Endless Thread - MEMES, Bonus: A Billion Ricks

Episode Date: October 12, 2021

Last week, we explored the origin of the “Rick Roll,” a meme that evolved from Rick Astley’s 1987 hit song, “Never Gonna Give You Up.” Since the music video resurfaced as the meme in 2007, the internet has also never given up on Rick – so much so that the video recently hit a billion views on YouTube. This bonus episode dives deeper into Rick’s childhood, how he was discovered, and how he dealt with not only his fame in the late 80s, but with his more complicated identity as a meme. 

Support for endless thread comes from Mathworks, creator of MATLAB and Simulink Software, to design and develop engineered systems, accelerating the pace of discovery in engineering and science. Learn more at Mathworks.com. Support for WBUR comes from Is Business Broken, a podcast from the Mayrotra Institute at Boston University that explores questions like, why is innovation in healthcare so hard? Is ESG just greenwashing? of course, is business broken? Listen, wherever you get your podcasts. Produced by the I-Lab at WBUR, Boston. How did you hear about Rick rolling? I have a friend who's a, he lives in America. He's been there a long time now. He's a record producer and writer, and he Rick rolled me a couple of times. And I had no idea what he was doing. I just thought he's just being an idiot, right? This is Rick Astley. And in the end, I must have taken. I must have emailed him back or something and said, what are you doing?

And in the end, I just called him because I just, and he said, what, you haven't heard about this yet? And I said, what, what is this? If you are wondering, Rick Roll, what is this? Well, then it sounds like we've got to make you understand. Never going to give you up. That is the title of our most recent episode, which you've got to go back to if you want to understand what the heck we're going to be talking about in this episode, the first of the bonus installments of our meme series. That last episode traced the origins of the Rickroll,

the classic internet meme prank, which involves using a disguised link to trick somebody into watching the classic music video for the classic 1987 Rick Astley song. A few months ago, we sat down with Rick Astley for our Rick Roll episode, and it was an interesting moment for him because never going to give you up was days away from hitting one billion views on YouTube,

Which is both not bad for a song that's more than three decades old. And also, it's wild to think about one billion views on that YouTube video. By the way, no ads, at least when I see it. I know it's different for different people, but I never see ads fronting the Rickroll. Have you noticed that, Amory? Have you ever noticed that? No ads in front of Rickroll. Has that happened to you?

Yeah, you're right. It just starts. Do do, do, do, do. If you're lucky enough to not be targeted, which I am, at least, it just starts. You know, and that one billion might just be a record for a song of its age, because for comparison, I looked up Michael Jackson's thriller, Ben, the epic music video short film that is Michael Jackson's thriller. And at least at the time we're recording this,

that has about 790 million views. So a billion is quite a milestone. It is. Although Michael Jackson maybe doesn't quite hold up as well as Rick Astley these days. No. No, definitely not. So Rick was delightful, by the way. True gem, as we said in our last episode. We ended up talking to him for over an hour and much of that conversation didn't make it into our Rickroll episode. So for this endless thread bonus episode, we thought we'd bring you a little more Rick. Because we know

Your heart's been aching for more. We spoke with Rick Astley on July 21st, 2021. At that point, never going to give you up had something like 990 million views. Team Endless Thread was doing its part, watching a little Rick every day. Rick rolling our friends like it was 2008. But Rick was pretty calm for a guy

on the brink of something this big. Video calling from his garage-turned-home studio in London, And the first thing he wanted to talk about was the stuff behind us. What's nice is almost everybody has got a guitar in the background. Paul, what are you doing? You got plant pots. I got a little rack here. Okay, okay.

Okay. Paul Vicus, our engineer and composer, couldn't let that go. Understandable. So? All right, listen, if we're going to start showing off, then hang on a second. Okay, let's just get into. I mean, I want to see Rick Studio. Let's get into the beach.

B. King signed Luceale. Do you know what I mean? All right. I don't think we're going with that, Rick. After this guitar measuring contest, which is not much of a contest if you ask my P-base. Rick was ready to get into it. I am a guy called Rick Astley,

and I am 55 years old. I was born in 1966 in the north of England, and I've been kind of trying to make my life, way in music for about 30-odd years. And I'm still trying. So here we go. Rick's version of trying today isn't quite as hard as when he got his start back in the 1970s and 1980s in Lancashire County, England. He grew up in a musical family. His mom was a piano player. She could cite read and she could play classical music, but she could also sit down. And if you started singing a song from whatever musical or whatever anything, she would just play it.

It didn't matter where he started, she would just play it. His voice, that epic voice, came from his father. My dad had a great voice, but he never did anything with it. He used to sing around, you know, the house and the streets of the little town I'm from. But I don't think that was my introduction to music at all. My introduction to music, to be honest, if I'm going to be really flat out honest about it, was getting out of the home that I lived in. I was brought up by my dad.

I didn't actually live with my mom. My mom and dad divorced. I'm the youngest of, they had five kids, but one, um, pass. away before I was born. And I don't think my dad was a very happy camper, to be honest. And they've been through a lot. Obviously, losing a child is the most devastating thing. I think anybody can go through his parents.

And I think, you know, I just don't think there was a lot of sunshine, really. And I think music caught me really early where I just thought, this is a joyful place to be. Well, your voice is really unlike anything else. And did you have formal vocal training? No, obviously I was in the church choir and stuff, and I'm sure there was an element of singing with other people and singing a part. It's not like in pop and rock music where you can do a little lick here or a little this. If you do that in a choir, everyone just stands there looking at you going, what are you doing, you're doing? You know what I mean?

So I think in some ways that was probably quite an early good thing to do and made me sort of respect to other people that you're working with, that whatever they're doing has to work with what you're doing. But no, I've never really had any training now. Rick graduated from choir to a band. I started to kind of thrash away on drums whenever I could, the school drum kit and all the rest of it. Now, we went into detail about how Rick was discovered in our earlier episode, but just a quick refresher, in one of Rick's bands, he started singing.

The story is well known to any Rick Astley fan. A London music executive, Pete Waterman, came up to the north of England to see Rick's band play. It was a huge deal for a couple of kids from the sticks. They gave it their all. But Pete didn't like the band. He loved Rick's voice, though. Just to broaden that story ever so slightly, he was also dating a girl, believe it or not, from the little town that I'm from, which is one of the reasons he agreed to come up north and see the bands.

Whoa. It's because he was coming to see her as well. And she was a hairdresser. And hairdresser's was above an amazing record store that just sold Soul Records and Pete Warpment. That's how he met her. Wow. I don't want to, you know, it's not, it isn't like a Hollywood. would script or anything, but there's a little more of a nugget of a story of how that all came to be.

It's so easily Pete Walkman could have gone, I'm not coming up the M6 motorway to see some bloody rubbish bands. Not tonight. Right. Not tonight. But I do want to go and see, I would want to see Gaynor, who has the hairdressers. So, man. So Rick Astley fans, remember to write a thank you note to Gayna, the hairdresser from Lancashire

County or thereabouts. Pete told Ricky had a job waiting for him in London. It wasn't a glamorous job. I made tea for Bonanarama, which I think they have never ever forgotten, to be honest. It's gin and tonic now. If I'm getting them a drink now, believe me, it's gin and tonic. But Pete didn't want Rick's voice to go to waste. Pete had this thing about, you know, lots of people that he worked with that we should do, you know,

it's not a bad thing to do a cover. And if it shows the artist in a certain light, and we did a version of when I fall in love, which, to be honest, was an insane thing. thing to do because Nat King Cole is one of the greatest things it's ever lived. You shouldn't really go anywhere near the temptations either, but we did that as well. We did like a slowed down version. And I'm like a 20 year old kid at this point, sort of trying my best, you know. So instead of a cover, Pete had songwriters Mike Stock and Matt Aiken make something new for Rick. But they kind of, they're never going to give you up thing. They wrote that song

way before it got released. Did you like it immediately? Did you like this on immediately? Yeah. Yeah. Because it's, it's, it's. And I can say that with all modesty because I didn't write it. So I'm not saying, hey, it's a great song. And, you know, I felt really comfortable with it straight away. And it's so repetitive that never going, never going to, never going to. It's like it. And again, I just knew straight away that there was something about that tune.

And I think now when you listen back to Never Going to Give You up, it's a bit difficult because it's been around for a while. But I think it's got a quality about it, that song that is almost, I think it sort of slips people buy sometimes because of the whole internet side of what's happened with that song, I don't think sometimes people realize how great it actually is as a crafted pop song. Do you know what I mean? And I can say that, like I say, because I didn't write it. I didn't produce it. I just sang the goddamn thing. Rick told us that when the song came out, the feeling was surreal. He had no experience at being famous. He showed up to shoot the music video for never going to give you up with a bag of

his own clothes. Wait, you don't do that, Amory? That's what I do. He's got a bag of my clothes. When I shoot a music video, I guarantee you. We'll be with a bag of my own clothes. This is, of course, the music video that would years later resurface as the Rick Roll. Rick's newfound fame in the late 80s was tough on him. But it's arguable that the Rick roll, that would be tougher. Rick's thoughts on that and on hitting the big one zero-zero-zero-zero-zero-zero-zero-zero-zero-zero-zero-zero-zero-zero on YouTube in a minute.

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And hopefully make you see the world anew. Radio Lab, adventures on the edge of what we think we know. wherever you get your podcast. There is something powerful about the sound of the human voice. Beautifully produced audio has the unique power to connect and inspire. Tell your organization's story with a custom podcast from City Space Productions, the creative studio from WBUR's business partnerships team. Become a thought leader.

Recruit new talent. Reach new audiences. Whatever your goal, we can help. Discover how the magic is made at WBUR.org. creative studio. In the late 80s, Rick Astley was everywhere. By the mid-90s, he wasn't. He stopped putting out music for the most part.

He focused on his family. He grew up. But it wasn't until around 2008 that he was reunited with his smooth singing, step-touching former self. That's when Rick's friend, the one he talked about at the start of the episode, sent him a link disguised as something else, which turned out to be... Do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do.

After that initial, what the hell is this feeling familiar to all Rickroll victims, Rick's mind started going into hyperdrive. If he knows about it to the extent that he's actually doing it to me, then obviously it must have caught on. And I know it's a worldwide thing, the internet. But if you go back to that time, things did happen in different parts of the world on the internet that took forever to catch on somewhere else, if at all. You know what I mean? Yeah. What were you doing in your life around this time? Because you did. You had these huge hits in the late 80s. And then you stepped away from music for a good period of time.

But then you kind of resurged around the time that the Rickroll came about. It's kind of strange. It is really weird because it's really strange actually. Because for about, I don't know, 15 years or more or what have you, I never sang any of my old songs. I never did gigs. I didn't do anything. I didn't really make, you know, I had a dabble at making a record. But my heart wasn't in it.

And I don't think anyone else's heart was going to be in it. And it was just like, I just wasn't really interested. And it was like just seemed like a love. lifetime away. The Rick Roll rolled its way into popularity and the requests to perform to tour to travel to festivals, they started rolling in. But Rick turned him down, all of them. He wasn't interested. And then I got an offer to go to Japan. And my wife and our daughter, who was about 1415 then, just kind of cornered me in the kitchen and said, look, this, you're doing this. And I went and did the biggest karaoke I've ever done in my life. It was just amazing because that's what it felt like.

And I said to the audience, I said, strap yourselves in because we're going full on karaoke, Tokyo. This is happening right now, you know, because it's, it just felt weird. You know, I hadn't been on stage and sung those songs properly for 15 years. I'd sung them at friends' weddings for a laugh. You know what I mean? And that was it. During our interview, Rick used one word more than any other to describe his thoughts on the Rick roll. Weird, weird, weird, weird, weird, weird, weird, weird, weird, weird, weird. It's just weird. Because Rick's experience was weird, he wasn't sure whether to embrace the fame or keep his distance. He knew that at least part of the renewed appreciation for his music was ironic. But there were other people that truly loved the sudden reappearance of Rick Astley.

Rick felt appreciative of this love, even if he had mixed feelings about the meme. If I'm hand-on-heart, I'm not sure I would have played some of the festivals we've done around the world in different places. if I didn't have that song and what it's sort of become. So I'm not going to, I'm not going to, I'm not going to stand there and say, no, it's because I'm an incredible artist. You know, I'm just not going to do that. It'd be ridiculous. But the positive upside of that for me is that we do get to do the festivals.

Can you tell us a little bit more how you really feel about the Rick Roll? I'm sort of detached from it, and I think it's the only way to be about it. Our daughter, when it first started to kick off and things were happening. And there was a thing about MTV wanted me to accept an award for some whatever. I can't remember what it was. Best act ever is what it was. Yeah, which is ludicrous. And I think what they thought they, I think they thought they were being ironic and funny,

putting me in that category with you two and Christina Aguilera and whoever else was in that category. So you can imagine, I said, no, thanks. I'm not coming. You can keep your award. It's okay. So anyway, so that was, so I just wasn't doing it. But the point being, our daughter, who as I say, was a teenager,

said, look, you do realize it hasn't really got anything to do with you. And the way she said it just hit me like a ton of bricks, but in a really great way. And that was like, it was like just sort of going, just seeing it in a different way and saying she's absolutely right. It could have been Dave Roll, Brian Roll, you know, Mary Roll, any role you like. Somebody just chose my video in that song. it could have been anybody's.

So I think from that moment, I've always just viewed it and said, you know what, anything positive towards, you know, my little world coming out of it, I'll take. Anything else?

I'm just not even going to think about it. And I've tried, don't get me wrong. I know I've made money from it because it's just boosted the life of that song and all the rest of it. Of course,

it has a billion views on YouTube has to be sending me some money, right? Just think about that for a second. And I don't even mean it in regard to my thing, right? Forget this thing for a second, right? Just a billion of anything. What the hell's, you know what I mean? A billion? What? It's like I just, again, I don't mean

to be old school and like an old granddad. I'm just saying if the word billion wasn't used very often when I was 21. Billion was for like stars and stuff. Do you know what I mean? There was another word that Rick used a lot, one that not all meme subjects can relate to. Lucky. And when your music video from 1987 hits one billion views on YouTube in the year 2021, that is pretty damn lucky. Because as many people told us, as we reported this series on memes, the Rickroll isn't just a good prank. It's a good song,

one that perfectly encapsulates a specific era while also feeling timeless. You were talking earlier about how you, how if Pete Waterman hadn't been dating someone at a club where your band was playing, you might never have been discovered by Pete Waterman. I mean, and the Rickroll kind of has that feeling to it too, where it's like, what a bizarre thing to happen to kind of reboot, to yeah, to infuse this energy into your career. And I just wonder if you ever think about that.

Yeah, well, I mean, I guess I guess it's sort of, it's a bit fairy tale like really. And don't get me wrong, it's not like it, I'm not conscious. of it most of the time, do you know what I mean? But it's just a weird thing that, and listen, there have been a bunch of songs throughout musical history that sort of have a comeback, if you like, do you know what I mean? And they become something at a sporting event that everyone sings now, do you know what I mean, or whatever it is, you know. But in terms of the way that that's sort of been adopted, if you like, by the internet, it's just weird. And I always thought I was unbelievably lucky anyway. Normally, pop music, rock music, whatever, is you have to have

what is now termed as the X Factor by Simon Cowell and what have you. It's got to be something else. And I almost think my anti-X factor was the thing that made it work. And ironically, all these years later, that sort of still kind of sits right with people. It's just, in that context, you know, the Rickroll thing, it's like if I was super sort of swore, sort of swore, and this, that and the other and looked, you know, I don't know, like a sex symbol style thing in that video. It just wouldn't work. It's just, you know, it's like, I'm just like this 20-year-old, whatever I was, 21-year-old dude who looks 12 years old, who came to a video shoot with his own clothes in a bag. Thank you, Rick. We really appreciate your time. It's been, it's been

lovely. Thank you. Pleasure. Absolute pleasure. episode of Endless Thread was produced by Dean Russell. And we are a production of WBUR, Boston's NPR station. I'm Ben Brock Johnson. I'm Amory Sewardson, and we'll be back in your feed on Friday with the next full episode in our meme series. Bye! Never gonna give you up.

Okay. Never going to be... Okay, I'm hitting stop.