Endless Thread - The Journeys of Two Russian Anti-War YouTubers

Episode Date: February 17, 2023

This week, Endless Thread spends time talking with two young Russian YouTubers who've had to contend with Russia's crackdown on wartime dissent. Natasha and Zack initially gained traction on YouTube for their videos about Russian food, culture, and daily life. Their slice-of-life vlogs were a huge hit, getting millions of views with each upload. But when Russia invaded Ukraine one year ago, both Zack and Natasha had to make tough decisions to stand by their values — which ultimately altered the course of their lives. Credits: This episode was written and produced by Megan Cattel. Mixing and sound design by Matt Reed. Megan Cattel and Ben Brock Johnson are the co-hosts.

Support for endless thread comes from Mathworks, creator of MATLAB and Simulink Software, to design and develop engineered systems, accelerating the pace of discovery in engineering and science. Learn more at Mathworks.com. Support for WBUR comes from Is Business Broken, a podcast from the Mayrotra Institute at Boston University that explores questions like, why is innovation in healthcare so hard? Is ESG just greenwashing? And, of course, is business broken? Listen, wherever you get your podcasts. WBUR Podcasts, Boston. So, Ben. Hi.

How you doing? Pretty good, producer Megan Katel. I'm all right. All right. It's good to hear. I really want to show you this YouTube video. I love a YouTube rabbit hole. Are you ready?

I'm ready. And we'll try to find out why Russian people like to swim in the cold water when it's minus 15 degrees Celsius outside. Okay, so this is filmed by a Russian YouTuber named Natasha. Her username is Natasha's Adventures. And she's here with a fellow YouTuber named Zach, and he goes by Zach the Russian. They're both from Russia's far east, which shares a border with China and North Korea. So it's cold. It's really cold.

Okay, there's Russian. It's ready. It's freaking cold. Oh, my God. So Ben, in this video, Natasha takes us on this frozen river where the water is blessed by priests for epiphany. Okay. And on this river, there are squares cut into the ice and crosses to make these openings so people can jump in for a second, cross themselves as they dunk up and down into the water, and they just hop out, and it's freezing. So they're trying to have an epiphany by having a shock to their system? Yeah, kind of. Maybe. Hopefully. Okay, so Ben, what do you think?

Would you ever do this? I mean, you've jumped off a clip into a swimming hole before on this podcast. Yeah, I love a good jump in the water challenge, always. What about you? Yeah, I would go for it. Okay, I love a jump in icy water, but why are we watching this video? Okay, so we're watching this video because Natasha kind of popped off during the pandemic. Her videos have over 27 million views.

Okay. During 2020 and 2021, before vaccines, and it was a hard lockdown, I spent hours on YouTube. I was on YouTube every day, all night for hours and hours at a time because there was just nothing else to do. And that was during the time when Natasha's channel popped up of my radar. Okay. You know, the algorithm recommended a video. Uh-huh. And it was a dorm tour, a dorm tour in Russia.

This is not something I would usually be interested in, but the video had a ton of views. And I said, okay, hey, why not? I'm going to click on this. Hey, guys, my name is Natasha, and I'm from Russia. A year ago, I entered a university in the city of Habarovsk. And this dorm tour starts with a little disclaimer. The picture you will see will look gloomy to you. And just to recap it to you, Ben, Natasha goes around this dorm with broken, worn-down facilities. You know, there's the stuff in the kettle, in the kitchen and the stoves aren't working.

And she makes these deadpan jokes the entire time that this looks like a Soviet, post-apocalyptic horror house. As we say, in a popular Russian meme, the picture is funny, but the situation is scary. Indeed. It's bleak. It's bleak. It's bleak. It's dark. Yeah, it's bleak.

And so this video went viral, and it got over one million views on YouTube. I was hooked. I watched a ton of Natasha's videos in Twitter. And seeing Natasha document her life in the far east of Russia, which is actually much closer to Japan than Moscow, was eye-opening and comforting. Why was it comforting? It was comforting because life in a small town, just no matter what country you come from, it's all pretty much the same. It's kind of nice to see the slice of life stuff. Okay.

But it was also eye-opening because she talks a lot about cultural differences in this fun, wholesome way. Like in this video titled, Why Russians Don't Smile? And it takes a lot of inspiration from Natasha's experience as an exchange student at the University of Minnesota in 2019. And the first thing that was astonishing is that people were smiling to me. I remember how a bus driver smiled to me when I was going into the bus. And Russian bus driver, like, they're like 100%. They never do this. Oh, and sometimes Zach made an appearance in Natasha's videos too, like this one about street food.

So, Zahar, can you first introduce yourself to? to the audience? Yeah, sure. So my Russian name is Zahar, but you can call me Zeg, more like natural American style. So I'm 19 years old. In the 1990s, Sharmour was considered an unremarkable food in the train stations and markets. But in modern Russia, it has gained particular popularity and now you can see it's literally a street food BDS.

Yeah. And just FYI, one of the memes Natasha shows in this video is a movie still from Titanic, where Jack is at the bow of the ship, looking out at the sunset, but he's embracing a kebab rap. Is it the I'm king of the world? Is it that one? No, it's the one where him and Rose are together,

falling in love. Pay me like one of your French girls. That one? No, no, they're at the bow of the ship. Oh, the bow of the ship. We're at the bow of the ship together. The sun is setting. And Rose is like, Jack, I'm flying.

That part. Oh, yes, yes, yes. But in this meme, he's hugging a kebab rap instead of rose. That's pretty good. I know. So I definitely got into these videos also after you sent them to me, Megan. And throughout 2021, Zach and Natasha uploaded videos a lot in English. And those videos were about their home country of Russia, right?

They shared kind of slice of life stuff videos about Russia's Far East, which I think is an area where, you know, Americans don't necessarily always get a peek into holidays, traditions, food. And occasionally, their friends and family members joined in, like Zach's great-grandmother. This is my great-grandma. Her name is Rosa Ivanovna. She's 82 years old. She helped my mom.

Yeah, and throughout 2021, their channels grew. And they were part of a small but popular group of Russian YouTubers who made content about their daily lives for English-speaking audiences. But then on February 24, 2022, something happened that we all No, of course, at this point. After increasing mobilization, the Russian military launched a full-scale invasion and attack on Ukraine. The war had started. I tolerated this regime for so many years.

I knew that I was going to leave, but this was like the last, the turning point. And I decided I have to win. I think like if you're like a Russian and you have an audience, it's just kind of like you have to at least say that you against it. I'm Ben Brock Johnson. And I'm Megan Cattel. And you're listening to Endless Threat. We're coming to you from WBUR, Boston's NPR station. And today, we're going to hear from Zach and Natasha about what happens when you oppose your government's actions online. And your government doesn't allow dissent. My name is Zach. I'm 20 years of Russian, from originally from the Comsumorzumorzegunamor, the Far East of Russia. My name is Natasha. I'm 20,

I am originally from a small town Spask in the eastern Russia. Now we live in Kabarovsk, also in the eastern Russia. So we have now both had the chance to talk to Zach and Natasha. And just for the record, when we did this, we went through the process of double-checking their identities to make sure they are who they say they are, Russian citizens. And we also asked them how they met each other. So basically I was looking for opportunities to go to the US as an exchange student and they found out there is a really perfect exchange program called Europe over an exchange in the US for Russians. And I was curious, is this program even real? Because it was like so great, it was so like, I don't know, like perfect opportunity.

I was thinking maybe there is something like weird about it. Maybe there is a trick about it. Yeah, it's a scam. I was thinking they're going to like sell my organs from my body once I'm in the US. So I decided to... Zach found a list of participants who were already in the U.S. doing this program. And that's how he got in touch with Natasha.

And thankfully, she was not caught up in a scam. They ended up meeting in person after she returned to Russia since their hometowns are close. Zach first got interested in YouTube because of Natasha's channel and they eventually made videos together. Both Zach and Natasha told us

that it took a bit of experimentation to find their respective styles on YouTube and to figure out what kind of videos they enjoyed making. They both said they started YouTube in part to practice their English. I was always fascinated about sharing my culture. When I was at scene, I had a lot of pen pals from different countries and I liked to tell about my country to learn about theirs. Natasha told us that she'd been posting videos on and off for a couple of years

before one of her videos got picked up by the YouTube algorithm. And that was around the time that I found her channel. It was this video tour of her remote Smeltana Spasque, and it got hundreds and thousands of views per week. Now, that video has over 3 million views. Why do you think that video did well once it got picked up or once it got surfaced by the algorithm? I noticed that for foreigners,

it's really interesting to learn about remote. areas of Russia. Many people know about Moscow in St. Petersburg, but many people say that it was thanks to me that they knew about my region, the Far East, and particularly Primorski region where I'm from. And in that particular video, I showed like children rolling skates in the main square. Also, there was the statue of Lenin, you know, the heritage of the Soviet past in the very city center. So probably the contrast between normal life and some maybe some even post-opacalyptic pictures because I film this gray Soviet apartment blocks. And I think maybe that also looks unusual for my foreign audience. I have to admit, hearing Natasha talk about her hometown

reminded me of a popular subreddit. Because there's a, There's a famous Reddit community or subreddit called A Normal Day in Russia that, like, that often, do you know about that one? Yeah, it's hilarious to see. Sometimes it's even too much, I think, exaggerating and reinforcing some stereotypes, like, I don't know, a person riding on a bear or something. Sometimes it's really fun. And I don't know where they are taking these photos from. It's just hilarious. Right.

But I think it's interesting that you're. Or like you're saying, it's sort of a contrast to that sort of stereotypical. Like, isn't Russia crazy? Aren't people who are Russians crazy and they're always doing crazy, dangerous stuff? Like, this seems like a very normal video depicting normal life in this town. I think this is what I appreciate about my work. My videos that I show people in different countries that, yeah, Russians, we definitely have some cultural differences. But still, we're all a people and that's what I want to show.

Natasha and Zach both made a lot of videos about Russian culture. People saw them as online ambassadors in a way. But before the Russian invasion of Ukraine, they also commented on politics. Both Natasha and Zach participated in the protest supporting jailed Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny. Natasha also made a video in December 2021 called Why Young Russians Don't Like the Current Government. We also have the internet and we are more broad-minded and we see how people live in different countries and we see how people should live.

She cited the country's oppressive LGBTQ laws, lack of investment and infrastructure and lack of funding for education as reasons for the government's unpopularity among Gen Zers and millennials. And yes, the TV static that you're about to hear is just an editing sound effect, Natasha, likes to use in her videos. Why we Russian people don't like our government,

because we feel unsafe and deceived. You might remember that in the weeks leading up to the war, a lot of political experts suspected a mobilization by the Russian military because they saw buildup at the Ukrainian border. But when the war broke out, Natasha and Zach in Russia were shocked. So when it happened, I thought, well, maybe it's going to be, you know, some one-day action and they're going to turn. the tanks away, go back.

But then I saw a lot of reaction from Russian, like, political activists. And maybe from this public outrage, I realized that what is going to happen, that something horrible is going to happen. And I couldn't believe my eyes, literally. Like, I just, the first post I've seen, the first news were about basically soldiers trying to hop up from the helicopters somewhere near Kiev. And I was like, no way. It just, I was thinking, I was thinking maybe I'm actually just sleeping because maybe that's a nightmare.

I'm in a very weird position because whatever I say, it's nothing compared to what Ukrainians now are experiencing. After Zach saw the news, he got up, went out, and went out, and we were. withdrew all of his money from an ATM. I was expecting it to be so wars, so bad, so bad. So I was expecting, like, in the Soviet Union, they're going to arrest or hold all people's money, all people's saving. So the first hour I went to withdraw all of the, like, US dollars, especially that they got from my trip from the US.

And then I've just spent, I think, four hours just reading news about the war, every post, every video about bombing cities, and, like, I felt, like, really in pain, reading this. This was around the time Zach's friends, many of whom he met well on that exchange program in the U.S., asked him if he was going to the anti-war protest in Moscow. Zach heard, since February 24th was a workday, protesters would gather around 7 p.m. So everyone after the war, they just go in protest. And where the protest is going to happen?

well, on Pushkin Square, because that's the main protest square in Russia for the last couple of years. So we decided to go there with my friends by Metro, but even one hour before 7 p.m., like at 6 p.m., they already blocked off the whole metro station and the whole square. And those people who were leaving Pushkin's metro station to the square, they were eventually being arrested. Zach and his friends got off the train three stops before Pushkin Square and then walked over. Eventually, they saw a crowd gather. The crowd started marching together, holding signs enchanted. But that day, there was only one slogan, no war, and we joined it, and we started to scream that slogan.

And it lasted only for about three or four minutes. And then we started to be blocking off from one side of the street by the policemen, by the Aftazaks, as basically policemen car, like big cars, to put protesters. in. And we started to be blocked from one side. We turned around and we started to be blocked from another side. So eventually we had to squeeze in a whole southern crowd into a small, narrow street of Moscow. And we were trying to get away, but at some point, they started to also block our way. Eventually, Zach and his group splintered off into all directions to outrun the police. He said he was scared that if police caught him, he would be arrested and drafted into the army.

After a few minutes, when he was by himself, an unmarked car pulled up behind him, and he was surrounded by six policemen. He had no choice but to sprint. He ran for his life, he says, literally. Just remembering that incident still gives Zach a huge rush of fear and adrenaline. Still sometimes when I'm jogging, like in the morning, I just, when I'm having low power, I'm just remembering what happened. And like, it gives me power to run.

running away from policemen in Russia. Zach knew the Russian surveillance apparatus could easily track protesters and arrest them. And the days after, he was holed up in his apartment panicking with every knock at the door. The next day, after the protests, and at some point I heard a knock knock on my door. And my roommate, he just ran into my room

and he was like, Zach, I think this is for you. Who is at the door? In a minute. At Radio Lab, we love. love nothing more than nerding out about science, neuroscience, chemistry. But, but we do also like to get into other kinds of stories, stories about policing, or politics, country music, hockey, sex, of bugs. Regardless of whether we're looking at science or not science, we bring a rigorous curiosity to get you the answers. And hopefully make you see the world anew. Radio Lab, Adventures on the Edge of what we think we know.

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Whatever your goal, we can help. Discover how the magic is made at WBUR.org slash creative studio. After participating in an anti-war protest, Zach knew of the consequences. With every knock at the door, he imagined the worst possible outcome. He could be thrown in jail or sentenced to hard labor, or they could make him disappear. In a split second, Zach thought about the options he had. He could hide under his bed or try to jump out of the window. He ultimately decided to go to his balcony and lie on the floor to hopefully evade

any police and trick them into thinking he wasn't at home. And then eventually, like, I spent maybe two minutes laying on the balcony, literally, so people wouldn't see me. And my friend just appears like another friend. And he was like, Zach, what are you doing here? One of the experience you have in Russia, if you protest against the war all the time, you just all the time paranoid. They're going to come over, that you're being looked for.

They listen to your calls. They read your SMS. So I was just really paranoid. That's one of the reasons I left. And of course, it's just not safe to speak out in Russia. When Zach left Russia, he made his way to the city of Tbilisi, Georgia. Russians don't need a visa to enter that country. So a lot of people who flee Russia go to Georgia.

And Zach was lucky he left so quickly. On March 4, 2022, the Russian government enacted two laws that closed an already narrow window for dissent and press freedom. The first law forbade anyone from calling the Russian military's actions a war or an invasion. Anyone caught protesting could be put in jail for 15 years. Independent news coverage of the war was censored. We asked Natasha about this law. When it was passed, she was in Kabarisk on the other side of the country, finishing up her college thesis in order to graduate.

Since Natasha had to stay and finish her coursework, she had to tiptoe around the law. I wanted to say some strong opinion, like I am against this war, please help Ukrainians, I mean, the refugees and just donate the money. So I wanted to do more, but Russian governments adopted some really bad stupid loss just several days after the beginning of the war. So, and the titles of that law sound hilarious, like the law against spreading misinformation of fakes about the actions of the Russian military. So Natasha was in a more restricted situation, and that meant balancing her political views with the government's laws.

When the war started, after that, I was so paranoid. I didn't know what I can't say online. should I say the word war or should I not? And in my video that they finally posted with my opinion about the war, I, as far as I remember, I explained the situation to my subscribers. I said that I cannot pronounce that word, but you know what I mean? Natasha put it to us this way. She knew she was going to leave Russia after graduating.

For one thing, like Zach told this before, she was scared in early 2022, that the Iron Curtain was going to make a return, cutting off Russia from the outside world, like during the Soviet era. She also had covertly participated in some anti-war events in Kabarisk, though they were at a much smaller scale than the protests in Moscow.

And as a YouTuber, she told us her income had been impacted by the sanctions against Russian banks. It was really scary. It was like, you know, the last, as we say in Russian, last drop of my tolerance. And I mean, I tolerated this regime for so many years. I knew that I was going to leave, but this was like the last, the turning point. And I decided I have to leave. So it's not even a question for me. And I'm going to do it anyway. Like ethically, I cannot stay

in Russia and continue to make videos, you know, about peaceful Russian life, about Russian beautiful nature, cities. I mean, I really want to do this. I still want to show the beauty, but my subscribers will not just understand it. And also I myself would feel that something is off. I just basically cannot make videos about peaceful life anymore when it's happening. It's hard to say how many Russian people are opposed to the war in Ukraine. Independently conducted surveys are hard to come In one poll, 83% of Russian citizens over the age of 60 support the war. In contrast, 79% of citizens aged 18 to 24 years old are in favor of immediate negotiations, and 56% are in favor of stopping all hostilities as soon as possible.

According to a study by three Russian research centers, this data was also republished by the Wilson Center, which is in part funded by the U.S. government. When the war first began in 2022, news outlets reported on the brain drain underway in Russia. An estimated 50 to 70,000 tech workers have already left the country. Then, when President Vladimir Putin enacted the country's first draft since World War II, some 200,000 men left Russia. At the time of this recording, over 700,000 Russian citizens have left the country in the past year because of the war. Zach is 20 years old.

As one of the men who's left, Zach may not be able to go back to his hometown or see his family for a long time. We asked him how he was adjusting to life in Georgia. He said many of his friends and other Russian YouTubers also against the war have made their way to Tbilisi, which has made things easier.

He also said locals have been welcoming. Georgian guys assume I'm Georgian and starts to speak in Georgian and I'm saying in Russian, I'm sorry, I don't understand. And they're saying, oh, where are you from? I'm saying from Russia and here you go a conversation about politics right away. And it's about, yeah, war is better. Like the taxi driver is just asking, like, what's your relationship towards the war?

And as soon as I say, I'm against the war, Putin is a war criminal. They are saying, you're my brother. So if you need any help, just call me. Like Natasha said earlier, Zach changed his YouTube channel to be less about Russian culture and more about anti-war efforts and his life in Georgia. He's made videos debunking Russian state propaganda and he's filmed the visit to a Georgian food bank helping refugees. So right now I'm kind of looking at myself like a political activist YouTuber in this way. I don't know if I'm going to be the same like for the rest of my YouTube career. but who knows.

But for now, at least there is a war, so I have to say something about it and I have to show the rest of the world that there are Russians who are against it. When we last talked to Natasha last year, she was still unsure when she'd be able to leave Russia or if she'd be able to leave it all. But then, a couple of months ago, we got word.

Natasha managed to successfully get on a flight and get to Tbilisi, Georgia, where Zach is. She said that Russian Border Patrol guards took her out of the security line for further questioning in an airport office. They asked about the American visa and her passport and to check her phone. In spring, there was a common practice for the Russian guards to check people's like phones. If you follow some anti-governmental anti-war chats or what you're writing to your friends, they always checked. So people were really scared. Yeah.

But you kind of can refuse to show your phone, but then they can say, well, then you don't board on the plane. I was ready to not board on the plane. I was ready to turn away and get to my destination. It was a little harrowing, but Natasha seems glad that she made it out of the country, even though it's her home. And she and Zach are still talking about how the country can improve in the future by being more open to diverse opinions. like those of YouTube creators who love their home and want others to see Russia and Russians like they do. But what makes me stand again in the war?

Well, basically, you know, to be honest, just my value at the human, when I see people dying, I cannot really stand out of it and say, oh, I don't care. We need different opinions in the healthy society, and I totally don't like this idea. that Russians who are against the war have to leave, I wish we all could live in our country

and being able to speak our opinion. Endless Threat is a production of WBUR in Boston. This episode was produced and co-hosted by me, Megan Cateau, and... And co-hosted by me, Ben Brat Johnson. Mix and sound design by Matt Reed. The rest of our team is Amory Severson, Quincy Walters, Dean Russell, Norrisacks,

Grace Tatter, Emily Jankowski, and Paul Vikes. Endless Thread is a show about the blurred lines between digital communities and real life. If you've got an untold history, an unsolved mystery, or a wild story about the internet that you want us to tell, hit us up. Email Endless Thread at wbUR.org. Bye. Goodbye. Goodbye.