EntreLeadership - #341: Are You Indispensable? with Seth Godin

Episode Date: September 23, 2019

If you’re counting on a fancy title or Ivy League pedigree to make a name for yourself at work, world-renowned marketing expert and bestselling author Seth Godin says you’re sadly mistaken. In order to become truly indispensable—what he calls a linchpin in your organization—you have to bring a unique human sensibility to what you do. And no distinction or degree in the world can do that for you. Tune in to hear Seth explain exactly what it means to be a linchpin and why becoming one is key to your future success.   entreleadership.com/podcast Linchpin by Seth Godin Seth's podcast on Wabi-Sabi Col. Littleton: The Great American Leather Company Free download: EntreLeadership Reading Guide Review this episode for a chance to win a $25 Amazon gift card   Want expert help with your business question? Call 844-944-1070 and leave a message or send an email to [e-mail]. You could be featured on a future podcast episode! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

There's something that everyone wants, but so few actually find. It's a topic that we talk about all the time in our office and certainly on this podcast. Three words, work that matters. We all strive for it. We want to make a difference and we want to be a part of something bigger than ourselves. Nevertheless, all the data seems to say that this one thing is the one thing that evades every level of the org chart from the intern to the CEO. From the Ramsey Network, this is the Entree Leadership podcast, where we have

help business leaders grow themselves, their teens, and their profits. I'm your host, Alex Judd, and perhaps no one has spoken more authoritatively on this topic over the past decade than my guest today, entrepreneur, thought leader, and best-selling author, Seth Godin. And in this conversation, you will hear that at the heart of work that matters is a choice you and I must both make. Will you choose to be a cog that can be replaced, or will you choose to be a linchpin that is indispensable. Seth argues that the system is stacked against you to play the role of a cog. The industrial system, the one that made us all who we are today, needs cogs. It needs people who are undifferentiated, replaceable, fit in the org chart into a square box, and most of all,

do what they are told. Doing what you are told is essential if you're going to build an institution of people who are part of a giant machine, right? Well, that makes perfect sense in 1940 or 1960 or 1980 because the value in our economy and the joy was created by being part of these machines. But now the world is changing because if I can write down what you do for a living, I can find someone cheaper than you to do it, maybe even a computer. And it's going all the way to cross-country truck drivers. It's only going to be 10 years before those trucks are driving themselves. So if being a cog means being replaced, being disrespected, being underpaid, what is your alternative? And your alternative is to level up and to be one of a kind, somebody who uses judgment,

who performs emotional labor, not just physical labor, somebody we would miss if you were gone. And I call that person a linchman. And I know you described that person as being someone that's indispensable. What are the actions that you look for? What are the kind of hallmarks that make these people the lynch pins really stand out in the marketplace? It is true that I use the word indispensable, but let's agree that nobody is actually ultimately indispensable, that the world will go on without you. But in the short run, some people are a lot more indispensable than others.

these are people who bring a unique sensibility to what they do. You know, I don't know if you're a Bruce Springsteen fan or not. Oh, yeah. You got tickets to see Bruce Springsteen on Broadway, and they told you that he had a cold and his understudy would be performing. You would probably ask for a refund. On the other hand, no one knows who the sound guy is, and the sound guy might very well be doing something a different sound guy could do.

Now, there are exceptions to this. The Grateful Dead had sound guys who built a reputation because they were unique. So the question we need to ask ourselves is, do I do this job in a way that's distinct, that's personal, that shows that I care more than the average bear? Or do I do this job in a deniable standard way? And I think that's a choice. And I think you just get kind of the next question I was going to ask you is for the person that's listening to this, that agrees with what you're saying and is now trying to assess themselves and assessing where they're at. How do you actually evaluate, okay, am I playing the role of a cog in my day-to-day world or am I playing the role of a linchpin? Which one am I? How do you actually look in the mirror and make that decision? Well, we've got to go sideways for just a minute. So in one direction

is authority and in the other direction is responsibility. Management is based on authority. Are you doing something you can tell other people they have to? go along with. Responsibility, unlike authority, is something we take. It's not something we're given. Are you taking responsibility for your work? Because the reason that most people don't want to be lynchmen is not because they're not capable of it. It's because they're afraid of being blamed. It's easier to go to work and do what we were brainwashed to do, which is to follow instructions, to ask, will this be on the test, to be able to say, I'm just doing it. in my job. And what it means to choose to be a linchpin is to say, I am taking responsibility for

what is about to happen next. I am not doing it because it's my job. I'm doing it because it's the right thing to do. And that's hard because we've been abused by enough bosses, tricked by enough systems, that it's easier to just phone it in. And what I'm arguing is phoning it in leads to a downward cycle, whereas taking responsibility leads to an upward one. It kind of denies you the victim card to a degree. Is that right? Exactly. Because if you served that dish at the restaurant, even though you're not proud of it, you can't say, well, my boss made me because the fact is you did have a choice. And your choice was to push back upstream and say, you know what? The front of the house of this restaurant

is as important as the back of the house. And this dish isn't up to our standards. Let's see if we can make it better. And if we have people in organizations who take that posture with respect of let's make this better, turns out it gets better for everybody. So is that the distinguishing factor or one of the distinguishing factors? Is it that willingness to take responsibility and maybe to a degree, a sense of personal agency over your work? Well, let's think about it this way. What's the alternative? The alternative is to go to work, take no responsibility, and have no agency over your work. And that will work if you work at a place that wants a cog. And then 40 years later, after you have given up 40 years of your life, eight hours a day of your best self, what do you get in exchange? It feels to me like the human response is, what a privilege. What an opportunity to show up and take responsibility to do work where I do feel like I have agency. Because we know from endless studies, people don't hate their jobs because of what they get paid.

They get frustrated with their jobs because they don't feel like they have control. Because they have to sit in meetings all day, being told what to do, and they feel like a victim. And my point is your life, your day is too valuable to work at a place where you've been. feel like a victim. So if you're going to leave anyway, why don't you first start acting like someone who owns the place? Because then maybe you'll want to stay. You talk all the time about making a ruckus. And I think your message and kind of what you're talking about right now, for some people, this is a ruckus, right? This shakes people up to a degree. And there's probably some people listening this. Like, it's a paradigm shift for them. So if they're kind of maybe a little bit afraid or

timid of the type of change that you're talking about and how they approach work, what would you say to that person? Well, I've gotten more angry letters and emails about this book than anything I've ever written. Why do you think that is? Because it touches the fear button really directly. It calls people to attention and says, wait a minute, is this the way it has to be? And I gave a big talk to a bunch of educators. And afterwards, there was a circle of 30 people who did a Q&A with me. And I was going on about potential, how every person has in them the potential to do this kind of work. And this woman raises her hand. She was probably in her 50s. And she says, well, let me tell you something, Mr. I work at a community college. And at the community college, we have to let everybody in.

and then she said, and those people, those people will never amount to anything. And I have to confess, I started to cry right there on the stage. Because here was this woman responsible for thousands of people who had given her their hopes and their dreams, and she was calling them those people and writing them off. Well, here's what I know. Those people, when they were four years old,

told a joke that had never been told before. When they were seven, they drew a picture that had never been drawn before. When they were 12, they solved a problem that no one thought could be solved. So, no, there's nothing about humans that makes it so that they have to be cogs. It's about the system that finds it more convenient to treat them that way. Is it a choice then to be a linchpin? Is it a choice to take on this level of responsibility? Well, what else could it be?

I mean, the thing is that what I am trying to say to people, and remember, I wrote the book more than a decade ago, and it keeps getting more true because... I was about to say it's almost more relevant today than it was when you wrote it. Way more relevant because what we discovered is you could be a local driver and have loyal customers or you could drive for Uber. Which one is going to get you a better lifestyle, a better paycheck, a better feeling that you've done something that matters. The easiest jobs to get in our culture are the jobs that are the worst to have.

There are many big box stores now where the entire job interview process involves touching some buttons on an ATM-like screen, and then you're hired. Because all they're doing is seeing if you have a background in this or that, and then you're done. Because they're saying, look, we'll hire anyone. Follow the rules, and you can work here for a minimum wage. But I don't think anyone is worth the minimum. The question is, how will we extend ourselves to get maximum wage? and we will do that by being human, not by being a compliant cog.

Man, how will you extend yourself to get maximum wage? That is a powerful mindset shift culturally, I think. How does the shift towards linchpin thinking affect leadership? Okay, so leadership and management are not the same thing. Management is authority-based. You are a good manager because you can get people to do what you instruct them to do, And if they don't comply, you can get rid of them. That's management.

And we need it, but it is not leadership. Leadership has to be voluntary. Leadership is, I'm going over there who wants to come with me. And the people you need to have you follow in the first ranks are the linchpins. You have to persuade them that in their humanity, in their taking of responsibility, they will choose to follow you. And so when we look at organizations that thrive, what you will see is that the core circle of people aren't people who are just there for the paycheck. The core circle of people have chosen to follow their leader and in exchange have become leaders themselves, trying to recruit the next circle. If you have to manage people, well, that's one way of saying you weren't able to lead them.

Management is the alternative to leadership in that way. I think so. One of the things that you describe pretty regularly is that work is art and that art is work. And you broaden kind of the way you look at art and the way people should look at art. Can you give us your definition of what it means to be an artist and then how does that play out? So it's easy to get hung up on famous paintings and things that sell for $100 million. I'm not talking about that. What I'm talking about is the work of a human being who did.

something she cared about that made a change in someone else. So William Shakespeare certainly made art when he wrote his plays, and Patty Smith makes art when she sings her songs. But I would argue that a pilot who comes out of the cockpit and reassures a young kid in seat 7C before the flight takes off, that pilot, she's doing art too, because she's doing something that's not in the manual, something human, something generous, something that touches someone else.

She doesn't have to do that. She could say, well, the manual says, I don't have to do that. I'm going to sit here right in my seat. But then, as soon as we can get computers to fly planes, we will, because that's all they're going to do. What we do when we create this indispensable slot for ourselves is we give our humanity a chance to become what it's capable of, which is an artist.

And that's kind of where you get to this, idea of being indispensable in nature is, I mean, if there's a manual that tells you how to do it, then everyone could do it. Isn't that right? You know, if you look online at all the various freelance marketplaces now, you can put up a post that says, I need 5,000 word manuscript retyped, or I need someone to color correct this picture in Photoshop. When the offers come back, you just pick the cheap one, because they're all going to meet spec. Why wouldn't you just pick the cheap one. And that's a race to the bottom. And the problem with the race to the bottom is you might win. So associate with that, the race to the top is obviously a more compelling vision of what

the future looks like, but it's also a way more risky one. And there's probably a lot more mistakes involved and probably failures involved. How do you, in the pursuit of art, how do you perceive failure? Okay. Well, I was with you until halfway through, because it is not riskier. It simply feels riskier. It feels way riskier. But it's not because the alternative, which is to win the race to the bottom, you're going to fail no matter what because you're going to be disrespected and underpaid. There's no way that's not going to happen if you race to the bottom. But if you race to the top, at least you got a shot at being seen and being understood and being respected. So what we're really dealing with is how it feels to take responsibility, how it feels to put our work

out there. A simple example, if you've ever been to a craft fair, you'll see the booths of amateur artists. And one thing you'll notice is a lot of their art looks exactly the same. The paintings all sort of come close to an asymptote of this is what it's supposed to look like at the craft fair. Yeah, why do you think that is? Because it's safe. No one can criticize you if you're stuff's like everybody else's, right? The alternative is go to one of those art shows in New York City where the paintings cost a thousand times as much. None of those paintings look the same. Because the reason those paintings are valuable is first because they're not like the other ones. We already have the other ones. So the opportunity available is to say, I am willing to be criticized at the

craft fair. I am willing to be able to say to people, oh, well, thank you for looking at my painting. I'm sorry, it's not for you. That's okay, because at least it's my painting. It's not a copy of somebody else's painting. Who are some modern day examples of this in the marketplace? Well, if you can think of a brand, then it's an example, right? So if I say, let's go out for fast food and you name a brand, there's a reason you name them. You did. You did. You do. You. You do. You. You. You name them because they're just like everybody else and a little cheaper. No way. Okay, so I've got a question for you on this. Are you familiar with Waterburger? Yes. Waterburger is a famous, family-based Texas fast food chain, and that's the first restaurant I thought of was Waterburger, right? And they've

grown up, they've been family-based. It's a very down-home field. They've got unbelievable service. The food is exceptional. It is not your average fast food, and everyone knows that. But here's the deal. They were just sold to a Chicago venture capital firm. And that just happened. And people are devastated. Does that connect in some way? Does it feel like the reason why people are devastated is because they feel like they're losing some of the art that is Waterberger in that way? Or how do you explain that, I guess?

Why are people so emotionally affected by that? I just saw this online, 20,000 retweets from just the news. I mean, like, NFL players are tweeting about it. The governor is tweeting about it. People are devastated that this thing is going up to Chicago. It's crazy. First of all, I think the people who sold it have the right and the freedom to do so. Of course.

But the reason we're taking it personally is because it is personal. And that's the key to Waterburger. In New York, we would pronounce it, Waterburger, but either way. The key is we went there, if we were hamburger fans, because it was personal because a real person made it for a real person because it's not something that could easily be churned out by a committee. That's the point. That in and out burger with its secret menu. Oh, no, we can't sell you that because you don't know the name of it. That's something that a human would say, not a greedy corporation. And what happens when a big investment bank buys it is we are watching

one more corner of our humanity go away to the silliness, stupidity, selfishness of financial maximization. And people are finally saying, you know what? Financial maximization isn't making me any happier. I would like some more human maximization instead, please. And quite frankly, I'm afraid it's going to affect the cheeseburger a little bit. Well, let's just dive in that for a minute because I would be delighted to wager with you that in a blind taste test, you could not tell the difference. But the thing is, people who eat hamburgers don't eat them blindfolded. So it doesn't matter that in a blind taste test or cheeseburger is pretty similar. What matters is you don't think it's similar. And that story is what you're buying

when you go out of your way to go to a Whataburger. And now the story is different. Because now the story is, don't bother going out of your way. It's just some Yankees who own this thing. That is the explanation behind Chick-fil-A. Their chicken is good, but it's not like the best chicken I've ever had in my entire life, but people treat it like it's the best chicken they've ever had in their entire life. And it's probably something to do with the experience they've had when they were there. Right. It's an identity thing. People like us do things like this, that coming here makes me feel like the kind of person I want to be.

that coming here reminds me of the life I seek to live. That is what we are doing. If we wanted nutrition, we would stay home and eat a bowl of corn flakes. It's faster and cheaper. That's not what people go out for. People are going out for an experience that matters to them. And it seems like the way you look at this is, yes, it absolutely affects the large brands that we interact with every single day. But it seems like that reality, the fact that customers,

and people are looking for an experience, that should impact every person's everyday work if they're seeking to be a lynchman. Is that a fair assessment? Yeah, so if I'm running the business, my job as the leader slash manager is not to scold people when they go off the manual, not to give the employee of the month prize

to the person who followed every rule. My job is to embrace people when they bring their humanity to work. My job is to get as close as I can to an employee handbook that only has one rule in it, which is use your best judgment. And then hire people with good judgment, that if we do that, we are more likely to get linchpins working for us. But if my goal instead is to keep lowering labor costs, keep people off the phone, put on a recording that says your call is very important to us instead of

actually answering it, then why am I surprised that I have cogs who don't care working for me? So should employment manuals exist, in your opinion? Well, I think they need to, particularly if we're doing anything that has to do with engineering. I don't want the pacemaker people making stuff up on the assembly line. Don't get too artistic with that. I want cogs to put together the pacemaker because that's an industrial enterprise best done by a computer. Thank you very much. But what we know is that if you're going to be in a business where your people are going to be engaging with other people, they need a compass.

They need more than just the map of the boundaries. They need a compass as to what true north looks like. So in the early days of FedEx, they shared the story of the driver who, when faced with a snowstorm in Colorado, chartered a helicopter to deliver one package. Now, they told that story over and over again, not because they wanted everyone to go chartering helicopters, because that would have bankrupted them, but because they wanted people who worked for them to know what people like us do. And the other story is the Nordstrom story, where this is actually true, I've researched it.

A 75-year-old guy rolls two snow tires into Nordstroms, goes up to the tie counter where they sell men's ties and says, these snow tires aren't any use to me anymore. I want to return them. I bought them here. And the cashier at the tie counter reached into the cash register, gave the guy $200 and said, thank you very much, even though Nordstrom doesn't sell snow tires. Because this Nordstrom's was in Fairbanks, Alaska that used to be a Sears. And he had bought them there when it was a Sears. But Nordstrom's has discovered it's cheaper to teach their people to be kind humans than it is to have their people be sticklers. And so does that mean Nordstrom's gets ripped off now?

And then, of course, it does. But think of all the ads they didn't have to buy. I've heard that Nordstrom's employee training can be some. thumbed up in the phrase, use your best judgment. I've heard that's like, is that the case? Do you know? Is like, did they embed that in the culture there? They do. And there are several other places that do, high-end hotels. You know, the thing about high-end hotels, the room at three o'clock in the morning is indistinguishable from a motel six, right? Yeah. It's dark and it's quiet. So what exactly did you pay for when you paid eight times as much to stay in a fancy hotel? What you paid for are,

careful, kind people who are using their best judgment. And that's what they should encourage them to do because that's what you paid for. And I think this gets to kind of that idea of, and you've already discussed this a little bit about the race to the bottom and like if your goal is to be cheaper or more convenient, that's going to be a really hard race to win. But this can kind of be a differentiating factor. Is that what you're saying? Well, differentiation's tricky because it's selfish in the sense that I want to be different

from other people. It's sort of a bettering factor. I want to be better for my customers, where every time you engage with us, your life's going to get better, then I don't have to worry so much about you switching to a cheaper competitor because most people would rather have the extra buck than have their life get worse every time they interact. How does this perspective of work as art, like I can conceptually visualize it and how it affects the market. obviously see how it affects the musician, the screenwriter. How does it affect the accountant, the lawyer, the person that is coming to work every day and working with people, but has a specific way of doing it and does work from eight to five? Okay, so let's try lawyer. I did a recording for someone a few weeks ago, and only after it was all done did the lawyer send me an

eight-page angry release form that had so many hereafters and hear-ins and forevermore's that I refused to sign it. And it was filled with deniability. The lawyer could say, well, this is a standard in some industries. But it completely lacked in humanity because there's no requirement that lawyers use mean language, none. And that if the lawyer had realized that I was a volunteer working for free, he or she might have written a release that would have been more human, more personal, and actually would have worked. But instead, they lost whatever it costs them to lose the fact that I wouldn't sign. it. Or consider the accountant, that the part of accounting that can be done by a computer

is already being done by a computer. So what's left? What's left is the part of accounting that involves the trust of your client, that involves getting people to tell you the full story, that involves figuring out how to come up with systems that flow so you don't have to stay at work till midnight all of April. Well, those are human acts, the acts of a linchpin. Anyone can run a spreadsheet now. In fact, the spreadsheet can run itself. I don't need an accountant for that. How does the person go about identifying what is the art that is theirs to do,

theirs to engage with? How do you identify that for yourself? They're a great question. So where's the compass? I think the compass begins in where are the spots you are the most afraid. If you can understand why are you afraid of those spots, you have just found out those spots where you should head. where is the chambermaid most afraid of spending time at a typical hotel talking to the patrons

where else is she most afraid talking to her boss so those are the two places you can do a better job as a chambermaid talking to the patrons and talking to your boss that if you are a server and a restaurant and the food that you're bringing out isn't that great are you afraid of looking the patron in the eye spending an extra second at the table being extra friendly because you know the kitchen messed up? Yeah, that's exactly what you're afraid of. So go do that. Begin there. Begin at the thing that scares you. How about the leader of the small business? What is their art? Or what should they be focusing on? Okay. So small businesses fall into many categories. Some of them have a geographic advantage, though it's disappearing.

Meaning if you're the only locksmith in town, then you're going to get all the locksmith business, but you're not going to get any locksmith business from five miles away. So we begin there. What that person needs to focus on is different than the person who has a small business selling on the internet where there are 10,000 people doing what you do. So I think we have to begin with what is your position in the marketplace? When people think of you, what do they think of? Because you could never be all things to all people.

The big win is to be something to something to something. some people. So what you have to begin with is, who will I share my humanity with? Who do I care enough about to extend myself? And who am I willing to say, oh, I'm sorry, it's not for you. You're diving into something. And this is one of my favorite things I've ever heard you talk about, Seth. It's that idea. And I want to make sure I'm pronouncing it right. It's Wabasabi. Is that right? I believe the Japanese might say Wabi Sabi, but yes, go ahead. Okay. Very good. We're getting a Japanese lesson today, folks. I love it. Okay, Wabi Sabi. So you've got to lay this out, because it's one of my favorite things that you teach, lay this out for our

audience and really explain how should that affect our day-to-day actions in the marketplace? Okay, so it wasn't a term you'd ever hear in Japan until fairly recently. It's a combination of two ideas, Wabi and Sabi. And they are the ideas sort of complex, but they're the ideas of rust, handmaidness, personal, death, experience, all of it. The patina of a human has been here before. The patina of this might not be here forever. Wabi-Sabi is deeply personal. That if you have a cast-iron skillet at home, you know what Wabi-Sabi is.

And if I came to you, particularly if it was your grandmother's skillet, and if I came to you and said, here is a brand-new aluminum skillet, you. and I can prove it's better, you would not trade with me. Because the seasoning on that skillet matters to you. And you're not going to switch for a nickel. And one of the things that's going on on the Internet is that the people in Silicon Valley in Washington State, they don't like Wabi-Sabi. They do everything they can to make it slick and bulletproof and perfect and identical.

And you're not going to be able to out Amazon, Amazon. And you're not going to be able to out Google Google. It's not worth trying, but maybe you could bring some wabi-sabi to the table. Maybe you could leave behind just a little bit of a mark that a human being was involved. And that feeling that we saw you is exactly what touched you about Whataburger, right? The wabi-sabi of this isn't the same as every one of the other ones. And a human got involved in this. And yeah, it's worth extra because that's the story I get to tell myself.

There's a guy out here named Colonel Littleton that he sells. Have you heard of Colonel Littleton? You know who he is? Dave gave me one of his bags. Okay, okay. So I think that would be described as something that has Wabi-Sabi, right? Because, I mean, it is all handcrafted. It's incredibly durable.

It's incredibly reliable. And it means something. And it gets better the more you use it. And so when we think about our race to get another customer, another customer, another customer, treating them like disposable Kleenex. And we compare that to an institution that has loyal customers who say, every time I come here, it gets better because they treat me like a regular because I get more stories because it's me, it's you, it's us. That's a better path. So as someone that is inspiring to be a communicator or writer, I mean, they say all the time, bring your humanity to the work, right?

And that is a thrilling idea until you realize that means I'm going to show people something that's not perfect. And that freaks me out. I know that we have a lot of people that listen to this that are perfectionists. They don't want to send something out into the world until it's perfect. How do you address that person or what would you say to that person? Well, I care a lot about the word perfectionist. I don't think perfectionists are concerned at all about perfect. I think perfectionists are concerned about being blamed.

So perfectionists do everything they can to not ship their work. Then when you think about the things that we purchase or use, first of all, every car is a used car after one day. But going beyond that, the things that we purchase and use, the ones that we care about the most, they're not perfect by a long shot. They are simply better than good enough. Better than good enough, by definition means better than good enough. And then they interacted with a human.

Then they brought it to market. Then they found out what we felt so they could do it again and make it even better. Perfectionists don't do that. Perfectionists are still working on their first smartphone, right? There are lots of companies that could have launched the smartphone, but they waited because theirs wasn't perfect. Meanwhile, the iPhone's up to version, whatever it is, eight or nine or ten or eleven, because you go to the market.

You say, here, we made this. It's not perfect, but it's us. It has wabi sabi on it. It's real. It was made by linchpins. What do you think? That work is far more important than saying, I can prove that the, you know, that the this is perfect because in fact you can't.

That what does it mean to drive a truck perfectly from New York to California? There's a hundred ways to drive a truck perfectly from New York to California. And none of them are actually perfect because you could have saved 100 yards if you'd steered a little bit more carefully. You could have saved 100 gallons if you'd driven a little bit more slowly. You could have gotten there a couple hours faster if you'd driven faster, which is the right answer. There isn't a right answer. All that matters is you did the work.

Do you think that there's somewhat of a competitive advantage for the people that have a get-it factor around what you're talking about with regard to shipping it and better than good enough? Does that provide people an advantage? Well, again, we'll go back to can you name somebody you respect or who has done well, who is a perfectionist, who doesn't ship? I can't think of one, right? There's something on the internet called the Wayback Machine. If you got a couple of minutes to spare, go Google it. it will show you what every web page looked like at any period in time. So if you want to see what Amazon looked like in 1997, you can.

You can see their homepage from 1997. Go look at it. It's horrible. But at least it was there. And that's the lesson. The lesson is we don't reward perfect. We reward showing up with generosity. And it may be horrible, but at least in 1997 it was clearly better than good enough.

Yeah, and we have all the proof you need. It works. And so I get that it's scary to do all the things I'm talking about. I know I could sell 50 times as many books if I talked about things that weren't scary. But I would rather talk about things that are important than things that are popular. I think it's easy culturally today for us to hear you talk about creativity and hear about thinking of your work as art. And we think about those phrases that are talked about so much today about follow your passion and pursue your dreams. but it strikes me, I mean, you are probably the greatest practitioner of this, this stuff that you write. And you strike me as someone that is deeply passionate, but also incredibly disciplined. So it seems like there's a unique combination of you have to have the passion, but also the discipline has to be there. Can you teach us on that a little bit? Yeah, thank you for saying that. And it's not unique. It's essential. You know, I've gone 20 years in a row without missing a day blogging. I won't blog tomorrow. morning because my blog is perfect. I'm going to blog tomorrow morning because it's tomorrow morning. Okay, but you just said 20 years in a row and you have blogged every single day for 20 years? Yeah. Seth, that's insane. Well, it's only one day at a time. Yeah, okay, but what I want to know is how did you, when did you sit and say, I'm going to start blogging every day? What was the day 20 years ago that you put your foot down and you said, okay, every day and I'm going to look up in 20 years and I'm going to have

written a blog every day for 20 years. When did that happen? Well, it's not a great example, because it happened when I stopped writing three blog posts a day. The reason that was hard is I didn't view the blog as a marathon, as a longevity exercise. I viewed it as a free, magical way for me to share what I was thinking with people who cared. And I couldn't believe how lucky I was that I was able to do that. Because in the book publishing world, you can You have to wait a year, right? And so here's this thing. I had something to say, I could say it.

And so I was doing two, three, four, five a day. And then one day I said, you know what? Some people feel badly that they're not keeping up. So I will discipline myself to do one a day, only one a day. And once I had done like 30 days in a row, I said, wait a minute, this feels like a streak. I should just, why not? Make this a discipline. And the idea of make this a discipline, that's what we see so many successful people do.

Every day they will hit the pool or the treadmill. Every day they will make sure that they get enough sleep. Not most days, a discipline. So you can pick your disciplines. You don't have to pick every discipline, but you should have some. Because if you have a discipline, you don't have to think about it anymore. You already made the decision. I didn't decide today to blog tomorrow.

I made that decision a long time ago. Now the only decision I have to make is what should I blog, not should I blog? So it seems to me, and I've experienced this, the trouble with picking a discipline or the challenge of picking a discipline, even if you're a disciplined person maybe, is you know that with the discipline you pick, there's an opportunity cost. For sure. And because Seth has chosen to write every day, he's choosing not to do a video message. every day or he's choosing not to write a song every day, right? Absolutely. Because you chose to do this, you're choosing not to do that.

So I think sometimes the blocker for me and I think probably the blocker for a lot of people is that how do I know I'm choosing the right thing? Like what if I'm spending all this time on something that I shouldn't actually be spending time on? Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Like when Twitter came along, I saw it the first week, I could have had a lot of people

following me on Twitter. But I said to myself, well, I have a choice. I can either be mediocre at tweeting and blogging, or I could stop blogging, or I could not tweet. Those are my choices. And I'm glad I made the choice I made, but yeah, there's an opportunity cost. Here's the question, back to where we started.

What's the alternative? The alternative, as Zigler would say, is to be a wandering generality, to do whatever feels like the most urgent in the moment, to not get through the dip and to stay just on one side. And my argument is you're going to do this work anyway. And it's way easier to do this work well when you're on the other side, on the side of scarcity, on the side that you only get to with discipline. It's like the fresh powder at the ski area.

It's harder to get to, but it's more fun to ski. It seems like today, and I think you kind of already alluded to this, saying that this book is more relevant than ever today. And the idea of being a linchpin is more relevant. and probably the reason why it's most relevant is because we probably live in a cog world that encourages people and probably pushes people into being a cog, into being a number, into being a unit of production. What would you say to someone is the first action for swimming upstream in that world? What is the first actionable, practical thing that they can do to start doing work that matters?

It is a great question. If you want to be public speaker, it helps to start by talking to do. dogs. That it's really safe to talk to dogs. And then you can move up to small children and then you're on your way. And if you want to do this work, it really helps to have a daily blog. Don't tell anyone you're writing it. Just write it. It really helps to find small, little things you can take responsibility for. Small, little tiny opportunities that you can use to make a difference. That these choices on your part, to do these small things and survive them, we'll start to remind your lizard brain that it's not fatal.

And that's how we learned how to walk. That's how we learned how to talk. And that's how we learned to do everything that's important. Little, tiny bits of proof that you can do it a little. Don't try to do it a lot. Don't quit your job and go say, I'm going to start the next slack. That's insane. Do something tiny and perfect.

personal, take responsibility for it, realize it didn't kill you, and then do it again. It seems like this is an internal decision that people have to make with extremely external ramifications. Like it's going to make a ripple effect in the world around you. So why does this matter, not just for the individual that's making this decision, but why does it matter for other people? Why does it matter for the world? Well, I think it's the only hope we've got to avoid seven-person oligopoly. that runs a giant artificially intelligent multinational. It tells us everything we're going to do, see, consume, and share.

Because the system would prefer if we were predictable cogs, buying what we were supposed to buy, working when we were supposed to work, and doing what we are told. And every time I've ever read a book about that system, it hasn't had a happy ending. I think humans deserve better than that, but the only way we're going to get it is by doing it ourselves.

What is the final word of encouragement you would give people to send them off, motivated and excited about the message they heard today? Well, here's the thing. We're going to broadcast this podcast right around the 50th anniversary of the Apollo 11 mission to the moon. And I was lucky enough to hear Neil Armstrong tell the story of that mission, probably his last public event. And they did it on a big mesa in New Mexico. And they built a big campfire after some. sunset. They brought us all out. It was cold. And I think there was some timing involved because just as he got to the best part of the story, the biggest full moon I have ever seen started to rise over his shoulder. And Neil turned and he pointed to the moon and he said, I've been there. 50 years ago, right, with a total computing power less than the phone in your pocket,

we sent three people into outer space, two to the moon, and they came back safely. So just look up at the moon and realize there are footprints on it. And the next time you come to the conclusion that something's too hard or beyond you, just remember there are footprints on the moon because we need you. Well, Seth, I know I speak for our entire audience when I say we appreciate your message, but more than that, we appreciate the way that your life aligns with your message. So thanks so much for sharing with our audience. So regularly, we're super grateful to you for your time today.

It's a privilege. Go make a ruckus, everybody. If you're like me, you've got show bumps right now. There are footprints on the moon. I'll tell you, that means something to me personally. My dad worked at NASA growing up. He still does. But I honestly think that means something to us as Americans.

It shouldn't mean something to us as human beings. And I love what Seth said, that anytime you're feeling like you don't want to get out of bed, Anytime you're feeling like you don't want to take that risk, anytime you don't want to bring your full self to everything you do, just remember there are footprints on the moon. I know what so many of you are thinking right now. I need to go get a copy of Lynchpin by Step Godin.

Now I'm right there with you. I'm going to go read it again after that interview. And I'll tell you, that's one of the biggest questions that we get from entree leaders around the country all the time, is what are the books you recommend? We got the question so many times that our team created a list. These are the 100 books that we recommend for anyone that's interested in personal growth, leadership, or just growing in the area of influence. And so if you want to take advantage of that leadership reading guide that our team created for you,

you can text 100 books to 3344. Again, that's 100 books, no spaces to 33444. Or you can click the link in the show notes. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Entree Leadership podcast. If you did, please give us a five-star review and tell your friends to subscribe. For a chance to win a $25 Amazon gift card, you can review this episode by clicking the link that's in the show notes. And be sure to follow us on social media at Entree Leadership. This episode was produced by Tim Hull, and it was edited and mixed by Will Rutter.

I'm Alex Judd and on behalf of the entire Entree Leadership team. Thanks for listening. We'll talk with you again very soon. Enjoy this podcast. You should check out our other great podcast from the Ramsey Network, like Business Boutique. Hey, I'm Christy Wright, and I help women all over the country take their ideas and passions and hobbies and turn them into profitable businesses. If you have an idea in your head or a dream in your heart and you've ever wondered if you could make money doing it, I'm here to help. Join us on the Business Boutique podcast where we are equipping women to make money doing what they love. To hear full episodes, just search Business Boutique, wherever you listen to podcast, or go to Bidique.

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