Endless Thread - The Music Man, Part 2

Episode Date: March 22, 2024

In the second part of Endless Thread's investigation into a ubiquitous online piano academy, we dig into why some people think it's a front to recruit students to the Church of Scientology and track down the man behind the piano himself. Credits: This episode was written and produced by Grace Tatter with mixing and sound design by Emily Jankowski. Amory Sivertson and Ben Brock Johnson are the co-hosts.

Support for endless thread comes from MathWorks, creator of MATLAB and Simulink Software, to design and develop engineered systems, accelerating the pace of discovery in engineering and science. Learn more at Mathworks.com. Support for WBUR comes from Is Business Broken, a podcast from the Marotra Institute at Boston University that explores questions like, why is innovation in healthcare so hard? Is ESG just greenwashing? of course, is business broken? Listen, wherever you get your podcasts. WBUR Podcasts, Boston. Hey, this is part two of our story about Stephen Ridley, Scientologist, successful musical artist, internet scam artist. If you did not hear part one of the music man last week, you're going to want to check that out first. Okay, on with the show. Last week, an endless thread. My name is Stephen Ridley. I've been a concert pianist for more than nine years. This is the next evolution in piano education and artist development.

He would say you're going to fail at times, but eventually you'll become a professional if you just keep on. You want to know the shortcuts to learn piano fast. I created a live online piano masterclass that's completely free today. I learned nothing. It just does not sit right with me. Yeah, I spoke to Stephen. He's a little more inclined to talk to you. He didn't want to, to be honest. Can you guys see my screen?

Producer Grace Tatter is showing us a video from a musician who has built a brand that seems to be popping up everywhere across the internet these days. It's part of a trove of videos of performer Stephen Ridley, a finance guy who raged quit his day job in 2012 to become a musician. And to launch an online academy that he promises will teach you piano with a new method, unlike anything the world has ever seen. This particular Facebook video from 2018, some of it feels less musical and more messianic. What does this mean? Oh, I'm loving this already. You see the man we now recognizes Stephen Ridley

looking pretty down, going through the motions. Is this it? He's brushing his teeth. He asks some more existential questions. Is this all I'll ever be? And then we see Stephen running through the rain. He looks to straw. What's the point of all this?

What, eat, sleep, sex, repeat. Is that it? Wow. Not only is Stephen Ridley having sex every day, it is boring to him, boring like brushing his teeth and eating and sleeping. We can show up an online class for that. Is that alive? And then the screen fades to black.

Oh, and then it says, want more, want more? Scientology.org. Wow. All right, we've been on a mission to find out whether Stephen Ridley is a guy who wants to bring the world music, a guy selling piano lessons for a little too much money, or a huckster who wants to scam us all out of our cash, or into the church of Scientology. And today, we're going to find out. Let's do this. I'm Ben the Brock Johnson. I'm Amory the skeptic Sievertson.

and I'm Grace still working on getting an interview with Stephen Ridley Tatter, and you're listening to Endless Thread. We are coming to you from WBUR Boston's NPR station. Today's episode, The Music Man, Part 2. If you remember from last time, some of the posts on Reddit disparaging Ridley Academy, don't just say that the music classes are a waste of money. They make a different accusation that it's a front to recruit people to Scientology.

If you don't know any Scientologists personally, you know of some. Scientology was founded by a science fiction writer named El Ron Hubbard. And from the time he started this new religion, he emphasized fame. He established celebrity centers that are all about getting famous people to convert. The church also uses the promise of fame and success to get people in the door, like offering courses it claims can help actors, quote, make it in Hollywood. Some of Scientology's more high-profile adherents include Elizabeth Moss, John Travolta. Shut up, Battlefield Earth. And of course, Tom Cruise.

I think it's a privilege to call yourself a Scientologist, and it's something that you have to earn. Scientology has a big emphasis on self-improvement and reaching your full potential. What would life be like if all of the pain you've experienced no longer affected your abilities, emotions, and behavior? A lot of people who become Scientologists do so because of mental health counseling and self-improvement literature that the church offers. It's also plagued by controversy. There have been allegations of people, including children in the church suffering physical and verbal abuse, being isolated from their friends and families and spending lots and lots of money advancing through the different levels of Scientology. And as a result of all that spending, the Church of Science.

Scientology is one of the wealthiest religious organizations in the world. Journalists have estimated that it holds anywhere from one to four billion dollars in assets. Almost all untaxed because of its classification as a religion. The church denies all of these accounts of abuse, by the way, and has dug into its deep, deep pockets to sue plenty of naysayers. Okay, so the work, eat, sleep, sex repeat video from Stephen Ridley that Grace sat us down to watch on Facebook, confirms that Stephen Ridley identifies as a Scientologist. His business partner, Serge Ramelli, remember him, the guy who wrote a review about Ridley Academy

while working at Ridley Academy, has also posted online about Scientology. And Serge's other clients include other public Scientologists. Ridley Academy, by the way, is headquartered in Clearwater, Florida. So is the Church of Scientology. The plot continues to... I thought we were beyond that bit, but I'm kind of glad we're not. But all of this is not enough to say that the Academy is recruiting people to this controversial religion. We do know that Stephen has talked to some students about religion. Remember Jennifer Pierce, the woman from our last episode, who went through a lot of hardship in her personal life and felt like the Ridley Academy was almost an answer to her prayers?

she told us Stephen did direct her to resources from the church. I have studied a couple of books because I went to him and I asked him, you know, how are you so positive? Another student named Zach Callaghan we found in Australia also told us that Ridley Academy had reached out with materials about Scientology. There was maybe an email now that I think about it that was sent out, that was like, you know, check this out or these people have been really helpful or maybe there was even an admin person that seemed like there was a bit of that happening.

But both Zach and Jennifer told us that they never felt like they were being recruited. And I have to write a couple of the books, but I wouldn't necessarily say I'm a Scientologist. I just ignored it, to be honest. And another Ridley Academy student we found in the Netherlands, named Anna Hoffmeier, had no idea Stephen was affiliated with Scientology at all and found the idea that the Academy is a religious recruitment effort, ludicrous. Oh, that's funny. I will discuss it with him. Okay, I'm going to hop in here. Oh, hop on in, Grace, the water's fine. Come on in, please.

Because on the one hand, people share information about their religion or spiritual adjacent practices all of the time, right? I've definitely had people in my life say a prayer when I'm eating with them or tell me I just got to try transcendental meditation. and it's no big thing. But while I was briefly on the Scientology beat, I found this journalist Tony Ortega, who's covered the organization extensively. And he says Scientology is different. So we gave him a call.

I've been writing about Scientology since 1995 and daily since 2011. In 2017, Ortega broke the news about sexual assault allegations against the actor Danny Masterson. You might know him from that 70s show. he's also a prominent Scientologist. Masterson was convicted on two counts of rape in

2003, and Scientology actually came up a lot in that trial. Masterson's accusers took aim at Scientology's connections to the LAPD and broke down sobbing on the witness stand after she told jurors... Four of the woman who accused Masterson of rape are also suing the Church of Scientology itself for harassing them after they reported Masterson to the authorities. Tony told us that as he sees it, there's nothing casual about sharing materials from the Church of Scientology. Stephen Ridley is handing them a Scientology book. He knows where that leads.

And where that leads, according to Tony's reporting, is vowing total loyalty to an organization that people have not only paid a lot of money to, but have shared a lot of really personal information with because of this mental health counseling. They have this vicious retaliatory machine with the use of private investigators and lawyers. It's a totalitarian organization. But again, the students we talked to said they didn't feel any pressure from Stephen or the Academy around Scientology at all. So we can't confirm the accusations that this is just a recruitment front. Plus, all three of these students, on their three separate continents, told us that they really were happy with how the course improved their piano piano. playing. I was obsessed for pretty much I'd do a couple of hours three times a day and was really just going deep into it, learnt heaps. Because if you calculate how much you need to pay the private

teacher, for example, or school, it's much more expensive, her? We were also able to run some of Stephen's videos by a long-time piano teacher. My dad, he's taught piano for 50 years. And as we were reporting this story, he happened to be teaching my daughter the same four chords that Stephen talks about in the ad we played last episode. Exact same chords! Are you learning how to play the piano? Yes. What are you learning?

Away in the manger. And what else? Jingle bows. And they're the same chords? Yes. I showed my dad this video, where Stephen talks about why he thinks a lot of traditional piano lessons just don't work. We still have a subject mired, completely weighed down in rules and systems. It's still taught in Latin.

Nobody speaks Latin. What are we doing? I kind of expected my dad to be skeptical of Stephen, because Stephen is very skeptical of traditional music education, and my dad is a music educator. But my dad was into it. I think he's fun and terrific, and he's probably got some really good teaching concepts that I have yet to

see, of course. He wasn't totally without reservations about the claims in the video I showed him. I doubt if we can teach people to read music in two hours. We can get them started reading in two hours, certainly. But overall,

the idea that learning the piano can be fun and accessible, my dad's all about that. Okay, we have happy customers, a tentative stamp of approval pending some more information about teaching concepts from Ben's dad. But what about all the bad reviews online?

One of the most detailed critiques of Ridley Academy was published on a website called Pianoers.com, shortly after we started reporting this. It details a lot of the claims we'd seen on Reddit threads that come up prominently in Google search results for Ridley Academy, that he lacks the credentials and the expertise to charge so much for his courses. This post also speculates he's funneling money from his courses to the Church of Scientology. The author of the post identifies themselves as Catarina and says they graduated from the University of Missouri with a degree in music. And that they're a member of the National Association for Music Teachers, which doesn't seem to exist. Huh. Could be a typo. But at any rate, Catarina proved to be impossible to reach. And Grace really tried.

K-A-T-A. No, sorry, that's that. That's a first name. Grace even talked to a nice person in the registrar's office at the University of Missouri, who looked through all 68 catarinas who have graduated from that school to see if any of them matched this author's bio. Yes, with the B.A. in music. No dice. Okay.

Got it. Well, I really appreciate you taking the time. I know it was a weird ask. Despite some real gum shoe work there, Grace couldn't find endless thread an unhappy customer. So if the people who are actually paying for the product are happy with it and its critics are all anonymous, might all of these posts calling Ridley Academy a scam be their own kind of scam, trying to take down a guy doing good work? It turns out that what makes a scam might be as subjective as what makes an artist.

Yeah, I mean, I don't think Puddle of Mud is going to stay on many best of rock band lists. And at the same time, I don't know how many people recognize they do. genius of Tenacious D, who, by the way, sang about Scientology. Whether you think Puddle Mud is great or Tenacious D is great, at this point, we're thinking that judging whether or not Stephen Ridley and the Ridley Academy's advertising is great is also going to be tough. I mean, we don't have a lot of ways to measure Ridley beyond testimonials from people who took his class. But there is some objective criteria from the Federal Trade Commission. The FTC and that rhymes with Pee which stands for pool.

We got to get more music man references than that one song. And we got to get Grace to get Stephen Ridley on the phone. We'll get them, guys. Be patient. Trust me. We'll get them. Will we get them? In a minute. At Radio Lab, we love nothing more than nerding out about science, neuroscience, chemistry. But we do also like to get into other kinds of stories, stories about policing or... Politics. Country music. Hockey.

Sex. Of bugs. Regardless of whether we're looking at science or not science, we bring a rigorous curiosity to get you the answers. And hopefully make you see the world anew. Radio Lab. Adventures on the edge of what we think we know. Wherever you get your podcast.

There is something powerful about the sound of the human voice. Beautifully produced audio has the unique power to connect and inspire. Tell your organization's story with a custom podcast. podcast from City Space Productions, the Creative Studio from WBUR's business partnerships team. Become a thought leader. Recruit new talent. Reach new audiences. Whatever your goal, we can help. Discover how the magic is made at WBUR.org slash creative studio. So we've been trying to find some of the people who have criticized the Ridley Academy for being a scam and accused Stephen Ridley of trying to hoodwink people into joining the Church of Scientology.

Without much luck, even though producer Grace Tatter has tried mightily. I did. But the least we could do is take a hard look at some of the advertising practices of the Ridley Academy. And Grace did succeed in finding someone who could give us a perspective on that. I did. Hi, I'm Laura Smith, and I'm the legal director for Truth in Advertising or Tina.org for short. Truth in advertising is a non-profit consumer advocacy organization devoted to weeding out deceptive marketing and false advertising.

So basically, Laura Smith's job is to know the ins and outs of no-noes for companies advertising in the U.S. No-no as in legally is for don't do it. One thing we asked Laura about is this sense of urgency. We've seen a lot of ads for Ridley Academy and in the master class. Click on the button below and join me for this free online piano masterclass. And be fast because maybe this is the last time you ever see this ad. Dear listener, this was not the last time.

we saw this ad. But mostly the sense of urgency comes into play with the price. The idea that if you don't buy the course right now, the price is going to go up and you'll no longer be able to afford it. This is something Grace heard in both of the free masterclasses she attended. Even though if you look in an internet archive of the site, the once-in-a-lifetime discount is actually offered pretty much every week, which makes it less of a discount and more just the actual price. A false sense of urgency is a commonly used dark pattern. It's deceptive. Companies shouldn't use them, and the FTC has indicated that it will be focusing on dark patterns. A dark pattern sounds like some Harry Potter-ish, but it's more legalese. I would describe a dark pattern as a tactic designed to trick users

to take certain actions and to encourage people to act against their own best interests. We also asked Laura about some of the claims made in the ads, like that you can Learn 40 songs in an hour. It looked like from that video that Ridley is proposing to teach a handful of commonly used chords or chord progressions that are used in many songs. That's not an entire song. And so that should be made clear to consumers. Laura told us that she and the FTC put themselves in the shoes of what a, quote, reasonable consumer will understand from a claim. Something can be true, but still deceptive.

The other thing the FTC cares about is whether the results advertised are typical. So when we hear Stephen claim something like, I can teach you piano more than 150 times faster than the way I did it. I can teach you with just three minutes practice per day. Laura wonders whether they're simply the results of a few outliers or exceptionally quick learners. If it's the latter, if they're advertising the number, results of a few outliers, then advertising those atypical results is deceptive, according to the Federal Trade Commission.

Remember how the Ridley Academy Masterclass website has a section that says, as seen on, and it lists publications like Vogue and the Financial Times? And remember how we got in touch with the Financial Times, and they were like, uh, we've never covered Ridley Academy? So it is possible, and I don't know if for certain if that's the case. case here that Ridley could have taken out ads on those publications and is then using that action to be able to say that they were featured on those publications. Again, we would put ourselves in the shoes of a reasonable consumer and try to determine what message is implied when they say

they are featured on those media outlets. So the marketing of Ridley Academy is at least flirting with violating FTC guidelines. But to really understand the veracity of some of the claims, we would need to talk to Stephen himself, which has proven difficult, but not too difficult for Grace Tatter. We got them, y'all. Finally, two months after our initial interview request, our man, Sir Dramelli came through,

and Stephen agreed to talk. My name is Stephen Ridley. I am the founder of Ridley Academy. I'm a British artist, and I help other people unlock their artist, and that's what we do. Here are some undeniable things about Stephen. He's energetic. He's passionate. He loves music.

He is vigorous as hell. He is down to chat about anything. The nature of been an artist is I'll be an open book. And if you want to ask me, I'll tell you. And if you want to talk about poop, I'll tell you about it. If you want to talk about sex, I'll tell you about it. We didn't have any questions for Stephen about poop. We did want to know about his own musical education. and he told this that it was rigid, not a lot of room for playfulness or joy. My dad was a very big disciplinarian. He really forced me to work hard at school more than I wanted to.

And he was a threatening guy and a scary guy to me at that age. So I just did what he said reluctantly. And it was the same with piano. There were so many times I didn't want to play. And he was just, you know, he was the ball and chain and whip and everything. Stephen's dad died when Stephen was a teenager. And when he died, there was this vacuum of like, well, they don't have to do it anymore.

And there was no disciplinarian in the house. And finally, I can give up these boring lessons. And I did. But he didn't quit for long because he actually loved the piano. Just not all those strict rules. I just wanted to find those moments of connection. I wanted to find those moments of, you know, the... I mean, just that.

It's like, it's the best kind of therapy. And so I was doing it for me all of a sudden. I was doing it to find that and to find those moments. And I discovered in doing that, that so much of what I was learning was completely unnecessary and completely irrelevant to that experience. And for me, that's the core experience that people want to have on piano. When he talks about creating the Ridley method so more people can learn the piano, he does so with conviction.

So I'm going to play something, which sounds badass. That's really, really, really, really fun to play. And most people, when they see that, go, oh, my God, that looks so complicated. And the main point that the Ridley method is based on is just this. the illusion of complexity is created by doing many simple things at once. The Ridley method, he says, is all about distilling piano playing to its purest tenets. So anyone who wants to learn to play can. You know, there are people who have been sitting there.

We have students, this one lady, she's 92 years old. You know, all of her life, she feels like she can't learn. Imagine the explosion of energy when, like, that snap moment occurs when, oh, she has a winner. Oh, she starts to play her first song. And it's simple and she's getting it after years of failing and trying different teachers in it, not working. But that mission to create artists was hard for us to square with the price for the complete piano masterclass. Since we started reporting this, in November of last year, the listed price almost doubled from $3,000 to $5,000. Stephen kept insisting that that's just the price of doing business.

I don't want it to be $5,000. Like, I'd love it to not be $5,000. but if it wasn't, we'd be out of business. He also said that while it seems like the course is on perpetual discount, one of the legal no-noes we talked about with Laura Smith from Truth in Advertising, it's not. And I do these free classes as often as I can. And in those free classes, as often as we're able to, I'll try and make discounts and

sometimes incredible discounts. And when I do those discounts, I'm very, very clear that, hey, yo, this is a discount. So if you want to get at a cheap price, here is. is. Stephen says he knows some people find his marketing annoying. They confuse enthusiasm for pushiness. I'm I'm pushy because I know it works and if you want to do it, you should do it. But I also appreciate if you sit in there and you've had some lessons in the past that didn't work and you've tried other stuff that didn't work and you went on YouTube and wasted hundreds of hours of your life watching lights going down a screen, then probably this guy jumping all over

the screen might be full of crap. But basically Stephen said, look, the marketing, It works. It's not to sound blasé, but I stick with what works, and it's a foundational principle of this school. Like, I just, I will take something that works and I will drop stuff that doesn't work. And right now, I have more people trying to come every single week to a free class than I can deliver by a dramatic proportion. We asked about some of the other things that stuck out to us about the Ridley Academy website, like the similarities to the master class website. You know, where the A-list celebrities teach you how to do this. things. I mean, to be honest, it's a massive compliment if you tell me that this is, if,

if you think that's my inspiration, I'm going to say yes. And that list of fancy publications listed on the site? We noticed that on the website, your masterclass course, um, was sort of listed as being featured in a bunch of publications like CNN, Vogue, Marie Claire, Financial Times, um, but me, Stephen Ridley has been featured in those places. Basically, he was like, the Ridley Academy wasn't featured in those publications. I was. but not necessarily the English language versions. So I was randomly famous in Russia, and when every great story starts.

Stephen says he's been in Vogue Russia, which counts, I guess, although we weren't able to verify this. It'll often happen where I'll go into a country and you get what's called local support. So if you're going to do a show, for example, in, I don't know, a small city in France, you know, they'll send large publications

will do localized publications of those things for like, you know, local public just to expand their reader base. That's basically just the nature of mutate. And the claims about how fast you can learn with the Ridley method, Stephen says he really believes that with his method, you, yes, you can learn the piano much faster than you would almost any other way, that these results are indeed what the FTC refers to as, quote unquote, generally achievable. Now, whether it's achieved is based on the desires of the person. And something I've learned through teaching many thousands of people now is what I might want for the person is very different from what they might want for themselves.

And something that's very interesting in my program is a lot of people will get to a certain point and that's what they wanted. You know what? I just wanted to be able to... They're not interested in doing Rachmanino's fifth movement. They don't care. They just wanted to do that. I don't dictate what people should learn. I give them the tools so that by the end of the course, you can absolutely.

play Rachmanano's fifth movement if you choose to. About the Scientology, Stephen says he just talks about his religion when it comes up naturally. And by virtue of the fact that I'm quite an energetic person, a lot of people like to ask me, why do you get your energy from? What are you doing on that? What's your personal development?

What's your, and I'm an open book. I hope you can see. Like, I'm willing to talk about it. I'm willing to share it. It's got nothing to do learning the piano, and it's got nothing to do with what the academy does. I'm here to teach music. I'm not here to teach you religion and spirituality.

That's not what we do here. Does revenue from Ridley Academy go to the Church of Scientology? No, not at all. Not even in the slightest. Stephen took umbrage at the idea that his religion should define him. Not that I mind, and this is what comes with me being an open book. And I was the one who's decided to be this way and to communicate someone asleep. But I don't need to know your guy's religion to talk to you.

I don't need to know what are you doing with this podcast and is this got anything to do with Buddhism? And are you funding the nihilist movement of the Zionists? Or what do I care? Like, you're making great podcasts. You're doing a great job. It's been a pleasure to talk to you. Because of the history of the religion of Scientology and these allegations of abuse, the comparison to Buddhism does feel like potentially a stretch.

But point taken. Another thing that I kept coming back to was what felt to me like a real emphasis on fame, which is another similarity to Scientology, this idea of becoming your most successful self. Anna, the student in the Netherlands, told us quite plainly that she was looking for celebrity. One day I'm going to become famous. My music is going to become famous.

Yeah, I'm going, and that's also thanks to Ridley Academy. I started believing in myself. And Jennifer, who felt like Ridley Academy was the answer to her prayers, also hopes to make a living making music, which isn't the same thing as wanting to be famous, but in this day and age, it's harder and harder to pay the bills with music without some level of notoriety.

A lot of Stephen's ads focus on his experience as a concert pianist, with footage of screaming crowds from places like Uzbekistan. So we asked Stephen, is part of what he's selling a promise of making it? But he insists, unlike the church he belongs to, he is not selling a course to make a big. broadly the mission of the school is not to make these super nuanced music geeks that are high-class professional. So I'll show as many people as possible that it can be simple, that you can learn, and this is how you do it.

And, you know, if they want to go further than that, then I'm going to try and help them as well because it's something I've done. It's something I know about. He kept reiterating that he wanted to make a difference with Ridley Academy. I want you to play all the songs that you want to play. And I'm not going to tell you what to play. I'm just going to show you how to play cool and how to have confidence as an hour. artist and really just connect with this beautiful instrument and get beauty into your life. And I think if I do that on a big enough scale, that creates a more beautiful planet.

And I agree with that sentiment. More connections with instruments, prettier planet. But I just wonder how many magical connections can really be made for the price of $5,000 a pop. Stephen told us he's had 20,000 paying students. So even if they paid far less than that new sticker price, he's potentially pulling in tens of millions of dollars. If his mission is really to create a million artists, I kept wondering why he doesn't establish Ridley Academy as a nonprofit so he can make a living and make the price more accessible. Or hell, offer it all for free.

Yeah, we know something about making content that's free, right, Am I? But you know, right when we were signing off with Stephen, he had a question for us. I wanted to ask your experience of this. Like, it's super daunting to me the idea that I could put out a bunch of stuff and nobody listens, but I could also, like, what you guys are talking about, the nature of me, I already know what it's like.

As soon as I communicate, I like red. All these people that light blue are going to come and attack me and write all these bad things about me. But how do you navigate having an opinion and having a podcast? Listen, Stephen, I'd love to tell you The preliminary course costs $5,000. I'm hit for you. And it was worth it.

If it's going to mean it, I'm in. Should we start charging more for making meaning, Amory? Sure. Let's double the price. From free to free 99. In all seriousness, Stephen talked about how the secret to the Ridley method is breaking down the illusion of complexity. In music, how good piano playing really is just a lot of simple things happening at the same time. We started this journey because we wanted to know more about the guy in all of these ads on YouTube.

And check into all of these claims online that he's a scam. And at various points, the answer seemed pretty complicated. But maybe there are just a lot of simple things going on at once. Stephen Ridley is a Scientologist? He has a genuine passion for music and a genuine belief in what he's doing. And sometimes he employs marketing tactics that, frankly, seem disingenuous. The main course that he's selling is really expensive. And there are also a lot of people who are willing to pay for it.

These days, it feels like the definition of scam has expanded a lot. It's not as straightforward as someone selling you music lessons when they can't play an instrument, or tricking you into giving out your social security number. People call dating apps a scam. Or paying rent or taking out loans for college or working for, you know, most of your life also feels kind of scamy. Yeah, it's almost like scam is coming to mean a feeling about being misled or taken advantage of. Okay, Amory, remember Grace's friend George, whose real name is Ben? And remember Grace, who finally got us an interview with Stephen?

Props, Grace. Grace, seriously. Don't think about how much time you spent chasing deleted internet commenters accusing the Ridley Academy of scamming or Ridley himself. You definitely could have learned a bunch of piano during the time you spent on this. I honestly don't know if I could have learned a lot of piano, y'all. My piano teachers when I was a kid really were not optimistic about my abilities. Anyone can play the piano, Grace.

Anyway, so knowing what we know now, would you all tell George or really anyone that they should take the Ridley? Academy class? Well, I'm really glad that the students we talked to had a good experience with Ridley Academy, but I still can't get over all of the sales gimmicks. It just seems to me like if you have a product you really truly believe in, you don't need to stretch the truth to manipulate people into buying it. Amory? I don't know. I think you could spend $5,000 in far worse ways than trying to. Oh my God. You're so right. I'm trying to begin a musical education.

I think some people probably spent close to that much on college courses that they may be slept through or didn't complete most of the assignments for. Oh, God. I generally believe in investing in yourself and your happiness. And investing in music too, right? Like investing in music, like that's a pretty. You know, there's not a lot of evil in that zone. I would hope not. I mean, file this under experiences, not things.

And therefore, it automatically becomes far less worrisome to me than how you might spend $5,000 on, say, I don't know. What even costs $5,000 these day? A slip and slide, a very fancy slip and slide. Do those Google glasses, the Apple? vision, Google Glass. Is that $5,000? It's pretty close. It's about $3,000, so, you know,

it's pretty close. We'll round up a couple grand. Yeah. But you know what I mean. Yeah. No, I'm with you, Amory. Wait, wait, wait. I am not with you guys. Oh, Grace is, she's pulling us back out of the scam, the scam jaws. I mean, think about the real

Scientology plays into this. A lot of Redditors pointed to Stephen's affiliation with the church as a reason not to take the course. And I understand why that feels problematic. We never want to discriminate against people because of their religious beliefs, right? And I know Stephen addressed some of these concerns when he told us that none of the millions of dollars Ridley Academy takes in goes to the Church of Scientology. But I still can't stop thinking about a 1972 Scientology directive to its members to quote, make money, make more money, make other people produce so as to make money, unquote. Wait, I think that's a Biggie Smalls. Isn't that Biggie Smalls?

Biggie Smalls and El Ron Hubbard. Maybe he got it from him. Came later. Came later. Never mind. All jokes aside. Given some of the disturbing allegations I've read about the church, I personally don't want to risk contributing to that money making. That's fair. And finally, I still don't understand why it costs so much in the first place other than maybe to make money. Like, sure, I get it. Private instruction can cost a lot, and a lot of us have spent a lot more money than that on college courses. But in those cases, you're getting some individualized instruction at least, and it's in real time. And that seems different to me than creating one course like Ridley has that can be accessed a million times without having to update it. So if Ben George or any other friend of mine wanted to take this course,

knowing everything we know, I wouldn't stand in their way because I believe people have learned the piano from Ridley Academy. It's not a scam in the music man sense where he's selling something that's totally fake. But personally, if I ever return to the piano bench, I'm going old school. Give my dad a call, Grace. But that is a great point. And I think it's, you know, it's hard. Like I feel like I came to this being absolutely certain that Stephen Ridley was a scammer and that this is a big, it's like a big old switcheroo that he's pulling on us. And like it's a little more complicated than that, I guess, you know?

Another thing that people say about capitalism. What's that? Something's only worth what people are willing to pay for it. Oh, man. And so if you're willing to pay $5,000 for the hope, the dream. of learning an instrument, then do it, man. It's music.

Music is beautiful. Yeah. In 76 trombones led the fa. Learning an instrument never made the world worse. Oh, man, ain't that the truth? That's how I really feel. All right. So go learn an instrument.

Yeah. And pay whatever you think is worth it. And then we can all start an endless thread band. Oh, with love. that. With 70s strong bones. Tubas. We need some tubas in the endless thread band folks. So if you got a tuba, let us know. Or if you're feeling really strong, a sousaphone. A sousaphone. Oh, man. I was always jealous of the sousaphone players in a way, in a weird way.

If you play the sousaphone, let us know. Endless thread at WBUR.org.org. Send us your sees of phone photos. Just for fun. Endless thread is a production of WBUR in Boston. This episode was written and produced by me, Grace Tatter. And co-hosted by me, Ben Brock Johnson, and our pal Amory Sewardson. Mix and sound design by Emily Jankowski. The rest of our team is Paul Vicus, Matt Reed, Samata Joshi, Frannie Monaghan, Dean,

D.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N.N. See y'all next week. Right after we all go tickle some ivories.