EntreLeadership - #335: Why Self-Knowledge Matters with Ian Morgan Cron

Episode Date: August 12, 2019

There’s a lot of talk these days about the importance of self-awareness—and for good reason—but bestselling author and Enneagram master teacher Ian Morgan Cron says nearly 90% of us aren’t self-aware at all. Not to mention, many of us are lacking the self-knowledge necessary to build that awareness in the first place. Tune in as Ian makes the case for getting to know yourself so that you can become aligned with what matters most to you. The result? A life lived with both passion and purpose—and fewer costly mistakes along the way, too. We’re also joined by Daniel Tardy (Ramsey Solutions’ Executive Vice President of Business and Leadership) and Jen Sievertsen (Ramsey Solutions’ Chief Marketing Officer) with an insightful look at the ultimate leadership position: parent.   entreleadership.com/podcast The Road Back to You by Ian Morgan Cron Ian Morgan Cron's website Typology podcast Enneagram Assessment iEQ9 Free training: Escape Survival Mode Tips for Creating a Work/Life Balance from Belay Review this episode for a chance to win a $25 Amazon gift card   Want expert help with your business question? Call 844-944-1070 and leave a message or send an email to [e-mail]. You could be featured on a future podcast episode! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You need more self-awareness. Like, no, wait a minute, you need self-knowledge first. There's no point in having self-awareness if you don't have a data set to work with. What am I supposed to be aware of if I don't know who I am? Helping business leaders grow themselves, their team, and their profits. This is Entrey Leadership. Now, here's your host, Ken Coleman. Coming to you from the Music City, this is the broadcast of leaders by leaders for leaders.

Thank you so much for joining the conversation. Here's what we got coming up. Ian Kron, who is the Enneagram genius. He's been on this program before. He's back with us. And you're going to hear from two of our premier Ramsey Solutions leaders, Daniel Tarty and Jen Sievertson, on an all-important topic leading at home and at work. So let's get right to it.

Alex Judd is one of our Entree Leadership coaches. And he is the host of the Entree Leadership Summit and Entree Leadership Master Series. He's been carrying some of our entree leadership coaches. He's been carrying some of the interview duties for several weeks now, and so you're used to his voice. And he sat down recently with the best-selling author and the Enneagram guru, Ian Kron. Alex, welcome back to the studio. Thanks so much for having me, Ken. I'm excited to share this with our audience.

Ian is the author of the book The Road Back to You, which really details what the eneagram is and why also self-awareness is so important in the life of the leader. So here's my interview with Ian Kron. One of the things I value most about you in listening to your podcast and reading your books is really your perspective on things. You kind of bring the whole repertoire of your experience into your conversations. So I wrote down a couple of kind of cultural cliches that we hear in the workplace today. And I wanted to hear your thoughts on them. The first one I wanted to hear, the one you hear all the time, is follow your passion. How does Ian Kron view the phrase follow your passion?

Well, first of all, I hate cliches. platitudes and cliches in general always kind of annoy me because I'm like, yeah, but, you know, because I'm a little bit of a contrarian around those things. I know you are and that's why I'm doing this. Yeah. Well, follow your passion. I mean, I get it. You know, follow what you love. I think align yourself with what matters most to you in this life. Does that make sense? In other words, I do believe all of us are sent here with a particular errand. Okay, I'm with a guy not long ago. And he was a good. a guitarist in town here. He was an okay guitar player.

I mean, I was a songwriter. He could talk him to around a lot of great artists in my time. And he was describing, you know, he was like in his 30s and stuff. You know, he was still in the basement practicing and stuff. And he's kind of like, I don't know if I should I do. Should I stay with that? I go, are your friends telling you anything about this? And he's like, no, no, no.

I said, and I considerably older than his. I said, can I do you a favor? Very good. Oh, God. And I said, I think you need to give this up. Wow. This town is 25 deep in guys who spend 20 hours a day pursuing this passion. And you don't.

What do you really want to do with your life? And what is it you might be avoiding or resisting doing by continuing on in this sort of fantasy that you're going to be a guitar player in Nashville? You want to talk about ripping off the Band-Aid with someone. That probably hurt a lot from him. Yes. But at the same time, that conversation probably changed his life. And I think we all, especially in a leadership position, there's a part of leadership that you kind of take on the responsibility of having conversations like that.

So how do you even go about having that conversation with someone that you see, like, you're not pursuing the right thing. You're not running in the right lane. What advice would you have to leaders that know that that's part of their responsibility? So that's, I gave you an extract from a much longer conversation with him. I had enough relational capital with him to make that statement, enough knowledge about him to make that statement. He was asking me in a way to weigh in on that part of his life. And so I don't want to make it sound like I just came in and, you know,

hit him with a right hook. By the way. Put the guitar down. But what's interesting is that guy is now in graduate school studying to do something utterly different. And he's very happy. It's like, you changed his life. Well, I mean, I saved him time, and that's kind of what I think self-knowledge does. I'm just going to save your time, man.

This is not your lane, right, to use your phrase. It's like, yeah, you're a good guitarist, but there are a million awesome guitarists in this town, and you don't seem to have the same level of investment in becoming as good as they are as they do. What should that tell us? You need to kind of maybe wake up out of autopilot and figure out who you are and get aligned with your purpose for why you're here and stop maybe running down this bunny trail because it sounds more like a fantasy than a dream.

Gosh, I love that. The way, just by the lens that we look at everything here, I look at that and I say, that is leadership. That is mentorship. That is pouring into someone. You're saving him time. I'm saving them time, and I'm trying to do it from a posture of love and care

because you were saying before, you know, is it possible, another word for leadership is stewardship? Explain that. you're stewarding people. People say leadership, and I'm a little bit like, what they're saying is,

how do I get people to do what I want them to? And I'm like, well, that just doesn't sound all that healthy. Sounds to me like you have been entrusted with these people. They've said, I'm going to show up to work with you from eight to five. Yeah, you have been entrusted with them.

And if you think they could check their private lives at the door when they walked in here, they came in here with all the wounds and all the sorrows and all the joy, all the gifts that they carry with them, that, you know, you are entrusted with whatever number of souls or hearts every day,

your job is not just to lead them, but to steward them and their gifts. I mean, I hate to, you know, this sounds woo-woo, I know, whatever. The fact that matter is, is that you're shepherding people, whether you like it or not. And sometimes, you know, yeah, you've got to rip a Band-Aid off. Sometimes you've got to, you know, everything should be done, I think,

with sort of a other-person focus. It's like, how do I help this person live into the finest expression of them? How do I help them complete the errand upon which they've been sent here to do? It's almost a buzzword right now, the phrase servant leadership. And I love the concept. I love the idea. It seems like it can be overused and sometimes misrepresented. But what you just said about helping someone else find an errand, I feel like that is serving someone.

It is serving someone. And by the way, once they're freedom to do that stuff, they'll perform. And by the way, they'll also perform for you. If they know that's your heart, trust me. I mean, people are hungry in the workplace to be seen, to be understood, to be valued, to be told their presence matters, that what they bring to life's table is unique and important, that when they weigh in on something, their advice or their counsel is taken into consideration or baked into the calculations that the leader has to, decisions have the leader has to make,

this is the reason people quit is when a boss doesn't do those things. Right? I don't see you. I don't understand the value you bring to the company. I don't care what you have to say. This is why people quit. So if you want to have good retention in a company,

I got a good idea. If you have a little self-knowledge, right, if you care about the people you're leading in such a way that you appreciate their differences and you are trying to help them do what they're here to do, man, all kinds of good stuff will break. out. All kinds of health. I love that because I think it resonates. And I think everyone listening today would probably think of that person that's done that for them. Okay, another

cultural cliche for you. And I think you already addressed this a little bit. It's not personal. It's just business. When someone says to you it's not personal, it's business. It's personal. That's the key that you know. Yeah. Come on. It's like what someone says, it's not about the money. Whenever someone says it's not about the money, it's always about the money then. That's right. You know, really, seriously, that's like, listen, business is, it is personal. I think if we have to have two selves, you know, like I'm being personal self or here I am over here being professional self and there are two rules of the road here, two guys, that's a divided self, right? That's a divided self. Now, granted, in the business world, you know, business is a contact sport, right?

So the idea that we can divorce the personal from the professional is a stupid idea. Not to put too final point on it, but it is. It's dumb that there's a professional self and a private self or a personal self, I mean? That's an unfair sort of binary way of thinking. It doesn't make any sense. Have you ever seen the implications of when someone does live out that bifurcation? Oh, yeah. What happens?

Addictions, people at odds with their own values, right? It's like, well, you know, do you operate by the same values in your personal life as you do in your business life? I sure would like to know that, the answer to that question before I do business with you. You know what I'm saying? In other words, people, you know, this is just even an idea from religious traditions, right? A house divided against itself can't stand. You have two selves operating inside. I don't know.

That just sounds like unhealth to me. There should be some level of stability. Now, again, adaptability too. I don't wander around the office in my boxers like I do at home. And you can be thankful for that. Yeah, we're all very grateful. to you. But the fact of the matter is I try to live by the same set of principles and ideas and ideals in both places. You know, I'm committed to transparency and honesty. You know,

sometimes in the workplace, that's more difficult when it's easier to kind of cloud things a little bit because it's to my benefit. Nope, can't do that. I think what we want to have in life is a sense of consistency and of integritas, which means wholeness, integrity, wholeness. It's not being divided. Does that make sense? It does. To live out of a place of wholeness. I think the whole sort of line between professional and personal, making distinctions between the two,

I don't know, there's something about that that that doesn't smell right to me. Yeah. I agree. That's not a person that I would follow is the person that's living two separate lives. No. That scares the heck out of me. No, granted, again, there is adaptability. My personality at home is, to some degree, has to change at work.

Right? But I hope it doesn't depart too far, because if it's does. I think you're heading toward a place of real in health. That's real good. One more for you. People have called it the strengths revolution, right? And this idea of focus on your strengths. Don't spend too much time on your weakness. Just focus on your strengths. Through the lens of the unionogram, but also just what you know about human nature. What are your thoughts there? Well, I would focus on both. I mean, your strengths and your weaknesses, your shadow and your light. Here's a deal. What's best about us tends to be what's worst about us, and what's worse about us tends to be what's, you know,

best about us, right? So we need to know about both. I mean, self-knowledge, we need to be ruthlessly honest with ourselves in life. Because the human heart, human beings just in general, are fairly self-deceptive. We're pretty self-deceptive, right? I mean, we're all very prone to it. I want to know what my, I mean, I don't like my weaknesses. So let me give you an example. I've been in recovery for a long time, right? Through a period of my life of drug use and alcohol. And I'm just telling you, man, radical self-honesty, it's important. It's not pleasant all the time, but it's important. That's self-knowledge. It's the kind of self-knowledge you need to live in the world as a humble person, right-sized. You know what I mean? Right-sized. It's the ability to say, you know what,

some power bigger than me better be running this show because if I take over at the helm, bad things happen typically. You know what I mean? Yeah. And it's just the ability to move through the world with a kind of trust and faith that things work out when we turn it over. So I guess I do feel like, you know, in the workplace, the absence of that kind of wisdom, you know, we need more wisdom. And wisdom is born out of self-knowledge. In fact, I think it was Aristotle. He said that, you know, the beginning of self-knowledge is the beginning of all wisdom. And so, again, it's just this, you know, who doesn't want to take a test called Strengths Finder?

I mean, seriously, come on, man. Who's the marketing guy who came up with Strengths Finder? He's brilliant. Yeah, no kidding. I'm going to have one. You know, the Enneagram is more like, you know, it is about strengths finding, but it's also about weakness uncovering. and recognizing where can I go bad. Okay, so that's huge.

Whenever I read your book, it was a couple of years ago, one of the greatest pieces of self-knowledge that it brought to me and the group that I was with that was going through the book was, it shines so much light on what is actually motivating and driving you at the core. Like, oh, this is the reason why I'm actually getting out of bed in the morning. This is the reason why I do those little ticks. This is the reason why I've always felt that way. And so there's something to the idea that everyone kind of has this unique motive and all our motives are different.

First of all, dive in that a little bit, teach us on that a little bit and then explain to us like, how do we go about discerning what is driving and motivating? What is at the core of why we're doing things? Yeah, boy, that's a good question. And I don't know sure we have the time. But let me put it you this way. Human beings, human ego, would have us or like us to believe that it is more in control of our lives than it actually is. is. There are so many hidden presences and forces underneath the water line of consciousness that lie just beyond the fence line of awareness that are driving the ways that we typically act,

think, and feel, the way that we see the world, the ways that we relate to other people, right? Yeah. And oftentimes it takes a crash in someone's life before they realize, oh my gosh, I had so many blind spots. I had no idea that's what was driving my need for finding love outside of my primary relationship. Yeah. Or for using drugs or drinking, or my drive for success, or my, you know what I mean? It's like, I just didn't know what was driving. It requires a rock bottom.

Right. So I actually, you know what, I had a guy not long ago say something that was profoundly moving. He's a very successful business guy that was in rehab. And he said, you know, it's like I have a plug in my heart. And it took this experience for me to kind of go back and figure out where it was. plugged in. Like what was it that was fueling my life? Like what was it that was driving my addiction? What was it driving my need to succeed? Driving my need to perfect. You know, whatever it is. You guys kind of go back. What's this? What am I plugged into? Like, where's my power strip?

Where's that thing that I need to... Because if I don't know what that is, it owns me. That thing owns you. If you don't know about it, what remains unconscious, owns you. Because it can work autonomously without your knowing it. So you need to know what the unconscious motivations are by surfacing them. Now, let me save you time. When the anagram, one of the reasons it's helpful is it just lays them out. You don't have to go to rehab to figure this out. You don't know what I mean?

Yeah, you don't have to have a wrong-bottom experience. In other words, let me save you some time. That's right. And about $40,000. So, you know, I just think it's like, is it a perfect instrument? No. No self-it-I-Finder's disc, Colby-Hogan. None of these things are perfect.

Yeah. Right. They're low-resolution pictures. And that's what we need, right? At the very least, a low-res picture is better than no picture. Right? No kidding. And so nothing is going to give us a high-res picture of what's going on inside of us.

So, you know, we're looking through a glass dimly, you know? It's like, but we need to be looking and we need to, even if you could get 5% more clarity and more self-knowledge, that's a lot, bro. In the overall scheme of things, 5% more clarity puts you. way ahead of the curve of other people. And it's going to impact people. It's going to impact culture. It's going to impact the bottom line if you can just have an increased self-knowledge. Totally.

Okay. So from a leadership perspective, the recognition that everyone that works for me or that works with me has a unique motive. They have a unique power source that they're plugged into. How should that affect leadership? Oh, yeah. Well, let's say you were working for me, right? You're a three on the Antigram. Let's say I know that, right?

And I'm a self-aware person, a self-aware leader who really cares deeply about you thriving and flourishing in the world, right? Yes. I want to motivate you. Okay. I know that to get you to perform optimally, then I probably ought to set up a performance-based merit system, right? Yep. Okay. You're hitting the nail on the head already.

I ought to talk to you about promotions and bonuses, right? I ought to set up a system for you because I know. know that part of what drives you or excites you that lights you up is that you those types of things matter to you if you were a five on the enneagram or a different type of human being i wouldn't do that you know what i mean something different totally if you were let's say uh i realize not everyone who's listening is an enneagram understands it but there are some people if they want a bonus they want more autonomy they want to work from Starbucks they want to work from home they're more private than you are they're letting out people people you know what I'm saying so yeah

I would tell that, I would say, don't make this poor guy working an open workspace. Let them go work in Starbucks in the corner. You know what I mean? And that would be the motivator. That would be the driver. Totally. It would be a huge piece of it. There are certain people who are just very private.

So again, it starts with understanding, number one, yourself, but then understanding the people you work with and really start to get to know what is driving them. Yes. And things like the anagram can help you have a template. So, like, all right, so I work with lots of companies. I go in and I throw out the anagram. I talk to them about nine different. personality styles.

Yeah. Two, I've never had someone walk out saying, oh, I don't think that's true, or I didn't relate to one of those, right? I go back for follow-ups and people are like, oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Like, now I understand why that person needs to do this or that. Now I know how to help this person do that. Yeah.

Now, suddenly like, I'm not fooling you. This is going to sound so overstated, but I'm just telling the truth, and I hate overstatements. But people have this sort of, you know, scales falling from the eyes moment with it. like, oh, you mean the things that motivate Alex are not the things that motivate Ian. And the things that delight you don't delight me. And if I'm a leader and I just think everything that delights me should delight everybody else, that's not good. And you're not going to maximize your organization that way. No, no, not at all. So when you know other people, again, you talk about getting rid of inefficiencies, getting rid of conflict, getting rid of, you know, toxic

cultures where people feel bullied. Talk about getting rid of everything that hinders forward movement because you're spending all this time because communication styles are different. People don't understand how each other communicate. You can eliminate a lot of this stuff by using things like the Antiogram and just developing self-knowledge and also holding it up to your team as a value. Yeah. And here's why I say self-knowledge in addition to self-awareness.

Again, self-knowledge is a precursor to self-awareness. Every time in the business literature these days I'm reading, you need more self-awareness. You need self-awareness. I'm like, no, wait a minute, you need self-knowledge first. There's no point in having self-awareness if you don't have a data set to work with. What am I supposed to be aware of if I don't know who I am? If I don't know my weaknesses, what should activate my self-awareness when I see it happening? So in other words, it's like you've got to do the hard work of self-knowledge before you can enjoy the hard work of self-knowledge before you can enjoy the benefits of self-awareness. Yeah, do the hard work of self-knowledge before you can enjoy the benefits of self-awareness. Man, tweet that. That is good. Okay, I don't know if that was off the cover, not, but that was impressive, Ian. In leadership or with leadership comes more exposure. And with that comes more expectations, more opinions, and inevitably more criticism.

For the healthy individual, how do you filter what opinions, criticism, expectations I should let into my heart. to my soul and affect who I am or the person I'm going to be, and which of it do we just move past and not worry about? I guess you've got to consider the source. None of us likes criticism, but I think certain personality styles to certain people are better with it than others. Some people are more thin-skinned, you know? I think there are certain types of people for whom leadership in certain context doesn't work.

Yeah. It's just too difficult, right? Like, for example, I was with a pastor of a church the other day, and I don't know of a job where you get, I don't know of a harder job, actually. I remember pastoring in church. Oh, my God, over 300. I remember Peter Drucker one time saying the three artists jobs in America that are in the world are hospital administrator, college president, university president, pastor of a church of

larger than 300 people. I was like, what? What was that third one? He's like, because you're constantly under scrutiny. There's always someone of the church that thinks you're a failure or in the company or in the university or in the hospital, right? You've got all these interest groups, all who believe that. that their way of seeing things and their priorities should be your priorities. And everyone has a

past church that's informing their current experience, too. And you're underpaid, you're overworked, and you're overeducated. Think about that. That's a bad trifecta. Yeah, no joke. Okay, so unless this is your errand, for legit, like this is really your errand, you're not going to make it. Yeah. So I think for people that are thin-skinned, I mean, they're just jobs that are tough, right? But consider your sources, you know. If it's not even a reliable, source. If where you're taking the heat from, you know, go to someone who is reliable and ask them, is that criticism valid? From that person that I just heard or from that group or this email or whatever from this newspaper, go to someone you do trust. And ask, is that valid? Here's a question

I tell leaders that this is, now this is graduate school level and self-knowledge work. Okay, because here's the deal. You can't just read a, I mean, yes, I want you to read a book on self-knowledge. Yes, I want you to learn things like Danny Graham or take your Myers-Bricks. I want you to develop a knowledge set about yourself. But the honest and goodness truth is is that most of what you're going to learn about yourself, you're going to learn from others. You are a mystery to yourself.

You're not a fishbowl. You can't look inside. You go, oh, look, there are my mother issues. It's like, you can't do that, right? It doesn't work that way. You're not transparent. Secondly, it's difficult because actually the conscious mind,

the unconscious mind, when you start to get too close to uncomfortable, dangerous truths about yourself, the unconscious mind will divert your attention away from looking at things that are inconsistent with your self-concepts. That is horrifying. Well, it's just true.

Yeah. Right? That's why sometimes it requires a crash before a leader has to look at the stuff in their life that needs examining that they've managed to avoid looking at. So go to a friend and ask this question. Make sure it's someone you trust

and it's not your spouse, okay? Ask this question, what do you know about me that I don't know about me, but I should? What do you know about me that I don't know about me, but I should. Someone you trust, someone you trust, someone that you know has your best interest in mind,

isn't there to beat you up or anything like that? I've asked that question to someone before, and the information that came back was painful, embarrassing mostly. You know what I mean? Because it's like, oh my gosh, I've been doing that my whole life, and it's like, essentially it's like, you know,

oh my gosh, my zipper has done closed. Yeah, exactly. You know what I've been walking around with my zipper down for the last 40 years. I mean, you know what I'm saying? It's like, oh, that feels. great. This person actually says something to me that blue, I don't mind telling you this story.

Do we have time for it? Because it's a good story. Mike Hyatt, great leader and a dear, dear friend. He was just on the program. Okay, so Mike's one of my closest friends. I've told this story before, so he won't mind. I was moaning and groaning about something one day. This was years ago. I was complaining about a publisher. And Mike was in publishing at that time.

And I was just railing. I was kind of like, just, you know, the British is called, winching. I was just complaining, you know, and kind of whining about it. And Mike kind of looked at me on point, and he said, you know, Ian, you often blame other people for things going wrong in your life that maybe you're part. I can't remember exactly how he said. It was far more articulate than that. Basically, he was saying to me, it was like, you know, stop blaming other people for what's not going right in your life.

And I look. It was some of the best advice I've ever been given. I was about saying, that's also a really good friend. That was a great friend. He told me something about myself. I didn't know, but I needed to. most people aren't going to tell you that stuff. You know, it spends too many calories to have these kinds of conversations for most people.

You know what I mean? It's like, I don't want the conflict. You have to really care about someone to step in. Yeah, and you've got to pick your moments and you've got to pick, you know, know that there's enough money in the bank in the relationship to make that kind of withdrawal. You know, or what might feel like a withdrawal. But, I mean, ultimately, he has said a couple of things to me in my life that have changed my direction on some things. We see the world through different lenses. but I have benefited from him

allowing me to see the world through his lens and hopefully he's experienced it that I reciprocate and give him opportunity to see the world through mine and to benefit from it. But man, those are self-knowledge questions, man. What do you know about me and I don't and I should? In my head I'm trying to think about,

okay, who am I going to ask? I've got my list running. That's a valuable, poignant question. It's a powerful question. kind of related to that in a degree, I want to know just with regard to self-awareness and with regard to self-knowledge, it sounds like what you're saying is we can't figure this out alone. And at the same time, we always hear that. And to use another cultural cliche, it's lonely at the top, right? And we see that business leaders, one of the biggest challenges they face is isolation.

From your perspective, if you're trying to play the preventative role of a therapist, what do you? you tell that person that would self-identify as someone that is isolated. Oh, boy. Yeah, I mean, the problem with success, you start hanging around with other successful people who are all actually facing the same issues that you are, and so all you're doing is trading ignorances all day. It's so true. That's the chuckle of recognition.

Yeah, I mean, it's like, okay, we're all just talking about the same thing. We have no outside perspective from people who aren't particularly successful, or in the same way successful, right? I mean, I think loneliness is a terrible, terrible problem in the workplace as a whole. and it's probably no more acute than it is at the top. Loneliness is an enormous problem in the workplace. I mean, we could have another episode talking about all the research that's being done now on the problems of loneliness in the workplace.

But it is lonely at the top, right? And I would say that we all need a group of people in our lives who are in relationship with us in what I call disinterested relationships. So I want people in my life who want to be. with me, not because I write books or because they're part of my team and they make money based on what I do. In other words, there's no interest in the relationship outside of just the pure joy and the interest in the relationship. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. A lot of times leaders, people in positions of power and leadership, you know, it's hard to discern. Is this person

want to be with me because of what I can offer them or because they really just want to be with me? Yeah. Without my job title, without my recognition or success. It's very, very hard. You need to find disinterested friendships, right? In other words, friendships that don't have an interest in what you can offer them by virtue of money or success or power, influence, you know, just want to be with you for you, right? And that's hard to find. Leaders, unfortunately, can also be the people who drive themselves into isolation because they've invested their whole life and nothing else but work. I was just, that's so funny you say that. I was just about to say that what you're saying hits home so much with me personally because one of my greatest strengths is that I dive in head first in my work,

one of my greatest vices that I dive in head first of my work. I'll go all at it. And some of the best friends that I have in my life could care less about what I do. Yeah. You know it's interesting. Do you know who Henry Nowan was? I know that name. What do I know that name?

And now was a Catholic priest. And years ago, he's dead now. He was a very complicated human being, a beautiful writer and a great thinker, but very wounded as a person. and had a terrible need to be recognized and valued by other people. And he had become quite famous as a writer and a speaker. And toward the end of his life, he moved into a community of people with profound, emotional, mental, and physical disabilities. I mean, profound, right?

And what he said was it was so moving to live with people who loved him without having any idea of who he was. They didn't know he was famous, didn't recognize his name. They couldn't read. They couldn't speak, some of them. And they just loved him for his being there with them. Powerful. I want to talk a little bit about your work.

Your podcast typology, it's one of my favorites to listen to because it is literally, I mean, it feels like it's an interview. You're also listening in on a coaching session. And then you're kind of the fly on the wall in a counseling session. I mean, and it's just you get all these remarkable people on there that you're, and then the questions that you ask, I'm like, oh, Mike, like, I'm literally on the edge of my seat waiting for the answer. I want to know, is there any patterns or threads that you recognize? You've interviewed a bunch of remarkable people and gone pretty deep with a lot of them. Are there any threads or any patterns or anything you've learned in doing that? You know, it's funny.

I think everybody feels different and separate. You know what I mean? Like, I think everyone goes, I'm different. And what I'm learning is that what makes you different is what makes you the same. In other words, if you feel different, guess what? So does everybody else. That makes you like everybody else. The fact that you feel different means you're like everybody else.

You know what I mean? And that's part of the gift of when you learn about different personality styles, you realize, oh, I'm not the only person like this. There are lots of people who, like me, believe that they have to succeed in order to be loved or they need to perfect everything in order to be loved. You know what I mean? There are lots of us out there who see the world through this lens.

And you know what? That brings a lot of consolation. into the world, we all feel different. We all feel, you know, a little off-center or a little weird. A little weird. And, you know, it's the truth that matter is you're not. You're just not that. You know, there's nothing worse, I think, than to feel like you suffer alone in the world.

You know what I mean? You're already teeing us up for our next conversation about loneliness. Yeah. But I think people really do feel a terrible sense of loneliness. Yeah. And by the way, it's inevitable in this world that you would. but it doesn't mean that you have to capitulate to the assumptions that come with loneliness

you're not so different now for some people that's bad news you know because they actually kind of like you know I want to think I'm so just terminally unique but really we're all part of this human family we all carry our own wounds and we need to carry that knowledge into the world again self-knowledge it's like know your own wounds

and just always remain aware everybody else is carrying one, at least many as well. That recognition alone can do a massive work just on your level of empathy that you have for others. Yes. So you've alluded a lot and talked a little bit about the Enneagram in this conversation. If someone is an Enneagram novice, or maybe this is the first time they've heard of it, give us just the brief explanation of what that is, and then you've got a new tool that really helps with that. Yeah, yeah, totally.

So the Enigram is an ancient personality typing system. that teaches there are nine core personality types in the world, one of which we gravitate toward an adoptant childhood is a way to cope and feel safe in the world, right? And each of those nine types has an unconscious motivation that dramatically influences a way that type, acts, thinks, feels, and sees the world. Okay?

So we were talking about self-knowledge earlier, right? Like, be really good to get some self-knowledge around which of those is you. Yeah. Which of those unconscious motivations is driving you, It's un-you-den-know it was, but it is, right? And so I have a new assessment called the IEQ-9. There are a lot of Enegram assessments out there.

None of them are perfect. Myers-Briggs isn't, Colby isn't, Hogan isn't. None of these things are perfect. This one's pretty dang good. I'm really proud of it. And if people go to my website, euncron.com, look at IEQ9, my website. They'll discover it. And, again, it's a data point.

Yeah. It's going to give you a low-res picture of what, going on inside. But man, it's better than no picture. No kidding. Well, I will tell you, I took the anagram and read your book, gosh, it was probably three years ago now, and I will never forget. I sat down and I said, anytime that I've taken a Strengths finders or Myers-Briggs or a disc or anything like that, I've always said, oh my gosh, this is totally me. And then I took the Instagram and I was like, oh my gosh, this is totally me. Yeah. It has been revolutionary for my personal journey in life, but certainly in the work.

place as well. It's radically impacted our team. Almost our entire team is taken as well. The thing that I was so stoked about whenever I saw that you were launched in the IEQ is for a long time, because I did it here at work, I would talk to a lot of my friends about it and they would always ask me where they should do it. And I never had a good answer for them. And I'm so glad because I always told them to read your book. Now they can take your test. So I'm really stoked about that. Or they can do both. Or they can do both. That's right. Very good. But anyway, I want to do it. I want to tell them. I want to thank you for creating that resource because I can't imagine the time that that took to create an assessment that does it so accurately. I would encourage anyone listening to this. It is an incredible

tool that will give you the first step in all the self-knowledge things that he is talking about. Final question for you, and we've hit on this a little bit already, but leaders in general struggle with feelings of inadequacy, insecurity, loneliness. And we know that probably right now, if a lot of people are being honest, they are listening to this and they would say, that's where I'm at. What would you tell that person? Boy, that's a difficult question to answer because there's no short answer to it. People feel that way for lots of different reasons. I guess what I would say is that they're not alone.

This goes back to something I said earlier. there's nothing worse than believing that you suffer alone. You know, I hear people say this all the time, and I want to, like, you know, just give them a backhand. They'll say something to the effect of, oh, you know, I don't know how you feel. I'm sure this is hard, and I don't know how you feel. I'm like, don't tell me that.

Please don't tell me that. You know, the fact that matter is, within a square mile of your, there are hundreds of people who know how you feel right now. You feel depressed, you feel inadequate, you feel like, you know, embarrassed, you feel ashamed, you feel this. It's like, within a square mile,

out here, there are thousands of people who know exactly what you're feeling right now and how it feels. Sometimes people think they kind of like, they want to exceptionalize your pain. That you're the only one. You're the only one. Or your particular experience of that feeling is unique to you. It's like, don't tell me that. That just makes me lonelier than when I started this conversation. What I want to know is that you feel the same way that I do, that we share a common humanity, our experience of shame, inadequacy, brokenness of heroicism, of whatever it is, the good and the bad, you know exactly what it's like to feel what I'm feeling. When people tell me that they feel inadequate and stuff like that, I'm like, well, welcome. You know what I mean?

Now, the worst thing you could do is to deny it. Don't sublimate or deny the fact that that is the truth, you know? Remember a friend of mine saying to me one time I said, I thought, I feels so inadequate, he goes, you are. I said, I was like, what? That wasn't the answer I anticipated. He said, yeah, the faster you just accept the fact that you are and everybody else is, the happier you'll be, you know? Because usually people who feel inadequate, all of us, it's because we're comparing

ourselves to an idealized image we have of who we're supposed to be all the time. You know, we need to surrender and let go of this idealized image. I'm not saying don't pursue excellence in your person. the life. Don't pursue, you know, progress. No, I totally want you to do that. But this idealized image you have of who you're supposed to be is a tyrant. It's just a tyrant. My sponsor in AIA, he's a fantastic guy, man. He says things to me all the time that blow my mind, right? Like the other day, so here's a self-knowledge of one man. I'm going to share you one of my favorites from the day. He said to me the other day, he's got a really thick southern drawl, right? And I'm from

Connecticut, so this is going to sound terrible. But he said, he said to me, goes, no, Ian, you need to give up the old idea that you know what just happened. And I thought to myself, I just stopped me in my boots, you know, it was like, what did you say? Because I was reading a situation, you know, trying to describe something. And he's like, I need to give up the idea that you know what just happened. And I thought to myself, he's right. I've been making a movie in my head about that interaction and what I thought just happened. And I have no idea what just happened, actually. Yeah. Right? Yeah. He says stuff to me like this all the time. I was speaking to him earlier today. And he actually was just reminding me that, you know, it's okay.

In fact, it's better than okay to acknowledge your broken self. That part of you that is frightened and scared, it feels like an imposter, which is what you were describing earlier, right? Feels fraudulent. Feels overwhelmed. Just acknowledge it. It's there. But you still have to go out to the big world out there and love it. that's your job.

Go out there and love it. Go out there and love everybody and everything you meet. You know, and do it with all your brokenness. You don't have to be perfect. Don't live up to some idealized image. It's a waste of your time. Well, Ian, thank you so much for being with us today. I'll tell you, we said it earlier.

One of the things that I value so much about you is your perspective, and you brought it today. So I know I'm better for it. I know our audience is better for it as well. Thanks so much for your time. Thank you, man. It's a pleasure. All right, big thanks to Ian,

for hanging out with us again. We always love when he stops by the studio. Nice job, Alex, and you've also got something exciting to tell us about. What is this escape survival mode? What are we talking about here? Yeah, I'm really excited about this. We ask people within our coaching program all the time when we're coaching them on leadership and in business. And really, what we're looking for is, are you working more in the business or on the business? Is your head buried in the weeds of what you're doing every single day? Or do you actually have the time, the margin, the space, and the ability to think ahead, six months, 12 months, and even 18 months into the future. If the leader doesn't do this, it does not get done. But too often, we come in contact with

leaders who are in survival mode. They're on a treadmill. They're on a hamster wheel. So that's why we created the escape survival mode online training. This is a free training. We're going to teach you the tools and tactics and principles that we've used here, but we've also coached them to business leaders around the country. So if you want to be a part of that free online training, text the word escape, one word, escape to 33444. We're going to get you out of survival mode, and we're going to get you thinking about the vision that you have for your business. Can't wait to see you there. All right. Thanks, Alex. One of the things I've always enjoyed about this program is when we can bring in some of our entree leaders from the home here, our house, Dave's house,

Entree leadership was developed here based on the way we did business, and it's always exciting to bring in some of our leaders. I told you about this at the top of the program, Daniel Tarty and Jen Severson recently stopped by, and Daniel is the Executive Vice President of Business and Leadership. He's a guy that came up through the ranks of Entree leadership. You've heard me refer to him many times as the grand poohbaugh of Entree leadership. He's been on this program many times. And then so has Jen Severson, who is our chief marketing officer here at Ramsey Solutions. I sat down with them to talk about an all-important topic leading at home and at work. This is huge because we are not one-dimensional people.

You're going to get some great stuff here. Here's the conversation with Daniel and Jen. We're taking on a very interesting topic. I think it's very relevant, you know, but we've not touched on this topic very much at all on this program in my five years. And I'm so glad we're talking about this. And this is that we've got leaders, Jen and Daniel, that are listening in here. We've got go-getters, high achievers, that are in all walks of life, all different roles,

but many of them are parents now or will be parents. And so this is ground zero, great topic. Let's start off with both of you from your unique perspectives. Jen's got the advantage on you and I because she's put one successfully in college. That's like a major milestone. You and I have a little bit younger kids. But I'd like for both of you just to share

maybe an opening comment on the role of parenting, how important it is and what maybe you have learned in your own unique journey to really do it to the best of your ability. Jen? Yes. Wow. Parenting. I mean, it's so difficult. So challenging.

It's so rewarding. It's all those things. And everybody, every parent would say it's the hardest thing and the most rewarding thing that you've ever taken on in any part of your life. And I believe that the thing that I've learned over time, is that you need to become comfortable with being uncomfortable and then leaning into that uncomfortable feeling, right? Your children need you in different ways at different times and it's okay that you don't have all the answers and you don't have it all figured out, but you need to lean into it and they need to feel you from a relationship standpoint leaning into that difficult, whatever that difficulty is

and working with them to figure it out or sometimes just walk with them. and sometimes just be there. Yeah. I want to follow that up. That's a really good thought. And let me ask you this. When you say be comfortable being uncomfortable, because you've got a wide array of things coming at you,

you don't expect it. Each kid's different. So you got to deal with that kid differently. Are you saying that what that allows you to do when you say to lean in is it's just that, hey, you're present. And the kid realizes, okay, you're involved. Because if we aren't comfortable being uncomfortable, do we run away and disengage?

Is that what happens? Right. It's so easy when we're faced with a really difficult, challenging situation in any aspect of our life to want to kind of put up a wall or run really hard the other direction. And if you do that with your children, that's where I think things really start to break down. Your kids are going to make mistakes. You're going to make mistakes as parents. Leaning into all those things, being open, honest about it. But being present, walking with them, not crouching away from those difficult situations or difficult, like they're going to make mistakes and you're going to think, wow, I never would have done that. Your kids aren't you? And then you're like, okay. In my case, I'm like, I would have done worse than that.

Or I would have felt worse than that. That says something about you and me. Well, they're still young, Daniel. There's time. Yeah, it's coming. Yeah. Daniel, your thoughts. Yeah, we have two wonderful little girls, nine and eight years old. I think I was under the illusion early on that somehow I was in control and that I could control their behavior, control what they were going to be like. And I think the older they get, the more I realize I can shape and influence and encourage. But at the end of the day, they are unique humans, that their style and their approach and who they are and how God made them, I can't control it. And so I think the more

I start letting go of control and start thinking about myself as a coach, a guide, a shaper, an influencer in their life. That helps me relax a little bit and not beat myself up when their behavior isn't on point or isn't the thing that we think that they should be doing. I've also learned that I can't parent them to be the parent that I needed. I'm different than they are. I needed different things. And it's great that we're talking about the eneagram today with Ian. They have their own enneagram number. You know, if you start figuring out out for your kids. What do we think their enneagram is? You certainly don't want to type them, right, and tell them your intigram number is this, especially for a five-year-old. Like,

what do you mean? But I think you start to see it. You see these patterns show up in the personality, and we are really working to figure out how do we parent them where they are? How do we match them based on their unique wiring for what they need? Because a boilerplate approach to parenting, I just, I think we're all so different that we need different things. We need some encouragement in areas. We need some tough love in some areas. But it doesn't apply. the same across all kids. We love our children equally, but we don't treat them exactly equally because they need different things and different seasons of life. And that's kind of part of what we're trying to learn right now. Yeah, that reminds me of something Coach Kay said to me years ago

about his coaching policy. And you mentioned the word coach and the word guide just a moment ago. And he had a policy of fair, but not equal. So we're going to treat these kids a little different. I think that's really, really good. Let's talk about that role of coach and guide. It's really interesting because if you think about the role of a guide or a coach, you know, there is clearly influenced from those two roles. But at some point, and Stacey and I are learning this now with a 13-year-old, he's got the big axioms. He knows what's right and wrong in our house. At some point, he's going to have to make the decision. I can remind, I can correct, but he's going to either do it and not suffer as much or he's going to have to suffer.

coach, guide, talk to me about that role and what you've seen work. Again, it's not so much just for the kid, but for us to be effective in guiding our kids. Well, I think you have to figure out ways to connect with your children, particularly as they get into those teen years. And it's not necessarily going to be on your terms. So the interests and things that you have may or may not align with all of your kids. and sometimes that means that you have to go, like one of my kids for a period of time, we'd play pool. I'm a horrible pool player, but I could get that particular child talking to me and connecting, I could connect with him when we were playing pool together, and he was okay with the fact that I was a horrible pool player, and so was I,

because I wanted the time. And so I think, especially as they get older, you have more ability to speak, into things and even have them invite you to speak into things when you're building that relationship. I've had older people, mentors in my life, tell me that by the time, to the point you're making, there are 12, 13, somewhere in there, you've kind of taught them everything. They know it, and then they're going to go make their mistakes or make the decision, and you hope they make all the right ones, but they're not going to. And so from that point on, it's what kind of relationship are you setting the foundation for so that when they become adults, you hope to have a great

relationship with them. And so somewhere in there, your focus has to shift to build a relationship. And I don't mean being their best friend. You're still their parent. But you have to figure out ways that you can connect with them so that you are able to have that influence in their life. Emily and I've really adopted this definition that I love about success for parenting. And I think it's Andy Stanley is the one that coined this.

but we want a parent in a way where our children will want to be around us even when they don't have to. And what that does for me is it gets me to look up outside of today's frustrations and think about the long game. When they're 18 years old and they're walking across the stage, what am I really going to regret and what am I really going to be proud of? And I'm probably not going to be that frustrated that they didn't eat their broccoli on Wednesday, July 25th, and go to bed on time. it's going to be those moments that you're talking about, I'm going to be proud that whatever the equivalent is of playing pool with them, being present in their life, having a relationship that as they have more autonomy

to get to choose to be at friends' houses or get to choose to be away and they're going to come home that summer for college. I want to come home. I want to be around mom and dad because you're shaping them to be adults and hopefully be your friends as they become adults

and they're adults with you in the later season of life. And I think that definition of success it just helps me to zoom out because otherwise I just really dial in on today's performance, all the little turf wars, all the little nitpicky stuff. And I can relax on some of that legalistic behavior-driven kind of thing when I go, I'm setting us up to have a relationship for the rest of my life. You know, and hopefully that's a long season that's way beyond when they turn 18. I love that.

Let's talk about preparation, preparing these kids. You know, we've got them for just a blink of time. all three of us are already experiencing that. Jen, it had to be, I mean, surreal to send your daughter off to college. I mean, we're just blown away. We have two in middle school. You know, it goes quick. What have you learned? What are you doing to prepare them for that time where they're not around as much? Even if they want to come back. And it's like, okay, now they've got to go and they have to fly. They're kicked out of the nest, if you will. we have and I would encourage everybody to develop some sort of rights of passage that work for you and your family and we've got a couple that work for us and our family with our kids when they're in their teen years that we've implemented with all three of our kids or plan to if they're not quite to the age yet that is a sociological piece that's kind of fallen away in modern day America for lots of us

is that idea of rights of passage. We don't all take part in a bar mitzvah or have a kinsenira if you're 16. And so what are those rights of passage that work for you and your children and play into your family? And how can you make those things a big deal? We have friends that have done things when their kids graduate, where others, they have mentors speak into different parts of their life. And it's like you need to figure out what works for your family. in your parenting style and then incorporate those rights of passage to help prepare them for new stages and new parts of life. I feel pretty strongly about that. Yes, I love it. We're planning right now. Our 8-year-old, Emma Grace, is she'll be 9 in November. Someone talked to us about rites of passage, and we adopted it, and we're planning her halftime trip at 9 years old. She's halfway to 18. And so me and Emily and her, and it's just us, we'll go for the weekend and do something that's fun and pour into her, call out things we see in her. Edify her, goof off, have some fancy dinners and things that it's like you're becoming an adult now. We're going to start spending the next nine years getting you prepared to be an adult and less of a little baby. And that's emotional just to even plan that kind of a trip because you're like, oh my gosh, we're halfway there.

And it felt like a blink with our youngest. Yeah, yeah. I just go back to talking about their identity more than their behavior. When I'm thinking about preparation, we're always tempted to correct the behavior and to try to address the actions that they're taking that are right or wrong. And that's part of our job as parents. We do hold the gavel. We do have to imply consequences for decisions to teach them. This is how life works. But Emily and I every day are trying to remind our girls what it means to be a child of God, what it means to be a tardy. We have these goofy little things we say every morning and I say, all right, what's your name?

And they say, I'm a tardy. What do tardies do? Well, they're not divas and they don't make excuses and they're respectful. They tell the truth and they make wise decisions even when it's hard. And those are the five things we just hit on that all the time. And so instead of always addressing behavior, we can come back to, what would a tardy do in this situation? What does a child of God do in this situation? What's the wise thing to do? And I feel like if they can move out of our house and know that they were unconditionally loved by their parents and by their creator and know that they have an identity that's special and what it means to be a tardy and they're taking that with them into life, that's about all we can ask for.

and everything else is bonus. Good grades, I hope they get them, you know, but I can't control that. But I can significantly influence what they believe about themselves and their identity. And that's where we really try to camp. Okay, a final question, kind of an offshoot of this preparation topic, is failure. And I'm making this the final question because I think this is a dual question for both of you. So I want you to answer this in the context of a leader at work and is a parent. of kids. It's really hard speaking for myself to watch my kids fail. And I have caught myself

at different times in their journeys, stopping the failure from happening. And I don't do that anymore. And there's something about a leader who will allow people to fail in order for them to learn and grow. And it's that idea of taking away that safety net below the high wire. So I just want you all to speak to that. I just throw that out there from a leadership context and a parenting context. So hard. Of letting people fail. Well, you can prepare the path for the child or you can prepare the child for the path. If I'm going to run around and prepare the path and be a helicopter dad and make sure that every little thing that could hurt them or cause them pain, you know, I'm going to call the coach and say, you better put them in or I'm going to call their teacher and say, you better give them an A anyway. If I'm always going out in front of them and insulating them from how life really works, as much as I want that for their comfort in the moment, as much as I hate when their puppy dog face starts to cry and they really feel real pain in their heart as small as it is for us as adults, you just see it in their face and you want to take it away from them.

And I don't know. I don't get it right all the time. I feel like more often than not, I'm the softy and I go in and I rescue. And then Emily's like, hey, you're enabling them. We need to let them. And I think if you can have a great relationship with your spouse, hopefully doing this together, if that's not the case for everybody. But I lean on Emily a lot. And I go, I need you to balance out the fact that I'm soft because I know they need to learn some tough love. But if you're thinking about how do we set them up to kind of start experiencing how life actually works, that's real love.

You're not loving them well to insulate them. And then they get this massive whiplash when you launch them out of the nest. And they go, the real world is completely different than what you're not. what I experienced at home, they expect me to work. They expect me to show up on time. They expect me to follow through and tell the truth. And mom and dad never expected that. Our kids actually crave boundaries.

They crave discipline. They crave us as parents to lead and they respect us. And in the moment, they whine and they fuss. But at the end of the day, when they respect us, that makes them feel safe. And when they feel safe, they can grow and their hearts can come alive in the way that God created them. And so, you know, I laugh though all the time.

We mess it up a lot. And I think you've got to laugh about it with your spouse. After the moment, you go, we totally screw that one up, you know. And we even tell our kids, hey, we screwed this one up. We didn't get it right. Last thing we want them thinking is that we think we're perfect. So we invite them into that messiness. But I don't know.

I want to Jen's answer. I'm going to take notes because she's got this one mastered. That's great, Daniel. No, I don't have it mastered. But we talk a lot at work about non-fatal failure. And how can you lead in such a way that you give your, team and the people around you, the ability to make some decisions, you know, you've guided them already, and at some point you've got to let go and make sure that you're not letting go so much

that they make a fatal failure. That's the boundaries part you're talking about, Daniel. And to me, that applies perfectly to parenting. And I'm not saying we always get it right, right? But the non-fatal failure, sometimes they have to stub their toe and they have to feel the pain from it. if they don't burn their hand on the stove, they don't know the stove is dangerous. And so, sometimes they have to learn things and you have to look at it with the long view on mind and say, you know what, they're not going to remember this or I'm not going to remember this or this is not going to have an impact on them on their life when they're 25 or 30 or 35. And so it's okay that there's this little stumbling block and they almost failed this class.

And they had to figure out how to get the grade back up. Yeah. Because I didn't go in and dive in with the teacher. I made them have to figure it out. One of the things I learned was that I could make a point in my mind crystal clear over and over and over. And it never registered until what I said would happen actually did happen. And then all of a sudden it was like, oh, you know. And so they'll listen and learn more from failure many times more than they'll listen and learn from us, our voice.

Oh, yeah. When I was 18, my dad didn't know hardly anything. And by the time I was 25, I was like, he's brilliant. Mark Twain said something like that. It's really true. Yeah. In fact, even now, you know, at 45, I realize how wise my dad is, you know. And so it's really good stuff. Jen, Daniel, thank you. This is really good stuff. Thanks for leading well. And thanks for sharing some of your personal parenting stories that were better for it. Thank you. Thank you. All right, big thanks to Jen and Daniel for that conversation. Hey, let's talk about Belay. We love the folks at Belay.

Brian and Shannon have both been on this program. They are entree leaders. They've come through our program. They are a part of our family. And they're doing some amazing work. Summer is about to come to an end. It's hard to believe, but it's true. And so when we look at creating boundaries and routines,

this is always going to be relevant, but certainly a hot topic as our schedules and routines change. So this resource from Belay, work life balance. How do you do it? Well, this is something that will help you find yourself and deal with the blurred lines between work life and personal life. It's going to give you some very practical tips for finding the balance between work and life and help you create the boundaries that you need as you move into the last season of the year. Now, this resource will cover the topics of it's okay to say no, creating a routine, committing to communicate, and harnessing technology.

Download the resource by clicking the link in this episode show notes and take control of your day. Hey, we've been asking you for several episodes now to rate and review these episodes. We hope you got so much out of this episode. And if you did, please give us a five-star review and tell your friends to subscribe. Now, if you want a chance to win a $25 Amazon gift card, review this episode by clicking the link in the show notes. and be sure to follow us on social media at Entree Leadership. Well, that's going to do it for this episode. So on behalf of Alex Judd and the entire Entree Leadership team, thank you for listening.

We'll talk with you again very soon. Hey, if you enjoy this podcast, you should check out our other great podcast from the Ramsey Network, like Business Boutique. Hey, I'm Christy Wright, and I help women all over the country take their ideas and passions and hobbies and turn them into profitable businesses. If you have an idea in your head or a dream in your heart and you've ever wondered if you could make money doing it, I'm here to help. Join us on the Business Boutique podcast where we are equipping women to make money doing what they love. To hear full episodes, just search Business Boutique, wherever you listen to podcast or go to businessboutique.com.