EntreLeadership - #325: Why You Should Delegate Results, Not Tasks with Bryan and Shannon Miles

Episode Date: June 3, 2019

Bryan and Shannon Miles, Co-CEOs of BELAY, know a thing or two about maximizing productivity. In fact, they’ve built an entire business around it by helping overworked business owners find amazing virtual assistants, bookkeepers and web specialists. On this episode, Bryan and Shannon explain how getting out of the way and delegating results, not tasks, has helped them become more efficient than ever. Also joining us is StoryBrand Founder Donald Miller, who has a lot to say about building a business from the ground up and dealing with naysayers. entreleadership.com/podcast Links mentioned in this episode: BELAY website Video recording tool: Loom Download a free chapter from Virtual Culture StoryBrand website A Million Miles in a Thousand Years Building a StoryBrand The Presidential Task Force for Fatherhood and Healthy Families   Related episodes: #305: Dave Ramsey—You’re Doing Delegation Wrong #247: Bryan and Shannon Miles—Virtual Culture   Want expert help with your business question? Call 844-944-1070 and leave a message or send an email to [e-mail]. You could be featured on a future podcast episode! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When you communicate a result or you communicate the why behind what's needed, when you're not around, they can fill in the blank. So it speeds the process of how you delegate to it. Helping business leaders grow themselves, their team, and their profits. This is Entree Leadership. Now, here's your host, Ken Coleman. Coming to you from the Music City, this is the broadcast of leaders by leaders for leaders. Thank you so much for joining the conversation. Here's what we got coming up for you this episode.

Our good friends, Brian and Shannon Miles, the co-founders of Belay, one of the most innovative companies in America, rejoin us. And speaking of rejoin us, how about our old friend and great friend Donald Miller? You can never get enough of Donald Miller. He's going to be interviewed by Entree leadership coach, Alex Judge, so we've got a lot of goodness coming your way. Let's get right to it. Brian and Shannon Miles are good friends because they were customers first.

And they adopted the Entry Leadership Principles, and they saw tremendous success. And they know how to lead and grow a company. If you're not familiar with who they are, you can learn more about them on episode 247. Now, today we're going to talk about how they've grown belay and how the role of a virtual assistant can actually enhance your business. Here is my conversation with Brian and Shannon Miles. Well, this is exciting Brian and Shannon Miles back in studio with us. And you've been on with us before. So you're not new to our audience, but things are exploding for you.

And today we're going to do something a little different. We're going to go much deeper, much more practical into this idea of leadership, growing the company, things that you guys have done. But then also this virtual assistant thing, how do you really make it work? Because I think what you guys are doing, you're really on the frontier. And I think it's really changed the way people work. Let's first talk about leadership because you two, what I love about your story, really has in some ways a lot of parallels to Dave and Sharon. Dave started this place after, you know, a failure and he starts it in his living room because he's like, I don't know what else to do.

Card table, living room, you guys know the story. You two started this together. You got little ones, you know, both successful in previous. You come together, husband, wife, launch a company from scratch. So that would be the context. And so I want you to talk a little bit about this idea of owning the company, not running the company, because we hear this stress all the time. I'm the chief everything officer. Talk to us a little bit. Sure. Owning, not running came from essentially climbing a mountain with a friend of mine. It was 2011.

We were seven months into our business. And we were on the Grand Teton. And it was at 10,000 feet. And he was an advisor friend. And he basically asked me questions about the business. And I had said something around the lines of, I own this thing. or whatever. And he goes, you don't, you don't own anything. It's just kind of in your face. Yeah. And I'm like, yes, I do. What are you talking about? Like I got really kind of irritated

by me. And clearly he was going to teach me a principal. So I sat down and he goes, listen, he said, the day that the business doesn't need you day to day is the day that you own the business. Until then, you run a business. And that ticked me off. And we went to the top of the mountain the following morning and we came back down. And Shannon was there in Jackson, Wyoming. And I said, hey, this is the conversation. We need to own, not run. And so seven months into our business, we basically created that mantra of own not run,

and it's informed so many decisions since then in the seven, eight years now we've been in business. And I think that scares some people. They're hearing that right now. They go, whoa, whoa, whoa. Now, what are we talking about? But I don't think it's as scary as they think it is. Explain what that looks like

from both of your perspectives in your roles, that you are owning a company and you're not running, meaning they're doing it without you if necessary, but you're still very much involved, yes? Yeah, and let's be clear, it is a goal that we're striving toward. It is not where we are today. But it does inform how we hire, how we delegate, how we train up other leaders. Because if the idea is that eventually we'll be at a place where we're owning the business, it doesn't rely on us day to day, and we're getting there. But if we're in that place, we've got to have capable leaders who can be empowered, make decisions, and really, own their aspect of the company. And so we hire ahead of time and we have intentional professional

development. And that's kind of how it plays out practically for us. Nothing great or of size happened with one person. If you're going to do something of meaning with your business, you're going to have to find great people and get out of their way, you know, and defer to them and empower them and resource them. So we've just tried to do that. And you talk to leaders all the time. Like the business can consume you. It can chew you up and spit you out. And make you forget why you even started the thing to begin with. And we just never wanted that, you know, and there are seasons that are busy and challenging and all that. But it's, it's heartbreaking to see a business owner who feels like they've got to be the one to do all

of the things. And it's just not true. Shannon, you mentioned developing these people. Yeah. And we hear all the time at events, the question came up, I can't find good people. And I feel like just going, you're going to have to develop them into good people, right? You know, I mean, that's part of leadership. I want you. I want you. you to speak to that. Because you hear that too. How are you finding good people? And then even if they're good people, if they're not where you ultimately want them, how are you developing them to be what you need them to be? Yeah. We all have to be developed, right? Like none of us were born to do this job that we're doing. We all have to learn and grow. I think for us,

it's very practical. We've stolen so much on trade leadership material. It's not even funny. So we have KRAs, the key results areas, the job descriptions that make it really clear right from the beginning what we're hiring for. And then you find the right person who's a great cultural fit. But then you have to be thoughtful in your onboarding. And you start small and you give them a chance to prove themselves. And then, okay, they did a great job there. Let's continue to give more of that. And it's the concept of the rope, right?

And the whole podcast you guys did on delegation, like that is such a key element of leadership development. I can't emphasize it enough. Our key leaders in our company were assistants. I would be interested to hear, what was the emotional journey for you to get to a place where you truly delegated? It was early on in my career. I mean, before our company,

I fortunately had a great assistant seven years before we ever started our company. When you find great people, you can just get out of their way. You know, this is a big thing too. You want a delegated result, not a task. And so in this case, it was Tricia, and I'd say, Trisha, this is the result I need. This is what we're trying to accomplish.

and you're probably smarter about how to get to it than I am. So I'm here if you need my help or whatever, but this is the result that's expected, not the task. That's interesting. I don't think it all the times I've been with you, I've ever heard that. Yeah, you just... It's very interesting, because you're giving them the freedom to figure it out. That's right.

Yeah, and think about it, we hire adults, and then they want to feel trusted. So what greater way to communicate that you trust them to say, here's the result I need, and just hand that off to them, and they do a great job with it in most cases. Interesting. How often, though, when you say something like that, does somebody go, okay, you're going to show me how I can get that result? Yeah, I mean, sometimes, I mean, you've got to help them say, okay, here's kind of the boundaries or here's kind of the playground we're going to be on for this set of experience or for this project. But most times, we have just, we found people, we've been intentional to find people that roll their sleeves up and we'll just get after it, you know, and they love it.

I mean, they want to be part of being the result. And frankly, when we were from home, like we're all virtual, when you communicate a result or you communicate the why behind what's needed, when you're not around, they can fill in the blank. That's good. So it speeds the process of how you delegate to. I'm going to say that again for you folks out there. That's really good. Don't delegate a task.

Delegate a result. That's really good. Brian Miles, you can tweet that, give him some credit on that. I don't know if you stole it. It doesn't matter. It's really, really good. Okay, so now let's move into, again, some practice. efficiencies around this idea of delegation. Obviously, you guys run a very successful virtual assistant

company. And one of the things that you all teach, your clients, you've taught us, it's something I think is really great for us to talk about, is how to work effectively with the virtual assistant. And how do you not just go from, okay, I'm working, we've got that person in place, but really turning this into a production machine. Yeah. The clients of ours or our leaders internally, they're most successful working with a virtual assistant, don't see them as an assistant. They actually see them as a work alongside partner. They see them as an extension of who they are as a leader.

And so when you start to see somebody as that partner to help you execute, you grease the tracks for them. You say, hey, if Jenny or whatever her name is or his name, if Jenny's calling, it's as if I'm calling. You free them up to basically go and be representative of who you are, and it's a multiple on you. It's not like a one-times multiple. it's a four or five multiple and your productivity as a leader when you see them as way more than

an assistant. And you cast that image to your team too. We actually, it's so ironic, we both have a new assistant because our former assistants moved on to do other things, one within the company and one without. And so we're in this place of transition. And it gave me a whole renewed perspective on what our clients go through. And I think it was a reminder of in the beginning how long things take, you know, like you want to just hit the ground running. And sometimes by the time you've decided to get an assistant, you're already buried, right? And so it's like there's a sense of urgency. I've got to get them on board fast, but it just takes time. So I think a really practical tip is just give yourself space to slow down and really train because the time that you're investing in

the beginning of that relationship will pay off in dividends later. What is your advice, not just within the context of Belay, of course, with people that are selecting someone. Sure. So I'd love to hear, you know, that process of how you match them up the right way. But then just for leaders that are listening or watching and they're going, okay, I've got an assistant, I need to hire a new assistant. I think you are uniquely positioned to kind of say, okay, if the assistant is going to be an extension of you, so it's not really an assistant. I mean, this is an extension like you talked about. Yeah. What do you feel are like the non-negotiables in selecting that person? Yeah. What is absolutely like, this has got to be a fit or it's not going to be.

going to truly be that extension. Because it feels like what you're proposing requires a greater selection process to really make sure you have the right person. I'd say even before the assistant, it starts with the leader. I mean, frankly, a lot of leaders, they have this idea of what an assistant is in their head and they're not giving themselves permission to see what that rule could actually be. For example, it's a really simple thing. I'm a leader at home as much as I'm a leader at work. So Hope, our current assistant, helps us with personal things. Why would I need to schedule a dentist appointment in the middle of the day when she can help us kind of navigate that in the same way she can hunt down a metric in our business? But it starts with me opening my mind as a leader to what is really possible with an assistant.

Even before you get to like, okay, here the criteria we're looking for, it really starts with how a leader is going to trust and yield up trust of these folks that will come alongside them in that way. Frankly, for us, we want assistants that can anticipate needs. Like get out ahead of a leader and say, I'm seeing this coming and I need to get out of a head. ahead of you and I'm going to make sure that we cover this off before we ever get there. I love when Hope does that. And she goes, hey, I saw this and I realized it's overlapping. We need to address that. Or I saw something in your inbox.

Really feel like you need to jump on that super quick. Can I help craft a response for you? It's helping, again, be an extension of who I am as a leader, but anticipating needs is huge. What fits for you? What's your process? I think a key attribute that we look for in all of our team members is resourcefulness. because the speed at which information is changing and technology is becoming available,

you have to be resourceful to figure out the answers to the questions that come up. You have to be agile like that. So I think some of the factors that we factor in when matching are personality fits, availability, pace. Some people work better in different environments of speed and some slower to change. you have to like who you're working with, right? So just finding people who are generally ready to go after it, super resourceful and want to have fun doing it too.

There's got to be some chemistry. There's got to be, right? And it takes sometimes a little bit of time to really understand what this person's doing with their business, and you've got to really care about this assistant because they're really becoming part of your team. You know, and part of truly, from an intimate level, really closely to you as a leader. So you've got to really know these folks and demonstrate that to them.

And the other thing, too, you know, we work with folks all over the U.S. They've got to have, in some places in, like, rural markets, so they've got to have a high-speed internet connection. If they're virtual, you know, they've got to have a really solid webcam because we've got to see each other. We've got to visually connect with each other. So, I mean, there's some practical, technical things that have to happen with that. Okay, so again, really practical here,

because, again, whether or not you have a virtual assist or not, you're going to learn a lot from this stuff. So don't check out, people. Let's talk about separate calendars. Now, what in the world is that? I mean, I think I know what it means, but why is that important? What's it look like? Well, I'll tell you for us, like I see a lot of leaders,

especially when I was doing sales in our business, we'd see a lot of leaders that had a personal calendar and a work calendar. And the reason why they were calling us is because both calendars were a hot mess. Yes. They just, they weren't color-coded. There was no organization behind it. They had overlap. They probably overcommitted at home and they over-committed at work.

And so we'd tell folks, one calendar. That's right. It's all got to fit in there. You're one person. You're one human. You know, and so as a result of that, if you can just get everything to fit and you have somebody kind of orchestrate that and can oversee it, it's such a win for leaders. And it's so simple, like, you know, just color code. And that way you can look at a week glance.

Oh, my gosh, I'm busy this week with a bunch of phone calls or I'm traveling this week or a lot of personal things going on. And it helps you kind of manage a pace as a leader too. And one step further than that is letting your assistant know how you want your calendar to be so that they can hold. hold you accountable of, can you really scheduled a lot of this one particular type of meeting this week? Like, what can we move to next week? And really giving them permission to own that part. What about things like blocking off time so that it's untouchable? I'm going to throw a couple things at you guys and let you teach. Okay. So time blocks. Let's talk about meeting preferences. You know, do you never put some back to back? Do you give yourself? I got to tell you,

a lot of people around here at Ramsey's Solutions are back to back to back to back. And Tim is over there, a producer here, and he's looking at me through the window. And I've told him at least 157 times, give me 30 minutes at least when my Ken Coleman show is off the air and to where I've got to be over here. And today is an example. A show goes off the air at two centrals, three Eastern, and here I am with you all at 230. I just need a little bit of downtime just to let my engines cool and get my head ready. That's why is. Because I've been performing nonstop for a block of time and then I just need some time. Give us an example of how we do this, how we work with the assistant. What do you think are best practices?

There's one thing that I've done in the last couple of years that has made a huge difference in helping my assistant schedule for me. So I identified my top five priorities, the five areas of focus that I need to have as a leader. and I designated one per day of the week. And so one of them, like Tuesday is grow influence. And so that's the day where she's going to schedule podcasts or media interviews or, you know, reviewing the social media calendar or things like that because that day I'm able to mentally focus on my external influence. Another day is for the team.

And so it just has helped her sort of have buckets to put things in and to say, okay, I know that you love investing in other. people, the next time you can do that is in April because your books, you know, every Thursday, that sort of thing. And that way we're not, because as leaders, we're wanting to achieve, right? We're wanting to do all of the things, but it's not sustainable all the time. So really, for me, those top five priorities have made a huge difference. Okay. I love that. Yeah, for me, scheduling is more about my energy, my energy level. Like in the morning, I'm much more crisp with my thinking, so I'll do it by writing then or I'll think critically about something in our business.

or I'll be on some very complex call. And then in the afternoons, I try and protect some time just for mental space, you know, or to take a quick nap, or do what I need to do just to kind of reset for the rest of the day. And then I just, I refuse to try and do calls back to back or meetings back to back.

I need that buffer of time. You know, I don't know, I guess I'm an introvert or whatever, but I just need time to reflect and just to kind of reorient and reset what's coming up next on my calendar that day. And so you teach this stuff to your assistant, and you say, hey, this gives me energy. You know, another good example is like when we're traveling,

hope knows for me that when my inbox gets really kind of busy and when we're traveling and kind of doing things like this or whatever, it puts stress on me. And I hate that because then I'm like thinking, okay, I got to go and do 28 emails tonight and people are waiting on me and so forth. So she'll say, okay, let's go through your emails when we're in the car driving from place to place or whatever

and say, okay, can I respond for you on this? Oh, that needs to go. to marketing, and it's pure heaven because I can get, you know, on an airplane, fly home and realize my inbox is at seven, and it's really truly things I can hit in the morning. Right. And but if you don't teach that to them, like what gives you stress as a leader, and they don't understand that, then they can't get ahead of you and anticipate your needs. Wow, that is really good.

I got to get somebody who's doing that for me. I just got to get somebody responding to all my emails. That would make your life so much better, wouldn't it, Tim? I know a company that can help. mind. I know. I know. I know. I'm going to talk to some people here. Okay, that's really good. Okay. So we just kind of talked about email. And so we kind of went that direction. Let's talk about rules, filters, responding as you. We kind of touched on that. Let's spend a little bit more time there because I think that debt for a lot of people, because this is a known joke around

Rang Solutions for anybody that works with me. I have very different email rules because I'm irritated by the tyranny of email. Like, I'm mad on your behalf that you feel that way. Yeah. I'm not mad at you. Yeah, no, I get it. I feel like somebody out there in culture is responsible for your stress over that. And I go, that's crazy.

It's email. And I mean, like, there used to be a time where we would write a letter to somebody. We'd fold it up, put a stamp on it, put it in the mail, and two or three days later they'd get it. did you ever get a letter from somebody in the mail and immediately walk inside, write a response, put it right back in the mail? Not once. Not one time. Yet, there is this tyranny of the urge on email.

Yeah. I get it. All right, I don't like it, but I'm in the Matrix. Right. I'm not Keanu Reeves. I can't fix it. I don't have different color pills. So we do have to deal with the fact that the fact, the reason you're stressed, because

people are going, email Brian. It's been two days. What do we do here? Well, we have become a slave to it, but here's the problem or the opportunity, however you want to look at it. When you respond well, you respond quickly, you communicate all the right things. Absolutely. When you don't respond, you communicate all the wrong things. And worse, they get to decide what the answer is.

That's right. And so as a leader in our business, as co-CEOs, it's incumbent on us to make sure that we're communicative with our employees, with our partners, with our clients. even if the answer is, I don't know, I will get back to you, that communicates the right message. And you got to consider what we do for living. Like, we pride ourselves in administration. Of course. So to lead this thing, we have to be responsive. That's right.

And what we have compliments come to us like, oh my gosh, you guys are so responsive as a company. It's because we have chosen to be that way because we know what's a stake. Here's the deal with email. It needs to be addressed, but it is not the leader's job. to answer every email. Yeah. 100%. Right.

Well, see, I'm having a little bit fun. I'm better at stipulation things and I'm going to give it back to you. Yeah. I unwittingly because I was like, I refuse to let, because I'd rather, if you could come speak to me, pop up, two minutes. Yeah. Show up at my desk on the forefront. Everybody knows where we sit.

We're like zoo animals, the Ramsey Porcelli, we sit in this, come up there and talk to me and what you could accomplish in two minutes below your mind. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I'm super responsive. Yep, yep, oh, great, sure, yep, let's do it this way. Tim, you know what I'm talking about. But if you send me an email, it's like, now I have to block out time in my day to read through

it all. And so I really resisted for a while. Then I realized I was sending the wrong message. Unwittingly, that I don't care about your email. Right. I wasn't. Right. I just said what my position was.

Yeah. It was wrong. I've sent, but now I've blocked out time in my day to where I'm going, all right, I'm going to answer it here, but I've also gone the extra mile and communicated to people. Yeah. if it's urgent and it really needs my voice, just find a way to pop up. But back to you, because I do think this expectation of, well, I'll just send an email, and it's like, I'm going to hand the ball to Shannon.

Your problem, Shannon, I sent you the email. Throw it over the fence. Go get it. That's where you're going with this. Yeah. And I agree with you. You know, a lot of our clients don't have the luxury that you guys have of being able to pop by your office. You know, they're a distributed team.

That's true. Maybe they're all virtual like we are, or maybe they travel all the time. So I think you have to know what forms of communication get the right responses. To your point, if it's urgent, pick up the phone and call. Or I am a link to a Zoom meeting so you can see their face. Like email is not the way to get a quick response. Right. I agree 100%.

And it doesn't allow for nuances. Right. It might take eight emails to accomplish what one, two-minute phone call could have. I've started using loom a lot lately. Do you know this? We use the Google platform. And so it's a plug-in for that and it's video capture. Oh, that's cool. So it's much easier for me to shoot a one-minute loom than type a ridiculously long email with seven bullet points. Okay, this is fantastic. And I feel like it's proving my point. So you hit a button and you essentially make a video. And maybe I'm showing them something on the screen. Or like I had to debrief on a meeting that I had and I wanted to. in my leadership team to know how it went.

And so instead of sending an email with five different paragraphs, I just said, hey guys, had this great conversation, here are the action items, you know, let me know what you think, boom, done. It took less time for me to shoot it,

and then they could see me, right, in the video and my expressions, and run with it. That's right. They're not trying to read into, well, what did she mean with this sentence? And you're like, I didn't mean anything.

Exactly. I'm trying to fire off an email. Because that non-verbal communication means something. Boy, I got to tell you. Email's changing in that way. Oh, really? I think so. You think we're going to move more to this Loon type thing?

It's more collaborative. You know, like, this back and forth tennis match is going to become like, hey, I'm bringing in the team to solve this thing, let's have less messages and get to the essence of what we're trying to accomplish with this subject or this thing. And Lume does that in a very good way. It distills it down quickly. You know, and then you can have debate and pull it, you know, take off line or whatever. But it's, I think that that's the way email is going.

I mean, for our organization, a lot of our assistance serve as air traffic control. over a leader's inbox. They're basically, for lack of a better what's saying, they're the router for workflow coming into a company. And most times, that's not the leader. That's, you know, someone else in the organization needs to solve that or answer that or whatever. So if you have somebody in there saying,

okay, you know, maybe 100 emails come in their inbox, but truly only 20 need to be handled by the leader, then they have time to do things like this and guide and give direction an email. I mean, because it's true. Like a lot of our clients, they just aren't, They don't have luxury to be in the same office with each other. So here's the deal.

Over seven years of running this business, you've had tons and tons of struggles. We love that about you all, not just your successes, but the fact that we're proud that you use Entree, but the fact is you use Entree. Like, you take the principles, you've applied it. You've been through a lot of stuff. I'm just going to tee you up. Shannon, I'd love for you to share the story of combining the five businesses into one. That sounds like a nightmare. And the way you reacted, feel like it.

It was the dark night of the soul. Seriously. The dark night of soul. If anybody is like, so what's your biggest challenge with the business? I was like, well, let me tell you a story. Right. Basically, up until 2016, Brian and I owned five different companies, separate tax filings, bank accounts, IT systems, teams, the whole deal, based on the service that they provided.

And one night, laying in bed, four in the morning. Brian's like, hey, are you awake? No. But yes, I am now. Now I am. I haven't been able to sleep all night. I think we need to combine all these five companies into one. And he's the like look around the corner visionary what's next kind of guy, which is great. And I'm more the roll up my sleeves. Let's figure out how to get a done kind of girl. And so I immediately went to how in the world are we going to do this? Like we've spent all this time and energy separating them. Why would we combine him. And I lay and he's like, yeah, you know, we can talk about it tomorrow. I just, I couldn't sleep. I had to, you know, how to just say something. And I'm like,

awesome, he rolls over, falls asleep, starts snoring, right? Because you got it out. Oh, yeah. He felt great. He got it on his chest. It was awesome. It's cathartic. Yeah. Talk to you in the morning. And he's out. Yeah. And so I'm laying there like, like, pique, bleak, blake. Yeah. Wide awake, how is this going to happen? And it was a crisis for me. Not because I didn't agree with him, but because I was wondering, am I able to be the leader to do this? Like, have I found my limit? What was so scary? Can you remember? I didn't want to go back to the team in reverse course. Why? I wanted them to be able to trust us. And you thought that if you went back and said, okay, I know we've done all of this for this long to do this, but we're going to change it. And you

thought they were going to go, you've lost your mind, we're out of here. Yeah, and a couple did. Mutiny. Yeah. We had a couple of people that said, we're not up for this and we're out. Okay. You know, there was some. Yeah. I love hearing the fear. Because I want our audience to feel that visceral emotion that you had at that time. And that makes total sense. It's like, it's like, okay, follow us this way. Oh, wait, just kidding. Now I'll go over here. And it's like, it was a re-up moment for me. Just being totally honest with you. Like, I never, like, didn't want to do this, but I honestly thought I wouldn't be able to because I wasn't sure I believed in it completely. So I had to wrestle with myself and Brian and I had some really tough conversations,

a lot of tears. Like, if this is the right thing to do, am I the right person to do it? And I, honestly, it was a lot of affirming myself, which sounds super self-help and I don't mean for it, too, but basically, like, I've never been equipped to lead this business. Why is it? this any different? You just figure it out. You had some doubt. I don't think that that's self-helpy. I don't think that that's crazy. I think that's very real. Yeah. Interesting. And I think I had to give myself permission to have a pity party and then it's like, okay, you know, buck up. And you did it. This is what we're going to do. This is what we're going to do. Our team is incredible. So we decided this in like midway through 2016 made the plan for the rest of that year on how we're

and consolidate it and started doing that. So 17 was like the rebuilding year. And that's where we came up with Belay. We took all these five companies. EA helped make big bookkeeping made them into Belay. And so 17 was a real rough year. Like Brian said, we had some attrition. You know, we're figuring out how to work together in this new organization.

Who are we? Right. And so in 2018, we really hit this new stride. Like, we had found our place. And it was the best decision. that I never wanted to make. Yeah. And if I'm, and I don't know this for a fact, so correct me.

Yeah. 18 best year ever. Oh, yeah. I mean, we're an explosive growth. 41% growth in our seventh year business. And was it a direct result of deciding to combine the companies? I personally think yes. Yeah.

I think. We got to hear your panic. God, don't make me say it out loud, Ken. I'm not asking you to call him out or endorse him. I'm saying, we got to hear you struggling. Do you feel like that was a massive? Okay, you know this. It is a natural tendency.

for businesses as they age and grow to become more complex. We had done just that. And so consolidating them all into belay reduced a lot of complexity. So it was absolutely the foundation that we needed to lay to be able to receive this growth that we've had this year. You know, certainly the books helped and podcast opportunities like this help and website changes through our good friends. The story brand, that all helps.

It all makes sense. But I don't know that we could have gotten even close to 41%. growth in 2018 had we not been one company. That's awesome. It's very hard. You know, as a married couple, you want to remain married, but then you've got to lead a company together. And, you know, we've all had this. If you're married, you've, at some point, you've made a decision or you've had actions that break your spouse. Like, it just, it breaks them. And that was one of those things that I just realized, it, like, broke her. And I was like, golly, this is such a horrible decision. And, you know, maybe second guess, like, is this the right thing. But,

I think you're just, as you work through it together as a couple, you realize like, yeah, we're going to figure it out and do it together. But it's awful feeling to realize, like, this idea, this thing you think could really help grow your business is, you know, possibly self-selecting your spouse that you did this with out of the business. And I was like, I don't want that. I don't want to do this with you. Of course.

And, you know, fortunately, she rehopped and has done awesome, you know, but. And let me ask you this, because we don't talk about this much on this podcast. What is it done for your relationally if you don't mind me asking? It's, I will tell you for me, you know, there's two people in a relationship. It's forced me to be a better human being and, and force me to get after my own personal development all the more. It's one thing to lead a business and feels like sometimes you're inadequate to lead that business and it's growth and so forth and stay ahead of it.

That's another thing when you realize, oh, I've still also a dad and a husband. And I've got, I've got to, I've got to grow personally in all those ways to stay healthy so that the business continue to grow. Because it's not, you can't, you've got to be more than a one-dimensional person. You know, you can't just have a great business and then your marriage fall apart. That's right. And so it's, you got to work on all of you to kind of see it all rise together. Yeah. That's how it's changed me. Yeah. I think it definitely helped us get more real and honest with each other. You know, it's one. I would imagine so. Right. It's one thing to be tight and connected when things are great. But man, when you're in the trenches and really going through the most difficult season,

ever, and you can say, like, I don't know if I can do this. And he didn't freak out, and he didn't run away. And he didn't, you know, say, I agree, you suck. You know, like to create that space for somebody and to be able to share really your deepest, darkest fears, and to know that they're going to get your back instead of taking advantage of that is huge. And I don't know that, you know, if we don't experience hard times in the business or personally or with our families, is that you can really forge those deep bonds. It's good stuff.

Brian and Shannon Miles, now you know why they're good friends. They're doing some great stuff, great resources, which we'll tell you about. We'll have available for you in the show notes of this podcast. But this is always fun to have you guys here. Thrill for you. We really are.

It's fun to see you guys thrive. You're smashing it. We're rooting for you here, obviously. And we appreciate you hanging out with us and making our audience better. We love you guys. You're awesome. Thank you.

Well, I hope you enjoyed our conversation with Brian and Shannon. Now, Brian wrote a book entitled Virtual Culture that we've talked about in previous episodes. This free chapter we're about to give you is going to take you in depth to what we discussed today so that you can actually take some action with what you heard, him talk about, and now apply it through this chapter. If you want to get the free chapter from his book, Virtual Culture, click the link in this episode. Show Notes. It's free. Did I mention that it's free? Did I mention that it's going to help you? Okay, great. Now that we're clear on that, go do it. All right, this is fun. So Alex Judd, who is one of our Entree Leadership

Coaches, and now he's the host of the Entree Leadership Summit and Entree Leadership Master Series, going to continue to contribute. And he recently got the opportunity to sit down with Donald Miller. He joins me in studio. Alex, welcome back. Thank you for having me, Ken. Really appreciate it. So how fun was this? Oh, man, so good. I remember the first time you interviewed Donald Miller, and it was specifically about his story brand framework that has literally changed marketing for thousands of businesses around our country. And we said, how cool would it be? How fascinating would it be to interview him on how he built his business from the ground up? So we talked to him about that

and all the lessons that he's learned around the way. Here's the interview with Donald Miller. So you wrote a million miles and a thousand years. That's right. In 2009. It's a best-selling book. Yeah. Radically different than building a story brand. Yeah. Do you, at that time, was the idea in the back of your head, I want to be a business owner. I want to be an entrepreneur no i was a full-on writer and but actually that book people read it and they wanted a more formulaic structure to create a life plan because that's really what that book is about it's about exploring what gives us meaning in life that caused me to start a business called storyline and then marketing storyline caused me to create the framework for story brand and story brand is what

took off and that's how it happened that's how it happened but it wasn't this dream of i'm to own a business one day at all? No, because I did own a business. I mean, as a writer and speaker, I had an assistant. I owned a small business. You know, it wasn't a super lucrative business, but I'd already thought of myself as a business. So I think scaling my business and, you know, all the, you know, hiring people, letting

people go, creating processes, figuring out, you know, EBITDA and all that kind of stuff, that came after, probably after story brand more than anything else. Later on. That would later when it became a formal business. I should say it this way. The transition from me selling myself to selling a product came with story brand. And that's when that occurred. That's when that occurred.

So you even said yourself, when you wrote a million miles and thousand years, you thought of yourself as a writer. Right. And I think probably everyone else thought of Donald Miller as a writer and speaker as well. I think so often it's so easy to just hear a title and we just live into that title for the rest of our lives. Was that difficult for you to break out of that? No. Really? No, it's more difficult for fans to see you as something different.

But I look at it almost like there are lifelong riders and they spend their lives writing. I was a memoirist and really exploring theological and philosophical ideas through the lens of memoir. And I'd written seven memoirs. And, you know, I'm convinced if you write your eighth, you're actually a clinical narcissist. So I was unwilling to write the eighth one. This wasn't going to happen. So I'm still a writer, but it was important for me to pivot my career. And I think of it almost like an athlete in the NFL or something.

At some point, your body is not going to cooperate. You need to become a coach. You need to buy a chain of restaurants. You need to do something differently. And I look at it very much like that. I was out of ink when it came to writing about myself. But I lit up when the thought occurred to me. I could actually help somebody else tell their story, especially a brand telling a marketing story.

I was a marketing major in college, and I've always sort of run a business and thought about that. I didn't know that. So that really excited me. And so when I wrote Story Brand, which was my first business book, it was a real pivot to a different kind of career. But at the same time, it felt like all of my life had been heading toward this, you know, this framework. I'd used it to write books. I'd used it to grow a conference company. And now I could actually use it to help thousands of other businesses figure it out, too.

it was the most natural progression from the inside. From the outside, it must have been very jolting. Everyone's like, who are you? Yeah, you're a radically different person. Sitting around pulling lint out of his belly button and talking about it in a chapter. And now he's helping people make millions of dollars. To me, that's the exact same guy. It's just that in Blue Lake Jazz and Million Mountainous Thudgeon,

I was showing people this part of my personality. And with building a story brand, I'm showing them a whole different part of my personality. that really was underpinning this whole memoir career. You do not have a book on the New York Times for 42 weeks unless you are good at marketing and good at messaging. You just don't. So you were still doing it back then. I was doing it the whole time. Fascinating.

So I think so often people allow the expectations of others to serve as the driving force or the guide for their life. Right. Was that a challenge for you to not allow that to happen? Oh, you know, maybe for a minute, I think, you know, that first bit of criticism that you you get when you release a book. Of course, you release a book and your ego is tied to it and you're so excited about it and the world's finally going to hear your story and all that kind of stuff. And really, one of the first things that happens to you when you do that is you just get punched square in the face. I mean, somebody actually goes on Amazon and said, this is the most

ridiculous thing, blah, blah, and you know, this guy is this or that. And you literally just like, I gave you a love letter and you, this is a, so that hurt for a little while. And then all of a sudden I kind of went, wait, there's a difference between what the public thinks is happening and what's actually happening. And you have to kind of forgive that difference and take responsibility for it because to some degree, you know, they're right. This criticism is actually partly true. So I need to somehow turn the other cheek and learn from this. So I'm grateful for my early riding career because now criticism, it's a millisecond of going, okay, well, that actually is true. Ooh, I do need to fix that.

That's kind of personal and mean. If we sat down and had coffee, we probably wouldn't talk to each other that way. And you just move on. So it did affect you in the beginning. You built the muscle up now. It's right. And it does not now. So now it's a matter of, you know, when you're on a freeway driving your car and you change lanes,

sometimes people will honk at you even though you didn't do it dangerously. There's a feeling of, hey, everybody stay in their lane and keep status quo. I think that's one of the reasons that people stay poor. I think it's one of the reasons people are in relationships that they shouldn't be in. I think it's one of the reasons people live unhealthy lives is because they're staying in their lane. And what they don't realize, you know, if you just get over and somebody honks at you, the good news is you're in a different lane now. You know, and do it again. And now you're in an even differently.

They're only going to honk at you for a few minutes. Okay. So what do you do if those people are your closest friends or your parents or your wife potentially? What do you do in that situation where the people that are honking are saying like, dude, get back in your lane? Yeah, you don't. you keep going into the lane that you want to be in. Is there a time where you do though? Is there a time where like those people are actually a voice of reason? If you are delusional. Yeah. If I called you and we saw each other at the gym, Alex works out the same gym I do.

And you say, Don, looks like you're getting in a good shape. And I say, yeah, you know, I actually want to be a linebacker in the NFL. I think you're about 25 years too old to actually accomplish that. That's the only issue. That's a very other than that. We're good. But, you know, yes, you know, you do want to be called on delusional fantasies. But I'm somebody who just always had a really great ambition. When I was in high school, I wrote down on a piece of paper, I want to be a multimillionaire, I want to be a New York Times bestselling author, I want to do this. In high school, people would have said, this is crazy.

You don't even make good grades, you know. But you sort of like test that stuff and you move into it and you say, is this okay? Is this okay to go here? A lot of people will say no, but you have to push through that resistance and you make it happen. And the more you can understand that, one, people are, they like the status quo, they like the power structure the way it is because they're comfortable. And you are disrupting the power structure in your community. You just need to as kindly as possible give them time to get used to it because you are not going to settle. And I think that's been key for me.

The key is as kindly as possible. But I'm going this way. I'll do it kindly. And I will not take your criticism personally. But this is going to happen. Now, I have lost friendships over this. There were friendships that I had early on. I'm thinking of two or three relationships where it was sort of a mentor-mente relationship.

And as I became a little more successful, that didn't feel like the same relationship. It felt like, actually, I think you might have something to learn from me now. And it was very clear in those relationships that they were not in it for that reason. They were in it because it actually made them feel kind of powerful to be a teacher of mine. Of Donald Miller. That's right. And it's not that we passed each other up. It's just that I no longer needed that advice or see that advice is super helpful.

We can still be friends. You could have done that in a very hostile way, though. We could have, yeah. But in the end, the agreement that they had made with the world was I'm the leader, you're the follower. And when I became more of the leader, those relationships, because I was not going to pretend to be somebody who's still, you know, needed to know what you taught me, those relationships needed to be redefined. And in that redefinition, the agreement was no longer there and they bowed out. Now that, none of that happened formally. Yeah. But that's certainly the way that it felt. Okay. So I look at your bio and I think this guy's

written multiple bestselling books. Blue Like Jazz sold over a million copies. Now he owns a $10 million company. He was on something called a presidential task force, which I didn't even know was a thing. But the list of things you've done is remarkable. And then I hear you say, as a high schooler, I wrote down that I was going to do X, Y, Z. Like, do you look back at that high school list and say, that is one of the reasons why is because I cast a vision? Or did you even remember that whenever you were doing all this? How did all that play in? I remember it really well.

And, you know, here's what happened to me. My mom found some machine somewhere where you could type in a name, and it would print a certificate telling you what that name means. So at like five or six years old, she typed in Donald Lewis Miller into some machine somewhere. I don't know where she got this thing. And it printed out this certificate that said what your name means. And my name meant Fearless Leader. Now, I'm absolutely convinced that somebody just made that up. Fearless Leader, if your name is Kate Jones, you probably got Fearless Leader also.

It was just a random. Fortune Cookie. That's right, a fortune cookie. My mother framed that and hung it in my room. And I remember, I mean, this hung in my room for 10 years. That's pretty powerful. It was very powerful. And I remember reading it and just being terrified.

So I'm reading that I'm a fearless leader. So obviously it should occur to me that this is not a correct assessment of what might do. But I was convinced from a very early age, this is what you have to do. You literally have to become. Otherwise, you're not Donald Miller anymore. Otherwise, you have not lived up to your name. and this is telling you who you are. So you were reading it as an expectation.

Reading it as an expectation. And so this idea of, you know, writing business books or becoming a business leader, all those things. Subconsciously, I think my mind always just said, well, that's who you are, and this is what the world needs from you. And so perhaps I was tricked into a successful life. I don't know. Thanks, Mom. Yeah. Well, honestly, thank you very much because it's been really wonderful.

But I think from an early age, there was this expectation of, no, let's go. out and serve people and have an impact in some possible way. Is vision casting a strength for you? It is. It's a huge strength of mine. Details and execution are not. So I staff my liabilities. I find really, really wonderful people who are very good at, now I'm good at details when it comes to writing a book.

But the actual details in executing a strategy are not my strong suit. And so that's what you've hired for now. I have staffed that all around me. And so I'm really good at vision. And what's amazing to me is my COO's name is Tim. I call him my left brain. We really run a business together. And he's wonderful.

He's a terrific human being. And Tim has told me a few times. He said, Don, I just, it's so weird to me that you wake up and you see something that doesn't exist. You see a building that doesn't exist. You see a podcast that doesn't exist. You see a book that doesn't exist. You see a whole staff and what they. do that doesn't exist. I could just never do that. And that is so foreign to me because I sit there

and go, I just assume everybody thinks this way. You just thought that was normal. I thought it was normal. And what's really beautiful about that is what it tells me is that God did not make me a quote, complete human being in a team sense, that he gave me these liabilities in order to create a beautiful community. Wow. Okay, so that's the question I have. For a visionary, we have seen visionaries who see things that don't exist, but maybe it's pride that gets in the way, maybe it's something else. For whatever reason, they're not willing or able to let go of the control of the putting and operationalizing that vision to someone else. And you have done the exact, you have handed off, you said, aside of your brain to Tim, your C-O, and said,

I'm going to cast the vision and you're going to control, you're going to build this thing to a degree. Was that hard? You know, it wasn't. But I became convinced that one of the best ways to succeed is not actually to know what you're good at, although that's important, but to know what you're bad at. And if you can actually say, I'm bad at this, but in order to accomplish this goal, I'm going to have to get help. If you love the goal more than you love your ego, you'll do it in a heartbeat. Ooh, that's good. Love the goal more than the ego. Yeah.

If you love your goal more than your ego, you can do anything you want. If you want to do something and you're willing to give other people credit, you'll do even more. because people and the truth is they probably did more than you think they did and you were probably not as necessary as you thought you were right but the idea is if you can kind of create one mind with a group of people that one mind is going to be mega brain it's going to get a lot done and that's the goal that is remarkable because in reading scary close I resonated with the version of Donald Miller that struggles with trying to impress people yes and that's one of things but now you're in a business ownership position where literally all you are trying to do do is add value to others and deflect things away from yourself. You're saying, I'm not the hero, you're the hero, I'm the guide, you are doing this thing. How does that shift occur? Well, I'm on Enneagram 3. There are probably a lot of 3s listening, but we are performers. And it's a God-given gift. I don't want to take anything away from it. It's necessary in culture to have these performers and these success-oriented people like you and me. The downside

is it can sometimes be hard to actually connect with other people because you really walk into the room and you want to impress them or you're an actor on a stage. And that's hard to connect with an actor on a stage because they're on a stage. So a lot of times people like you and I would have trouble having conversations like this because these are vulnerable conversations. So I learned early on that if I wanted to connect with my wife and I want to have good relationships, there comes a point where I need to stop acting. One of the ways I learned is fact it's the pivotal way that I learned.

This was huge for me was I have a friend named Joshua Dubois and Joshua worked in the Obama White House. Joshua was the guy who would go into Newtown before the president and prepare him to talk to the parents of the children who had been murdered. Oh, my God. That was his job. So he was in Newtown first. He was in Charleston, South Carolina after the shooting at the black church. He was there.

He was in, I think it was Indiana or Wisconsin, I think, at the Sikh Temple. So he was going in these crisis situations and prepping people to speak to the president. And also prepping the president. Joshua, when I asked him, Josh, what do you do to prepare somebody for that? I mean, how do you prepare the president? How do you prepare that environment? And he said, well, it was actually Obama really taught me. You know, he is a performer.

He's probably an Enneagram 3. But he said, you cannot be an actor on a stage. You have to show up and be human. And be human means look somebody in the eye, be okay with not knowing exactly what to say, which is hard for an Enigram 3. let there be awkward human moments between people. Awkward silence. Awkward silences.

Be human. And when I heard, well, the President of the United States is okay, with the highest stakes possible, walking in and being human, I should be okay, too. And not only that, but walking in and being human is actually a great recipe for success. So in the end, you want to perform to be successful, but it's counterintuitive. You walk in and be a human, and sometimes things are awkward. You don't exactly know what to say. you showed up, you're there, and you're vulnerable in the moment. That's what's radically successful.

Well, it's also what people connect with and what I think is our responsibility as evolved human beings. How has that recognition played into your leadership? You know, recently we let somebody go and some of it was their fault and some of it was my fault because I didn't do a good job leading them or setting expectations and things that I needed for them to do. and I certainly didn't do a good job putting a support staff around them. I had to own that.

So you have to look them in the eye and say, I'm at fault a lot here, and be there, don't be an actor on a stage, don't try to be right, and be fully human. So that's actually helped quite a bit. And the alternative there is blame. The alternative is shift blame. And those companies cap at about $5 million. They don't get a whole lot bigger.

What are you most passionate about right now? Building the middle class. We talked about it earlier. You know, there was a pivot from writing memoirs to building a business, And I expect Storybrand to go to $100 million. You know, we're 10 million now. So that's a lot of work to do. Do you ever just sit in the moment and say, like, I just casually said that I expect my

company to go to $100 million? Does that ever feel like, oh, my, did I just say? Do you ever have that look in the mirror moment where it's like, is, am I in the middle of this right now? I don't. I don't. I just tend to, you know, if you're driving an F1 car, you're not thinking, I'm driving an F1.

You better pay attention to the next curve because you're going to roll this baby. No, I'm very, very grateful. Betsy and I live on a fixed income. We're the third or fourth highest paid people at our company. The rest of the money goes into investments that we don't mess with and charitable giving. So to me, to say $100 million doesn't change anything for me. And not to say we don't live well. I drive a really nice used F-150.

You know, I'm very happy. I love that. So no, that doesn't. But the shift from writing memoirs to building this company, there's a goal that I want to hit with the company. And after that, it will be a life hopefully from. 55 for the rest of my life on, you know, 20 really hopefully good years will be in public service, either as a politician running for office, but preferably as a support player to help, you know, I did a task force with Obama, and I'm a Republican, but the task force was really encouraging

to hear. It was on fatherhood and healthy families, and Obama recognized that we have a fatherhood crisis in this country. He's the only president who's ever done that. You don't have to be Democrat to agree with that. No, in fact, it was focused on. the family was on the task force. It was, you know, it was a good, healthy task force. And that made me realize how, one, how slow government moves. It's unbelievable. But at the end of that, we were able to

get some legislation through and some policies through that reunited fathers coming out of prison with their own children and gave them an emotional reason not to go back to prison. Well, that saves taxpayers an enormous amount of money and it changes family's lives. And when I saw the power of that I thought, I wonder what the power of the tax code is. And I wonder what the power of our education policies are. And I began to see these are incredibly powerful dynamics that we don't realize have, by the way, made an American life wonderful, maybe the best quality of life in the world and in the history of the world. Today.

These are all policies set forth by our founding fathers. And so I would consider myself a conservative, though people probably, some people wouldn't because I'm open-minded to other ideas. but I want to conserve those policies and traditions. So it's so interesting to hear someone that is remarkably creative, that is extremely ambitious, that is a self-described, and obviously everyone would agree with this, a visionary, say, the federal government. That's what I'm interested in now. Well, we've made an enemy out of the federal government, but if we keep making them enemies, what point is a good person going to show up and actually help? It's supposed to be a government of the people. It is, yeah, so we need some more good folks in there.

Who are the people that you look up to most right now? Oh, our former governor here in Tennessee, Bill Haslam, our current governor, Bill Lee, with his development and education stuff that he's done is just the solution to so many problems. Bill Haslam has become a friend, and I look up to him a great deal. There are a lot of thinkers that I look up to a lot, but everybody else would be personal. I mean, Bob Goff is a very close friend. Bob has this ability to not be naive about the way the world is. It's a very dark world in many corners of the world, but he never struggles with nihilism. He wakes up every day and brings a little light into the darkness.

I think we need more and more of that. I'm surrounded by people who are just so inspirational. Old friend John Richmond and I used to get barbecue when I lived in D.C., he's now Ambassador Richmond on human trafficking and makes the trafficking in person's report every year. I'm telling you, for every villain, there are a thousand. And we just, our mind goes to the villain too quickly. There are a thousand good guys for every bad guy, I promise you. That's a pretty remarkable story to share. I'll tell you, for me as a 27-year-old, and we've got a lot of young 20-somethings or 30-somethings

that listen to this, I hear about all of the things that you've been involved in and all of the things that you've done and all the things that you're currently doing and the vision that you have for the future, there's a part of me that is beyond inspired. and then there's a part of me that thinks, my goodness, I'm just never, I'm never going to be able to do all that. Like, how on earth does he even do all that? What would you say to that person that feels both in awe and in admiration, but at the same time, daunted by the wall of work that is what you've been able to accomplish? Well, I would say to you, Alex, at 27, I had never really made more than about $20,000 a year. Right at your age, I became president

of a publishing company. I think I made 50 grand that year because it was a small company, then immediately got poor again. At 29 or 30, finally wrote Blue Like Jazz, and that's when things took off. So really, I was a late bloomer. And I would say, if we were in a race, you're about eight miles ahead of me. So I think you're doing pretty darn well. And I think you would just be amazed at how if you stay curious and let your mind get excited about things, and don't ever give in to the cancer of cynicism. The rest takes care of itself. Well, thank you so much for your time today.

We're super grateful for it. I'm super grateful for it selfishly. Donald Miller, thanks so much. Alex, thank you. Great work, Alex. Isn't it fun to sit with somebody that is that smart? Sometimes, I don't know if it's like this for you, but sometimes I feel like I'm completely, the water's over my head.

And I'm just trying to keep my nose up. Yeah, he is. Yeah, he is. It is amazing. So, yeah, that was a blast. I hope our listeners enjoyed it as much as that. Well, I enjoyed it. Great work, man, and we're excited to have you back on the program. So appreciate what you're doing. Thanks, Ken. All right, folks. You're going to hear more from Alex in future episodes. And if I look at my notes, that's going to do it. I hope you're as sad as I am. But we've got to end it. There's nothing else coming. So on behalf of the entire Entree leadership team, thank you so much for listening. We'll talk with you again very soon.

Hey folks, I want to make you aware that we have other great podcasts from Ramsey Solutions. Here's a sample of the Ken Coleman Show. According to a recent Gallup poll, nearly 70% of Americans are disengaged at work. If you dread going into work every Monday morning and you're just trying to make it to the weekend, the Ken Coleman show is for you. Everyone has a sweet spot. Your sweet spot is at the intersection of your greatest talent and greatest passion. We will help you discover what it is you will.

born to do and then we'll help you create a plan to make your dream job a reality. You matter and you have what it takes. Join the conversation on the Ken Coleman Show. To hear full episodes, just search Ken Coleman in iTunes or go to Ken Colemanshow.com.