Endless Thread - Nick, Jess, and David

Episode Date: December 20, 2019

Three autistic Redditors talk to us about their view of the world, their view of autism, and their hopes for greater representation in society.

Support for endless thread comes from MathWorks, creator of MATLAB and Simulink Software, to design and develop engineered systems, accelerating the pace of discovery in engineering and science. Learn more at Mathworks.com. Support for WBUR comes from Is Business Broken, a podcast from the Marotra Institute at Boston University that explores questions like, why is innovation in healthcare so hard? Is ESG just greenwashing? of course, is business broken? Listen, wherever you get your podcasts. Produced by the I-Lab at WBUR Boston. Emery, obviously your favorite set of movies that include the word star in the title are every single version of the film A Star is Born? We saw this movie together. I hated it. Yeah. We love Gaga, though. So don't get a twisted. No. But no, you know the answer to this. It's Star Wars. Yes.

Always and forever. But the prequels were better, right? Now you just want me to kill you with fire. I'm just kidding. Right into the sun. I do not believe that the prequels were better, but I do want to introduce a guy from New Mexico who's probably also a Star Wars fan. If it has the word star in the title, I have seen it three times. This is Nick Bevins, or as he's called on Reddit.

Orbital colony. The metacommentary there is that being autistic, sometimes it can feel that you're apart from the society and, you know, an outside observer. Do you have any favorite space-themed science fiction? Oh, don't get me started. Okay, we won't. So let's talk about something else Nick feels strongly about. The language around autism. Nick is autistic. Which is the way that Nick wants us to say that, not a person who has autism. Can you just talk about the difference in semantics there for us?

What we currently have, as our understanding around autistic people, is a medical diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder. I disagree with that categorization. I don't agree with pathologizing an entire segment of the population, especially when there's nothing wrong when that's. segment of the population. So to me, saying person with autism would be like calling a gay man a person with homosexuality. This is not everyone's perspective, but it is eye-opening. I don't know that I've ever thought too deeply about how autistic people think about autism or even talk about it

with each other. Me neither. But we've both been thinking about this a lot more since we discovered that there's a really large constellation of communities talking about autism, on Reddit. There's autism, autistic, autism acceptance, autism translated, autism parenting, Asperger's, Asper Girls. There's also autistic pride. That last one was started by Nick. The internet in general is an amplifying tool, and it's amplifying in two aspects. One is you are reaching from just your community to across the world, but the other amplifying effect is that most autistic people are in the closet. So if you can go on Reddit and be anonymous, then there's no fear of being outed. There's no fear of repercussions in your workplace. There's no fear of repercussions

in your personal life. We set out to make an episode that looks at this conversation happening online. And the more that we talk to people for this episode, the more we got a sense of the vast spectrum of autism and autistic people, people with autism, people who are neurodiverse, however you prefer to describe it. So it's a good time for us to talk about this. Or maybe it's a good time for us to listen. I think in many ways that we autistic are the normal ones, and the rest of the people are pretty strange,

especially when it comes to the sustainability crisis, where everyone keeps saying that climate change is an existential threat and the most important issue of all. And yet, they just carry on like before. That's Time Magazine's 2019 Person of the Year. climate activist Greta Toonberg, doing a TED Talk. So today, Ben and I are going to listen. And other than us, you're only going to hear autistic voices, three of them.

People with different experiences and different perspectives. You're going to hear about their lives, how they think about autism, and how they think about the world. That's it. Today's episode, Nick, Jess, and David. I'm Ben Brock Johnson. I'm Amory Severson, and you're listening to Endless Threat. The show featuring stories found in the vast ecosystem of online communities called Reddit. We're coming to you from WBUR, Boston's NPR station.

We're not sure what causes autism. It's usually defined as a developmental disorder characterized by a range of behavioral challenges, lack of social skills, repetitive behaviors, and difficulty with speech, among others. Autism is referred to as a spectrum of these behaviors, because it manifests differently in every autistic person. Most people talk about this spectrum as a straight line, with people who can more easily function in, quote, normal society on one end and people who can't on the other. Historically, high functioning, quote unquote, autistic people were even given a separate diagnosis, Asperger's. Today, all autistic people get the same diagnosis, autism spectrum disorder.

Nick, who we've been hearing from, describes the spectrum as being less like a line and more like a circle. People exhibit certain autistic traits more than others, but those same people may exhibit other traits less. So it's not quite as linear as most people think. And Nick's participating in an ongoing debate within the autistic community online about whether autism should even be viewed as a disorder in the first place. He doesn't like the implications of that term, because he says the only thing that's disabling about autism

is the way society is set up. If 99.999% of the population was born without legs that, you know, worked, and they were in wheelchairs, and then you were born with legs at function, you would be considered disabled because the entire society would have been constructed for people who use wheelchairs. Now, Nick is speaking from his experience. There are a lot of autistic people out there who have debilitating physical, social, social, social, social. and emotional challenges. People who can't speak for themselves. Members of their families sometimes can. This is in some ways a familiar narrative. Disabled. Victims of disease.

Unable to speak for themselves. Nick wants to change this narrative. Or replace it. Replace it with something that's more inclusive to all autistic people. To Nick, being autistic isn't a disability. It's a different way of moving through the world. And that shouldn't be

considered a bad thing. I see the autistic community of the same place that the LGBT community was at in the 1960s and 70s, where if you were gay, you were diagnosed with sexual orientation disturbance. It was a medical diagnosis that was the conventional wisdom within the medical community, that because you were different, you were acting outside of societal norms, there must be something wrong with you. So, right? Right now, we're being diagnosed. I am officially diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder. We have applied behavioral therapy and cognitive behavioral therapy, which is just conversion

therapy by a different name, where we go in there and they train you to repress certain autistic traits to have you come across this, normal, whether that is avoiding eye contact, training children to maintain eye contact when there's nothing inherently correct about that behavior, where in other cultures it is considered rude to look people in the eye. So they are enforcing a cultural norm. When cultural norms get enforced things or people who are seen as abnormal get unwanted attention. Up until quite recently, actually, the common insult was to call someone gay, to call anything gay if you were insulting it. That's so gay. When I was growing up in school,

that had begun to change as we have begun to accept the LGBT community and their right to exist in society as they are. When I was going through school, we started to see the trend of people describing things as autistic. That is so autistic, you know, you're fucking autistic. I'm sorry the language there, but that is the kind of attacks we receive. We're going through a lot of the same stages that the LGBT community went through, and that's why I'm trying to emulate their success in my subreddit, R-Slas autistic Pride, because I think we are seeing a lot of the same patterns within our communities. As we've said, this is not the perspective of everyone.

But it's the focus of Nick's activism. And in a very straightforward way, he's advocating mostly for society to stop pigeonholing neurodiverse people, stop treating them as one kind of person. You know, that's why Greta Thumburg is such a, you know, game changer for us. Because before Greta,

what we've all, you know, had the experience of being compared to is Sheldon from the Big Bang Theory. You know, there is a positive aspect to that that Sheldon is a genius of geniuses, right? But he's also an egotistical, emotionless, you know, narcissistic robot, you know, who could care less about how other people feel. I realize I can go to your aunt's awful party and still spend the whole day gaming with my friends.

Sheldon, my relatives are going to want to talk to you and you're going to be sitting there playing a game. Isn't that a little rude? Oh, I got that covered. Head set. I won't hear a word the old geysers are saying. Nick wants the representation of autistic people to move beyond the Sheldon caricature and towards people like Greta Toonberg.

That's why Nick is planning to run for local office in 2021. He'd be the first openly autistic politician in New Mexico. And he hopes that's just the beginning. Seeing somebody on the national stage or international stage, a public figure who you can identify. identify with. It shatters the stigma. It shatters. It cuts through more than anything else. The stigma and the stereotypes and the self-hatred that so many of us carry around. The history of autism is complicated. The most famous pioneer of autism research was an acclaimed

Austrian doctor named Hans Asperger, who was active back in the 1930s and 1940s. It turns out Asperger was pretty cozy with the Nazis. They helped further his career, and in return, Asperger supported Nazi programs that have since been completely rejected, of course. Things like forced sterilization and even a child euthanasia program. Asperger's autism research wasn't widely adopted until the 1980s, and there's been tons of autism study in recent decades that has nothing to do with this. But Asperger's ideas became the foundation for how modern society came to understand these types of behavioral, quote, disorders. Nazi associations be damned.

And his ideas were pretty harsh in their own right. Autistic psychopath was the term he first used to identify children with autistic characteristics. And the scope of his research was narrow. He only studied, like, young white boys and he, like, you know, they were, like, extreme examples. of people who are autistic because, you know, like, that's the people who are obvious. So then, you know, when someone like me comes along, they're like, oh, no way, you're autistic, because you don't, you can do this, this, and this, and all that. This is Jess.

I'm 17. I live in Miami, Florida, and I'm autistic. According to data published by the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, four boys are diagnosed with autism for every one girl. The lead investigator from that study says the evidence for that disparity points towards diagnostic bias, suggesting that girls are underdiagnosed for autism. Jess's own experience backs this up. At first, she was told she had something called oppositional defiant disorder.

It's basically a disorder for people who like act out for the sake of acting out. I guess they thought I was doing it to be disobedience where, like, went in my head if I break a rule. I'm like, oh, just take me to Alcatraz, like, for breaking the small unimportant rule. So they were way off base. We did not find Jess on Alcatraz. We found her on the internet, where she spends a lot of time. One of my special skills is having the maximum amount of tabs open at once. I have a T-shirt, and I think it says something like my mind.

is like an internet browser. I have too many tabs open, one of them is frozen, and I have no idea where the music is coming from. That's a good shirt. There's a good chance at any given time that at least one of Jess's internet tabs is open to Reddit, specifically to one of the many Reddit communities

created by and for autistic people. We all know we're autistic, so we can talk about other stuff. Although we do talk about being autistic a lot and, you know, how life is very difficult, but, like, you get through it together. When we put out an open call on Reddit for participants in this episode, Jess responded enthusiastically. Among other things, she wrote, I like being autistic and would not, quote, cure myself if I could. Jess always knew something was up. The first day of school when they passed out the syllabus, it was like,

I'd like miss that but for life like, okay, here's the syllabus for how to talk to people and like, you know, play dates and all that. But like, you know, couldn't get the assignment from anybody to extend the metaphor. Jess started out at a Waldorf school. So she didn't need a life syllabus at first. Her school had lots of recess and non-traditional curriculum. Her differences were celebrated. It was when she moved to a traditional school in the fourth grade that she started having problems. Not with, like, the work itself, like, not to tip my own home, but I am, like, of course, a genius.

But, like, with just, like, being organized and stuff, like, my executive functioning is so bad. Homework and deadlines and a whole new group of classmates who already knew one another, that would be daunting for anyone. But they were extra challenging for Jess. Meanwhile, consults and testing were. with many different doctors, led to conflicting answers for Jess and her parents. Oppositional defiant disorder, anxiety. I think some doctors has actually been like, you know, she can't be autistic. She makes eye contact.

She can talk to people, blah, blah, blah. Finally, when Jess was 13, a doctor officially put autism on the table. But after so many misdiagnoses, her parents wanted to be absolutely sure before telling Jess. So they sent her to a renowned therapy program in Utah. to confirm the diagnosis. A few months later, Jess' parents delivered the news. I was in Utah sitting in a food court eating Panda Express. My parents were going to take me to a therapeutic boarding school,

and they were like, oh, and you're autistic. And I was like, oh, cool, that makes sense. And then I kept eating my Panda Express. I was very young. What did it feel like to be told that? It was, I mean, in the moment, I was like kind of focused on my Panda Express because like I hadn't eaten anything like that in like 10 weeks. But like yeah, it's definitely nice having the diagnosis because like, you know, not having it wouldn't mean I'm not autistic.

It just means now it's like I have a name for the stuff I go through. But like it's not all like rainbows and sunshine, but like, you know, I would still be it without the name. So might as well have a name for it. Meeting other autistic people, whether at boarding school or online, has been an important way for Jess to feel seen. The most famous autistic character I can think of is Sheldon Cooper from the Big Bang Theory. But you don't think I'm condescending, do you? Well. Oh, I'm sorry. Condescending.

I know what it means. He is a jerk. Also, what's even better, the show officially has been like, he is not. autistic, he is just whatever, but like, you know, he's very clearly like a, he's basically a caricature. And I'm just like, one, I'm not a jerk. Two, I'm not like a 30 year old white guy. And three, just like, really? Jess actually wants to correct this. She wants to write a comic book featuring characters who feel more true to her. So like the main character would be this autistic person and like, they're like a shapeshifter and they like shape shift into like, you know, a

normal human to, like, fit in, stuff like that. Jess has no shortage of ideas, but it may be a while before she's able to turn those ideas in a comic book gold. Starting this past February, she's been busy dealing with something more urgent. I started having to wear sunglasses all the time, like even at night because my eyes were just really sensitive. Jess has always been extra sensitive to sound and light, but this is next level. I had to like spend the week in my room because like I literally like I think I was wearing like my sunglasses under the covers. I just could not deal with light.

It was really bizarre. Jess's condition has improved slightly since then. She can come out of a room, but she's still having migraines. And she's not yet well enough to go to school. She was in her room when we called her and she was wearing her usual attire. Well, you know, in keeping with the latest trends I have on not. one, but two pairs of sunglasses, and then over that I wear a hoodie, and then over that I wear like a beach hat to block light from all angles. It's the latest fashion in case you didn't know.

Doctors aren't exactly sure why this is happening to Jess. They think it has something to do with the levels of antibodies in her blood. It's unclear if it's directly related to autism, but sensory sensitivity is a familiar experience for a lot of autistic people. Spending the day stuck in your room with two sets of sunglasses on might make anyone feel like a bit of a Martian. But something that makes Jess feel like a regular teenager is talking with her autistic friends. Recently, they've been talking about a new project. We wanted to do something to, like, you know, fight the fight and make our voices hurt and all that. And it's a fun thing.

At first, they thought about doing a podcast, naturally. That's the popular thing the cool kids are doing. And then we realized doing a podcast is hard. And I was like, I remember I was just like, do you want to do this? And she was like, no. And I was like, how about the blog? And she was like, yeah. And then we did the blog.

And thank you for saying that podcasts are hard. We appreciate that. Oh my God. It's ridiculous. Like with the audio and the files and the, yeah. The audio and those files will get you every time. Every time. Jess's blog is called B-A-4-A, or Buy Autistics for Autistics.

She's written about her love for internet research, common myths about autism, even that moment at Panda Express when she learned she was autistic. She's also written a poem about a birthday party she went to when she was 10. That birthday party was a time I freaked out. It's like a good example of like, you know, the sorts of meltdowns I used to have. It's kind of a traumatic memory and what is a poet to do with trauma, but turn it into a kick-ass poem. Here's a snippet of that kick-ass poem. The cool house with the zipline has a yard growing, screaming children.

My radar instruments pierce every time their shrieks past 90 decibels. A water bomb is thrown. It explodes me. Launches me up into a tree. Legs and arms and melted eyes, now lawn ornaments all alongside. Goggles, crushed cupcakes, children. I was not expecting to be hit with a bomb. Hydraulics open.

I'm sobbing now. A rich, ripe leaf is ripped right off and smeared across to smear my soddings. Class acquaintances and parents dodge the snoddy spectacle dropped underneath. Dad arrives, calls out to me. Fall out of the tree. I'll catch you in your towel. Still dry. I fall.

The towel scrapes me up a bit. Taliburn. Nothing too bad. No worse than my. Diagnosis, heartbreak. Home now. Gorilla glue. Vines, boxes, boxes, boxes and boxes of books, sand, string. The next few hours are busy. I spend them using my box of goods, congealing all of my parts altogether. Jess says she knows she'll continue to face challenges throughout her life. But she's another person who has started to speak out about it. because if there is a statement we can make that is true for both Nick the activist and Jess the poet, it might be how they want to be seen. I want people to know I'm autistic, but also I don't want to be like, oh, you're the autistic person. I want to be like, oh, you're a person and you're autistic, but like you're a person and just sort of not have it be like a huge deal. And like, you know, online unless I bring it up, it's not a huge deal.

Jess, thank you so much for your time and for talking to us. And I really look forward to reading your comic book about autistic superheroes. Dang, now I have like an obligation to do it. Why? Yeah. First draft is do whenever. Yeah, we won't make you make a podcast, but we would like to read that comic book. Oh, good.

Here I was thinking you guys were heartless, but you know, you're not making me do a podcast. Yeah, so. Just a comic book. Just a comic book. We'll be back in a minute. At Radio Lab, we love nothing more than nerding out about science. Neuroscience, chemistry. But we do also like to get into other kinds of stories.

Stories about policing. Or politics. Country music. Hockey. Sex. Of bugs. Regardless of whether we're looking at science or not science, we bring a rigorous curiosity to get you.

you the answers. And hopefully make you see the world anew. Radio Lab, Adventures on the edge of what we think we know. Wherever you get your podcast. There is something powerful about the sound of the human voice. Beautifully produced audio has the unique power to connect and inspire. Tell your organization's story with a custom podcast from City Space Productions, the creative studio from WBUR's business partnerships team. Become a thought leader. Recruit new talent. Reach new audiences. Whatever your goal, we can help. Discover how the magic is made at WBUR.org slash creative studio. Quick heads up, there's some mention of physical abuse in this next story. There's also something our next guest references that we should define, just so it makes sense. Self-stim, which stands

for self-stimulation. It's a repeated, often physical action that is associated with some people on the autism spectrum. So we've been hearing from two people who found out that their pretty early in their lives. Now we're going to hear from someone who didn't, even though there were hints early on. I remember when I was in the fourth grade, we were playing marbles during recess. And this one kid tried taking my marble,

and I said, what are you doing? He said, I won. I said, but we were practicing. You know, we didn't say it was for keepsies. So he told me to go jump in a lake. It was really hot and humid. And jumping in a lake actually sounded quite refreshing. But I did point out that I was not aware of any lake near of a school.

I had not brought my bathing suit. And so when I went home, there was a swimming pool. So I jumped in the swimming pool, clothing and all. My mom was on the balcony waiting for me to come back. And it's never good when a parent uses your entire name. David, William, Chint, get out of that pool. So, you know, yeah, mom, okay. I'm David William Chen. I'm 59 years old. I'm a culinary arts teacher in Nevada.

I tend to have a very literal mindset. So that does create, and it still does. It still creates problems from time to time. I have problems. I still have problems with sarcasm. I wasn't diagnosed until later in life. So my parents had pretty strict expectations as to how we'd behave and what I would learn and what I would do with extracurricular activities. And if it had been up to me, I would have loved being left alone in my room. And they said, no, no, you have to join the scouts. And you have to learn how to ride a horse. And you have to take Red Cross lifeguard lessons.

And you have to learn how to play the piano. And they made me go out and participate and I hated it. But in doing this, I also learned how to interact with people. I learned how to be part of a team. I learned how to take turns. I learned how to follow the rules. And I did not enjoy the process, but I do think I'm the better for it. Back in the 60s, you did not take your kid to see the shrink.

It just was not done. So if I started trying to self-stem, for me, that was I liked shaking my head violently. And I would flap my arms a lot. And my dad would give me a warning and say, stop it. And if I didn't heed him, he'd pull off his belt and lay into me. Or my mom would pull out her yardstick and go after me. Back then, it was called tough parenting, you know, adverse behavioral conditioning. Nowadays, we might call it child abuse.

But I learned to internalize a lot of the, you know, this twitching. As you grew up and, you know, became your own person and went off to college and got a job, how did some of these challenges stay with you? were they different as you were gaining some independence? I still struggle with relationships. The time and effort to invest in a relationship or friendship is emotionally exhausting. See, I did not realize I was autistic until I self-diagnosed when I was 54, and then I got a clinical diagnosis when I was 55. But prior to that, you know, I tried hard. I tried to have friends. and to have a normal life, to, you know, to court a woman and to date and, you know, maybe get married and, you know, do the family thing with the kids.

And no matter how hard I tried, I just could not. I never had many friends. My relationships have been far and few between, usually not ending very well. And I just could not figure out what I was doing wrong. Can you talk about the most recent relationship and sort of what that experience was like and how it ended? Yeah, so I met someone online through our time, which is geared towards people who are 50 and older. And I met someone and we hit it off and she said, I really like you, but I want you to know that I was in an abusive relationship and I just want to be friends. And so let's be friends for a year.

And I said, okay, I love parameters. Parameters are great because parameters define the boundaries within which I can interact. You know, being friends for a year, I could handle that. And it was nice. And then I started noticing that when we're sitting on the sofa, she's leaning against me. And I thought, well, she's just tired because, you know, she's a friend. According to the friendship paradigm,

there's no hanky-pinky because we had a friendship agreement for a year. So then she started, you know, she would, you know, touch me and, you know, run her fingers down my arm. And at one point, she disappeared. into the bedroom and she called my name. So I went and she's lying on the bed and she was smiling at me and she had her arms out towards me and she said, can you tell what I'm thinking? And I thought, well, no. Because we had a friendship agreement. So therefore it could not be anything amorous. She must be tired. So I apologize for having intruded upon her time and I

and I left, and the next thing I know, I'm being texted that she never wants to see me again. So a friend told me that she was upset because I had rejected her and that I should apologize. And I said, I have nothing to apologize for. I did not violate the friendship agreement. And since I do have a literal mindset, I did not see her again. Did you ever try contacting her again to explain? No, she said she never wanted to see me again. But did you ever think that maybe you could explain to her the misunderstanding that happened? No, because she said she never wanted to see me again.

Plus, she also violated the friendship agreement. I had a cousin explained to me that, that, you know, that she may not actually have meant that, but that's what she said. Yeah. And so I've honored our agreement. and I also respected her wishes. And I can't be anyone other than the person I am. You said that you self-diagnosed yourself as autistic? How did you do that?

Okay, well, I'm a high school teacher. Sometimes we get special education students, and a special education student will come with an IEP, which is an individual education plan. I was given an IEP for a student who was autistic, and I thought autistic, what's autistic? So I started reading the paperwork, and then I got online to look for more information. And as I read the traits commonly associated with being autistic, I began to think, oh my God, that sounds like me.

So then I waited, I waited about a year because I didn't know what to do. Eventually, you know, a year came and went, and finally, when I got my diagnosis, it was as well as well as, a tremendous weight was lifted off me, and I thought, aha, now there's actually a neurological reason for why I am the way I am. So then I didn't feel bad about myself because, you know, I am the person I am. How did that feel? It was liberating. One of the first things, I did several things. One was I realized now why I was being, you know, so stressed out,

I was at a large school. I was at a large, I mean, we had like over 3,000 students. And so I transferred to a small rural school within the same district. And then moving away, that was a really good excuse to say, hey, I'm moving. It was nice knowing you, bye. And so I was able to end the few friendships I had. And that's also reduced a lot of stress. So I just found it very liberating.

I basically gave myself permission to be a reclusive introvert. When I'm not at work, I'm at home. And when I'm at home, I expect to be left alone. So my cell phone is off. I don't answer the door. I have a welcome mat. Well, it's not really a welcome mat. It says go away.

And, yeah, you see, you're doing the same thing that my friends have done because I'm actually being quite serious. Yes. I don't want you ringing up my doorbell or knocking on my door. But people think it's a joke. And it's not a joke. It's not a joke to me. Do you have friends?

I have colleagues that I am cordial with But no, I would not say I have friends I have people who tell me that they're my friends But I really limit my interaction with anyone When I'm off campus? When was the last time you went out to dinner with other people? Oh my Three years ago

Maybe I do go out to dinner But I go out by myself and I take my cell phone or I take a Kindle tablet and I just read. You have cats, right? I do have cats. Are you friends with your cats? Yes, yes.

And to some extent, they remind me it's like they're autistic also because they love set routines and they don't always listen. Sometimes communicating with them can be a challenge. What are their names? I have an alpha cat who's black. and his name is Buki Boy. And I have an alpha female named Chi Chi. There's another female called Uma. Chi Chi's brother is Hunter.

And then I've got a big, fat, gray tabby named Scrappy Cat. Sounds like a good crew. Yes, yes. I actually just bought a new house in April primarily to accommodate the cats. Oh, nice. Congratulations. Yes, thank you. So Thanksgiving, I spent at home by myself,

with my cats. And so I got on the Reddit and I don't mind interacting that way. Yeah. So it's a way for you to have interaction when you don't necessarily want in-person company. Yeah. So I can offer constructive advice that way because at one point I was thinking about forming an autism support group for this area. And then I realized, oh my gosh, people are going to be calling me for all sorts of things. And I didn't want that. It was, it seemed too, intrusive. Yeah, that's fair. Are there things that you appreciate about being autistic? Oh, yes, absolutely. I have a very narrow focus. I'm very project-oriented. In fact, that's one useful thing about having cats, because the cats get a little peeved if they don't get fed, and they

will tell me. So I may forget to feed myself, but I never forget to feed my cats, because they'll come and get me. I do realize, then, having learned more about autism, that A lot of us on the spectrum have a prevailing, one or more prevailing interest. And it was just a happy coincidence that I was able to leverage this into a career, you know, teaching culinary arts. It seems like being in front of a classroom full of students feels like the opposite of being at home by yourself with cats who also want to be by themselves. Yeah, you're right. And so there's a term that that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, is often used by people on the spectrum.

It's called masking. Long ago, even before I learned I was autistic, in my mind, I was modeling a teacher. I was role-playing being a teacher. When I was an elementary teacher, I was one of those odd people who would dress up in period costumes. So when I taught fourth grade the age of exploration, I would come to school dressed as a conquistador. And I had a handcrafted steel breastplate. I had $300, five-high custom-made hand-stitched lever boots and the baggy trousers and the puff sleeve doublet.

But it helps with reinforcing this persona. Figuring out how to navigate your professional life, maybe by adopting a persona as David has, that's one thing. Navigating the most wonderful socializing-filled time of the year is something else. For David, it's an opportunity to, develop another persona as a crooner. We understand that you wrote a Christmas carol? I did. So it's three verses, and it's to the tune of Deck the Halls.

So this is it. Lock the doors and dows the lights. Fala la la la la la la. Christmas chair fills me with fright. Fala la la la la la la. Stay away. You're all annoying. Marryment is horribly cloying Falal la la la la la la la la la la Nolan Miss auto makes me real nervous

Fa la la la la la la la la la la la la la la Kissing me would be a disservice Fala la la la la la la la la 80 million germs abound Fala la la la la la la la infecting me could put me in the ground Falala la la la la la la la la la la la It's not that I hate you

I'm autistic Phala la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la I need my space is vat so mystic Falala la la la la la la la la i'm happiest when left alone Falala la la la la la la laa socializing makes me grown Fa la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la Yeah Wow

Thank you. Thank you David If I could just say one other thing I am reclusive There are people on the spectrum who do want to socialize There are people in the spectrum who are actually married or who date. You know, we're all quite different,

which is why it's called the spectrum. Endless Thread is a production of WBUR, Boston's NPR station in partnership with Reddit. Josh Schwartz is our producer, and he agrees with Jess that making podcasts is hard. Sometimes it leads to No sleep. Iris Adler is our executive producer

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