EntreLeadership - #361: The Generosity of Scars with Scott Mann

Episode Date: February 10, 2020

As a United States Army Green Beret, Scott Mann traveled to some of the most dangerous places on Earth. And in each of those high-stakes situations, he discovered we all—regardless of religion or ethnicity—have one thing in common: struggle. It’s that universal experience, what he refers to as our scars, that enable us to forge real human connections—but only if we’re willing to share them. Tune in to hear Scott explain why doing so is the key to building an engaged team and a unified culture.   entreleadership.com/podcast Scott Mann's website Scott Mann's TED talk on Rooftop Leadership Scott Mann's TED talk on Generosity of Scars Scott Mann's play Last Out Relationship Economics by David Nour Story Proof by Kendall Haven Breathe by Dr. Belisa Vranich The Book of Beautiful Questions by Warren Berger Theodore Roosevelt’s speech: The Man in the Arena 5 Habits that Kill Team Unity Review this episode for a chance to win a $25 Amazon gift card   Want expert help with your business question? Call 844-944-1070 and leave a message or send an email to [e-mail]. You could be featured on a future podcast episode! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A new study reports that 46% of American adults say they are sometimes or always feeling lonely. It's being called the loneliness epidemic, and we would be remiss as leaders to not believe that this is affecting people in the workplace. It's making people more disinterested, disunified, and disconnected than at any point in American history. From the Ramsey Network, this is the Entree Leadership podcast where we help business leaders grow themselves, their teams, and their profits. I'm your host Alex Judd, and today our conversation is with Scott Mann. He's a retired Green Beret who is waging war against the loneliness epidemic by focusing on an answer that's as old as time itself, human connection. And as with most lessons of enduring value, this is one that Scott didn't learn in a textbook or in a classroom. It's one that he learned through pain,

through suffering and through his own personal experience of the rock bottom. Yeah, I was, you know, standing in a closet is where I found myself at my lowest moment coming out of the military, holding a loaded 45 pistol in my right hand and no intention to coming out of their alive. I had, you know, I stood there, wondered how in that heck I'd got to that point. You know, just a few years earlier, I had been a green beret, a career green beret at the top of my game. I had operated in at-risk high-stakes places around the world like Colombia and Afghanistan and had led, you know, various strategic missions. And just in a short period of time, just a couple of, you know, years, I had spiraled into this place where I was devoid of purpose. My mood swings were so unpredictable that my wife and three sons would just literally. get up and leave any room that I walked into in my house. You know, I was starting to really question

my relevance on this earth that I had run my course, you know, my contributions were done, and my time was over. There was just nothing left for me to give. The survivor's guilt had really come through strong, the post-traumatic stress, all the things that I had pushed down for years. Once I got to this place where I was disconnected from my purpose and really struggling, then it came on full force. And I just didn't know what to do with it. I had become severely isolated from my peers. And all of those factors, you know, created a very, very nasty cocktail.

And so it sounds like you were in a place where you had literally lost hope for the future. Yeah, I think that's accurate. I had lost hope. And, you know, for a special operator, we pride ourselves at playing at the highest level and being, you know, super relevant to strategic situations. And I just couldn't see that relevance anymore. and had it not been for the voice of my middle son Cooper out in the hallway, I heard his voice talking. He had come home from school and it just totally jarred me and shocked me. You know, I looked down at that pistol and I was just just so ashamed.

And so just at the bottom of the barrel when I saw that. And so I shuffled out of the closet, but I still wasn't where I needed to be. I mean, there were many more moments like that that followed. But that's the moment that sticks out in my mind, you know, as a point where, And really, I'll be honest with you, I never told that story. I did it at a TED talk just recently. Yeah. I had never talked about it.

I had not talked to my wife about it, had not talked to my kids about it, because I had moved on. I had found it was actually sharing that story with a buddy who was considering suicide himself. We'd served in combat together. So he told you this? He did. We were at a conference for helping veterans transition, and we pulled off to a corner and we were talking. And he made it very clear that he was close to checking out. He told you that, and at that point, is that when you shared your story?

It is. That's the first time I had ever shared that story. And when I did, you know, the color came back into his face. I could see that he realized that he was not isolated. And in that moment, for just a moment, I got a glimpse of what storytelling, you know, or what I call being generous with your scars can do if you're doing it in the service of others. And it was just a moment. But I felt connected. And there was something to that. And so I just kind of kept pulling that thread. for the next few years. I started pursuing storytelling and sharing lessons from my past in the military that were not necessarily pleasant lessons, but lessons where I had learned, lessons where I had changed, lessons that could serve other people, and I used storytelling to do it. And it really pulled me out of that dark place until finally just this past year, I made the decision to share that story about the closet and that sole reason, Alex, is because I have lost so many friends to suicide in the last few years who were high performers. Navy SEALs, Green Berets.

And I thought, you know what, if I can share my story about that dark place I was and it can help someone step into the sunlight, let's do it, you know. I love that specific point where you tell your friend the story of where you had been and you describe it as his eyes lighting up. Because it's like we've got two guys sitting in a corner of a conference telling each other that they've both had thoughts about ending their life. I would not think that that moment is when people's eyes start to light up, but it sounds like something happens internally in a person's heart and soul that I know the word you used was connection that creates a connection. Absolutely. You know, one of my major things that I teach as a former Green Beret in leadership around human connection is there certain things that draw us together, right? Whether you're sitting down with a teammate from the military or whether you're sitting across from a client or you're talking to your team. teenager, struggle is a universal singular that binds us. I don't care what your religion is,

what your ethnicity is, where you come from, we are all creatures of struggle. And if we have the courage to reach down and lead with our scars, you know, the things that scuff us up in our life, and we share those in the service of other people, it accelerates trust, it accelerates connection, and it makes you relatable to the people you serve. And their armor comes down. And, you know, it's one of the most powerful tools that leaders can use today, and almost none of them do. And I love how you use the word scars. So as we kind of dive in to how do we make this practical for people, I'd love for you to tell us, what is your personal definition of a scar as it relates to all of this?

And then how do people start to identify these in their lives? Yeah. So I started speaking and storytelling as I came home, you know, and using stories from my past, brothers I'd served with lessons I'd learned. Did you ever think you would do that? Never. You know, and now I'm acting, you know, and that's, you talk about a midlife crisis. That's right.

You're here, though. I'm telling you. But all of that stuff, you know, do what scares you. I lost so many friends in combat, you know. And I think what they say to me still is, hey, man, do what scares you. Like, don't pull back. Because they gave up so much at such an early point in their life that, you know, I'm still here. I'm still here and I'm still running.

And I think the best way that I can live a life that they'd be proud of is to do what scares me, you know, in a healthy way. Yeah. But it's crazy to think about the fact, like, you've been shot at, Scott, and the thing that scares you is telling a story. It does. But you're being serious right now. It's true. But, you know, there's a reason that most people fear speaking more than death, right? And it's, again, it's go back to human connection.

We are status creatures. We worry about what the other people around us think. it's how we've survived for millennia. And so those things that we feel when we get up in front of people that we feel nervous about and anxiety and our hands are sweating before that sales meeting or that call where we have to get up and give a keynote, those are real physiological symptoms that we feel like we're going to die, right? It's fight, flight, or freeze.

The sympathetic nervous system is kicking in. And it's the same things you feel in combat. It's the same symptoms, right? And it's because we don't want to get voted off the island. So I started pursuing that. it scared me. I loved the way it felt. It had that familiar feel to run admissions, you know. And so speaking to other rooms and groups of people and storytelling in particular just really lit me up. I did a talk called rooftop leadership, which really talks about how green berets go into these rough places and they help villages go to the rooftop and fight back. And how does that work? It was a TED talk. And when I got invited a few years just recently to go back and talk about where the TED speakers are now, I told this story of scars, generosity of scars, because I I wanted people to understand that for me, my rocket fuel in this world is it is that. It is tapping into the struggle and leading with that struggle.

And that's how I define a scar. A scar, you know, Webster and Google define a scar as like a superficial mark on the skin. I define a scar as a mark on the soul, you know, that has really scuffed us up. But it has the potential to bind us to other people. So are scars universal? Absolutely. They are absolutely universal. You won't find anyone that hasn't been scuffed up, that hasn't incurred those internal scars in their life. It's just part of living. But what happens is we live in a society where we are conditioned to put those things away, push those things down. Do not show those scars. You know, do the selfie. Hey, look at me. Look at what I've done. Look at what I've accomplished. In these five easy steps, you can do this. People are so tired of that. It's unwatchable. We're already in a low trust society. So if we're not willing to lead with our scars and be authentic in how we communicate where we've been in our life. It's very

hard for people to follow where we're going. I want to get into some about how all of this affects the workplace, but before we go there, I'd like to dive a little bit into the personal work that an individual has to do, because it is work to identify what these things are and then actually start to own them, because it sounds like that was a process for you. Absolutely. I would walk it back to, for my personal journey, it was what I learned in the journey to become a green beret and serve as a green beret, where I learned the true elements of having a deep impact through better human connection. You know, like that is my leadership philosophy in this day and age. I think we all need to play a game bigger than ourselves. You know, when we serve a purpose bigger than ourselves, you know, you can walk through this headquarters and you can see the origins of.

of a man who's done that. Yeah. The universe rewards it, right? And you are able to do great good in this world, but you've got to train. You've got to build skills that allow you to do that. Most of those are around human connection, you know. And so as a young kid, I wanted to be a green beret since I was 14 growing up in a little log in town in Arkansas.

And when I got in, I learned quickly how important it is to make human connections in really tough, dangerous situations, how you connect to other people. And the skills sets you have for relationship building and rapport is everything. It's how we've stayed alive for thousands of years. So, you know, for me, it was building skills around connection and taking that to the next level. And this mindset that you value how you connect to other people. So there's something in there in that I think a lot of the people that listen to this podcast and certainly a lot of the business owners and leaders that we work with every day,

they would describe themselves as achievement-oriented people, right? And so they're climbing the ladder. They're moving forward, right? They're the special ops of the marketplace in many ways, right? And they will find themselves in a position where they can check all the boxes of human connection. And they look up and they have 5,000 friends and 5,000 followers, but there's no one that they're actually connected to. They're deeply lonely. And I think a piece of it is in exactly what you're saying in that they never actually showed any of their imperfections.

They just gave people this mirage. So how did you find the courage to say, like, I'm going to start sharing my actual self and not just this facade or this mask? Yeah, you know, I think the best way to unpack that because it's true. And society has, you know, has evolved in such a way that, you know, what we call connections are not real connections. And for a business owner or any leader in modern society today, we have to be careful about how we accept society's definition of human connection. Ooh, that's good. You know, I don't think it's what we're looking for. And I don't think at the end of our life when we take that last breath, that it's going to be a full breath if we're not careful.

So we've got to define ourselves what human connection really is because it's that, you know, it's social capital. It's the stuff we use to really get things done in this world. And it's still just as relevant as it was 250,000 years ago. You know, these iPhone dopamine dispensers have only been around about 11 years. That's right. Right. So our bodies are still wired for human connection. We are meaning seeking emotional social creatures, regardless of.

Regardless of religion, regardless of ethnicity, people still seek purpose. They act on emotion, even when they tell you they're not. And we are social. We are wired to connect with other humans. And if you're not considering that and how you lead yourself and your people, you're actually leaving value on the table, right? So we've got to get deeper on human connection. I would not say I had courage in that sense.

You know, Steve Pressfield's definition of courage, courage is not, you know, the absence of fear. It's the presence of love. right it's love for yourself love for your mission love for your fellow human on your right and your left that's good you care about something else so much that you're going to do whatever it takes and i've interviewed dozens of warriors coming off the battlefield for valor they all say the same thing i just didn't want to let my teammates down that's courage right i mean in its truest definition but society doesn't tell us that society tells us it's hands on hips this is what we're doing this is current that's not it yeah you're still afraid you know i tell my boys all the time. You know, courage means doing what you have to do even though you're afraid. What I found, though, was when we, you know, when we were working in Afghanistan, where I really saw the importance of human connection at that deep, visceral level, was in 2010, we were losing

the war. There were more Taliban in the rural areas than when we started, right? And we were already talking about getting out of the country, and we needed a new plan. So a handful of us were selected as green berets to put a strategy together to get back into these villages, get back to our roots. Kind of a magnificent seven meets Lawrence of Arabia, right? And move into these communities and help Afghans fight back on their own, these tribes. But they had no trust in each other. They'd been at war for 40 years.

They had no trust in us, you know? And so how do you do that? How do you go into a community that can't even trust itself? And so what we did was we would pull them into the courtyard. We'd make them three promises. One, if you don't want us here, we'll leave. Two, if you work with us, it's going to get harder before it gets easier. And three,

when the Taliban come, we're going up on this roof and we're going to fight them, whether you do or not. You know, and if you think about those promises, those are the same kind of things. I think we need to make the people that we serve. But I love this, too, because it's a brand of leadership that is remarkably authentic and real. And I think that's embedded in everything you're talking about is that the leader has to own who they are, their story, their background. And then they have to bring that whole person to what they're doing every single day. 100%. So what would be the advice that you give the business owner to say, like, you've got to start moving down this track if your people are actually going to be connected to you? Well, so, you know, ultimately what I would say is I call it rooftop leadership. We would go, sure enough, the attacks would come within a few hours. We would go up on those rooftops and we would fight by ourselves while the Afghan stayed down below. And then after a few weeks of seeing us do that and pulling down our wounded and our dead off those ladders, one farmer fighting back all of a sudden, then another farmer.

than another. And within two to three weeks from that moment, every rooftop in the village is pouring rifle fire into the source of the attack, breaking it off the way they used to do. And all of them did that, not because they had to do it, but because they chose to do it. We had made human connections with these people. We had built relationships, and we did what we said we were going to do even when they didn't follow. And I think for today's business leader, that we're operating in similar low-trust environments. People are scared. People are skeptical. People are disingen. People are disengaged and distracted. How do you lead them? You have to know who you are. You have to know what you stand for and you have to be willing to go up on that rooftop by yourself and endure all the

stuff that comes your way until they decide to follow. And that is the hardest thing I think a leader has to do is that loneliness of command, that loneliness of execution when no one else follows you in those initial moments. Well, and if you're actually going to do something new and different, you said people died, right? And thankfully, none of our business owners are in that type of environment, but it's not going to be perfect, right? And I think that word vulnerability is really popular right now. Yeah, it is. And there's a lot of positive that comes with that. What I've seen is that there can also be negative in that I've seen business owners make sure they say, okay, I need to make sure I'm vulnerable. So I'm going to polish up this story about how I once made a mistake and make

it and make it good, and everyone's going to laugh and smile about it. And then we're going to move forward. But that's not what you're talking about. No, it's not. Can I offer an alternate word to vulnerability? Let's hear it. Now, so I teach. I teach. at the Green Berets schoolhouse, I teach Green Berets who are going into these rough villages, how to make human connections that are life and death, right? And I also teach business leaders the similar approach. What I say to Green Berets is, connect like your life depends on it, because it does. What I say to business leaders, connect like your livelihood depends on it, because it does, because we're both meaning-seeking emotional social creatures. Vulnerability is, in my opinion,

is a useful word, but I think it's overdone. And I think in many ways, like you said, if you don't know what you're doing with that word, you can stick your jugular out and get it cut. That's right. Or you can use it as a tactic. Yes, which is manipulative. It becomes manipulative. And, you know, because we are creatures of reciprocity, we're social creatures. And so if you do that and you manipulate in a sales move or something like that by being overly vulnerable to get something, people will sniff you out. I suggest the word relatability. Rather than thinking about am I vulnerable, ask yourself, am I relatable?

Right. Because, for example, and that takes us right back to scars. If you're willing to tap into your journey and share the things in your life that scuffed you up in the service of other human beings. So in other words, I talk about my bout with suicide in a closet, right, with a friend of mine who has gone through, you know, a similar thing, then he sees that he's not isolated. We listen autobiographically to storytellers. If I talk about my father's battle with cancer, you may be thinking about your sister's struggle with cancer or your own,

or I hope I don't get cancer. We fill in the gaps. Yes. So just substitute the word relatability. Am I relatable to my kids right now? Am I relatable to my prospect right now? Am I relatable to my employees right now? In other words, am I taking the body armor off?

And am I really sharing my journey where I've been, where I am, and where I'm going in an authentic way in the service of others? That's fascinating. Dave Ramsey, our founder and CEO, right? He's on the radio daily. He talks to 16 million people a week. And he is now the CEO of a $200 million company that he built from the ground up. It's crazy. But the people that call him are people that are broken in debt a lot of the times.

And the reason why, though, is because he shares the story of when he was broken in debt. You know, right where he's been, he is a storyteller of the highest order. And I will tell you right now, no matter how sophisticated we think we are in this world, human nature is like an iceberg. 20% is above the water line and it's what we see every day. It's the transactional. It's the PowerPoint. It's the bullet points. It's the likes on Facebook, right?

But 80% of human nature is 250,000 years old and it's below the waterline. It is our primal behavior. It's our status behavior. It's human connection. It's storytelling, active listening, being physically present, relationships before transactions. It's getting back to our nature. The reason that Dave, I think, because I grew up listening to him as a young lieutenant, and he helped me get in a good place.

That's awesome. But the reason that he's still relevant today is because he hasn't forgotten his nature. He stays true to his nature. If you listen to him when he engages people, this is another thing you can do on relatability. We don't have to talk all the time. Often the stories we ask to hear are much better than the stories we tell. And I learned this in the Afghan villages. If we ask thoughtful, open-ended questions of the people we serve that allow them to respond in story, we're at the highest level of services leaders.

What's an example of a thoughtful open-ended question that allows people to respond in story? So, for example, we just did the play, our play last out. in Santa Barbara, California. And it's a really powerful play about the war. So we have a lot of veterans that come in there, and they're pretty shook up after the play. They're seeing a part of their lives that's been unpacked that they had pushed down.

So one of the things that I trained my people on the team is when you walk around is ask someone, hey, let me ask you, do you mind if I ask you a question? What was the most impactful part of the evening that really landed on your chest? What really stuck with you tonight? And then just let them talk, you know, for our teenagers, right? So I always ask my boys, because you know how teenagers are.

They don't, they, you know, if you start asking them questions, they're like, oh, dad's on my case again. So I'll say, hey, what really annoyed you today? Who really kicked you off? And they'll get a big grin on their face and they'll start talking. Everyone's got an answer to that question. Right. And then their emotional temperature comes down and now you're getting them ready to listen. Think about your grandparents.

They were great at asking thoughtful, open-ended questions that allowed the other party to respond to narrative. That's another way of being relatable, right? is another way to just make a human connection that brings them closer to you. So, you know, these are all things that I learned as a green beret and that I teach now on rooftop leadership that you can accelerate trust, you can accelerate connection as a business leader just by getting back to your nature of old school human connection. It sounds like that doesn't just occur in a meeting context. That occurs a lot of times one-on-one.

It does. It doesn't have to be in a big room. In fact, you know, some of the best connections, Alex, are made in the moments in between. What I believe in terms of, if a relationship is the asset, David Nore in his book, Relationship Economics says that relationships are the business leader's greatest off-book asset. That's fascinating. Yeah. And I assume you agree with that. I 100% agree with that. Now, if you think about it, where have your best transactions come from? Where have your best deals come from? Are they the one-offs? Or are they the people that you built deep relationships with that, you know,

you continue to transactions continue to spend off of over time because there's reciprocity and loyalty. This hasn't changed in a couple hundred thousand years. This is still the best way to approach transactions is to build deep relationships. The relationship as the asset for a business, relationships should be a team sport. Everyone is a relationship manager. From the sales leader, all the way down to the receptionist, everyone should be involved in the relationship. Okay. So that's really good. I want to stop you right there because you just made me think, As you were talking about that, you made me think about a business owner that I was talking to the other day. And he was remarkably open about the status of his office, which I appreciated.

But he essentially said he's like, I've just gotten around all this entree leadership stuff. And I realized we're not really a team at all. We're just individuals that happen to work in the same building. And he said, everyone is isolated. We don't really talk about our homes. No one knows what people's spouses names are. We never share a meal together. Like they are disconnected, right?

that they are isolated, and it's a culture of disconnection, right? Because it's been perpetuated for over 10 years now. And so he just said, what do I do? So I'm going to let you answer that question because I feel like you're way more equipped. How do you start to turn the tide on that? That's a great question. And the good news to him is, first of all, congratulations to him for figuring that out. Because most business teams that I see, they don't.

You know, they think that by just prescribing down to their people. And Jock talked a little bit about this, like telling people top down who you are, that doesn't work. Daniel Coyle says the three things a high-performing culture must have, psychological safety, human connection, and a shared vision. Right. So those three, and I agree with that, I think those three things must be in place for a high-performing team. What I would tell him is this. Get back to your nature.

Get back to who you are. Talk to your people. Get your people connected to each other at a human level first. Then start figuring out who you are as a business. Get out of the office. Go do a half-day off-site. Go to a park with picnic. tables and a fire pit and ask your people these two questions. Why do you show up and do what you do

every day at our business and where does that come from in your life? Then build a fire, let everyone go around the horn and share that with each other. The act of sharing that will make you more relatable. It will accelerate trust through storytelling. Everyone will get a better sense of where all their teammates are. And then that business owner should go last. He should ask permission to tell his story then and share with them why he created that company or why he leads to that company or where it comes from in his life. When that's all said and done, that team will then be ready to understand each other better and move towards who they are as a business. That is a powerful model. I can see business owners getting uncomfortable hearing you say that. Like it's, I mean,

that is scary because it feels awkward. It feels uncomfortable. It feels uncomfortable. It feels like, well, I don't know if people are going to go for it. Like, there may be a moment where I ask a question and it's just dead silent around that fire. How do you respond to that? I just respond to it. You need to be honest with yourself about what you want because he identified to this to himself that, look, we're not a team. We're a bunch of individuals. And that's exactly what we have in America today.

We have the lowest trust in American history. That's true. 77% according to Gallup say the country is divided. Two-thirds of Americans say they don't trust their neighbor. from one-third in 1972, right? So we have an epic erosion of trust in our society today. And it manifests with our kids on the school bus. It manifests in our communities. There's a book by Robert Putnam called Bowling Alone that basically shows how we've gone from front porches to privacy fences. And so we are a bunch of individuals in many ways. So if you want a team, if you truly want a team, and you really want to build

a culture that's connected, there's only one way through that. And that's recognizing that we're meaning-seeking emotional, social creatures. And leadership is uncomfortable. Leadership is personal. And you've got to make yourself relatable to the people you lead. And they have to be able to relate to you and you have to them. And if there's not that connection, you don't have a team. You have a bunch of individuals. And there's just one way through it. And it's that human connection. And it is uncomfortable. Alex, you're right. But even in combat, you know, when I led men in combat, there were a lot of times that I felt super uncomfortable, you know, and I'm not going to sit there and have like some kind of therapy session with my guys. But we had to take the armor off and we had to have that

sense of connection. We had to be relatable to each other or we wouldn't have survived. And I think the same is true for teams today. Leaders have to set the example for that. So it's funny because it's one of those things that I feel like we know it when we see it done right and we also really know it when we see it done wrong. And it's and we've seen those people that it's like, you're just, you're sharing everything right now and this is stuff that you haven't worked through and this is not good. So how do you define like, because we are in an office and we do need to at the same time inspire confidence, but we also want to be human and we want to be connected. How do you weigh that balance? You know, it's more art than science in many ways.

But what I would often say is, you know, if you think about those questions that I just asked, why do you show up and lead your people, where does that come from in your life? I just did that same thing with a Fortune 100 company and the president of this commercial bank. We did that with his senior leadership team and him, right? He shared with me, it really got to him. It was about his mom's battle with mental illness in high school, and she tried to take her life. And it influenced him so much through college that he decided that he would never let her past drive his future. And so he started over-indexing as an over-achiever and as a banker. He just was just to the extreme on his career path because he wanted to set a career for himself that wasn't her past.

And in doing that, he realized that he had maybe stepped on some people. He came across. It's hard to understand. He shared that in all hands. He shared that in an all hands meeting with his leaders from VP all the way up, right? It wasn't a dumping session or a therapy session. It was just the same kind of talk I gave when I was standing in that closet. And he told it because he wanted the people he served to understand.

where he comes from and why he leads the way he leads. All associate engagement scores have gone up nine points. This was a year and a half ago, and they're still up there, right? People have come out of the woodwork to say, that happened with my mom. The connections he has with his teammates now down at the junior associate level are off the chain. He's just relatable to his people. The best leaders I've ever served with, they share their path. You know, Dave Ramsey has upstairs, you know, an old car sticking out of the wall.

It says don't pull back from your past. It's because you're humble beginnings. He used to sell books from a Buick. So we've got a Buick upstairs. I'm sure, to this day, that's probably still uncomfortable to talk about because that was a time that was not easy. But you do that in the service of others and the universe rewards it. I'm curious to know from you personally, how do you continue to stay emotionally connected to what you've been through? Because that's one of the things that I admire about, Dave, is he will still have tears in his eyes talking about the experience of declaring bankruptcy.

And I know that that emotional connection is what powers his resiliency today to continue on 25 years later. So how do you stay connected? So again, I'm going to go back to the premise of rooftop leadership and what I teach as a Green Beret. We are meaning seeking emotional social creatures. We are emotional. We operate off emotion. Alan Weiss, the consultant, he says, logic makes people think, but emotion makes people act. the limbic brain, you know, that makes the big decision, it doesn't even understand language,

but it certainly operates off emotion. So I think, first of all, is recognizing that we are emotional creatures. It doesn't mean that you want to get all emotional in front of your people. I'm not saying that, but we have to have access to our own emotions, and we have to recognize that emotions are going to show up in the other party. If you go into a deal or a negotiation and you don't allow for the emotional temperature of the other party, you are leaving value on the table. You are not the most relevant person in the room. You are diluted to some degree because the other party is going to be emotional. And if you don't

get their emotional temperature down to a point where they're ready to hear you, then you know, you're not relevant. So I would say there's different ways to do it, but getting below the waterline, asking thoughtful, open-ended questions, active listening, breathing, being present. Not many people are present anymore. How many of us have been in a conversation? conversation and we're thinking about what we're going to say next instead of listening to what the other person is saying. So true. Yeah. So all of those things, just being present, active listening, and having good narrative competence, the ability to do storytelling are the three primary ways you can stay connected to your emotions, whether it's in a deal or whether it's talking to your teenager. I would say it's one of the biggest questions we get and one of the biggest pain points we see small business owners, five to 20 team members face, is I just want. one a team of people that cares about this thing as much as I do. And it sounds like what you're saying

is really at the core of that. I think that's a universal desire for a leader. And the reality is there's a price to be paid for that. Are you willing to pay that price? Are you willing to take the armor off and give them a sense of who you are? Give them a sense of where you've been. Give them a sense of what you stand for. Right. And if you are, then they'll follow you. If you don't, then you know, it's transactional. You'll get what you pay for. They'll follow you a little. But when things get hard and the storm clouds roll in and the market tanks and sales go down, they're not coming.

They're not coming because we are meaning seeking emotional social creatures. I've seen villagers in the most trust depleted places on earth who had different religions, different points of view, different languages, go up on rooftops and literally put themselves at harm's way. for me. And I do the same for them. And the reason is because there was a relationship that was below the surface. There was a connection that had been built when the sun was shining, right? We build trust when risk is low, and then we leverage it when the stakes go up. Ooh, that's powerful. Build trust when risk is low and then leverage that trust when the stakes go up. You have to because that's the way humans operate, right? If you, it's, okay, so let's say you and I, I'm in need of something from my business. Things are starting to go south from my business and you have what I need. And I come up and I'm

like, hey, Alice, what's up, buddy? What's going on? Hey, listen, man, you know, I need, and you know it's common. You smell it a mile away. Right, but this is what you're about to ask for something. That's right. And this is what we do in this transactional world, whether it's with our employees, whether it's with our spouse, whether it's with a client. We go to them when we need something. Instead of building the relationship is the asset. We build trust when risk is low. And we use old school interpersonal. skills, emotional payments. We put their, put their goals before yours. You know, it costs you nothing. You know, get clear on what their goals are, what their objectives are. The best negotiators do that. Yes. And they do it when nobody's looking. They build because they know the relationships, the asset.

And then that asset will keep spending off transactions for the rest of your life. I can think of those people in our organization specifically, right? We have an organization of 900 people now. And it's like you have to get other people on board in order to get anything, meaningful done. It's just part of the reality. And it's like the people that win in that arena are the ones that the relationships are already established before they ever have to ask for something. You got it. But the people that I really trust are the ones that it's not like they're doing that because they know, oh, one day I'm going to ask you for something. They're just doing it because it's the right thing to do. Exactly. Exactly. And that's where another area I think for leaders is

establishing a vision that is bigger than both of us. Establishing a vision that is bigger than anyone in individual in the organization. You know, as businesses grow, as organizations grow, I think the biggest threat we face in a low trust distracted society is not failure. It's catastrophic success. You know, we start to grow so fast that we don't have a sense of who we are and we're not fully connected as a team and the relationships are not in place. And then it starts to come off the rails.

So what do you do? You build that team before the success comes. You get off the grid. You go to the fire pit. You build the relationship. You get a sense of who we are as people, and you have that human connection first, and that becomes the asset, right? And then from that you build who you are as an organization. And that vision, it needs to be in the form of a narrative.

It needs to be informed by everybody on the team. And it needs to be the thing that unifies you above your own individual needs. Because if you don't, we're tribal creatures. And when we get scared, what happens is we go into in groups and outgroups. You see it in America today. Oh, absolutely. You see, that is what is happening right now. That's exactly what's that.

Well, guess what? That's tribal behavior. I've seen it in every country I've ever served in. What makes America so unique is we actually have a thing called bridging trust in this country where we bridge and trust beyond our own in group. That's very rare. You know, most countries around the world, they have bonding trust where you only trust the people in your in group because they look like you. Because there's not enough resources and we're scared. And that's what mammals do.

We hang with our pack. But if you have a bridging trust environment where the vision is bigger than the groups, now you got something. But man, that's straight up leadership. Yes, because that does not occur naturally. Oh, no. So, okay, so we know we need to rally people around a common vision. That is a core leadership responsibility.

What is step one of defining that compelling vision? How do you go about actually practically doing that? Yeah, you know, again, I think you look at your past. I think for a leader who's wanting to get their vision, vision out there. You got to look at where you've been. You got to look at where you've been. I tell leaders all the time when I'm coaching them on creating their vision and how they're going to communicate that to their people. It really should be through story and go back in your life and find a pivotal moment in your life where you got scuffed up. You're turning scars again.

I'm telling you. You go back to that, find that moment, that pivotal moment in your life. And there may be more than one, but pick the one that just comes to you the quickest and just right about that moment, right about that moment that, and it should be a moment that really challenged you. And the challenges may have come internally. They may have come externally, both, but right about that moment. And then talk about how you changed and what you learned. And in that, I guarantee you, you will find a sense of who you are and what you're building. And I think if you put that story together and you culminate it with, this is what we're building. They're coming.

That's so fascinating because I think about, again, Dave's story, this place was built because he went broke. And now we kind of have this redefined vision and redefined rally cry around the organization of how we are going to change the toxic money culture in America. We're going to take it down. That vision would not hold nearly as much weight if it weren't for the story that it came from. It has. Look, we are story animals. We are story creatures. We have been for since we've been around.

And we operate through story. In fact, there's recent data that shows that the human brain actually processes the world around it, raw data. And this is Dr. Kendall Haven in his book, Story Proof, through story. We use narrative to make sense of the world. We used to think that, like, if I showed you a PowerPoint deck or a spreadsheet of financials, that you would look at those numbers and you would just do abstract. No, you actually tell yourself a story first, then, you know, the cognitive problem. processing follows. So what does that mean? If you use story to communicate to your listener,

your story will pass through the listener's brain and it will land on them, not their own story. Now, think about that. Right. So if you're communicating your vision through story, and again, that's, yes, that is why Dave and so many other relevant leaders are able to move people. We respond to story. We are moved by story. Think about the effect that it has. If you can get good with, I call it narrative competence. Yeah. Business leaders, need to be able to tell stories to themselves, to their people, inside the business, and outside the business. You should be the storyteller in chief. So we have a lot of people that listen to this podcast that would describe themselves as accidental CEOs. It's like they looked up one day and it's like

there's 10 people following me. I just had an idea that I was passionate about that happened and people would pay for it. And now I've got a team. And now apparently I'm supposed to be the chief storytelling officer. And they're like, that's not me. That's not who I am. First question is, Is it possible for everyone to get there? And second question is, if so, what are the steps to get there? Okay. No, that's a great question. And again, I think it's good news.

That's been my whole life. My whole life has been like, how in the heck did I get here? You know, I look around and I just, I'm not, you know, it just, it surprises me. And now you are literally storytelling for a living. I am storytelling for a living to include a really powerful play, you know. And what I believe is that if we serve a purpose bigger than ourselves, if we really approach leadership in this world, the way I look at leadership is this. At the end of my life, when my father-in-law had been passed, I watched him take his last breath and it was a really full

breath. And I could feel all the years lived in that man's life. I've held men in my arms and their final breaths that were shallow breaths and I've seen the look in their eyes to realize they didn't live the life that they wanted to live. And it's a different breath. And for me, that's how I'm living my life. I'm going to have a full breath at the end of my life. That's it. That's my metric. So I can only speak to people who believe that. If you, you believe that, then yes, it is absolutely possible that you can achieve a level of leadership that will move people to do great things. But you're going to be surprised the rest of your life. You're never going to feel like you belong. You're never going to feel like you should be here,

right? Some of the greatest leaders I've ever met in combat were like, I have no idea how we got that done. And that's okay. That is probably a very relatable statement. That's a relatable statement to me. Like, what am I doing here? We follow reluctant leaders. We follow reluctant leaders. That's okay. But can you take that deep breath in the moment and step into the abyss even though you're afraid? That's the thing. And where we get that is we train.

I believe that we have to train on human connection because human connection will never fail us, even in the darkest moments. If we train on being present, right, our breathwork and how we show up for other people, if we train on active listening and how we really hear people and repurpose what they say, into the narrative and on narrative competence, the ability to tell stories to move people to take action. If you train on those three things, absolutely. I think you can continue to ascend and take people to new heights. What is one exercise for each of those things you recommend people do? So let's start with presence, right? If you're going to lead, you've got to be present. Which is probably harder for the person that's decided to lead because there's always a fire to put out.

Remember that according to Microsoft, the average attention span for an adult human today is eight seconds. That's one second less than a goldfish. And I would say it's probably three seconds for the entrepreneur typically. There's so many distractions, right? Squirrel, squirrel, squirrel, new business idea, squirrel. We got to breathe. We got to breathe. I am a certified breath coach by Dr. Belisa Veronich, and I have found that breath is one of the most important things that a high-performing leader can do.

We've got to be on our breath. Diaphromatic breathing. There's a book called Breathe by Dr. Lisa Veronage, get it, read it, and learn how to do diaphragmatic breathing, expanding your belly on the inhale and squeezing your belly on the exhale. And that alone will put you in a parasympathetic state where you are present across from the person you're doing that sales call with in a way that they will sense it at a semi-conscious level.

It's huge breath. We've got to be able to, and when we get all stressed out, there's so much anxiety our business leaders are dealing with today. We've got to be able to bring ourselves down to a parasympathetic state and be present for our families. Have the awareness to be able to do that. It's all breath. Got to get better at breath. Active listening.

Right now, practice thoughtful, open-ended questions that let the other party respond in narrative. Who do we violate listening with the most? The people we love. We listen the worst to our children and to our spouses. So practice listening more to them. Come up with one thoughtful, open-ended question. to ask your children and to ask your wife and go home and do it. After they pick themselves up off the floor, watch their response.

See the reciprocities in their eyes when they give you an answer. It's not hard. There's a beautiful book by Warren Berger called Thoughtful Questions. Become a questionologist. Get good at asking questions. There's a lot of science today saying that's the leaders who own the room. And then finally, on storytelling, there's a lot of great books out there on storytelling. What I would just say is this.

What Dave has done with storytelling with his story, use the hero's journey, the hero pivotal moment that happens in your life. A struggle ensues, right about the struggle, how you overcame it, what you learned, and how you changed. And put that into a narrative

and let that be your backstory and look for opportunities to share it. And that doesn't have to be a TED talk. It doesn't have to be a video. It could literally be over a cup of coffee just sharing with someone, this is what happened, this is the journey that I went through

and this is where I am. I work with a lot of financial advisors and I say, just take your team to lunch, share your story with them, and watch what happens. And what happens? Oh, the levels of connection. They're like, I had no idea that that happened to you. And it just, it takes, it accelerates trust. And I've seen it in the most dangerous places on earth where I sat down with tribal elders and talked about tobacco farming in western North Carolina. Why?

Because they have to farm the same crappy way that my family has had to farm tobacco. It sucks. right, but we found a connection around that and we could laugh and we didn't talk about Taliban. We didn't talk about ideology. We talked about tobacco farming and we talked about their okra farming and we made a connection and an accelerated trust. And guess what? Now we have an asset.

Now when the time is right and the emotional temperature is down and they're ready to listen, I can talk about Taliban. Okay. So it's so fascinating because we talked about how the owners desperately and deeply want people that care on their team. But then there's also so much data. right now that says that individuals, employees, deeply want to work at a place that they care about. Yes. So it's like we've got all these people that want to care working for someone, and we've got

leaders who want people that care, but for some reason, we're not bridging that gap. Like, there is something going on that's, so in your opinion, what is it that's keeping us from doing that? And how do we actually start to play the role of bridging? Yeah. So, man, well, that's a great question. And that gap is real, right? And remember, well, it starts with this, meaning seeking, emotional social creatures. That's who we are below the surface. Everything above the surface is transactional, fast-paced, selfie. You know, I mean, it's all that stuff.

And we've got to recognize that's a booby prize, right? Real leaders don't get distracted with that stuff. Now, we do have to perform in that world, but we don't make the connections in that world. The connections are below the surface. The connections are, now tell me your wife's name again. Yeah, how's she doing that? How's she liking the new job? Right. We've got to get back to the old school interpersonal skills of human connection.

We've got to get out of the office to do it sometimes. If we're going to do off-sites and team-building exercises, let's do a few less trust falls and rope bridges. And let's get back to human connection. Let's actually get a sense of who our people are, what they value, what they're about. And when you do that, you bring their emotional temperature down, they're ready to listen, and then get them to participate in. where should we be going, right? Let them build their hero's journey story. Let them share it. The more you do that, the more they become invested in you and in each other. And now they're ready to have a conversation about how do we come together as a team? What are we building as a team? You know, you guys have a meeting, what, twice a week with 900 people? Yep, exactly. We do a staff meeting with all 900 people in the organization. Then we do a devotional with all 900 people. Okay, so I travel around the country doing leadership. Do you know how many?

people do that? How many people do that? Like, you're the only organization I've ever seen that puts everybody in the room. But that's what I'm talking about. Yeah. That's exactly what you have to do. Are you willing to do that? And I will tell you, too, what's really interesting, the most meaningful things that happen with regard to those two meetings for me sometimes, sometimes it's something that said by the pastor on stage or by someone that presents at the staff meeting. But a lot of times, the most meaningful moment occurs in the moment when I look in the eyes of the person right next to me, and we just connect on what was said, and we talk about an idea of how that could be leveraged where we work.

Psychological safety, human connection, shared vision. I think every business leader should write that on their whiteboard and ask themselves that question. When they're leading, is the room safe right now? If you're at an all hands meeting, a sales meeting, you're talking to your folks. Is the room safe right now? What is safe?

Safe means like the people that are sitting in that room feel safe, opening their mouth. they feel safe communicating and saying what's on their mind. Maybe even to disagree. Even to disagree, right? Do they feel like that what they do next is going to result in a positive outcome? And if they don't, they're not coming. They're not going to take any action or move forward in a way that you just said yourself, I want them to love it as much as I do, right?

So I believe the bridging has to happen by creating what are the metrics that I need for all of us. And I think it is. Do we all feel safe in this team? do we all feel connected and do we have a vision that we share? And until you're at that point, you know, you got work to do. And then the way you bridge is old school interpersonal communication. You know, and you build that trust when risk is low. It can't just be once a year you go do an offsite and go, okay, we're going to be a team now.

It doesn't work that way. And Jock said the same thing on his interview. Absolutely. You cannot build it, you know, casually. It has to be deliberate. it. And I think the leader has to be willing to pull off her armor and show her scars for the service of the team. Man, it's amazing that the people who are probably professing this message, I mean, it's you and it's people like Jocko. David Goggins is very similar. Absolutely.

And it's like the people who are sending out this message of take off the armor and actually show who you actually are are people that epitomize strength. They are the special ops, right? And it's to a degree the last people we would expect to talk on vulnerability or connectedness, but it sounds like it's because you've seen the effectiveness of it and you've seen how much it's needed. Yeah, absolutely. I've seen it save lives. I've seen it achieve strategic outcomes that I never thought possible.

That village that I was talking about, you know, the village program. When we started that in 2010, we had six villages, 75 peasant farmers. And in less than 18 months, we were in 113 villages with 30. 32,000 farmers endorsed by President Karzai and President Obama and funded by Congress for $500 million. Now, that's a transaction. And it was all built one story at a time, one action at a time, one rooftop at a time, through human connection. And, you know, I look back on it now and I have no idea how we did that. And I look, and I scratch my head and I'm like, how is that even possible?

But I've seen it again and again and again. I've replicated this in the civilian world. I've worked with businesses on it. Leaders are capable of it. But we have to make those human connections. Otherwise, we're doing it alone. We're dragging that sled on our own. And when times get hard, you're going to look around and your team's going to be fractured.

And it's going to be very hard to fulfill on that vision. So you're filling a need of the team, but you're also fulfilling a need for yourself so that you don't end up isolated one day. You know, my dad has this saying. And he says that, you know, we should all try to leave tracks in this world. You know, and he's an old country boy from North Carolina. And he just believes that at the end of our life, it will be the tracks that we left in the earth that will be our greatest metric of how we lived. You know, the tracks, the things, those indelible impressions that didn't even serve the people around you, but the people who followed you. You know, I do believe that.

I think the most impactful leaders I've ever served with, the leaders who I would run through walls for, the leaders who, many of them didn't come home from war, they were the ones who believed in leaving those tracks, putting those impressions in the earth. to serve people that never even, you know, they would never even have that opportunity to meet. And it's a legacy thing. It's an impact thing. And I think our country needs that, regardless of whether you're a small business owner or Fortune 100 or a nonprofit, you know, what are your tracks? What's going to be left after you're gone? And I think if we all maybe thought a little bit more deeply about that, we would lead differently. I know you use the phrase at the beginning of this. And I know it's become a big hallmark for everything that you do today. The phrase is the generosity of scars. Yeah. And it's related to what

other people need. So can you explain what that means? And then I'd also like you to teach on the difference between a good scar and a great scar. Okay. So, you know, rooftop leadership is how I lead, inspiring people to go up on the rooftop and take action, not because they have to, it because they choose to through human connection. But the rocket fuel that I believe as a leader for me, that has allowed me to do that both in combat and here at home is what I call the generosity of scars. And it is the repurposing of one's struggle in the service of other people. So recognizing that we all go through struggle, we all go through dark times, we have things that happen to us that embarrass us, that scuff us up, that are very unpleasant. And some of them are of our

own doing. Some of them were cast upon us, you know, but we all, we all have them. We all have those scars, those marks on the soul, you know, that only we know about or whatever. And I've come to believe that, you know, an authentic leader who values relevance and relatability as a way to own a room leads with those scars, shares those scars in the service of other people, right? And using story, right, the stories of our scars. I define a good scar story as a story that you don't want to tell other people. Which we all have those. We all have those.

And I believe a great scar story is the one you don't want to tell yourself. And there's a time and place. Just like you said, we can't, you know, we're not going to go into a dumping or therapy session as a CEO or a business owner. But if we had the courage to look at our own life and look at our own journey and pull those stories out and share them in the service of others, what I found is what, happens is other people are in those places. You know, they're afraid. They lack trust. They're disengaged. They lack purpose. And they're looking for a leader. They're hungry for a leader who walks up, takes off the armor and says, this is who I am, this is where I've been, and this happened, and this is why I lead the way I do. And when that happens, we listen autobiographically.

We locate ourselves in the safety of that person's narrative and we step into it. And reciprocity starts to happen. And we start to feel a bond and a connection that is deeper than anything you can do in a PowerPoint deck. And that's how you build. And if you look at the leaders around you, the ones that you would follow literally through a brick wall, that's what they do. Yeah. It's bizarre that we're having this conversation right now. I think it was probably about a month, month and a half ago that I was. was sitting down for what was going to be a pretty intense conversation with one of our leaders

here. And I was nervous about it. It dealt a lot with the future. And there were some big decisions that were going to be made out of this conversation. And walked in and the leader sat down. We ate a meal first. And then the leader just looked at me and said, I was thinking about you. And I realized it might be pretty intimidating to come in here and have this conversation. And so I felt as though, before we talk about you, I felt as though it would be good for me to share something about me that not a lot of people know. And I'd like to just share that with you. And I will tell you the stress melted. Exactly.

But it's like I didn't know what was happening in that moment, but you just put words to it. They were sharing a scar and it was emotional for them. They were sharing a scar. And in doing so, they made themselves into a person that was worthy of trust. And I will follow that person. Oh my gosh, I will follow that person. It's what you're talking about. And that's why I go back to relatability instead of vulnerability. That person said, okay, how can I be relatable to Alex right now? Am I relatable to Alex? Nope. Okay, what can I do? All right. I'm going to share a story of where I got scuffed up that brings his emotional temperature down. He locates himself in my story and he sees that we're in the same place right now as we have this conversation. He knows where I'm coming from. And now, he's relatable. And guess what? He's relevant to you. He's relevant to your pain and he's relevant to your dreams. And you'd follow him anywhere. You said it yourself. And isn't that the metric we're all looking for as leaders? Scott, I think maybe more than any conversation we've recorded recently,

certainly that I've been a part of, you're probably pushing a lot of people out of their comfort right now, which I know that probably pipes you up more than anything. It does. Probably. Here's what I want or no, if you're sitting across the table from someone that listens to this podcast and they're having a cup of coffee with you. And they're like, Scott, I agree with everything you're saying. I just don't know if I've got it. I want to be that type of leader. I want to be that type of person. I believe in a culture of connectedness. I believe that people need this. I just don't know if I'm your guy or if I'm the man or woman that's able to do that. What would you tell that person? You know, I would tell that person that I believe in my heart of hearts that our maker put us on this earth to do something bigger than ourselves.

And if we don't try to figure out what that is and honor that, then I think we are dishonoring what we were put here to do. And we're almost spitting in the face of that. I think that if we surrender to what society tells us we're supposed to be and we diminish ourselves in the face. of what, you know, everything else is going on around us, then I think that last breath is going to be a shallow one. And I don't want that for any human being. I've seen it. And I don't ever want to see it again because we all deserve to take a deep breath at the end

of our lives. And we deserve to do the things we were put here to do. And they are going to be scary. That's just, that's the nature of being in the arena. You know, I would tell them to go reread Teddy Roosevelt's the arena speech. Yes, came into that. And remind ourselves of who we are. You know, we are meaning seeking emotional, social creatures.

We're going to be afraid. We're going to feel fear. But there are things in our kit bag that we can reach into that have kept us going for years. We just got to get back to the basics. We've got to be present. We've got to actively listen. We've got to be able to tell stories to communicate to people and bring their emotional temperature down and value connection. Put connection, put the relationship before the transaction.

If just that, just that, serve a purpose bigger than yourself and put the relationship before the transaction. Just those two things. And watch what happens. And you might find that maybe it's not as scary as you think. And that when you build a team like that, then it's a lot less scary. And you can build it when the sun's shining. You don't have to wait for the storm clouds. Well, Scott, thank you for your service to our country.

Thank you for your time today. Thank you for your commitment to owning your story, to telling your story. and to putting the relationship before the transaction. We appreciate you. That's my honor. Thanks for having me, Alex. I'm so grateful for Scott's boldness in sharing his story. And I'm so grateful for the example of leadership that he gives all of us to own our scars

and leverage them so that others may benefit. And I love that action item that he gave all of us to go read the man in the arena speech from Teddy Roosevelt. So we felt it would be fitting to close the podcast out. in just that way. So here it is the man in the arena originally delivered by President Teddy Roosevelt. It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs, who comes short again and again because there is no effort without error and shortcoming.

but who does actually strive to do the deeds, who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. Well, I hope that the big takeaway for you from Scott's conversation, but also that speech from Teddy Roosevelt, is that if you are a leader, your role is not that of a spectator. It's to get in the arena and not just to get in the arena, but to stay in the arena and do the hard work every single day that it takes to impact other people's lives. And hey, one of the things that we talked about a lot with Scott was the power of unity and connection within a team. Unity is so important within a team because when a team is unified, you maximize efficiency and effectiveness of every team member.

But there's some enemies. There's some habits that can absolutely destroy unity within your organization. So our team created a resource that really details what these enemies of unity are and helps you. you as a leader create an action plan for how you're going to make sure they don't exist within your culture and within your organization. So if you want to get this free resource, text the word enemies to 3344. Again, it's the word enemies to 33444 or just click the link that's in the show notes. Well, I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Entree Leadership podcast. If you did, please give us a five-star review and tell your friends to subscribe.

For a chance to win our $25, Amazon gift card, you can review this episode by clicking the link that's in the show notes. And be sure to follow us on social media at Entree Leadership. This episode was produced by Tim Hull, and it was edited and mixed by Will Rutter. I'm Alex Judd, and on behalf of the entire Entree Leadership team, thanks for listening. We'll talk with you again very soon. If you enjoy this podcast, you should check out other great podcasts from the Ramsey Network, like The Ramsey Show. We want you to take control of your life and money once and for all. I'm Dave Ramsey.

And along with my co-hosts on The Ramsey Show, we'll give you straight talk on everything from budgets to career to relationships. Join us as callers from all walks of life, learn how to get out of debt, and start building for the future and how you can too. Listen to the Ramsey Show, wherever you listen to podcasts.