EntreLeadership - #314: 3 Ways to Engage Your Team with Patrick Lencioni

Episode Date: April 15, 2019

According to a recent Gallup poll, only 33% of workers in the United States are engaged in their jobs—which means you’ve likely got some unhappy, unmotivated people in your own organization. The solution, says best-selling author and leadership expert Patrick Lencioni, starts and ends with simply showing your team members that you care about them. Tune in as Pat shares the three things everyone needs in order to love their work.   entreleadership.com/podcast The Truth About Employee Engagement by Patrick Lencioni Patrick Lencioni's website The Proximity Principle Get your Summit Backstage Pass   Want expert help with your business question? Call 844-944-1070 and leave a message or send an email to [e-mail]. You could be featured on a future podcast episode! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Every human being needs to believe that the person they work for gives a darn about who they are as a person. Helping business leaders grow themselves, their team, and their profits. This is Andre Leadership. Now here's your host, Ken Coleman. Coming to you from the Music City, this is the broadcast of leaders by leaders for leaders. Thank you so much for joining the conversation. Oh, it's going to be a good one. our dear friend Pat Lynchioni back with us again. You can never have enough Pat. And so we deliver

for you as always. And can't wait to tell you about our summit backstage pass. Let's get to it. Pat Lynchioni is the founder and CEO of the table group. That is the business by which he does all of their consulting with companies. And Pat always writes his books out of the actual consulting experiences. That's what I love about Pat. Full disclosure, Pat's become a good friend. I think that becomes obvious in the conversation every time we talk. And I think he's absolutely one of the best. So you're going to love this. Very important conversation, human dignity and performance. This is a great conversation for you leaders. And you've probably not thought of it this way, but you need to. So here's Pat Lynch-June.

Well, Pat, this is fun to have you back on with us. And I'm really excited about what we're going to dive into first. Your firm is pretty fired up about a new conversation about an old and pretty consistent problem. Human dignity versus performance. What is this thing you're seeing out there in the corporate marketplace? Well, it's actually the reason I got into this business in the first place,

but we haven't really been all that overt. And that is I actually got into this field because when I was a little kid, my dad, God rest his soul, he would complain a lot about work. And he was a great employee. He was a salesman. He liked his customers.

He did very well. But every night he'd come home and complain about work because of management. and I didn't know what that was, but as I got older, I came to the conclusion that most people thought work

was supposed to be kind of miserable or drudgery at the very least. And what we've come to realize, and we had this belief before, but we're being more overt about it, is that it's not about performance of an organization versus human dignity. It's the two of them go together.

And when you look at companies like Southwest Airlines and Chick-fil-A, which we use all the time, and there's a reason, it's because they're like this. If you do both, that's how you create the sustainably successful company that makes people's lives better. And so we are going to be far more overt about that a big part of our work is about human dignity.

And that's not a detraction from organizational performance. It's actually a driver of it. So let's go back. What have you found? Yeah. What has led to this? I mean, you know, on the surface, I don't think any leader would want to readily admit we're not real great at the dignity part of this thing. That's probably not why they got into it.

But there have to be some forces, maybe some factors. I'm curious what has led to this problem where companies aren't thinking proactively and intentionally about how the dignity factor of a human being that walks into their company every day, how that's such a huge role in organizational health? How do we get here? You know, when I got out of school many years ago, I was under the impression that organizations, I call it they were hard organizations. Hard organizations said it's all about performance, and in order to get performance, you had to control employees through incentives and behavioral limitations and all these things. And you did that for a while. Eventually, they got pretty stressed out, and ultimately they would burn out and leave, and then you'd get more of them. And the organizations, I worked at a big management consulting firm, a big software company, that was kind of the norm. And I thought, okay, that's what a hard organization is. I guess that's how things work.

And then I came to realize later that there was also soft organizations. And I learned this when I went to work in an HR function at a company. And they were all supposedly about human dignity. And they did that. They said, we have to protect and coddle our employees. But as a result of that, people became very lackadaisical and mediocrity set in. And then they become completely disillusioned and unmotivated. and both of these left people bad.

And what we realized is that a hard organization is not sustainable, and a soft organization is certainly not sustainable. And just in case people don't understand a soft organization, go to the DMV. It's like, these people are totally protected from performance issues, but they're not happy. And we think, like, talk to people that work in a unionized environment where they don't really care about their jobs, but they're protected. and they're not happy. Human dignity doesn't come about when we're protected from having to work hard. But it also doesn't come about when the whip is cracked on us to work hard without a sense of who we are as people. So we came to realize soft and hard organizations are the problem. They needed to be healthy,

which is a complete commitment to both dignity and performance simultaneously. That's how I learned about it in my career. Originally thought, okay, organizations are hard. And then realized some people, are soft and neither of them works. Give me some of the signs. We've got leaders that are listening. We've got people that are working for companies. What are some signs that you might be working for a company that's hard where the human dignity is almost a non-factor? Well, when you feel like the company doesn't believe that getting to know people as human

beings isn't important, when they feel like these people are commodities. and they're going to quit and we're going to rehire other ones. And when they're not investing in the lives of the people that work there, that's a hard organization. When they see turnover among good people as just part of the game of business, that's the sign of a hard organization. Also, when they think that employees need to be overly managed through rules, that's the sign of a hard organization. See, a healthy organization, one that's both embraces both good things, they hire people, only people that fit the culture. So they don't believe that they should hire anyone and tolerate anything.

But when they find somebody that fits, then rather than controlling them, they inspire them. You see, the problem here is not everybody belongs in every organization, and not everybody's inspirable. So in a great organization, you don't feel the need to control people's behavior. You actually find the right people, give them the clarity about what's going on, and then inspire them and turn them loose. and as a result, they perform. So the sign of a hard organization is one that assumes people are going to do the wrong thing unless they're controlled through a lot of rules and a lot of incentives rather than just inspiration toward what's good.

And when they feel like, well, a good person left, but that's just the cost of doing business. Good people should never leave a healthy organization. A good employee who fits the culture, if they leave, that's the canary in the coal mine. Something's very wrong. Now, you're going to be talking about that at our summit events. We're excited about that. Yeah, I love those events. When you guys are working with organizations, before we leave this topic, what are you doing when you come in with leaders?

How are you looking at both of these? What are some of the metrics? So we talked about the hard organization, but just looking at the balance, that center spot of the graph, if you will, between the soft and the hard. How are you helping companies assess where they're at? Well, what we first do is we work with the leadership team, because if they're they're unhappy and they're behaviorally unhealthy, then it's never going to change the organization. So the first thing we do is we go in and we look at how does this team work together? Do they trust each other and are they humble and vulnerable?

Do they know how to have good conflict? All those kinds of things. So that's the behavioral part. But what we also do, and this is mostly about performance, is we make sure that those leaders are completely utterly aligned around the basic questions about why we exist, how do we behave, What business are we in? What's our strategy that makes us unique? What's our biggest priority? And who has to get what done?

So basic, basic critical clarity. So we say, are you behaviorally aligned and are you intellectually aligned? Then we say, now go out and tell your employees as many times as you can and put just enough structure in place to reinforce it over time. So that's really how to create a high-performance organization. Then, though, what you have to do is teach all of your managers, how to provide people with the three things they need to be engaged and love their work. And that is, do they feel known?

Every manager, if they're not taking an active interest in like knowing their employees, who they are, where they come from, what's going on in their life, their family, their aspirations. If they're not known, they're not going to love their work. If they don't know why their job matters, they're serving someone in some way, everybody wants to serve people. everybody has in their heart the need from God to want to serve others. And if they don't see why their job is serving someone, they can't love their job.

And then every employee needs to know how to measure for themselves if they're being successful. If they have no evidence of their own contribution, they can't love their jobs. So first you get the executive team clear and you create a plan and you get clarity. Then you teach managers to go into the organization and manage these people for engagement. And then you turn it loose. And extraordinary things happen. It's absolutely right. You can turn these people into just human productivity machines because now there's a fire and they get it. Exactly.

Yeah, really good. Exactly. And what's funny is the companies that get it, everybody knows what they do. And yet they don't emulate them because they still believe that it's about compensation and rules and the intellectual side of business and they're ignoring the heart. You've got to have the intellectual side, but without the heart, it doesn't matter. Yeah, this begs the question, though. why is it that otherwise very smart professionals don't say, I'm going to go find out how Chick-Fully does this? Or I'm going to go talk to some Southwest executives.

Or I'm going to listen to what Alamo Ali says about changing the culture. I mean, it's out there. Why don't they understand it and dig into it? You know, I asked Gary Kelly, the CEO of Southwest, that question once. I said, Gary, why don't all of your competitors do what you do? And he thought about it. He's a humble guy. And he thought about it.

He said, you know, Pat, honestly, I don't. I think that they think this is beneath them. So they look at it and they go, I'm not going to act like that. I'm not going to do those things. I didn't go to business school. I didn't go to Harvard Business School so that I could actually take an interest

in what's going on in the janitor's family. This is all intellectual. And ultimately, it's a crisis in humility and humanity. They think that a strategic case study from business school is how a company become successful. And they don't realize that True, at Kathy built a great chicken sandwich, but that's not the secret to that company's success. It was the culture he put in there

and it came from how he believes human beings want to be treated. Whether they're employees, whether they're executives, whether they're in the drive-thru, it has coming through to get food. He understand that people know how they need to be treated. And that is their secret sauce. And too many people who are intellectually self-impressed fail or refuse to acknowledge that because it seems too simple. You know what? I don't know if I'm right here, but it feels like as I'm listening, I think

that's spot on. But I think it's also much harder. It's extra work for the leader to do what you just described. This is beyond the boardroom. This is beyond spreadsheets. This is beyond, like this personal, and again, I'm a pastor's kid, but as I was listening to you talk, I started going, That, what you just described is leadership that we see modeled in ministry or in churches. It's not just a leadership position. Pastors have to lead and make all these decisions, but they also have to lead an organization that are people driven. And so they're there on Sundays and they're doing counseling.

I guess, Pat, it just feels like maybe a lot of these big shots don't do it because it's a lot harder to lead the way Gary leads and the way the Cathays lead. Is that true? Yes. And actually, I should say that there's three biases that prevent. a leader from understanding this stuff. The first one is what I call the sophistication bias, and that is, this is just too simple. How can this guy, without a college degree, build a world's greatest quick service restaurant? And I have four degrees from advanced schools.

I should be able to beat him. So they think that goodness and success is sophisticated or nuanced that way. The second reason is what we call the adrenaline bias, and that's they want something they can implement right away. If you tell them, you're going to have to do this every day over a long period of time, and that's how it's going to take root. They're like, I need a ERP system. I can slam in there, implement, and see them, you know. And the other one is what I call the quantification bias, which is they want to know what exactly is the ROI on culture.

And if Southwest and Chick-Fleigh and companies like that are going to tell you, it's everything. Right. We could never measure the impact because it's in everything. So those are the biases, and it gets to what you were saying. All of those things make it sound hard. And when you realize it's kind of like faith. It's kind of like faith that's saying, here's how to have a great life.

Do this and this and this and this over a great long period of time. And this is how you're going to find happiness here and eternally. And people go, yeah, I think I can find a better way. And they work and they do all these things looking for a workaround and realize it doesn't work. And so, yeah, they say that sounds too hard. And the thing is, except it's the everything else is harder. So true. Well, Pat, I'm excited that we get to talk a little bit.

We're not going to give much away. We'll only talk about what you can talk about, but you're working on a new book, and I'm excited about this. Tell us what you can. Well, I probably will tell you everything. My wife says I'd be the world's worst spy. I love it.

Hey, I'm doing this reconnaissance. You should know what it was going on. Hey, everybody, gather out. Because I don't keep secrets very well. So it's called the motive. It's called the motive. and what it is, it comes about because I was working with enough leaders. I remember I was in a room once with a bunch of leaders,

and they were asking me questions about how to make their organizations better, and I realized that a decent number of them were kind of rejecting my advice. And kind of like the things you were saying before, like, oh, that's too hard, I would never do that. And I finally thought, why would somebody not want to do this stuff about creating a healthy organization, performance, dignity, and all that? And I realized that it came down to the reason why they became a leader in the world. the first place, their motive. And if the motive of being a leader is self-serving, which is, hey, I'm working really hard because one day I'll have the top job and I will have arrived.

Then they think, now I get to do what I want to do. I can pick and choose the activities that I find enjoyable and I don't have to do all that stuff that I did when I was working my way up the ladder. contrast that with the other motive, which is people that say, now that I have the top job, now things get serious. Now I'm on the hook more than ever to steward this opportunity. I have to do whatever is required. And if I don't, then I'm not treating this job. This is a duty and a heavy responsibility. I think using the world of sports as an example, it's like the difference between a player who gets drafted in the NFL, and they get drafted in the NFL, and they think, I've arrived. This is it. All that work has paid off. I'm going to have a great house. I'm going to be

famous. I'm going to make a lot of money. Wow, this is going to be a blast. Versus the guy who says, oh, no, more people are going to know what I'm doing now. They are going to be paying me money, so they expect a lot more of me. I have to work harder than ever because if I don't, I will have failed. The difference between those two motivations is everything. And when you go to a CEO and you say, You have to do something that's not fun, but you're the only person who can do it. And they didn't take the job for the difficulty. They took the job because they felt like it was a reward. They're not going to do those things.

So the subtitled the book is, why so many leaders abdicate their most important responsibilities. Wow. That's incredible. And that's how I find it is. They're just like, I'm not going to do that. I'm like, why did you become the CEO? And if they were honest with me or had a few glasses of wine, they'd say, are you kidding? Because this is a reward. I mean, I get to play now.

Have you seen the videos of the draft combine for Tom Brady? It's been servicing over the last couple months leading into the Super Bowl. And this guy, you should see the video footage of him. Now, I'm a Michigan fan, as you know, so I knew about him. But this guy's drafted late, you know. Sixth round. Sixth round. He looks, he doesn't even look like an athlete in these videos.

No. And here's a guy that we all know his story. story, he gets his chance. He's a little known backup. Nobody's projecting great things, but he's reached the pinnacle of his industry, the NFL and football. And Drew Bledso goes down with an injury, and this kid comes in and he's just always out prepared everybody. Like he just never took it for granted. There's something to be said for him versus, I'm teeing you up because I love when you talk sports, versus a story like a Todd Morinovich or some boyhood idol. Johnny Mansell. Johnny Mansell's another one. And they just feel like, well, this is just, I'm so talented.

that this is what I'm supposed to get is an opportunity to be a star in the NFL. I mean, that's a motive issue as well. Oh, gosh. Joe Montana, they said every year he'd come to training camp and thought that the new quarterbacks they brought in because they have to bring in new ones might beat him out.

So he had to work to earn his spot. And did you hear the story about this kid for the 49ers this year, Nick Mullins? Yeah, incredible. Third string, right? He didn't even suit up after them. You know what he would do after every game? First of all, he'd prepare,

like crazy. He said, I prepared like I was going to start. And then after the game, he'd go out, I guess, onto the field. And he'd go through the rundown of every play that was called in the game, and he would act it out like he was the player. So Garoppolo gets hurt, Betherd gets hurt, he goes in, and he is totally prepared. And I just love stories like that. Again, he sees it as a responsibility and not as a reward. That's right. Exactly right. I got to go lead the team to victory. Right. That's why you are prepares because you believe you can do it and you should do it. And it's a privilege, but it's like a responsibility. You take it seriously, not like this is cool.

Hey, I'm going through this right now. I'm writing an article, actually. I grew up a Celtics fan because my dad's brothers went to USF. And so my dad got to know Bill Russell and Casey Jones years ago. So I'm a Celtics fan, and they've got this guy, Kyrie Irving on the team, who is extraordinary. But I think it's about him and it's not about the team. And I actually posted that on one of these, I know I'm a geek about this, on a Celtics site and said, I really think they need to trade him if they want to do better.

And I got ripped by their fan. Are you kidding? This is the most talented guy ever. But I'm convinced that he wanted to be the superstar, and that's why he left the Cavaliers and went to the Celtics. And they actually played better without him last year than they are this year with him. That's undeniable, by the way. All you have to just go look.

And by the way, you can also look at, now we're really nerd and out. You non-sports fans stay with this. This is relevant. So you got guys like Jalen Brown who stepped up last year, and their numbers and contribution are down. go look at it. This is an opinion. This is a fact. Their numbers are down this year as a result of him coming back. Their record is worse. I mean, it's undeniable that the guy is a cancer with the organization. And you know what's amazing though? And this is whether you're a sports fan or not.

What happens is this when you tell, if you were to go to the leaders of that team and the organization or their fans, they would say, are you kidding? We would get criticized. Honestly, they would say we would get criticized so much if we let him go. And this happens in companies all the time. Are you kidding? That's my top salesman. Or she's my best. executive. And it's like, but do you know how their behavior impacts the behavior of the people around them? Years ago, before I started my company now, I had an employee who was not a team player, even though I said that was one of my core values. And she just got so much work done and took so much off my plate that I was like, oh, I'm glad. And I did the worst thing ever, and I promoted her.

And the people on my team said, do you realize what a violation of your values this is? And so I managed her off the team in a good way. I realized she wasn't going to change. I found another spot for in this big organization that didn't have the same values as mine, the rest of my team's performance went through the roof. Yeah. Yeah. But I had to be willing to have some people go, she gets a lot done. Why did you let her go? It's like, because it's more than just their individual talent and contribution. It's how that their behavior affects others. And in the world of sports, how many teams just never get great? Bill Belichick has gotten rid of some of their most talented players purely because they didn't fit on the team. Well, you know what else? You know what? We're going to

stay here because it's so relevant. So one thing that Belichick has done is he'll take veteran players that are cast-offs, some of them even problem children, on other teams. And the sports talking heads will say, oh, this seems like a risk for Belichick. He brings that player in. They're poster children. They go from problem child to poster child. This is a leadership issue. What happens that? Totally. Well, it's that the leader has to recognize that you're not managing people in a vacuum. And Again, individual talent and experience and statistics are things that you think it's an intellectual decision to hire somebody, but there's an integrative emotional decision too, and you've got to look at this person and say, how are they going to impact others? And that's much harder to quantify

and justify, but you have to take that into consideration. And it's why Belichick drafts players, I mean, there's people that would still say he's a terrible drafter because the players he gets every year at the draft, you're like, that was a reach. And And then it's like, yeah, but he saw something that other people didn't. And he's looking for intangibles that are real. They're just hard to quantify. They're just hard to quantify. You can't measure a guy's hand size and decide, you know, Teddy Bridgewater didn't get drafted

by the Cleveland Browns three years ago because his hands were a quarter of an inch smaller than Johnny Mansell's. Right. And it's like, really? But look at the guy. He's a model citizen. He makes everybody around him better. People love to play with him.

He's humble. He's hardworking. Nope. His hand size was this much smaller. Ridiculous. Well, you know, here's another thing, too, is that every coach I've ever studied that I would say is great has a system. Yeah. And so they interchange players. And I think leaders have to understand their own system. And you talked about when you were leading a company early on, that one gal didn't fit your culture. That's your system. Culture is a part of your system. This is the way we do. I was just going to say that. Yeah. And so you've got to bring in people that fit your system. This is what Belichick does well.

He brings in somebody that he knows he's going to play the inside linebacker position exactly how I wanted to be played. I don't care if he's fast enough. He's going to play it the way we want him to play it. So they go get that. It's nuts. I know. Now, baseball isn't the same as team sport as others, although there's teamwork involved. Sure. But do you know that the Major League Baseball record for the most regular season wins in the season, which is by far the best indication of a team, because the postseason is a crapshoot, according to Billy being in his book, Moneyball, which even if you're not a sports fan,

that's a great book. But the team that won the most games in the history of Major League Baseball was the Seattle Mariners. I can't remember what year it is, but I do know this. It was the year after they had finished trading away, Randy Johnson, Ken Griffey Jr., and Alex Rodriguez.

They got rid of three certain Hall of Famers, and the year those guys were all gone, they broke the record for the most wins. And so how in the world can we think that individual talent, whether it's in a software company, a bank, a restaurant, or a professional sports team, individual talent is not the issue. It's knowing your culture and what your system is, finding people who fit that and turning them loose. That's exactly right. All right.

I want to go back into a bit of what's in this book, The Motive, and of course you talk about this a lot. And I don't know if I've ever asked you this question this way. But humility. I mean, this is what's the requirement of being a servant leader. This is where you've got the right motive when you're humble. You know a lot of these humble leaders. You've already mentioned them, you know, Dan Kathy, Gary Kelly, Alan Malawi. But what if someone's listening right now?

And they go, I don't know that I am as humble as I need to be. Or how do I assess myself and really begin to be intentional about humility? Because we're all human beings. And I think the premise of this question is I believe that you can, be intentional about humility and guard yourself and keep yourself in a state of humility and try to guard from the trap of entitlement and leadership, the praise, the power, all that stuff. What would you say to that person on assessing our humility and then how do we stay intentional? Well, first, I would say that humility is a virtue. It's the chief virtue. I mean,

if the root of all sin is pride, then humility is like the antidote to that. So it's a virtue, which means it can be developed. It's not an inborn trait. Okay. So that's, really huge because they go, well, I just don't know if I'm not humble. It's like, then get humble. That's right. And everybody can be. And what you need to do is ask yourself if you, you know, C.S. Lewis had the best quote about humility. It's not thinking less of yourself. That's right. It's not like you should think you're terrible person. It's you should think about yourself less. Are you thinking about others? Do you realize that you are not more important or better than anyone else in the world? We are children of God and you are not more important. And do you live your

life with that reality front and center every day. Now, if you're great at something, go be great at it and serve other people with that and rejoice that you're good at it, but realize that's not up to you to feel better about yourself and that that was a gift. And the definition of a gift is that someone gave it to you, and that's God. And so become humble. Humility is so freeing and pride is so enslaving. So what I would say is go read about it. Go read the great writers, read the Bible, read about all the people that have really thought. And there's books out today about humility. And commit yourself to becoming humble.

Because if you're not humble, you are not going to be happy if you need a really practical reason to do it. You're also not going to be a great team player. You're going to have real limitations in your personal relationships. And at the end of the day, you're going to live with a lot of regret. So double down on that humility. And there's, I'm not an expert. on it, but I know that it doesn't come from mastering a behavior. It becomes from really understanding what it is and recognizing that we have no reason to be anything but humble.

One of the things you did, you wrote a book, of course, The Truth about employee engagement, and I'm studying all these data points as a part of what I'm doing on the Ken Coleman show. Engagement is not good in America. 70% of American workers are disengaged to the point that they hate their job. This is a Gallup 2017 poll. You touched on it earlier. Do they feel known? Do they know that their job matters? Can they see the measurement for their success?

Is it those three things again that you touched on? Or are there other ways to say, okay, we're going to have to really take an assessment of where our company is on engagement? And how do we do this across the board and make sure that it goes deep? I think it's a couple of things. I think that first of all, we have to disabuse ourselves of the idea that engagement is a function of money and status. The fact of the matter is there are people. Like I talk about Mike Rowe has showed dirty jobs. There are people in the world that have jobs that seem very unattractive who are very engaged and go home at night feeling great about what they do.

And there are people who make millions of dollars sitting in a high-rise office in New York doing something relatively sexy and high-profile who are miserable. So it's not about money. It's not about status. Even though the world will tell you that's what makes somebody happy. And this is something, I know you love career stuff. So do I. And I love your books. And the new one coming out is fantastic.

If you encourage somebody to do what they're meant to do, they're going to find more fulfillment in that. But what they need more than anything from their manager is they need to feel like they're known that somebody cares about them. There are professional football players who are making millions of dollars working half the year at a child's game. And I've been around them in the locker room at training camp and they're really unhappy because deep down inside they know my coach could give a crap. about me. He never talks to me. They don't know what's going on in my life. He doesn't ask about my kids or about what's going on. And as a result, they're miserable. And we think, what a spoiled rotten brat? It's like, no, every human being needs to believe that the person they work for gives a darn about who they are as a person. And if we're not doing that, and every leader

I talk to Ken says, you're right, Pat, I know I have to do that. I remember when I first started working, I wanted that more than anything. But dang it, I'm just so busy. and I forget, and I say, we'll start doing it now. And they go, it's going to be kind of weird and awkward. I'm like, yeah, it is. Just go up to your people and say, I haven't really taken an interest to you as a person. That's stupid.

I'm sorry for that. I'm kind of embarrassed. I'd like to start now. Can we have a talk about what's going on in your life? Because I'd really like to know. And I'll share with you what's going on in mind. No employee is going to turn their back on that. But we have to humble ourselves enough to say,

I'm sorry, I haven't done this well. Interesting. And it starts there. That's what I was going to say. Keep going. interesting that the starting point was communication, not a reward, not lavishing them with a gift or an add-a-boy. It was just, hey, what's going on in your life? Do you know what happens when you don't know somebody and you're not doing these things we're about to talk about, but you pay them more?

There's research that shows that that actually frustrates them because now they feel like they're being bought. You know, there was a social psychology study years ago. I remember I learned about it in college, and I've heard it since then, where they had these people on the street go up to somebody, and ask for a favor. Like, hey, could you help me move these boxes? And a high percentage of people did it. And then they went to people and said, hey, for five bucks, would you help me move these boxes?

And a far lower percentage of people did it. Because they didn't want to feel like it was an economic decision. People don't work for economics. They work because they believe in the mission. They need money to live. But that is a satisfier and not a driver. And when companies think we need to increase people's stock and increase their pay and their bonuses,

and that is going to take care of their engagement issue, they never get what they want. It's crazy. I got to repeat this. This is so good. I wrote this down. Money is a satisfier, not a driver. That ought to be a leadership mantra. You ought to like chant that for, I don't know, 15 times before we walk in the office every day.

Yeah, because, you know, once you make enough money, you're not going to turn down a bonus or a raise, but it has diminishing marginal returns. But getting reminded by your manager and your customers that what you did really helped them and being celebrated and known, nobody. You never get tired of that. You want more and more and more of that. It's like love. It's like a kid doesn't want their dad to buy them more sneakers. He wants him to spend more time and to hug him and to give him more encouragement. No kid says that's enough encouragement.

Nobody ever quit a job like, hey, enough recognition. That's so true. This guy wouldn't stop loving on me. It's driving me bananas. Exactly. So good. All right, it's going to be fun to be in San Diego with you. It'll be here before we know it.

It's always good to be with you in person, and you're on this program so much because we value you so much, and just feels trite to only say thanks for being with us. But we love you, Pat. You do such good work for so many leaders, and you're always refreshing. I can't wait to be with you in San Diego at our summit. Well, I could do one of these calls with you once a week.

It's a blast. Always fun to have Pat with us, and he's going to be with us again at Summit, and I can't wait. Speaking of Summit, I told you people at the top of the program about the Summit backstage pass. I know you people are going, what in the world is the backstage pass, wait no longer. The Summit event has been sold out for months, but we're going to have so much fun, and we want to be able to bring a lot of that content back to you, and we try to do that every year. And so now we're going to give it to you via the Summit backstage pass. You're going to be able to watch keynotes from Dave Ramsey, Chris Hogan, and myself, and get the digital copy of the workbook so that you can follow along and take notes. This is a great resource, and it's free.

Did I mention that it's free? It is free. Here's how you get it. Text backstage pass. Now, there's no spaces, all one word, backstage pass. Text that to 33444. That's 33444. Or you can get the link in the show notes.

All right, big thanks to Pat Lynch. being with us. We love him. Always grateful for his time and we are grateful for you. On behalf of the entire Entree Leadership team, thank you so much for listening. We'll talk with you again very soon. Hey folks, I want to make you aware that we have other great podcasts from Ramsey Solutions. Here's a sample of the Ken Coleman show. According to a recent Gallup poll, nearly 70% of Americans are disengaged at work. If you dread going into work every Monday morning and you're just trying to make it to the weekend, the Ken Coleman show is for you. Everyone has a sweet spot. Your sweet spot is at the intersection of your greatest talent and greatest passion. We will help

you discover what it is you were born to do and then we'll help you create a plan to make your dream job a reality. You matter and you have what it takes. Join the conversation on the Ken Coleman Show. To hear full episodes, just search Ken Coleman in iTunes or go to Ken Colemanshow.com. Thank you.