EntreLeadership - #198: Ian Morgan Cron—How Self-Awareness Makes You More Successful

Episode Date: May 1, 2017

In a recent study of CEOs, it was found that the highest predictor of success is knowing your own strengths and weaknesses. And on this week’s episode, we have the perfect person to help you become more self-aware. Best-selling author and psychologist Ian Morgan Cron joins us to discuss the Enneagram personality type system, which gives insight on who you are, how you think and feel, and why you act the way you do. If you are a leader or want to be one some day, don’t miss this episode.  entreleadership.com/podcast Summit Event Leadership Growth Assessment Tool Infusionsoft's “Free 30 Minute Consultation” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

helping business leaders grow themselves, their team, and their profits. This is the Entree Leadership Podcast. Now, here is your host, Ken Coleman. Broadcasting from the Music City, this is the podcast of leaders, by leaders, for leaders. Thank you so much for joining the conversation. Ian Cron is our feature conversation this episode. He is the author of a book called The Road Back to You, an enneagram journey to self-discovery. Now, the Enneagram is new to me, and we have a little bit of fun in this interview at my expense.

Of course, it's not a big deal at all, but hopefully you are going to learn as Ian breaks me down a bit, and I have no problem being self-aware. I've had to be. And let me tell you something. That's important. We'll get to that in just a second. But, hey, we're going to have some amazing tools that will help you out. One that is specifically tied to our conversation.

That'll come from our Entree leadership team. It's going to help you with self-assessment and those that you're going to you. you want to lead and develop with self-assessment because this is huge. That's going to be the theme of this episode. And of course, our friends that Infusionsoft have a great tool for you as well. So it's always fun to take a personality test, right? It's kind of this, at least it is for people like me. I find it to be fun. Okay, let's see what happens. And so I've done all of them over the time, but I've not done one in quite some time. And so I became aware of Ian's book, The Road Back to you and Daniel Tarty, who is our vice president of Ontario Leadership.

You've heard him on this podcast. He's a big fan of the Enneagram. So, anyway, I took it. And so we'll discuss that in the interview. But here's the challenge I want to make. Because there's a lot of you out there right now who have taken personality tests and your believer in them. And then there are probably an equal amount of you that may have never even taken one before. Do you go, what's the big deal?

Why does it matter? Well, first of all, it's not just about a personality test. There's so many different assessments that are available to you. The idea here is that you have to unlock your full potential. I mean, to me, that's the challenge. I think you are required as a human being to unlock your full potential. That's what it's about. I'm not ashamed to say this.

I believe in a creator. And I believe he created all of us uniquely and wonderfully. That's what scripture says. I believe that. So if there is this duty, if we are duty bound, if we are required to maximize our potential, to unlock it, and then maximize it, then I think we have to take the steps that are necessary to do that. And simply put, I think we have to look at the great thinkers, psychologists who have

studied human behavior. Abraham Maslow is a legendary psychologist. He is an American best known for creating Maslow's hierarchy of needs. So he creates this and he becomes legendary because he breaks down the five needs. It's a pyramid. You've probably seen it. I'll run through it for you because it is a wonderful teaching tool when we look at this idea of self-assessment and self-awareness. So at the base of the pyramid is physiological needs.

needs, food, water, warm, thrust. Then, next is safety needs. That's security and safety. Then love, like intimate relationships, friends, deep, meaningful relationships. Then esteem needs, prestige, that feeling of accomplishment. And then finally, the top of the pyramid, the fifth level, is self-actualization. That's achieving your full potential. So Maslow breaks this down, and it's legendary.

Everybody gets it. I don't think you can really argue it. I think he's dead on. And so I want to share a quote with you from Masll because I think it lays down the challenge for us today. He said, what is necessary to change a person is to change his awareness of himself. Let me say it again. What is necessary to change a person is to change his awareness of himself. So I read that and here's the challenge I wrote down for myself.

and I want you to write it down, to be thinking about it as you listen in in this conversation. And then honestly, this should be something that should be by your mirror every day. This is what I wrote down to myself. My ability to grow is dependent on my ability to self-assess. My ability to grow. So in order for me to reach my potential, to maximize my potential, I have to at the same time, continually maximize the effort to self-assess through assessments, through accountability, people around me that are truth-tellers to make sure that I am constantly aware of my strengths,

my weaknesses, for the whole purpose to maximize my potential. Leaders, this is huge. It's like working out. You know, the weaknesses, I'm a big strengths guy, but I think we've got to know the weaknesses that we have, not to spend our time trying to make ourselves better in areas where we're really weak, but to mitigate, to surround ourselves where people can come alongside and help us in those areas. And then that's in a skill or in a leadership role, but then just personally in the relationships of people who we're bumping into in life, I've got to know the underbelly of my

strengths and my personality side. I've got to know that there's this ugly side that I have to be aware of. And that I have to call out and make sure others know that I'm aware, but I want you to keep me aware. So therefore, I'm maximizing my relationship. So here's the point. The Enneagram is a great tool. This is a fantastic book. But more than anything, as this tribe, this group of amazing men and women who listen to this podcast for the purposes of growing yourself so you can grow your team and ultimately grow your profit, the challenge is don't get going too far. fast and go a long time or get into a pattern where you're not constantly self-assessing. That's so important.

Here's my conversation with Ian Crum. Well, this is a real treat. We did a Facebook live a little bit earlier this morning. And so here we are in studio, Ian. This is going to be a lot of fun. So let's start with, instead of breaking down Enneagram and all the other different types of assessments that have been around a long time, you're an expert in this. We'll get to this and the book, The Road, Back to you.

But let's start with, we've got leaders and high performers that are listening in here. Why is self-awareness? Why an assessment like this? Why is it so important that you've dedicated so much of your life and you're helping so many leaders and high performers? What's the huge, you got to understand why it's so important. What would you say? Cornell University recently did a research study. They took 72 CEOs of companies whose bottom line was anywhere from $50 million to $5 billion.

Wow. The highest predictor of success was self-awareness across the board. Hello. So what does that tell you? Self-awareness is the capacity to understand, to self-regulate and monitor what's happening inside your inner world as you relate to yourself and to other people during the course of a day. If you're a leader and you don't have self-awareness, you are an accident looking for an intersection all day long. You're just banging guardrail to guardrail through people's

lives and making those kinds of decisions that are, you know, going to be troubled down the road for you. And the irony is if we're not self-aware, everyone else is aware. Oh, my gosh. They're aware of us. They're aware of our strengths. They're aware of our weaknesses, triggers, all those things. And if we're not aware, we're the only one not invited to the party. That is absolutely right. And if you don't have an awareness of what your strengths and weaknesses are, you won't have the capacity to fill in the gaps around you with other types, right? Because here's the deal, right? Most types, particularly let's say three, sevens and eights, and I got a

suspicion you're one of those three. We will reveal that shortly. Yes. Yes. Well, the problem is they tend to hire people who are mirrors of themselves. Why? Well, I think part of it is a little bit of narcissism, right? I think the other

piece of it is that we just tend to hire people who have the same pair of glasses on, seeing the world that we do, because we think, well, that person's qualified. Right. But let's say, for example, you're a three, a performer and the achiever, you're a hard driver, or a seven, right? The big ID8 or great rocket booster front end of a project. If you don't have a six in the room, who's the loyal skeptic, who every now and then will raise their hand and go,

do you understand the risks involved if you just drive forward in automatic self as a three or a seven or an eight, man, you've got to have somebody who's tapping the brakes on your team every now and then. If you just hire people like yourself, you're in trouble. That's right. And those people that hire people like themselves, it said, oh, well, they see it the way I see it. Therefore, you know, and that speaks to, we're allowing our weaknesses of that personality type to drive some very important decisions because we don't, you know, if we don't want to deal with the mess or somebody who doesn't think the way we do. Certainly when you're talking about the 3, 7, and 8. All right, so we'll reveal this because we're going to play with this and have some real fun. And literally teach using me as an example. But I took the Enneagram as an, and I came out as an eight. However, we've had a lot of conversation this morning. And so using me as the example, while I got an eight, of course, now I've got to dive into the book and check it all out, there are touches of each number is what you said. If I said that right. So I want you to explain that.

I'm not just a eight, that's it, no discussion. Explain how I need to be looking at this now. Right. So let's just, can I just do a real quick through of all nine numbers? Yeah, I want you to. Okay. Because you told me, hey, you're not just an eight. Right.

I want you to explain that. Walk us through it. Absolutely. So everybody has characteristic features of every single number on the Antigram. There are nine personality styles. Okay. One, the perfectionists need to get things right. Need to be perfect, highly detail-oriented, analytical.

Every number, by the way, in the healthy range, fantastic contributors, right? One, the perfectionist. Two, the helper. These are people who help an organization that has the soft skills, the ability to communicate a culture of caring. and support. Three, the performer, person for whom success, accomplishing tasks, nailing them, moving on to the next one is critically important.

Great fear of failure. Four, is the individualist, a human being that is highly artistic, very, very sensitive. As a leader tends to be highly intuitive, has an incredible ability to bring together teams built around collaboration versus competition. Five, the individualist. That's a person who's just an aggregator of tremendous amounts of information,

have tremendous mastery of knowledge. These are information junkies. Worst thing that ever happened to a five was the internet. They just go down the wormhole, and I'm just telling you, it's a nightmare. They ain't coming back unless it's with something real interesting. Six, the loyal skeptic, these are what we believe are the greatest number of people

in the population are probably sixes. Sixes have an ability to be problem solvers. They're worst-case scenario thinkers, right? Okay. They are just scanning the horizon all time, looking for where the problems are. great in risk management. You've got to have a six on your team, I'm telling you.

Sevens, the enthusiast, incredible ideators. Give them a blackboard, you know, and a man, I'll tell you what, they'll come up with one idea after another. Keep them out of management. These are people who need to be right up front doing their thing, but they have a very short attention span. They've really got to keep, you've got to keep them interested, or they're going to eat your house down to the studs eventually.

Eight's the Challenger. aggressive, domineering, blunt to a fault. They are steamrollers. They're not diplomats. But they are strategy masters and big action people. Love to take big action. Nine, the peacemaker wants to avoid conflict at all costs. But within an organization, a peacemaker is someone who can reconcile,

irreconcilable differences between people like nobody's business. All these nine numbers, when they're healthy? Fantastic. average average and then unhealthy that means they're really lacking self-awareness they're causing problems so that's a good fast all review all right so that's great so a couple things before we we'll dive into to how kind of some of the things that we were talking about with me and see how it all works together a couple of things when looking at this and this is what your book does so beautifully the road back to you you walk us through the healthy version that average

And by the way, what's beautiful of that? None of us want to be average. Right. Right? Yeah. I mean, when was the last time, Ian, you asked your wife, hey, listen, you want to go to an average restaurant? No. Right. Right.

Mediocrity is not my goal. Right. And then that unhealthy level. Yes. And here's what we were talking about off air. Certainly, and I was talking about my personality type because sometimes it's almost like it's Jekyll Hyde. Yes.

My wife would somewhere in Middle Tennessee, my wife heard that. She perked up and she said amen. She didn't know what she said amen to, but she just sensed it. But the reality is, is that we, can move from healthy to unhealthy really quickly and it's not just my personality type. That's all of us. You bet it is. In nanosecond.

In a nanosecond. So if you lack self-awareness, you are living perpetually in reactivity. It's that... Oh, I like that. It's just automatic self. A friend of mine puts it this way. It's like being... People won't remember this, but think of it, remember in Great Britain.

It's like being trapped in a phone booth with a hornet. Yes. You know what I mean? An angry wasp. You're just kind of banging around and swatting in every direction, right? You're just living out of the... automatic, repetitious, predictable, habitual behaviors of your type without any idea of what it's doing to other people, right? Now, when you're healthy, instead of having a tiny crack in the sidewalk,

you know, between stimulus and reactivity, you get to open up that space and then you have the ability to say, what's happening right now in this moment, how is this person understanding me, how can I best relate to this person to get the optimal results from them, and to keep our relationship as great as possible. The automatic self, I love how you put that. And I want to ask a question because we're not condemning, judging, trying to avoid or blot out our automatic self. We're trying to mitigate it because there are times where that automatic self is good and on point.

I want you to just speak to that because there's this auto kind of, that's kind of where we're at, but we have to protect ourselves, whether it be with people in the professional setting or triggers in an emotional setting. I want you to just speak to that because it doesn't mean. that your automatic self is bad, it just means you need to be so aware of it to where it can skew one way or the other, correct? Right. So one of the expressions that I use with people all the time is you can't change the way

that people see, but you can change what they do with what they see. Oh, I like that. Right? That's good. So, yeah, you're right. You got a personality. Every personality when it's healthy is fantastic, and you want to have representatives, and particularly in certain industries, for example, you want to have, you know, weighted

in a particular direction if need be. But you want to have people on your team who can correct the excesses of the automatic self of everybody else on the team. So you create a matrix right there of people who are bringing their best to the table, particularly in age when we have so much more collaboration happening because of technology and teamwork because of technology. All right. So let's look at, we're going to pick on me because we're really want to hold.

Really? Do you want to do that right now? Yeah. Because it's okay. There's so much to work with. And here's what I want the audience to do. I want you to walk me through what an audience member who's listening in here would do with their number and then go through the book. Because the book is the big part of it.

It really begins to unpack it. You can't just rely on what the test comes back at. Yes. So I took the test over the weekend, came back in eight. Yeah, we've been talking this morning, and I'm just soaking you up, asking you a million questions. Poor guy. And you mentioned that maybe some seven as well, even though I came at eight. So eight's the challenger.

And then, but I also certainly identify with the performer. That's a big part of me. I'm not task-oriented. I don't enjoy just marking task off. I like big ideas, big bold vision. One thing that irritates me is when we're in that mode, people that rubbed me wrong are people that immediately tell me three reasons why it can't be done. Exactly. That's very seven-ish.

And it's three, seven and eight are the three months. most aggressive numbers on the anagram. Okay. They are self-extending people. They move actually a little bit, not, don't hear this the wrong way. Oh, I won't. They move against people. Right.

Some people withdraw. And then there are some people who move alongside people. But three sevens and eights, man, they go right at people. Yeah. If I bump into somebody, I find that to just be. It's a context port. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, if you're an eight, okay. If you were in eight. That's what it said. Okay. Well, if you were in eight, I would tell you that you are aggressive, it's your worst, right? No question. Okay. You are aggressive, assertive, domineering. People experience you as being overly blunt. You're somebody who runs people over sometimes on route to the goal, but you're a big strategy, big action person. When you walk in a room, if you're in eight, everybody in the room's head turns because they can just feel the intensity radiating off you as a person.

They will experience it as anger, which will confuse you when they say, why are you so angry? And you'll be like, what are you talking about? I'm not angry. I'm just, you know, doing my thing, right? It's funny, I've had people come up to me strangers out of live events or something like that and walked past you a hall. I thought, you okay? Yeah. And my brow is furrowed.

I'm thinking about something super intense. Okay, so I'm shocked. Oh, fine. Oh, AIDS are. I must have been thinking about something. Aides feel like they are constantly misunderstood. Because they're like, you know, like, what do you mean? I'm not angry. I'm just honest. Well, you can't take honest. Right. Right. And so for an eight, actually conflict feels like connection.

Intimid. What feels like intimidation to other people to the eight feels like intimacy. All right. Explain that. Well, so for example, one of my favorite expressions about it is they could start an argument in an empty house. You know what I'm saying? Because they just love the energy that happens. with people, will they walk in a room? They're, often when I'm counseling or doing consulting work, I'll say, pay attention to what you pay attention to. When you walk into a room, an eight automatically starts looking around saying,

where's the power in the room? Because I want to go over toward that power, and I want to test it a little bit. I want to push it a little bit. I want to debate with it a little bit because I want to figure out if that person's trustworthy. And I know that in conflict with another person or in a debate with another person, they'll often show their hand if there's a hidden agenda. You see that? Interesting.

But they really want to come in the room and be in control. That's a very important feature of eights. They want to be in control. So every number, and this is how it's different than a lot of these other tests, you cannot base trying to figure out what your number is on the basis of just traits or characteristic. That's right. That's important. Very important.

Because you're saying some things that I go, well, that's not me. I may be more of a seven on that particular issue. Right. Which may mean that you're an eight with a seven wing. Okay. So if you were an eight, you'd have a nine wing or a seven wing. All those wings mean, think of them like salt and pepper. Okay.

You just have sort of access to a little bit of the traits of those other numbers. Okay. And sometimes, particularly with an eight and with a three and a four, those wings make a big, big difference in how you express yourself and how your personality manifests itself in different settings. So let's stay there for more. All right. Because I think I'm tracking with you on the seven. I think my wing is a seven. And so explain, we've been talking about the eight a little bit, explain the seven.

For purposes of me going, okay, because there are moments where that eight made total sense. Sure. Sevens are enthusiasts. They're motivated actually by the desire to avoid psychological and emotional pain. And eight is motivated by the need to be in control and to really kind of hide the more softer, tender qualities that they hold inside. And I'm telling you, eights, even though they present with a very hard outer shell, they got a real squeak. Pretty squishy middle. Interesting. Okay. Very squishy middle. All right. So again, folks, this is for you to walk through the exercise here. So for me, certainly that desire to be in control is a huge part of me at times. However, when I may step over and step on toes or something like that, certainly with my wife. Yes. Okay. Yeah. I feel terrible. And so I got a little bit of people pleaser in me. Is that that seven when you're saying they want to avoid the psychological pain? Like when I'm, I know I'm the big jerk.

It eats me alive. Yes. Yet in the moment, I stepped right into it. Yeah, absolutely. So you might be, and I never type people because it's up to you to decide. Sure, sure. You're the only person who can know for sure what your number is once you've done the research. Yeah.

I just want you to help us, you know, using easy example. So if you were an eight, and this is the great thing about the anagram, it doesn't put you in a box. Right. It actually tells you the box you're in and how to get out of it. Nice. Right. You're already in a box. Don't fool yourself.

Yes, right. You're already in one. We're going to try and get you out of it and be more self-aware, so you're not living in it in that automatic self doing dumb stuff all the time. Right. Eights, when they're feeling secure and confident, act more like twos, which are the givers and the helpers. Interesting. And they don't like relational discord. They want to make sure it's very important to it, too, that relationships are intact.

That's certainly big to me. So you will always go back and circle back to say, are we good? Yeah, I want to fix it. Are we good? Absolutely. You're nail them. Yeah, so we have a woman who's a very great sort of master of the enneagram. She tells a great story about an NFL football player.

He was a two, if you can believe it. Most people, so most people wouldn't believe this, right? But he would tackle some guy, and then he'd reach his hand down and help him up. And this is what he always would say. He said, we good? Are we good? He just knocked their head off. Just knocked their head off.

But then he'd be like, okay, I did my job, but are we good? That's great. Yeah. So. I resonate with that. And see, that's the whole point, folks, and why we're kind of playing around here. This is beautiful because it allows you to look down the story. scale. And back to your, you know, earlier point, we all have touches of these numbers within us.

Oh, all of them. And it's so terrific for understanding how we exist in that box, how do we take ourselves out, right? Make sure we put ourselves in a box and get outside of that box and to begin to work with people. Let's talk the different facets of relationships here, because, Ian, I don't want us to forget that these people that are listening in here are also spouses. Yes. Parents. Yes. They're not just professionals. That's right. So let's go home. All right. The Enneagram in marriage. Mm-hmm.

How do we make this thing come alive? It's a game changer. I'm just telling you right now, when I first started studying the Enigram six years ago, we were just becoming empty nesters, and that's a big passage. I imagine. That's a really big passage.

And then, you know, after having three, raised three kids, you know, it's hard not to wake up when you got an empty house to go, now, who are you again? Right. Because we've spent our whole last 20 years or whatever it is, focusing on these three other human beings in the house.

At the same time, we learned the Enneagram, and it was like I met a brand new person, because I realized my wife, who's a nine, a peacemaker, sees the world entirely different than I do. And now, because I know that, I can help her be her best. She knows that I'm a four of the individualist. She knows when I'm going down the slippery slope into automatic self-mode, and I'm not doing well. And she can say to me, hey, you know what? I'm starting to feel the not so great four thing going on. And now, by the way, it's not personal.

Now we both agree what a four looks like when they're not doing well, what a nine looks like when they're not doing well. So it's kind of outside of us and we're talking about this thing going on that's not going well. That's interesting. Without actually prosecuting each other for being bad personally. It takes the personal touch out of it. You bet.

You're not attacking me. You're saying, hey, I know you're a four. That's right. Okay. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. And by the way, I also like the word personality style.

Style. Versus type. Because type always feels to me like you'd really locking somebody into something. That's fair. I see that. So I like style. Style. It's a little softer around the edges than type.

Okay. Gives me a little wiggle room to recognize that. You know, when people complain about saying, well, you know, are you saying there's only nine types of people in the world of seven billion people? I tell them, well, no, it's like going to the paint aisle at Home Depot. You know, you realize, you know, oh, my gosh, there's not just one. red. There's an infinite number of shades of red. And that means that they're within each type. Guess what? You are your own hue or contrast or color. That's a great point. Within each type.

So guess what? Your mother didn't lie when she said you are that unique little snowflake. Oh boy, we have too many snowflakes around here. But that's a whole other conversation. All right. So from the spousal standpoint, we kind of got a really nice idea of how we can use this. Yes. Let's talk about parenting, and I'm really being selfish here because I'm thrilled to find out you raise three. Stacey and I are raising three. 11, 9, and 8. Yeah. We got a ways to go, pal.

Yes, you do. But it's going to go quick. How can we be the best parents using our Enneagram style? Number one, do your own work first. Do your own work on yourself. Be healthy within your own number. Model it for your kids. Now, your kids are still pretty little.

I would never encourage somebody to label their kid, you know, until later on. Because otherwise, kids will pick up on what you perceive them to be, and they will actually begin to act like that to ensure that they're going to keep your approval and pleasure in them. Great point. Okay. So, but you'll get glimmers. Like, I have a daughter who's an eight. I'm telling you, she came out like an eight.

She came out, she just challenging the world, man. I'm just telling you. I love it. I got a seven. He came out laughing, just enthusiastic and having a ball, curious about everything, you know. And I have a nine, and she just was a perfect little. sleeper, my little peacemaker, man. She was fantastic. So here's what it gives you. Eventually what it gives you is some insight into the growth edge for each of your kids. But if all you do is

label them, right, then you're not giving space for them to really grow into the person that God wants them to be. You're going to try and make them into the person you want them to be. And that's a really big mistake. Really big mistake. But I'm going to tell you something, when my kids got into later teens, knowing the an enneagram was an enormous advantage, enormous. Because I knew where their growth edges were. I knew them with their strengths and what their liabilities were. And I don't know a better system for helping you really raise the kids that they are in the most healthy way they can be. Now, you've said a term a couple times in that answer, and I'm curious about it. Growth edges. Yeah.

What is that? I think I know what that means, but I really like it. What does that mean growth edges? Because I think that applies to us and the people we're leading and working alongside of as well, not just our kids. Oh, man, absolutely. Well, you know, we all have deficits. We all have blind spots. We all have places in our lives where, you know, we are really unaware of the way that we are affecting other people and, you know, where we really have to grow in terms of self-awareness. You know, my wife will tell me things about myself. and I'll be like, no, that's not true. That's no, come on. Seriously, I never do that. And then about a day later, I'll think to myself, you know what? She's right. She's absolutely right. That is a growth edge for me.

Now, you can't have that growth edge unless you have self-awareness to start. And then the capacity to take that self-knowledge and turn it into self-observation in real time so that, for example, right now, I can self-observe during the middle of this thing. That's not self-absorption. It's not navel-gazing. I just know in real time now because I'm so familiar with this system, hey man, you're in a good space right now. You're really being yourself, right?

And I can tell if I'm starting to migrate toward the not-so-healthy side of my personality style and then start to make different choices because I have that self-knowledge. And when you get this, so you get your test results, then you go through the book and you dive in and you begin to apply it. Based on what you just said there,

when you can be self-aware in the moment. That's what we're going for here. Yes. When you can begin to see, give me some of the mitigating circumstances. Obviously, people can kind of knock us off that healthy into mediocre or unhealthy. What else? Besides people, certainly circumstances, maybe types of moments we get ourselves in that just the flow of life. You get into high stress or fearful.

Just let's lay out several things because I think it might help us. Yes. as we begin to look at this conversation holistically to make a list, because I'm thinking of myself right now, I'm going, okay, impatient, moments where I'm impatient, oh, boy, that's a trigger. I'm thinking difficult people or certain people that just personality-wise just naturally clash. But if you're in eight, you're probably the most difficult number on the enagram sometimes. Now, we all can be. That's right. Right. But being, you're also the most high energy, if you're in it, You are the most high energy, intense, life-eating human being on the Antigram.

You are 200 and 40-40 volts. All eight other numbers, we're 120. Right. You're 240. Right. If you don't know that, you're going to come in a room and just blow it up all the time. That's right. That's a growth edge for you.

That's right. That's exactly right. Now, one of the great things about the Enigram, unlike Strengths Finder's disc, all these other wonderful tools that are out there and available to us, the MBTI. It takes into account that the human personality is. fluid and adaptable. It's adaptable. It's not static. It's not monolithic. It moves all the time. Healthy, average, unhealthy. Also, where you go in stress and where you go when you're feeling secure. So you're an eight, right? When you're... Eight, seven. I'm not willing to say I'm a complete eight.

Well, just for the sake of illustration. Yeah, let's have fun of it. Sure, sure, sure, sure. You, when you're healthy, are going to start acting more like a helper. You're going to be kinder, more aware of other people's feelings, attuned to other people's feelings, and you'll be able to soften that aggression when necessary. When you're feeling good, you don't have to take over the room. That's exactly right. When you're unhealthy, you're going to go to a five. You're going to start acting like a five. You're going to get broody, quiet. You're going to withdraw. You're going to go out and get data, and you're going to make a case. You're going to make a case, and you're going to do something that's very unusual for you. You're going to withdraw for a little while. Do you see how that

self-awareness can help you. Oh, spot on. You're just like, okay, now I know it's happening. I'm backing away from people. I'm going to go get my data and I'm coming back. Yes. I'm going to knock the doors over once I'm ready. Oh, yeah.

I'm going to withdraw for just a little bit and then I'm going to come blowing back in here like that's beautiful. Like a train. That's right. So back to some of those things, though. So what are the types of things that just whatever your number are? We need to be aware of things that are triggers. Sure.

Absolutely. So we all have activators. right we all have things that historically as we look in our rearview mirror we can see the wreckage of when certain things got activated in us and we acted impulsively inside of our number that's right and those are the things we want to avoid right so you know for a one for example the perfectionist what's going to activate them making mistakes somebody that just doesn't even care about the details right sloppy oh my gosh man a one is going to look at that and they are going to think irresponsible not detail oriented enough

not conscientious, not bringing their A game, right? A two is going to be activated by people who are insensitive, by people who don't appreciate them. Oh boy, twos want to be appreciated. If they're not appreciated, you're going to activate them. Threes, hate detail. I'm just telling you, man, they are tell and sell people. I just did a Fortune 500 company consultancy, and they said the following Monday, they were in a data meeting. They were looking at a date about the company.

A three raised his hand. He said, can I go and do someone replace me with a one? I need a one in here That is fantastic I've had that feeling before I just didn't know how to say it that way Yeah well this is the great thing Within organizations

Once you have a common vocabulary And I don't tell people I want you to walk around type I call that the anagram Taliban You know people get this information And they just go crazy on it You know they just want to talk about it like all the time It's like the old coloring books

That we grew up with the paint by numbers Or color by numbers It says you walk through life looking at everybody And they're a number Yeah exactly don't do that Yeah that's bad You know people are more mysterious and, you know, and fantastic than that, right?

George Box once said the statistician, all models are wrong, but some are useful. And that's what the enneagram is. That's a great statement. Right? It's, you know, it's not perfect. It's primitive and crude when you're talking about human beings, but man, is it useful?

So when you have a knowledge of what's the activator for different people, do you see how much better you can leave them? Absolutely, yeah. And once you know what their strengths and liabilities are in general, right? When to bring them into a meeting, when to leave them out of a meeting. Like don't bring a six, the loyal skeptic, into an ideation meeting when you're doing the big dream stuff because that guy or gal is going to raise their hand and say, I have a concern. What happens if this happens? And all the three, sevens and eights in the room are going to go, ah, you just, you just rained on the parade that we were having.

Bring him in on the third meeting when you need a risk assessment thing done. Right. Right. Okay. So if you're an eight, unless you're talking to another eight, you need to really, really, think how you're going to communicate something. Yes. That's the issue.

You can't just go default mode. No. But let me ask you on this, do eights clash a lot? Yes. Because it's like they're trying to one up each other to get to the top of the tank. You know what I mean? Like turtles trying to crawl on top of each other. Like I'm the most powerful guy.

I mean, does that happen? Yeah, there's little alpha dog stuff going on. I think so. I've seen that. Oh, man. Who's the big dog on the porch? That's who they want to be. And they want to establish themselves as the big dog on the porch.

Now, I will tell you, every number of this underlying motivation, which is so important, and this is something that, you know, we've got to own. We just got to own this truth about ourselves, these underlying motivations. For an eight, you see a world in which only the strong survive and the weak get taken advantage of. And you want to avoid, you believe that you confuse actually vulnerability with weakness. You don't want to show that softer side to people in general, because once they know your soft side, they could leverage it and use it against you. You want to stab yourself as the power in the room.

So there's a little bit of defensiveness going on there, you know, just to... I think that's very insightful. Well, I think that's very insightful because when you said that, I went back to my test Sunday night. So it's been two days, folks, since I took it. Right. That was one of the questions. Either agree or disagree, and the statement was exactly what you said that only the strong

survived the week get taken advantage of. And you know what I said. What did you say? I agree. Yeah. On hold. Now, I was brain off, not thinking. I've taken a lot of assessment tests.

So I'm at a point where I just go with, boom, I don't think about it. I don't want to try to, I just go gut instinct, you know. Well, that's because you're an eight, my friend. Yeah, I know. You do everything from the gut. Well, that is true. You do everything from the gut. If you were a five, six, or a seven, you would do everything from your head.

If you were two, three, and four, you would do everything from your heart. Two, threes, and fours to do things based on feelings. Five, six, and sevens would be based on fear. Like, what could go wrong or how do I manage fear? Eight, nines and one. man, it's from the hip. It's I just respond to life from the hip. Yeah.

Do you see how each of those could be a gift and a liability? Well, there's no question about it. And to your point, though, as I've unpacked this and started reading the book over the weekend, there are other numbers that I certainly have. You know what I mean? It's true because, as I was telling you, using another assessment profile, it's almost Jackal Hyde. Yes.

So what the N-Agram reveals to you is, what's best about you is what's worst about you, and what's worst about you is what's best about you. Which is so freeing when you really embrace that. Absolutely. It's just a matter of saying, what side do I want to live on most of the time? That's right. And so with the self-awareness piece, you can actually in real time begin to see yourself when you're disintegrating. Right?

You're losing integration. You're starting to fall down the hill. And you can say once you know that, now, you know, what Shakespeare said, he said there's no prison more secure than the one you don't. know you're in. Wow. Okay, say that again because some people need to write that down. Okay, there is no prison more powerful than the one you don't know you're in. Okay? That's true. So once you know, right, automatic self is you're in the prison. That's right. You're just living, lack of self-awareness. Just kind of wandering around, just, you know, like I like to say, banging guardrail to guard rail right through your life. But once

you know the quote unquote prison or box that you've been living in, you can make different choices and their choices based on freedom. Now you got freedom to say, I don't have to live that way. As an eight, I can choose in this moment to start to listen to other people, not to roll them over, to collaborate, to be somebody who doesn't always have to be right, to not be a black and white thinker, which eights tend to be. It's either right or wrong, friend or foe, good or bad. You can say, no, I can be more nuanced. Guess what? Gray is a color. Gray is a color. It's not always black and white. Let's talk about teammates.

Yes. So not even leader to team. Teamate to teammate, how this is such a great tool. Okay. So there's a woman who works in the area of visual impairment with children. I think it's a Dallas Children's Hospital. And she's a woman who does support groups for parents whose children had just been diagnosed at a very young age with visual impairment, right? serious visual impairment. And the first episode,

or their first meeting, what she does is she hands out glasses that she had an optometrist dude that mimic the actual condition that their children have. And at the same time, she says to them, well, put those glasses on.

And they all put them on. What do you think the first thing that happens is? I'm going to guess they're all just like, aha, it's an unbelievable moment. They burst into tears. Yeah, they can't believe

what they've been missing. They had no idea that that's how their child saw the world. Yeah. So here's the anagram. does. It teaches you that people, there are at least, I'm not going to say this is all of it, right? Sure. But there are at least nine ways of seeing the world. We all assume that everybody's looking at the world and processing information and reacted to it precisely the same way that we are.

And so we actually look at people like they're crazy or dumb half the time or clueless because they don't see it like we do, right? Oh man, you're all over my toes. Would you back up, please? I can't, man. I can't because there is a piece of me that does like to move forward toward people and help them out a little bit, right? So here's a deal. Once you understand that all of your team members, somewhere are going to see the world like you do if they share your personality style, but lots are not. So once you know that, you're going to be able to self-regulate your behavior to speak into their lives in the most efficient and productive way possible. What that will do, just one of the many things that will do, is it will take the drag coefficients off of your team, the things that

slow it down. Like I'll know, for example, your communication style. Your communication style is barking. Yeah. Right? If I think I know what you mean by barking, which is it's pretty loud, it's very clear. Declarative. And it moves quickly. A lot of exclamation marks in your life. I'm not a fuzzy guy. In fact, on your gravestone, we could just put an exclamation mark. That's all that would be needed in the birthday. It's just an exclamation mark. I actually think that's a great idea. Write it down and you feel free, but I want 10%. All right. So ones, right, they tend to be teaching but when they get unhealthy, it turns to preaching.

That kind of finger-wagging preaching thing, right? Okay. A two, well, you know, they can kind of move toward flattery. They can kind of like, they want to butter you up, they want you to appreciate them and love on them, right? Three is going to be salesmen's promotion, man. And a lot of times it's self-promotion when it's not real healthy, right? Uh-oh, you're pointing towards yourself.

I think there's no question that self-promoters, when they're unhealthy, it goes too far. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I mean, name-dropping. Yeah. Yeah, look, just too much too soon, pushing it hard, right? You just got to be very careful there. Certainly when you're the product.

That's what I had to fight early on in my career. Okay. Right? Because I was not pitching a product. I was pitching me. Yes. Like, I want to be on radio. I want to be on television.

Yes. So you've got to be very careful. That was a maturity thing I had to learn, not to push too hard sometimes. Right. Because it comes across the wrong way. Right. My heart and motives were good, but because I was the product, I'm pushing me. and then it skews a little bit towards overconfidence and arrogance, you've got to pull that back.

Yeah, you do. Early on in my career, begin to realize it because you're the product. Right. But a salesperson can do the same thing, even if they're not pitching themselves. Yes, they can. But there's where the self-awareness piece comes in. Right. Right.

If you're self-aware, you're realizing in the moment, you know what, I'm trying to be admired here more than, more than I'm trying to sell something that's going to help people. Yeah. And that's not a good space. I got to get out of that space and move toward putting the focus on what I'm selling. Now, by the way, do you see how important this is when you're working with customers? Oh, for sure. If you get a sense of who they are, then now you can speak into, speak a language once you become fluent in the language of the Enneagram that is going to speak to their needs faster and more efficiently than if you're kind of

guessing what is this person looking for or needing, you know, or whatever else. you're going to be able to custom craft the message that you have to them knowing, okay, well, this person sees the world this way. Okay? I got to take that lens into account, right? Are you asserting that we can read this book, get familiar with Enigram, and then in dealing with customers, be able to pick up on what they are pretty quickly? I think you've got to be around the Antigram and really, really study it. Right. It's a pretty complicated, let me put it this way.

You can know a little bit about the Enigram. and it'll significantly move a needle in the way that you relate to yourself and to the world. But to really get to that next level of going deep, you've got to do some research and study because it can be a fairly complex system. Right. So then how do we do what we're talking about? Because I just want to follow up on it. I think you created some questions in the minds of our listeners, which is, okay, well, Ian, how do I get my customers on the same page? Do you send them the assessment? Say, hey, take this? No, I think what you do, because you don't want to type other people. Right. You want other people. But you do develop an intuition. That's where I'm going. Okay. Okay, you develop an intuition, and you might just test your intuition, and then, for example, this morning when we first met, you started describing yourself, I started to get an intuition. I would not be presumptuous to the point that I say, okay, you're this.

Right. That's not my job. The only person who can know for sure with their personality style is you. For you to get to it, you got to do your research and care enough about knowing yourself. That's right. To do the work of figuring out who you are. Once you have that baseline information and you know yourself, I think that's a lot. That's a big step forward.

Sure. Right. But you're going to have to do a lot more work to be able to be the kind of person you can walk into the room, spend 10 minutes with somebody and begin to sense. I think I know where we are. That's right. We are all nine numbers, to be clear. Yeah, that's a key point. Right.

We have all the characteristics and traits associated with every single one of those numbers. But we have one that from the time we are a little bitty person that we just default to. It's like we just click in. to it, you know, most of the time. That's, that's gravitationally pulled toward one particular number. We lock in there on automatic. This is just wisdom, man. This is just, I can stand back for myself, observe in the moment, who, who am I? What am I doing? Why am I doing it? What's motivating me? What's driving me right now? When you know that, then I'm just telling you, your presence in the world will be additive, not subtractive. That's beautiful. That's it. That's what I'm thinking. I've got to be

able to float, hover above and go, all right, I'm sensing that maybe I was really harsh ate there. And now I've got 40 minutes left in this meeting to dial that back. Right. And do you see how that's not navel gazing? That's not self-absorption or being, you know, egotistic. No, I'm thinking about others. How am I coming across to others? Precisely. How can I live in the world as a more compassionate, kind, aware, wise person so that I can actually bring the best out in myself and call it forth in the people that I'm around all the time? That's so rich. Because, you know, I'm looking at myself again.

My personality speed, speed, speed, you know, move through life. I'm just always in a hurry. I like that pace. Right. But we can't do that with people. You just can't. No, no. And I just don't think that's the way that we're going to make the world that we want.

That's good. And we live in a world right now that is so highly reactive where there is no self-awareness. People just bang. You go on social media. You got an opinion. People, I mean, it's amazing to me. People just form an opinion and shoot it. Oh, yeah.

The bravery behind a keyboard is unbelievable. Oh, my gosh. And do you see how reactivity gets us into trouble? We want to be people who are responsive, not reactive. Okay, there it is. We're going to pause there, folks. That's the gold. We want to be responsive.

That's what I want. Yeah, man. Certainly what I want with my wife and my kids and my coworkers. Life's just not as fun. No. When you're having to fix stuff all the time because you just didn't have the discipline, and that's the big thing here, is to really be disciplined to read this book to really play this thing out.

I love what you said earlier. It's good stuff. All right, you were going to ask me something. Okay. I'm going to ask you three underlying motivations here. Oh, I love this. Okay. Are you ready?

Do you have a need to be admired to be perceived by others as successful and avoid failure at all costs? That's one option, okay? Second one would be, do you have a need to have stimulating fun adventures for always living in the future, thinking about the next great thing and avoid psychological and emotional pain. You just feel uncomfortable. You don't want to be bored, stuck, in routine, feeling sad, or you just want to avoid all those things at all costs? Or are you a person who wants to be in control in the room? You're a person who is a big strategic thinker, more of a steamroller,

running people over, and you're doing it because you want to avoid people seeing your soft side and then leveraging it against you in a way that might be betrayal or feeling like you're out of control. And you want me to identify the one that... Which one of those do you most closely identified one of those motivations. Number two. The seven. All right, well, I would say to you then, if you identify with that underlying motivation, then chances are you're more of a seven, and I would say, based on what I know of you in the little bit of time that we've been here, that chances are you have an eight wing because you

have that aggressive side. No question. Right? No question. So that eight flavors the dominant number for you, which is seven, but you have that aggressive dimension that really kind of color. Now, I'll just be honestly and tell you that when you're, you're, you're, you're, You're unhealthy, you're the most reckless number on the anagram.

That's right. The eight, no question. Well, if you're a seven with that eight wing, you'll take risks that other people will not take. So you're going to need a six somewhere in your life. Someone's going to be able to tap the brakes with you that you're going to respect. You know, a mentor who's going to say to you, whoa, whoa, whoa, before you make that decision, why don't you count the cost? No question.

And fortunately, I have great friends and teammates that are always in that role, which is huge. Yeah, that's great. That's interesting. I love that you said those three questions. And I want to be really, of course, I was honest, but I want folks to understand. I identified a lot with all three of those. I had to really think which one in my soul. Yeah. That when I lay down at night, I want that to be said about me. And it's that I hate the bad eight in me. I love my intensity. It drives me. Oh. That's why I'm so future driven. But I don't like the intensity when it hurts. hurts others. Right. It really makes me sick. So if I were, I just met you. I know that you're in a, let's say, okay? So I would know that if you powered up on me, okay, if you're an eight, all right, if you powered up on me, I know better than to be diplomatic. I'm going to push against you at the same degree of energy that you push at me because I know that it's not actually anger that you, it's not anger. It's just you get energy from someone pushing back on you

with the same degree of intensity that you're pushing on them. For you, conflict is connection. Yes. It's not intimidation. It's intimacy. Now, once a two works for you or someone who's one knows that about you, they're not going to take it personally. They're not going to be like, if you come blowing through the room,

you know, firing your guns in every direction, they're just going to roll their eyes a little bit. They'll respect you. I'm not giving them permission to not respect you as their leader, but they're just not going to take it to heart. They're going to know, all right, he's just in automatic self mode right now, And I'm just going to get out of the way until he gets himself healthy. He doesn't even realize at this moment how he's coming across or just hasn't thought about enough to care.

No, right. But I also know well enough that what you need more than anything else at that moment is, you need me to stand up to you to the same degree. And you'll respect me now. Huge point right here. But if I go into like, hey, man, listen, this is what I was trying to do and blah, blah, blah, and get all diplomatic, you're going to be like, you're invisible. When you got enough moxie to come in here and meet me the way that I want to be met, then we can do business. Let me add something to that, too. Anybody who's got eights in their life.

It also snaps me out of the eight. Is that fair? Say that again now. So you were nailing it. Right. Okay, I'm thinking conflict moments. So my point is you're saying, stand up to the eight, come back strong at them. They're not seeing it as a personal attack or disrespect.

They're going, oh, okay. You're pushing me back. And what I'm saying is just being honest about me. I find that when people come back at the same level when I'm in that intense moment, it actually begins to snap me out of it. Yeah, sure. I realize, why is that person acting that way? Right.

And then I quickly realized, I just ramped them up and they're going, back off, Buster. Yeah. You're in my face. I mean, I'm not, I don't have these yelling. I'm not like, this is not this extreme, but I'm trying to just get to the raw emotion of it, that it kind of snaps me out of it. I know for Stacey, she's adjusted that way. And she'll quickly, and then I, whoa, I don't want to talk that way to Stacey.

Right. Well, that's... Is that fair? Does that happen? Yes, it does. And in fact, I had an argument with my daughter one time in a restaurant in a Colorado. The eight? Oh, she's an eight.

Redhead. Woo. Because she's intense, and I love her. And she's got a squishy middle, and she's grown in self-awareness. Right. And she knows when she's heading toward a bad zone to her, so, you know, props to my daughter for that. Right. But here's the deal.

She went at me one time in a restaurant. She powered up over something that she thought I had done wrong. And I just was like, okay, here we go. it's not my nature to do this, but I just know if I'm going to get this worked out, here we go. You ready? I got to power up on her, and I just went after her. And then she kind of smiled like a Cheshire cat, and she leaned back in her seat. And she's like, great, he's a player. Now we're equals. Now we can relate. And I trust him because I know that in the middle of that

little bit of conflict and that little flash, he didn't reveal that he had a hidden agenda. Right. See, then eight, man, you probably, you probably, probably are only really going to trust about 10 people in your whole life and trust them intimately. In a real intimate way, if you're an eight. Because you kind of are, you know, and you will be so loyal, you'll take a bullet for all 10 of them. Now, that's a fact. I think that's true. I need to self-examine like that, but I think, I mean, I just believe in this process. I really do. Yeah. So just remember, it takes a while to know your number. It takes, you got to do your work, man. This is the point, folks. That's exactly right. This is good. If you're looking for a quick fix,

Yeah. Right. First of all, there isn't one. That's right. We're talking about the human personality here. Okay, it's a lifelong development. I would be insulted if 90 questions could get me to know what my personality was, right? Of course.

You're more complex than that. So you got to get a book on it. You've got to get to a workshop if you can. And then, you know, the assessment is a great gateway into the conversation, but it is not the whole conversation. You really got to go do your work. He is Ian Morgan Cron. The book is The Road Back to You, an Eniogram, journey to self-discovery.

Folks, I hope this has at least opened up the conversation of what you want to do with this, how you engage with the book. Just pray for me and all who let know. This is really good. I hope that folks, you understand, I'm happy to be vulnerable for you all to kind of say, all right, you know, I need to walk through this and really begin to dive deep and not just get locked into eight or seven or nine and the wings and all that really go, go, go, go, go deep.

And then it'll be really clear. Don't just label yourself when you take this. I think that was huge, and that's why we walk through this exercise. So, hey, good stuff, my friend. I'm glad to meet you. I think you're a treasure to leaders. I think this is must reading. This is knowledge that we all have to have, not just for ourselves, but those that we're bouncing into in life.

It's so important. Thank you, man. We're better for it. Thank you. It's joy to be on with you. Big thanks to Ian Cron for being with us. The book is entitled The Road Back to You, an Eniogram journey, to Self-Discovery. You can also check.

check out everything he's doing at ean-cron.com. That's E-N-I-A-N-C-R-O-N.com. All right, we can't just till the soil. We have to actually plant something in you, so we've got two great resources for you on growth. First from our entree team, our leadership growth assessment. Now, this is going to help you

and the leaders on your team that you are trying to develop. Cover so much material here, but the biggest issue is It's going to give you a mirror and allow you to show a mirror to your team. Now, this is huge. We have a strengths and weaknesses test for each of your team members to fill out so that they can evaluate their leadership potential. Now, here's what's great about this.

Two things are happening here. You're going to open up their eyes, right? Shine that mirror at them. And then hopefully they're going to walk away empowered. That's what we want you to underline here as they walk through this. Hey, you're going to be empowered because you're going to have. information that maybe you were not aware of or maybe you just simply needed to be reminded of it. It's a great resource. You can get it by texting one word in to 33444. Here it is. Leader

Growth. We smashed it together. Leader Growth. You're going to text Leader Growth to 3344 or we'll have a link in this episode show notes at Entreeleadership.com slash podcast. Speaking of Growth, InfusionSoft is offering what I think is their most valuable resource they've ever offered in this podcast. So that's just me because I love what they're doing. They're giving you a free 30-minute consultation with one of their small business growth experts. Did you hear that? Not the free part. That's pretty awesome. They're going to let you have 30 minutes with one of their experts. These people get paid big dollars to do this. They're going to give you 30 minutes. That's your 30 minutes. Just think, what would you do if you had 30 minutes with a small business consultant who, by the way,

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It's circled on my calendar. It's a big growth week for me because I get to sit in the back in the green room and listen and take notes after introducing the amazing speakers such as Simon Seneca, Robert Hershevik, John Maxwell, Lou Holtz, Pat Lynch, Yoni, Dave Ramsey, Chris Hogan, and Christy Wright. We still have a few seats available. Text the word summit 17 to 33444-4-4. Get your special podcast discount. Hey, you don't want to miss this.

It's going to be so much fun. Our whole team is jacked. Count me as the most jacked. It's going to be fun, fun, fun. Can't wait to get down there. And looks like Will the Engineer, Eric and I have got a group float for the Lazy River. That's going to be big fun of the JW Marriott. You won't see that advertised anywhere on the website.

If you're a podcast listener, maybe we'll do a meetup at the Lazy River. Oh my gosh. Maybe we'll get Will the Engineer in a grass skirt. I don't know. It could just go bananas. We'll see what happens. It's going to be great. Can't wait to get there in sunny Orlando, Florida.

Again, one more time, folks. Tech Summit, 17 to 333. 444 or get the link in this episode show notes. Coming up next week, our guest is Adam Braun with Mission You. This guy is a fantastic thinker. An entrepreneur is entrepreneur. You're going to love the conversation. And even more important, this conversation is going to make you think it's going to challenge

you on a topic that we don't discuss much on this podcast, but it is so important. Here's just a bit of the conversation. Right now, 7 and 10 people who graduate have debt. the freshman class right now that's entering college, by the time they graduate, the average debt for a borrow, seven and ten of those individuals will be over $50,000 for that education of debt on very high interest rates that on average takes more than 20 years to pay back. So, you know, once you start to learn the information, you really need to take a hard look at, you know, whether this is actually going to get you ahead or whether it's going to hold you back.

All right, folks, make sure you don't miss our conversation with Adam Braun. on behalf of Eric the producer, engineer Will Rudder, and the entire Entree leadership team. Thank you for listening. We'll talk with you again very soon.