions like, why is innovation in healthcare so hard? Is ESG just greenwashing? of course, is business broken? Listen, wherever you get your podcasts. Hey guys, just a heads up. This episode deals with sensitive subject matter and contains strong language. Produced by the I-Lab at WBUR, Boston. Hey, friends, how are you doing? Well, we hope. Endless Thread is currently on break in the Endless Thread Mad Science Lab as we prepare for 2021. but in the meantime, we want to share one of our favorite episodes from the past year. It was included in a roundup of the 100 best podcast episodes of 2020 from the Bello Collective.

By the way, if you like podcasts, the Bello Collective is a great way to find them. It's Bellowcollective.com. We produced this episode back in June at the height of the George Floyd and Brianna Taylor police brutality protests around the country. And while this episode describes a specific intense moment, from the last year, it's talking about issues in real life and online like systemic racism and police brutality that are as present as ever. So here's our episode, Black Lives Matter. Over the last few weeks, we've been asking you what stories have caught your attention as millions of people around the country and around the world have been coming together

to protest systemic racism and police brutality. Today, which if you're listening on the day our show comes out is Juneteenth, you're going to hear less from us. Instead, you're going to hear mostly the voices of others, starting right now. I'm Allison Lane. I'm the Yellow Rose. And you're listening to Endless Thread. The show featuring stories found in the vast ecosystem of online communities called Reddit. We're coming to you from WBUR, Boston's NPR station. Today's episode, Black Lives Matter. When we asked you guys for stories about what's happening around the country, one of the first responses we got was from a listener named Jewel, who wrote to us about her friend Allison and Allison's new friend, Rahul. Allison and Rahul met a few weeks back during a protest in

Washington, D.C. on June 1st. This was when police and members of the National Guard used pepper spray, tear gas, and other crowd control efforts to disperse protesters and make way for President Trump to walk from the White House to St. John's Church and get his photo taken in front of it holding a Bible. That show of force, which surprised many people, was how Allison and Rahul eventually met. I'm Allison Lane. I'm from the D.C. area. I've lived in D.C. for nine years. I've been a bartender and podcaster for the majority of that time.

My name is Rahul Dube. I live in Washington, D.C. on Swan Street. I'm a health care innovator and entrepreneur. In June 1st, I actually went on a bike ride with some friends. And I was heading home. So I actually walked to pick up a friend from work. We went to go meet a couple of other friends at the White House. I hadn't been protesting this week or hadn't intended to because of COVID. It was a gorgeous night.

It was three-quarter moon. I live on a gorgeous street, Swan Street, beautiful Mediterranean sky. It was just this weird kind of blue. and I walked over to the Masonic Temple, which was a couple blocks away from me. And I know it was past curfew, but I live in a nice neighborhood, and I'm kind of a night owl,

so I wanted to go, stretch my legs a little bit. We saw the police officers on horses pushing back the crowd for the president's photo op in front of the church. We had no idea what was happening on a blockway where we were stopped by police, so we kind of tried to walk around towards the front of the White House,

and at that point, they started pushing protesters in different directions, more towards Georgetown, more towards Chinatown. I saw police on 16th Street lining up, kind of screeching off in different directions, kind of in formation. So I walk back, I get back to 15th Street, and there are 40 riot geared up officers at the end of my street, which is Swan and 15th. And I looked at an officer.

There were literally all kind of like robocops. It was really weird. This isn't DC police, because I know DC police. I've lived in D.C. and Swan Street for around 17 years. So I see one of these robocops with his helmet off, so I figure he's the officer. I said, I live right there, and I point to my house. My house is the fourth house in. And I said, I need to get in.

He goes, you can't. I go, sir, I go, something's going on. And I go, I just need to go there. So he goes, okay, go ahead. I take four steps in toward the three deep barricade of robocops, and I get put. pushed up against the wall, like pushed as a nice word. I mean, I kind of flew. And the guy that I was just talking to says,

hey, he lives there, let him through. We get to around Belmont Street, but we couldn't go any further. We couldn't go any further north because there were still police officers in front of us, you know, kind of blocking our access to Columbia Heights. So we had to march south. And they pushed us into Swan Street. Nobody intended to be at Swan Street that night. We didn't want to be in a residential area where we were marching back actively

towards the White House. But we get pushed into Swan Street. Swan Street is full, almost full. And I'm just like, what is going? Why are they holding these people? And the crowd is chanting, let us go, let us go. Very peacefully, nothing's going on. In fact, one person stepped out of line

and everyone just kind of was like, hey, relax. I mean, it was very peaceful. I don't know how long we were there, but I was no snows with the police officer. We were, you know, chanting, you know, Black Lives Matter, hands up don't shoot. And then, hell opened up and America changed for me forever. We're being charged.

The police start pushing in pepper spraying and our only warning was move. After two pushes, I kind of stumbled back and somebody grabbed me up and pulled me to the side and all I hear is go, go, go. And then I see this kind man who's just on his porch just telling people to get into their house. You know, go in any room, just get in the house. Up upstairs downstairs, you're just getting a house. Plastic from shields screeching vapor spray. I didn't even know what it was. And I did not stop saying, get in the house, get in the house.

As this human tsunami is coming. And I'm literally, you see bodies like a wood chipper flying off. I saw someone fall on the ground and someone try to pick them up with their arm and got pepper sprayed. I saw someone get clubbed out on the head. They were running away from the police and they were spraying them in the back of the head. I got pepper sprayed on the side of the left side of me as I'm wedged in between the door and the railing and helping people that are crawling up my steps because they're getting pepper sprayed. Oh my God, they're being amazed.

And then the scene in there is just like a group of mostly younger kids, you know, pouring milk all over each other and pet, you know, tending to eye wash. Yeah, there you go. There you go. Go for it. Go for it. Yeah. There you go. Give them water. Put water water off. I mean, we couldn't see anything. There's vapor and fog like someone fumigated on the first and second floor. Nobody knew each other, which makes sense because everyone's been protesting in D.C. arriving at them in packs of one and two. This is not rally point 10,000 people called to arms.

This is we're sick and tired. Let's go grab a sign. Let's walk over there and just be with our brothers and sisters. And when I look out the window after we got away, they were waiting for us. They were pissed. We were inside. They could not get us. I'm the one that went out first, and they told me,

get back in the fucking house, or we will put you fucking down. They knew it was my house. This is, what, one hour later, after the mayhem and pepper spray has dissipated. So I went back in, I waited an hour and a half, and I came out, and I said, look, I have a situation here. I'm requesting that I talk to somebody. They said, you're not talking to anybody. I said, jokingly, should I call 911?

And they looked at me dead pen. Yes. And a couple of them started laughing. Do you know how, like, fearful that is when you have no one that you can call? I guess there were 100 people in the house. It was a strange, I don't even not to describe it. It's really chaotic. There was a kid downstairs.

He was like, oh, my God. This is like Harriet Tubman, the Underground Railroad. He started playing Kirk Franklin's Revolution. And I was like, this is weird because they're definitely still. There were cops trying to look at us through the window, but this kid has found some sort of joy in this moment. And you kind of like had to deal with like a lot of emotions. People were scared. I think the youngest in the house was 16 to 50. Different races, many genders, different disabilities as well. So I mean, it was a pretty good sample size of America in that home. Okay, let's answer the question.

If it was potential looters and rioters, okay, why is my house still still? standing. Why is the alley not burned down? Why were they asking if they could clean the place? Venmo me. Thank you, Rahul. Again, 10 hour ordeal. And being an Indian American kicked in, when you have guests in your house, they are God. And those 70 plus were my God and they protected. We made the decision that it is safest if everyone stays here the night, hunker down, make yourselves at home and let me know what you need. Because the minute you hit that street, they are going to arrest you. I want to go ahead and say something else about Rahul. I will say that he kept that house calm and we felt very safe in his home and under his leadership. And like how he was

handling the police. I was honestly super inspiring to a lot of people that we were talking to in the house because, you know, you can be afraid, but you also need to stand up for yourself and know your rights. And he was an excellent display of how to do that for a lot of us. You know, I think we tried to get a lawyer at one point into the house, and they wouldn't let him in the house, you know, to see what our rights were. So they were really walking off any resources that weren't on the internet. Everybody put all this on their Twitter. I got folks trying to send this to CNN right now. So there were a few people, me on Twitter, and then Mecca. I think he was on Instagram. There was a girl, Jenny, who went viral on YouTube.

Rahul, please talk to me. They think on the news that we broke into your house. No, you did not. Are you giving a shelter? Yeah. We're okay here? Is everybody in this house okay here? Thank you. If we were to sleep here, is that okay with you? Thank you so much. God bless you. Get on the news and tell them I said that. And you got anything to say? Because people are scared.

People were watching this live happen. via our social media. The magic that happened and the capabilities of 20, 30-year-olds and the technology that they had is the reason why we were able to get out. I did not make a single phone call

to a journalist yet. I did four interviews. They were handing me phones. A guy who was running for councilmen in Ward 2, Kishiputa, called me, and he actually messaged me on Facebook and said, I heard what's happening, what can I do?

I said, bring me food, please. So I called Dushini's directly. I recognize the guy's voice. I'm like, hey, Brother, this is Rahul DeBay. He's like, I know, because their number pops up. I go, we have a situation. He goes, I know.

I go, you don't know. He goes, no, I've been watching. I go, I need pizzas. He goes, I got you, brother. I'm like, no, you don't understand. He goes, I got you. I'm coming down the, I'll come down the alley on 14th. And I'm like, God bless you, man.

About 30 minutes before we were, the curfew was lifted. We did an interview that was televised. And there was a, I'm sorry, media crew that was right outside the door, kind of watching the house. So that came me, it gave me a little bit of comfort. Also, right before that, we had organized with Freedom Fighters, D.C. and the DC Bartenders Guild to provide escorts for people to leave the house. And we got that organized. And honestly, my mood leaving the house was just like, all right, I hope we can get home. For me, personally coming out of this was, you know, it's a wake-up call for me. And I'm an Indian American first generation here. I'm very, very,

proud of that and every minority group that's come here and we have our own troubles and our own struggles but I am very very upset with myself first and foremost and I am upset with my baller brothers and sisters from South Asia that we have been indifference we have not done anything I have to search my rolodex to find a black friend so I can talk to them about what I'm feeling after this happened it's a disgrace so what it comes out of this is that yeah it's a wake-up call But the main overarching issue is a lack of humanity. This has to do with everyone being thirsty and everyone being fed up. And I'm really, really excited that this happened.

And I'm sorry it happened. You can't change without being extreme. And I'm tired of just sitting back and listening to, I can't do that, I can't do that. So that's where I'm at. I think that there's a lot of reckoning that people who are not black are having, people are honestly trying to put a feel-good spin on it.

spend on it. And I'm really glad that Raul has been so forthcoming with making sure people recognize that this isn't a feel-good story. He sheltered people from getting abused by the police, which is the real issue that we're talking about in America. You know, the whole rise of, you know, defund the police and dismantle our systems is because they don't work for us. And like, I've grown up as a black woman in America. I've never had a trust for the police. I can't. To protect and serve whom? They're protect and serve the ideals of white privilege and white supremacy. That's what's happening.

That's what's been happening. And it's more apparent now because it's being recorded. And there's no excuse anymore because the internet exists. And the internet did this work, honestly. You wouldn't be hearing about this if people hadn't used the tools that they had at the time. I didn't have a sign. I didn't have, you know, a weapon like the, you know, the police officers. I didn't have a shield.

all I had was a phone, and that's what we used, and that we will continue to use to make change here in America. A lot of demonstrators like Allison are using their smartphones to document instances of police misconduct, and that footage is a galvanizing force in the protests themselves, a wake-up call for a lot of people now joining those protests. Part of it is the virality and pure volume of this smartphone video footage, which is where,

Predator Freeze Man 13 comes in. My name is Kirill. I live currently in Evanston, Illinois. I'm originally from Eastern Europe, a small country called Moldova. I cannot be at the protests, even though I'd like to. I am working towards getting a citizenship, and so like an arrest to look really, really bad for me right now. Even peaceful protesters get arrested for no reason all the time. as I've noticed.

So yeah, I just wanted to do something, I guess. So Kirol started compiling a list on Reddit, of all the recent videos posted or streamed online, showing acts of excessive force and misconduct by law enforcement. He categorized them by state and city. And last time we checked, there have been 376 since George Floyd's death. In the first week of working on it,

Kierel says he was putting in 12 to 15 hours a day. which takes a toll. There was one video of a teenager just standing on a hill and nobody was around him and he was just standing, not doing anything, and the police sniped his head from like more than 100 feet away. He falls to the ground, you know, like a sack of potatoes

and they just leave him there. At that point, I had to go outside at 2 a.m. Just taking an hour long walk. Get him out of you. Get him out of you. Get him out of a medic film! Jesus Christ! In other videos, medic, medic, medic here, no.

In other videos, you know, there's a lot of people. They shot in the crowd. Maybe it was an accident. Like, who knows what happened, right? But this one is just a clear example of how bad things are. Where else are you hit? Just the head? The teenager who got shot in the head with a rubber bullet is a 16-year-old.

is 16-year-old Brad Levy Ayala from Austin, Texas. According to his family, he's recovering and stable. But this was the video that made Kirill realize he couldn't do this all by himself, emotionally or time-wise, especially because he watches every video completely, making sure it meets his own standards for whether or not there's obvious misconduct actually happening. For example, say they rolled a gas canister

and the video starts at that point, then I don't know if, you know, it's past curfew, if the police have attempted several times to say the crowd must disperse. So I just, you know, consider stuff like that. Our police actions, do they seem reasonable? Kirol has teamed up with the newly formed 2020 police brutality subreddit,

which has a team of moderators and more than 100,000 members. The hope is that it can be a resource for the public, for the press, and even for prosecutors and policymakers. It is my hope that somebody in government would use this as a catalyst to create needed change. Allison is trying to make change by protesting in the streets and broadcasting those protests online. Kirol is taking that kind of broadcast when it goes viral,

and cataloging it. And then there's Reddit user The Yellow Rose, whose venue for making change is almost exclusively the internet. I can't show my real name because people try to find me all the time and do harm to me. There are tons of conversations

involving race on Reddit. These conversations run the spectrum from combating racism to celebrating identity. Black Reddit is not a monolith. We actually have a lot of differing opinions that we argue about. I'm actually mixed.

My dad is black and my mom is from the Caribbean. There are some black people in my own subreddit that don't consider me to be black, even though I grew up with the black experience in America. In Reddit parlance, the Yellow Rose is known as a supermod, someone who's extremely active and moderates a ton of different communities, at least a hundred of them. Most of my time on Reddit now is spent moderating

My main community, Black Ladies, I also just hang out there as a user. We talk about hair, we talk about makeup, talk about culture, talk about politics. I learned how to build a gaming computer on Reddit, which I still really appreciate. Yellow Rose has spent the past eight years diving down the Reddit rabbit hole, connecting with different communities, creating community. And like the communities themselves, she has also changed a lot during this time. Back when I first started on Reddit, I was not the best person. Honestly, I thought I was the shit because I was light skin.

I'm pretty. I'm mixed. And talking to people on Reddit and just seeing their stories and connecting with them, made me realize, oh, my God, I'm an asshole. I am an asshole. I come from a very privileged background. I went to a very, I went to a private, really good university. And I'm not better than anybody.

These people that didn't go to college are as smart, if not smarter than me, my life is a lie. And so I had to reevaluate my whole self and who I was. And that wouldn't have happened if I had not been exposed to so many different types of black people on Reddit. And so, yeah, Reddit, dare I say, made me a better person. help me grow up. I am a health inspector by trade. I have a flashy, I have a nice big metal badge that lets me into wherever I need to go. It's a lot of authority. And if I get arrested out at a protest, my job is gone. And because I can't go out and protest like I really want to, I've been pouring myself into Reddit,

especially the Black Lives Matter subreddit. I think at the beginning of the George Floyd stuff, we had maybe 8,000 subscribers, and I wouldn't be surprised if we passed 50,000 already, and I just didn't notice. Yeah, we're at 50,284 subscribers as of today. The bulk of the subscribers are what I would call white people that don't know anything about racial justice, and they want us to teach them, which

Black Lives Matter was never meant to be a space where we taught them everything about race and why it's important. We kind of expect people to already know a little bit before they come in, but we've had to adjust because people really just don't know. They don't understand. They want us to help them talk to their family members about racism because their family is, like, old, conservative white people are like, hey, what's this all about and asking the younger generation and they kind of know what to say and they kind of don't and they need our guidance. And so that I think the bulk of our subscribers right now are those kinds of people that are kind of getting it, but maybe not 100% there yet.

It's encouraging to me. I want us to be a place where people learn things. I can tell that a lot of these people are genuine in their questions and that there's nothing malicious behind it. It's just pure and solid ignorance on their part. And they know that and we know that. And when we both know that, it's way easier to talk about. The Yellow Rose and other Redditors we've heard from

have echoed something that's been an issue for online platforms in general, including Reddit. I have been on Reddit for eight-plus years, and we have been begging the admins to talk to us openly about race. We did get one comment from Alexis O'Hanian, and he said this is a top priority, and then never heard from him again. So, yeah, racism on Reddit is something I've been fighting

the entire time I've been on it. Earlier this month, the Yellow Rose, joined forces with a number of influential Reddit users across the platform to publish an open letter addressed to Reddit the company. It's been signed by, are we in the hundreds of other subreddits that represent millions and millions of users on the site? And it's basically listing what Reddit needs to do to combat hate speech on Reddit. So we outline six things that we want. They've already gotten to one of them. They did hire a black man to be on the board.

But number one on our list is an act of sitewide policy against racism, slurs, and hate speech. Because that's what I woke up to this morning. And that's what I've woken up to every day since George Floyd protest started. And yeah, it just, it normalizes hate when it's everywhere. I mean, the internet is just a reflection of society at large. And I think we can do better. It doesn't have to be like that. We can kind of change the narrative, I would hope.

In response to criticisms of Reddit's policies on hate speech, CEO Steve Huffman posted a letter to Reddit on June 5th. The letter said, among other things, that Reddit would update its content policy to address hate and racism. Reddit also began to reach out to moderators to create moderator councils to help inform how the company tackles the issue. Earlier this month, Reddit's co-founder Alexis O'Hanian stepped down from the company's board and asked for his seat to be filled by a black candidate. And it was by Michael Seibel, CEO of the startup accelerator Y Combinator. The Yellow Rose has watched all of this.

But as much as she cares about Reddit, she's been around long enough to know a history that involves, efforts and words that have come up short. As a user and a moderator, she says there's still work to do. If you had a message that you wanted to deliver to Steve Huffman or the other admins at Reddit, what would that message be? We need your help.

You can't shut down on us. Please don't ignore us. We're going to keep screaming for you to do something. If you want to learn more about the stories and people in today's episode, go to WBUR.org slash endless thread. Black Lives Matter. Black Lives Matter. Endless Thread is a production of WBUR, Boston's NPR station, in partnership with Reddit. Josh Swartz is our producer. Iris Adler is our executive producer.

Mix and sound design by Paul Vicus. Michael Pope is our advisor at Reddit. Editing help from our managing producer Kat Brewer. Our intern is Frank Hernandez. Additional music by Paul Vicus and Jonathan Hissla. And a special thank you to Redditor Pencilia for telling us about Kirol, aka Freesman 13's work cataloging incidents of police brutality.

Also, you can see Allison's live Twitter thread from the night she spent in Rahul's house at Ali Blaba. That's A-L-L-I-E-B-L-A-B-L-H. Also, you can find Jenny's videos from the D.C. protest and Rahul's House on Instagram, at J-L-A-A-A-A-A-Z-O. On Reddit, we are Endless underscore Thread. If you want to contribute art for an upcoming episode

or give us a story tip so we can tell it like we did today, hit us up there. You can also go to our official subreddit, endlessthread.red.org. Or you can email us at Endlessthread at W-B-U-R.org. My co-host and producer is Amory Seavertson. My co-host and senior producer is Ben Brock Johnson. I'll let myself out.

That was our episode Black Lives Matter, which we originally produced this past June. Endless thread is currently on break, but don't go anywhere. We might pop into the feed now and again with some updates and bits and bobs. And we'll be back in 2021 with an exciting new season. Stay tuned for that. And thanks for listening. At Radio Lab, we love nothing more than nerding out about science, neuroscience, chemistry. But we do also like to get into other kinds of stories, stories about policing or

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