Endless Thread - Encore: Never Gonna Give You Up

Episode Date: December 26, 2025

Who gets credit for starting a meme? Usually... nobody — they're made too quickly and organically. In the case of one of the most famous bait-and-switch memes of all time, the "Rick Roll," we may be looking at something experts call convergent evolution. Did the Rick Roll originate with a piece of code on the message board 4Chan, or with a prank call to a local sports show in Michigan? And why does the Rick Roll have such staying power? Is it codified in the DNA of the song itself? We explore the meme’s origin, the history of the song, "Never Gonna Give You Up," and its impact on both internet users during COVID-19 and on the performer himself. This episode was originally published on Oct. 08, 2021.

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Amory. Bad. Do you remember when memes were just memes? When scumbags roamed free. When scumbags were just scumbags. Scumbags were just scumbags. And cats sitting at dinner tables were just cats sitting at dinner tables. And we didn't.

know what the woman pointing at a different cat really meant. A simpler time. A simpler time. And during that time, we made a series about memes, which, you know, in this current period, seems almost quaint. Because now we're talking about brain rot. We're talking about anti-meams. AI slop. AI slop.

Woo. Yeah. But maybe you will come back with us for years. to that simpler time. Yeah, we thought for the holidays, we could all use a good old fashion brain cleanse. Maybe a little hip wiggle. Yeah, a little hip wiggle.

Yeah, yeah. A little collar popping kind of situation. Yeah, yeah. And without further ado, here's an episode about that girl pointing at the burning building. Yep. I guess she's not really pointing. She's just looking at the camera.

That's definitely what this episode is. We hope you enjoy it a lot. You won't be surprised at all. Enjoy. WBUR Podcasts, Boston. Eric should be famous, but he's not. Really. I'm Eric Helwig.

My internet persona is hot dad, and I make what I describe as emotional comedy music. Not famous. should be famous, maybe. His creative output on YouTube is impressive in its own special way. And Eric is kind of a special guy. I have these songs that are, you know, I feel like pretty heartfelt about like really stupid topics, but then I just like extremes ultimately.

But none of this, which is great, is why Eric should maybe be famous. He should maybe be famous because he may have had a role in creating something that is one of the most primordial parts of the viral internet as we know it. And when we say primordial, we mean like, without this thing, the idea of things going viral online would be fundamentally different.

And Eric was there at the beginning. We think. It's hard to tell. There are other theories of how this slice of the internet came about and who invented it. But Eric has a story, and he has a record of what happened. And the timing is intriguing. That's all he's saying.

I didn't claim to create it. I just claim that I have documented evidence of me doing it as a prank, you know, months before it became a thing, which to me felt like, obviously, a bizarre coincidence. A bizarre coincidence or the beginning of something. 15 years ago. When Eric was a bored college kid in Michigan. So, like, I'm living at home with my parents, and all my friends were, like, grades below me by that point. I don't know. We were just like a bunch of, obviously, kids and late teens and stuff, just hanging out and coming up with funny things to say and do and stuff like that.

One of those funny things to say or do for Eric and his friends at least was to make prank calls. I mean, it was kind of the classic, you know, I hate the jocks thing. And so we all just kind of grew up in that mindset. And there was this call-in show called the Post-game show. 673-6-103. You want to show your school spirit. Give a shout-outs. Whatever. it is, you're on the postgame show. Hi. Every Friday night after all the games, people would just call in and just be like, my son, Trevor did great tonight, you know, thank you, Trevor.

And then they'd say, thanks, thank you for your call. Like, just nobody said anything. They'd call in and, you know, like a bunch of girls would cheer together. You know, they'd say, go, you know, go USA. There's this school that, this consolidated school district called the Unionville Sea Boing area. and it was called USA. So that was like our original prank call was to call in and say, you know, go Soviet Union.

My brother did a call where he was complaining about a pair of khakis that he bought at Coles. It was like stuff like that. You're on the first game show. Hello, I'm a fortune teller, and I see a giant party sub in your future. Goodbye. Eric wasn't usually the prank call antagonist, though. I guess I'm too timid to do those kinds of things. kind of stuff. But one night, Eric and his buddies are at his house, and he's up. And he has this idea.

He's been listening to a song on repeat recently. As a musician himself, he's been kind of obsessed with it. I was just super fixated on that song at the time. It's like maximum 80s in a way that like a lot of things are, you know, 80s, but that is just like turgid 80s. Like it couldn't be more 80s than that. But I just, remember I had Winamp open and immediately, you know, hoisting the phone up to the speaker. If you don't know Winamp, think of it as Spotify in 2006 or something, playing music from your computer. And Eric had this one song that had been on repeat, queued up to what he thought was the key moment. So, I mean, it's going to make you understand. And then that's when, that's when it kicks

in. You're on the post game show. Boston's jams out. I'm Amory Sebertson. I'm Ben Brock Johnson, and you're listening to Endless Thread. Coming to you from WBUR, Boston's NPR station. Eric's story is either the evidence of a mild-mannered hot dad, unsung hero, chip tuning away in relative YouTube emotional comedy music obscurity, or the trickery of a pretender to the throne.

I mean, Eric is a prank caller turned emotional musical comedian. He might not be above claiming falsely to be the inventor of one of the Internet's most famous moves. And there are other origin stories. But this bait and switch move, where you expect something else and you get the booming voice of Rick Astley, became more than a local Michigan sports radio call-and-show prank. It became the Rick Roll. ubiquitous, hilarious, extremely difficult to avoid if you are, as they say, extremely online.

And Eric Helwig may be the first Rick roller of all time. Eric's version was audio only. But of course, it's now much more than that. It's a full-on meme, a classic one. Usually video edited together. You think you're watching something else. Then, bam, Rick rolled, with the original music video for Rick Astley's Never Gonna Give You Up.

And it pops up in new places and in new ways all the time. Imagine, for instance, a friend sends you an email or a text or a chat with a hyperlink to something, an invite to a birthday party, or some other thing you want to click on. You click on the link, expecting info on said birthday party, and instead, you see Rick Asley jogging his arms and singing about how he's not going to desert you. It feels almost dumb to even have to define this, like the Rick Roll crosses continents, cultures, generations. But there are people maybe somewhere in the universe who have not been Rick-rolled. Total dorks, obviously.

You don't know if I've been Rick-rolled. You've definitely been Rick-rolled. No, I haven't. I'm pretty sure you've been Rick-rolled. No, I confessed to Frank, one of our producers on this show, last week, that I discovered what the Rick-roll was, like last week. Well, I guess you're about to give it. I guess you're about to be Rick-rolled then.

There's only two types of people in this world. People who have been Rick-rolled and people who don't know they're about to be Rick-rolled. Yes. 23-year-old Newport Rhode Island resident Harrison Wrenshaw, who we're now talking to, has definitely been Rick-rolled. Even though the math suggests he was about eight years old when the Rick-roll started trending. Did you get Rick-rolled? Is that how you learned? I'm sure I got Rick-rolled and didn't understand. what it was at the time. That's definitely

your first Rickroll. You don't know that you've been Rickrolled. Right. It's a confusing, who is this, why is this man in this abandoned house singing this strange song? It was confusing more than anything, I imagine. Harrison is

also a bit of a YouTuber, albeit much younger than our supposed Rickroll inventor, Eric. I am a child of the internet, growing up with YouTube, basically. Harrison is great at going down the rabbit hole on specific topics. Like how the chorus bookends of Old Town Road by Lil Nasax are perfectly designed to convince

you to play the song again and again. But one of Harrison's biggest obsessions and one of his biggest videos ever traces the history and origins of the Rickroll. It's called The Story of the Best Mem Ever, and it includes what he calls the four key events that made the Rickroll blow up. Number one, in 2005, there was an episode. of It's Always Sunny called Charlie Has Cancer. And in that song, never going to give you up plays.

And the song grew online because of it. Number two, in 2006, a Michigan man named Eric Helwig called onto his local radio station, and it was like a sports talk show. That one we know already. And so number three, in 2006, the creator of the internet forum 4chan, Christopher Poole, who is also known as moot, created a word filter that replaced the word egg with the word duck. This 4chan word filter thing was a silly joke with what in retrospect has been a huge impact. Basically, people were talking about egg rolls, and somebody modified the way language

appeared on the site to replace the word egg with the word duck. Just a curious little silly piece of software. After the word filter was made, someone made an image of a duck on wheels. And then that image became like a popular gag on the site. People would do the whole hyperlink bait and switch where, oh, you think you're going to click something super interesting, but then you just get the picture of the duck roll. Aha.

So there was a roll before the Rick roll, and that was the duck roll. That was the duck roll. Wow. And so the final sort of piecing together, the perfect storm, in March of 2007, with the first trailer for Grand Theft Auto 4 being released, there was so much traffic on the site that it crashed. And someone on 4chan used that same method of the duck roll by saying, oh, here's the link to the trailer,

but it was Rick Astley's never going to give you up. Smuggled people, sold people. Perhaps here things will be different. Now, we grant you that, At the outset, this is just weird niche internet joke stuff. But these things tend to bubble up. Grand Theft Auto 4 is one of the best-selling games of all time, 23 million copies. And if that game's popularity gets turned into a bait-and-switch joke online by a bunch of people searching for the game trailer,

and Rick Astley is where they land, Rick Astley himself is going to have a little spike in popularity, too. 2008, that is like the year of the Rickroll. That's when it was, while it's always been a thing since its inception, whether it's had ups and downs and whatnot, but 2008 was Prime Rickrolling. And when Harrison says Prime Rick Rowling, he means like the Rickroll was basically present in every single big event of the year. There was some sort of survey that was conducted that said that 18 million Americans had been Rick-rolled.

And when you look back, at 2008. This is not surprising. Hactivist group Anonymous was blasting the song out of loudspeakers in front of the Church of Scientology. People at basketball games during March Madness were dressing up as Rick and singing in the audience. Someone made a fake video of then-presidential candidate Senator John McCain getting Rick rolled at a 2008 presidential campaign event. Senator Obama does not. And Rick himself, Rick rolled the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade. companies got in on it too. YouTube had the entire homepage do a bait and switch

with every video linking back to the video. Oh, fuck off. Oh, for goodness. And then, maybe the ultimate troll of 2008, the MTV European Music Awards had a ridiculous award that year for Best Act Ever. You two, Green Day, Britney Spears, They were all nominees, but you could also write in a candidate.

And of course, the internet delivery. So it's easy to get a sense from Harrison about how it happened 13 years ago. But why is it still happening? The video just passed a billion views on YouTube and is within the top several hundred videos of all time. For just a simple music video that was made over 30 years ago. Kids who are just kids are Rick-rolling each other all the time. Still, like in middle school Google Docs and university links to online coursework. But Rickroll was one of the top posts on Reddit practically last week.

In fact, there's a new version among the top posts almost every week. In meme years, this should basically be an antiquity, but it's still very much around. How did this granddaddy of Internet memes get such stuff? staying power. It can't just be internet chaos theory, right? There has to be more there. There's something irresistible about the song. The video, too, with its happy dude dancing his butt off in what appears to be an abandoned warehouse, church, bar thing, staring deeply into your eyes. Can you really deny him? And in this regard, Harrison is kind of like Eric. Are you a fan? Of Rick Astley? Yeah, have you become a fan?

Oh, that's an incredible song. That song is wonderful. I'm a huge fan of the song. Why? I mean, I'm a big 80s pop music guy anyway. I think the drama and theatrics of it, it's infectious. You want to sing along to it. It makes you feel kind of silly, but that's the charm of it at the same time.

So where did that charm come from? We'll tell you in a minute. At Radio Lab, we love nothing more than nerds. out about science, neuroscience, chemistry. But we do also like to get into other kinds of stories. Stories about policing or politics. Country music. Hockey.

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In our journey to understand not just how the Rickroll came to be, but also why it came to be. Ben and I are now talking to someone who was there when it came to be. Songwriter Mike Stock is telling us about just how good he was in the beginning as a 20-something working musician in the 1970s. I was awful. I mean, people would ask me to play songs which I should have known. I remember making a very bad attempt at something and feeling highly embarrassed. So Mike Stock realized relatively quickly that he might not make it as a performing musician, but he was actually a good songwriter. So he started a business with a few of his favorite collaborators, Matt Aiken and Pete Waterman.

They became known as Stock Aiken Waterman. And since it was the 70s, they dabbled in dance music. The genre was Boys Town. How would you define Boys Town? Well, essentially, gay-oriented, gay clubs were using the... they were normally using cheap, cheaply made records, as long as they were set at around 130 beats per minute, got the hand claps and the cowbells on them,

which used to set off the sound to lights in all the clubs, so that made it more exciting. And there was a thing called Northern Seoul, which came from north of England, which the same thing, people were starting to dance. I mean, one of the songs, the opening lines, one of our number one songs in the UK by Mel and Kim is it's our occupation. We're a dancing nation.

And that's what I thought we were aiming at. Stockake and Waterman were getting work in the Boys Town genre. But they weren't getting it on the radio yet, really. The way to popularity and more work with more artists was to have one of your records go big in the dance clubs. Which started happening with Stock and his partners in the early 1980s, starting with a band called Dead Irons. alive. And then they were off to the races, right? Straight to the top from there on out?

Well, obviously having your first number one was a great, yeah, that was a big thrill. But the main thing that happened was that the phones stopped ringing. There are a lot of ways to explain this, but Mike kind of boils it down to one theory. More underground artists they'd been working with thought they'd gone fully mainstream. And the mainstream thought, all they can do is that dastardly high-energy gay music. Or, you know, that's the way it is. So, the recently supposedly wildly successful songwriting trio, Stock Aiken Waterman, got a little concerned. There's me, Matt and Pete, sitting in our studio saying, well, what we're going to do next?

We're number one. Well, let's invent something. Let's do something now. What they did is start to work with unknowns. Backup singers and a kid who had just started interning at their working studio, apprenticing. Was it a fellowship? Mike had a specific phrase. Tea boy.

He got my sandwiches. You know, I know he doesn't like that. A tea boy? Yeah, we were waiting for the opportunity to work with it. So Pete, oh, I do not know what that is. Sorry. Two nations separated by a common tongue. That's us, is it?

The kid was from Northern England. He was a kid still, just a teenager, and he looked way younger than he even was. like a minimum of five years younger. Mike's songwriting partner Pete had seen the kid perform in a band. Didn't like the band, liked the kid. Invited him down to be a studio assistant. And one day, they said,

hey, let's give the T-boy a chance at doing a song. They were planning on having him just do a cover of Ain't Too Proud to Begg. But then, the T-boy, whose name was Rick, stepped up to the musical plate. I got him on the mic and started to listen to what I, what he was and who he was. I thought, this guy's too good for this. I was absolutely amazed. I mean, the voice that came out of him didn't sort of match his look. Yeah. And it is a strong, powerful voice he's got. It is a little hard to overstate this incongruence. If you have been Rick rolled, you know what we're talking about.

Whatever you think the owner of this voice looks like. He doesn't. He looks like a spelled 14. year old still wet behind the ears. So the voice, which is already kind of magic, is extra magic. At that point, I'd say to Matt and Pete, look, we should write him a song. So they did. Mike Stock

wrote the music. Waterman suggested the title. All three of them built the lyrics around the music, and they recorded it. But Rick didn't have a label to put it out. And in the interim, it got briefly sidelined by other projects, including at least one more song you had.

definitely heard before. Things got busy for the songwriting trio. Months went by. Then one day. I tell you how it worked. I came into the studio, as was my sort of routine, at 11 o'clock one morning, and one of the guys in the office, in our promotions office, was playing the song, because it'd been given to the office on a cassette or something. And I came upstairs, and I thought, bloody hell, that sounds good. I like it.

I hadn't listened to it for two months. I thought, geez, that sounds great. And he's playing it loud, this guy in the office. And as I'm coming out up the stairs, Pete Waterman's coming down the stairs, and we both stop and look at each other. We both go, blimey, what are we doing with this record? Why haven't we got this thing out?

So that was the kicker for us. We suddenly heard it, as it were, out of the blue, without being deeply involved with it. If you were to identify the key distinctive, genetic code of the song, like the thing that makes the song, what is the thing? Well, I mean, in a simple sense,

the sentiment is understandable. We always made the vocals proud, proud of the track, you know, loud enough to hear every single word. But on a musical level, because the chorus, we're in D, but the chorus goes into G, and if you were to play these chords now on the piano

you'll get the gist of it you hold the chord g and then you hold the base of g but you move the triad up a tone to a so you get that tension and that creates a real for me I love it, it's a musical tension that you have to resolve somehow in our case by going to the f sharp minor

and then to the b minor and then we will resolve the second time round not to the b minor but to the d major So it's a structure of course, which incidentally, subsequent was writing it, I have heard on half a dozen hit songs. It may be true that Never Going to Give You Up does have a particular formula that makes it work musically. Or that the surprising nature of Astley's voice, coupled with his baby face in the mid-1980s, has given the song mysterious properties that have kept it in the ether this long, loved by people like Eric and Harrison

who were born full decades after the song was a hit. The music video definitely has something to do with it. Rick's casual shimmying seemingly made up on the spot, the weird empty warehouse he's in, the outfits, double-breasted jacket over a small collared sweater, trench coat, black jeans, black turtleneck, a full-on Canadian tuxedo.

But the singer himself, even with the number one hit in the U.S. of A, did not stick around at the top. Here's Rick Roll YouTube historian Harrison again. So this is where it gets a little strange. Rick would make or he would sell millions of records. He had a Grammy nomination. He collabed with Ellen John.

And he was like rich and famous by 24. But then around that time, or a little bit after, he got really sick of the industry. and didn't want all the fame. Everything was sort of too much for him. He was having this existential crisis. He wanted to raise his family, and so he called it quits. The never going to give you up guy gave it up.

He seems to have been the rarest of rarities, a purposeful one-hit wonder. Lies. He had more than one hit. Okay, two-hit wonder. Still, he made his mark, and then he kind of tapped out. And the rest is internet history, or rather music history, which eventually became internet history, because of a kid doing prank calls in Michigan.

Or a bunch of shit posters on 4chan. Or an episode of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia? Or all of these things? It reminds me of this thing in evolution called Convergent Evolution. This guy gets it. He's part of our meme chorus. Remember our meme course? Ah. My name is Don Caldwell. I'm the editor-in-law. chief of Know Your Meme, which is the world's largest internet culture encyclopedia and database.

Don has looked really closely at the origin of the Rickroll meme since its inception, which is how he got the convergent evolution thing in his head. They're like these green tree snakes, for example, around the world. They aren't related to each other at all, but they look like the exact same animal. They got the same characteristics. They same coloration, same like morphology. It's just a just really interesting to me that that might have happened here with the Rickroll. It might have evolved independently twice. It might have been born two separate times without being connected to each other, which is just wild. The song is just that good. It's just that special. That's right. It really is. Don says there's something extra special about this granddaddy meme. It connects back to

Eric Helwig's prank call in Michigan. He says the Rick Roll is really the first truly mainstream version of this specific genre of meme. A bait and switch, you know, tricking someone into clicking a link or viewing something that they didn't intend to is a characteristic that is just a winner when it comes to memes. And we've seen it time and time again. It's probably one of the most tried and true types of memes that continue to appear every year. It's not just the bait and switch, though. It's what you're getting when the switch happens, which Harrison-trial.

I think the thing that makes it so universal and beloved is that it's very, very harmless. It's something that is purely fun. Nobody ever gets hurt. It's a prank, but it's not a mean prank. Really? I completely agree. That's what I'm getting at. Is that nobody, I don't think, has ever had extreme amounts of malice, Rick rolling somebody. It's always from love. Right, or felt it getting Rick rolled, right? Because it's like, oh, I'm going to pull a prank on you and make you kind of want to dance a little bit and be happy. Exactly. What a nice, beautiful thing that we can do to one another. Really, the question is, how does Rick feel about it? What does it feel like to be maybe not the butt of a joke, but the punchline?

I mean, I'll be honest, I find it difficult sometimes because I am the Rick and Rick. rolling, so that is a bit weird, if I'm honest, when I see it in print, I'll see it, whatever, and I think, yeah. Yes, we did. You know we had to. We had to get Rick. He still looks youthful. A little more craggy here and there, sure.

You might say he's grown into that voice, but he's a true gem of a guy. Even if he does have some mixed feelings about his resurgence. Yeah. It's weird that. And listen, I'm not making it into a bigger thing than it is. I'm just saying it comes up in conversation a lot in my life, obviously, and therefore it's just a bit weird, you know. What motivated you to get into music?

I'm not particularly, well, I am sort of from a musical family in a way. My mum always played the piano. I didn't actually live with my mum. My mom and dad divorced. I'm the youngest of, they had five kids, but one passed away before I was born. And my dad had a great voice, but he never did anything with it. He used to sing around, you know, the house and the streets of the little town I'm from. but I don't think that was my introduction to music at all.

My introduction to music, to be honest, if I'm going to be really flat out honest about it, was getting out of the home that I lived in. I was brought up by my dad, and I don't think my dad was a very happy camper, to be honest. And they've been through a lot, obviously losing a child is the most devastating thing. I think anybody can go through his parents,

and I think, you know, I just don't think there was a lot of sunshine, really. And I think music caught me really early where I just thought, this is a joyful place to be. And I think from that moment, that was it, really. I just wanted to, I kind of wanted to get out of the small town that I was from, but it wasn't the town. I think it was my home upbringing, if I'm really honest. I just wanted to find some light somewhere else. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Sure. One good thing about Rick's hometown, though, is that according to Rick,

Pete Waterman was dating a woman there. And on one of his visits to go see her, he ended up in a club where Rick Asley's band was playing. And as we said before, he liked what he heard. Not the band, just Rick. No, we heard it. We did hear a rumor. Maybe it's not a rumor, but we did talk to Mike. Oh, to Mike Stocky, me?

Yes, sir. Oh, wow, fantastic. And he actually described you, and his words not ours, he described you as being a T-boy in the studio. Is that accurate? It is accurate, and there's truth to that. And I ended up living at his flat. which was pretty bizarre because I'm kind of living in the boss's flat,

but I'm also making tea for dead or alive while I'm making the album that's got to spin me around on it. Rick, of course, would soon get his own hit. Did you like the song immediately? Yeah, yeah, yeah, because, and I can say that with all modesty, because I didn't write it. So I'm not saying, hey, it's a great song. And, you know, I think it sort of slips people by sometimes because of the whole internet side of what's happened with that song. I don't think sometimes people realize how great it actually is as a crafted pop song. Do you know what I mean?

And I can say that, like I say, because I didn't write it. I didn't produce it. I just sang the goddamn thing. Well, we have some good news for you, I think, which is that like a lot of the people that we have talked, and we have talked to a lot of people about the song. And some of them are people who are very much of the internet generation. They're digital natives. They're people who never would have discovered it, probably, except for the internet.

I think they agree with you. They think that the song is special beyond the sort of virality that it's found online, at least in their eyes, in the way that they're imagining it. Well, that's very nice to hear, very nice to hear. I mean, we're lucky enough now that I've sort of moved into this area, I guess, where I'm allowed to play festivals. Don't usually close one, but I get to play in the afternoon, you know, and that's, I just think I got lucky really, and I think it's a lucky turn of events. And my wife and I have sat on balconies in hotel rooms and sat on beaches with a glass of rosé and looked at a sunset and said, how did we get here? And we never stopped doing that.

What do you remember about the making of the music video? Because the music video is a big part of the ongoing internet admiration. To be honest, without the video, it wouldn't have become what it's become, if you like, in that little small pocket it's got on the internet. Because obviously that's the world that we live in and have lived in now for 20 or years is that everything is, every sort of music that you can think of is kind of visual as well. So the shooting of the video was like, I mean, it's the first video I ever did. I had no idea what was going on. So when we come to do the video, I turned up with a bag of clothes. Yes, a raincoat.

That was mine. you know, stripy t-shirt, chinos and a blazer, baby, that's me. The turtleneck, the double denim, it's all me, baby. No stylist was involved. The dance moves? All yours? Well, yeah, the dance moves. I've said this before many times.

It's actually fear. If you look at me, most of my little sort of moment through that four or five years, if you actually look at me carefully, I'm just terrified. And ironically, all these years later, that's sort of still kind of, it's right with people. It's just in that context, you know, the Rickroll thing. It's like if I was super suave and this, that, the other and looked, you know, I don't know, you know, like a sex symbol style thing in that video, it just wouldn't work. Yeah. I'm just like this 20 year old, whatever, I was 21 year old dude who looks 12 years old,

who came to a video shoot with his own clothes in a bag. Can you tell us a little bit more how you really feel about the Rickroll? role? I'm sort of detached from it and I think it's the only way to be about it. Our daughter, when it first started to kick off and things were happening and there was a thing about MTV wanted me to accept an award for some whatever. I can't know what it was. Best act ever is what it was. Which is ludicrous. And I think what they thought they, I think they thought they were being ironic and funny putting me in that category with you two and Christina Aguilera and whoever else was in that category.

So you can imagine, I said, no, thanks, I'm not coming, you can keep your award, it's okay. But the point being, our daughter, who as I say was a teenager, said, look, you do realize it hasn't really got anything to do with you. And the way she said it just hit me like a ton of bricks, but in a really great way. And that was like, it was like just sort of going, just seeing it in a different way and saying she's absolutely right. It could have been Dave Roll, Brian Roll, you know, Mary Role. you know, Mary roll, any role you like.

Somebody just chose my video and that song. It could have been anybody's. So I think from that moment, I've always just viewed it and said, you know what, anything positive towards, you know, my little world coming out of it, I'll take. And that makes sense. And I also want to say again, like, I think that one of the things that's interesting to me

is you described where you came from and looking for fundamentally a happy place to be. And I think that what's interesting about the Rickroll to me is that the Internet is a dark and toxic place many days of the week, right? Yeah. But like the Rickroll really like shines as a light in a really dark place because it is this thing that has that edge to it that the Internet has of like pulling a prank or hacking somebody or tricking somebody, etc. but the end of it is, is you singing this great song that everybody loves, you know? It's creating that joy that you talked about. Yeah.

Yeah, well, you know what? You've kind of put a good spin on the thought process of that, I guess, in the sense that when I was a kid, like you say, there was a black cloud in our house that just was. And I've been searching to kind of, you know, I'm going down metaphors now, but, you know, just get rid of it and just do so. And I kind of think as cheesy as that video is and as kind of like cheesy and naff sometimes the 80s can be and they can look, there is also, if you can just get past that kind of like, what's cool, what's not cool, then you just see it for just being fun.

Do you know what I mean? And kind of like, and I think that's, I think I've always searched for that. Thank you, Rick. Thank you so much. It's been, it's been lovely. Thank you. Pleasure. Absolute pleasure.

It might be that Rick would bristle a bit at the idea that he, like Eric, our prank caller at the beginning, has simply put, created emotional comedy music. But having his song turned into a meme has brought joy into the world in a way it never would have otherwise, right? And virality itself online at least would probably look different if not for the OG bait and switch of the Rickroll. And as Harrison puts it, I mean, I feel like, not to try to get overly pretentious about some of the dumbest jokes that you can find online, but memes are the future. Harrison means the future of communication online.

And the Rickroll is a great example. It's still morphing. In 2020, while everyone was in lockdown, a whole new generation of people started flipping the script on the meme. They started Rick rolling themselves for reaction videos. The Rick Roll rolls on. Rick Ashley, man, he's buggy and he said. Okay, brother. He's smoothed over with these dancers. That voice is all a 10.

Oh, my gosh. Maybe you were one of these people, searching in a terrible time for something funny on the internet. Or maybe you, like me, already know the Rickroll. As this part of the internet, you tip your hat to when you come across it, as a sign of respect or something. Hello, old friend. Glad you're still around to give me a chuck-relipped.

considering, you know, everything. But whatever it is, it's great. And Rick's great. And someday you can Rickroll your grandkids. Maybe. Maybe they'll Rick roll you first. You know, in this video, we're going to be reacting to Rick. Icedly.

Forgive me if I said his name wrong. Never going to give up. Never going to give you up. That's the name of this video. Never heard this video before. So without further ado, let's get into it. Next up, more Rick. Yes, we have some bonus content for you in this series already,

because we had a lot of extra conversations with meme people while we were reporting this series, and some of them were just too good not to share with you. Our first bonus episode is popping into your feed in a few days. It's a longer conversation with The Rick in Rick Roll. After that, we'll hear about a bizarro meme involving a cat eating a salad that brought a lot of people mirth online. But to the human featured in the meme, the moment was much more serious.

This could get me killed. This is not just reality, TV, drama. This is my real life. We'll tell that story and much more in the coming weeks. So stay tuned. Endless Thread is a production of WBUR in Boston. You should 100% be joining our email list if you want early tickets to events,

swag, bonus content, pictures of Amory's keyboard or my keyboard cat, do that by going to wbUR.org slash endless thread. Also, we really, really, really want to know your nomination for the best, most real, or most underrated meme. Call us 857-244-0338. Or better yet, record a voice memo and email it to Endless Thread at WBUR.org. We just might dive into the meme you tell us about, and we might use your voicemail in the show. Our meme series would be very hello, fellow kids, without the help of our meme chorus. Singer is in that chorus.

Joan Donovan is research director at the Harvard Kennedy School's Shorenstein Center. Sarah Laola teaches about digital culture and design at Coastal Carolina University. Gianluca Stringini studies online security, disinformation, and hate speech at Boston University. Amanda Brennan has the extreme. cool title of Internet Librarian. Kenyatta Cheese co-founded the website Know Your Mem and Don Caldwell is editor-in-chief. Please go find their work and benefit from their meme genius. Our series and our show is made by producers Nora Sacks and Dean Russell.

We are co-hosted by us, Ben Brock Johnson. And Amory Seaburton. This episode was edited by Maureen McMurray. Mix and sound design by Matt Reed. The music box cover of Never Gonna Give You Up is from the YouTube channel R3 Music Box. Original music for this episode that is not da-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na- or another

song you recognize came from APM music or was an original composition by Matt Reed. Special thanks to an additional production work from Josh Crane, Grace Tatter, Frank Hernandez, Kristen Torres, Sophie Kodner, and Rachel Carlson. Endless Thread is a show about the blurred lines between digital communities and the dirt pile. Yeah, we're, you know, we live on the dirt pile.

Okay, sure. If you've got an untold history or an unsolved mystery or some other wild story from the internet that you want us to tell, hit us up. Email endless thread at wb-U-R.org. See you on the dirt pile.