Endless Thread - Women are from Venus, men are from... the Roman Empire?

Episode Date: November 17, 2023

Within a few months, the question "how often do men think about the Roman Empire?" conquered Instagram, TikTok and countless group chats — and then morphed into something else. What links this to other memes of the moment? Do all roads lead to Rome, or is something else at the root of the Roman Empire, girl math, and girl dinner?

Support for endless thread comes from MathWorks, creator of MATLAB and Simulink Software, to design and develop engineered systems, accelerating the pace of discovery in engineering and science. Learn more at Mathworks.com. Support for WBUR comes from Is Business Broken, a podcast from the Marotra Institute at Boston University that explores questions like, why is innovation in healthcare so hard? Is ESG just greenwashing? of course, is business broken? Listen, wherever you get your podcasts. WBUR Podcasts, Boston. Hi, Emery. Hi, Ben. Hi, Ben. I have a question, and it's just for you. Okay. Do you know what I'm going to ask? I have a sense, but let's out with it. Okay. How often do you think about the Roman Empire? Sorry, why I was just thinking about something? Oh, you just know he's been planning to do that, Grace. Don't you get that feeling?

He's just been waiting. Only since five minutes ago. He was rehearsing it in the mirror right before this. I was like, how long should I wait? How long should I wait? Do you want the real answer? Yeah, no, I want the real answer. This is journalism.

The real answer is not since I took Latin in high school generally, but I did start watching the show Rome on HBO, which is a very old show. At the time it came out, I remember it kind of had a reputation for being like tawdry and X-rated and whatever. And now when I watch it, I'm like, A, it's not that bad.

And B, it was pretty interesting. I have to admit, I did go to at least one wiki article about a battle between Caesar. And, oh, God, is the other guy. I clearly don't think about it that much. And the other guy who he's like has this long rivalry with... Brutus?

No, it's not Brutus. It's not Pontius. It's, you know, it's not Pygmalion. I don't know who it is. Hercules? No, no, no, no. It's the guy that he has this like rivalry with. And there's this battle where Caesar is like outnumbered like 15 to 1 or something like that.

And I actually went and looked at the Wikipedia page about it. it because I was like, wow, how did Caesar beat that? Did you stay awake for that, Grace? I was fading a little bit. I will say that this is not the first time that this has happened to me where I asked someone, they say they don't think about it often, and then they talk at such length. With so little information. At such length with so little information about it.

So, Amory, the reason I asked Ben and not you is not because I care more about how often Ben thinks about the Roman Empire or anything else. But because the trend on TikTok that we're here to talk about today is specifically asking men this question about how often they think about the Roman Empire. How many times, like a week or just how many times in general, do you think about the Roman Empire? What about the Roman Empire? Just anything about it? Probably not a lot.

Why? not a lot. What was the last time you thought about it? Maybe a week or two ago. The Roman Empire was a very big part in history. Oh, gosh. Maybe I'm confused about the origins of this. I thought it started on Twitter. Well, it actually started in Italy.

What is now Italy? My understanding of how this started, and now it's become such a big thing, by the way, that Panera has literally added a Roman Empire section to their menu. So this is really spiraled out of control. But my understanding of where it started, last year, a Swedish influencer named Saski Akort posed this question on Instagram. This year, it went viral stateside when a Roman reenactor who goes by the name of Gaius Flavius. I did not take Latin in high school, so I might be pronouncing that wrong. on Instagram, posted an image of a video of some ruins with this instructive.

Ladies, many of you do not realize how often men think about the Roman Empire. Ask your husband slash boyfriend slash father slash brother. You will be surprised by their answers. And then it took off on TikTok with lots and lots of videos of women pointing the camera at the men and their lives. And asking them the question I just asked Ben. How often do you think about the Roman Empire? A lot. Really?

Yeah. Like, how often? At least once a day? Seriously? Absolutely. Why men specifically is a question I have. Why is it so gendered? Do we think?

Yeah, that's actually, that's exactly the question I have for you all. Because, like, even the original question from Gaius, Flavius, is specifically like ladies. Ask the men in your life. What is it about the experience of being a man that lends itself to thinking about the Roman Empire? Well, I have a theory about this that I will get to eventually. And I'm not going to say it right now because I don't think it's the time, but I do have a theory about this. I would welcome our listeners to chime in on this, maybe in our subreddit in the comments, because I only have a, one theory about that and I don't, I can't really speak to its validity.

That's fair. So this was actually only stage one of this trend, though. What do you think the next phase of this meme would be? What did you, what did we all learn about before the Roman Empire? Before the Roman Empire? The Greeks, the Greeks, baby. I'm going to say it got Greek. Did it go Greek? Wait, wait, wait, can I guess before you reveal? My guess would be to ask the men in their life, whoever is filming, what they know about the Roman Empire. Or like, name your favorite thing about the Roman Empire to see if they actually do know anything about it. Yes.

That would be a good one. I can tell you from experience that a lot of the men answer very enthusiastically about the cement. But no, the next phase of this trend has been, okay, If men are thinking about the Roman Empire all the time, what are women thinking about? I don't know. I think a lot about like women's gymnastics

and how impressive women gymnasts are and how it's the best sport on the planet. A sport that has been a thing since... The Roman Empire. The Roman Empire. We've been flipping for centuries and centuries. No, I probably like waste way too much energy being afraid of people. Well, I don't know if this is exactly what you mean,

but when I first saw this, the second phase of this meme, what's women's Roman Empire? The first video I saw that I instantly shared to with a lot of people was our Roman Empire is thinking about our ex-best friends. But then ones that I quickly saw after that are our Roman Empire is trying to figure out, what your body looks like. So body image.

Our Roman Empire is getting kidnapped. So kind of like more, yeah. More like fear-based. That's probably, that's what I was kind of hinting at. Male stranger danger. Yes. Yeah. And there are some versions of the second question.

What are women thinking about all the time? That's kind of are going more for the history analogy. So once I saw a lot where Anne Boleyn, which is also kind of like male stranger danger, right? Because she got her head caught off by her husband. Helen Keller, the Triangle Sturt Waste Factory Fire, the Donner Party. And these are all varied, but I'm wondering, is there like any kind of through line that you see? Just like tragic, horrific deaths. Of women?

That's not quite Helen Keller, but just like, yeah, it's like women who suffer. Yeah, I think that that's a possible through line. I'd also say that these are all, like the Roman Empire is just like this huge, I mean, spanning central. expansive idea. Well, all of these examples are like much more specific. And probably some of the interest to women would be like the social and interpersonal dynamics at play. Like that's probably a little bit, I think, of what people are thinking about with a lot of these examples. Makes sense. That makes sense to me too. And I wanted to say it, but I was also afraid because if this whole conversation feels like a minefield for me. Well, Ben, I wonder if part of the reason

you feel like this is like a landmine and it's because we are talking so much about stereotypes and it's not just one grace it's a whole mind it's a mine field mine field it's not just one landmine that I could avoid I feel like part of the reason is this trend really feeds into this idea like men are from Mars women are from Venus

like we're just so different right Mars and Venus also connected to the Roman Empire Are those the Roman names or the Greek names? I never remember which is which. Those are the Roman names. All roads lead back to Rome. But this trend actually got me thinking about some other memes that feed into this idea of the gender binary.

And I'll tell you more about those after the break. At Radio Lab, we love nothing more than nerding out about science, neuroscience, chemistry. But we do also like to get into other kinds of. of stories. Stories about policing or politics, country music, hockey, sex, of bugs. Regardless of whether we're looking at science or not science, we bring a rigorous curiosity to get you the answers. And hopefully make you see the world anew. Radio Lab, Adventures on the Edge of what we think we know. Wherever you get your podcast. There is something powerful about the sound of the human voice. Beautifully produced audio has the unique power to connect and inspire.

Tell your organization's story with a custom podcast from CitySpace Productions, the Creative Studio from WBUR's business partnerships team. Become a thought leader. Recruit new talent. Reach new audiences. Whatever your goal, we can help. Discover how the magic is made at WBUR.org slash creative studio. Okay, so are you all familiar with the TikTok meme girl math?

Yes. Yes, I am. But I don't understand it as well as like the girl dinner, boy dinner thing. Oh, which I'm going to get to that one too. So I'm glad that you're already aware. I'm going to send you a video of Girl Math. So I bought this purse for $38, which means it was $30. Round down, not a girl math.

We went to Sephora and the lady at the cash said that if I spend $20, then I get 500 points, which is $10 off my next purchase. So I made money. I bought $20 in scratch tickets and I won $70. So I made $70. Yeah, you made $70, not $50. Yeah, because it was cash. So it was free.

Girl math. Okay. So how would you explain this trend? What's the subtext here? The subtext is women spend too much money on things and this explains it away or rationalizes it. Totally. And I'll admit when I first saw these videos, I laughed and I saw myself and them like a very real example of girl math from my very own brain that I think about like a lot. It's my Roman Empire, if you will. I never get

manicures, but I know a lot of women who do. So I'm always like, oh, that's every month. Like that's $60. that I can spend on other things. I'm basically Warren Buffett because I'm not getting manicures. And I know that that's not actually how math works. But I use that to justify purchases constantly. I have CVS coupon math, I think, which is like, which is like if I can save, you know, 10% on more sleep gummies, then I will buy more sleep gummies even if I just bought sleep gummies because I'm like, but I can save 10%.

And I'm always going to need more sleep gummies, even though they're just going to keep feeding me those coupons. GirlMath. Except for not really, because I'm pretty sure everyone does this. Are you a coupon guy, Ben? Oh, man, let's not go there. I don't, I... We're going there. Does GirlMath resonate with you at all in this video, in this particular video?

Yes. Are you ever, like, $38 round down to 30? Yes. I don't love the takeaway of this video, or what feels like could be the takeaway of this video. And I also relate to it. I round down all the time. I do things with money that are very, like, siloed in the way that I think about them so that I'm not actually looking at the bigger picture.

And I'm just looking at this small thing and patting myself on the back. While over here, I'm doing something completely ridiculous and, like, spending money in a way that is, like, very foolish. And I'm defending it by this other thing that I do that is, like, supposedly smart. And that's not how. money works. Equal opportunity silly finances.

And Amory, you mentioned girl dinner. Can you just like give a brief summary of that? Because that was also, has been really big Popeyes now has a girl dinner section of their menu. So it's also infiltrated the zeitgeist.

Well, my understanding and maybe this is not totally correct, but at least this is how it feels in my life, is that girl dinner is a bunch of little snails. put together so that we don't have to cook ourselves a whole meal that only we might eat. But it's like, I'm going to have like an apple with almond butter.

And I'm going to have some like pistachios. And I think I have some popcorn somewhere. And that's girl dinner. Yeah, I eat what would be called girl dinner pretty much every night. But I would say like on average, not totally, but a lot of the guys I know, I think are just a little bit more obsessed with like the idea of like having like a protein and a starch and a vegetable and like don't understand something to be a meal unless it has those components. But not hashtag not all men. But I think what I'm getting with like and again with all these memes like I saw the girl

dinner one is like that's funny. I relate. I relate. Girl math. I relate. But I think what I've been building up to though and what we've actually been talking about the whole time is there is this gender essentialization thing that does make me like. little bit uncomfortable, this idea of men and women are just inherently different. Because like we said, with the girl math thing, like, it just kind of perpetuous the idea that like women are just a little bit silly when it comes to finances. And that's actually been used to oppress women a lot. So I'm not saying that they're bad trends. Like I said, I thought that they were really funny. I just, I want to push back against that, right? I mean, obviously, you're not stating it as fact. You're stating it as the societal

thing, right? But I just wanted to say that, like, in my life, the women are much better with money than the men are. And the only reason that men earn more than women, uh, because society's fucked up. No, totally. Like, these are stereotypes. Yeah. But they're not actually real. Yes. Well, they're real because we make them real. I mean, obviously not the stereotype that women are bad with money, but the earning power of men, I guess, becomes a reality because we've made it a reality because we live in a society that where, I don't know, what's the right word, paternalistic or misogynist or both, I don't know. Patriarchical.

Patriarchical, yeah. Can I give you my theory of why men think about the Roman Empire? Please. So my experience is that when I was a kid learning about civilization and society and democracy and all of these ideas that sort of underpin Western society and civilization as we know it, where all those ideas get communicated to you when you're a kid is basically through the history of the Roman Empire and a little bit of the Greeks as well, right? So this is how you understand the beginnings of civilization,

whether it's an aqueduct or democracy or... A political system, yeah. A political system. This is the first and most important version of civilization that we learn about as kids, and maybe not shockingly, because of the ancient world and also the modern world. Yes, I saw Barbie in the movie theater too. The contribution of women to civilization basically doesn't exist in those teachings, right, with some notable exceptions. But overall, the way that history is given to us is as a history of men. the accomplishments of men, the battles of men, the conquests of men, the ideas of men.

And as a boy, I related to that storytelling because I was a boy. I see myself in the story of the Roman Empire, which creates truth in the stereotype being memed. I'm invited to think about this stuff because that's what our collective telling of history says. I'm supposed to be thinking about, about empire, about philosophy, and battles. And on top of that, I'm also thinking about maybe American Empire and colonialism as well. So I relate it to the primordial story of empire that I'm given in Western education, which is Roman, which is Greek, which is fundamentally Western, and also fundamentally male. And it gets reflected in the way we're taught, in the way we think, in the way we grow up, this idea of a man-centric universe of history. And that is why, as a dude, I am always.

thinking about the Roman Empire. Wow, that was so much deeper than the HBO show. You're really... Does that make sense to you two? I think that's beautiful, man, that that's why you would think of it. And I think, sadly, it might be more of the previous answer, the earlier answer that you gave, or how you started your answer, rather, about...

It's just kind of like... getting shit done and women's role in that society being erased or under-recognized. But I don't know. That's where we could be in our own minefield where, you know, men might say, no, that's not it at all. It's that I have such great respect for the XYZ, you know, I don't know. Yeah, that makes sense to me too. And I do think that this meme actually has sparked some more insightful conversations like that about how our gender identity affects our experience of the world, and that might affect what we think about.

But I could also see how these memes could be used to reinforce these very simplistic ideas we have about men versus women in a time where I otherwise feel like, as a society, we're beginning to think a lot more expansively about gender and with a lot more nuance. I haven't actually heard anyone weaponize this meme like that or GirlMath or Girl Dinner, but... But it totally is being weaponized, right? Like, we, because of the world we live in, right? Exactly. If you can weaponize something against women, it probably will be. Well, this is my new Roman Empire, thinking about gender and TikTok memes.

Yeah, thanks, Grace. I would not have thought to connect the Roman Empire memes with Girl Dinner and Boy Dinner and GirlMath and Boy Math, and now I can't not. So thank you for that. Also, I remember the battle that I was talking about. Because we were dying tonight. I know, you guys. I was just thinking again about the Roman Empire and I looked it up. And it is the Caesar.

It's this battle between Caesar and Pompeii, who's his like long time rival. Oh, Pompeii was a person? Yes. For a city? Yes. Believe it or not. Ancient ancient Rome. Yeah.

And it was the battle of farcelain. I think I want to say, farceles. That sounds made up. Yeah, it does, right? Everything's made up. That's the thing about the world. Everything is made up. Let's all go think about not the Roman Empire.

I recommend women's gymnastics. It's really, you should see what they can do. It's really something. Like Roman era women's gymnastics or current era? No, honestly, like the 70s, if you watch an uneven bar routine from the 70s, your mind will be blown. because it's completely different from the uneven bar routines of today.

Just trust me on this. We'll drop a link in the web piece that accompanies this episode. I'll put it in the subreddit too because, like, man, those bar routines. They got bars. Bars got bars? They've got bars. Endless Thread is a production of WBUR in Boston. This episode was produced by me, Grace Tatter, and co-hosted by Ben Brock Johnson and Amory

Severson. Mix and sound design by Emily Jankowski. The rest of our team is Dean Russell, Paul Vycus, Samata Joshi, and Matt Reed. If you have an untold history and unsolved mystery of Roman Empire that you can't get off your mind, hit us up at endless thread at wbUR.org. See you next week.