EntreLeadership - #353: The Art of Possibility with Benjamin Zander

Episode Date: December 16, 2019

If you’re lucky enough to witness Benjamin Zander at work conducting the Boston Philharmonic, you’ll instantly notice two things: his infectious passion for classical music and the sheer joy he brings to his work. And that, he says, is thanks to his unfailing belief in the power of possibility. Tune in to hear how possibility has transformed his personal and professional life and why living in a place of comparison and fear is nothing but self-destructive.   entreleadership.com/podcast Benjamin Zander’s website The Art of Possibility by Rosamund Stone Zander and Benjamin Zander EntreLeadership Summit 2020 Benjamin Zander's Interpretations of Music Classes - YouTube Listen to Beethoven: Symphony No. 5, Final Movement Review this episode for a chance to win a $25 Amazon gift card   Want expert help with your business question? Call 844-944-1070 and leave a message or send an email to [e-mail]. You could be featured on a future podcast episode! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Have you noticed that oftentimes, the more experienced people get, the more negative they become? Seriously, it seems like the more time people spend, even in leadership, the more they are likely to become skeptical or even cynical about their work, their impact, and their future. Most don't do it intentionally, and I think some don't even get stuck there consciously. But if we are not careful, we all run the risk of living and leading from a place of scarcity. From the Ramsey Network, this is the Entree Leadership Podcast, where we help business leaders grow themselves, their teams, and their profits. I'm your host Alex Judd, and today's guest is the living, breathing enemy of scarcity thinking. You see, today my conversation is with one of our speakers at this year's Entree Leadership Summit in Orlando,

Benjamin Zander. As the founder and the conductor of the Boston Philharmonic Orchestra, he is renowned for his ability to unleash the musical potential of some of the best musicians in the world. But his contributions extend far beyond the realm of the concert hall, because at 80 years old, his unyielding energy and truly remarkable worldview have impacted audiences of world leaders, executives, and innovators around the globe. And at the core of everything that Ben stands for and everything that he says is the power of possibility. Possibility thinking is a way of looking at the world. A story that I love to tell is the story of the two shoe salesmen who go

to Africa in the 1900s to see if they can sell shoes. And they each send a telegram back to Manchester. One telegram reads, situation hopeless, stop, they don't wear shoes. The other one says, glorious opportunity, they don't have any shoes yet. Your laughter is the laughter of possibility. In other words, it's not at the expense of anybody. It's not making fun of anybody. Did you realize how much of the time laughter is at the expense of somebody? If you listen to situation comedies on television on the radio, you hear, I suppose, 95% of the jokes are made at the expense of someone. Possibility is never at the expense of anybody.

We're laughing when we laugh at the comedy of life, the human condition. Like the two old gentlemen who are sitting at. looking at a sunset, puffing on their pipes. And one says the other, how's your wife? Well, there's a long pause, and the sun goes down, and they puff on their pipes. And then the other one says about 15 minutes later, compared to what? Now, there's that laughter again. You see, what we're laughing at is those two gentlemen were talking from different places.

One of them was just being gracious, friendly, opening up to, his friend. The other one was looking for a medical report. The humor of that is that we don't make clear distinctions in our life between one thing and another. So the person who says situation hopeless, they don't wear shoes, is looking at the world through a particular story. He's seeing something. And then he reacts to it by saying, well, that's hopeless. The other one looks at exactly the same circumstances and it comes up with a totally different story, which is glorious opportunity. They don't have any shoes yet. And you notice that my voice suddenly becomes animated and energized and I'm full of passion and excitement and my eyes are shining

and your eyes are shining because we suddenly realize we have a fantastic opportunity to create something new. That is possibility. Now the story that I love to tell and maybe I'll tell it in Orlando when we all get together. It's for me a classic story of my father who came from Germany and fled from Nazi Germany, lost his mother in one of the concentration camps and eight other members of the family wiped out. He lost his home, his belongings, his money, his career, his language, his friends, everything, came to England.

And now he was interned in a camp, the English in their infirm. wisdom like the Americans with the Japanese put all the Germans in not concentration camp, but internment camps. So there were 2,000 men on the Isle of Man with barbed wire fence around. And you can imagine what level of depression and fear and anxiety. Oh my gosh, people were probably devastated. Devastated. And some of them would just sit and stare at the barbedo fence all day because they were so depressed. He looked around and said, wow, there are a lot of intelligence. people here. We should have a university. And so he started a university in that camp.

Your dad did this. He started a university in an internment camp. In the camp, they had 40 lectures a week. Now, they didn't have a single book. There were no blackboards, no chalk, no, nothing, no paper, nothing, just people talking to each other. That is possibility. If he'd gone around saying to people, isn't this great, somebody would have hit him in the face because positive thinking is pretending things are good, and that's why positive thinkers are so annoying. But possibility is an open-ended pathway always available under all circumstances. You can find some pathway in every circle. And there's no situation that is so bad that you can't find possibility, and there's no situation that is so good that it's not open to the downwind.

spiral, that other way of looking at the world, situation hopeless, or where you feel fear or jealousy or competition or success, failure, all those things. We call that the downward spiral. It's actually the upward spiral as well as the downward spiral. Because when you have success, the problem with success is you're worried that you're going to fail. So when you lose, you're worried you're going to, when you win, you're worried you're going to lose. So that world, that paradigm, we call it the downward spiral because the downward spiral is the inevitable thinking in that world. And it's a world of measurement, of competition, and therefore fear, anxiety, pressure. And most people spend most of their time in that world. And particularly our children,

unfortunately, spend the majority of their time, particularly as they get close to college age and they're worried about their college essay and they're worried about whether they're going to get into a good college, and all that pressure mounts up. And that's why we have a lot of kids taking drugs and drinking and, God forbid, suicide. Because of all the anxiety that's caused by it, I am terrified to make a mistake. Exactly. Now, I have a particular view, which people will hear about when we do our talk, which is that when you make a mistake, you throw your hands up in the air and say, how fascinating.

Well, and of course there's that laughter again. That's how you react to a mistake. Yes, I encourage all my players and students to do that if they make a mistake, but they have to do the whole thing. Throw the hands up in the air and say with joy and open-heartedness, how fascinating. Because then what you've got, first of all, is physical freedom, whereas if you make a mistake and you pull down, as we usually do when we make a mistake, the body pulls down. Try this on the golf course next time you're out. It's difficult to do because the body naturally. pulls down. So instead of

pulling down where you're more likely to make another mistake, you throw the hands up in the air and say joyfully how fascinating you learn something and it creates a totally different mood and you're smiling and laughing in possibility and everyone listening to this podcast is too. That's the beauty

of the possibility model because it's actually a universal thing that all human beings experience together and they all respond and that's why I have such infinite joy when I give these presentations because everybody in the room is engaged in the same way

and the eyes are shining everybody's eyes are shining even the cynics you see a cynic I meet a lot of quote cynics so that's what I was going to ask you if someone hears you talk about possibility thinking and maybe it's not even their fault maybe they've just been let down a lot

right and maybe they're very negative and very discouraged and very pessimistic and they look at you and they cross their arms and they say, I don't, I don't buy it, Ben. That's not been my experience. How do you respond to that person? Well, that's exactly right. And I come across that a lot. I go from one orchestra to another. I'm a guest conductor. And when a guest conductor walks in, you can imagine what the, what the players are thinking, oh, God, here we go again. And they wished that I wasn't there and they wish that they weren't there. So then what do I say? I say a cynic is a passionate person who doesn't want to be disappointed again. So then instead of giving in to their disappointment

or their fear of disappointment, I speak to their passion because I know they're passionate. They wouldn't be a musician if they weren't originally passionate. They played in some youth orchestra. They decided music was going to be their life. And then they had one disappointing experience. after another, and I speak to that passion. Suddenly, I have a hundred passionate people in front of me, and cynicism has disappeared. So the thing to get and to master is that life unfolds in a story. We all create stories, and the stories can either be downward spiral stories, stories of fear, anxiety, measurement, comparison, failure, success, or they can be stories of possibility. It's a discipline, a rigorous discipline, because the downward spiral way of thinking doesn't have to be practiced.

That comes automatically. And all those emotions which I just spelled out, they're automatic. You feel jealousy, you feel fear, you feel anxiety, pressure, whatever. That's automatic. You don't have to work on it. In order to create a university in a terribly depressing circumstance, you have to. to work very hard and very disciplined. And it depends enormously on the language, the words we choose, the way we express ourselves, the way we walk, the way we talk to each other. You know,

it's so interesting. The automatic response, if somebody says, how are you, the response may be, okay, not bad, hanging in, right, fine, hanging in there, surviving. I met one of my colleagues the other day. I said, Larry, how are you? He said, breathing. It's very blunt. That's the lowest fall. Now, in the world of possibility, you can think of something that will surprise people, enliven people, make their eyes shine. So recently in my new youth orchestra, which I've now been running for seven years, but it's comparatively new, I train the players, young players, the 12 years old, 12 up to 21. And I train them in these ways of being, I think you could call them.

them, this attitude to life. And so I say, don't just say something casually like a cliche if somebody says, come up with something special, something that makes the other people feel connected in life. So I came into the rehearsal one day and I said to one cellist, I said, John, how are you? He said, if I were any better, I'd be a twin. Now, there's that laughter again. You see, it's not the laughter of getting the better of somebody. it's the laughter of the joy of realizing how free we actually are as spirits.

We're not limited to the traditions or to the rules or to the restrictions or what they call out-of-the-box thinking, that way of being. And that's one of the things I'm going to do in that presentation in May is to make absolutely clear what it means to be out-of-the-box and how to get there. And that's going to be one of the themes and giving up assumptions. There are all sorts of ways that we can access this world of possibility. And what happens when you access that world is miracles occur, miracles of all kind. You already hit on the idea that this is a narrative.

This is a story that's going on in your head and it's a discipline. What I love about this, though, is in your case, you don't have to be the conductor to have this narrative. And the people listening to this, you don't have to be the CEO to have this narrative. Absolutely not. Can you speak to the idea that it's like it has influence from wherever you sit? Wherever you are, exactly. That's one of the things in the book that I talk about in The Art of Possibility, that you can actually be the leader in the 11th chair of the cello section. One of the players discovered that. She was very upset because she was sitting so far back. Usually she sat in the front. And for whatever reason, the audition didn't go right and she was sitting at the back.

And adding injury to insult, she was sitting next to a 10-year-old and she was, I think, 21. And she found that very irritating. And for several days of the preparation of this rehearsal, she was very irritable and angry. And then suddenly she got it. She realized that she could be the leader from the back. And it was a revelation. And she wrote. this beautiful letter, which is in the book. So how do you do that? How do you start leading when you don't have a position, when you're not first chair violin, how do you start leading from wherever you sit?

Yeah. Well, that's a beautiful question. That is a question in possibility because you are genuinely interested in that question. You're not saying it as a skeptic saying, well, you can't lead from the back. You're saying, how do you lead from the back? The answer is it's a very subtle thing and it's not provable. That's the thing about possibilities. You can't prove it.

It's not a theory. It's a way of being. So let's assume for a moment that this cellist sitting in the back is feeling joyful, energized, excited about the music, wanting to communicate, realizing that although the conductor is very far away, much further away than she's used to when she's sitting up the front. Actually, she can create a different kind of relationship with the people around her, with the conductor, seeing the whole picture. Suddenly she begins to feel that she's at the source of some important role.

And it suddenly changes. It's all the story in the head. It's all invented. The whole thing is invented because the story of, I don't believe, along here, or I'm not good enough, or I'll never amount, whatever the story is, that's all invented too. The beauty is you can change the story if it's not working for you. To find a new story for the circumstances in which you're in, the circumstances don't matter. Because for the two shoe salesmen, it didn't matter what the circumstances were. What matters what they said about it.

And what, in my father's case, the circumstance, devastating circumstances of loss and fear and pressure and disappointment. That didn't matter. What matters what he said about it. There's a wonderful film called Life Is Beautiful. Do you remember that movie? Yes, sir. Benini, I can't remember. Roberto Benini, I think.

The story is of a man who continuously creates stories of possibility to support his story. son. He wanted to, I think it was his son, I forget the circumstances, but the point is always that we have the power. Each one of us, every one of us, even young children, you know, maybe particularly young children, they have this capacity of creating an environment in which their imagination, their spontaneity, their ingenuity and their connectiveness, is, creates relationships and circumstances that you wouldn't imagine or wouldn't believe. And that's the miracle when we have children. That happens all the time. When we get older, the trouble is we get assumptions which get locked in place. I'm no good at that. One of the things I do in the

presentation in May is I'm going to take a piece of music and show that every single person, there are going to be 4,000 people in the wrong. Every single one of them is going to walk out with a profound, moving relationship to classical music. And I say they're with absolute confidence. There is no question that every single one of the people in that room is going to feel it. Okay, so that's a powerful concept. That is a bold and audacious claim. Right.

Because I know in studying everything that you've written and talked about, I think the current data is that 3% of the world listens to classical music or something like that. So how do you come at a stat like that from a place of possibility? Well, that's from my experience. So in other words, I'll tell you a very funny story. I gave a talk in England. I talked to 500 school administrators. And I gave the talk and it was wonderfully successful. And everybody's having a wonderful time singing and the eyes were shining and everything was great, except for one person. One person didn't respond. Absolutely no response. He didn't sing. He didn't laugh. He didn't nothing. He didn't stand up with. would you understand nothing and so where did my eyes go continuously of course to that one man because that's the downward spiral we notice the things that are negative and our eyes go there automatically and so then the thing was over and i called my partner ros i said ros she said how did he go i said it was great except one of course except that one person that one guy exactly why do we all do

that, though. We all focus on the one critic. Well, that's the downward spiral in action. And human nature is to always go to that place, unless you have the discipline and the clarity to know that there's another place to go.

But at that moment, I was in the downward spiral, and I said there was this one person who didn't respond. And she said, I don't believe it. Now, that's possibility. She said, I don't believe it. I said, Ross, you went there. He didn't respond.

He didn't stand. He didn't sing. He didn't laugh. She said, I don't believe it. So that night there was a party. And there he was at the party. So I went up to him and I said, you know, I'm having an argument with my wife about you. I said, you didn't respond to the talk this afternoon.

And my wife said, she didn't believe it. And he said, I'm so sorry. I was having a diabetic attack, and I thought if I moved, I would faint. And so I just stayed, but I love the talk. Oh, my word. Attach yourself, connect yourself to classical music. You find that there's a spiritual uplift, an act of anti-gravity. And I can bring people in touch with that, and therefore I can show them that whatever they're thinking,

whatever their assumptions about their own ability to connect with classical music, I can show them that they, in fact, have a powerful relationship with that. And then that opens up the question, well, what else in my life could I have a relationship with that I've closed down? So it's about opening doors about making people available. It's really about being available. I think some people maybe, especially in leadership positions, there's people out there that have maybe, you are speaking what they've, always felt, right? You're putting words to something they've always felt, and they're like,

yes, that's why I started my business is because I thought this way. But now the challenge becomes, how do I get the people on my team to think the same way? How do I get them to have that narrative? So how do you create almost a culture of possibility? A culture of possibility? That's exactly right, because the culture that we are accustomed to is one of fear, blame, threat, punishment. Yeah, that's corporate America. that's corporate America. And so, and that's true in the orchestra as well. So the fear that the players have that the conductor will blame them, will find fault with them, will fire them or whatever. That hierarchical relationship is deeply rooted into the system. And what I'm doing,

and others are doing it too in different ways, is to flattening out the hierarchy so that each person has a role to play which is absolutely crucial. You cannot do without the second flute. You cannot do without the second violin. And so give that person the feeling of the absolute significance of what they're doing, the respect and the love that you have for them and for their role. And the conductor just has another role. It's not as if he's better than he has, he has the role. The timpity player has a role and he has a role. And that's where that relates and kind of ties in perfectly to leadership. I know you talk a lot about 20 years into conducting and you had a realization that changed the way you view the entire thing. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

A key moment when I realize that the conductor doesn't make a sound. The conductor is the only musician who doesn't make a sound and yet he has great power. His power comes from his ability. to make other people powerful. Now, that realization caused such a transformational shift in my life that people in my orchestra noticed it and said, what happened? What happened to you? They couldn't believe that somebody who had basically grown up

and was practicing the other model of domination, control, the hierarchical model, which has been used by leaders for the last 75,000 years, they saw a shift in me and therefore in themselves. And it caused them to find a new spirit, a new way of connecting, a new freedom in their music making. And I added many different strategies, for instance, I put a white piece of paper on the stand of every musician.

I'll talk about this in the presentation. It's very exciting what happened when I gave a voice to every single member of the orchestra at every rehearsal and said, speak to me, tell me, what is going on for you? What can you say that will make this a more creative, more constructive situation? And I get some unbelievable insight from these musicians who've never been asked in their lives to say anything to the conductor.

And they love it. I mean, they love to do it, and they're honored to have that role. and they never abuse it because since they sign it, I don't accept the sheet if it's unsigned. They never abuse that privilege. They love it. And they think of themselves as contributors to the project.

And that's a pretty big deal. We have business owners all the time. I get to work as a business and leadership coach. And the number one question we get is, how do I get my people to care about this thing as much as I do? I believe that an environment that is true, true in the sense that we are talking of being a true possibility environment, is one in which everybody cares as much as they have the capacity for. And, you know, I've run this orchestra.

I have two orchestras in Boston. One is the Boston Philharmonic, which is a great orchestra of professionals and plays at the highest level. and I have a youth orchestra, 12 to 21. And those 12-year-olds pour their passion and their love and in intensity and their commitment to the music as much as any of the adults do. And it's a beautiful thing to see. And they play great music, music of stunning difficulty and complexity.

Marla's 9th Symphony, they have a recording of Marla's 9th Symphony that was chosen by the Chicago Tribune as one of the 10 best recordings of the year. I mean, imagine that is unbelievable. And that's because that's part of the other technique of giving everybody an A. I'll talk about that too. That's one of the cornerstone ideas

that instead of looking down from on high as a conductor or as a leader, you look eye to eye equal and you speak to the person, the other person. You speak to the best part of that person. the part that wants to succeed, that wants to contribute. And that's a different way of speaking.

Because I think a lot of times John Maxwell talks about this a lot is treat everyone like a tin, and you'll be surprised at how they start acting like a tin. And it's almost like you're treating, you're seeing possibility in other people, and as a result, they inevitably start living up to the way you treat them. Exactly. Exactly. And that's the idea. Your job is to awaken possibility in other people. And it doesn't matter what your job is. Is that a powerful line?

Is that the primary role of a leader? Yeah, to awaken possibility in other people. And it's true of the CEO. It's true of the coach and a football team. It's true of the parent. It's true of the schoolteacher. It's true of every, it's even true of, or particularly true, of the partner in a marriage. No part of life that can't be enhanced.

elevated by this way of thinking. I think there's a lot in our world today that tells us to think downward, right? To compare yourself to other people, to look at the metrics, to view yourself as always not being enough and needing to strive for more. One of the things that I think is so inspiring about you is I've seen videos of you coaching students and they play in what I believe is an unbelievable performance and then you coach them and you're like, you're too focused. on making a mistake.

You just need to feel, and you almost awaken this part of them that used to exist when they were a kid and they become passionate again and excited. How do you bring that out of people? You have this unique gifting that you get people to perform in a way that they've never done it before. What are the tactics or techniques there? Well, that's a beautiful thing. First of all, thank you for pointing out.

These are classes that I do. It's called Interpretation of Music and Lessons in Life. It's a series on the YouTube. We'll post a couple of the links to these on the show notes because they're wonderful. Well, that's lovely. And we're amazing now. These are music classes, but they've had six million views and over six million views now. And that's a thrilling idea that there are people around the world who's sitting watching a music class.

But I would argue that's because they're not just a music class. Right. I mean, in everything you talk about, there are so many leadership and life principles that transcend. So the question, how do you do it? What I look for is where is the place where that person is stopping? Where is the barrier? What is stopping them from being fully expressed, fully engaged, fully alive? And I point at that place and push them through that moment.

And it's, again, what the job of a parent, a job of a friend, the job of a friend, the job of a coach is to find the place where that person is stopped. It might be psychological. It might be physical. It might be intellectual. That feels, though, whether it is or not, I don't know, but that feels dangerous to go to that place. And you can see for that individual.

Exciting. Exciting. Yeah. But it's like at the very edge of your comfort zone. Right. Exactly. It's pushing you through because the comfort comes from knowing what you know. we all know what we know

and we all know what we don't know but what we don't know is what we don't know that we don't know that's where it lives and that's where great art lives it's where great spirituality lives and that has nothing to do with believing having faith in some God

or anything like that it's just it's that domain that spiritual arena where we're all capable of functioning but we hold back out of fear out of comfort. We want to be comfortable. When you have a remote team, it can be hard for them to stay culturally connected and also

on the same page. And our friends at Belay know this firsthand. You see, they've got a 100% remote team. And they provide virtual assistance and virtual bookkeeping services for small businesses around the country. So here's what they've done. They've compiled their best practices for working remotely and a free resource that's called 13 ways to build a high-performing

remote team. It will keep you and your remote team culturally connected just as if you shared four walls. So to get this free resource, text the word belay to 31996. Again, that's the word belay spelled B-E-L-A-Y to 31996. So you refer to this thinking as a mindset and certainly living just beyond your comfort zone as a mindset and really a discipline that has to be built. If someone's listening to today and they're like, okay, Ben, I'm all in. What are the first steps I should take? Or what are the first disciplines or habits that I should start building? Well, it could be any number of different things.

You know, one of the things we do without really noticing is that we stay in our little tribes. You know, when I go on tour with my youth orchestra, there are 110 kids or whatever they are. And you look around and sure enough, all the Asian girls are together, all the tall brass players are together. It's hilarious. I mean, it's as if, and they're all musicians and they all play together. But there's a human, it's very natural. It's comfortable to be in a zone where you're, where other people are doing exactly the same thing, thinking exactly the same way, speaking the same way.

So one of the things one can do is just go out of that zone, speak to somebody you've never spoken to. And I do that a lot. and some of the best experiences I have are the people. Let me give you an example. I have a wonderful garden in the front garden. It's so beautiful. And then I have it almost more beautiful garden in the back.

So I put a notice in the front garden saying, there's more beauty in the back, please peek. And so people come off the street and come into my back garden. I may be sitting reading or whatever. And they just appear. And suddenly I have a whole lot of new friends, which... Ben, you are like... Like everyone's favorite grandpa.

You are amazing. This is unreal. So we came to Boston today. We could come take a look at the garage. Yeah, absolutely. One day, one young lady came in with her mother and she was looking around and the gun, and I was having lunch, and so I invited them to have a little glass of wine. And then she became my assistant because she was looking for a job.

Okay, but I think there's something, there's something, I mean, I'm laughing right now, but there's something powerful to the idea that it's a discipline. to expose yourself to new people, new ideas, new ways of thinking. It's a discipline to be open. And I don't mean that in a silly way of, you know, just throwing yourself around. But just walking around in possibility, you have a different look on your face. Your body is one of the assignments I give, because I give assignments to all the students in my youth orchestra. Every week they get an assignment.

And one of the most powerful ones is walk with spirit and love. That's the assignment actually to walk. with spirit and love. And people do that, and they find the most amazing things happen, because most people are not walking with spirit and love. They're walking with fear and resentment. And, of course, one of the tragedies of our life at the moment is that we're not training our leaders to live in possibilities.

That's the opposite of what we want, our children and our friends. It's so fascinating, though, and you look at how an example can change things. pair a lot for these interviews. And so I've spent the past handful of days. I literally feel like I've been hanging out with you for the past couple of days, watching your videos, reading your books, reading articles about you. And I kid you not, I hopped out of bed at 4.30 this morning. And I went to the gym and I listened to Beethoven's Fifth Symphony. Like, are you kidding me? But it's because I, there was something that was lit in me. And it's because whatever you were having, I was like, I want some of that. Give me some of that. And that's, and that's,

of course, you're absolutely right. And it's, when I say that I'm a good vicar, what I mean is that it's not me that you're reacting to. I'm a good vicar, but you're not reacting to me. You're reacting to this powerful thing called possibility. And you can plug into it, like you, you know, you take a plug and put it into the socket and the light goes on, right? It happens every time. That's how electricity works. If you took that plug and put it in a, divan or in a sponge or a potato, it wouldn't work. So you have to know where to put that plug and the place to put it is possibility. That's the discipline and that's why the book, the art of possibility, is a series of practices to ensure that in whatever circumstances

we will be able to access possibility reliably, predictably and ongoingly, not as something like the weather you hope it's going to be good weather. No, we need. We need. We need. We are know how to get good weather. I remember a lovely moment that I was just about to go into a rehearsal and I said to the personnel manager, I hope it's a good rehearsal. And she said, well, it's entirely up to you. Man, that's a powerful moment. It's a powerful moment. Exactly. It's entirely up to you. That's powerful. And that's true of an eight-year-old child as much as it is as a CEO of a company. I have a question and final leadership question before. I want to hear a little bit about you individually. You've traveled the world and you've been with some great performance groups.

The symphonies that you have conducted are among the best. I would like to know what is the difference maker, what is the difference maker between the great symphony orchestras and the best in the world? Well, you know, it's a very interesting question because I can approach this from different angles. If you take the Boston Symphony, now the orchestra that I conduct is the Boston Philharmonic, right? So this is the other orchestra. I went to hear them this weekend. Every single play on that orchestra is fantastic.

I mean, the level of playing is spectacular. Same true of the Philharmonial orchestra which I conduct or the Israel Philharmonic. These are the world-class orchestras, the best of the best. The thing that motivates them to play at the highest level the very highest level, is a conductor who opens up the emotional pause, the listening, the intensity, the passion, the engagement, the love, which those players have inside them. Without that galvanizing force of the leader who opens them up, they have all those qualities,

but it's the leader who releases them. And so I would say, I said to the Israel Philharmonic once, they were in the middle of a rehearsal, they were playing with such passion, such beauty. I stopped them. I said, you know, you're a world-class orchestra and you play like a youth orchestra. And I think they were beaming with pleasure. What that means is the level of playing has to be astronomical. But the attitude, the mood, the feeling has to be that of a youth orchestra.

of people who were playing as if it was the first time with that sense of wonder, that sense of awe, that sense of just sheer delight at the beauty that they're in touch with. Those qualities young people have, and one of the assignments that I give the young musicians and conductors in a class is, come from the power of a child,

come from the power of a child, because the child has that, sense of newness of wonder, of discovery, of amazement, which older people find very hard to access. And so one of the roles that I have, I feel, is to enliven people's childish nature, the nature which is discovering and amused and delighted and could fall over and get up without any problem. You know, those... Oh, my gosh. Yeah. And I mean, it seems like there are too many people out there that in their pursuit of mastery

they lose the wonder and they lost the reason why they did it in the first place that's... And Simon Rattled the great conductor of the Berlin Philharmonic when he introduced me to a group he said I was the world's oldest teenager. I love

that introduction. That's right. I'm 80 now. I just turned 80 and I'm not. You've been called the Energizer Bunny of classical music. I do not struggle for energy, and I feel like I'm struggling to keep up right now, then. Like, you're bouncing off the walls. I can't wait for people to see you in Orlando. Where does that vibrancy? I mean, you are brimming. It's overflowing. Where does that come from? It comes from possibility. It comes

from the realization that the world is open. The book is open. The heart is open. There's nothing which is fixed or stuck. And my father wrote a book when he was young intellectual, and in the time of this founding of Israel, he wrote a book addressed to the Jewish people. It was called Is This the Way? Is this the way? It was a question. And it was an answer to a book which was called,

this is the way. Already you have the whole thing. Because it's a question. We're engaged in an inquiry and then you die. Life is an inquiry and then you die. That's all there is. And so it's a fascinating process. And he was a very wise man, and he said in that little pamphlet,

we are about to set up the homeland of the Jewish people in Palestine. And that's appropriate, given our history, that's an appropriate thing to do. But in order to do so, we are asking of the Arab people the ultimate sacrifice, which is to give up their land. If we remember that in every conversation and in every interaction, we will find them the most courteous of people. And if we forget it, we will be doomed to eternal struggle. Now that, for me, was a model as a child growing up of somebody who understood that all we need is understanding appreciation of the other people. other person and to remember it all the time. And then people will react in kind. That was a great

model for me and remains a great model to this day. Certainly. We said you're bringing with energy and creativity and passion and vibrancy. And at the same time, if you're an adult that only acts like a kid, you never get anything done. So you've got like all this creative. Wait a minute. Let me just, because that's an assumption you're saying about kids. My steps on when he was four made model boats and he couldn't read but he had put out the instructions and he looked at them and looked at them he would sit there for four hours and work on those model boats without looking up i mean dedication commitment passion stick tuativeness you know okay so yeah you just you just disprove my question then because what i was going to ask is how do you and i still

curious as to how do you maintain the high level of creativity and at the same time introduce the ruthless discipline that it takes to be, I mean, you are one of the best in the world at what you do. So how do you combine those two and not swing too far to one side? Maybe it's not that it's two sides of a coin. Maybe that's the answer. Well, then they need each other because in order to be effective in possibility, you have to be masterful. And you can't. And my father said to me when I discovered this way of being, and I explained it to him, I said, my life is not about success. It's about contribution. And he said, but if your life is about contribution, why would you work? And I said, it's not a contribution to do a shoddy performance

of a Beto from symphony or Marla symphony. No, you have to work even more. in order for it to be, or you're drawn to work more. The desire to make the contribution as great and as memorable and as beautiful as possible draws you to work more and more. And I could be accused of being obsessive, I suppose, of being... I don't have any hobbies. You know, I don't play golf, and I'm going to go on doing what I do until I die. I'm not going to retire and sit around.

and what would I do? The things that I do are endlessly challenging and fascinating. And so I suppose that works. And of course, I'm very lucky because I'm surrounded by young people. And so their excitement and their energy and their curiosity is so invigorating. I'd argue that they're just trying to keep up with you, but that's just me. At this stage of your life, one of the questions that we always hear people want us to ask is, now that you're 80, what would you tell yourself when you were 20? So what is the advice you would have given to the younger version of yourself, Ben?

Well, I'll tell you something very interesting. There's a lovely story which my father used to tell. You notice I mentioned my father quite a lot because he was a huge influence. He told a story about a man who goes to the rabbi and says, Rabbi, you told us a prayer, something with praise. And the rabbi said, yes, it goes like this. When you have good news, you thank the Lord, and when you have bad news, you praise the Lord. Oh, yes, that's right, says the man. But rabbi, how do you know which is the good news and which is the bad news? So the rabbi says, you're wise, my son. So just to be on the safe side, always thank the Lord. So I would say that if I'd known what I now know, if things, happened and many did in my life that I thought at the time were terrible. I was fired from my

orchestra, for instance, after seven years the board fired me. Well, I was very upset, except the whole orchestra resigned and we started the boss and fell in mind. So who knows what is the good news. And even, you know, if we were really smart, which of course we're not, whatever happened, we would thank the Lord. So the girlfriend comes and says, I'm leaving you. Oh, great, what's next? Is the reaction. We don't do that because we think that we can identify with clarity that things that happen are either good or bad, but we really don't know what's going to happen. And I've had two wonderful marriages and two beautiful divorces, and I'm extremely happy with both as I look back.

So I think if I'd known that when I was 20, I would have saved myself a lot of, you know, upset. Heartache and trouble. Heartache and so on. So, of course, heartache is great. Very important to be, I do. Because if you don't, my teacher used to say, great cellist Cacito used to say,

you cannot play great music until your heart has been broken. So I say, let's get on. More broken hearts, please. Let's get on with it. That's pretty good. But there's that. You were a sick puppy, Ben. Okay, you've mentioned your dad a lot.

And I read this about you this week. You said the best review I ever got was not from a music critic, but from my father. He was 94 years old at the time and completely blind. He attended a master class I gave in London and sat there in his wheelchair for about three hours. When it was over, I went to speak with him. He lifted up his finger in his characteristic way and said, I see that you are actually a member of the healing profession. It seemed to me the highest accolade.

What does that mean to you that story? Well, because I find that very moving, that thought, that he understood that the world I was serving was not the world of success or in influence or fame or wealth, but the world of contribution, the world of healing. And that, of course, it meant the world to me that he understood that and he valued it. And I don't think there's any higher accolade you can give a musician than to say that you're a member of the healing profession. So it's a beautiful, it was a beautiful moment, you know, and true. We're so obsessed by wealth and fame and power.

Those are the three things that everybody, and of course we've set up the world in a way to ensure success in those areas. You know, the schools are set up that way with their grades and the competitions and everybody's on a ladder trying to get up and either to get rich or to get more famous or to get more influence. and sometimes all three. And in the world of possibility, none of those things matter at all. What matters is the shining eyes.

How many shining eyes do we have around us? And if we have shining eyes around us, all the other things take care of themselves. I was thinking there's a billion ways we could close this, but I felt that there would be none more fitting than you choosing a piece of classical music for our audience to hear. and for you to explain what we're about to hear

and why it matters so much to you. So any piece in your repertoire, what would you like them to hear and then set it up for us? Well, I would turn to Beethoven because although I love many, many, many composers and many great works, there's something about Beethoven in the end

that overarches everybody because of the universal message. I mean Bach is as great as Beethoven and Mozart is as great as Beethoven for all I know. There may be greater. But Beethoven had a message for humanity, and he included everybody in that vision. He was deaf. He was cut off from the world. He had no female relationships.

He had no companion real companionship. And he was deaf. He was a musician. It was cut off from the world. And yet he wrote the most triumphant, most... optimistic music that has ever been written and it is like a beacon. It teaches us that whatever the struggle, whatever the despair, whatever the horror that we experience, there's always a pathway to triumph. So I would say it would have to be the 9th Symphony or the 5th Symphony. I've just

done a recording of the 9th Symphony, which is a pinnacle experience for me of my life. But I think maybe the final movement of the Fifth Symphony it expresses a kind of joy, a kind of inclusiveness, a kinds of overwhelming triumph of being human that is irresistible. I dare anybody to listen to this music and stay depressed or self-absorbed or sad. Here we go, conducted by the inimitable.

Ben Zander, here is, the final movement of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony. There is so much power and energy and vitality, but obviously also possibility in the way that Benjamin Zander chooses to look at the world. And we're going to be putting the link to the entire recording of the closer of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony in the show notes if you want to go listen to that. Also, many of you know, and he talked about this in the conversation, he's going to be there with us in Orlando for Entree Leadership Summit this May.

and y'all, I am so beyond pumped for this session. We've heard from so many people that the opportunity to sit in a live audience when he gives his talk, I've heard from people saying that it is one of the most incredible things they've been a part of. I know so many of you podcast listeners are already planning to be there. We still have some seats left and there's a special deal going on just for podcast listeners right now. So if you text Summit 2020 to Summit 20-20 to 33-44-4, you're going to be able to save a to $700 on the ticket price. That's Summit 20-20 to 33444 to get more information about everything going on at Entree Leadership Summit this year and also to save up to $700 on your ticket.

But make sure you text that in before December 31st because that's when that deal is going to end. Well, I hope you enjoyed this episode, the Entree Leadership podcast. If you did, please give us a five-star review and tell your friends to subscribe. For a chance to win our $25 Amazon gift card, you can review. this episode by clicking the link that's in the show notes. And be sure to follow us on social media at Entree Leadership. This episode was produced by Tim Hull, and it was edited and mixed by Will Rudder. I'm Alex Judd, and on behalf of the entire Entree Leadership team, thanks for listening. We'll talk with you again very soon. If you enjoy this podcast, you should check out other great

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