Endless Thread - Recess Therapy's Julian Shapiro-Barnum is skeptical of kids becoming social media stars

Episode Date: February 9, 2024

The point of Julian Shapiro-Barnum's Recess Therapy, a video series where he interviews kids about life's bigger questions, was never to make the kids social media superstars. But that's exactly what happened when he posted a video that went mega-viral in the summer of 2022. Endless Thread host Ben Brock Johnson talks to Julian about making the internet a fun space for kids and adults, Julian's multi-parent upbringing, and the wisdom of children.

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WBUR Podcasts, Boston. Oh, man, you guys, before we get started today, I just want to say I love endless thread listeners so much, because when we dig deep into tunnel content, you dig deeper. Thank you to everyone who has written us, and there have been a lot of you about Colin Furs, the YouTuber in the UK. Will we do an episode on Colin in the future after the two tunnel episodes we recently put together? Maybe. But right now, we're going to take a little tunnel recess. Julian, it's so nice to talk to you again.

Oh, my gosh. What a pleasure to talk to you again. Meet Julian. How's New York? Fantastic, beautiful. I actually don't think I've seen the sun in four days. Oh, man. Right?

But I don't need that, actually. You don't need this son. No. Forget this sun. That's not important to me. I have my son lamp. Oh, yeah. We need those at this time of year.

I don't actually have one of those. I just have a sunny disposition. Julian is a comedian, but he's also... The host and creator of the online kids show, recess therapy. Can you define online kids show? Like, how do you think about that? Well, honestly, that isn't the most... accurate description of it because it is a show that features children that is honestly aimed at kind of

in all ages audience. But my show is one where I interview children about all sorts of interesting things. What do you think about gas prices? But kind of the main topics that I come back to are kind of problems that adults in the early 20s are dealing with and ask kids about how they can solve them and what insight they have. Do you guys talk about your feelings ever? Yeah. Of course, because it's like a friend group and we got to like share stuff. And when one of them is like having a bad time, I just hug them and make them feel comfortable. You're listening to Endless Thread. We're coming to you from WBUR, Boston's NPR station.

Today, recess therapy. Julian and I aren't old friends, but we have talked before. He came to WBUR's city space for a live event. And there Julian told me about how he started. started recess therapy during the pandemic to counteract some of the existential dread and dismay we were all feeling. When it feels like there's no hope, look to the group of people where hope springs eternal. Kids. You got to work hard and play hard.

You got to do whatever you need to do. Take every money, live your life and also chill and also have your things that you want to do too. If you haven't seen Julian's show, that is a surprise. Recess Therapy is very popular on Instagram and YouTube. The videos of kids are adorable and sometimes pretty deep. Since Julian and I last spoke, his star has risen even further. He's worked with the likes of Maya Rudolph, Olivia Rodrigo. Do you have any advice and how to search for someone that you feel that way about?

Look at everybody around you. And then what? Pick a person that looks kind. Julian has been on the red carpet of the Golden Globes. Golden Globes talking to anybody who will stop and talk to us. Has it been fun? Yeah. But I've been wanting to talk to him again about this video, which was filmed in 2022, more than a year after Julian started recess therapy. So I want to talk about at least

last I knew one of the most famous videos. The Corn Kid? The Corn Kid. Corn Kid. Is it called Corn Kid? Is that what everyone calls it? Corn Kid. He is Tarek the Corn Kid. Tarek the Corn Kid. I'll put his name in there. All right. Because he's more than just the Corn Kid. For me, I really like Cone.

And if somehow you missed the original video, you most definitely heard the song posted to TikTok a few days later by the Gregory brothers, the Auto Tune the News Guys, who Endless Thread covered actually in our meme series a few years back. They take viral videos of people and turn them into songs. It's cold. This ended up being maybe the most viewed video on the internet. that summer. It was a big moment. You had the hit of the summer.

We had the head of the summer. But Julian says this video started out with a simple concept. The funny thing was I was like going on vacation in three days and I didn't really have any idea of what I wanted to talk about. So in kind of a you know, maybe stroke of genius

or being lazy, I was asking kids what they just liked like things they just really enjoyed. But I saw a little boy holding a corn on a stick, and he was just grinning. And I was like, I got to know the story here. And then six minutes later, we had this really funny, sweet interview with him. Do you think everyone should be eating corn?

No, not everyone has to like it to be the best. Yeah. And just has to try it. Have a bake. How involved were you with how the video was edited? My editor, Will Halbert. He and I, like, we have a really, beautiful special relationship

will like hop on a call and tweak a million things and it becomes some meld of both of our creative voices but like he had sent me like a cut of it because I was literally leaving the country I was going on vacation this is a very like last minute kind of one video before I got out the door and he was like what do you think of this and I was like

oh it's amazing just completely changed the order put this part here this part here this part here I got to get on a plane and he was like got it I'll do that and then I posted it from like a Wi-Fi cafe in Madrid and like turned my phone off. But you know, I checked my phone a day and a half later and it really was everywhere, which was very exciting and surprising. At the time, how many views were you getting like on your average video? We were rarely getting under a million. Like maybe the most we'd ever gotten was like a, I think we had gotten something with like 20 million views once and that

had blown my mind. But this was like something. something else. And then the Gregory brothers made the song of it. What do you like about corn? Which then created, it gave the thing, it's a whole life of its own. Because this song became the song and then it was everywhere. I mean, this video I think has like six billion views across videos. It's like some wild number. So like the population of the earth of views.

Truly, a little less, but almost. But it wasn't just Julian who was all over the internet. Tarek, already known as the corn kid, was everywhere too. And Julian told me that he felt responsible for that. I remember getting on the phone with his mom for the very first time. She, like, had DM me, and she was like, hey, can we talk? And I was like, yes, I also need to speak with you about this. Because I felt like we needed to commiserate for a minute.

And we were both like, yeah, so, no, I've never, this is very new to both of us. I was just like, so, I was like, I don't know how to help you. Are you okay? I'm okay. Are you okay? Yeah. Because she was like, what did you do? And I was like, I didn't do this.

It's like, this never happened before. I've been doing this for years. Did she end up feeling good about it? I think it is hard to be on the internet no matter who you are, especially a parent whose child is on the internet, because the internet, as beautiful as is, it is, is a truly awful place and people will eventually, without fail, say something negative, which no parent wants their child to be exposed to. It is hard in some way to have a show that is kids on the internet. But she and I talked through it a lot. We talked about how to censor comments,

where we would turn off comments, like how to include her and loop her in and press and stuff like that. We were really careful about, like, I still don't think their last name is like connected to any. Like, they were very much like, let's be careful with how we hand. handle this moment. And she and I worked on that together. Tarika's been on the Drew Barrymore show. He's been named South Dakota's Korn Ambassador. He's been to movie premieres and on the Broadway stage to introduce Shucked the musical. He's almost a million followers on TikTok, but he hasn't forgotten the little people. I went to his eighth birthday party. That was very sweet. Did you really? I did. Yeah.

He did like a food drive. We organized and put together like bags of food to redistribute. to people. The corn kid is a true gem. He is a lovely family. He's a lovely guy, and he's more than just the corn guys. He's got depth. The colonels run deep. Any other thoughts on just kind of internet fame for kids and parents and like families? I'll say this. I think it's ironic that I put kids on the internet and I'm very critical of it. That's why what I do kind of works because I think I'm incredibly careful, or at least I really, really try to be. And like, yeah. I've had multiple parent phone calls in the past two weeks, because we've had two kind of big, big clips recently,

just like talking about it, talking through it. Like, if we had a video go Uber viral and a parent wanted me to take it down, I would take it down without asking any questions. Like, I really feel strongly about that. I've had parents say to me, like, I'm thinking about starting Instagram for my kid. And I think my response is usually, like,

if they are really excited about it, like 100%, as long as the passion and the interest is coming from the WANews going to be like on camera. On the whole, I feel like wait, like social media is complicated. It's hard for adults to navigate. I can't imagine trying to navigate it as a kid. I think as a rule, it is good to be very cautious just because people are the worst sometimes and you want to be careful with that. In a minute, more about Julian's own childhood with five parents in New York City. At Radio Lab, we love nothing more than nerding out about. science, neuroscience,

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the Creative Studio from WBUR's business partnerships team. Become a thought leader. Recruit new talent. Reach new audiences. Whatever your goal, we can help. Discover how the magic is made at WBUR.org.org slash creative studio. Tell me a little bit about how you grew up. I, you know, come from a big queer family.

I have a lot of gay parents, which is really cool. And what was cool about it was I had, like, all these adult figures who were, like, down to clown and down to hang out with me and indulge me and, like, listen to me talk. And have kind of adult conversations with me, which I really try to bring the energy that my parents brought to me into these interviews. Yeah, that seems like a clear. through line from... Can I read you something? Yes, I would love that. My mom found this little thing that she wrote about me

that is so funny. It's like one sentence. The background of this is like, I think I've always just loved talking to strangers. Like, that was a really big part of my childhood. Like, talking to people has just been in my nature since I was very young. But my mom wrote this about me.

I don't know what you'll do in life, but I hope you use your gift for connecting with people. It's truly unique. I compare you. I am your mother with Bill Clinton. Yes, the president. He seems a person who really recharges from social interactions. He thrives off them and you are the same, which is so funny that my mom. That's like a hardcore mom energy right there. I know. She loves me. But I think it speaks to just that I was a very, I was empowered to be a confident, talkative kid. And now I try to empower other kids to be talking to kids.

And my favorite thing, and if you're listening to this and you're a parent who I've said this to, really, I mean it. I love to tell parents to put their kids in improv classes. I started doing improv in the fourth grade. I recently reconnected with my childhood improv teachers, Mike and Laura, who still teach at PSA21. And they changed my life forever. and I think improv and indulging a child's desire to be funny publicly will only help them in the long run in terms of public speaking and like creativity and play. So that's a big thing I like to tell parents to do.

Can you speak more specifically about what a whole bunch of gay parents means? I have three moms and two dads. I had two moms and they were dating. They asked my dad to be a sperm donor. He has a husband, my other dad. My mom broke up when I was two and met other partners. My mom, Lauren, has had like a couple partners, but my other mom has had one consistent one,

my other mom, Sophia. So it's five consistent parents my entire life. And it's been the best thing ever. I love it. Did that ever get complicated? when you were like trying to get one of them to say yes to something that the other one said no to you no is clear who could grant permission for things but i always joke that i've asked each parent for twenty dollars i'd have a lot of money but i never did that nor would they give me 20 dollars um

no it was fun it was like weird i like until i was 11 i had to go between three houses in a week which i honestly don't remember ever being stressed about but as an adult i'm like that sounds awful but I don't think as a kid, like, it was all I know. Like, you know, when you have unique upbringing, it's not unique because it's your norm. Julian has always been proud of his queer family and his queer identity. And he has some fierce feelings about homophobic accusations when it comes to queer people not bringing positive intent to the way that they interact with kids. Those accusations get leveled at queer people often and also just generally men.

Even in just me saying what my job is, like, talking to kids, there is this, like, joke that is made over and over again about it, which I hate and is, like, uncomfortable. I think that, like, there's this long history of kids show hosts being, like, labeled as things that they are not, because I think it is, like, you know, homophobia and, like, X, Y, and Z. also I will say does come from a real place men do really awful horrible things and like I think people are right to be

I like that the pendulum is swinging in the direction of us being more careful than not careful I think it like is complicated because you lose these things like elementary school teachers like not being able to be affectionate with their students which I think is like a complicated thing

but ultimately like I said I think it is better for us to be more careful than less careful around children in terms of the like groomer homophobia homophobia discourse about this stuff that that's what upsets me so much as somebody who like comes from a queer family

like grew up going to pride parades like this community is it's not even worth talking about it's nothing but like a welcoming kind place children should be engaging in conversations about their gender, knowing about sexuality, because the thing is, like, kids are being taught what a norm is, and inherently in explaining that, they're being exposed to a type of person and a type of sexuality and gender identity. I think more information is always better. I think

there is a right way to have these conversations, and, you know, these are conversations that parents or educators should be having. I've done two episodes at Pride, which are two of my favorite episodes I've ever made. Very hard to do. I did it very carefully. The parents were sitting next to us. We were really just asking kids like about love and like why kind of like baseline love is love vibes like why it's important to, you know, celebrate anybody being able to be with each other. Why was it hard to do at pride? That part confuses me to say more about that. The backlash to those episodes was really hard to face. It was enough so that I didn't not do an episode on Pride this year because

source material. So if I post a video, people's thoughts are right there on it. You must have to moderate stuff pretty aggressively. Yeah, and the stuff I was reading, there was no world where I wanted the kids to read it. And the first two years I gave my friends the login to the account to help me delete block and monitor. And just this year, I was like, honestly,

it is not worth the trouble. That seems sad to me. Yeah, no, it's super sad. But that being said, like, you know, I'm at the beginning of my career. I hope to be able to have, or I hope to, like, continue this project and search for, like, giving kids like a platform and talking to kids about bigger, complicated issues. And social media might not always be the place that it lives. So I feel like I might wait to have those conversations until it's maybe in a little bit less

of a social media sphere. Yeah. where people won't be able to put their ideas right on the video. I guess at least on YouTube, you can turn off comments, right? Exactly. You can turn off comments on anything, but, like, you know, people share and write and, like, DM.

And, you know, in terms of safety, it just wasn't, it wasn't feeling right. What does, like, age-appropriate mean to you? I don't know. Or doesn't mean anything. To me, to me, it's, honestly, like, I think people, decide things are not age appropriate when in a lot of instances kids are like already having those conversations and thoughts and like what it does is I think age appropriate ends up stigmatizing in a lot of ways things that like should not be stigmatized kind of a benign example

is like when is it appropriate talk to kids about how bad of a state the environment is I don't know it's pretty bad they're already talking about it and asking about it. So, like, to me, there doesn't really feel like a right age because I feel like the second they're aware of it, like, that's the age. Like, yeah, you know, but then on the other hand, I love how beholden kids are to their G, PG-P-G-13 ratings. Like, kids love to not watch a PG-13 movie because they're not 13 yet. Um, it always comes up. They should do more of those for other ages. I know. I want more movie ratings. Like, I want to be able to, I want to watch a PG-24 movie.

Totally. I'm not ready for PG-25. As I recall, you really, you started this essentially during the pandemic, right? And it was born a little bit out of that crisis. You're several years in now, and you've sort of like, this has become your vocation. but I wonder how you think about, for lack of a better term, like spiritual nourishment that comes from children and like what you have learned from children

about nourishing your spirit if that makes any sense as a phrase. No, totally. I mean, I think I could honestly, and I was thinking about this a lot the other day, take my own advice or take the kids advice, like a lot more than I do. because other people do and tell me about it, and it sounds great. But I have a therapist personally, and my therapist and I talk a lot about what the kids say.

Do you really? Yeah, we do. Well, I like, I fill him in. I think he's a fan of the show. I've been seeing him since before I've started the show. But, like, I try to take a step back sometimes and, like, really listen to the things that I'm being told. And that's hard to do. I feel like we spend a lot of our time thinking of trying to try.

children as like humans in training or like humans that need to be trained. And I think that way all the time. And also like when I'm more sort of like honest and at peace with myself, more often I am like I must learn from this child. I think that's the way it should be. It's the opposite. I really do. I really do. Like I said, like society is the issue. We, we are born. kind of perfect. And I do feel that way a little bit. I do. Julian, thank you so much for spending some more time with me.

Oh, it was such a pleasure. Thank you for, I love being interviewed by you. It's so good. Endless Thread is a production of WBUR in Boston. If you want early tickets to events like the one I did with Julian, if you want swag, bonus content, you can find it all at WBUR.org. This episode was produced by Grace Tatter, and hosted by me, Ben Brock Johnson,

mix and sound design by Emily Jankowski and Paul Vikis. The rest of our team is Samata Joshi, Matt Reed, Dean Russell, and Amory Severson. And by the way, do yourself a favor if you're looking for some joy. Check out Recess Therapy on TikTok, on Instagram, on YouTube. It'll brighten your day. All right. See you next week.