EntreLeadership - #362: Answering the Call of Holy Work with Luke LeFevre

Episode Date: February 17, 2020

What do you picture when you hear the word creatives? Starving artists? Tortured poets? Graphic designers? Musicians? Well, guess what: Ramsey Solutions Chief Creative Officer Luke LeFevre would argue that business owners and leaders like you fall into the category of creatives as well. Just like a hero’s call to adventure, you have your own call—to create something. Listen as Luke discusses the seven stages that movers and makers experience when they answer the call to create what he describes as “holy work.”   entreleadership.com/podcast #345: The War of Art (and Business) with Steven Pressfield Night by Elie Wiesel The Dave Ramsey Show podcast #331: How to Accomplish Impossible Goals with Art Williams Holy Work resource from Luke LeFevre Review this episode for a chance to win a $25 Amazon gift card   Want expert help with your business question? Call 844-944-1070 and leave a message or send an email to [e-mail]. You could be featured on a future podcast episode! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Here at Entree Leadership, we believe that people were created to do work that matters, work that contributes, work that adds value, work that creates. But as daily tasks, responsibilities, and problems inevitably pile up, it's really easy to replace creating with reacting. And as a result, we can all find ourselves unable to find meaning in what feels mundane. From the Ramsey Network, this is the Entree Leadership podcast where we help business leaders grow themselves, their teams, and their I'm your host Alex Judd, and today's conversation is with our chief creative officer, Luke Lefevre. He's a part of our operating board and leads a team of over 150 people. And over the past several years, he's walked through a process personally that has helped him uncover principles which make up the creative center of great work.

Work that is set apart. Work that is meaningful. Work that is holy. The first five words of this ancient book called Genesis. which, you know, was written a long time ago, 2,500 years before Christ was even around. Like, that was when it was collected based off of these stories that were orally transmitted for thousands of years before that.

And the first five words of this ancient book are in the beginning, God created. And then, you know, creatives, yeah, great. Creatives love that. But then it gets to humans and it says, hey, let's make them. in our image. The only thing we know about our, which God says, let us make them in our image, our image, the only thing we know about his image is that he was a creator. That's the only piece of evidence you have up to that point in this old ancient book. And so that's the beginning. And then later, as this creation happens and man pushes against it,

rebels, God's plan to be with people is distorted. He then starts the slow process of pulling people back to him, and eventually he finds this character, and I'm going to mess up how to say his name. So listeners, please help me. I think it's Betzelel, ultimately. I always say Bezalel, and I think I'm messing it up. But eventually, yeah, Bzelel or something like that. Bzal in Exodus 31, it says, I've filled him with the divine spirit to create many things. Like I could look it up here. God filled him with the spirit of God in wisdom and understanding and knowledge and in all manner of workmanship to design artistic works, to work in gold and silver and bronze and cutting jewels for setting and carving wood and to work in all manner of workmanship.

Okay, great. Thanks for the Bible lesson again. But really, this guy, Bazelel, was creating a place for God. to dwell with us on the earth again. Yeah, that was his assignment. That was his assignment. And if this commentary in the Bible I was reading, it says, the first person the Bible mentions as being filled with the spirit was this guy.

And I read that a couple years ago, and I was like, what? How do I now know that as a person who's been working for a long time? I think work, why is work inherently creative? Yes. Because we are made in as human. we are made in God's image. What we know about God's image is that he was a creator, and he wants to manifest his ideas through us like he did with this Bezalo guy.

And like, that's just like really profound. And I think that work, that stuff we have inside us that we want to make or perform or build or teach or organize or whatever has been in there since before we were born. And I think it's because we are made in God's image to create. I think so often, especially today, it's really easy to get wrapped up in that word creative and think that that's a musician, that's an artist, that's a painter. Maybe that's a graphic designer, maybe depending if they're good or not. Right, right. But it sounds like you're broadening the scope of what is creative work.

100%. When I was five years old, I went to my aunt's house in the summer. and we had a week long we stayed with her and I had to go to her church and I was at her church and there was a drawing contest and at church it was like draw Noah's Ark so I drew Noah's Ark and I'm like I don't know you just draw draw the arc throw a couple animals on there turn it in well there's no big deal to me I saw it in my head drew the picture turned it in well the teacher was like putting them up on the board and I'm like oh mine's pretty good you know I just remember thinking that and then the next kids looked like a banana And the next kids look like, you know, something else. And I was just sitting there thinking, like, holy cat, I just might win this thing. I just drew the arc. And I did. I ended up winning.

And it wasn't like, oh, good, someone's recognized my talent. It was, huh, I don't know. I just saw the arc. So I drew the arc. Well, the other kids didn't do that. And I was talking to another friend of mine, and he was like, I remember being pretty young and sitting in a pizza hut. And I saw that the pizza cost 1099. And I asked my dad how much the pizza cost.

And he goes, oh, $1.99. And this friend, he goes, business. He understood it cost $2 to make it. And they charge 10, so that's how you make money. How old? He was like seven. Okay. So as a seven-year-old, he was understanding the concept of profit margin.

Exactly. I never had those thoughts. You were just figuring out of drop boat. Yeah, that's right. So the thing in me was to draw, like, I could just see things. I could connect dots. I could do that stuff. his was this business thing.

I have other examples like my brother-in-law, Brent, huge entree fan, has been through a lot of our stuff. He's always since, as long as I can remember, been the guy who ran the sound, did the video,

had the CDs when he was a kid. Like he recorded all the movies, you know, when you could record movies on VHS and three movies on one six-hour tape. He was just, he's always just been drawn to this video technology side of things.

And I think it's because that is God's gift to each of us, and they're all different. But it's all made in his image, which is to create, because I think that thing we're drawn to, whether it's business, organization, drawing, speaking, whatever it is, that is the creation God wants to create with you. Yeah. That's amazing. So, I mean, it's almost like what you're talking about is like, as kids, we are creative. Yes. We, collective we, everyone that's listening to this, everyone on the planet, we are creative. And then, the thing that pulls us away from that is all these layers that we put on top of ourselves. But what you're saying is that at our core, there is something creative inside of us.

100%. I don't know what it is for each person. It's different. But my wife, we homeschool, we got four kids. She, when she was little, she remembers setting up all her dolls in the basement. And she was in front of these dolls. And she was teaching on a whiteboard. And she was probably five years old. And now she loves it. And there's this slow pull towards that thing that has been. been in you since before you were born, I think. And there's, there's relationships that squash it. There's parents that squash it or encourage it. There's just lots of reasons why you believe it or don't believe it. But I think there is a pull towards something that has been in there since before you were born and that is the creative. So it almost seems like the way we can properly maximize our role in the present is to recognize that there is a piece of us that is creative that is

demanded to be effective here? I think so. I don't know if it's demanded. I think you can deny it. I think you can let fear or ignoring it or who am I to do that, cover it up, or years of pushing it away or things like that that can cause you not to use it. There are people I know who haven't followed this thing. And they're lazy or they don't do something with it. And so it might be a little bit sad. It's sad. It is sad. If you don't use the thing, it's really sad because you're not doing the gift.

I think I believe that God wants to make this stuff with us. And he's like hoping we do, you know, giving us opportunities to do it. So is owning a small business inherently creative work? I think 100%. Depends on how you got into it, but I think there is a pull towards this thing. The people I talked to, I did an entree mentoring session at the last EMS, and I was talking to this guy, I'm blanking on his name, but he ran an ambulance company, an independent ambulance company. And I was like, so why did you start it? And he was like, oh, I don't know, just something to do.

And I'm like, no, come on. There are way cheaper and easier the ways to just find something to do. Yeah, right. And he goes, well, I worked at one of these places, and it was just not a great experience. I just wanted to do something different. And I'm like, okay. But what about the ambulance thing that, why are you drawn to that? It's not just, well, I didn't like the way that they did it.

And he was like, I just love helping people. I just love helping people. And he gets to do it. like people in their most hardest time of need. And that's the real root. I bet you he's always been a sweet kid who was a helper when he was a kid. And that's the poll. And if you are, oftentimes I think, and I don't have data, I don't have, you know, spreadsheets and stuff.

If you aren't working in that thing that you've been drawn to, that's where anxiety comes. That's where depression comes. That's where that sadness comes that you were just talking about. Like if you can't express somehow that. thing. That's where you get stuck in alcoholism or addictions and things like that. I think because you're trying to squash or quiet this feeling that's been inside of you. And escape reality. Escape. That's a great word for it. Yeah. I love this because I think we're just laying the framework and the foundation for kind of the categories and really the pillars of what you've defined in your own

story. But I think I'd love, and I printed it out, I'd love for you to read and give us the context around it to the quote from Stephen Pressfield, who's been on this podcast before, and we'll post the link to that episode in the show notes too. But give us the context behind it first and then explain to us why this stood out so much to you. All right. The context for this was this last year has been strange. It's been a strange year for you personally. For me personally, but a lot of us, like, we're trying to take this company, Ramsey Solutions, to the next 30, 50 years. And really, I think we're growing a ton, but there's also a lot of the enemy does not want this to happen. There is a lot of resistance.

And this last year was weird for me, and there were points with which I felt, like, stuck. Like, what am I supposed to push on next? And in August, it was funny, I read Pressfield's new book, and he was here like two weeks later. So I made sure to come down and sit in the booth and listen to the whole thing. But I'm reading page 16 of his new book called The Artist's Journey. And it says, have you ever met someone who says, I have no passion for anything. I wish I could feel it, but I can't.

The only thing I feel is boredom. He goes, bullshit. I know this is a lie because I lived it for years. Show me someone who claims he doesn't give a shit, and I'll show you a born artist who is scared out of his wits to become that artist. Our subject is sitting right in front of us, but we can't see it because we're terrified. And when you ask someone what they were drawn to as a little kid,

they often discount it. They are like, I don't know, I just liked something. speakers and had that all figured out in my room, but they think it's just nothing. But it's been right in front of them their whole life. And it scares them to think that, oh, there just might be something there. How did that convict you? Oh, man. I have been a creative by career for 20 years now. And I've also been in bands. So design, writing songs, but then bands, and then working here, making stuff for Ramsey, always making things. But what it convicted me is a write all the time. So a write to the team. We have a big creative team here, sometimes write out on blogs and things

like that. But I have a lot of writing in there. And I was just like, what do I, what do I do with this? And so when I read this back in August, it was after a period of, I want to write something. I want to write something that says all this stuff that I'm learning about and feeling. And so it inspired something there, but I still didn't know what. I still didn't know what it was. It was just like, what do I do with this? And Christmas break, my wife had this idea to write our highlights from the year before and our goals for the next year. And we just put it on a little five by three note card, put it in our stocking, and then we read it the next year. That's awesome. And so the last couple of years, I pull it out and one of them, you know, of course, lose 20 pounds. And then the

But the next one is, I'm going to write this book. I tried to write a novel when I was a little kid and tried to do that. And then this year it happened again. I pulled this thing out. And it was like, I'm going to get this thing out, whatever it is. And I was just like, man, I didn't do it again. But what am I, what am I trying to say? And honestly, I felt this little nudge that, hey, what if you just gathered up a lot of the writing you've done over this past 10 years to the team?

and it all has to do with creative and work and, you know, all this kind of stuff. And so I did that over Christmas break and I gathered up all this writing and it came to like 47,000 words. Oh, my word. All this writing. This is stuff that you've done in the course of the decade. Right, yeah, lots of stuff. And then a lot of it over the last five years as I've started to lead bigger teams and things like that. And so I gathered it all up, put it in a big word doc.

And I was just like, oh, okay. Well, then I had this nudge, like, what am I going to do with? I can't just hit print on this thing. That doesn't make any sense. So I got out note cards and I categorized everything. Okay. And I spread them all out and I started to say, okay, that one's kind of about this and that one's kind of about this and that one's kind of about this. And as I collected it and looked at it, it seemed like there were seven groups that started to come up.

And I was like, okay. Seven categories? Yeah, these seven categories that sort of came out from this 10 years of stuff. And the first one was about this poll that we've kind of been talking about, like this pull inside that I think we all have. Like, as an artist, as a creative, that's my filter. The more people I meet, they all have something in there that they've wanted to do or they're drawn to. Well, in the word you used earlier talking about your friend with the pizza ad and talking about you at drawing, it wasn't you liked doing those things. It was you loved doing those things.

And I don't even know if you recognize it as love. It's just you see it. You're drawn to it. It's just something that is, it flows and it's not difficult. And it just clicks in your brain. And I think there's a poll. towards that stuff. So the first section, the first group of writing was about this pull. The second was what I've just recently started calling the proof, which is kind of the proof that God put that

pull there. So that was the proof. The third thing was the practices. So journaling has been a huge part of my life. I've even, I've even think I've talked about it on the Entree podcast before, but the practice of getting up and seeking that creator, God first in our lives, leads you to get some kind of vision from him. But the practice, how can we be thought leaders? Like our brand is a thought leadership brand. We're wanting to change things. But how can we be thought leaders if we never get quiet enough to have a thought?

If you just get up late, you rush to work, you sit down and get into the meeting, how can you possibly be ready and handle what you need to handle if you haven't spent time with God or if you don't even believe that, some kind of quiet to get your mind right. Yeah, and I would even expand that just to say leader period. Exactly. Like if you don't take the time to have the thought and get wisdom from somewhere other than yourself, then what are you leading people towards? You can't.

Exactly. We're going to run through these in depth as well, but we said the practices and then what's after that? The pull, the proof, the practices, and once you get some kind of vision from God, that's where what I call the war happens. There's a resistance. Pressfield talks about that in the war of art. Everything, every good endeavor is going to get some resistance. You know, all of a sudden, your tire gets flat. All of a sudden, you hurt your ankle and you can't go for that run. All of a sudden, these things happen that are the war against, and you have to choose to fight through them. So that's the war. Then, once you do choose to fight through,

then you feel fear. Who am I to say this? Who am I to do this? So the pull, the proof, the practices, the war, the fear, and once you fight through all that, then there's this wilderness. That's where you just got to show up and do the interview and do the work, do the design, draw the picture, do the talk, show up, make the widget at your business. And it could take 10 years.

It could take 20 years. is you just got to show up and perfect the craft. And slowly but surely, let that pull continue to pull you towards the thing you're going to eventually land on. So that's the wilderness. And finally, you do hit some sort of permission to do. And in fact, it's necessary to do this thing. Like if you really believe that God put it there, you're seeking him first, you're fighting through the wilderness and the fear and the war, you will eventually be released to do the thing.

and you'll feel free and anxiety kind of goes away. And not always, like, it's not a magic pill or anything because it takes years and years and years. But eventually you're like, oh, no, I can follow this path since I was four years old. And now I'm embracing it. And you sort of get this permission to embrace it that kind of happens. I love that. Those are those seven things that all the writing I gathered had something to do with these things. And I've been affectionately calling that the path to what I think is holy work.

and I think when we're all working in that vein, that's where the world changes. I love the process through which you came to those seven categories because I can almost introspectively put myself in that process as well. And that like as you're describing the categories, I can think back and I bet our business owners can as well where it's like, yeah, I saw that show up in my life. And probably so many of them, this process, whether they knew it or not, they walked through to start their business. Exactly.

They had to have felt a pool. You already identified that. There was absolutely proof. Otherwise, they wouldn't have done it. Certainly, they faced a war in wilderness. And they may be somewhere in the middle of all that. I'll tell you, the group of people that I thought this maybe most would resonate with is the business owners that we work with every single day, they started a business kind of to feed their family, to feed themselves. And probably because they couldn't work for anyone else because they wanted to be.

be their own boss, right? And they wanted the freedom associate with that. It's almost like you can see the same look in their eye every single time on the mastermind where they have this realization moment where it's like, I'm here. Yeah. I did it. And now what? And they have no clue. But there's almost like this gnawing sense that there's got to be something else there. Yeah. And that's why they're listening to all these podcasts or reading all these books or coinciding with Entree leadership. And they're so interested in this. And they're like, what do I do because this is uncharted territory. I built a business. I thought that was the thing. So my first question is, do these seven things that we're going to walk through, apply to those people, and then really kick us off at the pull? I think it does. So they had some kind of pull towards making something and whether it was the freedom they were looking for by starting this thing. And now that they've got it and they're like, now what? Now I would try to connect what they're doing. every day with the parts that have been inside of them since they were little. Were they the connector? Did they connect people?

Were they the accountant? Like, I don't know what it is for each person, but there's something now where, okay, they made their business. Now, where is the unique thing that only they can do, the thing they can't help but do? It's time to start embracing that part of the business. And you can offload the admin work or you can offload the, Offload the billing or maybe that is your thing you can't help but do. Like, it's time to embrace that and own it.

And that's where I think you start to hit the groove and really become that creative person that only you can do. It almost demands a little bit of discontent. Is that fair to say? Well, I've been wrestling with that because it sounds like that. It sounds like that. But if I don't think we're meant to find a job in settling. into it. I'm a nine on the enigram, so sloth is the sin. And so I have a tendency to be like just wanting to escape and turn it off. So they don't have to do anything. But ultimately, God is trying

to redeem the world and turn it back into his original vision. And he needs us to do it. I think he put this pull in, which causes us to feel discontent. Yeah. And it's not discontent with what he's given us. Like there's gratefulness there. There's all that stuff. But why else do we continue to make stuff? Why else do we try to hit the quarterly goals? Why else do we do this? And why do we see beauty in creation? Yeah. We see that something is created that didn't exist yesterday, that now exists today, and there's something in our soul that lights up. Yeah, right. And so I I think it's inherent that we work. But if you're just clocking in and clocking out of somewhere, that's not it. Of course you want to stop that. And I know that a lot of people that do that,

they're not content. They know there's something more. And they need to acknowledge it in their guts and follow that thing because then ultimately it'll be more than clocking in and clocking out and getting a paycheck. It'll be like, oh, no, this is why I'm on the planet. You know, that's what I want for people. We were having this conversation today. It was a small business owner. I think her business was in Oklahoma. And the conversation kind of led us, and it was honestly a lot because I had been reading your work and reading your thinking that we kind of got to this point where I told her, I was like, you have earned the opportunity to think bigger, right? Like, you have built a business that works. Congratulations. Nine out of ten people can't do that.

And now so you've earned the opportunity to think bigger. And so she's going through this process of, okay, how do I identify what that poll is? It sounds like you're saying, go back to what you were when you were a kid. But then how do I know if it's correct? I've been calling them guidepost. So for me, that first thing was the drawing, the Noah's Ark drawing. Okay, cool. I didn't love drawing, I was just kind of good at it. So I'm a creative director now, but that doesn't just mean drawing. It's story. It's emotion. It's moving people with emotion to action. So connecting with people. It's connecting dots. It's all that stuff. So thinking profit margins and product and opportunity. I have a hard time with that. But yeah. No, but the creative side of it,

honestly, for me, isn't, I don't think profit margins and I don't think. I think, I think, I think, how can I make somebody feel something so that they change their behavior, so that they move. So the drawing wasn't it, but there were other guideposts. There's this band you might have heard of called Pearl Jam. Oh, yeah. Just a little bit. One of my favorite bands, but reason being is I got my 1988 dark blue Jimmy when I turned 16. And one of the first CDs I put in there was Pearl Jam's first record called 10. And I grew up, little Christian school, Christian college, like, self-expression wasn't always the first thing on everybody's brain, but I got in this car and I turned up this music and there was this dude raging, you know, and these huge guitar solos. And I didn't really know

what I was feeling, but I knew he was saying it and I felt it. And so this emotion that he created in the other night, so my son Grayson is starting basketball. He's 10. And he's an introvert, very engineering-brained, creative engineering brain, like memorizes 50 moves for a kata and karate, right? He's got it, and he's fantastic. He can tell he's pushing himself by getting into basketball. He says basketball is like doing 10 kattas at the same time while someone's throwing a ball at you. Like his brain does this.

Yeah, he said that thing. So we get in the car and it's very extroverted sport. It's like, give me the ball. You know, it's like run and go and grab the ball and kind of thing. And I can tell we got in the car afterwards, and he's just like shaking, but enjoyed it, but also very difficult. And I was like, hey, buddy, you want to talk about it? Nope. Okay.

So we just start driving. Well, he grabs my phone, and we've been listening to this song a lot, and he unlocks it, and he pushes play on Pearl Jam's song alive. Oh, cool as 10-year-old ever for the record. He hits play, and we start on the drive home, full blast listening to this song. And it's just, I'm still a little. live. You know, it's just raging. And then huge guitar solo.

And I asked him at the end, I was like, did he put to words what you're feeling? And he's like, yes. And I'm like, I know, right? You get me. Yeah. So I get in this car as a 16-year-old and listen to this music. And I'm like, that dude is putting towards what I feel in my gut. And I want more of it.

And I want to do that for people. Yeah. There was another book I read called Knight by Eli Weisel. Yeah. It's about concentration. camp person. And he was just writing these stories and saying how he felt. And I read it as a junior in high school. And I don't have it here. I wish I did. I wish I could remember the quote. But he did the same thing. The words he used to describe how he was feeling as he met these mentors in

his life was what I was feeling. And I was like, I want to do that. I want to cause that in people. And so you take, okay, I could just see drawings. I could connect dots. This emotion was some something different than any other thing. I didn't think about math like that. I didn't think about anything like that. Words, emotion, drawing. My job now is words, emotion, and design. There are guideposts that pull you,

and if you go back and you look at the things that you're drawn to, and somebody might be like, oh, no, it's not. You might just look over Pearl Jam. It might just be a song you liked. But there are things that matter more to you than they do other people, and those are some things that I think you're drawn to. And I would look for guideposts along your journey. Well, it's interesting. We see this all the time that the people that come to Entree Leadership Master Series, they don't just want to run a business. They want to run a business like Dave Ramsey.

Yeah. And it's because he's like there's something that he does that, yes, it has a little bit to do with his massive personality, but it's more just like there's something inside me that connects with that way of doing business. And I want to be more like that. And so maybe even a little bit of who your role models are, that can be part of the polls. Absolutely. Absolutely. He did the same thing. When I first heard about Dave, I had over the years gotten into debt. I've got the car payment. I knew I shouldn't have sat there and signed those papers. I felt it in my spirit. But I didn't know about Ramsey.

I didn't know about any of this stuff. And then eventually, me and my wife, she was out one night and I pulled all the credit cards in that we had. And it was like 10 credit cards and $13,000. And I was like, we're paying this stuff off. And we did it, right? Well, then a year or two later, I hit play on his podcast. I come across Dave's podcast. I knew better.

Oh my gosh. He put two words what I felt in my gut. He's Pearl Jam of the Finance World. He's Pearl Jam of the Finance World. Yes, exactly. Like, sometimes he put two words what I was feeling, and I wanted to do more of that. I was drawn to those things.

And so following those guideposts is something you should go back and look at. That's valuable. So we've got the poll, and then we touched a little bit on the proof. But I love the practices because it's where we make this thing that's inside of us that feels ethereal and maybe a little bit ambiguous and we start to put action to it. So you specifically highlighted journaling in the beginning. I think journaling is one of those things that everyone loves the idea of. So explain to us what your process is for journaling and what it does for you. Yeah. It goes back to a story. I grew up, like I said, a little Christian school

and it was always called a quiet time or something like that. And I was never good at them. it didn't work and in 2010 my wife and I were going through a really tough time and I was out running and I was just ready to do something drastic like to figure out I was even thinking of the big D word and when I was I was running you know how your head gets clear when you're running and I was having these thoughts and I'm just crying honestly about it and I was just done. I was like something's got to change. I'm not, you know, all these lies are coming through my head.

And I just felt as I was running this smack almost that just said, be still and know that I'm God. Okay? So I went home. I didn't do anything drastic. I just was like, God, was that you? Was that what they talk about? And if it was, okay, here's what I can do. I'm going to get up early and I'm just going to read one chapter of the Bible and I'm going to write what I actually think about it.

It wasn't, I'm going to start journaling now. It wasn't that. It was, I'm going to start writing what I actually think. Not what my pastor wants to hear, not what I think my dad wants to hear, not what anybody around me wants to hear. I'm not trying to impress anyone. I'm going to tell God the truth and then let it play out. I don't have to show anybody. So I just started doing that. I'd get up early.

And this was 2010. I'd get up early. I'd read a chapter. And I would write what I think. Whether it was like, this doesn't make any sense. Or why did you do this? Or like, I was just honest. And so it was three times a week, four times a week.

And I did it for five years. Wow. A stack of journals starts showing up. And this was probably 2015 at that point where I was just, telling the truth of what I thought. To this notebook. Yeah, this notebook. And I'd write,

Good morning, father at the beginning. And then at the end, I'd write, please be my guide and teacher. And I wouldn't judge it. I just unloaded whatever was going on upstairs, you know, in my brain. I just started writing.

I'm frustrated here. I'm annoyed with this. I don't like this. And it was almost the process of just getting through the cloud of thought. Like if we can get, get through the cloud of all the things that are bothering us. And it took years. I did it for five years. Then eventually, something changed. And I started writing. I moved to Evernote on my computer

versus the journal. But what happened was is I would wake up and I'd just be like, okay, I'm reading that. And hey, I got this problem at work today. And boy, I connected that with this book I read. And these ideas started to come. But it was still seeking him first. And the ideas were filtered through him. And then sometimes during the day, I'd get this nudge, hey, you need to say what you were thinking this morning to so-and-so. Why don't you, what it did is it started to get me quiet enough to hear his voice. Yeah. I know not everybody's a believer that listens, but this is what happened.

And so throughout the day, I started to have these ideas and I'd share the ideas. They were coming from the quiet, the writing in the morning. So I'd get to work. Or then I was able to access it. at work even. I'd be like, hey, I just need to sit down and think this through and I'd just start typing and what I felt would come out. And then I'd be able to talk about it. Let's pretend you don't do this. Yeah. And you don't have that discipline of journaling. You are still confronted with situations with people every single day. And I bet you what comes out

is not the incredible thoughts that you had where you were journaling. What comes out in that situation is the cloud. Dallas Willard calls it the epidermal level of thought. So it's like, your skin layer, if you're not having silent solitude journaling time to get through that epidermal layer, it will come out later. You're absolutely right. And you won't know how you feel, so you will just be reacting. And that's where we get in trouble. Like, I've not had time to process this through. So how do I feel about this thing? Something happens? Reaction. But what happens is your brain, over time, starts to process differently because you're starting your day not with alarm, coffee, loud, gas, car and horns, and like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but, but,

instead you're saying, hey, brain. Yeah, and soul and human being. Exactly. Let's wake up. What are we doing today? Let's seek that creator who made us in his image to see what he wants for today. man, I think, I mean, is it bold enough to say like every leader should be doing some version of that? Because I don't know how you can lead if you don't.

Because people are depending on you. I, I 100% agree. I am sure there are leaders out there who have somehow got through it. I can't. Like, I can't just show up and off the cuff. Sometimes I can now because the habit is built in. And if there was a late dinner the night before or something, you know, but majority of the time, If we're going to really be leading in the front, we have to be setting aside time to think, to journal, to deal with our souls. You're absolutely right. So good. Okay. So we've got the pull, the proof, the practices. Let's go ahead and jump to the war. And I know that you already referenced Stephen Pressfield. And we really, we did a whole episode with him on the War of Art. That's just fantastic. But I love how you set the expectation that it's going to be a war.

because that connotes that there's going to be an enemy. Yeah. So lay out for us, what is the enemy? I think there is an enemy who doesn't want you to do this thing that God put there. I think if we are really made in his image and he has something he wants to create with us, there is an enemy who wants the opposite. He would be super satisfied with your business is staying status quo. Hey, no, you don't need to get up and seek him.

Like, just get up. Take the shower, do the thing. You're fine. You're fine. The war comes with, I know there's something more. There has to be more than this. I've got something inside of me. I've got to get out. The war comes when, I don't know, I'll just hit the snooze thing again. Or you can feel the war on the driving home when it happens to me, and I hate that it happens to me. Driving home, I should get my wife flowers. What's on my phone? You know, let's play the next song. all of a sudden I'm home walking in and I didn't get the flowers. Yeah. Our relationship could be better. I have that feeling that I want it to be better.

Let me get her flowers. And immediately all of a sudden I forgot about it. There is a war that doesn't want your relationship to be better. Everyone's experienced it with running or exercise. You're like, I don't want to. And so how do you overcome the war? You put your shoes out. You sleep in your shorts.

I don't know what the things are. Like, when you have the thought of getting the flowers, just do it. Now I'm going to do that tonight on the way home. Any good endeavor, that's Pressfield's thing, any good endeavor to get better abs to create something, anything that makes the world a better place and expresses this stuff, has resistance. So easy to go home and eat the donuts. It's so easy just to order a pizza. You're not going to find resistance. Yeah.

Yeah, no kidding. No kidding. That's right. Go for it. Yeah. Those are small-scale things. Imagine your life is a huge story. Yeah.

The amount of war you don't even know you've lost to. Like, you don't even know it. And so when you start to look at it like this, like, what is pushing back on me? You start to recognize these kind of things. When you realize life is not neutral. No. Right. Right.

Like if I hit pause right now with my life and don't take any action to grow this thing, I'm not just going to stay where I am. I'm going to atrophy. Atrophy. It's exactly what you're talking about. Okay, so then we get to the fear. Whenever I read your take on fear, I thought of an Elon Musk quote that I heard the other day, which you never know where you're going to land with Elon Musk quotes, kind of frankly.

But he equated starting a business. He said, starting a business is like eating glass and staring into the abyss of death. Like, I think that might be the best possible description of fear, right? And what it feels like to actually step out and start anything or do something. or do something different or reinvent yourself as a leader. So when you get into that stage, what does that mean and what do you do? Think of a hard conversation you have to have with somebody. I heard this today.

It's from, I think, we bought a zoo. Matt Damon says, 20 seconds of insane courage will serve you. I'm going to mess up the quote. We'll serve you for years to come. So there's that, who am I to say this? or I can't do this, so-and-so is going to think this, that first time you, you could be anything from first time you take charge of your six people team and you have to have a staff meeting.

Yeah. And you're like, they are going to know that I don't know what I'm doing. So what? You got to do it anyway. You got to have the meeting and screw it up and try it. You're like, oh, I'm not like Dave or, you know, these kind of things. But if you do it, and then you do it again next week, and then you do it again, You start to beat it.

You start to beat the fear. But then you'll just get new ones. Yeah, that's right. It's all the time. Like, it's all the time. So what do you do? You just got to do it. You just got to do it.

And the words of Art Williams, and do it and do it and do it. It's Christy Wright and say, you got to do it scared, you know? Yeah, that's good. It's true. You just have to do it. So even if it doesn't work,

even if the meeting's a failure, if you have the poll, you know I've got to do it. this thing because I'm trying to make something better. You still got to do it. Yeah. It's interesting. I think a lot of people that write kind of a journey-oriented concept that equates to life

would end at this point and say like, okay, once you surpass that fear, then you get to the destination. And it sounds like that has not been your experience. And it's almost like, okay, once I get through the fear, then I get rewarded with wilderness. That's a great point. So why wilderness? I also don't know if these are sequential. I think they are to an extent, but I think they're all overlapping each other and it's all the time.

But the wilderness comes when I know there's something in here. I know that I have to chase this thing. I got to let this pull take me. The wilderness is I'm going to show up and come to the meeting again. Like you have to keep showing up. Some people get off the train. They don't stick to the job. They don't keep going.

My first couple years of work, I worked at a tiny little design agency. I knew, like, I was putting logos on pens and doing brochures and figuring out website stuff. I hated it. I hated it. I did not like it. But it was at least in the direction of some kind of creative expression of some sort, you know. If I would have quit then and gone to. be something else that wasn't some sort of thing, guidepost follow sort of thing. I don't know what

would have happened. So I stayed there a couple years. I went to the next job. I didn't love that one either, but it was a little bit better, a little bit better clients. If I would have quit, if I wouldn't have shown up, if I wouldn't have done the hard work of learning in design, this software and making hundreds of brochures and setting the files and saving them and naming them correctly and like all this stuff that I had to figure out, it set the foundation to be able to do other things. And I don't know what that is for each person, but if you're bouncing around to thing to thing

to try to get out of it, that's what I mean by wilderness. Sometimes you've got to show up and you're like, is this it? Like, when I was in it, I wasn't like, oh, good, I'm at least in the creative field. I wasn't. I was like, is this right?

What is this? This sucks. You know, I did not like it. I wanted out of it and I belly ached about it. And but I'm glad I didn't quit. Yes. I'm glad I didn't quit. And I showed up and I sought God eventually, not the whole time.

And once I did start seeking him to an extent, what I felt some of the nudges were, I was like, hey, no, you need to embrace what I've given you. Embrace this, rock this thing. Then we can talk about what's next. Yeah. I was bell-yaking and moaning about these jobs. Mandy, my wife, she knows all about it. Like I'd come home, this isn't what I'm supposed to be doing.

There has to be more. But I wasn't embracing them or doing my best at them. Once I did that, I was like, okay, what if I made the best sprinkler brochure ever, you know, the best sum pump brochure? Like, these are true stories. But it's almost like a feeling that it's like I'm not allowed to hit the eject button yet. No. And it's almost because it's like this work that I don't love, it's doing something to me that needs to be done right now. And if you eject, now, there are time.

to eject if it was abusive boss situation, stuff like that. Yeah. But if there's not another plan to go towards or something, like I didn't feel like God was like, no, you can quit, you can move on. It wasn't there. It would have been ejection. It would have been escape. And that's not what we need to do here.

Man, I wasn't going to bring this up, but just what you just said made me think of this situation. We had a business owner. She was on a mastermind the other day. and she was she was absolutely I mean just beside herself with this group of other business owners and they asked her what was going on and she said big corporation just offered to buy our business and they were like well how much are they offering you and it was millions of dollars and they're like this is awesome congrats and she just was struggling to make the decision and what she said

is I just don't feel like I can leave this thing yet. And it's what you're talking about. It's like I don't feel like I can eject yet. It's still doing its work on me to a degree. Yeah. I mean, is that the wilderness? It's part of it. I don't know what her story was.

Yeah. There is a, I think if you're really listening, you can tell when it's time to move to the next thing or when it's not. And sometimes when you force it, that's where you're like banging your head on the table. But if you let the pole pull you and you don't eject. before you feel released, that's because you're building a foundation and you're going to get led to the next thing and you're going to get led to the next thing. That's where your Malcolm Gladwell's 10,000 hours thing.

Like, I'm sure the Beatles didn't love playing the covers for six hours a night every night. I'm sure it sounds great and glamorous right now, but I'm sure their fingers were bleeding and they didn't love smelling like smoke all the time or whatever the story is, but they showed up. They didn't quit. And that's the wilderness. and it feels like a wilderness because it's psychologically mind melting. Yes. Because it's not like, oh, good, I'm in the wilderness.

It could be 20 years. It could be. It could be 20 years. And you can be like, is this it? And, you know, seek him first and seek guidance and spend that time journaling and figuring out what is in your brain that needs to get out. But sometimes it takes a long time. But, man, I want to be sitting on my porch someday when I'm, 80 years old and being like, holy cow, that was a good story.

Like, I didn't quit. And I fought and I wrestled and I had that gnawing in my gut that drove me crazy. But I didn't eject and go work at the cabana in Jamaica or something, which sounds fantastic sometimes, you know? That's right. I didn't do that. I stayed in the battle, you know. That's good. So we get to permission then.

And it sounds like permission is also very much a feeling or it's just a sense of knowing. So explain to us what that looks like. And then what do we do with it? Hmm. There's a picture that I found of myself as a seven-year-old. And I'm on this ladder, like the top rung. You know, like if my kids were on that top ladder, I'd be like, oh, what are you doing? And right below is my grandma.

And she's just staring at me. And my grandma was this lady, like, you don't tell her no. She's very dominant lady. I love her so much. But if she said do something, you do it. Yeah. And you don't question it. You get up on the ladder.

And this picture is like, I'm reached out super far trying to get this pair. And I can just hear her saying, well, go on. Get up there. I can just hear it. By looking at the picture, you can hear her voice. Just her body language. Go on. Get up there.

Get that thing. And looking back, I'm like, I feel like, she's. She's a great metaphor for God. Like, he had me. She has me. If I fell, my grandpa or her would have caught me. She wanted me to grab that pair. And I think once you feel that pull, you acknowledge that pull, you go back and you dig

around to the things you liked and you were drawn to. You start to believe that it was put there for a purpose by our creator. You then start practicing, seeking him throughout the process. He will guide. you start practicing. You'll hit the war, you'll hit the fear, you'll go through the wilderness, but eventually you'll get some small bits of clarity. And you'll be like, oh, my goodness, like, okay.

And you'll start to get that permission to say the thing out loud, that you've sort of been working around for 20 years. You'll start to feel like, oh, no. Like, when I say that, something happens in people. When I make that thing, something happens when I write that or whatever that, when I organize is that when I actually own my voice and say the thing that I've been thinking, you get some sort of validation sometimes. And that's that permission. And I think over time, it takes a long time, you will get that permission to do the thing that has been in there the whole time if you follow this path.

And I like the word necessary. You'll find even that it's necessary. Like you can't not do it eventually, you know? And that's where you're like, oh, no, that's where the permission comes. me and my wife we always talk about I I look for emotional permission sometimes like as a nine I'm like oh is it okay with you and is it okay with you and blah blah blah and she's like I give you emotional permission like go out tonight or whatever the thing is and I'm I just you feel free yeah and it's that same kind of thing like eventually I felt this thing for so long I've worked this

field for so long eventually it'll be like go do it go say it go be it you know that's that permission and I don't know when each person feels it you know I don't know how old you have to be and I think this cycle probably works on a small scale all the time and then medium scale at the same time and then a whole scale of your whole life another time but from my journey and that writing that I pulled together over these last 10 years those were the things that that kind of came to the top of it I love that it's compounding and we're all in the middle of it at some certain stage. Final question for you before we go. This could very easily be laid out as a path for work. Yeah. But you lay it out as a path for holy work. So why that distinction?

Me personally, I think there's something better for the world. That's what I think. And I think if we are following that pull that was put there from before we were born by the creator of the universe, when we work through this we seek him through it we fight through the war we get over our fear we work and learn through the wilderness and we finally let go and do the thing that's where I really think you're creating something that was only in God's mind before and he wants you to do that so that he can continue to make this world better like what was the I think Martin Luther King says the moral arc of the universe bend towards good. And when we do this, it's not just work to clock in and clock out of.

It's not just work to make a paycheck. It's holy work. It's work that is set apart. Holy is something set apart is something different. It's not for money. It's not for a paycheck. It's something more. It's something holy.

I think the thing that maybe even amplifies it is that everything that you've talked about today is the example of your holy work. Like I'm a believer and I think many in our audience will agree that this is a message that God gave to you and he's choosing you to give this message. So thank you for sharing with me. Thank you for sharing with our audience today. We're super grateful for your time. Love being here. If you're like me, you spend a lot of that conversation thinking about, okay, which of these categories am I falling into right now? But also how could I leverage this framework to help the people

around me. And we wanted to make sure that you had something tangible and visual that you could look back to with regard to this episode. So we asked Luke if he wouldn't mind taking these seven categories and just creating a one pager that outlines what are the things you should be looking for in each of these areas. And he did just that. So we wanted to share this resource with you, the podcast audience. If you want to get that Holy Work PDF, text Holy Work to 33444. Again, that's holy work, all one word, no spaces, to 33444, or just click the link that's in the show notes. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Entree Leadership podcast. If you did, please give us a five-star review and tell your friends to subscribe.

For a chance to win a $25, Amazon gift card, you can review this episode by clicking the link that's in the show notes. And be sure to follow us on social media at Entree Leadership. This episode was produced by Tim Hull, and it was edited and mixed by Will Rutter. I'm Alex Judd, and on behalf of the Intrater. entire Entree leadership team. Thanks for listening. We'll talk with you again very soon.

If you enjoy this podcast, you should check out other great podcasts from the Ramsey Network, like Borrowed Future. Not so fun fact. America has a $1.6 trillion student loan crisis, and it's out of control. I'm George Camel, host of the Borrowed Future podcast, where we uncover the underbelly of the student loan industry and show you what you can do about it. It'll inspire you to see that it is possible to a problem. avoid student loans and graduate college debt-free. Listen to borrowed future wherever you listen to podcasts.