Endless Thread - Underunderstood: The 9/11 Hoax That Wasn't

Episode Date: November 27, 2019

While we’re busy stuffing our faces over Thanksgiving, we thought we’d share a story you’ll love from another great podcast: Underunderstood. They look into a photo that frequently goes viral on Reddit to figure out, once and for all, whether or not it’s a hoax. Their conclusion is satisfying and weirdly touching.

Support for endless thread comes from Mathworks, creator of MATLAB and Simulink Software, to design and develop engineered systems, accelerating the pace of discovery in engineering and science. Learn more at Mathworks.com. Support for WBUR comes from Is Business Broken, a podcast from the Mayrotra Institute at Boston University that explores questions like, why is innovation in healthcare so hard? Is ESG just greenwashing? And, of course, is business broken? Listen, wherever you get your podcasts.

Produced by the I-Lap at WBUR, Boston. Amory. Ben. John. Hello. Billy. Hi. So clearly we have some special guests with us today.

They are great and awesome. Their names are John Lago-Marcino and Billy Disney. And they make a podcast that we love called Un-Ey. Under Understood. John, what should people know about your fabulous show? Underunderstood is a podcast that Billy and I make with two other co-hosts, Regina DeLay and Adrian Jeffries. And the basic premise of it is that on every episode,

we find a question that the internet can't answer. And we fill in the gaps and we do some reporting. And hopefully by the end of an episode, we've got the answer to that question and we can put it on our podcast back on the internet. And so the question that the internet couldn't answer is now answered. Will you guys tackle why everything is horrible all the time now? That's a big question, Ben.

Yeah, that's the next season finale. Okay. Perfect. Fair enough. Consider me subscribe. Well, we brought you guys in today because we love Under Understood. And I think our listeners are going to love Under Understood, too. And there's an episode in particular that we wanted to feature for them.

So this episode connects to Reddit and a suspicious photograph and 9-11. So, Billy, without giving away too much, how did you find this story? Yeah, this story came from my sister, actually. A defining thing about our childhood, especially for people who are in our 30s, is that we always had internet access. And one thing my sister and I love to do was debunk fake things. on the internet. But there was one that we both remember very distinctly, which was an early viral photo called Accidental Tourist or Tourist guy, which shows a guy standing on the observation deck

of the World Trade Center with a plane coming towards him. And this photo was debunked, but recently, you know, almost two decades later, my sister is on Reddit and she sees someone sharing a very similar photo. And then she sees it again and again. And it keeps making. And it keeps making the rounds on Reddit, but unlike the Torres guy, she can't find a good investigation into whether the photo is real or not. So we decided to look into it. So she's like, bro, figure it out. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, basically our listener base right now is just my sister. So taking stories wherever we can get that. Billy's sister, this is a repeat for you, I guess. But without further ado, let's all listen to your story.

It's called the 9-11 hoax that wasn't. The internet doesn't have all the answers. But that doesn't mean we can't find them. This is under-understood. I'm Billy Disney. I'm Adrian Jeffries. I'm John Lago-Marcino. I'm Regi and a Leyen.

Today on the show, Billy becomes a 9-11 truther. Sort of. So I have a photo. here from September 11th, 2001. This will also be on our website, and it's in the show notes for the episode. Could someone describe this photo? Oh, wow. We're looking at a photo of a kid, and he's standing on, I think it's probably the walkway

next to the west side highway in Manhattan, and the camera is facing south, right? So we've got the kid in the foreground. He's wearing around his neck. of yellow binoculars. And behind him, we can see down at the bottom of Manhattan, the twin towers are on fire. Also, there are a bunch of people walking away from the trade center towards the camera in this photo, not looking particularly panicked. And the kid is just kind of like, like, he's not smiling, but he's just like, he's not reacting.

He's looking around. Yeah. He's, none of this suggests that anyone in the photo thinks that there's an emergency happening behind them. It's just really odd because I don't know. I have a lot of questions about what's going on here. It's unnatural looking. Have any of you seen this image before? No. No.

So my sister sent this in, actually. She saw it on Reddit. She actually said she's seen it on Reddit a bunch of times. It'll recirculate. But whenever she sees it, she tries to look up and see if it's real or not, and she can't find anything. All she can find is this Snopes article about a similar photo. called Accidental Tourist, which was a viral photo of a guy standing on the observation deck of the World Trade Center with a plane coming towards him.

And that photo was debunked, but unlike that photo, no one has ever really fact-checked this one. So what would you guess if you guys had to say whether this photo was real or fake? Faked. Why is that?

Because of the, just the stance of everyone in it. Yeah, he's chill. The people are just like walking rather casually. Why'd they stop to take the photo? Right. With the kid in it? Like, somebody would have turned around and looked at it. Also, why would you pose the kid in front of the World Trade Center as it's burning?

I think also it's, there's a long tradition of hoaxes on Reddit in order to get karma. Right. There's so many hoaxes on Reddit and people have gotten to the point where they start to assume that everything is a hoax. Right. Yeah. And that's actually like exactly what my... sister did. Are you going to tell us that this photo is actually real? I don't know. My sister sent this to me. She said, I keep seeing it pop up on Reddit. It pops up all the time. And so I went to Pennsylvania

where she lives to talk to her. Hey, Lisa. Hi. My parents own and operate a pinball arcade in Malvern, PA, by the way. So if you hear a bunch of background noise, that's why. Sweet. Do you send me this photo? I have it here. Yeah. There's, there's, there's, there's, so many things that are just weird about it and kind of perfect about it. So your assumption at first was, oh, this is fake. Yeah. So the rest of my family starts coming over, and this will give you some insight into where my inherent sense of skepticism comes from.

Okay. Hold on, so my family has gathered around now. They're all giving their input on this. So what is it? So this is a photo, Lisa found on Reddit. Do you think it's real? Well, it's hard to tell. This building was put in afterwards in the back.

So this was all okay. What was put in is the building. And why is the child not looking at what is happening? How can he turn around? No one is, though. Like, do you see anyone looking at it? So, honestly, at this point, the interview is, like, completely beyond my control. I don't know what was going on.

I mean, my family, like, is supposed to be running a business at this place, but all of a sudden this was like their entire focus. They were just like super analyzing this photo. The shadow definitely doesn't match where the sun is. Okay, so my dad is a full-blown shadow truther. If the sun is in the foreground, you're seeing the back end of the tower there? So in the photo, it looks like the sun is behind him. It might not be the sun.

There's a big ball of light back there. And my family noticed that the shadows don't really match up with where the sun would be casting shadows. So they were very suspicious of this. And it looks like it's brightly lit, but then the building next to it looks like it's dark. You're saying everything I've already said. Okay, well, this photo ruined my parents' marriage. It lasted so long. Right, I know.

This photo is the thing to tear it apart. I'm sure. Anyway, we narrowed it down to six questions, basically. One, who is the kid? Two, is the photo even real? Three, if it's real, why did they take the picture? Four, why is no one reacting? Five, why isn't it more famous?

And six, why don't the shadows match up? Hmm. Yeah, so. Find him. Find him. Anybody want to go to Tribeca with me? I'll go. Great.

Maybe we'll stop at the balloon saloon. Oh, Perf. Coming up, Billy counts to six again. At Radio Lab, we love nothing more than nerding out about science, neuroscience, chemistry. But, but we do also like to get into other kinds of stories, stories about policing, or politics, country music, hockey, sex, of bugs. Regardless of whether we're looking at science or not science, we bring a rigorous curiosity to get you the answers. And hopefully, make you see the world anew. Radio Lab, Adventures on the Edge of what we think we know.

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Whatever your goal, we can help. Discover how the magic is made at WBUR.org.org slash creative studio. Hey, everybody. Hey. Hi. I have answers. So question number one. Question number one was who is the boy in the photograph?

That question was actually pretty easy to answer. The reason being, one time this photo was posted on Reddit, someone actually chimed in. Adrian, you want to read this? Okay. My name is Austin Sansone. And I live in Tribeca, which is in the lower west side of Manhattan. And this is a picture of me on 9-11. I was four years old, and the picture was taken alongside the West Side Highway that morning.

I have the actual photo, which I will post a picture of when I get home. For all of you doubting whether this is real or Photoshopped, I promise you that it is sadly very real. And then he said, for all those who thought it was fake, here you go. This is me with one of the original photos printed. I also have the negatives somewhere. So can someone describe the photo that he linked to? Okay, the photo that he linked to is It's a guy sitting in a chair holding a piece of eight and a half by eleven paper

Written in well presumably handwritten on it is Austin Sanzone May 29th 2015 he's holding that in his left hand in his right hand he's holding the photo that we saw kind of in front of the eight and a half sheet Eight and a half by eleven sheet of paper This doesn't prove anything couldn't he just have printed that photo? Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah. It does, if you do blow it up, though, it does look cleaner. It could be the same kid, for sure. Yeah, and I also found, I also found additional photos of him as a child, actually.

Hold on, wait, let me see if I can find it. Oh, are we on the same forum? Is it Cluesforum.com. Oh, no, I did find that website, though, and some people were saying that they thought the kid looked like, oh, they linked to, uh, who was it? It was some celebrity. Mark Lester. Yes, right.

Yeah, Mark Lester, who played the, title role in Oliver, the musical film that won Best Picture in 1968. How old he got to Tribeca in the year 2001? I do not know. What I was actually talking about was some photographer's website that comes up when you search his name, and it's this guy as a kid, slightly older. So there are other photos of him as a kid online. Everything here seems to check out.

And if you look at the dates on everything, the dates on everything, the dates line. line up. And so I think we have enough to say, for now at least, that he's a real person, and his name is Austin Sansone. And he is really the person in the photo. But that brings us to question number two, is the photo real? Meaning, is he really standing in front of the burning World Trade Center buildings? Terrorists declare war on the United States, hijacking jet miners, Crashing them into New York's World Trade Towers, downtown New York and chaos. America wondering what next. Despite the tremendous amount of tragedy and shock on September 11th, there were still

plenty of hoaxes, like that accidental tourist photo. So it's plausible that this is a fake. So that's why I hit up Austin directly to see if he could prove that the photo was real. Austin responded to me on Instagram. He said, Billy, I think I'd love this. the opportunity to be a part of this. Honestly, I think part of me has always wanted to tell the story behind the photo after I saw that people were questioning the validity of it.

That was the only reason I ever replied to the Reddit thread in the first place. So basically, from there, we arrange a time to meet up, and he says that he can bring his mother with him, who is the one who took the photo. A witness. A witness. And also someone old enough to remember. what was actually happening. So Regina and I arranged to meet him

at the exact location where the photo was taken. But it was raining that day, so we switched to a local cafe. And then the cafe was closed for a private event. And so at this point, I also realized the microphone I brought is broken. No. But it's like the universe doesn't want me to know

what really happened on September 11th. But fortunately, Regina swoops in and she got us access to 368, KC. Nicestat Studio in Manhattan. Fancy. But they eventually come in and we sit down in this little area and basically start talking. So Austin and sorry, I didn't get your name. Susan.

Billie. Bill and Susan. Got it. So again, Austin brought his mother, Susan, who is actually a very successful costume designer for film and TV. She was very cool. Yeah. My name is Susan Lyle. I live in Tribeca.

I am a costume designer. And I am the photographer of the 9-11 photo that brought us all here today. Right. And I am the subject as the sign. So they live in Tribeca, just a few blocks from where this photo was taken, supposedly taken, which is, they say, along the little walkway park that's along the West Side Highway, as John speculated. Thank you. They seem to be authentic.

They seem to really have lived there. He seems to be the person in the photo. So I just kind of cut right to the chase, and I get right to the second question, is this photo real? So before we get too deep, I guess I should ask you, you guys brought some stuff.

I suppose I should ask for the proof that the photo is real. So you have the actual prints from that day, as well as some other ones? Yes, I have a couple of things. This is the proof. from the negatives. So there's minuscule prints in line

showing you what was contained on the roll. I have had this photograph duplicated a number of times, and hence the negatives are just somewhere out of my grasp at the moment. But here is the actual photo on the day. Do you mind if I hold the photo and look at it? Wow, yeah, okay. So this is the exact photo that I saw.

all shared online. Okay, so I'm sharing with the three of you the photos that Susan shared with me. There's a lot. Austin and I went to a FedEx location afterwards and scanned them. The first thing you'll see is a contact sheet, which is like thumbnails of all the photos. I remember these so well. This looks legit to me. It's one of these grids.

It says the date it was developed. Yeah, the date of the contact sheet at least is 9-2601. The photo of the kid is 11A. This is a much better print of this than the one that was previously online. Well, one other observation is that after that photo, it does seem like she starts to pay more attention to the burning building. There are a couple shots that are just focused on the building with all the smoke billing out of the top. Yeah, and you'll notice with these photos, there's little notes attached.

There's little post-it notes. Looking for the negatives, I found what I sent to my mother who has passed away. but these were in her letters and this is what I sent to her so I sent it to her because it was hard for her to imagine but not that hard because she had lived she grew up in Holland which was an occupied

country and in an odd way my parents more than any of my friends or anyone else I knew actually understood what I felt like that day so she made these little post-it notes showing different things you'll even see there's one after the towers collapsed

where she drew a little picture of like here's where the towers were. Should be here is what it says with the little towers. Yeah, and there's a hole there. But yeah, you're right. They get much more sort of somber after that. And she also is retreating. They go back to their house. Right.

There's an obvious mood shift in the photos. But based on having seen these, which will be on our website, by the way, which will be on underunderstood.com, anyone can check them out. based on these photos, you'd say, what would your inclination be now? If at first they were fake, what would you say now? This was very real. Yeah. So question one, who is in the photo?

Austin Sansone. Two, is the photo real? Now that we've seen these, it seems to be real. We'll get further into the evidence, but I think we can say a tentative yes. So that brings us to question number three. Why did they take the picture? You told me that this was one of your earliest memories. Can you tell me about that?

What do you remember about the photo itself? Yeah, so, well, in terms of the photo itself, I don't remember the exact moment it was taken. I remember the context leading up to it, essentially. It was the first day of pre-K, or nursery school for me, I guess you'd say, and I was sitting in our living room. I was eating a bowl of cereal or breakfast.

in general, and I was watching Dragon Tales on TV. Dragons, it's almost time for Dragon Tales. I think it was Cyberchase. It was Dragon Tales. I remember. Cyberchase was a favorite in kindergarten onwards. I don't think I liked the math enough at the time. So anyway, it was his first day of pre-K,

and they phased the children in. the first group of children go at 9 o'clock, and the second group of children go at 11 o'clock, and he was in the 11 o'clock group. I wish, I wish with all my heart to fly with dragons in a land. I remember my mother running over and grabbing the clicker and being immediately furious that my television for the morning was being canceled. Sean, we're on the air right now.

What can you tell us about this situation? I just witnessed a plane that appeared to be cruising. slightly lower than normal altitude over New York City, and it appears to have crashed into, I don't know which tower it is, but it hit directly in the middle of one of the World Trade Center. I remember her switching to the news, and I remember the building on the television,

and then her telling me I had to get my shoes on. I can see flames now coming out the side of the building, and smoke continues to build up. As I recall, there was sort of a static happened. There were a lot of sirens, and you were complaining because it was static, and then the phone rang because it was my husband calling. And so I was sort of, I don't know what's wrong with the television,

answering the phone and running to the front to see what all of the noise was about. And that's when my husband explained. Two planes have hit the towers, and went back, switched the television, and then thought, you know, We have to go outside and see what this is because it was... So you were able to see it on television right then after?

Yes, it came back. And there is that decision of whether to watch it or not on television that every parent probably had to make that day. And turned it off. Went outside. You know, grab my camera. You know, just a... Grab my binocular.

Yes, went outside to see what it was. You just didn't really understand it, but really the commotion. And of course, canals, because we're below Canal Street, everything is closed off. Only responding vehicles are coming in. And it seems really big, bigger than usual. And honestly, until you got out there, it was kind of hard to just really see it, to be honest. So when I took the picture, I thought, this is some picture I'm taking right now.

And I also thought about taking another one, but I have to say it seemed somehow disrespectful or voyeuristic or something. It didn't seem right. And yet I did want to take one. I think when this photo popped up on Reddit, the context that people were applying to it was that it was like the accidental tourist photo where it was like, I was just taking a photo of this person and then happened to capture this event in the background. But what she's saying is that, in fact, they knew it was happening and they went out to take a picture of it specifically. Yes. Exactly. And it was like there was this rush and then people thought it was over.

Yeah. So that brings us to the fourth question, actually, which is why is no one reacting? So here's what Susan had to say. Everyone was moving quite calmly at this moment because it hadn't collapsed. There were all kinds of sirens. It was terrible. but it seemed like the worst was over, and maybe people would be saved. And everyone had been told to leave, and people are walking.

You can see in the first photo, people are walking. Some of them are carrying folders. They're carrying their briefcases in their bags and so on. They've left, but assume they're going back. It's like a fire drill, like a horrible, horrible fire drill. Which is something that was, I think, always questioned by people online is the fact that no one was running. and maybe you see some more horrifying photos of people running,

but those typically, at least what I've seen, are people running at the base or very close to the buildings. We were probably 11, 12 blocks north of the towers at the time, maybe more, 15, but. Yeah, and I think the other thing people pointed out was like, oh, why is no one looking at it? But we can see, since we can see more clearly in the original photograph here, you can actually see,

It appears there is someone, a man, I believe, standing behind you, Austin, who is just staring at the building, presumably in disbelief. It was odd, because people were fairly calm. It was odd. No question. To answer the question, why is no one reacting? She basically says, you know, people didn't know what was about to happen. And again, I think that is like one of the things about this photograph that really resonates

with people is it does sort of represent this eye of the storm moment with the events of 9-11 where this horrific thing happened but we didn't really know how horrific it could get there was this sort of wall after it happened people trying to collect their thoughts figure out what was going on

they come by and they say what happened what happened and you just got to say something hit the building and then something hit both we started to head back and I took another picture here and I've written on a post We've left the river crossing the median, going home. About two minutes later, the first tower collapsed.

A huge explosion now raining debris on all of us. We better get out of the way. They decided to leave, and they took a photo as they were crossing the median, and she has the time stamp on it, and two minutes later is when the tower is collapsed. Anyway, we had to go, of course, back inside to see it on TV. Anyway. So that brings us to question number five.

Why isn't the photo more famous? Do you guys have any guesses for this one, by the way? There's a lot of photos of 9-11. It's also a strange tone for a 9-11 photo to have. Right. Like it looks like a pretty happy kid. Right. With these bright yellow binoculars.

Yeah. And also, I think it was just very personal. Like, if you look at that contact sheet again, you'll notice the date at the top once she got it developed. 926. Yeah, so it's like a full two weeks after this happened.

And basically she said that she just couldn't bring herself to get them developed. And she went on to explain that they actually did have some opportunities to kind of showcase the photo, but again,

they just felt too strange to her. There was a call for photographs afterwards, and there was a gallery in Soho, they were looking for interesting photographs. And I can't tell you the number of people who, of my people who had known of the photograph, it said, you should send that in. You should, but why would I send that in? I just, I didn't, I just didn't feel right about it, to be honest. It just seemed opportunistic. Yeah, so, I mean, she was just kind of worried about exploiting the situation. She obviously knows the power an image can have working in film. That was too much to process. She didn't want to

she didn't want the photo to be famous. How did the photo get online? Well, interesting you ask. So Austin didn't really process how interesting the photo was until he was older and he talked some about that. That photo my mom would occasionally show to family, family friends and the reactions were always so significant. And to be honest, until I reached a certain age, I don't think I really fully understood why. So while Austin and his family were safe on 9-11, the same camping set for everyone in their neighborhood.

Susan showed me a photo of a vigil outside of the firehouse that they would walk by every day. And there's a little note under it that says they lost 11 men. And so every year the school Austin went to would have a memorial service on September 11th. to remember all the people who were lost. And sometime around middle school, the significance of that started to sink in.

That was around the time when I shared it on Facebook first for the first time. A few years go by. He doesn't hear about the image that much. And he decides to post it privately to one of his own accounts again. The second time I shared it was two years later in 2014, this time on my very fledgling Instagram, at the time. How's your Instagram doing now?

I mean fledgling more in the sense that not many people, I think, had it, or at least it was new to me, I suppose. So he posted it to Instagram. He gets some comments, some likes, just some normal engagement from his friends. And then a year or so goes by, and suddenly a friend is like, I saw your photo somewhere. A friend of mine, actually, from elementary school, who hadn't spoken to in a long time, reached out to me of all places on Facebook. Messenger and said, hey, I just saw this photo of you on Reddit. People are asking if it's real,

you should go on there and claim it. And I was like, first off, what's Reddit? Second off, what do you mean, claim it? And why are they even questioning it? And that was kind of my initial reaction. And so I clicked on the link he had sent me. I opened it up. And it was a whole Reddit, I guess, stream, you call it, of people talking about this photo. And honestly, I don't think I ever would have thought twice about it, let alone responded to it. I literally created a Reddit account in order to respond to it, and that was mainly because people were questioning its validity. I just reverse image search this, just because I was curious about whether the original

post would come up, and someone posted it on Reddit yesterday in a meme template. What? Really? Huh. What's the meme? It has Austin labeled as me, and then the tower is labeled my life falling apart. Oh my God. The commenters don't think it's funny. Okay, well that's good.

A couple of commenters are saying that this photo is also posted on a subreddit called Alternate Angles, which is a little more appropriate. It is big historical events, photos from an angle you're not used to seeing. It's funny that it's in all of these places, but according to him, no one has actually ever reached out to verify that it's real. Two years ago, or one year ago almost when I was in college, and a Yahoo article or an AOL article came up, and it was like on the page when you opened up Yahoo or something. And he even shows the photo I took literally in our kitchen of me holding the photos. I took that photo too. Yes. I just like my photo credit on this one, please.

So this journalist didn't reach out to you to verify. No. No, I had no idea this article was being put together. Yeah, so not only has no one reached out to verify that it's real, but no one's reached out about what is the ultimate question, at least from my perspective, our question number six, why don't the shadows line up? One shared online is a photo I took of the photo with my iPhone.

But I think you took it with the flash on or there was an overhead light or something. And so... My desk lamp is above. I remember that because it was glaring off the photo and I was like, well, you can't really see. It just looks all fuzzy, I guess. That orb of light was not the sun.

It was an overhead light. It was like his desk lamp or something. Oh. And not only did they have a very clear copy of that photo from the day, they also had photos where they had returned

to that exact same spot on different days sort of as he was growing up. So I'm going to play this and you can open up. folder 2. Oh my God. So when it was 9-11-11,

we went out and took another picture. It's as exact as we could figure it out, actually. Yeah, that's pretty darn close. Looking like a young heartthrob, too. Just curls? So this image will be on our website as well, but this is in 2011 on the 10-year anniversary of September 11th.

This is a photo of Austin as a young teenager in the exact same spot. This is crazy that they went to do this. This is wild. That park, after they finished it, has been a place where we walked up and down every single day growing up to soccer games, to school. And honestly, every time I come home from school, I find myself going out there and sitting there. It is my favorite place or one of my favorite places in New York City. I call it our Tribeca backyard.

But Wow. Yeah, that's really incredible. So all in all, I would say this is like pretty convincing stuff, right? Yeah, no, there's no question. This is all real. So with all of this evidence in hand, and in the spirit of returning to the scene of something tragic,

I went back to see my family in Pennsylvania. And the conspiracy theories, immediately just started flowing out again. Okay, I'm back here at the pinball gallery. My mother has the photo up again, and she is analyzing it. What were you saying? I said that looks like a nun back there.

That, and that's suspicious to you? Should she be praying with someone? I'd say, yeah. Well, I have some answers. Basically, item by item, I start to go through all of the questions that they had. He just took a photo of it with his phone. Here's the flash?

No, it wasn't the flash. There was an overhead light in the room. This is what mom thought was a nun. I just want to clarify what my mother thought was a nun. It's just a lady. It's just a lady. But the son's hitting her shirt. That's clearly not a conspiracy anymore.

Now that we confirmed that the woman is not a nun. I showed him all of the photos. I relayed Austin and Susan's personal account of the day. and now that, you know, all that was suddenly real, like these people were real, their story was real, the tone suddenly shifted. I feel a lot more sad now. It's a lot heavier now, you know, it's real. Sorry, you said you feel a lot more sad now? You almost look like you're tearing up a bit.

She did say part of the reason she didn't want to believe it in the first place because she didn't want to think of a kid being like, there and having that memory. There wasn't much more I could do besides tear up when we went through all that and saw it then. So it just takes you back. You were at school, right? You couldn't watch it because you had, you were teaching little tiny kids. Watching kids that age. And then the next day, watching them build towers with their blocks and knock them down

and try to find a balance between not talking about it and talking enough to help them through it. I think it's just... Do you think it was a bad idea to try to record a podcast in a pinball arcade? I told you that when you started. Okay. That was an episode of Under Understood.

If you want more answers to questions the internet can't answer, subscribe to Under Understood wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah, these guys are like internet mystery heroes, so we really highly recommend the show and you should listen. Endless Thread will be back next week

with a regular episode. Okay, bye.