EntreLeadership - #338: How to Play an Infinite Game with Simon Sinek

Episode Date: September 2, 2019

Forget winning or losing. Bestselling author and leadership expert Simon Sinek says the most important thing is to determine what kind of game you’re playing. For example, baseball is a finite game���a game with known players, fixed rules and an agreed-upon objective. Business, on the other hand, is an infinite game: The rules are changeable, there is no set finish line, and no one wins. And if that isn’t complicated enough, Simon warns that if you approach business with a finite mind-set, the consequences are disastrous. Tune in to learn the five things you need to have in order to prevent disaster and successfully navigate the infinite game of business.   entreleadership.com/podcast The Infinite Game by Simon Sinek Simon Sinek's website Ken Coleman's website Write a note to Ken The Ken Coleman Show Review this episode for a chance to win a $25 Amazon gift card   Want expert help with your business question? Call 844-944-1070 and leave a message or send an email to [e-mail]. You could be featured on a future podcast episode! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

An infinite-minded player embraces uncertainty, likes surprises because they understand that their business can be transformed and they view all of that as an opportunity rather than something to be feared. Helping business leaders grow themselves, their team, and their profits. This is Entree Leadership. Now, here's your host, Ken Coleman. Coming to you from the Music City, this is the broadcast of leaders, by leaders, four leaders. Thank you so much for joining the conversation. Here's what we got coming up for you. Simon Seneca.

Can you ever get enough of that guy? The answer is an emphatic. No, you can't. And so that's why we're bringing you another conversation this time on his newest book. This is going to be so rich. I'm telling you, I enjoyed this thoroughly. So I can't wait for you to get into that conversation. And then you got to stick around because we have a huge, I mean huge, exciting, special announcement about this.

program. So don't move. We'll get you that information right after Simon. So I don't know if I can set him up any better. He came onto the scene with Start with Why. His latest book is The Infinite Game and this may be just as consequential as anything he's ever written. It really is a game changer because he breaks down the game. You're in the game whether you think you're in the game or not. He's going to tell you what game you should be playing and why you need to be playing it that way. Here is the incomparable Simon, Well, Simon, really excited about this book because I know that we actually interviewed you for this program a couple years ago. And this was an idea that, as I said, what are you thinking about next?

And you gave us an overview of this idea. Now, here we go. The book is here. And I'm excited to dive into this. And so we have to kind of start with, I want to know what the finite game is. I know the book is the infinite game. But you actually write about this. but I think it's important for these business leaders to really understand, before we get into what the infinite game is,

what is the game, that finite game that seems maybe most people are playing? So in 1986, a theologian named James Karses wrote this little book called Finite and Infinite Games, in which he defined these two kinds of games. If you had at least one competitor, a game exists. Finite games and infinite games. There's two kinds of games, finite games and infinite games. A finite game is defined as known players, fixed rules, and an agreed-upon objective, like baseball, right? We know who the other players are.

They wear uniforms. We all agree to play by the same rules. And there's an objective, which is to win. And at the end, there'll be a winner and they'll be a loser. And there's always a beginning, a middle, and end in a finite game. Infinite games are defined as known and unknown players. You don't always know who the new players are, and new players can join any time. The rules are changeable.

you can play however you want, and the objective is to perpetuate the game. There's no finish line, right? And what I've learned is when we play in an infinite game with a finite mindset, there's a few very consistent things that happen, consistent and predictable,

which is decline of trust, decline of cooperation, and decline of innovation. And if you think about it, business is an infinite game. We don't necessarily know who all the competitors are and new competitors can join any time.

Every company can play the game of business, however they want. And there is no agreed upon metric and there is no agreed upon time frame. It just keeps going and going and going. The game never ends. Just the players come and go.

You know, you got a business and a new company shows up. In other words, it obeys all of the criteria of an infinite game. But if you listen to most leaders and business owners, they talk about being number one, being the best,

and beating their competition. Based on what? And that's the problem, which is we are playing in an infinite game in the infinite game of business with a finite mindset. And when we do that, we destroy trust, we destroy cooperation, we destroy the innovation that are necessary for us to survive and thrive for a very long time. Give me an example of somebody who was playing with the finite rules in this infinite game,

and they just got completely blindsided. Well, we see it all the time, and you see it in industries and companies attempting to protect their business model as opposed to trying to advance something bigger than themselves. So, for example, why is it that Amazon invented itself and the e-reader and not publishing? It's because the publishers were too busy protecting their business model of selling books and not defining themselves as try to spread knowledge, and they basically missed the internet. And now they're playing defense. Now they're attempting to win by playing defense.

Why is it that a computer company invented iTunes and not the music industry? They didn't invent Spotify either. It's because they were too busy protecting their business model of selling CDs to Tower Records. as in HMV instead of recognizing that we've moved from an album culture to a song culture and there's new technology and they never adapted. Now they're playing defense. Why is it that Netflix was not invented by the television and movie industry? They're too busy protecting their business models. One of my favorite examples is actually Blockbuster, where it's the only significant national rental chain, right? It's the 800-pound gorilla. And there's this new

tiny little company called Netflix that had a new business model where they charge you a subscription. And you remember, Netflix used to send us DVDs in the mail. Yes. You could keep them as long as you wanted. And we knew streaming was coming down the pike, but the technology wasn't quite there yet, but Netflix was preparing for it. And the CEO of Blockbuster went to the board

and said, I think we need to explore subscription models, and the board refused to let him because they made 12% of their revenues from late fees. Now Blockbuster doesn't exist, and Netflix is reinventing television. So playing with a finite mindset is all about trying to control variables. Players with a finite mindset like to exert control. They do not like surprises.

They do not like uncertainty because surprises and uncertainty can make the plan go awry. And this is why shorter and shorter timeframes become important in the finite game. We like to play by the quarter or the year because we can exert a high degree of control over a quarter, right? Five years and ten years, not so much. An infinite-minded player embraces uncertainty, likes a lot of. surprises because they understand that their business can be transformed by change and new technology and cultural adaptation. And they view all of that as an opportunity rather than something to be feared. That's a key point you make about those playing the infinite game. They embrace uncertainty,

which is the future. So to stay out there. And this makes me think of your assertion that there's really only one true competitor yourself. And you can speak to this so well because you've actually spoken, you have knowledge of Microsoft and Apple that most people don't have. I love this example that really brings this home. How are they different? So a bunch of years ago, I spoke at an education summit for Microsoft, and I also spoke at an education summit for Apple a few months later. And at the Microsoft event, the vast majority of the presenters spent the vast majority of their time talking about how to beat Apple. At the Apple, at the Apple, Apple Summit, 100% of the executives, 100% of the presenters spent 100% of their presentations

talking about how to help teachers teach and how to help students learn. One was obsessed with where they were going. One was obsessed with the cause greater than themselves. The other was obsessed with beating their competition. Guess which one was struggling with trust cooperation and innovation? Of course. So at the end of my talk at Microsoft, they gave me a gift. They gave me the new Zoom when it was a thing.

This was Microsoft's response to the iPod, right? And this little piece of technology was absolutely spectacular. It was beautifully designed. The user interface was intuitive. It was just fantastic. So at the end of my Apple talk, I was sharing a taxi with a senior Apple executive, employee number 54 to be exact. And I couldn't help myself. I just had to stir the pot.

So I turned to me and I said, you know, Microsoft gave me their new Zoom. And it is so much better than your iPod touch. He looked at me and he said, I have no doubt. And the conversation was over. Because a player playing with an infinite mindset understands sometimes you have the better product and sometimes your competitor has the better product. And the goal is not to outdo them. The goal is not to beat them. The only true competitor in the infinite game is yourself.

How do we make our products better than they were last year? How do we make our culture stronger than it was last year? How do we make our leaders better than they were last year? It's really a game of constant improvement. That's what the infinite game is. The other players are there for good reason, but the goal is not to beat them because there's no such thing as winning

in a game that has no finish line. There's no such thing as winning in a game where we haven't agreed on the rules and we haven't agreed on the timeframes. We haven't even agreed on the metrics. So I found that absolutely fascinating. And this was Microsoft under Steve Balmer, and the company struggled.

You know, the company couldn't retain good talent. people were fleeing, the company struggled to innovate. It wasn't what it used to be prior to that. So it was fascinating to sort of have this glimpse. I have, you know, clarity of 2020 clarity now. I didn't know about finite and infinite games back then. It was so obvious that one was playing with an infinite mindset and one was playing with a finite mindset. So I want to stay right here and ask a follow-up based on what you said about bomber and they couldn't retain talent. Is it because they were competing solely? against Apple, and it's like, if you can't beat them, you just want to give up and go play a

different game. It's not about that so much, because you know, you can sometimes rally people and whip them into a frenzy and, you know, competitive nature. It's just not sustainable. The problem was that when you play with a finite mindset, all of the pressures you put on your people are to hit and beat their numbers every quarter every year. It's overwhelming pressure. And innovation goes the wayside because innovation requires experimentation and experimentation inherently requires that you try and fail and try and fail and try and fail. And companies tend to lack patience when they play with a finite mindset. None of us want to go to work and have our entire existence,

not only the fear that we might lose our jobs, if we hit an arbitrary number and an arbitrary date. And there's no consideration as to how we get those numbers. You can have a toxic leader, you know, toxic genius, whose performance is fantastic and hits all their numbers, but they destroy the performance of everybody else along the way. And yet we keep promoting and bonusing that person. And yet you can have a gifted natural leader who does very, very good, consistent work,

but they just happen to miss the arbitrary number and the arbitrary date. And so we keep hiring and firing the wrong people and promoting the wrong people in our organizations. But I stress, you know, so much of the discontent that we face in our jobs today, where so few of us feel inspired to go to work and feel safe when we're there and fulfilled at the end of the day, which really is the goal, that we feel inspired, safe, and fulfilled every single day of our lives. And it's simply because of an excessive amount of finite-mindedness amongst leaders today. So let's talk about some of the great content here in the book that will help leaders get that infinite mindset. And then hopefully allow that to trickle down and create a culture where the whole company is understanding the true game.

One of these is a just cause. Here at Ramsey's Solutions, certainly Dave has made it very clear over and over and over that we are crusaders for hope. And so we have that cause mindset here, and I think it's really fantastic. I want you to talk about a just cause and how important it is to this infinite game. So there are five practices that somebody who wants to play in the infinite game has to obey. And the analogy I use, it's a little bit like getting into shape. You know, where somebody says, what do I have to do to get into shape? Well, you have to exercise, you have to sleep well, you have to eat well,

and you have to have good, close, loving relationships. And if you do a couple of those things, things will be better, but you really want to do all of those things, right? And it's not like you start something, you hit your weight goal and then you stop exercising. You know, you can have finite goals, but this is a lifestyle that you have to practice all of these things. And the infinite game is exactly the same. These are five practices. It becomes a lifestyle. And as you said, the first one is to have a just cause.

To have an idealized sense of the future, of where you're going, of the kind of world you want to live in, that you commit your resources and your organization to help advance. In other words, you give people the opportunity to be a part of something bigger than themselves, that their energy and their effort and their blood, sweat, and tears are worth more than the money you make or the products you sell. It's about contributing to something bigger than yourselves, and it's a very basic human need to feel like we belong. So you have to give your people a just cause. And I love that everyone who works for Dave shows up to spread hope, to spread hope. It's just such a wonderful thing.

You know, it's much better than coming to hit quarterly goals in a media company. You can do those things. That's fine. That's how you go about advancing your just calls, but that's not the reason you get out of bed in the morning. I want to ask just a quick follow-up here because we have so many different types of leaders that are listening in in different business situations. Curious what your advice would be in this context to somebody who's coming in as a new leader. Maybe they're at the top of the organization or they're one of the top leaders. there's been an unhealthy culture, there's not been this infinite game mindset, and there's really

no identifiable just cause across the company. What would your advice be to them to institute that and help bring that clear just cause about? So this is such an interesting question. There's so much pressure we put on entrepreneurs and young people to have a vision. What's your vision? At the end of the day, it's a very, very small percentage of our population that I would describe as visionary. Not everybody is Steve Jobs, you know. Though we don't have to all have a vision, we do have to all find a vision. You don't have to come up with it yourself, but if you can find another one that really gives you goosebumps and resonates with you and you have a very sort of a deep emotional connection to it, then take that one, make it your own. There's no reason why people

who hear Dave's vision can't take it and make it their own and can commit their product, their company to help advance that. Bob Chapman, who I've written about, has a company called Barry Waymiller in the Midwest. And if you ask Bob what his company does, it's a manufacturing company, but he doesn't tell you that. He says, we build great people to do extraordinary things. And if you ask him, well, how do you measure that? He says, we measure success by how we touch the lives of our people. And that's not unique to him. He just happens to do it through a manufacturing company. And it's built into the culture more than the product. And anyone who finds that compelling, they can take that vision and make it their own. So we do have to find a vision.

but I don't think we necessarily have to invent one. If that were the case, I think, you know, eight billion visions probably isn't a good thing in the world. Right. You know, a few visions that a lot of us commit ourselves to. And by the way, you can have multiple visions. You can have multiple just causes. We only have one why, because our why comes from the past.

It's who we are. But our just cause, you can have one for your church. You can have one for your family. You can have one for your business. And it's because it's the future. It tweaks along the way. You know, your why is like the foundation of your house. It's fixed and it's not going anywhere

and it gives shape to whatever your life is going to look like. Your just cause is the ultimate vision of what your house is going to look like. But as long as you're building, your tastes will change. You're going to tweak the windows. It's going to have a basic shape. It's not going to be dramatically a different house. It's not a departure from where you started. But you're going to make changes along the way.

And that's okay because tastes change. The world changes. You find better ways. You think you're going to do it one way and you find a better way. and you do that better way. And that's much more of how a just cause takes shape. Okay, so number one, adjust cause. Number two, trusting teams.

Yeah, this one seems so obvious, you know. We know we're on a trusting team when we can raise our hands and say, I made a mistake, or you promoted me to a position where I don't feel like I know what I'm doing. Or I'm having trouble at home and it's affecting my work. Or I'm scared. or I need help, without any fear of humiliation or retribution. In fact, we say these things with absolute confidence that those around us, our bosses, our colleagues will rush to support us. I had, you know, I stayed at the four seasons in Las Vegas. I was there on a business trip,

and they happened to have a coffee bar in the lobby there. And so one afternoon, I went and bought myself a cup of coffee, and the barista working that day was a kid named Noah. And Noah was funny and engaging and I spent far too long there. I'm buying a cup of coffee because I just so enjoyed Noah's company. And as is my nature, I asked Noah, you know, do you like your job? And without skipping a beat, Noah said, I love my job. Now, in my line of work, that's significant because like is rational and love is emotional. Like is, you know, I like my job. I like the people I work with. I like the challenge. I get paid well. I like my job. Love is a higher order connection. It's like, you know, do you love your wife? Yeah, I like her a lot.

It's a different standard. Noah said, I love my job. Immediately, I followed up and said, tell me specifically what the Four Seasons is doing that you would say to me, you love your job. And he said that throughout the day, leaders will, his managers will walk past him and ask him if there's anything he needs

to do his job better. There's anything they can do to help. Not just his manager, any manager. And then he said, I also work for a different hotel. I have a second job. And there are the managers walk past us and catch us when we do things wrong. They drive us to make the numbers.

There, I'd like to keep. keep my head below their radar and just get through the day. Only at the four seasons, he said, do I feel I can be myself? Noah works on a trusting team. And if you think about it, the experience that I will have, whether I meet him at the four seasons or the other hotel, will be profoundly different, not because of him, but because of the leadership environment that he's been asked to work. And so often when we have performance issues, the first thing we do is blame our people.

What's wrong with my people? and I get questions like this all the time how do I get the most out of my people? People are not a towel that you ring them tight to get the most out of them. The correct question is how do I create an environment in which my people can work at their natural best? And trust is king

because when we feel trust on the team we will ask for help. We will say we don't know the job we're doing and we need more training. We will say we're scared. We will admit when we make mistakes so somebody can help us fix them. Because if we don't have trusting teams

in our companies, what we do have is a group of people who are showing up to work every single day lying, hiding and faking. They're hiding their mistakes, they're not admitting that they don't know what they're doing, and they're never going to ask for help. Well, how long is that going to last?

And cracks start to show up, and then eventually those cracks get bigger and eventually things break. And again, it's not the people's fault. It's because we created an environment, leaders created an environment where they couldn't be honest for fear of losing their jobs,

or getting in trouble, or finding themselves on some short list for the next round of layoffs. So trusting teams are absolutely essential in the infinite game because sometimes we can't be there just fix every problem and we need our people to be self-sufficient. That's huge. Folks, we've got to go back to what Simon said earlier.

Noah is a great illustration there of trust leading to cooperation and then innovation at the other hotel, Simon. He wants to go below the radar. He doesn't even want to be noticed. Therefore, there can't be cooperation. If there's not cooperation, how in the world can you innovate if you don't know what works on the front line? And Noah is the front line.

He's the guy dealing with you and making you feel wonderful. He's probably one of the lowest paid employees in the entire company. Exactly. He's a barista at the Four Seasons, right? And I am going around on interviews like yours talking about how amazing the Four Seasons is

because of one of the lowest paid employees in the company because he just loves coming to work and feels valued and valuable where I would never talk about the other company and yet I'm sure there's very good people who work there and it's simply because of the leadership environment that allowed Noah to be himself and it allowed Noah to treat me as a human being

as opposed to a number. Yeah, I'm going to tell you some. When I go to Vegas, I want to try to look that kid up. Wouldn't that be fantastic? So if you're listening to this, listen, folks, if you're listening to this and you're going to Vegas for a business trip, go to the four seasons and say,

I heard about you and make this kid feel like a million dollars. Because I think that's really. He's there. I love that. Okay, moving on. Number three, a worthy rival. Simon, I've got the pleasure to get to know you through professional interviews and just a little bit of time in a green room from here to there. Did you pick the word worthy very intentionally here? Because it seems to me, it jumped out to me, or maybe I'm overthinking it, and that's okay if I am. But there's a difference between a rival and then a worthy rival. As a sports fan, I see it that way. Is that true? Yes, I picked it very intentionally. I thought so. There are many other players in the game. Not all of them are worthy of comparison. And at the end of the day, a competitor is someone we want to beat.

When we view the other players in the game as competitors, we become too obsessed with arbitrary scores, which by the way we pick. Oh, we're ahead of them in market share. Yeah, but your profitability is in the toilet, you know? So when we view them as competitors and we become so obsessed with beating them, sometimes it can actually lead to ethical lapses as well because we're so obsessed with beating them and beating the numbers. Rather to view the other players in the game as rivals

and the worthy rivals are the ones who reveal to us our weaknesses. So there's another guy who does what I do in this industry. He writes books. He gives talks. He's very good at what he does, and he's very well respected. I happen to hate him. He's always been very nice to me when I've met him professionally. I just have this irrational hatred of him.

And as a result, I'm really, really competitive with him, right? So I will regularly go online and look at my book rankings and immediately check his. If I'm ahead, I'm smug. And if he's ahead, I'm sort of irked by it, you know, annoyed by him. So we were invited to speak at the same conference where we would be interviewed at the same time on stage together. And the interviewer thought it would be a fun idea if we introduced each other. And so I went first and I turned to him and I said, you make me really insecure. All of your strengths are all of my weaknesses.

and when your name comes up, I get really uncomfortable. And he turned to me and he said, funny, I feel the same about you. The reason I was so competitive with him was not because he did anything to me. The reason I was so competitive with him is because his strengths revealed to me my weaknesses, and it was easier to take that insecure energy

and channel it against him than it was to take a hard look at myself. And that cathartic experience was so amazing. First of all, I've stopped checking book rankings anymore. It turns out people can buy more than one book. and actually he and I become good friends and collaborators now. And so the worthy rival is another player in the game,

whether it's an individual or a company, and you can have multiple worthy rivals. You get to pick your own worthy rivals whose strengths reveal to us our own weaknesses so that we may see the places that we need to improve. Because as I said before, the infinite game is ostensibly. It's basically a game of constant improvement,

but sometimes we don't know where we're weak. And there may be another organization or individual out there who's a better leader, more innovative. they may be better at marketing, better at sales, and instead of hating them and trying to beat them, learn from them, respect them. We don't have to like them, we don't have to agree with them,

but we do have to respect them, and we do have to learn from them, because the game is to be better players ourselves. And if you go back to that Apple, Microsoft example, you know, Microsoft was so preoccupied with beating Apple and looking for the places where they're better than Apple, that they fail to recognize just how genius Apple is. And while they were busy competing on MP3 players

and trying to beat the iPod, Apple in the same time period invented the iPhone, rendering both the iPod and the Zoom completely irrelevant. They were on to the next. They weren't thinking about Microsoft. They were thinking about

how to advance their just cause. And so this idea of worthy rival is, and by the way, I hate when leaders talk about creating internal competition because it's good for the numbers. And it may be in the short term, but it also destroys your culture. Having internal competitors is dangerous,

but having internal rivals is totally fine. We've all had the experience where someone that we worked with got promoted and we got angry. Think about that. We couldn't take joy at someone else's success. That person probably reveals something inside us that we don't want to take a hard look at. We can absolutely have worthy rivals on our own team. People that we wish we were more like because they're such good leaders or command such unbelievable respect or because they're so good at something or the other. The question is, how can we learn from them?

Sometimes even going up to them and say, you are so good at this, teach me. Yeah. And the same definitely goes at a corporate level, at a company level. Who are the other players in the game that can make you a better company because their strength reveal to you your weaknesses? That's a powerful shift right there because that really does speak to almost the soul, the soul of the individual in your case and the soul of the company. That's really, really good, folks. I think this is a rewind, go back and listen to the difference there that Simon shares between competitor versus a rival. Really, really good.

Okay, keeping moving here. Number four, a capacity for existential flexibility. All right, big words. I love the 50-cent words. You say as well as anybody. Break that down. So I'll give you the best example. So Steve Jobs had a just cause.

Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak, the founders of Apple, had a just cause. It was to empower individuals to stand up to Big Brother. They loved that idea. They were revolutionaries at heart. And they saw the personal computer as an amazing and perfect tool for individuals to stand up to Big Brother. And Steve Wozniak actually imagined a time where an individual could compete against a corporation. Imagine that. And Apple had a great success with the Apple I and the Apple two. They were pioneers. They were one of the frontrunners of pioneering the personal computer.

And they're already a big company. Steve Jobs is already a famous CEO. And in December of 1979, Jobs and a few of his senior executives take a tour of Xerox Park, which was Xerox's R&D division. And Xerox shows them a new invention called the graphic user interface that allows people to use a computer by clicking on a mouse to move icons and folders on a desktop instead of learning a whole computer language. And Jobs, obsessed with how to empower individuals to stand up to Big Brother, sees this technology as an entire leapfrog forward to whatever he's working on as the next product.

And as they leave Xerox, he says to his executives, we have to invest in this graphic user interface thing. And one of the executives, the voice of reason, I guess, says, Steve, we can't. We've already invested millions of dollars in countless man hours in a completely different strategic direction. If we change course now, not only will we walk away from those investments, but we'll blow up our own company. To which jobs actually said, better we should blow it up than someone else. That's great. That decision led to the Macintosh.

Wow. A computer platform so profound that it completely changed how we use computers today. And the entire software of Windows is basically designed to act like a Macintosh. that's existential flexibility. It's the willingness to make a profound shift in strategy, 180 degrees if necessary, because you discover a better way to advance the cause. Now, this is not to be mistaken

for what a lot of entrepreneurs suffer from, which is shiny object syndrome, which is every time they read a book of go hear a speech, they think this is the thing we have to do. And that just becomes a pinball for your poor people, trying to keep up with all your new crazy ideas. This is something that you will do maybe once, twice at the most in your entire career, possibly never. But we have the responsibility to prepare

our organizations for existential flexibility. In other words, when we need to make that change, we're able to make that massive pivot. And that requires a crystal clear just cause, because there's a reason why we choose to completely upend our business. It's because we we found a better way to advance the just cause. That's what makes it not arbitrary. And we better have trusting teams, because you're absolutely going to put your company through short-term hell. and if the just cause is clear and the teams trust each other, they're going to look at you and say, yep, we'll do it.

It's going to suck, but it's the right thing to do and we're up for it. Whereas if we don't have those trusting teams, people are going to abandon ship. They're going to think you've lost your mind and they're going to leave. Or they're going to hunker down and not give their role because they're afraid of losing their jobs

in this time of upheaval. So when I say prepare your company for existential flexibility, you may never have to do it. But if you have to, can you? And if you don't, it's going to mean the death of your own company at some point. Because if you're not willing to blow up your own company, the market will blow it up for you. That's exactly right.

And you set yourself up so well, which leads to 0.5, the courage to lead, the way you just set that up. I mean, when you've prepared your team, as you say, then that's where the leader draws the courage. I think for the doubting leader assignment, it's like, how do these leaders that I read about or I watch movies about the order? How did they have that courage? And I think you just broke it down for us. these other four things were in place. And that's when it gives the leader, the man or woman,

the ability to tow the line and step forward, yes? Courage is external. You know, I think very few people are able to dig down deep and find the courage, you know? That's right. That's right. A world famous trapeze artist

would never try a brand new death-defying act for the first time without a net. You know, the courage that they got came from the net, not from anything else. And so I think our courage comes from our teams. you know, all leaders doubt themselves. All leaders fear they're making the wrong decisions. All leaders hesitate. All leaders think they can't do it. There's loneliness. And all leaders at some point

will say, I need to give up. I can't do this anymore. And the reason we continue is because somebody in our lives says, I got you. I got you back. You need to do this. I'm with you. I'm by your side. And that's what gives us the courage to keep going. And at the end of the day, being a player in the infinite game is way more difficult than being a finite player. Why would you want to advance a just cause that's so big? It's so much easier to just try and hit the quarterly annual number. It's actually easier to organize your company for the short term. To build trusting teams, that's the hard work of leadership. It's so much easier to just hire and fire people willy-nilly. Your performance is down, just fire you. Why would I spend the time coaching

you to make you a better person? I'm just going to find somebody who can do the job better than you. It's just easier. It's just easier. It's true. It's easier. Absolutely is. And worthy rival, competition is so much more fun. Why would I want to take a hard look at myself and admit my weaknesses? I'd rather just have a full sense of bravado because I keep beating the competition. So much better. These things are hard.

These things are hard. And so it requires a lot of people and it requires deep relationships and it requires courage to do these things. Not to mention all the pressures on us are almost exclusively to play the finite game. We're judged by how much money we make. if you work for a public company, Wall Street, it's a big open secret. Every public company executive knows that Wall Street puts pressure on them to make decisions that are bad for their company,

and puts pressure on them to avoid making decisions that are good for their company. It's not like it's a revelation to say these things, and yet they do them anyway. Well, how come? It's because the pressure's overwhelming. And I don't understand the obsession with growth. And everybody's obsessed with growth. Growth for what purpose? there's really only one thing on the planet that grows just for the sake of growth, and that's cancer. You know, growth is this strange obsession. What's the purpose of growth? Well, you know, we're, I love this one. This is my favorite one. We're a hypergrowth company. We're a gazelle.

Well, what's the value of that? Is that good? Who said that growing fast was good? You know, that's like saying, we're a retail operation and we're a high growth company and, you know, we're going to open 200 stores this year. You know, and your opening stores so quickly, you're hiring the wrong people and you're not spending time to train them. Well, how long is that going to last? You know, people are going to go there and walk out. Why not adjust those growth plans down to four stores a year, hire the right people, train them properly, and you'll have four incredibly profitable stores, and then you can open four more the next year, or five more, ten more. But we pick these arbitrary numbers because we want to be hypergrowth. I don't understand it. That doesn't mean you're building a good company. And so it takes courage, unbelievable courage, to stand up to this pressure that I will judge myself

based on my contribution to the just cause, to how my team feels when they come to work, you know, the company is sustainable over the long term, that if I were to get by a school bust, that my people will continue to build a company without me. This is not just force of personality. This is a better way to judge the quality of a company, not based on whether somebody else thinks you're healthy because you have fast growth. So it takes courage to stand up to all this pressure, of course. The way you end the book, to me, was so delightful. just personally love the message, connects with what I get to do here

as a part of Ramsey Solutions. And I think it's a wonderful gift at the end of this. This is just a must read for any leader. And I think, Simon, we're past flattery, and I say this with the deepest of sincerity, you were a tremendous communicator, and you take the complex and you simplify

so that leaders can understand it. But I think the true gift of Simon Seneca is your depth, because they're soul behind your thinking. And I think this last chapter, where you kind of shift it here, you know, and you say, okay, let's talk about the infinite life because it's much bigger. You're not a one-dimensional person. You're more than a business lady or a businessman. I think it's a wonderful challenge. And so if we choose to live our lives with a finite mindset, it means we make our

primary purpose to get richer or promoted faster than others. To live our lives with an infinite mindset means that we are driven to advance a cause bigger than ourselves. And you, you're, you go on. But I think that's just a wonderful challenge. I want you to just teach us, like, how do we take the pages of this book, but also understand, this is bigger than the infinite game in business. This is really about the infinite game in life in the days that we've been allotted. It's true. You know, there's this wonderful poem called The Dash, which is, you know, ostensibly the message is you show up to someone's funeral and they have two dates on their, on their tombstone, the day they were born, and the day they died. But the thing that matters is, you know,

most as the dash. It's like, what do you do with the time in between? And at the end of the day, you know, we don't get to choose the rules of the game. Basketball is a finite game. You don't get to choose. And you don't get to play by the rules of football when you play basketball. Those are the rules. You don't get to choose. You know, and the game of business, you know, is an infinite game. And you don't get to choose that it's not. But you do get to choose if you want to be a player in those games or not. In life, it's different. We don't get to choose the rules of the game. It's an infinite game, and we don't even get to choose if we're players are not. You know, when you're born, you're a player. That's it. You're in. You're in the game. The only choice we get is whether

we want to play with an infant mindset or a finite mindset. And though our lives are finite, life is infinite. Life continues with us or without us. And so that means we get a choice. We get to choose how we play the game. Do you want to play with a finite mindset? Do you want to be number one? Do you want to be the best? Do you want to make more money than everybody else? Advance up the totem pole higher than everybody else. And when you die, you take none of it with you. Or do you want to live your life with an infinite mindset, where you commit your life to see those around you rise, to see that the impact that you have on the world around you will literally outlive your own life? That long after you've moved on, there are amazing people doing amazing things. And we go up to

them and say, how did you become who you are today? And they say, your name. It's much like being a parent. You know, the greatest gift we can give to the world is creating children who go on to do great things. Had the opportunity to sit next to Richard Branson at a dinner once. I turned to him and I said, how should we judge you when you're gone?

I said, what have you done at Virgin that you want to be remembered by? And he sort of got annoyed with me and he said to me, do not judge me by anything I've done at Virgin. If you want to judge the quality of my life, you judge me by my children. And that's the same everywhere. Judge me by the quality of my team.

judge me by how my team treats each other. Judge me by the quality of my children. Not what school they got into. Not what number we hit at the end of the quarter. Judge me by the quality of the people. Because at the end of the day, on our tombstones, we don't want the last balance that was in our checking account the day we died. We want to be remembered by what we did for others.

Devoted father, loving mother. You know, he inspired us. He gave. He gave us hope. That's how we want to be remembered. We want to be remembered as contributors. Why is it that we only think about these things in the in the later years of our lives.

You know, why is it that second-term presidents are obsessed with their legacies? Why not first-term presidents? Because they're more obsessed with their re-elections, that's why. You know, why is it that old people are obsessed with their legacies and not young people? How amazing would it be that a 21-year-old

starts thinking about their legacy? How amazing would it be that a 21-year-old writes their own eulogy and then tries to live a life to live up to that eulogy? How amazing would it be to choose to live an infinite life when we have our whole life ahead of us,

not when we have most of it behind us. So this is what it means to live an infinite life. It means to live a life of service so that we literally live on way beyond our own years on this planet. I love that. Purpose over progress. If you live on purpose,

there will be enough progress. Well, we progress together, right? Yeah, it's exactly right. It's not about me, it's about us. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Well, Simon, you're always a joy to talk to. This is really good stuff.

This is, as always, practical. It's got a lot of depth. Folks, you got to go, run, get this. Not just read it. I would challenge you to read this with your team. Buy it for everybody on the team. Just really get this because this is a game changer, no pun intended. Really, really good stuff.

Simon, appreciate you as always. You're always so valuable to us. I know your time is as well, so we're very grateful. Ken, such a pleasure. As always, thank you for having me on and thank you for giving me a platform to share my ideas. I really appreciate it. All right. You can pre-order this book, The Infinite.

game now by clicking the link in this episode's show notes. And folks, I don't know that you even need me to tell you to buy it, but I'm going and tell you, just go buy this book. Because this will change the way you see not only your business, but the way you see your role and the way you live your personal life as well. The last chapter might be the most valuable chapter in the book. That's my opinion. Simon was at Entree Leadership Summit last year.

And if you're interested in finding out more about this amazing event, Entree Leadership Summit, click the link in this episode's show notes. It's going to sell out. It's the best event in the leadership game. You've got to be there. We'd love to see you. All right. I'm excited. Alex Judd, the host of our Entree Leadership conferences and one of our business coaches here at Entree Leadership has been contributing and contributing well on this program the last several months. And he joins me in studio now for what I think is an incredibly exciting special announcement. Alex, welcome back. Thanks so much, Ken. Glad to be here. All right, so I'm a little excited. We're both a little bit jacked. This is a really, really fun announcement.

So I don't think anybody's really surprised about our intentionality around here. So we've had Alex contribute to this program for the last several months on purpose. One, because he's a bright, shiny star for our team in Entree Leadership. And we know what we're doing. We were exhibiting the Entry Leadership principles right before your very ears. And so without any further ado, I like to just get right. to it. I'm very pleased to announce that Alex Judd is going to be the next host of this amazing program, the Entree Leadership podcast. But I'm not disappearing, but we are excited that it is time for me to hand this unbelievably valuable baton to Alex Judd, who's going to do a great job. Now, why are we doing this? Because it's time for me to be 100% focused on my radio show, the Ken Coleman Show, a part of the Ramsey Network.

and all of the content that we are creating to help people figure out what they were created to do. And then once they know that unique role that they were put on the planet to fill, how do they make that role a reality? How do you get the dream job? And so that is the reason I was put on this planet. And I've been overjoyed to get to do that for the last two years. But as a result, I've got to be fully focused. And Andre leadership deserves the focus.

You deserve the focus. And my audience deserves the focus. So, Alex, it's time. And I'm excited about it. We had a lunch. You reminded me this morning in front of the entire Entree leadership team that we had a conversation. How long ago was that at a local burger joint? I think it was about two years ago.

It was a really good burger. It was an even better conversation that we had. And we sat down and you started doing the Ken Coleman show on me. And you asked me, what are your greatest strengths? What are your greatest passions? And I thought back to a moment, it was probably three and a half. half years ago now in Houston, Texas, when I was listening to you, I would listen to you on the podcast every single Monday. And I thought to myself, that would be a cool place to work one day. And so now to

get to step into this role, it is insane. It is surreal. I'm not sure I quite believe it yet, but I will tell you, and I know I'm voicing a belief in an opinion that is held by so many of the people, the millions of people that listen to this podcast every single year. We are so grateful to you for your intentionality, for your sense of purpose, your sense of passion, and for really the work of art that you have made this podcast. It is something that there's nothing like it on the planet, and that is largely due to the investment that you've put into it. So on behalf of the entire audience, I want to thank you. I want to thank you personally. Also, I want to let our audience know that we are giving you the opportunity to send Ken a thank you note if you want

to. So there is a link in the show notes. If you want to say anything about how Ken has impacted your life about how his questions have cut to the core of your soul or anything you've learned as a result of him being on this podcast, click the link in that show notes and submit those in. But let people know how they can be following you because if anything, you are just moving bigger, better, faster and stronger with the Ken Coleman show. Well, I love that you just mentioned the word thank you. And I think it's a perfect segue because I want to thank the audience. This has been one of the pure.

professional joys of my life. When I joined Ramsey Solutions just over five years ago, I had three main roles and host of the Entry Leadership Program was one of the three roles. And I can say with absolute clarity that of the three roles, this is the one that I looked forward to the most. There's something special about getting to sit with the men and women that I've been able to sit with on behalf of you, the listener. And I can tell you that everybody that's worked with me can tell you that I took your

ears and your heart and your mind extremely seriously. And you kept listening. And for that, I will be forever grateful. I'm passionate about helping people become who they're supposed to be and helping you become the leader that you were destined to be. And you allowed me that opportunity. And so I don't take that for granted. That's not a small thing. You, the audience, allowed me to do something that has been beyond rewarding. And so I am and will, will, remain forever grateful. So you can stay in touch. Very simple, Ken Coleman.com. That's where you can connect with me on social media. We'd love for you to listen to the Ken Coleman show. You can do that on SiriusXM, on podcast form, however you listen to podcasts, and then of course nationally syndicated

across the country, all those details at Ken Coleman.com. So hey, if you're not following me on social and you like to stay in touch, please do that. I'm told, Alex, that I'm going to still contribute every once in a while here on the program. So hopefully this isn't the last time they hear from me on this program. And as I get to do, I get to speak at our Crown Jewel events, Entree Master Series coming up this fall and then in the spring at Entree Leadership Summit. So still thrilled to be a part, of course, of this family through the extension of Ramsey Solutions. Well, you better be back. I'll tell you, I'll give you the preview right now. He just gave us the elevator pitch for his summit talk. And I had chills on my arms. I mean, this thing.

is going to blow you away. So you're going to be here and Ken Coleman around the Entree Leadership podcast and definitely go follow him on social and listen to the Ken Coleman show. Well, I'm proud of you. I'm proud of you for stepping into this because you are the manifestation of what I do and what I teach. So it's exciting to be a part of believing in you, training, and watching you step into this. You're going to do a great job, folks. He's going to take this thing further than I ever could. And I want you to support Alex by believing in him, giving grace. He hasn't been doing this as long as I have, but he's already doing a wonderful job. And that means that there is a bright, bright future, not just for him, but for this program.

So stay engaged. And so that leads me to my final piece of housekeeping. If you enjoy the Entree Leadership program, it's going to get better. Trust me. I want you to give us a five-star review. Tell your friends to subscribe. Say something great about Alex in their reviews and support him. For a chance to win a $25 Amazon gift card, you can review this episode by clicking

the link in the show notes and you can follow entree leadership on social media at entree leadership and hey follow me and the ken coleman show at ken coleman and ken coleman.com well for one final time on behalf of Alex and the entire entree leadership team and from the bottom of my heart thank you for listening I hope to talk with you again real soon